Seeds - the Trust System??? - and Zaadz to Gaia

I'd like to open discussion to the  new addition to Zaadz  — and find out what people think or better, encourage you to share your opinion with zaadz.  A dear friend wrote to me:

They feel so wrong to me … so artificial and judgmental. I have done so well with that sponge on my back, but initial reaction to this was panic. How can you truly be creative if you feel that your creations are being judged and someone may come along and give you “negative seeds.?”

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I'm not comfortable with this either …

an example:

Suddenly I felt that what I blogged was to be judged by popularity –  gave away my seeds and that was it … I suddenly felt compelled to blog and I don't come here for that … so included a piece that I posted here on DD to gain more seeds … I come here for DD … I gave the seeds away again (and I didn't  have enough to give away) and was somehow led to the conclusion that I need to do something in order to be an active part of Zaardz  … not a good (god) feeling to me.

I was seriously pissed off that when i chose to comment on the pod it was the day before the team  launched it … it took me over 4 hours to do all that commenting … I'm here on the pod cos I want to be, and not to do with someone else's pov … ie people who don't have a membership … read all you want that's fine by me :) … if you don't want to read then that's ok by me  too …

Somehow the seeds appear when I've now commented on something … so I'm an active part of this pod and that somehow makes me a reputation? … in my world a reputation is not such a good thing LOL

That means my reputation will grow because of what I do in the pod, but personally, I don't agree with lots of stuff on Zaadz … won't ever give them a bad seed though … seen lot's of flaming etc and that dismays me cos I thought this place was beyond that and one of the reasons I joined … argument is a good thing though (even though it's a mind construct, for all the junkies out there) … but hey, be nice to each other … if most of the flamers were in a room with someone they wouldn't think to be so rude … cos they'd be inviting a punch on the nose I think … but the internet allows people to do almost  (and)  anything.

Seems like a popularity contest to me more than anything, and I'd prefer that the new and hot post were as they were.

Mind you, I somehow don't believe that this comment will be taken into account … don't care really because I'm here cos of DD.

Is there somewhere where the Team decided to consult or did they just decide to do it ?… I'm mostly convinced that it's to do with censorship in the guise of doing good … see the comment on the new way of doing things here on Zaadz … ie the comments about  the Trust System.

So much for flashing ads I reckon!!!

Jim x

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Hey Jim, post what you wrote up on where the discussion is happening… or at least make your opinion known.

I know it feels like there is no point, but I have this sense that there is always a point in speaking up and sharing - I am sure if 2000 members said NO to flashing ads, they would not happen. So everytime we say, oh well, no point in saying anything, we take away from the possiblity that something could happen.

I remember reading a lovely book, gosh I wish I could remember the name of it, It was when I was in Australia 20 yrs ago and I think by an Australian, about this topic of feeling helpless to do anything in the world and giving up, and not realising that everything we do - even just our attention in the moment - can affect all that is around us.

Yes I know, the more you comment the more seeds you get. As I said in my comment  on the link above ( ha hah, got another seed ..) does quantity make for quality? of course not.

Anyway,
sending love.
Sandra

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Sandra:

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Burt, I couldn't agree more, on all of it.

gonna go on my new  crusade now, see if I can, lovingly and supportively, kick some asses - let them throw me out if my negative seeds pull the plug for me! ;) I don't wanna bi in a place where there is a popularity competition - God, if I wanted that, I'd have gone into TV-entertainment!

let's party while we're still here! and - suddenly the vague idea of doing a Diving Deeper community blog outside of zaadz starts making an awful lot of sense.

my two cents on this. look out for me on the zaadz support pages!

:)

with love,
Gabriele

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yikes yikes yikes to people leaving this place - I think the seeds are ridiculous and and an invite for more trouble than good.  Beyond that, dear, dear friends, if you are going to leave please zmail me you email address first or at least take mine.  Please.

With Love & Silly Seeds,  Ayla

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I was too tired to even read that confusing thing about seeds (still haven't read it) … then I wrote a piece in my blog and kazoom I got a seed, heh heh, whaaaat???? (I had been given 36 seeds)
Then I went over to Aylas place and saw this, well, what ever menu to choose from, I thought “neat”, so I gave her “Big Love” and kazoom I lost 3 seeds by doing that and I dunno what it did to hers (sorry girl or concrats). Can ayone say to me, if I loose all of mine by giving them away, will they kick me outta here or what? Am I impopular if I spread Big Love around? (talk about logic in that!!!!!! marvellous).
Is there someone who will check this comment up and give me a seed?
Duh! LOL “Priceless, seedless” and be my guest.
Weird, but who cares, not me - if I may stay so to say, eaven thoug as the impopularest of us all. Yeah, they don't trust me buhuuuu *wolfgrin*

Nono in wonderland oops sorry in zaadz.

