The Shadow Knows!

I'm way out on a limb here because although I have lots of information crammed into my head I don't have the answers.  I have done some brief reading so that I don't sound like a total imbecile in this discussion, but if I sound ignorant please forgive my inadequate knowledge base!  I'm opening a door here and with my light will create many shadows, No?

Is the shadow that piece of us that says whoa when we sense something isn't quite right?  We identify with the scary side and it gives that burst of adrenaline.  I like that suspense of examining the wild things, the untamed, the chaos.  I've been told many times I'm a master at managing chaos.  I am both attached and detached to it. 

Re: The Shadow Knows!

Interesting interpretation of the Shadow Mistress.  I do think it can be that the shadow can inform your conscious self of other shadowy things, which would be quite useful and adaptivce.  While every archetype is initially foreign and alien to us, the goal of psychological development is to integrate them.  Hence, the shadow, or disowned, and for that matter, often despised, parts of yourself, become a part of you.  If indeed, it takes one to know one, then your shadow could inform you of other things that may be “dangerous,” or things that may appear dangerous.  From a pure Jungian perspective, of course, the shadow is just parts of ourselves that we need to integrate, become more conscious of, to become whole.  These are parts of oursleves that we should ultimately embrace, or else, we could become “dangerous” and actually dangerous, in various ways.   Xenophobia, or fear of the unkown and things that are different from us is considered a manifestation of shadow.  This explains racism and Hitler, etc…  Of course, and again, those things that we fear are really parts of ourselves. 

Another possible interpretaion of your idea of the Shadow, is an archtype-like part of the mind that could be called the Sentry, i.e., that part of us that searches for danger to protect us.  When the Sentry becomes too dominant, what do you get, paranoia.  To me, it makes sense that there is a function of the collective mind that looks out for danger.  At least it is very very easy to see how one would develop through evolution.  Simply put, creatures that didn't have a Sentry, would be eaten and not reproduce once digested.

With love all ways,

twice awakened Doug

Re: The Shadow Knows!

I love the shadow!  It helps me know when to say whoa.  I have fully integrated this into who I am.  The shadow helps me to keep myself in check.  I also like dancing with the shadow, it has great dance moves and helps me keep things in balance.  The shadow is the most interesting of the archtypes to me.  Paranoia is a nice addition to my personality I think.  The sentry of things is a run over kind of personality in my life.  I do what I want and that bastard just needs to deal.  I love you like my luggage dude, you are twice awakened and need not be eaten, just eat some great kosher dogs dude.

Re: The Shadow Knows!

This sounds pretty intellectual, which is fine in the intellect, but the Shadow is not there. The intellect is a light place. As far as an Archetype goes, if the Shadow comes to your door (like on Halloween), I imagine seeing a clearly outlined form of Nothing… not black, not swirling firey-ness, but nothing, a Hole in the World, and you'd need to be polite as you say “Hello”, even as the urine flows down your leg. You definitely want to stay at more than arm's length while you get acquainted because if you fall into the grip of the Shadow, you're FUCKED.

You definitely need to understand those parts of you that are in your shadow, but of course as soon as you recognize one it isn't part of the shadow anymore. As far as the Shadow is concerned, I'll do my best to keep it in some kind of magic circle… or rather keep myself in the magic circle, when the Shadow is at the door.

Re: The Shadow Knows!

The intellect contains shadow in my opinion. Take a look at Lucifer on wiki or google 4th Prince of the Dark. Bringer of Light - but what light with what intent? Magick or magic?

Protection from a) external shadow b) intrusive shadow forms and c) internal shadow are topics for threads in their own right.

Conversion of shadow to mature forms of intent is ‘power-ful’, but then why do we crave power?

What is the effect of love on shadow? How do we embrace and forgive the shadow without being swallowed? Or is annihilation our choice?

Xrisham

Re: The Shadow Knows!

I was taking it that as aspects of the shadow are brought into the intellect, into consciousness, those aspects are, by definition, no longer in the shadow

“Conversion of shadow to mature forms of intent is ‘power-ful’, but then why do we crave power?”

Do we?

“What is the effect of love on shadow? How do we embrace and forgive the shadow without being swallowed?”

These are two really good questions…

“Or is annihilation our choice?”

