More on plug-in hybrids

http://www.calcars.org looks to be a good resource for factual information on plug-in hybrids.  And they have a slightly humorous cartoon here. 

Here's the next book I'm getting:

Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars that will Recharge America

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

How about adding photovoltaics as their primary source of energy?

Do the math.  Calculate how many rooftops of PV it takes to power one car.

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

Yeah, I understand that.  But it won't always be that way.  Solar technology ought to improve vastly over the next few years… that is, if we put effort into it.  My language was vague, but that was the idea I was attempting to convey.

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

Actually, ten years ago I built a PV car and raced it cross country from Indianapolis to Pike's Peak. The array was 3' by 8'. And the tech has only gotten better, and the prices will start to plummet in the next five years as we learn to culture silicon.

The car that won the race did not carry their array on board. They mounted it on an actuated stand that kept it pointed directly at the sun as it traveled across the sky throughout the day. This charged their battery bank. They inserted the interchangable battery bank ans off they went…traveling as the second bank charged. This gave them reduced weight and better aerodynamics (flexibe solar cells were beyond most team budgets).

The first bank would last them until nightfall. They'd camp for the night, at which point their chase vehicle would cach up to them and deliver the second bank for the morning run.

Best,
Ox

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

Sweet!

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

Matt, there's an article in the current issue of HomePower magazine that might interest you. It's about a couple that's driving a PV converted Volkswagon Rabbit (VoltsRabbit) off of their rooftop array
 
The article can be downloaded for free off the website as a pdf: www.homepower.com

Best,
Ox

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

Thanks!  I'll check it out :)

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

Using numbers from the article, (5 kwh/day) * (.148 $/kwh) / (.04 $/mile) = 18.5 miles/day.  The car's claimed range of 40-50 miles requires more than 2 days of sunlight.  Note that this is a family that doesn't do a whole lot of driving (5000 miles/year), but has to own 2 cars because of the range limitation of the electric car.  Also note that they do not count the opportunity cost of the capital tied up in two cars plus a PV system, capital that could be generating income instead of depreciating.

Wouldn't it be more practical to own just one car (the biodiesel Jetta) and sell the 5 kwh/day to the electric company?  They calculate annual fuel savings for the electric by comparing it with a 25mpg gasoline car, but they claim 40-45 mpg on biodiesel.  (A Prius gets 50-60 mpg.)

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

OK, cool.  So this is an EV that gets its electricity from the house's PV system and has a 40 - 50 mile range.  That's great!  Although, in the Who Killed the Electric Car movie, I seem to remember that there was a man (an older gent) who had a battery that could take the cars 150+ miles on a charge. 

Ox, do you know if it would be possible to put such a high-potent battery in a current hybrid model, so that if you wanted to, you could still go on long trips using the engine and get 50+ miles on a charge?  The batteries in the Prius+ are Lithium Ion and can take you 30 miles on a charge.  But the conversion cost (at least at my local HybridsPlus shop) is $32,000!  That's more than the car itself… yikes!  ($24,000 if you just want the 15-mile range).  So, do you have any less costly suggestions for a hybrid plug-in?  And, how quickly do you think these technologies (PV and EV) will improve over the next (say, 5) years?  And when will you be visiting Boulder, so we can sit down, over a cup of tea and talk about this kind of stuff?

:)
~M

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

Howdy Matt -

Firstly, I'll confess that I have not seen the movie, although I intend to do so. Until then, I'm not in the best position to address that individual circumstance.

My first question would be, are we sure it's a special battery that gives him the range, or has there been weight reduction work on the vehicle in question? The car I built a decade ago was ultralite…fiberglass frame, blow-molded poly windshield, motorcycle powertrain, etc. I also had the array on board…in an 8 foot n-gonal trail behind me…so I was only carrying one battery. That battery was the back-up plan. The vehicle was built to achieve the maximum amount of travel miles during the daylight duration…not for cargo, passengers, or any of the practical purposes for which we ordinarily drive.

Practical weight reduction is on the way…the Austrians have now figured out how to make foam aluminum with a uniform cell size. Corrosion proof, lightweight, eternally recyclable, impact absorbing car bodies will soon be revolutionized as a result.