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ayla, no worries, I'd never just disappear without a proper announcement - anybody who wants my email will be able to contact me before I'm outta here… BUT - maybe there is another way.

I've just checked the Think Tank. someone started a thread there today called The New Seed Bank Idea Is A Big Mistake, and there are already 36 responses! will over now and see who else is there and what they have to say about it, share my 2 cents and hope everybody who hasn't joined the Think Tank and thinks the seed bank is a reason to get out of here will go there, press on the join us now button and say what they have to say!

guys, we CAN change the world. we do it all the time. if enough people on zaadz don't want a popularity competition, there will be no popularity competition! whether I'll ever trust in whatever is 'zaadz' again is another question I will take care of later.

lots of love.
Gabriele

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Thanks Sandra, for prompting this discussion.  I don't have anything to say that isn't on the team blog (See lucid's points) and ShawnMichel's brilliant post.   Ditto to that.

Burt expressed my feelings concisely.

-donny

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Ditto, ditto, ditto! even to disappearing if that's what people feel they need to do. Although I'd sure like to be given the option of disappearing with you, in spirit at least.

And I want to say something about the value of making our opinions known. A week or so ago, in response to a thread Sandra started in the Treehouse, I and at least one other I know of from DD posted blogs re the blinking ads thing (mine was an extension to what I posted to Siona's What do you think? thread on the Think Tank). Ok, and here's the thing: sometime in the next few days C4Chaos~ posted a comment to my blog saying that zaadz is going back to non-animated ads. I notice that Siona has since said the same on her Think Tank thread. Forgive me for going on about this if it's common knowledge (as I thought), but something Sandra and Jim said above suggests it's not. And today for the first time I'm noticing, no blinkies, at least not where I've been.

Love,
rudyan

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My two cents:  yes, the seed system seems shallow and not in the spirit of the community I thought I had joined.  Please, before everyone jumps ship, let's speak up.  Losing the DD community would be such a great loss to me personally.  Let's raise some hell first.

and I'm supposed to like seeds…..


sparrow

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oh bugger, I SHOULD have left you a couple of seeds after all, sparrow - totally forgot about you little birds!

I'm going to bed now, hours later then I had intended, because I got myself involved in the discussion on the Think Tank. there were some sweet and concerned responses to my post and a mass of others sharing their point of view, a very sincere one from Matthew (I think Matthew is phantastic, and Siona is a fabulous communicator, I've said this before, everything makes sense) and many others who shared their worries, like me, and some who thought it was a great idea… sigh.

as I said on my status report (!) already, now I'm TOTALLY confused, don't know up from down anymore, do I want out or in, more or less… and if not, what else…? all I know for sure now is, I'm off to bed, Mr. Potter and his adventures waiting to keep me company as long as I manage to keep my eyes open.

What did Scarlett say? There's another day tomorrow? that's the spirit!

see y'all tomorrow - don't worry sparrow, I'm impulsive, I'm easily 'outta here' when things get tough, it's my survival mode - and should I go, I'd throw a good-buy party first! :)

good night, sweet hearts, lots of love and bubbles, no seeds so far.
Gabriele

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hello everyone…

It seems that I will need to do a bit of catching up here on the various discussions (and from the sounds of it heated ones) that have exploded since they launched this new feature. I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised by the reactions to the system. My first glance at the original design and the current explanation was…. well rather indifferent. I am not sure it matters all that much to me how many seeds I have collected - won't be many because quite fankly I have not found, until a few days ago, a place where I felt comfortable enough to share in. How different are the seeds from any other kind of counter on other social networking sites - ones that keeps track of posts, visits etc. - to me, not much at all. We have a structure here at Zaadz that is continously evolving - however, it is a relatively small community, one that is geared towards the concept of consumption (which has been pretty clear from its inception) - recognizing the support publically is taking that to the next level, because of course the Zaadz team wants to continously encourage activity on pods - that is how they ultimately make money from their advertisers…. the marketing behind the seeds is pretty transparent to me. In the end, what judging or non-judging that happens is up to us as individuals… to give seeds or not, give bad seeds (is that possible?) or ignore the whole thing and focus more on the essence of why we are here - to make a difference in the world around us, to reach out and share ourselves in positive and constructive ways… I am inclined to do the latter… I cannot control who judges me for what - I can only live my life, share what I am able to, in the best way possible… with integrity and honesty that is inherent to who I am.

