derby day noodles

Re: derby day noodles

Oh Mary. I see you have a broad range. Your brush is rather pointed this time. Pointing at other people, I notice. Are you sure that's the right direction?

I think we're all in this together. Goddess alone decides, not us, and it's their own miserable fate if some poor shmucks just have to get born rich. Sure understand your anger, and you sure expressed it well! Our very first priority must always be that those with not enough to live on get it. But if there were no Derby there would have been no hat scene in My Fair Lady. That would be a damn shame in my book.

It's hard not to compare this day noodle with the raw love spirit flying through your poem to Sandra at WRITING FROM DIVING DEEPER: A WRITING WORKSHOP. Though I do like this one, truly, especially since you did it.

Diving Deeper is a place to dive deeper into your anger too. So don't let me keep you from getting your ya yas out. Anything you want to serve us I will eat, gladly, even if it gives me indigestion once-in-awhile.

And how did you manage to format your posting??? I'm with child to know.

Love and Anger, two very fine emotions,

Tom

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Pointing at other people, I notice. Are you sure that's the right direction?

I would love to hear a little more about the affect the poem has on you, dear Tom. Yes we are all in this together, definitely. I'm not sure any of us know' what is the right direction… :-)

I'm mostly interested in your response to this poem -  I suspect that if you climbed deeper into your feeling place while reading it, and share what you experience here, it might open up something for you as well as for Mary. Indigestion could mean a lot of things.. lets explore!

And how did you manage to format your posting??? I'm with child to know.

Here is one way - you need to open a google mail account. It's free. I think you go to http://mail.google.com/

Once you have set up your account, when you compose a new email, you have the choice of a few font  faces and colours etc,  and you can even input links in the piece. You then copy this and paste it into the Zaadz window.

Love to you both,
Sandra

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Thanks for the suggestion on the cunt'n paste, Sandra, that makes sense.

I thought the poem was about the tricky nature of perception, and how we are all caught up in it. I guess I didn't communicate very well.

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I guess I didn't communicate very well.

Oh don't pass judgment so quickly dear Mary! I'd sit on the poem awhile, see what other comments are made, and re-read it yourself later, much later - days, weeks, months even.

I often discover so much in my own writing - but only after I've put it aside and forgotten about it.
I suspect your poem is about many things including the tricky nature of perception.

Love,
Sandra

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It is about the tricky nature of perception, Mary.

My perception of it may have been, and probably was, very far from its nature. I fear I may have been a little cute with the comments. I've taken as my motto in Zaadz, “Be the change you want to see.” And I've been riding that horse around the site for all it's worth, focusing only on personal change and letting the world raise its vibration by osmosis or something.

Seems like always the same old sordid tale - if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

So I focused more on the beginning severity of the poem than the pulling back and wondering part afterward.

Please bear with my projections, my very dear Mary. Your poetry is a great repository for all the things I don't want to face in myself. And never doubt that your work communicates well. There's absolutely no reason in the world that all your work should be about light and love, that would be silly. What was I thinking? Shadows work as well.

Sandra suggested I give it another read. I'll try to be less judgemental or try to not judge you for judging. More later….

Love,

Tom

PS Do you know how to format posts without joining Google mail? Thanks!

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Tom, you are sweet. Thank you.

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Well, I went over it again, and mostly it makes me feel sad. I feel hurt for all the people that Mary seems to think so poorly of. I bet most of them are really nice, or at most, fearful and deluded. I just don't think we're qualified to look down on other people, since we have no idea what drives them. If we were them, we'd probably be bigger a-holes than they are.

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I don't understand why you think that I think poorly of them. I am saying we are all in the same trap. The fact is, opulance is not the fault of the person who is immersed in it. I am sure queen elizabeth is a lovely lady. The point is, when we are immersed in a context, we see what we see, no matter what the context is.

It is this sort of misunderstanding and assumptions about me that hurts so badly I want to quit writing or speaking or sharing my thoughts.

