ON COMMENTING

This is an 'addendum' to my Notes Along the Way. I was going to write a special piece about commenting on other people's work, but the thread inspired by Mary's poem Derby Day Noodles more or less states everything I wanted to write. I will copy my notes here, but it would be more useful and make more sense to you if you read the whole thread as it is really a discussion between myself, Ron and Tom.

I do have a question/comment for Sandra:

…when you comment on the work, it's far more useful to everyone to assume that what is written has nothing to do with the writer. Ignore the fact that the 'writer' is listening here.  Let the work stand by itself, and if you comment, say what is it about the writing that makes you feel excited, bored, interested, happy, angry and so on.

Ordinarily, that is, in any writer's conference or group I've ever been in, I would agree with this. It's generally accepted etiquitte. But this is Diving Deeper, it's not ordinary, it's dangerous. It's not called Diving Shallower. We are exploring not only our art, but our souls, and the soul of the world. Letting the work stand by itself and commenting on it as though it had no connection with the writer is what they do in regular writers workshops, where all the atheists go. The poetry and prose works I've seen in Diving Deeper are windows to the writers' souls, and for me to pretend I'm not peeking would be disingenuous.

It may be better for the tender ego of the writer to speak of their work as if it wasn't the new-born baby of their heart. And it would be a horrible shame to drive someone off because of a personal comment. But how then do we get to the meat of our bone? For me, the soul is more important than the art.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And I wrote back: ( I also refer to Ron's suggestion to Tom to remove the generalizations in the second last paragraph)

I begin to feel some limitation in the 'online dialogue'. I sense that if we were all sitting here together something new could arise, something between the words. I'd hope to start by just sitting, in silence, our eyes closed, breathing. Listening to our breath, listening to the sound of our blood moving, to the sound of the room, the drop of a falling leaf outside, the clouds melting in the pale blue sky.

And then we might say a few words, or not.

And we are here, in this world of little black lines that seem to hold such weight, which can drop like pins into our skin, or skid off into deaf space if they did not exist. But perhaps we can drop into a place of listening, no matter that we are in different time zones, no matter that we cannot look into each others eyes and hear the sound between our heart-beats.

I will begin, here.

I liked what you said, Ron, about generalizations - I'm not sure it came across very clearly, however. It landed with me as if making generalizations was 'wrong' – even though you did not say this. So it sounded a bit like yet another generalization. Perhaps if you described a bit more about what happened for you when you read Tom would have supported him to understand where you were coming from.

And the point you were making - what I heard, that is -  is deeply valid. This  Diving Deeper group is specific, and specific each time we sit down to share here. It changes all the time.

And all groups are specific in time and space. I do not have a lot of experience with 'normal' writing conferences or groups. I bring what experience I have from my life, and also from my own writing teacher, Barbara Vesselago-Turner. It is true, her work more is focused on 'writing'  - how to support writers to write, - but she also comes from a background of inner exploration.

And, what I sense you were saying, Ron, is that in dialogue it is helpful to be specific about experience. So, Tom, if you told us about a particular incident during another writing group which only focused on the writing, and how this was for you - it would support me to see where you were coming from.

This is actually very much what I teach in terms of writing. Be specific. Don't talk 'about' a situation - bring us there, show us rather than tell us. Give us the details…. it opens the door for the reader to climb in to the world you are writing about, it supports the reader to see, feel in that world, and to make their own conclusions about it.

We are exploring not only our art, but our souls, and the soul of the world. Letting the work stand by itself and commenting on it as though it had no connection with the writer is what they do in regular writers workshops, where all the atheists go. The poetry and prose works I've seen in Diving Deeper are windows to the writers' souls, and for me to pretend I'm not peeking would be disingenuous.

I do agree, Tom.

For me, it's crucial to take on board the following possibility: if I am peeking, what I see is most likely myself.

So, if you see anger in Mary's poem, and especially if it triggers anger from you, this is 'your stuff', not hers. She might be angry or dumping or whatever in her poem (and I'm not saying this is the case, Mary, I'm simply using this as an example), but this is Mary's business, not your business ( to use a Byron Katie phrase).  Perhaps her words are a gift to you, Tom, so you can see something in yourself.

By owning your anger, and sharing this aspect of your experience in your comment to Mary, it supports your journey, your soul-work, and supports the soul-work of all of us here. If there is something there for Mary, she'll know.

It may be better for the tender ego of the writer to speak of their work as if it wasn't the new-born baby of their heart. And it would be a horrible shame to drive someone off because of a personal comment. But how then do we get to the meat of our bone? For me, the soul is more important than the art.

I agree, and to me, art and soul are perhaps the same thing. The voice of the soul may come out in all sorts of ways as we 'clear our vessel', it might be clunky or loud or faint or disjointed.

As I've said before, we are all so 'conditioned' by our parents, society, teachers, past-lives even, who knows - it takes time for the pure voice to come through, perhaps. And when it does, maybe our time here is over, or transformed into another dimension. I don't know.

What I do know is that we need the space, the encouragement to let it all come out, in whatever way it does. There is truth and beauty along every step of the journey, even the angry steps.

My suggestion not to make a direct connection between the writer and the work is not only to support the writer to see (and hear) more clearly what you say, but also for you, the reader, to see & hear more clearly, to experience that perhaps you can only see & hear yourself.

If you share your specific experience while reading/hearing another's work, this will encourage both you and the writer to dive deeper - so much of what we do or say or think is determined by deeply hidden unconscious factors, and we need mirrors and support to help us uncover these hidden parts.

The most pertinent points I can say about commenting on another person's work, is:

• Speak about yourself and your experience while reading, and how it relates to your journey, if you want to include this aspect.
  
  
• If you want to delve into the writer's personal journey/belief system/process, ask gentle questions rather than state what you think is going on for them.  Explain why the question came up for you - e.g. what feelings/thoughts of your own were triggered.

• If the writer does not want to pursue such a dialogue, then let it go.
  
  
• And last, but not least, keep reminding yourself of the possibility that  whatever you see out there, is in you. If you have a judgement about someone's work, or a character, or an opinion, it says something about you. Be curious about yourself. Share with us what you discover.

Re: ON COMMENTING

Sandra:  This is enormously compassionate, wise and thoughtful counsel.  It sets a highly caring and also professional standard for our work here.  Thanks to each of you - you, Tom and Ron for taking the time to express your thinking, and setting a high standard for our future interactions.  Required reading for all Workshop members!  Blessings,     AJN

Re: ON COMMENTING

Notes on Commenting:

• Comment on what 'works' for you. What does not work will fall away, This is true in life and in writing - if you place your attention on what is working, on what you feel grateful for, the rest will dissolve.(from my teacher Barbara Turner Vesselago).
  
  
• If you as a writer want critique that covers more than the above, let us know with a note at the end of your piece.

Re: ON COMMENTING

Notes on Commenting:

• Commenting is part of the writing process. As you read other people's work, and take the time to find out why you enjoy a piece, what works for you, and share these things in a way that is clear, it will support your own writing. Do the same when you read books - it's easy ( I do it all the time ) to get 'lost' in the world, but see if you can keep a conscious eye out for why you are taken in, what it is about the writing that engages you and keeps you reading. Or, you can also read the book twice - once just for pure enjoyment, the second time to look more deeply at the craft that went into it.

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This says it all Sandra. Thanks for all your thoughtful processing of this core idea surrounding mindful criticism and commentary on other's work. My silly glibness aside, I think if we want to be what this environment exudes we simply need to remember as best we can. If we remember each other it will be enough. File this page in the on-going Diving Deeper Development and Human Resources Library. May we always be in-process. Thanks to us.

ON COMMENTING - "oh I'm so sorry..."

Thanks Ron. Yes, we need reminders… and I'm so grateful for Pirjo and Synergyz's posts which add yet more to this important part of Diving Deeper.

