Title Changed To: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

What do we have here - silence on the gender issues?!! I met this (like) 'totally' sexy redhead in a dream about a decade ago… wow she blew my socks off. I still haven't met her in real life though. She sure gets me wound up though. :-)

Now all this testosterone energy has to go somewhere does it not? Well chasing the anima in real life can lead to some BIG upheavels in life (image 1. rollercoaster 2. surfer slamming on the beach). Take care what you ask for you may get it!

Now this shaman guy, he says us N. American folks are all messed up in trying to balance our inner gender issues. Needless to say I told him to take a hike. My mistake. Geeze let me see it has taken another decade to work through that one - (PS definately not not done yet)….

Now societally - and we each mirror that in one way or another - it's pretty obvious ain't it? Look at the huge transitions women are going through. Now my personal view is that men are going through something equally as big but are not nearly as consciously aware of it. I am interested to hear lots of views on that.

Now I seem to have found that inner daemon dancer that I thought I was looking for on the outside. Instead I dance my own truth (Fridays 9-12).

Nuts - sure, happy - yes, anima 9 animus 8 (end of 3rd period)….

Xrisham

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Great stuff, thanks for opening this one up X.  Just some thoughts:  In the 60's in America, with womens liberation, it seems that along with the social, political, economic “equalities” that were gained by women, there was also an infusion of Animus.  Given the power of the archetypes, this has been managed in various ways by different women.  Some would say that some women have become out of balance with their feminine nature, nurturing, receptive, supportive.  What has this been like and what are the outcomes?

With the rise of the feminine, some would say that many men have lost touch with their positive masculine nature, protective, provider, assertive.  Just as for women and the infusion of the Animus, there has been a great infusion of Anima for men.  What has this been like and what are the outcomes? 

For Jung, as with all the archetypes, integration is the goal, as is balance. 

twice awakened Doug

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Ya Dave,

You're right Dave, and I did say “many men,” not all men.  I think what has happened for some open minded and growing men in America, is that they may be out of balance with too much Anima.  This is due in part to few positive male images and some break down in male role models, while positive and strong feminity has increased.  Most men and women for that matter, will describe fathers who in one important way or another were absent, in part because we work sooo much over here.  More positive masculinity is needed.

Thanks Dave,

twice awakened Doug

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

“With the rise of the feminine, some would say that many men have lost touch with their positive masculine nature, protective, provider, assertive.”

I realize you have distanced yourself with the “some would say…” but I can't really believe you could say this. I guess it depends on the people around you. I would say that the general culture is definitley still trending toward the machismo for the male. Do you really think that the societal paradigms for men are too much flavored by anima or is it just the sensitive men you are most often dealing with. I suspect my daughter who was married to a Marine and lives in a military-oriented area in Virginia Beach would have a different outlook.

Now where Dave is… Wyoming, where Men are Men and the sheep are nervous, I would say that anima is in short supply…

With the creeping militarization of the society (just check out the kids toys sometime, or video games) I'd say the anima is in retreat.

My son (now 16 years old) was always raised in as gender-balanced way as his mom and I knew how. The result? He is considered weird by the Normals, and is in an alternative school after a year in the local high school. When he was ten he told me school was “like jail for my mind”. He is fascinated by the warrior image… he loves fencing, etc., but is one of the most balanced people of any age that I know (of course I am completely unbiased).

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Hey Curmudgeon, thanks for your clarity again.  Yes, you are correct, there is a group of “sensitive males” that are have lost some of their masculinity.  First, kudos to your son for being balanced, as is my son, now 17.  Also kudos to him for realizing when his mind was in a trap, and for finding and having a way out.  I too, attended an alternative high school, within a very large regular public high school, “School Within A School.”  Very groovy indeed.  My children attend a very progressive school as well. 