It remains to be seen…

Re: The Shadow Knows!

I think what you are describing is what I call, The Voice Which Must Be Obeyed. This is the voice which, every time I ignore it, I get in trouble, and if I pay attention I am ok. IF I don't need it it doesn't show, if it shows I NEED it and I'd better listen. It is distinctive and isn't mistaken for something else, like some personal need or wish looking for fulfillment. It has authority. I do not believe it is anything to do with what I understand as the Shadow.

Re: The Shadow Knows!

Hey Curmudgeon,

While there may be external evil in this world, the Jungian Shadow addresses the internal cut-off parts of ourselves that we dislike.  The way you have described shadow may be how it is symbolized in mythic literature and dreams, i.e., as an evil black hole.  Hence, when it comes to our own Shadow, there is nothing to fear but ourselves, which, in an ultimate sense, is sort of silly.  By separating off these parts of ourselves through symbolic, magical, and other means, we are actually giving them power outside of our awareness.  By not owning our Shadow, we are at risk of projecting it outward onto others, viewing them as negative or evil, and perpetrating against them.  So, embrace your shadow, and perhaps save your “Sentry” or “Voice  Which Must Be Obeyed” for those who have little awareness of their Shadow and other metaphysical forms of evil. 

So, a good question may be, how do we differentiate our shadow projection from actual evil and other's shadow projection.  Really, this only applies to those parts of our Shadows that are “evil” or threatening, not those that are otherwise distasteful as may be the case for some who do not own their vulnerability, arrogance, etc…  Jung suggested that when we experience negativity, e.g., disgust, dislike, hate, for another, we ask ourselves how we feel about the same feature in ourselves.  An honest answer, in many cases, will help to integrate the shadow, and help you see the other you previously disliked in more realistic terms, with a greater capacity to care and even Love them.

All in One (has a new meaning here),

twice awakened Doug

Re: The Shadow Knows!

Hmmm, well, sorry I may have caused some confusion. I tried to be pretty specific using upper case S for the Archetypal Shadow, and lower-case s for the little bits of nastiness in our personal shadows.

Now I believe you are mistaken if you truly believe that “there is nothing to fear but ourselves, which, in an ultimate sense, is sort of silly.” When I said that if we meet the Shadow we'd better be polite even if the urine is running down our leg from abject terror, I was only being partly poetic.

Let's take an example which may show why I see a problem, not to say danger, in glib intellectual discussions of the Shadow. In Rwanda (for instance) I suggest that those who committed atrocities such as mutilations of children with machetes, were ordinary laborers or school teachers, or auto mechanics. Perhaps not deeply in touch with themselves, but ordinary. Something happened within their society and within their psyches and they fell into the grip of some aspect of the Shadow which enabled them to commit horrible acts they never would have dreamed of before. Now if that is not piss-in-your-pants frightening I am not sure what is.

What is true of those other people over there is also true of us over here.There was a study using college students screened to ensure ordinariness, where some were designated prisoners, and others were designated guards. The experiment had to be halted because the nice, well-adjusted selected-for-their-niceness kids were becoming submissive and subservient — the prisoners — and sadistic and cruel — the guards, after just a few days. (I don't recall the details, but I believe someone made a movie about it, and I remember it being brought up in connection with Abu Ghraib)

“While there may be external evil in this world, the Jungian Shadow addresses the internal cut-off parts of ourselves that we dislike.”

But Doug, the “external evil in this world” is just someone else's uncontrolled shadow, isn't it? This is serious shit. My image was meant to symbolize the power and danger of the Archetype which can make you just as crazy as believing you are Jesus, but instead of psychiatric help you might get life in the slammer. I guess when people talk about embracing the shadow I hope they realize that there is the shadow and there is the Shadow (though it seems like you have used them interchangeably). I guess I think people ought to take seriously the repeated warnings of the mystics and the alchemists about madness and Jung's talk of possession by an archetype.

I would never, for a moment consider the Voice Which Must Be Obeyed to be anything but a help, totally unconnected from whether or not I have “embraced my shadow”. When I say that it has been important I am not talking about obvious choices about doing/not doing, I am talking about reading gestalt and finding my way through difficult passages where ignoring the Voice might not be a problem for a significant period of time, when whamo, not paying attention bears its bitter fruit.