More Notes on Commenting:

Please read this thread, which refers to how we sometimes respond to work we consider to be autobiographical with pity and condolences, and how this kind of response can gag the Muse.

~ Sandra

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Sandra & Gabriele,

I would love to continue the conversation  we started in Pirjo's thread here, on this thread, where it might be more appropriate. If Gabriele can forgive my pig headed-ness, I would really like to have a discussion of our opposing views to further both of our understandings.

Thank you both in advance for your understanding,

-Loni Love

Re: ON COMMENTING

hi Loni Love, would love to!

:)

actually, I don't really have the impression that we have opposiing views - we'll see in the process. I can relate to what you're saying in your comments, and start getting a feeling for where you're coming from and how you express yourself more by having read other comments of yours, like for Tom.

I wouldn't be surprised if we agreed in much of the content, and right now my gut feeling is that it's about different modes of commenting, the why and hows and for whoms that we are having opposing points of views.

I've just started writing 'The Art of Commenting' in form of a first essey, tand will continue to do so as I go along, since all of this is not fixed but developing in my own process with my writing. it becomes more and more obvious to me  that writing in Diving Deeper mode and commenting from that level of presence and support are inseperable.

this is VERY exciting and I appreciate your spirit and freshness. I think exchanging our views, maybe even crossing our swords at times (do you say that in English like this?), might be an inspiration for both of us. yes!

thanks for the invitation! gladly received.

with love,
Gabriele

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Loni, Gabriele -
I'm sadly off-line for a day or so, so can't contribute soon, but I'm looking forward to reading and commenting (!) on what what the two of you share, “I'll be back” (said in a Schwarzzenegger voice..)

Love, Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

I'm removing my post from Nono's thread to here, because it also actually doesn't belong there and, while I'm at it, make it more about me and what I'm discovering through commenting on other people's work.

Re: ON COMMENTING

ON COMMENTING:

I'm sitting on the train from Berlin to Bonn, pulling together some thoughts and feelings about this dialogue.

Gabriele makes a very good point:

“if you sit down for four hours and dive in, all kinds of things happen at once and you won't bother with tenses, wording or spelling and so on. you're not supposed to. that is something that can be taken care of later, in the editing. you just go there, whatever way it comes up and out.”

There are pieces here on Diving Deeper which do not arise out of this process - they are 'finished' or thought through, or planned or are final drafts.

There is most definitely place for this kind of work here on Diving Deeper.

And the process that I specifically guide has some characteristics  which tend to inspire work that is raw, up close, sometimes chaotic, sometimes confusing, and sometimes completely whole and in no need of further editing. In fact the more the Diving Deeper process is practised, the more you will find yourself producing work that needs very little editing.

I suggest that even spelling mistakes are not edited - not as you are writing. The second you start changing words, or sentences, you move into a different 'mode'. You become the editor, not the writer. Yes, if you want to post something up here you might want to correct spelling, but I would prefer you do very little more than this. If you want to open it out, work on it and then re-post, I am interested in reading this too - but the raw material is gold. And quite often, we as writers do not see the gold in our raw material. This takes time and practise - especially practise in 'not directing traffic' - NOT changing things, letting the words lie on the paper as you put them there, moving always forward, climbing ever deeper into the story. The more material you create in this way - putting it aside 'for later' - the more you will begin to see the patterns in your writing, the areas which draw you in, the soul-speak - your authentic voice.

We are SO conditioned to do things the 'right' way, to try and write 'well' ( according to whom?) - we need, I believe, to unravel these habits, and the best way is to keep encouraging yourself to write without knowing, without your 'editor' cap on. Most of our 'editor' caps are not neutral - they are our Demon Critics in disguise. It's why writers have editors.

So, dear Loni - my sense is that you have a strong 'editor' cap. She's a good one - and thus it's harder to see if there is some aspect that is actually a conditioned point of view. You have mentioned this in your posts, that what you write is your own preference, which is great - I really appreciate that. And I wonder if there is something here for you - a possibility of looking at these preferences - do they support you, and your own writing?

As I write these questions, I'm asking them of myself. I realise I have strong preferences for certain kinds of writing. I can feel - right now - how this can get in the way of me simply writing what comes up. I 'want' to write in a certain way. Who, exactly, is this 'I' wanting? What if I totally throw caution to the winds and just write — whatever comes up. This is the Diving Deeper process - to uncover the thought patterns which are automatic, to let the Muse flow whatever way SHE wants to, rather than the way I want her to.

So, here at Diving Deeper we are rowing two boats, and they work together very well. On the one hand we are deeply looking at who we are and what gets in the way of our aliveness, our creativity - we are encouraging each other to go beyond what we think we can do, beyond who we think we are - not only as writers, but as people. On the other hand, we are exploring the 'craft' of writing.

The Assignments are designed to push our 'buttons'  - to invite us to experiment in ways we think are 'not for us' - not fun, not our kind of thing…  not what we can do. Amazing things have happened here when people go for an assignment which is not in their 'normal' range of writing (Gabriele's first poem for example).

Back more specifically to On Commenting.
 
Loni - I'm going to use some of your comments as an example - I hope this is alright. For example, sometimes you make specific references to a word in a piece, which for you don't work, or generally to words and punctuation. You are often very complimentary, for example:

I can not find fault with one word, nor one punctuation.

And my take is that we are not here to find fault - especially with words or punctuation. We are here to feel, to explore unknown lands, to be here as fully as we can for another without imposing our own personality and conditioning onto them.

You mention a specific word in another of Tom's chapters:

”The use of the word 'blood' before 'courage' gave me pause, and when I read the sentence without it I liked it just as much, if not more. It doesn't ruin the sentence or anything it is just a personal preference.”

You do state it's a personal preference - I'm glad you do, it helps a lot in terms of being clear about where you are coming from. And, my sense is that this kind of commenting is too specific - it's great if you are 'The Editor' who has a working relationship with her author, but here, to me, it may not be that helpful for the writer - in this Diving Deeper space - in terms of what Diving Deeper is all about to me ( see my Notes Along the Way ).

Now, I of course have made reference to specific words and sentences, and I may not follow my own guidelines “On Commenting” ( I'm always up for reminders or suggestions!) - and I'm about to do it here now:  I wonder what it might feel like - to you and to Tom - if you just wrote:
 “the word 'Blood' gave me pause.”

To me, this feels like an opening - a door to step through - or not, but it's open.

To go into whether the sentence is better without it or not seems to me to close the energy down, and draws attention away from the piece as a whole.

 If a writer here wants that kind of commenting, I suggest to take it 'off-zaadz' - I have one or two writer friends who I send pieces to, and they send their pieces to me. We are looking for word for word critique. However, these friends are acutely aware of the Diving Deeper journey, the have attended many retreats with me (not only my own).  We have developed trust. We have a long-term relationship which means we can tell each other to back off if it feels too much; I know where they are coming from, I understand their own preferences so I'm able to add this to my decision of whether their suggestions are helpful for me or not.

(“Blood Courage” for me is fantastic by the way. Just goes to show how much we all differ in our tastes!)

Here on Diving Deeper I'm encouraging more raw material, more voice from the bare heart, more risks to be taken - and given the kind of writing this will bring up, detailed word by word commenting can hinder the road fearward.

When we comment, my suggestion is we (I include myself) see if we can put our own 'tastes' aside, and look into the heart of the writing which stands on the page, without imposing our opinions onto it.

This isn't easy at all. It does mean tuning in. As you said, it does mean taking a more intuitive position when reading. I'd like to encourage us to set aside our 'selves' (our personalities) as much as is possible, and feel into the writing as if we are wandering, wide eyed into a foreign land, not knowing, just listening, looking, smelling, and sharing our 'felt' responses: I feel like I'm going down a closed dark alleyway here; I feel confused; I have a sense of a wide open endless space here; I want to stay here and feel and see more; I feel suffocated by all these smells and sights; I don't want to go here, it seems to much, too dense and hard;  my heart is touched by this situation, I feel tears coming – whatever comes to you.