In any case, so there are two prominent models for males being discussd here:  For lack of better terms, “Traditional masculinity” and “Immasculinity.”  It is interesting to note that both your examples of masculinity involve violence, one is in the military and the other fencing (a great art and discipline as well, and it can be quite fun!).  While I understand the social/political “need” for war in various circumstances, what are your thoughts and feelings regarding killing others, for any “reason.”  How about from a spiritual point of view?  The conclusion is obvious.  In fact, you have made my point for me.  The traditional view of masculinity in our culture is imbued with violence and negativity.  “Sensitive” and other men have reacted against this, and with the rise of feminity, with overactive Anima.  I take it as my personal responsibility as a man, particularly as the father of a young man, to provide a positive example of masculinity that is neither violent, hostile, or in need of domination, nor overly feminized, while at the same time being androgenous and including traditionally feminine attributes in balance with positive masculine ones.  I would never say I am perfect.  What is positive masculinity: wise, experienced, savvy, protective, provider, balanced, strong.

All in One,

twice awakened Doug 

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Hmmm…

It is interesting to note that both your examples of masculinity involve violence, one is in the military and the other fencing (a great art and discipline as well, and it can be quite fun!).  While I understand the social/political “need” for war in various circumstances, what are your thoughts and feelings regarding killing others, for any “reason.”  How about from a spiritual point of view?  The conclusion is obvious.  In fact, you have made my point for me.  The traditional view of masculinity in our culture is imbued with violence and negativity.

I think that the predominant male model in our society does involve violence. I think fencing is ritualized violence, as is Tai Chi, for instance. I like Tai Chi, my kid likes fencing, there's more action. From a “spiritual view”… hmmm well the most spiritual men in my experience were in the Indian Army, my teacher was a civilian accountant in the Indian Army until his retirement. The Sikh tradition is full of examples of the Sikhs standing against the Moghul invaders, protecting the right of the Hindus to practice their religion free from forced conversion to Islam. The Warrior as protector is both inner and outer, and can be (should be?) part of the balance of genuine masculinity.

I was the at-home parent for my boy in his first 4 years, so he has the model of a man being able to do what we call “woman's work”, then also being a worker in the world with my own odd-ball business, where I get dressed up in a top hat to go do my work… so who knows what he has as a clear vision of being a man… he'll have to figure some of it out himself, like many of us did.

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Oh you men - you are so marvellous /smile/ *wink* maybe even a happy kiss on the forehead - oh dear no I have gone to far LOL.

Loving the debate. Get your male fires burning. Come on ladies - pour us some water - or pour some water on us !!

Graeme - Xrisham

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

That's bullshit. As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as Mr Mom, only Mr Dad doing the housework. People would come up to me with my toddler amongst a group of moms (who were kind enough to take me in) and tell me what a wonderful thing I was doing, but not say anything to the women sitting there with me. Pathetic

But there is nothing like doing it to make you appreciate it. Never again could you say, “well… what did you do all day?”

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

I agree with you Curmudgeon, it is patronizing for men to get more credit then a woman for the same job.  How many modern women would tolerate a “pat on the head” for doing any job in the working world?
Regarding our earlier disagreement:  I personally cannot reconcile killing and violence with spirituality, the later of which is based on love and compassion, and as it expands, includes for all.  Still interesting that you use waring men as some sort of positive image of masculinity - men killing other men?  The example you gave includes an invading and destructive army of men.  Agreed, the defenders are heroes.  Agreed, in defense violence and killing is necessary.  The point I am making, albeit idealistic, is that if men all over the world stopped perpetrating violence in the first place, there wouldn't be a need to defend against violence.  As long as we maintain the violent and murderess view of masculinity as acceptable and the norm, the world will continue to be violent.  Very soon we could all be quite fucked by this. 

When will we be

All in One,

twice awakened Doug

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Waitaminit waitaminit!

“Still interesting that you use waring men as some sort of positive image of masculinity…”

Did I make a positive value judgment somewhere with regard to war and or killing? I said that, or meant anyway, that the dominant model of masculinity, at least in the west and… well, just about everywhere, involves violent action, I did not mean that as an endorsement. And my use of the Sikhs and my teacher was intended to say that the Warrior should not be excluded from a balanced, positive model of masculine being… or feminine being for that matter (why shouldn't a woman be a Warrior?)

“As long as we maintain the violent and murderess [lol! how did the Murderess get here, and what is her view of masculinity?] view of masculinity as acceptable and the norm, the world will continue to be violent.  Very soon we could all be quite fucked by this.”

I would say that we are already fucked by this. When was it NOT accepted as the norm… anytime in the last X plus millennia?