If one is leaving the array elsewhere, we have to keep in mind the the beefier the battery, particularly a PV battery, the heavier it gets. For a vehicle application, you want a battery that can be swapped out quickly, by a single person, preferably light enough to keep a charged spare onboard. Until the day comes when you can pull into your local service station and do a 10 minute charge at 480V 3ph…something the home array owner will not accomplish without their own personal sub-station.

Now, for a cheaper, smaller footprint and less weight with comparable power, you could use a micro-hydro lead acid battery. But the trade-off there is the acid hazard and you also need to deep cycle it. Meaning you will have to discharge it at least 50% and charge it back up routinely…probably weekly. But for a vehicle use, draining the battery charge isn't hard.

One issue we have not talked about yet might have been working in favor of the guy in the movie…recovery of rotary motion. In other words, the spin of the flywheel and the waste from braking can also be fed back to the battery in the form of a trickle charge…lengthening it's use time.

But yes, there is no reason that you couldn't have a plug-in PV hybrid. The base technology that cuts over between the combustible engine and the electric motors is independent of where the charge comes from. It's more a matter of speed of recharge and the amount of power required to haul around the load…and hybrids are heavy vehicles by nature, because they have two separate mechanisms onboard to generate torque. That's redundant weight.

As for Boulder…I have no immediate plans to be near there. But I'm happy enough to continue our discussions in this forum. I'm only a click away.

Best,
Ox

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

In the movie, I'm pretty sure it was just the battery that he had, but I'll have to watch it again.  I don't remember all the specifics. 

Anyway, what do you think of this hypercapacitor's potential?

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

The short answer is that, anything that ZENN is interested in, I am interested in.

I think the article makes too much out of “difficulty to manufacture”. As a manufacturing engineer, I've done the operations they are describing. A certain level of attention must be paid to detail and to quality control, but there's nothing magic there.

There is a bottom  line, and that is that capacitors, by their nature, bleed down. That can be minimized, it can be slowed, but it can not be arrested. The progress they are making is worth following.

I am concerned about the energy storage and the chemical hazard. The article did not cover whatever mitigation might be in place to prevent this thing from just being a bomb on wheels, or to prevent toxic spillage in case of collision. I would have liked to have read more…but it's possible they haven't gotton that far yet.

It's worth noting that the present-day Toyota Prius stored enough power to light and heat about three city blocks for two days. There as initial concern about the safety of carrying around that much juice. Same basic argument.

Best,
Ox

Re: More on plug-in hybrids

So, you're a ZENN fan, eh?  OK, my question with their cars:  What's the deal with the FMVSS 500/CMVSS 500 regulations that require these types of cars to have a 25 mph top speed?  Again, referencing the WKTEC movie, GM's EV1 had a pretty fast top speed.  Why are the new EV's so slow?

(P.S. a little podding etiquette thing:  when replying to a comment, please click the “reply to post” link.  When replying to the first post in a thread, click the “reply to thread link.  This keeps the organization of the thread easier to follow when things get long.)

My Hybrid!

Ok, I got myself a Toyota Prius and I feel better already! :)
The nice thing about the car is that when you drive it - your first reaction is NOT ” so how much can this baby do?” It's more like - “How far can I possibly go on a tank. It looks like 900km per 45 litre tank… I haven't had it long enough yet. My 6 cyl Audi 2.4 got 400km on a 65 litre tank!

And then the toys! I love toys! For someone who gets lost as easily as I do Navigation is the coolest! And with Fourplay kicking on the 9 speaker JBL system! Lots of little compartments to store stuff in - and when you want the power, it's there! Very powerful for a 1500…

I'll also go for a fully alternative car as soon as it's available.

:( This country charges almost  R100 000 (almost  $15 000 ) more for the Prius as than they land it for. Vested Interests! Pah! Penalise those who are conscious of carbon emissions. I'm so tired of this mindset.

Re: My Hybrid!

On the subject of http://calcars.org/…
If you’d like to go a little more “alternative” sooner than later :) Enjoy!

Re: My Hybrid!

I was thinking the same thing, Julip!  Also, supposedly the next-generation Prius will get ~94mpg.  There's speculation that it will be a plug-in.  Then we have the Chevy Volt, which has officially entered the production pipeline.  But my personal favorite up-and-coming PHEV is Visionary Vehicles, which Malcolm Bricklin (the guy who brought Subaru to America) is working on.