I hope those who have a strong reaction to these little seeds are able to understand just where they are planting them… and how they will be used. I wonder if we will grow stinkweed or roses. I am hoping for roses… :-)

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Umm, just wanted to plonk myself down here among kindred spirits and hang out.

Taking a breather under water - a thousand miles away from the commotion. Love to you, Sandra…

Little  otter,

m

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I just wanted to say something too .I don't have a lot to say except that like Nono, I can't be bothered to read the instructions and so I would mess it up anyway. I just seems silly and sophmoric. I like that word. One guy I know posted a picture of a cardinal on a birdfeeder as his icon. It was full of seeds. I thought was pretty funny.  It is too wierd and confusing. We are all unique and do things are own and in our own time and that should be encouraged. jen

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To seed or not to seed???   AHHHhhh!

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I just learned of this seeds thing tonight. Unfortunately a great guy on zaadz, Curmudgeon (apparently left zaadz over this) emailed me to say goodbye this morning, and I missed his note, he left zaadz before I could respond. I feel sad on his leaving, for he is an intelligent free spirit we will miss here. If anyone knows how to reach him, please, tell me so I could say goodbye to him as his friend.

One must analyze intelligently the reason for this action by Zaadz. It may be that there have been too much negativity, or conflict going on, therefore this is their way of moderating it. Or they may desire more content, or more -what they perceive- positive content. Or they may have something in mind they are not saying. If so, they should say up front the HIDDEN reason for this, if there is one.

The emotional response is good, and I respect it from anyone, because many people here have aversions to control mechanisms therefore they won't respond favorably to this. And this is undoubtedly a control mechanism. The question is why they feel they need to do this.

In the instructions they say they are looking for the sages on zaadz. To that, I say this, with all due respect:

There is a Sufi aphorism that goes like this:

“There are two kinds of sages, one made by the world, and one made by God (reality)

In other words, a true sage doesn't give a hoot about impressing people, but

loves them unconditionally enough to understand that sometimes he or she must appear not to love them, in order to love them, and how the world views him doesn't matter, what matters is that he heals, openly, and in secret, in the name of love, and compassion, not at all to be acclaimed by the world!

 So he question is, will this really show us who is a sage, and who isn't?

Peace
Zak

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It is so lovely to read you all this morning. I had a 'difficult' night and thought long and hard about this seed thing.

I really feel strongly that we do not jump ship over this, at least not yet.
Perhaps the question to ask, is how will it affect our connections here, our life here, all the good things that we have here, on zaadz and Diving Deeper. Quite frankly I'm FAR more concerned about how this might affect our haven here, the Diving Deeper pod than anything else.

After re-reading the instructions several times ( I guess that is what they mean about sages, if you can understand them then you must be a sage…), it seemed to be less of a big deal than when I first read them. Basically it seems we can all go about 'our business' much the same as ever, everyone here posts a lot anyway, so you have nothing to worry about in terms of 'your standing'. If you choose not to do anything with your pile of seeds, it wont reflect on you, and you can just ignore the pile, how high or low it is. I remembered in the early days 'checking on how many views' my profile had… it made me feel good. I can't remember the last time I checked, and especially when I realised that how many people viewed my profile meant NOTHING. The comments on my blogs meant something - and the emails I got directly meant something ( to me at least ). i.e. the actual, human interaction, the words shared, the time someone took to read a blog or share what they thought, this all lands over with me as LOVE.

Piles of seeds or numbers of views? I dunno. I think after a while it will fall into the background.

BUT. I do have a few things to say  - I feel that we as a community should have been notified of this new change. Maybe we were, maybe I missed it. It feels like a big one, bigger than the shout outs etc.

Also, the fact that there did not seem to be an immediate place to talk about this…. it was not possible to comment on the instructions. I just noticed at the bottom  there is a direction to a discussion board - which I just took a look at and I actually don't know if it was there originally, was it? Anyway, it is a bit of a mess in so far as it does not have the full on dialogue that is going on the Team Blog.  OH. I've just read the thread Gabriele pointed out, and the team have apologized for not being clear on where to discuss this issue.