I ask that we all take off our 'glasses' - whether we are in the position of the 'writer' OR the reader/commentor.

My own writing teacher - a highly skilled and experienced teacher and writer, recently gave me back a piece of my writing which she found very difficult to read. She told me why: for her it was to internalised, she felt suffocated and weighed down by a certain kind of detail. (I might add that she never gives specific suggestions for wording etc, but simply shows me where she is most engaged, or if she is confused in an area etc) and she also told me that perhaps she was not the best person to comment on the material I had given her, as she knew I had very positive responses to it elsewhere - perhaps it was just not her thing, and her comments could get in the way.  Her paramount commitment was to me as a writer, not to her own preferences.

Once again I have gone on at length.

Thank you dear Loni, and Gabriele for inspiring yet more of my voice on this subject. It is of course, personal - I cannot pretend not to have my own preferences or 'glasses' - I do. It is why I said YES to cultivating this pod, so I could explore further and deeper, and also be put in a position to question why and what I do. So, I like strong voices like yours, Loni - it encourages me to keep looking.

Love to all,

Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

To all discussing on commenting ~

I just want to say that all this discussion on commenting just shows how committed you are to this Pod and the process of writing. 

I am so glad I have found all of you here at the infancy of this Pod and so happy to be here creating with you.

I agree with what Sandra is saying about your connection with the writer and how the level of commenting may need to develop over time and that we need to look more at the heart of the writing and help encourage each other there.

I am also not very good at sticking to writing rules, in fact I am probably down right awful, other then spelling which I get a little crazy about, but when i am moving fast along the page as in here i want to keep going and not capitalize and not spell and not comma and just let it all out.

the world is constantly evolving, new ways of communicating have started even because of the internet look at im, yep instant messaging, most of us don't even know what have of the kids are saying when the use rotf lmao?  huh what does that mean.

did shakespeare follow rules?  did he? maybe someone smarter knows, but my feeling is that writing can evolve and change and what we were taught in English class was the framework, but frameworks change ~ also look at computer programming, jazz music, snowboarding, art, whatever ~ things change because people had the courage to be fearless and try something different.

lets go for it…life's too short for commas, or semicolons for that matter;;;;  :) smile

~mike

Re: ON COMMENTING

Please, do not degrade the power of a well placed semi-colon. Life is not too short for them. You will certainly tear my heart in two!

Other than that, I am totally in agreement with you. :P

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Thanks Mike.

I'll share the link you sent me - it's got some good points - especially regarding the 'craft' of writing and how to comment on that: this is from a website which supports short story writers, in a similar way we do here:
Critiquing Tips
(There are other good notes on the craft of the short story, btw.)

~ Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

Sandra,

So, I have been found out. My pointy black hat fails miserably at hiding the more dangerous cap underneath. I was sort of hoping that it would take a bit longer for my character to be so perfectly revealed to me. Ah well, it is all in good time.

Do you know, it never occurred to me that the sentence “I can not find fault with one word, nor one punctuation” would be anything but the highest compliment? If anyone had ever said it to me (which they sadly have not) I would have walked around in a proud, grateful daze for at least the rest of the day.

This is what touches, and moves me. I have to admit that I sometimes have more regard for the words themselves than I do for any feeling intended by them. So, this is the positive focus of, I guess, what would be called my editor cap.

Well, here I am glad that I have fallen into this conversation. I see the paradigm shift. This is all a question of intention.

I have been taught to critique (and to request critique, for that matter) with the intention to 'make the writing/writer better'. You see, if your intention is to make the writing better, or different then your preferences, experiences, and editor cap will be your best of friends.

Here, it seems, there is a whole new kind of critique being spawned. It seems that here there is more of an intention to 'keep the writer writing'. These two intentions produce very different results, as they should. I would never have gotten so close to being so clear as to what my original intention was unless I had been challenged with an opposing one.

With this stated intention the sentence mentioned above falls miserably short of what might be expected. You will notice that in the above mentioned scenario of good feelings, and happiness there is no writing.

This opens up to me the source of my original misunderstanding. Everyone kept saying, “Be supportive,” and I kept saying, “I am being supportive! I am giving the most purposeful and loving comments as I have ever done, you silly people.” All the while working to support a different aim. 

To own the truth, now that I see it I can not fathom why or where I ever adopted that intention in the first place. Perhaps, it was all the rage back then. I do know that for some time a complete  lack of grammar or what I see as a poor word choice has been dreadfully offensive to me.

Were I not blessed with a mother that pays no attention to these things in any real way (excepting only word choice maybe) and writes beautifully I would probably have no patience at all. I try to let go of this as much as I possibly can to allow me to see as much of the real beauty and value in any given piece as is possible with my cap and goggles so firmly in place.

These are my immediate reflections after reading your wonderfully informing post. I see that there is much to dive into regarding the need to be right, the most purposeful placement of editing, my passion for words over people/feeling, and why I am so apt to be specific.

I wonder When did I become that way? Was I always such an editor? I remember loving words, did that have anything to do with it? Who taught me to critique? Why did I listen to them?, foremost and with the most fun, What of these preferences of mine? Do they serve me as a reader? Do they serve me as a writer? What are these preferences doing?

While I do not have any profound divination on these subjects just yet I am a bit ridiculous in my anticipation to post comments with a new intention. I can not wait to see what will unfold.

Thank you for enticing my mind back into that deliciously questioning state.

Love and what not,

Loni

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Gabriele,

Isn't it funny how once my ego was removed from the equation all kinds of merit, and reason magically appeared in your post?

This whole 'what doesn't work will fall away' thing….has that been explained somewhere? I have seen it mentioned in passing with great warmth, but I have yet to see an explanation. At this point I have to just say, frankly that, I don't believe you.

All these years of fancying myself so very full of faith, and I dare not trust that fallible 'ol me is going to let anything fall anywhere. I….we, have to let each other know….we have to confront each other's smallness….we have to help each other on. Are these thoughts familiar only to me?

Anyway, I request that you expand a little for me on this. I am hoping that with greater understanding will come more willingness, or at least greater courage.

Loni

Re: ON COMMENTING

well, Loni, you caught me.

sloppy wording when I say 'believe me'. you're right, why should you? and why should I want you to? what I can share with you is my personal experience.

the only answer I have for your question is in the writing I have done today. exploring my passion.

this is about as much as I can say about the subject at this point. what else is there I'm going to discover and maybe report on as I go along.
here we go!

One thing that becomes clear to me, the more I focus on commenting in supportive and nourishing ways, is who I’m doing this for in the first place. Because, as helpful and inspiring really fine tuned commenting can be for the writer on the receiving end of this gift, it is myself who profits largely from reading and commenting on the work of others at the same time.

When reading someone’s work, what I look for is what works. What touches me, how it touches me, what feelings, pictures, sensations do I experience reading somebody’s work. I will share with the author as much of this as I am able to express.

By letting the writing in and follow it’s way through my perceptive channels, feeling my way through the ups and downs of the energy, the beauty of wording, pictures, dialog, perceiving what holds truth for me, what makes me feel the characters deeply as real persons, I learn more for my own writing in an intuitive way then by any other method I know of, except for – of course -  writing myself!

By focussing on what I really find important in commenting, what I long for myself when people read something from me and give me their comments, I realize that it’s me who profits enormously from making the effort to comment on the work of others in the most personal and self reflecting way I’m capable of.

I am the sensor for the writer, I let them know how I have perceived their work, it’s up to them to make the choices what they do with the information I give them.

