ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

“I found myself once or twice during the read pulling on my editorial hat and then I realized, holy shit, the free fall method of writing applies to reading too! You have to take off the editorial hat even when you're reading, go completely nude-head, bare-head naked, so the words don't have time to lodge in your brain but sail right into your heart. Then you can read it true. If the editorial voice butts in during the first read, you lose the magic. You have to give up control as a reader too, let the song of the sound carry you where it will. Judgement kills, not only teenager's egos, but artistic communication between souls. You judge art by living it and you can only live it if you let it in.”

When we read prose or poetry pieces that are written in the first person, we also don't know if it is the voice of the 'writer', the memories of the writer. Even if we are sure it's autobiographical, we don't know that, and even if it is stated to be autobiographical, we still don't know if what we are told happened  'really happened'.

In fact , when you comment on the work, it's far more useful to everyone to assume that what is written has nothing to do with the writer. Ignore the fact that the 'writer' is listening here.  Let the work stand by itself, and if you comment, say what is it about the writing that makes you feel excited, bored, interested, happy, angry and so on.  If you are confused, see if you can say what it is in the writing that confused you. Your feeling of confusion may be exactly what the writer is intending - or it may simply be that the writer needed to “open up” an area.

If you do not link the work to the author in your comments, the writer is able to sit back and receive the comments without having to justify, explain, thank etc.

I often talk about how writing is deeply connected to our selves, our souls, our life journey. Poetry seems to express this journey more baldly sometimes than 'fiction' or other writing - but in fact it is no different.

I have found it deeply supportive to this journey to treat the writing as 'art' - rather than as therapy. In other words, I do not go into the writer's personal process much - not directly. The writing does this, all by itself. I might make suggestions that lead the writer more closely to places where they fear to tread, or where the 'treasure' is (in my humble opinion), but I've learned, and am still learning, to stay away from connecting the 'work' directly to personal process, to the writer. We go far deeper this way, simply by looking at the writing, by letting the story stand by itself.

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Nicely said, Sandra.

Too bad we can't do readarounds together with munchables and appropriate beverages.

After watching (and participating) in on- and offline critique for some 20 years now, I hear you all around the question, and right in the heart of the matter.

Was it Capote who said of Mailer, “That man is a typist?”

I can't remember, but it sounds like Truman,

John

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Thanks, John (and for making me laugh!).

Yes I totally agree about the readarounds… and munchables. Can we have virtual munchables? I guess not…

I wish I could wave a wand and have all of you attend my workshops this year. We need to find 'investors' for all this fabulous talent.

In the workshops I actually read out the writing of the participants anonymously.

It's hard to describe how effective this is.  The person who wrote the piece does not have to put any energy in engaging with the people who comment on it ( saying 'thank you' or trying to explain something etc) - they are totally free to simply listen and receive. The other thing which happens hearing the work read out by someone else is that the writer is  able to  'hear' the work as if it is 'outside' of themselves - and therefore appreciate it more (and if the work is personal, this process seems to have an added effect of supporting healing & letting go). I can't quite understand how this happens, but it does.

Perhaps if there are some of you in the same area you can get together for reads? There is, for example, an ongoing Diving Deeper support group in Berlin…. :-)

Love,
Sandra

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

You seem to have a very big heart Sandra and I believe it is reflected not just in your writing, but in the entire, let's say spirit, of the pod….And I'm happy to be a part of it.

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Thanks Jordan :-) Methinks that it is also people like you who takes the time to actually read things and post that make this pod what it is.
Much love,
Sandra

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

I love this list of how-to's for tuning into commenting on somebody elses work. frankly, to me it might as well be a list on how to be in my daily life! great inspiration and reminder.

I'm very glad there has been an assignment that makes anonymous commenting possible here on the pod. it's what I really have come to appreciate strongly in the Diving Deeper events with Sandra.

during the events, in the intensitiy of writing for days, being in a focussed group and all of  life about nothing but the process, often the most intense and surprising writing occurs and will be exposed to the group.

keeping the comments to the text and respecting the anonymity of the author is, as I see it,  what creates the safe space to have this material come up in the first place. even if the text seems to have a name tag to it, so obvious the voice, it's a gift of love to focus on the material instead and pretend to not know about the author.

plus, you never know for sure - every I-character can be a work of fiction, what seems like fiction can be a memoir… it  doesn't matter. what matters is to let the author know what worked, what was touched, what thoughts or questions arose about the writing.