I am sure some of the 'emotional responses' came out of feeling helpless, that this Thing had been done all of a sudden and we could not talk about It. For some reason the whole issue of sponsors felt like it was handled better,  I remember feeling 'part' of the decision making ( where they would be, top, side, how big etc), even if I wasn't, it felt that way.

Ok, next.
This bit on the instructions:

If someone's Reputation Score falls gets too low, all content they've posted in public areas is “folded”—hidden from users who aren't logged in, and minimized to title only unless clicked by members. Also, their profile becomes visible only to community members.

If someone's Score really gets bad, they lose the ability to post new content to public areas on the site; content posted on their blog, albums, and so on, is excluded from new/hot/search, friends' blogs and notifications. They can still edit any content they they've already created, however, and can reply to messages but not send new ones. And they'll lose your seeds available, so they cannot give feedback.

Essentially, they'll lose their voice.

you can give these seeds to other members in the form of positive or negative feedback on blog entries, photos, discussion board posts, comments, mail messages, and member profiles.

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p.s. Anyone reading the above - please read the version of it on ThinkTank, as I have updated it a bit on reading some of the discussion there and on the team blog.

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Totally agree with Sandra's idea about rating peoples postings. That's idiotic, immediate abandon that at least here. The creative process is fragile… And yet, we are probably among the few in zaadz that do kind of “rank” postings already. (I know, we don't rank in that meaning but you know what I mean) And we are frank an honest in a loving & supportive way. Some of us get an odd start, but we'll come around and in terms and can contribute enormously.

But, I tend to ignore the whole seeds thing, it feels very kindergarten to me and I laughed a lot to it yesterday and I'm still not able to put a lot serious energy in it. Like the image of us chasing around at the cyberspace polluting it with some ranking seed marks after every piece we read, duh. Or for gods sake, if I suck as a commentator (like I'm learning the process), and then some buddy's rank me down just because of that??? Will I try to evolve? Will I try again? I will probably keep my mouth shut.

How about the Truly bad postings??? ”Yeah, this was so f..n bad > down with the head! You got a rutten seed pal!” *LOL*, how can one EVER fail with that mission? Cos it's contradicted (or what ever word, have no time to check that up) to begin with. Badder I get better I am. Now i sucked with my English too.

Don't ya worry at all, let's deal with our corner of heaven with terms and methods we know work so well. The process is in process. It'll be okay.

Love as always,
Nono

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Thanks Nono.
Gabriele… I want you to stay here on Diving Deeper, of course I do.

This is where our attention is, or at least mine is. Will it serve Diving Deeper for you to leave? Will it serve your writing? ( no pressure or moral implications on my part, but I do feel it's a good question, for anyone of us here to ask). If the answer is yes, especially to the latter question ( i.e.not  serving your writing), then I support the decision to leave.

Love love love
Sandra

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In the discussion on the Think Tank Pod there is a lot being said about all this. After having posted there and having read all the threads I found the Zaadz Team to be a little defensive in the face of so much critcism. Understandable because the initial responses were quick and gut felt ones rather than offering alternatives.

From my reading, being able to give someone a bad seed is now no longer an available tool.
They're rethinking this.

I'm wondering if there is going to be an option that pods can have to disable the seeds functions but this may be a tricky thing for them and it may not be an option for us.

If someone does like the idea of gathering seeds and no seeds are allowed in say this pod, then those people won't be inclined to join and post in the pod.

People may or may not comment when they come to the pod because they won't earn any seeds from commenting … I believe I'm earning a seed right now just by writing this.

There is perhaps something favourable though for the pod. From my trawling around to other profiles I can see that there is a rating system on a blog. I'm not sure quite what this is or what it does but I think it may be useful in a modified way for us because it's a way to see that a piece has at least been read if perhaps not commented on … anyway we've yet to see what changes they are going to make re this Trust System.

If they keep the seeds then I can see that perhaps people may use it rather than making a comment … mind you I think the way it works is that I read your blog and give it a seed somehow by clicking on a link, and then if I comment , I earn the seed back to then give it away again … something like that anyway.

There's always the option not to use the functions and ignore the seeds … I think once they reach a certain number (25 I think) then you don't amass any more of them.