At the same time, having commented and experimented with new writing inspirations a lot in the past couple of weeks, I notice how my own writing changes. Without consciously doing anything about it, there is a new level of Diving Deeper writing happening each time I go for it.

The process of supporting what works in the writing of others seems to be sharpening and informing my creative skills on an intuitive level which goes directly into my own writing.

The other supportive suggestion that starts changing my raw, first dive in of intuitive writing is looking out for places where I want more from the writer, where I feel going deeper into one scene and slowing down, looking around, taking time would open a whole new space for the writer.

I have been getting this feedback from Sandra for over a year of writing events and I knew exactly what she meant, yet couldn’t do anything about it actively. Until lately I discover that there is a new companion looking over my shoulder when I’m diving in.

This inner voice is my writing guide. She has collected all the information I have been able to take in, and has been waiting until I was ready to leave a little space in the rush of creative explosion when I write,  so I can now hear her voice. She suggests to slow down, look around, see the girl, what does her hair look like, how does her energy show, how does the guy find his power, how does it feel… and so on. And I follow her. 

The writing process and the commenting process in Diving Deeper writing to me are inseparable.

Re: ON COMMENTING

Well, well, well, my darling Gabriele, isn't that convienent? Lost in cyberspace, eh? God bless our subconsciousii. I may be mistaken, or mad, which is a possiblity, but if my first hurried seruptitious reading at work was right, you asked Loni to rein in the length of her commentary.

You realize that this is a writing workshop and you're asking someone not to write so much? Are you sure you want to do that? By taking on the thankless task of compiling rules on commenting during these workshops, defining commentary as an art form, which by God it is, and a demanding one, you then use that conception to request that Loni not express her art in her own way? Words are work, and she worked her butt off for another person. I call that love, not breaking the rules.

Of course we don't want to hurt one another here. Ever. But do we really need all these rules? We have a format, and a sacred one, since it comes from the Mother of Sacredness herself, Sandra Jensen. I want to abide by the format, but sure don't want to talk to the art. I want to communicate with the artist. It's the soul of that artist that holds me in awe, not the art itself.

That's the difference between Diving Deeper and Paying a Thousand Bucks for a Workshop that Was Cool But Didn't Really Address the Crying Needs of My Soul. Here we don't mess with theoreticals, we dig into the meat and potatoes of one another's yearning hearts. Yum. The art is a window to our eternal souls, and every once in awhile the soul needs to be a big dickhead, just to get its ya yas out.

In my opinion if we try to eliminate all dissension or hurt, with the most positive of intentions - as I know you take your new duties very seriously, dear Gabriele, and are nothing if not a wonderful and wise human being - then we could be diving in the wrong direction. The wound is the resource.

Your Inadvertant Wounder,

Tom

Re: ON COMMENTING

I realise this is going over well-trodden ground, but I saw this crumb, I had passed over it the first time - too engaged with what *I* wanted to say.

if my first hurried seruptitious reading at work was right, you asked Loni to rein in the length of her commentary.

Tom, I'd love you to read what Gabriele said once again, slowly. And then let us know what comes. For me this is not at all what Gabriele was asking, so I'm curious, perhaps *you* had a reaction to the possibility of being 'reigned in'? mmm I feel an assignment coming on. Uh oh.  15 minutes with the words Reigned In to feed the muse… :-)

Love,
Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

Tom, buddy, I am somewhat nonplussed at your response to Gabrielle. Your tone is condescending and competitive, as if it is some sort of “gotcha” game. And then you say:

Here we don't mess with theoreticals, we dig into the meat and potatoes of one another's yearning hearts.

I am confused about this. My “yearning heart” is not a subject for your perusal. It is not a source of psychological “juice” for your consumption. What we are doing here is reflecting our responses to another person's expression in order to create feedback for them. It is essential to polish our own mirrors prior to reflection to improve the accuracy of the feedback, but the intent is not to interpret or judge content.

You are such a smart man, but seem tangled in your own projections. You appear to lack sensitivity to your own power to move others. Your words are unnecessarily challenging and hurtful.

This surprises me, because you responded with awareness and contrition when you pulled this on me. Is it possible that you owe Gabrielle an apology as well?

Gabrielle, like myself, appears to be bridging that impossible gap between the self supported by others and the truly integrated, free and spontaneous self of a fully realizing human becoming. She doesn't deserve this kind of treatment any more than I did.

I wonder if some private conversations with Sandra and your willingness to integrate this kind of feedback may help align your actions with the intentions of this pod? Please remember: we are not here to judge or interpret, only to reflect.

And it is your job to polish your own mirror, not to project your distortions.

In all other respects, Tom, you appear to be a spontaneous and lovely soul, just lacking some awareness of your boundaries, fundamentally misunderstanding the natural propensities of the human mind and failing to appreciate the devastation inadvertently created by unskilled management of our exquisitely powerful but often distorted perception.

I hope you are as much a gentleman with Gabrielle as you were with me, once you understood what a mess you had made of things…

It is not about being right, it is about being real.

Peace.

Re: ON COMMENTING

Oh Mary, am I glad to see you back! Thanks for pointing this out to me again. I've apologized to Gabriele, though not quite as profusely as I did to you, since what I did to you was from anger and this was from what I misconceived as humor.

You're right about the boundary thing. I don't know what it is with me. Somehow I assume that people will take my humor the right way, that is, the way I think they should take it. Pretty funny right. That's definitely a boundary issue.

I also have the thing going where if I love somebody I'll insult them, because I feel it makes us closer somehow, like fellow goofballs on the bowling lane of life. You know when you poke fun at somebody's foibles because you love them so? I never insult people I consider strangers.

Then there's my penchant for phraseology. That is, I would rather lay down a well-phrased sentence than say exactly what I think, since well-crafted fiction is much preferable to reality, which I don't believe in anyway. Lord knows how I ever thought the meat and potatoes line was well phrased, especially amongst veggie lovers, but I agree with you on that too. Your heart is none of my business. Yet my heart is of yours. Because that is what I'm here for, to let other people help me find my long-lost heart. I am not here for feedback, either taken or given. I am here for feed.

And you have fed my soul so much love and beauty and wisdom. And helped me find my heart. Thank you ever so much for that Mary.

I know you think I should always express myself out of concern and love for other people, and I shouldn't judge that I think you're looking at the work differently than I am, but if I'm being true to myself and others I'm not sure I'm capable of that kind of complete positive acting at all times, at least not yet. All I can do is apologize afterwards, or have somebody vette all my posts, which ain't happenin'. Thank you for taking Gabriele's side in this though. Once more you show your love and concern and bright shining soul.

I will try to be more circumspect in the future.

Thanks Bud,

Tom

PS. Good luck getting me not to judge and interpret. I think that must be your issue. How can we not?

Re: ON COMMENTING

Mary,

You wrote:

I wonder if some private conversations with Sandra and your willingness to integrate this kind of feedback may help align your actions with the intentions of this pod? Please remember: we are not here to judge or interpret, only to reflect.

And it is your job to polish your own mirror, not to project your distortions.

In all other respects, Tom, you appear to be a spontaneous and lovely soul, just lacking some awareness of your boundaries, fundamentally misunderstanding the natural propensities of the human mind and failing to appreciate the devastation inadvertently created by unskilled management of our exquisitely powerful but often distorted perception.

I hope you are as much a gentleman with Gabrielle as you were with me, once you understood what a mess you had made of things…

It is not about being right, it is about being real.



This all occurs for me as judgment and interpretation. Especially the entire paragraph beginning with, “In all other respects, Tom, you appear to be a spontaneous and lovely soul,” These are not facts. They are made up. I have it that you made up that Tom is spontaneous and lovely in the same way that you made up that his perception of Gabriele is 'distorted'.

I don't want to leave you with “She's angry,” or “She thinks I am wrong.” That is not the case. I have no problem with judgments. I make them all the time. My request is that you be clear when distinguishing the word 'reflect' so that I have an opportunity to get into your world.