I've had anonymous feedback that opened a whole new level of the experience I had been writing about, making me see different possibilities of what things might 'mean' - I hadn't meant them like that, but hearing from others what they saw and felt and concluded was fascinating and shameful at the same time.

it is incredible intense to hear your own work read out by someone else - having it read out by Sandra, by the way, is like a cherry on the top, because she's a fabulous reader!

having a whole group of people sitting with you in that space, hearing their comments after the reading, to me is the key piece ot the events (apart from writing your ass off the other half of the day,  for having something to be read out and comment on in the first place!)

to me it's a gift we make to our writing selves by giving it all this space and support and time and energy for opening a whole new level of experience and perception.

once you've sat in that circle, having had your opening of your vein read out by Sandra to the group, you'll appreciate the concept of anonymous commenting, take my word for it!

I wish we could do this intense circle work here, too, but the possibilities of an online community, sadly, are limited, though we keep trying to get as close as we can.

if there is any chance any of you will do one of the Diving Deeper events coming up soon, don't miss it!

(since I'd love to meet as many of you as possible in person, as unlikely as it seems, try to make it possible to come to a Berlin event, please!

:)

still one of my favorite topics, commenting. and anonymous commenting even more. I've come a long way, and the road ahead is disappearing into the horizon, there doesn't seem to be an end to it. luckily.

with love,
Gabriele

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Thank you Sandra, for this super-clear exposition of your wonderful style of constructive criticism. Hope it's in your book on writer's groups. It's such a fine line to walk to help, as you say. Our most important task here, in my opinion, is support of one another as creative beings and spiritual walkers, so I don't do much “constructive criticism”, that focuses on what I might perceive as weaknesses. Remember what happened when Islandman dipped his toe into that chilly sea? I was mostly just amazed at his bravery to do that. I believe in the need for constructive criticism, though, very much, and using your points is very helpful, especially here, where we don't have the physical presence.

And thanks, Gabriele, for the peek into the groups. Sounds like a marvelous experience. I would pay cash money to hear Sandra read my work. Like playing a hoedown on a Stradavarius. I wonder about anonymity, though. A big part of why I write is because I'm a big fat showoff. My ego needs the game.

Pretty pathetic, I know. It would be an interesting trip into a new world, one of Sandra's workshops.

Love and Appreciation,

Tom

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

hi Tom, I loved reading this from you, especially

“…I wonder about anonymity, though. A big part of why I write is because I'm a big fat showoff. My ego needs the game.”

yeah, I know, I have that part, too. BIG ego. ;)

But. (my HAI!)

there comes a time in Diving Deeper, and especially during the events when we do nothing but diving and writing, sooner or later things will come to surface we wouldn't have dreamt we'd put out. things that feel too awful, shameful, violent, sexual, whatever it is that we think we can't bear or won't show anyone, things that have had power over us for years, maybe decades, without us thinking of them consciously, or running from them, drowning them, drugging them burying them in food and fat and whatever the drug of the choice might be.

yet the writing might feel to dull, too boring, too this and too that while we're doing it, or  sometimes simply too painful to impose on anybody else. our inner judge has many tools to keep us from where the connection to our life force is being limited.

these are the times when the concept of anonymous reading is a blessing, a saviour, a safe haven. it helps us  to dare open up these places and exposing them to the light of the sun.

the  most amazing part of it, in my experience so far, is that these pieces of writing, the “opening of the vein”, the dark night of the soul, are never 'too much' or an imposition for the group, but rather received as a blessing, a relief, an  opportunity and an ivitation to connect with the healing that lies in opening these places. the healing seems to be happening for the whole group.

I have no other words for saying this. I think this is where my love for the process, my absolute commitment and my own healing process are inseparably connected. I'm doing this for myself, and since I can't do it on my own, I 'create' the events, the community, my writing group…

the support is as important an ingrediant as the writing itself is. to me.

Tom, it would be a dream come true to have you at one of the events. (one of the German ones, of course!!! otherwise I'm not likely to get to know you in person…) but until then, our work here will do just as well. it is so much we have here. it is incredible.

Amen and lots of love!
:)
Gabriele

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

This is a great thread and the anonimity part is an interesting experiment that seems to be working in the Failure assignment.

I'd suggest that anyone can post anonymous work just by sending it to Sandra and having her post it … that way we can get halfway there at least.

I do think it's an experiment worth continuing with and would like to see a thread where we can discuss our feedback for the 'Failure assignment' and say a few things about whether it has worked for each of us.

I somehow think Tom your 'tongue in cheek' about the ego thing … it exists, we all know that, but I'm beginning to get your sense of humour :–)

Jim x

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Jim - maybe you could start a thread on the Tree House to find out how people are finding the Anonymous posting thing. I'd love to hear!