But don't worry, I am not so easy to shut up. People have been telling me to shut up for as long as I can remember, and it hasn't worked yet.

I wish that I could be understood, rather than shamed.

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Mary,  the irony here is that Tom is experiencing the very thing you are expressing in your poem. The fact that Tom is experiencing somewhat of a disconnect is not necessarily due to a lack of communicaton or your part. I think the poem is very evocative.  For me the poem is about the desire to understand cross-perception in the world. I repeat, understand.  Sometimes when you are at 300 feet and going further down it can be discomforting if you don't want to follow that person down to say 400 feet. Keep diving Mary. All ahead full.  There is no shame in inquiry.

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Thank you Ron. I just feel so badly when there are any misunderstandings. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, especially Tom's, who is such a delightful man. It seems to get so complicated so easily.

with these tears
a gift of mercy
please
and thank you
this broken place
is all i have
to give

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Mary, Tom, Ron.

I want to wade in here a bit - thanks Ron for your comment, it's pertinent to what I'm going to write.

I've said elsewhere that I don't feel able to comment usefully on poetry - it's not my own art form and I don't read enough of it to be able to give what I consider to be helpful suggestions/feedback. I feel badly about this, and, what I have to say about 'commenting' applies to poetry and prose.

I will be making a 'general posting' about how to comment on other people's work. I sense that this is much needed, especially with poetry. I've had a chat with Alex and Burt about this, and we feel that poets in particular need the tenderest care when given feedback.

One point I'd like to make here is to be careful of being 'personal' with comments, and by this I mean directly connecting what is 'written' with the writer- Tom, I'm going to use you here, I'm afraid - I'm sure you can take it, at least I hope you can.

You wrote:

all the people that Mary seems to think so poorly of.

Although it's easy assume this is Mary's voice/opinion speaking, we do not know this. At all.

When we read prose pieces that are written in the first person, we also don't know if it is the voice of the 'writer', the memories of the writer. Even if we are sure it's autobiographical, we don't know that, and even if it is stated to be autobiographical, we still don't know if what we are told happened  'really happened'.

In fact , when you comment on the work, it's far more useful to everyone to assume that what is written has nothing to do with the writer. Ignore the fact that the 'writer' is listening here.  Let the work stand by itself, and if you comment, say what is it about the writing that makes you feel excited, bored, interested, happy, angry and so on.  If you are confused, see if you can say what it is in the writing that confused you. Your feeling of confusion may be exactly what the writer is intending - or it may simply be that the writer needed to “open up” an area.

If you do not link the work to the author in your comments, the writer is able to sit back and receive the comments without having to justify, explain, thank etc.

I often talk about how writing is deeply connected to our selves, our souls, our life journey. Poetry seems to express this journey more baldly sometimes than 'fiction' or other writing - but in fact it is no different.

I have found it deeply supportive to this journey to treat the writing as 'art' - rather than as therapy. In other words, I do not go into the writer's personal process much - not directly. The writing does this, all by itself. I might make suggestions that lead the writer more closely to places where they fear to tread, or where the 'treasure' is (in my humble opinion), but I've learned, and am still learning, to stay away from connecting the 'work' directly to personal process, to the writer. We go far deeper this way, simply by looking at the writing, by letting the story stand by itself.

I'm rattling on here, it's been a long day ( I just gave a half day Diving Deeper workshop) and It's been impossible to get onto Zaadz for hours, but I hope some of this helps.

Mary, your poem is clearly very powerful.  You do not need to explain what you wrote or what you tried to write. It stands by itself. I hope you will write more - of course you will, nothing is going to stop your muse, I know that. Let any comments sit for a bit - I don't mean ignore them, but you don't have to think them through too hard. If there is something there for you, it will take care of itself - you don't have to do anything about it. 

And there are many poets here who need your presence.  All I want is more writing, please - of any kind!