I was left with the experience of talking about, and reading judgments and interpretations with the word 'reflect' thrown in.

I request that you be clear about what reflect means for you, and then relate that in such a way that I will get it. Will you accept my request?

Re: ON COMMENTING

Mary, Tom, Loni.

I have to leave in a few minutes, and so am unable to give this new thread-within-a-thread its due consideration.

No one is “right” here. All we have is what is. Can we be with what is, as Helen so beautifully explores in Mushin's blog Defuse Me.?

And just because no one is 'right' here, does not mean there is not something to look at.

Tom, more than once here people have responded to your words in a way that is commonly called 'negatively'.  I appreciate your response to Mary, your willingness to hear.

Mary, I liked what you wrote to Tom.  That he responded in the way he did tells me that you spoke in a way that reached him.

And I also would have liked more of your process: your wishes/desires in terms of how we are to be together to be included as yours, rather than a statement of fact. And, at the same time, I applaud your courage in coming out so directly, being willing to stand in the firing-line.

Loni - I agreed with what you wrote to Mary, and as with her, I would have liked more of your process included. How you felt reading her, rather than what you thought was the 'right' thing. You say you are not angry, and yet this is how the words land. I suspect you were trying to be clear.

Believe me I struggle here - one half of me is 100% sure I 'KNOW”, and can see how it is or should be for others, with others. Often, when I try to be 'clear' about what I know, I end up being 'cool' ( cold ).

The other half, also 100% says: I do not know.

I do not want to 'clip' anyone's wings here. I want to support us all to say what we feel, no matter how it comes out, no matter how uncomfortable the possible consequences. I want to support us to be willing to read our own words as if we have written them for oursleves, and to come back, and share that experience.

I'd like us to keep reminding ourselves of the following possibilities:

- What I see in another is in me.
- What I say to another, is for me.
- What I want from another, is what I want from myself.

And, last, but most definitely not least:

- Everything I do and think affects everyone, everything.

What comes to me right now, is for a space of silence.  ( Yes, sorry, I know I just had 'my say'…).

That we sit together, albeit in this virtual space, crossing time-zones and no doubt a few other zones too. 

Let us enter the We Space of what I call deep listening.

Listening.

Breathing.

Listening.

Breathing.

Can you hear the sound of your breath?

Can you hear the sound of Mary's breath?

Tom's?

Loni's?

Gabriele's?




Later, If there is something to share, about your experience during this deep listening, please do.


~ Love and support to all,
Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

dear ones, all of you,

reading the recent responses, it becomes obvious that I have left some 'unfinished business' here. I was not aware of the fact that whatever we publish here is almost like carved in stone, it doesn't go away, and even if we move on, others might stumble over whatever we have said and done somewhere.

my part in all of this is that I have a very strong pattern of retreat when I feel hurt. I often don't go into direct contact and tell the other, in this case Tom, what has touched me how. I don't stay present and I don't stay in contact. that's an observation. I wish I would do things differently, but that's what I'm struggling with.

there has been an email exchange between me and Tom after I read how worried he was that he might have hurt me.

late, but fortunately never too late, for any new reader coming to this thread, let me put my email to Tom here, the one I wrote after I had left my black hole and even had written a piece of NEWS about it, which was a great experience for me.

here comes my email.

dear Tom,

yes it's true, I've gone somewhere. ;)

it is also true that your comment on commenting has triggered a very painful place in me and made my bubble burst. it did have a little fissure already by then, but reading you I went over the edge.

and that's really all that happened. I do take things like that very personally when they occur, but it doesn't last, and with you not long at all. I don't really think 'you hurt me'. 

these crashes keep happening, and if there's no one to trigger any pain in me, I have them anyway and feel like shit for no obvious 'reason'. it's been a strong experience and I've reacted in my familiar pattern of retreat and cutting myself off, and even that was ok. there was something different in the end, when I was able opening up and writing from that place.

I love the phrase “use it for your art”, what ever it may be.

no harm done, Tom. I'm back and fine.

sending love,
Gabriele


for me, the lesson in this is  to find a more appropriate way of dealing with these disturbences in me when they occur. believe me, my husband also would be extremely greatful if I managed to change that pattern into staying present and in contact! :)

with love to all,
Gabriele

Re: ON COMMENTING

What am I supposed to say, Loni? Tom was browbeating someone's creative effort. I responded with my impression. It was not a critique of his writing, which would call for reflection of impression, but a comment on his criticism of another, which follows different standards. Perhaps I overstepped my boundaries. Or perhaps you overstep yours. Who can say, and what does it matter in the end?

All I know is that I am tired of argument, tired of hurting.  If you recall, it was my being reamed by Tom that started this whole thing, and I feel humiliated enough having that exchange broadcast for all to peruse and analyze. Then I step up in defense of another's creative effort, and I get criticized for not satisfying your standards of clarity.

I can't remember why I wanted to be here right now. I guess I thought it would be fun, maybe I would find someplace I belonged, someplace I wouldn't be afraid to be myself.  But it is just another sword on which to skewer myself, it seems. 

I am tired of hurting. I need peace, and safety, Loni. Not a war of words. 

Re: ON COMMENTING

I know what you mean about peace and safety, Mary. We all want that, I'm sure. Thanks for having the gumption to stand up and say what you feel, even if it seems hopeless.

I think we've all been mirrors for one another here and now maybe we can step back and say Namaste (if we speak French anyway) and let it go in love. Maybe it can become safer here. We all want it to be safe and supportive. I know I try to be supportive, yet sometimes I fail. But having you here, Mary, has helped me learn and grow and see how I can hurt people. I'll still fail, in many ways I'm sure, but thanks to you I'll fail less.

At least, than is my plan and hope.

God Bless,

Tom

Re: ON COMMENTING

Dear Mary,

I do not know what you are supposed to say. It seems my request has been received as some sort of an attack. That is not the intention with which it was sent, but that is how things happen in the world, yes?

I often get so caught up in being misunderstood that I forget that my intentions do not matter if pain was caused. I am making an effort not to do that now. So, please let me apologize for any uncomfortable feelings I may have incited. I can see that my words were not taken well. We do not know each other well, and it was a bit presumptuous of me to assume that you would immediately catch my tone, and know that it is just the way I talk and not the way I talk when I am angry.

I was actually asking, in the spirit of the original conversation, for clarification on what you look for in a comment. I used your comment as an example because it was readily available and not because of any personal anger or offense that the comment caused for me. Basically, I just wanted to know how 'reflections of impressions' differ from 'impressions'.

It was my intention to have a conversation that might expand my knowledge of and ability to comment. I want very much to comment in an effective and supportive way, and am always looking for some new insight on the subject. I thought 'On Commenting' was as good a place to have that conversation as any.

I did not mean to make you feel like you were not clear enough in your original comment to Tom. I did not mean to say, “You NEED to be more clear.” My communication was meant to request further clarity, not an infusion of something that was lacking.

I had no knowledge, nor do I now, of your original exchange with Tom. My comment was not meant to be personal or to reference anything but the difference between reflections and impressions that I am unclear on. If I phrased it in a way that made it appear personal or referential I apologize again.

I hope that this creates a more inviting world for you to share your ideas, and values in. That was my original intent. If I failed in my original attempt, I failed. If this does not come across as loving and clear I will attempt anew, or shut my trap at your request.

In any case I appreciate your honesty, and willingness to communicate through what you perceived to be an attack on your communications. Many a strong woman would not have come this far in the conversation. So, simultaneously,

I apologize and I thank you,

Loni

Re: ON COMMENTING

I would like to add my two bits at this point, which is to simply bring our attention to the fact that we are attempting to communicate using a medium that is very very limited. I don't know the specific statistics, but when we are together in 'real life' the much larger part of how we communicate is not through the words we use, but through our body language, tone of voice, energy fields etc.