Jim x

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I would like that, to have a counter how many reads a posting gets. That's actually a very constructive idea, because then, when the writer is not commentend upon at leas they get to see that people read it. Cos sometimes it's difficult to comment and one can't comment i every piece (you would see my oily mug all over the place all the time).

Good idea Jim!

And PS: I just gave away all my seeds. I for example went over to Davids place and gave him the maximum 5, cos I want him to be up and operational despite that he will be away for god knows how long time. And I also thought of those who don't login so often but I know their heart, they got my seeds.

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Nono everyone it seems starts with 25 seeds – this is from the document pages


What is a Seed Bank (SB)?

Each member has a Seed Bank that begins at 25 seeds. Contributions to the community increase a member's Seed Bank. Just about any activity—posting comments, photos, blog entries, discussion posts, events, businesses, bookmarks, books, videos, and so on—awards 1 seed per item of content. (However, deleting your own content removes 1 seed per item. This is to discourage people from posting content solely to gain a great number of seeds. I don’t know. Maybe some of you are into hoarding. :)

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Poor baby, is that what you started with? Someone here, I don't name any names, got started with 34!!! Then that someone posted a bit and got even more and then that someone gave it all away … but it's totally hopeless, that someone gets and gets so it's tough to give and give.

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hehe for some reason I started with 83 seeds… but now I am down to 1 ;-) I gave mine all away to you guys

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oh Hah Hah … some  people had more because I gave mine away *smirk* …

… and I know you've been secretly blogging and adding a word at a time to amass seeds ;–)

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I wonder how that whole rating thing works?  What's the formula?  Anyway, Ms. Quietlaughter you should be up a little in your seed count now because I gave you as many as it would let me.  Wonder if that whole 5 thing is in total, per month, forever, a day - what?

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hehe yes, I did notice this morning when I logged on that I had more seeds - I have no idea how they will do that - maybe per month or week.. depends I guess on how much energy they have left to deal with this :-P not a day though - because I am already at my limit and it hasn't changed yet :-P

thanks for the seeds :-)

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Oye…

I dropped this off at the thinktank- but really it’s even MORE applicable to what we do here. So, here it is again. Oh- and Donny! I’m so sorry, but I was experimenting with the seeds and thought I was flagging your blog for review in a good way! I swear to God! Oops.

Howdy lovely people.

I’ve been listening in on this ‘zaadz seeds’ conversation for a while. Usually I don’t get involved in this sort of thing- but I’d like to make a few comments. I’d like to do this in the spirit of giving a ‘voice’ to certain feelings that every one of us have- and not in the spirit of accusation or anger. I can only echo what I feel underlies the arguments here in a calm and reflective manner- and hope that this sort of communication will spread. It is, I think, important to realize that each person here is acting in the way that they perceive as beneficial and unselfish. There is simply a disagreement on what will be beneficial. Let’s not question each other’s motives, but rather seek to resolve our issues through the co-operative dialogue of colleagues.

First, I’d like to look at the root of what’s going on- then address both main points of view.

We desire to ‘be the change’. I really adore this concept. It says right up front that we recognize that to change the world is actually an internal process. It is this process that is so important to this discussion right now.

There are two schools of thought (that I am aware of) on how change is brought about within. I call them the ‘dualistic’ and the ‘wholistic’. Don’t get stuck on the name- though- I just can’t think of anything better this moment. The dualistic goes something like this: there is evil and there is good. We accept the good and reject the evil. The evil goes away and everything gets better. There are different variations, of course. The wholistic goes something like this: good and evil is irrelevant. The process of being rejected creates the image of evil. To repair a torn sheet, sew it together. To repair a fragmented human, bring all her pieces together. To repair a divided community, accept every voice as heart-felt.

I obviously tend to the wholistic method. (Grinning.) I could invent a dozen reasons- but the most important is this. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Basically- judge and be judged. Love and be loved. More complicatedly, to reject something is to reinforce its negative aspects. Ignoring is actually rejection, too. This is a fine pickle to be in, of course. We don’t want to engage with negative or harmful people. We want to get them away from us. And from an individual perspective this seems to be a great idea- why should I have to deal with arseholes, eh? Ah. Change the world by being the change…. that isn’t going to actually happen if we reject the parts of the world that are torn and abused.

I know I talk in long circles. Sorry about that- thanks for bearing with me.