Love to all, Sandra

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Thanks for this gentle reminder, Sandra.  As always you somehow manage to carry everyone rather than let them fall.  It must be those wrists. You are right about poetry.  There can be a concentration there, an intensity, that can sometimes overwhelm people. I see it in comments outside this workshop environment.  A one or two minute read can sometimes trigger almost instantaneous projection. People can be quickly moved by a poem up and down the scale. So your prescription is on the mark.  Bring clarity of purpose to your read especially here in Diving Deeper.

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Thank you Ron and Sandra for being so gentle with me, who was not so gentle with Mary.

And Mary, bless you, dearheart. Please forgive me for hurting you. I think I went into attack mode as soon as I got the impression somebody was talking smack about my brothers and sisters. I'm finally able to read “derby day noodles” more dispassionately, and see exactly what you mean. You and I are in complete agreement. It was your vigorous word choice that got me going. Flabby diction would never have evoked that response. Your passionate words leapt off the page and ignited my foot. Luckily I was able to stick it in my mouth to cool it off. I'm flexible that way.

And please don't think that because you're misunderstood it's necessarily your fault. In this case it was all me.

For God's sake please don't stop sharing, Mary! Your words are beautiful in part because you are so vulnerable. My dream teacher used to say, “The wound is the resource.” It is your broken-ness that makes you so powerful. Your wise and beautiful words come out through all the cracks and bandages. If you were smooth and unblemished you would have no need for magic words to communicate the pain and joy of being you.

And I do get your pain, Mary, boy do I ever. You are the rocket ship that flew me to the moon and I'm making you feel ashamed? I regret it extremely. All I ever wish for you, ever and ever, is joy and fulfillment. There's no way the woman who wrote “Diving Deeper” could ever have mean-spiritedness in her poetry. I must have been insane. I do a lot better with understanding prose, I think. Understanding is not a strong point with me, in general. Born under the Sign of Confusion.

I do have a question/comment for Sandra:

…when you comment on the work, it's far more useful to everyone to assume that what is written has nothing to do with the writer. Ignore the fact that the 'writer' is listening here.  Let the work stand by itself, and if you comment, say what is it about the writing that makes you feel excited, bored, interested, happy, angry and so on.

Ordinarily, that is, in any writer's conference or group I've ever been in, I would agree with this. It's generally accepted etiquitte. But this is Diving Deeper, it's not ordinary, it's dangerous. It's not called Diving Shallower. We are exploring not only our art, but our souls, and the soul of the world. Letting the work stand by itself and commenting on it as though it had no connection with the writer is what they do in regular writers workshops, where all the atheists go. The poetry and prose works I've seen in Diving Deeper are windows to the writers' souls, and for me to pretend I'm not peeking would be disingenuous.

It may be better for the tender ego of the writer to speak of their work as if it wasn't the new-born baby of their heart. And it would be a horrible shame to drive someone off because of a personal comment. But how then do we get to the meat of our bone? For me, the soul is more important than the art.

Your Chagrined Buddy,

Tom

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love you guys – you give me happy feet!

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dig, dig, dig, Tom. I can just barely see the top of your head.  In the next to the last paragraph see if you can find any stated opinions that may be generalizations, strike them and see how that paragraph reads.  Yours, Ron.

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Thanks Ron, still digging. Looking for long-lost artifacts, again.

This is what I get when I follow your suggestion:

Ordinarily, that is, in any writer's conference or group I've ever been in, I would agree with this. It's generally accepted etiquitte.

Is that what you mean?

If that's the case, have to say I don't like it. If I can't use generalizations I'm dead in the water. Metaphors are generalizations.

Your digging metaphor made me remember a country/hillbilly lyric I wrote long ago, when I was actually a shovelling feller. If you know anybody with a guitar and an old hat, maybe they could use it. Doesn't have any music and never has. I'm guessing you're saying I'm digging an even deeper hole for myself, but digging ain't always bad.