For me it is exciting to see if we can tune in across the medium, with the medium, in the same way that we do in person. It does mean taking more time when we sit and read someone's words, it does mean taking more time when we respond back. It is so easy to press 'send' to things we would never do in person.

My sister-in-law is 'high up' in government. She spearheaded a Harvard study on email interaction in businesses. What she found was shocking. People said things they didn't mean, got angry at things that were not in fact said etc etc. In one situation the company had to disconnect their employees from the internet.

I've been emailing since I was 16. That's nearly 30 years. I have learned a lot over these 30 years, and the main thing I have learned is not to take *anything* anyone writes to me on email personally.

Oh I do, but I don't engage with the part of me that is taking it personally. I just watch: Ah, there's that bit feeling hurt and upset or angry or wanting it a different way, there's me wanting to be seen, heard or whatever.

If something someone writes to me is triggering, I do not respond immediately. Ever. I go away, maybe talk it through with someone, or simply come back the next day and have another read. If I have a response, I do not send it immediately. I wait a while. Nearly always my feelings settle, and I see with clearer eyes  & heart - even if all I see is that I simply don't know what the other person really meant or felt when they wrote what they did.

If I do interact, and it seems to stay 'stuck' via email, I pick up the telephone.

Now we are not going to be doing that much here, ( picking up telephones), but I do want to underline how easy it is to come across 'differently' to how you mean to here in digi-land; how easy it is to 'react' and write something and hit send from behind the safety of your computer, when you might do something very different in real life.

And of course, what goes on here mirrors the miscommunication we have when we are together, it's not just happening via email/internet community interfaces.

I try to ask myself, when I'm in a 'sticky' communication, what is my intent here? Is it to 'heard'? Is it to be seen, or thought of well, or liked? Is it to prove a point? I let these questions sit gently, opening windows to what is arising. I try not to 'do' anything with what arises, just watch, and be 'with'.

I keep bringing myself back to what is happening within me. My feelings, my sensations. This is why I love the Byron Katie work, and highly recommend it to all of us here on Diving Deeper. It is a written practise… and free. All you need to know is on the website. Do not just read 'about' it, do it. Do the writing. It is a very simple and effective process.


I appreciate all the voices here in this dialogue.

And yes, Mary, it should be fun here :-) this is a rather serious thread. It doesn't have to be. I would love you to post your wonderful poetry and other work up, and same for you Loni…

If we get stuck in our comments, we can return here to discuss what happened, but for now I'd so much like to read more writing. Even better, to turn your experience on this thread into creative work.  Read your own posts. Choose a line or a couple of words that jump out at you, and write for 20 minutes on it. See what happens. I would so appreciate to see this work.

With love,
Sandra

p.s. Sorry. Two bits? I gotta be kidding.

Re: ON COMMENTING

Mary, Tom, Loni, Gabriele, Sandra:

Unreel this in your mind’s-eye theater, folks: we’re sitting around a table with the beverage of our choice having this same discussion and we can read each other’s body language, catch the arch of an eyebrow or the beginnings of a smile. We would most likely be laughing our heads off. As Sandra suggests, this is one of the severe limitations of this medium. Most communication is non-verbal and here we are, in essence, criticizing one another’s children. We’re doing the best we can with the tools that we’ve got, and some have more facility than others but no one, I firmly believe, has come here with malicious intent. If you inadvertantly hurt me with your remarks, I hereby forgive you in advance, and I hope you’ll do the same for me. I’m leaving myself open because I trust and like you all very much and I feel a genuine sense of kinship with you. Will this journey make us better writers? I hope so, but I really don’t know. But if we keep our minds and hearts open we can’t help becoming fuller, richer people.

Burt

Re: ON COMMENTING

Your postings make me laugh - in this serous matter, Jesus! This is a wonderful discussion. And Tom… diving in wrong direction? Huh, man, we're still diving aren't we *LOL*? All the angels and dickheads together.

Diving… why are we not flying? Getting higher? We could go left we could go right, do hard landings and some soft ones - on cloud's.

But we are going somewhere, in deed.

What I believe Sandra means is that when we focus on the good stuff, telling to the writer that “I want more of this” or “slow down here, tell more” then the writer start's to give the readers what they want and the less important (crap) falls off by it's own later on. This method, this breast feeding, gives the writer enormous powers and flow to write so their keyboard start to smoke and burn.

In some cases, not with all person's, commenting every single comma can make the writer so uncertain so it stop their flow. They feel that they do bad job and quit.

Well, see you around here my beloved fellow divers. Let's write!

Love,

Nono

Re: ON COMMENTING

Well, wow. What can I say. I find this a remarkable thread and I don't know where to begin..
A very large part of me would like your fabulous post, Nono, to be the last and final word.

Yes, Let's write!

I suggest that all of you who read these words I'm writing right now go to The Assignment Archives, and choose an assignment you have not done, and do it.

And THEN, come back and read further, if you are still interested. Our Critic ( the one that holds us back, not the useful one) is devious and tricky, this little gremlin will use any means to divert you from writing. “But this is important”, it will whisper gently into your ear, ”It's interesting”, it will whisper into the other, ”And besides which, you aren't really in the mood for writing, are you? And you know that what you write will be questionable, so why bother. Tomorrow is another day… you can always write tomorrow.. ”

So. Tune in. Are you reading this to avoid writing?

If the answer from your Muse is a clear 'No', I still suggest you go to the Archive and do at least 20 minutes of writing before returning here.

Re: ON COMMENTING

Tom, I meant to include this from you:

In my opinion if we try to eliminate all dissension or hurt, with the most positive of intentions.. then we could be diving in the wrong direction. The wound is the resource.

Re: ON COMMENTING

I am currently in the wake of an Aha! moment. A lot of the things that Gabriele and Sandra talk about have long been beliefs that I hold, or at least understand.

I kept reading along and going “I get that! Yes, yes, I agree. Oh, I see that part a bit differently but I understand what she means.”

This was my inner dialogue until….BAM!…I remembered what context we are talking about them in and realized with some surprise that while I have always held dear the use of disappearing 'bad' and 'wrong', 'good' and 'right'….while I have always thought that our experience of life was determined by our focus…..Never have I ever applied these principles to writing, anyone elses' or my own.

Isn't that the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard? I can not stop smiling at myself. Anyway, I took Sandra's advice and have done some bad writing that I suppose I might as well post as not. I will be back to read more of this thread later and maybe respond further.

You are all so beautiful,

Loni

Re: ON COMMENTING

You are all so beautiful,

I have heard it said that what we see in another can exists in ourselves… in this case I am absolutely certain it's true.

Thank you for being such an open being, dear Loni. Thank you for your listening. In your listening fields of flowers grow…

~ Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

Such marvelous work/play Sandra, and everybody in this thread, thank you! I read your blog posting Sandra, and totally resonate (okay, with some fearful under-buzzes) with the concept of creating a “WEI” space, as Sharon puts it, where a bunch of I's form a WE that is kind of a giant I in itself.

Count me in!

We-ward we go!

Your discussion of writing techniques is fab, all except for the part about not editing (tee hee).

Love,

Tom

Re: ON COMMENTING

OH, I love that. A WEI space.
yes!

And About Editing… actually there's lots to say about this…. (of course!)

The main thing in my Diving Deeper process is: do not edit while you write. Do not edit the day of writing. I'd strongly suggest you don't edit for days/months, years even. Put it away. Then take another look. Always keep a copy of the original.

If you do some Diving Deeper writing and want to post it here, you can make minor edits to spelling etc. But, in some, possibly most, cases ( eg Loni's fabulous piece), it's actually a good idea to let it stand, as it is written. You can also post an edited version, but I'd love to see the raw material. Something happens when you let your writing be seen naked, untouched. Something happens when you allow the words to stay on the page exactly as they come out. My preference is that we all take this risk, over and over again, until it is no longer a fear-ward issue.