“I personally cannot reconcile killing and violence with spirituality, the later of which is based on love and compassion, and as it expands, includes for all.”

Well, of course I find war, killing, and violence repugnant and would be very happy if they were not part of what is… but how long might it take for the “masculine” gods of war to be ushered out into the void? What about the problem of the encounter of balanced, essentially non-violent people/societies/cultures with violent/warlike/advantage-seeking people/societies/cultures? The less aggressive generally are consumed. This sucks but how do we deal with it. Gandhi got rid of the British Raj but his own compatriots became the Raj. The Narragansett are overwhelmed by the white settlers and, weighing their existence in the balance, cooperate with the colonists in New England, etc.

We can find a balance point in ourselves where we nurture love and compassion, but that is so easy to say, and maybe even do in our secure little middle-class enclaves, but would we stand the test in Baghdad, or East LA, or if the wolf shows up at the door… if the wolf shows up at my door I'd like a weapon handy… This is a REAL WORLD issue, not just a topic of discussion…

Now as I feel about it a little more I feel that this may be one of those paradoxes: “I personally cannot reconcile killing and violence with spirituality”… maybe that is not the point. In my wolf at the door example I could allow myself and my family to be plundered and killed without a fight (have you seen the movie The Mission? this problem is explored poignantly, I recommend it) or defend (hopefully) successfully and worry about reconciling things later. I don't have the answer, and I believe this is an important question, and not intellectually only.  A little further with that example: if the reconciliation is within oneself, would one feel more at peace having (unsuccessfully) defended one's hearth and family, or having opened the door to plunderers and submitted? The outcome would be the same: suffering and death, but would one feel more at peace, “spiritually”,  one way or the other?

Finally: “I agree with you Curmudgeon, it is patronizing for men to get more credit then a woman for the same job.  How many modern women would tolerate a “pat on the head” for doing any job in the working world?”

LOL! I didn't feel patronized, I thought it was ridiculous… outrageous…  to treat me as special in some way in the midst of women who were doing no less than I (no doubt more competently) without receiving any recognition… except maybe on Mother's Day. And I suspect if the “pat on the head” was a raise and parity most women would happily receive it.

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Can you please clarity to what you are referring when you say ‘that’s bullshit’ and what follows? I really don’t see where that came from.

Thanks

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Sure. Perhaps it was just how I was feeling at that moment, but I took… I guess I still take… this:

“Oh you men - you are so marvellous /smile/ *wink* maybe even a happy kiss on the forehead - oh dear no I have gone to far LOL.

Loving the debate. Get your male fires burning. Come on ladies - pour us some water - or pour some water on us !!”

…as being somewhat condescending, or perhaps indicating that we thought we were just so wonderful for doing the stuff we were talking about, and that we were looking for praise with regard to our wonderfulness. And I do think that is bullshit, because that is the opposite of what I was trying to say. It was the hardest work I ever did and I think my ex would probably say I did half the job she could have done if she were at home, and she'd probably be right. I didn't think I was wonderful, I thought I was barely making it. But my kid got to see that there were other ways of being a guy than he would be seeing in the general culture. I tried to say that clearly in this bit in answer to what I felt was a misunderstanding by Doug:

Finally: “I agree with you Curmudgeon, it is patronizing for men to get more credit then a woman for the same job.  How many modern women would tolerate a “pat on the head” for doing any job in the working world?”

LOL! I didn't feel patronized, I thought it was ridiculous… outrageous…  to treat me as special in some way in the midst of women who were doing no less than I (no doubt more competently) without receiving any recognition… except maybe on Mother's Day. And I suspect if the “pat on the head” was a raise and parity most women would happily receive it.

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Re: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Ah Curmudgeon,

Not that we must, but I agree with everything your wrote.  There is no doubt that if I and the ones I love were under physical attack with threat of death on this plane, I would use the biggest and best weapon to stop it, and have no remorse.  It may be sad, but the decision would be clear.  If it is personal development, and I believe it may be, I have not made it to the point of peaceful passivity when faced with such a threat, i.e., accepting mine and my loved ones demise on this plane through the violence of others.. I, perhaps being somewhat of a curmudgeon myself - most people from Boston have some of that - understand that the most aggressive and dominant civilation, that is best at being aggressive, will dominate.  This is what I call “alpha monkey” mentality, and successfull aggression and domination is the means of genetic selection that has suceeded throughout evolution.  I view humans as just being “smart monkeys.” I'm not sure that animals aren't spiritual, but I know if they are, they can't talk about it, at least not in English or Spanish (I know a little of this).  Humans are also spiritual.

So, there you have it, aggression is hard wired in.  No doubt, Warrior is an archetype and the symbolic and psychological manifestation of that hardwiring.  While not one of Jung's original archetypes, Warrior has been talked about extensively by Jungians.  Indeed, the sports figures, the business man, and other images have been taken as modern manifestations of the warrior.  Of that we would probably not disagree.  Our adversarial legal system, and the courtroom is an intellectual battle ground, and one in which I make my living at times. 

Your question of whether we need war to evolve in some way is provocative, but I doubt that it is necessary.  Rather, given how we have evolved, the warring manifestation of the Warrior archetype may be the end of our evolution. 

It seems the question is how to channel the Warrior archetype, e.g., “The Peaceful Warrior.”  Let me digress a moment: There is a book by Dan Millman, and the main character is a gymnast, which is a type of Warrior.  In any case the Wise Man in the story says a few wise things, one of which is “Anger, hatred, and violence, are only products of fear.”  I think most of us understand this.  The point is, how have we learned to respond to fear, if we have fear at all?

There are various manifestations of Warrior.  One of which responds to fear with violence against others.  A more developed Warrior responds to fear by allowing the fear and not responding to it.  There are other ways, but you get my point.  I took Karate as a young teenager, and learned, “The best masters do not have to fight.”  Hence, Warrior can take peaceful action.  There can even be a Warrior for Peace.  On an archetypal level, how can this be?  Warrior can be balanced by Anima. 


All in One,

Doug

Re: Title Changed To: Masculinity, the Warrior, and the Anima

Wow!!! I love you guys!

I love the Murderess, 'Mudge', and Dave, I know you meant a different word in ”the Men in Scotland are defiantly out of touch with even the tiniest aspect of their anima”, but maybe there's more truth there than you meant!!!!

Anima and Animus, to me, are energies, not roles.  All humans have them, in varying degrees.  The energies move in different ways, which we humans have defined into stereotypes.  In my view, we have gotten lost in defining masculine and feminine.  Who decided that 'men behave like this', 'women behave like that'?  MEN???? No, we all bought into the ideas…

Speaking from personal experience, when I began to 'wake up' and grow up, I wasn't aware of an archetype of warrior(ess), but she sure did show up!  “I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!” became my motto…The warrior was a sleeping energy within myself.  When we are AWARE of our different archetypal energies we can use them more effectively, more compassionately.  The whole idea of individuation to me is realizing these energies within myself, and living with them in harmony.  Forget the 'roles'…We have to stop giving attention to the definitions given to us by advertising, religious dogma, and in what we say to ourselves about ourselves.

By the way, the animus likes to “F____ you”.  So many folks are using this as their only way of expressing a thought or emotion, usually anger…So is it any wonder there is so much violence expressed toward women?  What are men so angry about? In my last relationship, there was a LOT of animus energy expressed from time-to-time on both sides.  Warring with my partner was not what I would call fun…I learned that if I didn't continue with the energy, it eventually dissipated.

I also have studied astrology in terms of my own chart.  What I understand about the placements of the planets is confirmed in my own experience of myself.  I have a lot of animus energy when it comes to dealing with the world.  I am learning how to give myself the kindness and compassion I'd like to receive from a loving mother. 

Six months ago (May 2007) my partner passed away.  As I was getting ready for a trip back east to see my family in August, his son called to 'check in'.  He said he was beginning to feel the loss of his father.  When I returned from my trip in September I learned that he had fallen in love, after many years of not being involved with a woman.  I wonder if he has found the 'mirror'/anima in the form of a woman, to assist him with his emotional expression.  It does seem that men 'use' women for their emotional expression, and the women allow it; they are both unconscious of what is happening.

So, with that last tidbit, I will post - it was interesting to read this discussion.  I hope other women will also respond.  You, know, balance…