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I could say I'm diggin your digging but I”ll restrain myself.  My dance partner is usually a grocery cart. Tom I have a confession to make.  I'm an atheist and now I'm pretty confused. Am I in the right workshop? And the soul of the world is like a weight I can't handle.  I can't even rhyme with that responsibility hanging over my head. I'll make you a deal. You put down the shovel. I'll let the cart go and let's dance.

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You are the soul of the world, brother. That's why you get so depressed sometimes.

An atheist, eh? Well I'll be hornswoggled and hogtied. Never figured to see one of you guys around these parts. This is God central, except without Hell and the one answer for all eternity. But as “new spiritualists” or whatever you want to call most of the folks in Zaadz, though there are many Buddists, we have no comdemnation of those who disagree with us. Actually we're devangelists, we send missionaries doo-to-door to ask people not to join. Then we ask them for a book.

Got one?

I could have danced all night!

Tom

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Tom.. Ron.. Mary…

Ah.. where to I begin this morning, this chilly tweety Berlin morning. I begin to feel some limitation in the 'online dialogue'. I sense that if we were all sitting here together something new could arise, something between the words. I'd hope to start by just sitting, in silence, our eyes closed, breathing. Listening to our breath, listening to the sound of our blood moving, to the sound of the room, the drop of a falling leaf outside, the clouds melting in the pale blue sky.

And then we might say a few words, or not.

And we are here, in this world of little black lines that seem to hold such weight, which can drop like pins into our skin, or skid off into deaf space if they did not exist. But perhaps we can drop into a place of listening, no matter that we are in different time zones, no matter that we cannot look into each others eyes and hear the sound between our heart-beats.

I will begin, here.

I liked what you said, Ron, about generalizations - I'm not sure it came across very clearly, however. It landed with me as if making generalizations was 'wrong' – even though you did not say this. So it sounded a bit like yet another generalization. Perhaps if you described a bit more about what happened for you when you read Tom would have supported him to understand where you were coming from.

And the point you were making - what I heard, that is -  is deeply valid. This  Diving Deeper group is specific, and specific each time we sit down to share here. It changes all the time.

And all groups are specific in time and space. I do not have a lot of experience with 'normal' writing conferences or groups. I bring what experience I have from my life, and also from my own writing teacher, Barbara Vesselago-Turner. It is true, her work more is focused on 'writing'  - how to support writers to write, - but she also comes from a background of inner exploration.

And, what I sense you were saying, Ron, is that in dialogue it is helpful to be specific about experience. So, Tom, if you told us about a particular incident during another writing group which only focused on the writing, and how this was for you - it would support me to see where you were coming from.

This is actually very much what I teach in terms of writing. Be specific. Don't talk 'about' a situation - bring us there, show us rather than tell us. Give us the details…. it opens the door for the reader to climb in to the world you are writing about, it supports the reader to see, feel in that world, and to make their own conclusions about it.

We are exploring not only our art, but our souls, and the soul of the world. Letting the work stand by itself and commenting on it as though it had no connection with the writer is what they do in regular writers workshops, where all the atheists go. The poetry and prose works I've seen in Diving Deeper are windows to the writers' souls, and for me to pretend I'm not peeking would be disingenuous.

I do agree, Tom.

For me, it's crucial to take on board the following possibility: if I am peeking, what I see is most likely myself.

So, if you see anger in Mary's poem, and especially if it triggers anger from you, this is 'your stuff', not hers. She might be angry or dumping or whatever in her poem (and I'm not saying this is the case, Mary, I'm simply using this as an example), but this is Mary's business, not your business ( to use a Byron Katie phrase).  Perhaps her words are a gift to you, Tom, so you can see something in yourself.

By owning your anger, and sharing this aspect of your experience in your comment to Mary, it supports your journey, your soul-work, and supports the soul-work of all of us here. If there is something there for Mary, she'll know.