I'd like to keep the actual anonymous posts specific to an assigment I set - it means I have 'some' control over the amount of work I have to do ( I have 300+ unsorted emails in my Zaadz in box…). But If someoone feels strongly about posting another piece, yes go ahead and send it to me…

love,
Sandra

Re: ON GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Sandra, this process that you have outlined has made me re-think how I comment on blogs. Perhaps I should just try to learn it for this pod for now, though…and yes, will look at the Byron Katie website.

Very thoughtful and thought-provoking. I am amazed at the effort you put into the pod. Thank you.

ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM - UPDATE!

Please note that there is an update to this thread right at the beginning - the 'basic guidelines' piece.

Love,
Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM - UPDATE!

Thank you Sandra for bringing my attention to this great Pod. It is the kind of pod I have been searching for. I was hesitant to comment because I felt that the agenda for writing and commenting is somewhat complicated :-)
However, as I have seen on other pods, communication is a major issue. Most pods diverge from the primary subject of the founding thread. Thats why I seize to participate on most pods that I join.
This pods is designed to organize communication and prevent misunderstandings.
I am grateful to be a member.

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM - UPDATE!

Well, wow, thank you Ibrahim.

Yes I'm sure the commenting and even where to post assignments or other pieces feels very complicated, and I'm sorry about that - I keep trying to simplify, but …

and yes, it is all about communication, isn't it?

I think why I've been on such a rampage lately is because I'm also involved in the Seeds talk on  zaadz, and involved in a task force for a mediation group; and again and again I see that the more attention and awareness we place on how we communicate (or don't!), the more is possible - the deeper the connection, the wider the expansion…

Michael Sheppard has talked about something he calls 'reverent dialogue' - and what this might be, and how we might apply it here on an online environment. For years I've been interested in this - not only in the virtual world.

And of course misunderstandings will always arise - the main thing is what do we do then? I have found that the most useful thing in all of this is along the lines of Byron Katie's The Work – to deeply know that if I have a 'reaction' it is mine - and that to 'blame' someone else does nothing - but if I look at my reaction and take responsibility for it, well everything (including the 'other' ) seems to unfold and flower.

Lovely to have you hear ( typo, but seems appropriate so I'll keep it!)

Sandra

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

I like the integral pod's road rules… especially this one (slightly modified by me as they've got some weird html going on. I should add it to the commenting thread, other than it's already sooooo long….

3.  Discern your “emotional buttons,” or the things to which you hyper-react. In many cases, whether or not your judgment is true, a hyper-emotional recoil often means that shadow elements have been triggered, or as everyday parlance has it, somebody “pushed your buttons.” Simply notice this happening; try to make subject object (which, as we saw, is the fundamental rule of development). In other words, try to make the reactive self (the lower self) an object of awareness. Just see and feel your emotional reaction; you don't have to do anything else. It's that simple. Don't worry whether something spectacular happens or not; that very act has already caused transformation and dis-identification, and repetitions of that simple act will have a profoundly cumulative effect. Of course, you can do more work on it if you choose, but most essentially, they are ways to just further that process.
       You can investigate this more if you want. If someone or some comment gets on your nerves, what are you pushing against? Seek the underlying value in you that is trying to be expressed in your emotional charge. If you're experiencing strong recoil, resistance, or rage, odds are what you are experiencing is a symptom of your own shadow. If this is so, we recommend doing a little shadow work with your response. Again, don't make a big deal out of this, but work on it in whatever way you know how.
       If you don't want to do shadow work, or don't have the time for it, not to worry: as we said, simply feel the self that is recoiling and acting negatively. Simply try to make subject object. And then go on about enjoying the forum.

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

This is SO awesome, Sandra! It is very buddhistchristianjewishyounameit. and very
jungy too ;) Awesomeawesome!

I have 2 questions:

1) Regarding:

“Seek the underlying value in you that is trying to be expressed in your emotional charge.”

I must be a little confused.

Isn't the process of perceiving a “stepped upon” value of yours, the thing that gets you all “hot & bothered” in the first place?

“How dare she, when I blah blah blah…” (you know)

Is the key you're holding out to us, here, in the word “underlying”? What is really delightful and core and just-plain-can't-be-taken-away-by-anybody thing? This thing is always with you; there's no need to be mad; this person just “didn't get it” that's all. Is that it?

2)  Regarding:

“If you're experiencing strong recoil, resistance, or rage, odds are what you are experiencing is a symptom of your own shadow. We recommend doing a little shadow work with your response.”