You are right about the connection between not owning the shadow and perpetrating against others, thus the Rwanda example. However, when we are up against it where will we find ourselves? Here the subject becomes related to the subject of Apocalypse. Let us say that the shit hits the fan: global climate change and global energy depletion leads to famine in even the industrialized nations. Those of us who are working hard to grow our own food in something resembling 19th century conditions, may have to face the question of what to do when the neighbors who have not prepared show up and you only have enough food for yourself, and your kid who showed up unexpectedly with two undernourished grandkids… and he/she didn't come with food as you had specified was important because they were fleeing marauders… so what do you do when the neighbors show up demanding food? What if you have been forced to flee by bands better armed than yourself. Do you steal food? Do you shoot someone trying to steal from you? Do these sound unrealistic, not to someone living in Darfur. These are issues confronting people as we speak in parts of our world. People who are sophisticated, moral and psychologically aware, may find themselves facing the most visceral questions, questions they can't avoid by moving to a better neighborhood.

Spiritual and psychological questions dealing with the core of who we are must withstand the fire or we are lost. There is nothing casual about it. It is my belief that within our lifetimes (and I am almost 60) we may well be dealing with widespread societal breakdowns, and if we do not possess ourselves of every scrap of courage, skill, and self-knowing, available to us, we will be swept away by the fury.

So, while we cannot let ourselves become consumed with visions of doom, we really have no time to lose in our striving to be as real as possible with ourselves (most of all) and each other, and discerning the substance from the bullshit.

Re: The Shadow Knows!

Curmudgeon,

I see we are mostly in agreement regarding the shadow and I am sorry if I misunderstood what you wrote.  Certainly we both understand that human atrocities are manifestations of shadow.  Thanks for following up and providing clarity and ongoing dicussion.  Regarding “nothing to fear but ourselves,” here is what I said, “Hence, when it comes to our own Shadow, there is nothing to fear but ourselves, which, in an ultimate sense, is sort of silly,” clearly I specify “our own Shadow.”  Then I went on to discuss the issue of other people's shadows.  I now get your poetic reference, and indeed being “polite,” despite fear, is a good approach to helping to integrate the shadow. 
No doubt, there is no archetype that should be taken lightly.  At the same time, it is my experience, that as people are in process of learning about themselves and archetypes, they enjoy expanding on ideas that are like pseudo-archetypes, lesser archetypes, sometimes stereotypes, etc…  Awareness of these archetype-like phenomena can be instructive.  I hope, as you have done, the deeper quality of archetypes is communicated on this Pod, while we explore these other phenomena and have some fun.  Don't forget the Trickster, and his manifestation in Clown. 

That said, I find your distinction between shadow with small “s” and Shadow with capital “S” very interesting and would like to hear more about this difference.  As you may know, on the Individual blog, I did something similar with self and Self.  Let us know your thoughts.

I like your reference of the, I think it was Stanford experiment, in which they set up a mock prison and the substantial negativity that overcame the guards, and prisoners for that matter. I haven't heard of anyone considering Shadow in understanding the ensuing dynamics, although I'm some Jungians have, and it is a very useful idea in this regard.  So thanks for introducing this here.  One of the important analyses of this study showed that the prisoners were to a significant extent participating in the conflict with the guards.  This raises interesting ideas regarding how separating “us and them” is fertile ground for Shadow, and is one of the hallmarks of shadow projection.  One last point regarding the mock prison study, one axiom that I have found true is: power without love easily becomes evil.  So, power differential in “us and them” situations is one place the Shadow thrives.  Again, love is the answer, but again, one requisite of greater circles of love, is shadow integration.  

How we manage during times of survival and may at such times perpetrate against one another is a tough issue.  I, myself, would not attribute all the negativity in such situations to Shadow.  For where does the instinct for survival reside, perhaps even in the self, small “s.”  Interesting question….

Finally, I would love to discuss more, as you reference, “archetypal possession.”  It would make a great board of it's own, which I am now going to set up.  See ya there, I hope. 

Thanks again for your very thoughtful posts and deep understanding of the archetypes.

With much appreciaion,

twice awakened Doug