Thanks for your support dear Tom.

Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

Ok. We-ward we go!

It took me a day or two to dive into the coral reefs of all that’s written here.  As I dive, deeper and deeper, extracting raw pearls & golden nuggets from this thread, I pop up to the surface almost gasping for my next deep breath. I have taken one. I think it is powerful in its complex simplicity. Let’s see if I can lay it out on this page.

I write. I’m not exactly sure why. I know it started long ago. I’m not at all sure how to write properly or for what purpose writing serves in my life. I just write. Privately, almost always privately, this is and has been not only my experience with writing but my promise – a promise made in secret, a dedication of commitment and protection – I promised my muse that I would let her be if she would source me to write for my healing.

Here comes the breath…

~It was a lie!

She never needed my protection. I needed her’s.

the truth? -the bloody, raw, unpleasant truth? My ego is a wordiholic. I suffer my muse to deal me an ever deeper fix. She is not the fearful ego, I am.  I am afraid of not getting what I want, desperately in need of healing. I use my muse for healing, my healing.

She’s grown tired of my narcissism, my incestuous private affair and has suffocated in seclusion for far too long.  She, frankly, doesn’t give a shit about the rules, the fame, or the published status. But I do. I dream of applause. I edit and correct and labor her to death for even the slightest accolade or brief comment. She doesn’t give a crap about flowers, sunsets and pretty pictures growing from her words so I can be seen and admired. But I do. I’ve even been known to pout for months and stomp about the floor like a foolish adolescent when I don’t get the strokes this addiction craves.

I told myself my role was to keep her safe -safe from the critics, the naysayer’s sword and the vultures that might steal her words and fashion them for profit. The best way to let her be – to keep her gifts pure and rich and alive and abundant was to hide from the reader.

But she has almost died a hundred times since she first arrived so many years ago. {I can feel her bones ache even as I lay that line upon this page}

Her only passion is to come alive in the ear and the heart and the belly of her reader. And I must climb into the writing deeper ~ climb over the precipice of 'good writing’ because I am the greatest force fighting against that passion -NOT the reader.  *Notice even the singular tense I use. I wonder if she would write the word ‘readers’.  

Yes. I have labored to write this entry. I’ve spent all morning

Type, read delete type cut, paste delete backspace cut delete damn the red line perfection no that isn’t it, that’s not what I meant, ok that is what I meant but it sounds so stupid, wait I see another place where “m unclear, clarity is vital, don’t you know that, don’t you see how important it is for to write well, you have to get it! The reader must get me! I mean the message I mean message get the message can you hear the message, the last 30 seconds have moved so fast, I’ve never type so hard, wait I mean fast, damn it! Can’t you hear me! I not invisible. I must be with We I am so alone without the words of my muse… pause, stop, just stop and let her write awhile. Ok?

“OK”

(tears fall as exhale)

ok  

Re: ON COMMENTING

Wow Synerjyz…

What an honest posting, I really like really honest and brave people and you just did such a posting dear Synerjyz.
This place is truly magic don't you think? Just looking around how much honest diving we all have done lately, one after another. Fearless divings, leaving the fear behind.
To let go is a very tuff and overwhelming feeling and letting go your ego… that's god damn honest. Now we will probably see another kind of Synerjyz in the future, shortly inhaling and diving back again. YES girl! Liberate your muse.

Love,

Nono

Re: ON COMMENTING

Synergyz. I'm with you all the way. All the wei.
I am you, your muse is mine.
I too  dream of applause, yes I do. I've stuffed my Muse into a cupboard most of my life, told myself she'll be there when I need her, she won't go away. She'll wait until I'm ready. Wait until I'm ready? In the dark? Suffocating? While I feed her lies? I”m too tired, too sick, too busy, I don't have the right 'space', I don't have enough money, What's the point? and so on ad infinitum. And then the the tale that I use most of all: I'm not good enough. If I don't write, no-one will know.

I did not let my Muse be, I put her in a prison. I still do. I let her out now and then, but I put her back in more often than not.

And still she waits, patiently. I can feel her breath on my cheek, I can smell her violet eyes.

We are not alone dear Synerjyz. If I know one thing, it is this. You fly right through your words on my MacBook screen, shining so brightly the room shimmers.

I want to write Love, but the word seems so skeletal here in black and white. I could colour it but my palette is too limited. 70 colours to choose from, none of them enough.

I will hum it instead, across the cybervibes, from me to you and you to me and back again, gathering up all the Wes along the Way.

~ Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

Synerjyz,

God bless your ego. If that's what it took to get to us the magnificent outpouring of wonder, truth, and marvel that you just gifted us, then so be it. I don't really care. All I care about is what I see, and what I see is magic. You did it, perfectly, even though the process sucked. What does that mean?

Good thing you like suffering, eh? Or you'd never put up with what it took to create what you just did, regardless of the method. God bless all artists. We are sufferin' machines!

Sandra's method is the key, a way to learn trust, and the beginning of all beginnings for this playshop. But sometimes we can't be as imperfect as we want to be.

As long as we're Diving Deeper, I might suggest cave-diving your ego, which is obviously a grand & glorious place! Glittery. Powerful, at least, and ambitious, as egos so charmingly tend to be.

Thank you for the diamond-clear vision of your struggle, Karen Lynn (which I would rather call you since I have a difficult time spelling your nickname, my hands kind of go spastic on the keyboard), your facets reflect off mine and bring me light. When you share your truth, it opens up mine.

(good lies, too…no wonder you enjoy fiction so much)

Love and Gratitude,

Tom

Re: ON COMMENTING

I'm reading Ray Bradbury's Zen and the Art of Writing  (highly recommended).
He has a bit on the Muse.
He reminded me that the Muse lives on experience.  Every moment of our living experience - (all that is felt, sensed, thought, seen, imagined, nightmared..) is her nourishment.

~ Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

Then I'd have to say this workshop is one amazing muse, or at the very least, a cornucopia of delights with which to regale her, a feast beyond imagining.

Re: ON COMMENTING

I second the one Tom,

So for all the mighty musing
attracting more of itself  &
unfolding the suprise in each delicious moment
Wei are here together
capturing the fireflys of what's next in every humble post,
I bow
in a deep reverent pause
for the sacred in our communion.
May the blessing grace of our experience together here
Draw an ever greater deepening
in our hai dives.

~Karen Lynn, The Wordicle

Re: ON COMMENTING

pheeewww!  I just read this thread and think a lot.  I wouldn't dare possibly comment on all we have to say about commenting, but as it pertains to this post, I will use the suggestions we have to one another on commenting to do some of my own.

As inspiration I must start with responding to the last idea that resonnates on limited color and limited muse.  It is ironic that when general masses consider art they picture pictures.  We as writers even often do the same although we are blessed so by not being restrained by formation of visuals with limited resources.  If there are only 70 colors and it is up to the artist to manipulate them uniquely, we are so blessed that we have an infinate resource of words and languages to utilize in expression.  We create images through ideas, not through visual sensory input.  How cool is that?  Our muse is endless, we can use ALL our senses for inspiration.
On this idea of art and art, writing vs. visual, if you haven't before, check ou tHarry Noden's Brushstrokes tehcniques.  It is somethign I use with students to explain how grammar can be a wonderful adn creative tool, it is NOT just rules and restrictions.  Yes, I agree Loni that a perfectly placed semi-colon is well worth its wieght. =)

Next, I would like to share what I tell my studetns in regards to editing/peer review.  I believe there is a genuine difference between proofreading and editing.  Proofreading = surface level errors such as punctuation, spelling, etc.
Editing= commenting on content.  I believe here in diving deeper we can edit but should refrain from proofreading.  I agree with several comments above that when we comment we should avoid directly targeting the author in relation to the text.  When studying historical classics we can not assume authors are speaking of thier own expeireinces or are sharing their own beleifs.  We can however decipher that one's experiences adn knowledge influences the background views of their characters, but does not define them.
I do also agree that we should respond to others by sharing how their writing makes us think adn feel.  What does it draw out in us? (thank you sandra) That is where the power is, the way the reader connects to a piece is essentially what defines its worth, no?  When we critique we should give examples of what works for that piece, and ask for more of it, point out areas of confusion but do not define them as weaknesses.