It may be better for the tender ego of the writer to speak of their work as if it wasn't the new-born baby of their heart. And it would be a horrible shame to drive someone off because of a personal comment. But how then do we get to the meat of our bone? For me, the soul is more important than the art.

I agree, and to me, art and soul are perhaps the same thing. The voice of the soul may come out in all sorts of ways as we 'clear our vessel', it might be clunky or loud or faint or disjointed.

As I've said before, we are all so 'conditioned' by our parents, society, teachers, past-lives even, who knows - it takes time for the pure voice to come through, perhaps. And when it does, maybe our time here is over, or transformed into another dimension. I don't know.

What I do know is that we need the space, the encouragement to let it all come out, in whatever way it does. There is truth and beauty along every step of the journey, even the angry steps.

My suggestion not to make a direct connection between the writer and the work is not only to support the writer to see (and hear) more clearly what you say, but also for you, the reader, to see & hear more clearly, to experience that perhaps you can only see & hear yourself.

If you share your specific experience while reading/hearing another's work, this will encourage both you and the writer to dive deeper - so much of what we do or say or think is determined by deeply hidden unconscious factors, and we need mirrors to help us uncover these hidden parts.

The most pertinent points I can say about commenting on another person's work, is:

- Speak about yourself and your experience while reading, and how it relates to your journey, if you want to include this aspect.

- If you want to delve into the writer's personal journey/belief system, ask gentle questions rather than state what you think is going on for them.  Explain why the question came up for you - e.g. what feelings/thoughts of your own were triggered.

- If the writer does not want to pursue such a dialogue, then let go.

- and last, but not least, keep reminding yourself of the possibility that  whatever you see out there, is in you. If you have a judgement about someone's work, or a character, or an opinion, it says something about you. Be curious about yourself. Share with us what you discover.


As for God. Well. That's for another time, another place even.

And of course, the subject runs through every word I speak, is in every drop that is added to this pool here in Diving Deeper

Diving Deeper has no limits as to belief or non-belief or religion or creed or God or Goddesses or any other way of seeing the world or understanding or communicating what 'it' and our experience is.

For the record, for me personally, there are three levels - and they are not hierarchical:

- I know nothing.

- All there is is This ( Tolle and Parsons say it so beautifully)

- “There's no believing in God…We either know God, or we don't.”
    (from Shantaram by Gregory David Roberts)



~ long winded Love from Sandra

Re: derby day noodles

I thought I'd just jump in and give my comments on what I felt when I read “Derby Day Noodles” (love the title Mary!)  ~ I connected with a sadness that I often feel about the state of our world and how I often feel very helpless to make any real difference.   We've probably all watched a few T.V. programs that display the “rich & the fabulous” and all of the excess that they parade.  And like Mary, one part of me says “Wow, think of how many people they would be able to help!  Don't they know there are people starving and being slaughtered in Africa? A whole generation wiped out by AIDS, leaving hungry orphans in it's wake? We have children right here in the United States going to bed hungry!!!  Is all of that “stuff” necessary for one person/family?  Is a $40,000,000 house really necessary, couldn't you have a really nice house for, say, $1,000,000 and have $39,000,000 left over to help change the world???”  The other part of me says (sshhhhh, very quietly, it's a secret, don't tell anyone) “I want some of that!!!!” 

Probably because I just watched “Marie Antoinette” I also found the rumored words “Let them eat cake!” ringing in my ears.

I found “Derby Day Noodles” to be a wonderful and honest look at that little bit of duality in us all !!!  Good work, Mary.

With Love To All,  Ayla

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hi all

I think after reading the poem and then everything it managed to stir up within peple I believe Mary should giveher self a HUGE pat on the back … she has managed to do what all writers would so dearly love to do and that is to evoke emotion. To be able to touch another regardless of how they touch the other person.