Are there some exercises or pointers on doing “shadow work”? (I might have missed them, somewhere)

Some of us have developed our own methods ~I don't believe I could put mine into words, though; I just “go there”~ but it would be helpful to have a “technique” to go by, sometime. Lookin' deep down, diggin' up the dirt, and getting past the urge to splat somebody with it. It'd be nice to have a good handle on that.

Got any tricks, techniques, step-by-steps?

Thanks again! MARVELOUS post!

Namaste,
Ananda

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

I wish I could say 'thank you' dear Ananda, but the post isn't actually mine - I copied and pasted from the Integral Pod's road rules here, which were, in fact, written by Ken Wilber. So, it's not surprising you are confused ;-) Actually I've been blessed to have met the man and he's lovely. And, the II language can be pretty dense.

Good questions, especially the first.

I'm not sure what the answer is, you'd have to go to the Integralists. Maybe I can ask Balder to step in here, I'll do that.

In the meantime, my take would be that yes, there is some 'underlying value' wanting to be expressed, but that the fact that someone 'didn't get it' isn't the reason not to get mad. i.e. there is no reason for the 'other' to get it. Ever. (imo). If I want someone to get it, and they don't, then I can look at how I am communicating – I tend to place the burden of being clear / understandable on the one who is expressing.

But, yes, to some core essential aspect of self that is buried under layers of attachment to worth/ identity etc.

To quote from KW again, ”“The shadow is a term representing the personal unconscious or the psychological material that we repress, deny, dissociate or disown. Unfortunately, denying this material doesn't make it go away; on the contrary, it returns to plague us with painful neurotic symptoms, obsessions, fears and anxieties. Uncovering, befriending, and re-owning this material is necessary not only for removing the painful symptoms, but for forming an accurate and healthy self-image.” from The Integral Vision, pg. 187

Re shadow work, I imagine there tons of stuff on the Integral pod and elsewhere for this. I'm not an expert, so I'm not going to make suggestions. However, I'm hoping Balder will provide some links/suggestions.

Personally I know no better tool than the Byron Katie work for dismantling our beliefs. Of all the techniques out there, it's the one that has stood by me time and time again, partly because it's so very simple.

 And, I also like the Pathwork very much, but it's not really a technique:

“So often man concentrates unduly on the apparent injustice that has come to him. He thinks and thinks again of how wrong others are. This can and should be recognized. But try to find out how you have helped bring this about. If you make half the effort you usually make finding other's faults to find your own, you will see the connection with your own law of cause and effect and this alone will set you free, will show you that there is no injustice. This alone will show you that it is not God, nor the fates, nor any unjust world order wherein you have to suffer the consequences of other people's shortcomings, but your ignorance, your fear, your pride, your egotism that directly or indirectly caused that which seemed, so far, to come your way without you attracting it….Your own unconscious affects the unconscious of the other person. This truth is perhaps most relevant to the discovery of how you call forth all happenings in your life, good and bad, favorable and unfavorable.”
From Pathwork Guide Lecture 52


“Take a current problem. Strip it of all the superimposed layers of your reactions. The first and most handy layer is that of rationalization, that of 'proving' that others, or situations are at fault, not your innermost conflicts which make you adopt the wrong attitude to the actual problem that confronts you. The next layer might be anger, resentment, anxiety, frustration. Behind all these reactions, you will find the hurt of not being loved.”
From Guide Lecture 73

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Thank you Sandra!

“Your” method, in your last two paragraphs, above, is, indeed, something I do “all the time.” With the “good, the bad and the ugly!” hahah~ It keeps me in good stead with myself and the world.

Katie, I am familiar with; I've played with her method quite a few times :)

Great suggestions, here, Sandra! Thank you!

Namaste,
Ananda

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Sandra et al.,

I am so glad that I spent the time to really read through and digest this thread and the various links available through it.

I have been struggling with my own feelings regarding a writer friend of mine who has been giving me blanket feedback on the world of writing and editing and publishing… This having occurred over email, I have taken the low/high(?) road by not responding with my knee-jerk reactions, just sitting with my emotions over the past several days. A part of me feels like a coward and another part of me feels like I'm just protecting myself and my process.

I appreciate the guidelines offered for this group and will do my best to be a compliant member. The world of publishing seems so harsh to writers already, methinks, that we can use all the encouragement and support we can get!

Re: ON COMMENTING & GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Nishtha,

Ah yes, you have to watch those knee-jerk reactions, because sometimes you just end up kicking yourself and that hurts! (I know, because I have done so on several occasions.)


frances