Just a little thought from some of my experiences with writing and workshopping.

Also just wanted to say how blessed I feel to have found this pod!

Re: ON COMMENTING

Welcome to the gang, Lynn, a whole lot. That you took the time to read this entire thread shows how committed you are to the process of diving deeper into your art and your Self. I can guarantee you this is a wonderland of humanity. It's like a little magic crystal hidden in the wondrous depths of Zaadz.

We are really lucky to be here. At least me and you for sure I know of, since you just said it. I will let the others speak for themselves, which they do so masterfully/pupilfully.

Hang On!

Tom

Re: ON COMMENTING

I ditto Tom, dear Lynn. Thanks for reading all this and adding your voice of support & clarifying some areas.

The distinction between editing and proofreading is excellent.

We create images through ideas, not through visual sensory input.

I paused here, wondering if I agreed.

When I write I let myself see/feel/hear/think/smell as if I'm right there, in whatever scene has arisen for me.

I try to stay away from ideas - as I write. This is not quite true, if I'm writing fiction I have one foot in an 'idea' camp, and another foot in the not knowing being right there camp.

It is my experience that the more we write from our own personal experience, thus having both feet in the being-right-there camp, the easier it is to write fiction which feels 'real'.

I'm off on a tangent - not directed at what you wrote.

I mostly wanted to stop by and say thank you.

~ Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING - and commenting to the comments

This is a copy from this thread that should be read as it 'shows' what I'm writing about.

I realise again and again that this online workshop is very different to my 'live' workshops. In my live workshops, the writing is read out by me, anonymously. The writer simply listens and makes no answer whatsoever to the feedback that is given by the others, who give feedback on the writing as per my guidelines (ie not talking about the author, but the writing and the characters in the writing). I tried to simulate this experience in the anonymous postings, however I also feel there is a positive aspect to the 'communal' sharing with each other that takes place on the non-anonymous postings.

I also see from this thread that if we are to maintain the supportive aspect of not giving 'sympathy' or other opinions to the writer as if the work is about them, then it is helpful if we as the writer return comments about how what is said supports them as a writer, or their writing, rather than themselves as their beings. Good lord I'm having a hard time expressing something that I think is very simple (I've just heard that the apartment I've been waiting on for 2 weeks is ours, Yay!!!).

I loved Sea's new  thread about the healing aspect of story telling. We are doing this all the time here, even if the work we share is completely fictional ( I don't believe there is such a thing actually, anything we write is about ourselves in some way or another).

I have experienced this healing so many times I know the truth of it. And part of the healing does seem to be absolutely connected to being with 'the work' - the 'story' as if it is a piece of art. We listen, we take it in. It changes us. We don't need to say anything to the story-teller, and in fact this can take away the power of the story if we say too much, and it can also take away the power of the story if the person who wrote it says too much about it on a personal level.

it seems to me that the story itself has a life of its own, as if it is a kind of angelic being that arises out of our souls , and stands free and independent - a balm and a wisdom for all, the writer/speaker/the listeners. If we were a 'live' group of course there would be words, but most of the words would probably be hums of appreciation. And yes, we are here to discover not only our deep stories, but also to craft those stories so they speak as brightly as they can. So we do talk about 'what works' and how to get 'closer in', or how to bring to life the story a little more.

I'm rambling – mainly what I'm saying is that in our comments and our 'comments back' to the comments, stay with the 'writing' - and the healing happens on a very very deep level. I feel that this underground level is like playing with the unconscious - we cannot do this face on, the deep things inside of ourselves hide and twist and turn if we are to forthright and aggressive. But by staying with the writing, they can uncoil, release, unfold.

It is a little like being with cats, if you know cats… come up to them as if they are a rock and they will shy away. But come up to them as if you might be  doing something else altogether, they will roll over and show you their softunderbellies.

I will copy this thread to “On Commenting” - and I'd like any response to it to go there, and keep the rest of this space for Marlene's post.

Love,
Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING

I briefly glanced over this ‘On Commenting’ when I got to Zaadz in June but never took the time to ingest the whole thing. It appears the subject matter I brought up, in “Our Treasury of Stories” has been, if not thoroughly explored, certainly examined thoughtfully and with much brilliance from the contributors. The only discussion left would be the spirituality aspect. My small thoughts put forward encompass only a fraction of what was said here and needs no expounding upon, though thank you Sandra for making note of it. Where have these other gifted writers (among many), Synerjyz, Loni & Lynn gone. Did everyone leave after this. This massive leap of confrontation, honesty and still belief in one another through pain startled me. I have fed my heart through reading this thread. Not the anger but the raw willingness to explore beyond the boundaries of comfort. All because of Mary’s leap, Derby Day Noodle’s, incredible writing by a gifted writer who managed with grace, who knew, dear Mary, it would have far reaching effects to the heart of another months later. As Gabrielle said, written in stone, stumbled upon later. Is that the spiritual connection?

After reading all that was said in the “On Commenting,” the authenticity of every voice and the ability to argue, the self honesty, the quality and sophistication of the writing. I learned so much from each posting, which I have spent the afternoon reading several times, and I could cry with lack. I cannot argue without being distortedly wounded. I cannot face myself with such honesty. To see myself in such a way and admit it is like cracking my ribs open without anesthetic. Like Loni says, i can not go far in disagreement, I can not argue with words so fluently, they get tied up in my head. This thread exposed the artificialness, the mannequin – much thinking to do – I could thank with flowery phrases, I could stop looking in the mirror that has been held up, again Dorian Grey seems to play. Synerjyz’s second to last entry – It was a lie, gave my ego pause, another stone spirit hurled into the future.

Just Plain Writing
Sea

Re: ON COMMENTING

“Thank you for wondering where I have gone. I was wondering, too,” was all she could muster for today, but it was something! It was a sentence, after all. It was past-tense.

Re: ON COMMENTING

I knew I was missing a bunch of very valuable stuff by not coming here more often lately.
 
Sea, so sorry it took us so long to respond to your barbaric yawp. It can hurt when one yawps from the depths of one's soul and all that comes back is echoes.

Spirituality is central to what we do here, if not everything and all. Our words are silver threads that keep us connected as One Soul searching for itself. Such truth and terror cannot be faced without Spirit. I don't have answers, but am loaded with questions. First of which: What of Spirit?

God bless you Loni Love, for coming back!!! One good thing about being a writer: if you aren't writing, you can always read, and that's almost as good.

Love,

Tom

Re: ON COMMENTING

yes Tom  …

                       and to read you hearten's my soul in a way you couldn't even begin to imagine friend … I miss you on the pod more than words can say … and yes, I read all the time Master.

Jim x

ps, of course, that's a hint and maybe even a push to all of the rest of the poets and writers … don't be timid … dive … what have you got to lose except perhaps some air.

Re: ON COMMENTING

Big YES to reading.  Isn't it fun that reading is part of our 'work'? what a gift! (and quite frankly, in my, ahem, book, a prerequisite to the art. life and craft of being a writer).

I'd love for people to share novels / memoirs that have inspired them re writing (on the Tree House? ).

xo


And to add, that there is now an On Giving Constructive Criticism thread, which outlines more articulately and clearly some of what has been brought up here, and opens up the possibility of a deeper 'commenting' on work.