Even internally, when we try to change by rejecting the ‘harmful’ parts of ourselves… does this really work? I don’t think so. Negative behaviour comes from somewhere, always. To address the behaviour- we don’t have to address that cause or the reason ‘we got like that.’ It might help and it might not. But we DO have to recognize the voice within and give it attention. Like this- say I have a temper and I’ve become aware of it. I want to change. So, I try to be nice. But deep down, when I try to be nice, I’m really just repressing my anger. It keeps causing me to feel resentment- which makes me feel even more guilty about my temper. I can’t just toss out anger. It’s there for a reason. So, instead- I stop what I’m doing and ask myself, “Whoa! You’re angry! What’s going on inside that’s making this? Maybe I need to think about the real cause. Maybe I stored this anger up at some point. Maybe thinking about the past won’t help, though. Maybe I have to just accept that I’m angry for being betrayed so many times in the past and that this fear of betrayal is triggering anger now? Something strange happens when you start thinking like this. The next thing you know, the anger is quieter. We still may have to say something about the situation that brought it up- we may have to act on the situation. But the anger goes from being the focus to being the flag that called for awareness- within.

I bring this up because it’s very similar in community. Dealing with each other. Dealing effectively with someone else’s anger is actually quite similar to dealing with our own. We have the tendency to get angry at someone who is angry. We resent their anger. We want to say, “go away!” But we have the option of saying, “Whoa! What’s going on!” They may not want to talk about it. They may blame us, still, but it’s the only thing that even MIGHT work. Being the change, so to speak.

Now, how does this have to do with zaadz and seeds? Everything. The seeds constitute a method of vocalizing judgement- we can either give cudos or crapos. We may accept or reject. The main arguments against the seeds seek to show that this tool will allow people to harm one another by playing out their internal judgements. It is not the ability to judge that is questioned (since we already formulate and vocalize judgements) but rather the focus of that judgement into a tangible process created by the seeds. Just by being there as a process, the seeds beckon us to judge. And to recognize this argument is important. There will certainly - absolutely certainly - be some abusing that goes on. The seeds will provide an avenue for judgement, anger release, projection of our own values on others, etc. It’s a very good point.

I’d like to give voice to the other arguments also. Why create the seeds? Going back to ‘be the change’, we can get a sense of where this is coming from. The seeds provide the opportunity to do harm. To reject. To ignore, even, with the absense of recognition. Yes. But they provide an opportunity to do good, also. Imagine that there is an angry blogger who is ranting against the ‘system’. Imagine that this person is rather disliked and generally ignored. Now imagine that someone comes along and puts a happy face on his blog. A good seed? What the hell? And the depositor comments there something like: “You know, I can see that you are pretty angry. I have to admit that I don’t exactly understand completely- but I know how it feels to be angry and it sucks. I send you big hugs.”

This is completely irrational, of course. Putting good seeds on bad pages?

But it’s being the change- and it is made a LOT more possible with the seeds.

Now, to be personal, I don’t really argue one way or the other. I can make kind comments as I so choose, regardless. I will refrain from making negative comments, regardless. I will try to address other people’s feelings without either affirming or denying validity to them- by giving voice to the real root of those feelings. Simply being aware of em, really. And if people are downright rude? I’ll just be not-rude. (Or try, anyway.)

BUT. There are good arguments on both sides. The real question boils down to: are we READY, as a community, to have such responsibility given manifest form in a definite process?

This is a damned hard question. To give responsibility is to give the opportunity to rise to it. But to give responsibility is to allow failure.

There are possibly medium paths. Like a trial run, for example. Or go over to poetry.com and watch the system in action for awhile.

But I’ve already written too much here. The most important part - and this is MY feelings on the matter - is to recognize that we are all on the same side here. No one is out to ‘just make money’. And the angry voices aren’t angry because they are jerks. We all want what’s best but because of our different life-experiences, we have different ideas about what is going to be beneficial. If we can all recognize that- then it won’t matter what tools we are given anyway. We will all see that we are not the ‘right ones’, but rather voices within a whole. A temple of humanity.

Anyway, hope this helps. I sure adore all of ya.

David Williams

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David.

For me your comment says more than pretty much anything yet.

( I've been trying to get on zaadz to post a link to the version of David's comment on The Team Blog  for the past 2 hours, I guess snowed under or rather seeded under?).

Love all,
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

NO WAY around the Seeds System? Seriously???

Posted on Nov 17th, 2007 by Gabriele

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Gabriele…  oh feather smoothing dearest.

I'm cross-eyed with reading all the posts on the issue. BUT I do seem to remember Siona saying that if its clear the majority of people here do not want the system, it will be dismantled. I believe her.

Thing is, I am not sure it IS clear that the majority do not want it. And quite frankly, like many 'places' and countries etc, I suspect that the majority of people don't give a s**t. Or are not aware of all the hoo hah.  I do believe the whole thing triggered a LOT of emotions.

I remember reading somewhere that all emotions are lies. It shocked me at first, and then I thought, wow, yes, that's true. Not that they are 'wrong'. but they do not tell the truth. (Bit like Paul Lowe's distinction btw emotions and 'feelings', the former being drama the latter being something clear and unsullied by our 'stuff).

this is where I am with it all at the moment:

I think mistakes were made: not telling us about this before it happened, and in the wording of some of the systems functions and its explanation.

I am pretty certain changes will be made, they already have - the 'negative' feedback option being removed, I believe. Is this a good thing? I don't even know this anymore. I do know that I will need to discuss with you all here how we handle this on Diving Deeper - because of the specific nature of what we do here, but as a general thing?

I'm thinking back to some very very unpleasant interactions I had on zaadz with someone. I certainly played my part, but from this person's actions with others I saw that I was not alone in being treated appallingly, imho. Once I unhooked myself from the dialogue, the person disappeared from my zaadz life and has remained so. And yet I noticed the person's behaviour happening elsewhere, with some clearly very unhappy people as a result. I sent a note to a moderator of a pod the person was on, and they said they already had 'complaints' and were looking into it. Now, I don't really know what happened in the end, if anything was really done, or even that it needed to be done.  I do know this person is one of the most 'popular' (in terms of views, output, etc) in Zaadz. Very interesting. On my brief visits I see no change in basic behaviour. Would this situation have been different if I and others were able to 'flag' this person's emails/comments etc?  Maybe.

And in the scale of things, this situation above is not a big deal, or is it? I wonder sometimes. We let something go, because well, there are far more 'dangerous' people out there in the world to worry about, but is not every tiny thing each one of does important? I believe it is.

There is part of me that would be interested in a group of 'trusted' “Elders” here on zaadz. Voted on by us. These Elders should not be the Team - they have more than enough things to handle, although perhaps one of the team should be in the group. I would vote for Siona. Perhaps this group ( a finite one ) of Elders would come up for 'review' every year, or you can only be an Elder for a specific period of time etc.

Of course this system would not necessarily be any better than the seed system, but it is what came to me. I like to feel part of a 'village' and the village of Zaadz has felt more like a sprawling metropolis lately, where I 'hole' out in my own little part ( Diving Deeper pod ) where it feels safer and more 'human' scale, quite frankly. In the beginning I felt very close to the Team, but now they have so much on their hands I've backed off, and I feel their presence less and less ( barring this present situation of course).

I would like to have someone/somewhere to 'go' to - not about website problems or ideas to better zaadz etc, but to discuss issues of the above nature. I suspect the Ambassador's programme was set up with this partly in mind, and I am one. But I feel it has not really worked ( the Ambassador group) - and I have to admit I have not helped by not being an active member of the pod. I have been very active in sharing about zaadz to others etc, and always make myself available if someone emails me for help etc. But I think the group is too large, and perhaps it would be more appropriate for us as a group to choose who we think are Elders, rather than the method for accepting Ambassadors ( a long questionnaire read, I presme, buy the team).

Okay. I've run on again.

Love all,
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Hi Sandra
Wonderful thoughts. You're right; there is little movement on the Ambassadors pod; even from those who are actively ambassadoring [to coin a term!]

On the Think Tank I had suggested a mentoring system for newbies and included other suggestions as well. But I like your idea of Elders —IF people can take this term with the correct connotation!

Have you sent this to Siona?

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Thanks Meenakshi - I just emailed Siona :-)

Love,
Sandra

Circulus in probando

Just random thoughts given that I've been absent for a while and have only discovered this tonight. 

I must say I'm bemused by the proliferation of some very lengthy posts in relation to this new development on Zaadz and admit I'm amused by the comparisons to Hitler. Buggered if I know why Omar Al-Bashir, Kim Jong Il, Than Shwe, Saparmurat Niyazov and, ah heck, even the CIA never get a mention.  I mean, why concentrate on a dead despot when there are so many others to choose from who are still alive and active?