Mary what you write is yours how it is taken by another is not your issue, its theirs. Don't take what others say about your writing personally. Everyone will react differently
depending on how they are triggered, their own experiences will dictate how they are triggered and how they deal with it is in fact their issue.

I personally think it was a wonderful piece and considering the reaction, wow Mary you did it.
You made people FEEL!!  

Brilliant

Caitlin

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Thank you Caitlin

I feel blessed, to have walked through this storm, to have survived intact and with fresh affirmation and appreciation of the depths of generosity and courage and heart required to walk this path of connection, to face our own demons, to feel not only our own pain, but the pain we cause one another through mismanagement of this powerful and beautiful magic that flows between us.

And thank you Tom, Sandra, Ron, for this amazing passage… I hope all that have ventured here leave with a sense of what we can become, if only we care, if only we dare…

mary

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thanks ayla, it is a profoundly sad conundrum, but also holds the key to our power. Once we master the art of perception, we can better see and avoid the traps. Unfortunately, we all must intend this for ourselves, and waking ourselves up to this is a tricky recipe!

But i don't want to err on the side of complacency. I do not want to pretend I don't see the carnage. I want to be strong enough to bear it, and bend it toward resolution.

i am grateful to all of you, including my best buddy Tom, for working through this difficult process with me. Such priceless learning!

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God bless us one and all!

Love Ever,

Tom

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Oh, Tom, what can I say.

Thank you.

And thank you everyone for contributing to this amazing thread, thank you Mary for being the seed that started it all.

Much love,
~ Sandra

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First, my question is do they serve noodles at derby day?  And if so what kind?  I guess I have to watch My Fair Lady again.

B. sorry, I am a jester first most.

Third, I loved your poem Mary and all the discussion and sharing it brought forth.  Thanks for riding the storm :)  I think it is what writing is about and it is the very essence of what words do.  Everything we do is surrounded by the word and how the words are crafted.

4. I am so grateful for Sandra, my wonderful friend, and Alex and Burt for creating this space on zaadz.  I don't think I have enjoyed more activity here since I have been a member.  Kudos to our Pod masters.

Next, Sandra…please expand your hand to poetry at some point with your amazing line - “And we are here, in this world of little black lines that seem to hold such weight, which can drop like pins into our skin, or skid off into deaf space if they did not exist.”

I have been shipmate on a boat this past year that has been sailing the sea of words.  Many of the words, unfortunately at times my own have lead me close to the plank.  I have been working hard at swabbing the scurvy off those storied boards of the deck in hopes to work my way towards captain of this vessel and only hope that I find some passage through these waters here at Diving Deeper.  And maybe it is only a submersion in the depths of the darkest waters that I will some day find the sun as it beats on my washed up body.

Sandra,  is so wise on her comments about the ”little black lines.”  There is so much to language and words and how they are presented.  Here (on screen or in print) it carries no tone or expression that we could show in a writer's workshop as we read our works.  It sits black on white, open to everyone's own interpretation and voice and how they read it in their heads.

Finally, from Mary, derby day noodles
” And I wonder if it is the fairy-dust

We stir in our minds”

i need to gather the dust of the sandman to give me rest in the wee hours of the morning so i have the strength to get through my monday's work.  ah, insomnia….

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Dear Mike -

Sandra…please expand your hand to poetry at some point ..

Well thank you for the encouragement. I actually started writing with poetry, from an early age until my mid-twenties. There are some pieces I still like, but most of it seemed to be navel-gazing of the self-perpetuating “poor me” kind, and it was time to move on.

Here is one I wrote when I was about 13… it's the only one I can remember. The rest are in deep storage in Canada.

Time is forever
engulfed
by the void

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Mike, well, you got me to write a poem.. the first in years.

<<sigh>> 

The hardest 'assignment' I've had in a LONG time.

Love,
Sandra

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Sandra :o)

I started my poetic carreer in early age of 8 or 9 and here's two lines I can remember: