Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

I know that the U.S. has an aging population- and love to see and hear older anchors  on T.V. and radio. India has more youth, and there's a tussle between the generations, even stronger than before.

How is it in your country? In your daily life?
 
Do younger generations in your family , workplace or other groups, look to you for help, advice, companionship?

Can younger people learn from our experience; or is it not relevant to their life? Unlike earlier societies, the tempo of change is extremely rapid.  There is little of what we learned in school and college that is relevant now. New facts, ideas, discoveries.
“How many planets in the solar system?” Even that fact has changed.

We now learn from people regardless of their age. Older generations prided themselves in staying consistent and therefore pillars of society.

 Today, to have that role, we need to keep changing and learning. I love it! [Specially when I can show a 20 year-old how to write HTML , or use browser options to disable scripting!!!]

What do you do, to be able to converse meaningfully to youngsters today?

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Children are a part of my daily life. At ages 47 and 50, I gave birth to sons now 6 and 3, my second family. I have a daughter who is 34 and we have employed a relief elder care worker (to relieve the live-in niece) who is 18 years old. So, I have lots of opportunity to experience younger people. I really give it very little thought. I am just myself, I don't work at it.

I also have 2 younger people in their twenties who I mentor spiritually and they in turn teach me because I find many of the younger people are more advanced at a younger age spiritually. But they choose me more than I accepted them, the acceptance of them was easy. For 30+ years, I have noticed very young children uttering the most amazing things, very spiritual things, seemingly without awareness of the profound nature of their utterings.

Experience is always relevant but it is earned over time. Young people compensate with fearless enthusiasm for life. The mistakes provide the experience. What is learned in school can never prepare anyone for the future but there is a place for advanced learning in the sciences and mathematics. The basics there are never totally obsolete, though the understandings are expanded upon and corrected.

What do I do to converse meaningfully with youngsters? - respect them and their opinions. I think my best secret of success, as it were, is not feeling my own age. Therefore, my age is irrelevant, except I can wait until the next life to be young again, no desire to turn back the clock in me.

All the best,

Deborah

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Sharing our experience gives perspective to people younger as well as older. I think that's a large part of the reason for sharing them here.

I like what you said, Deb-“Experience is always relevant but it is earned over time.”

In a way, it doesn't really matter whether you are 50+ or <50; it does help to know what people older than us are thankful they did; and what they regret they did or did not do.  I know that helped me a lot when I had kids, is that I had spent a lot of time with friends my age who already had theirs. Their experiences helped me so much!

That is usually a time, in pre-school child-rearing years, that in India at least, moms were pretty isolated from others. There wasn't much discussion about rearing kids. It was considered a natural thing [read 'can't improve upon what one knows or does not naturally know']. As I didn't have kids, I'd spend a lot of time with my friends, and I think they would've benefited from this interaction too.

Now as I'm growing older, I would love to know what 60 year-olds go through; what they've learned from having gone through the changes of being 50. Though people's lives are not all the same [can't imagine being a mom at 50, Deb! Great, I'd say; but not for me.]; there can be much we can learn.

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

A lot in my zaadz  friends list are quite young some teenage, my partner is 13 yrs younger than I am and we are still good together after 10 years. Someone called me a neo hippie today not bad for a 67 year old grandma of 13, LOL. Well I am not into drugs -  but I am an environmentalist - activist, spiritual,  , politically aware activist, liberal, organic vegetarian, a recycler , freecycler, peacenik etc besides being a poet.  At 67 my life is full and fun and respectful of others and the planet and I wouldn't change it - probably am a neo hippie. LOL
My advice is don't worry about getting old just enjoy it as a gift that not everyone is fortunate enough to receive. Treat younger folk with respect and they will happily befriend us.

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Zephyr, you are truly a breath of fresh air, and an inspiration! Were you always this way?
I agree abt not worrying about getting older. In my case, it's because I'm feeling lighter. How was it for you?

Re: Older/Elder? [Are we relevant to youngsters? ]

I realize as I woke this morning [a fertile thought -downloading time for me], that what I was asking here is: as we are growing older; are we feeling that we are taking an Elder role among those around us?

Do people come to to you for advice? Mentoring? Healing?  I remember all the elders in my life; the ones who have passed, and the ones who are still here. I can still ask a question in silence or words; and get a response.

An Elder is different from a teacher. Everyone around us is a teacher. Some are older, and others  younger than us. Some can be our age. . Many wise, expanded beings are coming in fully awake. They are teachers of the inner life; but not all can help with the outer life.

An Elder would be able to help us navigate the outer and inner life. Is this a role you see for yourself? Do you have Elders in your life?

Re: Older/Elder? [Are we relevant to youngsters? ]

I find that more people are mostly materially oriented and they do not have much time to devote to anything else. Not only youngsters but even adults too. They visit temples and modern preachers only for the development of their material benefits and not for their spiritual development. Few exceptional cases can be found.
my father, my wife's grand father , my son  and a niece of mine offered me books read by them to be read by me and even they dicussed about religion and spiritualism. 

Re: Older/Elder? [Are we relevant to youngsters? ]

I often find that those who are outwardly materialistic, may not be so inwardly.
If we think that the same divine light shines in every creature; then all it means is, that outwardly materialistic people are covered in veils that hides that light. As we go within and see them with our own inner light, we see nothing but that!

There is a saying in HIndi- “na jaanay kiss vaysh mayn narayan mill jayen”–“Who knows in what disguise we will find God.”

That is what I remind myself when I feel people are not interested in spiritual subjects. The less they seem to be interested, the deeper I have to go within,  wondering why I can't see their light.

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

I think we simply have to be what we are,and be the best example we can muster, rather than preach.  The young, even the very young are not fools, they see beyond any face we show them and know immediately if we do not practice what we preach. If they ask what
the secret to our contentment / happiness is, or what we believe, that is the time to share
when they want to learn, even so it's important to remember that humanity is evolving they will hopefully take what they find useful from us and exceed our achievements, blazing a path to the future when they will be the example to inspire the next generation.Whether we are relevant or not depends -  we can be an example of  what the young aspire to or what 
they reject. When I was young I worked with the elderly. I remember one that I aspired to be like - he was 92 full of fun and though physically frail, still interested enough in life to write history books. Another, an elderly lady bemoaned what she regretted not doing in life, I determined to take life by the horns and hopefully at least I would know I gave it my best shot. So the young learn from our sucesses and our failures.

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

“So the young learn from our sucesses and our failures.”

So true, Zephyr! I find that many grown-ups in earlier generations would judge kids and find them lacking in seriousness or whatever. Yet they could not answer questions about rituals or stories that they told them about their culture. “Just do what we are saying”, they'd say.

This does not serve the purpose of true spiritual growth or maturity. It's like passing on half-digested food to the next generation; and this is how knowledge becomes superstition.

To be relevant to others, specially youngsters whom we think we can teach or pass on knowledge or experience, we've to show them that we feel joyful, happy, successful, strong.

Who would want to learn from someone who is judgmental and bitter or lacking in in-depth understanding?

As always it's up to us to be what we'd like youngsters to be.

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

We are relevant to youngsters if we take the time to be in their worlds, ask questions and listen to their answers, tell them (short) stories and listen to theirs.  Show some interest - and excitement for their life adventures.  They need smiles and confidence from us.

I think that young people get used to adults not caring about them and they assume that we are all self-centered.  So they seek from us what they can get.  For most most parents, it is easier for kids to get money, borrow a car, etc.  What they really want is interest in their lives, and respect for their autonomy.  If we aren't willing to give that, then we aren't relevant - and they are probably correct to ignore us.

Peace,

Earon

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Adults often feel that they need to teach kids, guide them and so on. What we forget, is that we need to listen to them.

Using our outer and inner hearing, listening to their words and intent, what they really need; and then, just filling in what is required. Children too, listen better when they have asked for what you are giving.  I guess that's the same whether the listener is an adult or a child!

Earon, how interesting you found this: “I think that young people get used to adults not caring about them and they assume that we are all self-centered. ” Specially as adults seem to feel we are sacrificing for kids!

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

I am spending Christmas with my wife, their adult 4 children and some grandchildren……already..its wonderful…though I was not biological father  of the children..Being in the postion of not beeing father…..I have a fresh view of inter-generational dynamics in a very< special way.

Its not the age in the passport that counts basically. Yes, this is one aspect. I know that the degree of personal realizations…responsibility….power and freedom (beyond the mere householder role as it was in ancient times )is decisive.

It can be even a fire a normal family cannot stand. It was no coincidence that in pre-modern India four stages of life developed in a soecific sequence. Spiritual liberation was  -if ever started- the last one.

Now all can be combined at any time. Listening to Youngsters is one thing. A relevant one. To teach and educate the, another one. The most fiery and relevant aspect for me is leading in consciousness. Beyond all generational issues. Therefore many spiritual terachers ask their students to consider very, very carefeul whether to marriage or not. 

Nietzsche even said:

Leibniz, Kant, Schopenhauer – were unmarried. One could not even imagine them married. “A married philosopher belongs in comedy, that is my proposition – and as for that exception, Socrates – the malicious Socrates, it would seem, married ironically, just to demonstrate this proposition” (On the Genealogy of Morals, Third Essay, section 7

Partially true, partially . To grow into advanced stages of life requires very, very specific considerations. Even chossing the teacher: Sri Aurobindo said: You should think about marriage 10 times. You should think about choosing your spiritual teacher at least 100 times!

Therefore, one more important point in communication with others, no matter of younger or older ones: Now what you say. But you have realized. Where your center of gravity is. That can create real fire. Decide whether you can stand the heat in the kitchen. …

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Albert, how wonderful to enjoy your family for the holidays.
I enjoyed your take on the 4 stages of life- we have a thread on that too.
As to being a philosopher, monk-philosopher or householder, there is a story that goes through my mind often:

Monk, very learned, very obedient, with an enlightened master [perhaps the Buddha]: Master, look at these pathetic householders. Why do they come to you with worldly problems? Can't they see the wonders that you can open them to? Why don't they ask you about your experience? Even to be in  your presence is elevating. What they seek is dross to your gold.
The Teacher: xxxx, the life of these householders is not to be seen on the surface. Look deep within…what do you see?
The monk was amazed to find a complex of images that showed deep transformations, links to community and unexplained patterns. He knew that his own lifetimes had been full of learning,study, metaphysics, many lives as a monk or learned one and teacher in his own right. What had been missing, was nurturing.

He realized what was being asked of him by his teacher. Bowing reverently, he said:
“Master, I realize I am to take birth as a householder. I can see the darkness whence I will be cast. I know that wherever I may be, I will always see the light.”

And so it was. Is it the philosopher-intellectual who needs the experience of the householder, or the other way around. Probably both, actually. One experiences at an abstract level what the other lives out in the dense material-emotional-social level. Both reach the light; but I doubt they can do that without the experiences of each kind of lifetime.

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Exactly. Thats why Jewish tradition focuses explicitly more than Asian traditions-with all differences too -on Family and its values. And I say: Classic renunciation CAN take place in household circunstance. its probably complex, complicated and confusing. Ask Andrew Cohen and his students:):)

The more hidden issue is: Can authentic spiritual practice in advanced stages of life -leading to what cal third tier - happen in household context?. How do contemporary spiritual communities deal with education of children and adolescents? With real responsibility and accountibility ?

And both -resonsibility and accountibility for practicing at the edge: Even practicing partnership between men and women is highly demanding. I renunciation necessary?

Each of these questions in itself is most challenging. Not to mention integration in complex global situations.  Therefore what will happen to Zaadz, with Zaadz in the next years is so exciting as journey into unchartered waters. it did never happen before this way….

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

This is a juicy conversation, Meenkashi, Albert.  I've done a lot ot thinking about the difference between renunciation/monkhood and living life within a family unit.  Wayne Teasdale's book, A Monk in the World, is a nice guide, as well as teachings in the Himalayan tradition.  Brother Wayne was a renunciate in two traditions and I see his monasticism as his own form of family life, something that worked well for him, sheltered by a monastic tradition and yet open to the world. 

I believe that monasticism is partially a function of population pressures - somewhere for physically, emotionally and/or spiritually abandoned children to take refuge at times when creating even more lives is unwise.  (It is ironic to see the Catholic Church as the ultimate birth control, removing our best and brightest individuals from the gene pool, but perhaps it has always been a family where non-heterosexual men and women could take refuge.)

And then there are the traditions in which there is no monastic life, where spirituality is fully integrated into, and based in, family life.   Judaism and many native traditions fall into this category.  As for Protestant Traditions, they are just a few hundred years old and perhaps too young to have grappled fully with these issues, which have taken the Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and other traditions thousands of years to evolve.  For many Protestant Christians, there is a very deep sense of groundlessness and lack of cultural history, which may account for the draw of fundamentalism, especially since their origin was in the Catholic Church, with a monasticism the Protestants rejected.

Back to youngsters.  What I did as my kids were growing up, was to be involved with whatever they were involved with.  I encouraged all of their interests, especially the mindful ones, but even the video games, etc.  As they became teenagers, they needed their own (somewhat) separate interests, so I was less involved - but just as supportive.  I coached little league and basketball until they started high school.  What I noticed was that most parents completely dropped out of their teenagers lives and left them to be raised by their peer group.  The parents took advantage of the kics teenage years to focus on themselves - to do what they wanted to do - partying more - traveling more.  So, in many families, it became parallel play between the teenagers drinking and the parents drinking, both manifesting short-term thinking and indulgence.

I'm making these observations not to judge people or groups, but to explore along with you.  What do you think about what is going on within the various monastic and nonmonastic traditions?

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Earon, you can't stop now! “What I noticed was that most parents completely dropped out of their teenagers lives and left them to be raised by their peer group” Please say some more—you stopped yourself short, feeling you may have been judgmental. Far from it; I really want to know what you think and opine about this.


Monastic life—I think it is easy to live like a monk within a family; as long as we are willing not to follow tradition. It can rile up relatives and friends; but it is possible. What's really difficult is to be a family person; being a monk…not so tough!

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Meenakshi:  Earon, you can't stop now! “What I noticed was that most parents completely dropped out of their teenagers lives and left them to be raised by their peer group” Please say some more-you stopped yourself short, feeling you may have been judgmental. Far from it; I really want to know what you think and opine about this.

Well, I believe that many parents withdraw from their children just when they are most needed - when they are in high school.  Parents feel that they have sacrificed tremendously for their children and that their children should repay them by being grateful and by working hard and being successful.  Yet, the children do not yet know what they want - and don't know the difference between what people and family expect of them - as opposed to what they expect of themselves.  

Caught in this uncomfortable alienation, they may turn excessively  to drinking, drugs and sexual conquest out of frustration.  When the parents become hedonistic themselves, including gross consumerist behavior, drinking, extravagant vacations, etc., this is particularly confusing and entices kids into more materialistic, soul-denying endeavors.  Balanced, mindful parents provide healthy options as role models for their children.

Well, that's enough time on  this soap box.

Peace,

Earon

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? Parenting

This is really relevant to me, as I have almost-teen and almost-plus-teen kids! Thanks Earon. As I've raised kids in different countries, I've tried to absorb whatever felt good in different ways of bringing up kids.

This is what I experienced, and is by no means true for all:

I saw that in India, we tend to be less involved in our kids in  childhood as parents in the west. We'll take all the help we can get from grandparents, relatives, nannies or whatever. None of my friends would see any value in taking their kids to a playground. That was the preserve of nannies and babies. They were surprised that you “needed” books to raise children. Partly I agree, but not fully. Sometimes, to discover your instincts, you have to read all kinds of parenting advice!

There were no mother-child playgroups when I was alone in Mumbai  without grandparents, relatives, nannies, and it was a little lonely as few wanted to “disturb” or be disturbed by, a new mom and toddler. But I had my kids later than my friends, and had been in their daily lives, and learned a lot from them!

Coming to Dubai, I went happily into the mother and child playgroups, swim lessons, and so on. I loved the parent experience; and would marvel at how the western parents were even more involved in their kids than we were, taking them everywhere, moms literally dripping with kids as they went to pick up another! Indian dads usually feel that parenting is a mother's job, a teacher's job and a grandparents' job. So we tried to learn to be more involved in play - and not only in the child's studies.

When the child becomes a teen, the Indian dad gets involved and it may then be too late for a wam relationship, because the child perceives him as an authoritarian figure- interested in keeping him/her in their studies and away from fun. The western parents drop their kids into individuality- land: they can drive, date, decide for themselves what to do.

I am happy at what you have written; and even happier that we were able to learn from the experiences of many parents - Indian, American, British, French, Lebanese, Greek and Ecuadoran…and more!   We have tried to choose a path that keeps us involved, as much as the child asks for or seems to need. It requires closeness to children, as we've to intuit much of this.I feel blessed at the closeness of relationship with my children.

And the only seemingly-wise thing I'll say here, is : I always see the children [mine and their friends] as people who are going through childhood.
Not as “children” who need to be taught, but as great souls who need to be joyfully grounded on earth.
We have grown as our kids have grown. They guide us daily as we guide them. And that is how youngsters are relevant to us, and we to them.

And if we're lucky, we'll get tremendously Indian after all this, as Indian kids and parents are usually less independent of each other emotionally than western ones!!!

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Hello everyone! I am pleased to have found a very appropriate place to jump into your conversations! I came upon this group and asked to be invited in but I did not even read the title clearly enough to understand that the majority of you have lived at least 50 years in this life. I am not quite there yet, almost, but not quite! I am about to be 24 on the 6th. :) 

Re: Are we relevant to youngsters? How do you stay that way?

Taurusun, you show us– who have been discussing whether wisdom is related to age–, that once again, it is not, if we think of a younger vs older person; but yes, it is, when we think that you can only grow wiser than you are, with age!

I feel from what you have written, that perhaps it is as school subjects are: developing at an earlier age. Each generation is building up from the last. I remember thinking this once, and then letting the thought go because from a youngster, it seemed terribly conceited. But as a teacher and parent, I definitely see that our children are better and more improved “models” of us.

And sometimes, like the Jaguar, more rounded than their sleeker predecessors, and looking nothing like them!!!!


OK, not meaning to be flippant at all; from what you have shown, you turned your life around by deciding not to make the choices of fear that you saw your mother make. Through your life, she can get such solace!

I am going to link to this post in a way to showcase these conversations that we golden people [!!!] have with you youngsters who sometimes not only join the group, but choose to stay even after realizing they are not 50+. [I did point  that out, I hope, in my welcome letter to you?]