Forgive me for not intellectualising this but apart from my first reaction to this being one related to Nick Cave and Pavlov which…kinda gets away from the issue at hand *chuckle*, my impression of this introduction reminds me very much of office culture.

You know how it is at the office - everyone's trying to fit in, they blend to suit, social ties revolve around cliques and a yearning to belong is reflected by what a person is prepared to do in order to be accepted (or not).  A lot do by mimicking their peers, acting and thinking the same as everyone else, being the same or refuse to do so and their reputation reflects their success or failure accordingly.  So, for every person that earns a rep that vastly overrates their ability there's a person whose reputation makes them the scum of the earth. I was going to use the school playground as the analogy in order to reflect the childlike nature of such a fallacy but children, unlike (what we expect from) adults, do not possess certain sensibilities that afford them the knowledge we refer to as maturity.  Having worked in an office I have watched reputations gained on the golf course and crushed by the receptionist at the water cooler.  To me, this seeds thing is no different.

Whichever way you look at it, all reputation is a judgement and at times an unfair (and not to mention defamatory) one at that. They can also draw you into a false sense of security.  As an adult, you learn to navigate your way through this socially conditioned mess the best way you can - some retreat, some lash out, some rebel, some cling onto who they are and fight for their rights and some don't really give a toss.

Meh, I'm with the last group.

Unless I have this wrong, my understanding of the Seeds system is that it's voluntary; you don't have to participate.  Of course, if we were all commanded to use it, then this would be a different issue. But by refusing to participate, you not only refrain from utilising your Zaadz-given seeds but also refrain from acknowledging a Zaadzter's sperm seed bank.  You are, in essence, required to accept a person how you find them, not how someone or something else does. Moreover, you are called to ignore how you are judged and, better yet from retaliatory judging. This requires a modicum of personal strength.

Electronic communication is difficult enough given that it excludes some 90% of our communication methods so by communicating in this way, we are called to exercise what sometimes feels like superhuman patience in our efforts to understand what the other is trying to get across (I put my hand up here, guilty of knee jerking in the past..ooo eee my poor patella…).  Ultimately, things that challenge us are sent to teach us. Wailing about them only creates a negative energy and attracts unsavoury things. My feeling about this is that this is a test of what we know as a community and whether we are prepared to extend ourselves in order to nourish it as well as a timely reminder to act towards one another with grace and humility.

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Amazing how this has tapped into people's emotions.  In reading the threads on many pod discussions I see these latent hostilities emerging.

The name-calling has been absurd, and from what I've seen it's been mainly the pro-seed people doing the name-calling. 

So I pose this question.  Why has this unleashed such tremendous antagonism?  Why does Zaadz suddenly look like two hostile camps?  Why do I feel I can't “trust” someone till I'm re-assured they are opposed to the seeds (I recognize that that's silly, and yet I feel it).

NOTE:  I posted a comment on Jake's blog last night, and this afternoon a friend of his emailed me to rebuke me for my post.  She said “I'm not attacking you…” and then proceeded to attack me.  I laughed it off, and she wrote a viciously passive/aggressive reply.  I'm not making this up.  The idea that somehow I'm going to be judged by people like that is unacceptable to me.

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Nalukataq, I know what you mean.

until yesterday evening (Germany time, so for VERY long!) I've been following most of the posts on Think Tank and the Team blog and was amazed by the tone of some of them…

sobering - but also made me realize that I'm usually living and expressing myself only in a very little part of what zaadz actually is… by networking in a wonderful circle of like-minded friends and leaving the rest be as it is most of the time.

and that's what I'll continue to do. out there is in here - I've seen some VERY unpleasant mirrors in other's responses, and I've seen some wonderful people speaking up, with great sense of humor, wit, compassion and creative responses. zaadz is not beyond this planet, I have realized, zaadz is a mirror of what is going on 'out there' and 'in here'. no way around it, there is nowhere else to go.

we do have a choice though, I think, where we invest our energy for creativity, growth and change. zaadz is only one possibility out of a zillion… and still not the worst.

sobered. sending love,
Gabriele

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Oh god Nalukataq.. where are those 'bad seeds' when you want them ;-)) Lemme at her.
sorry ooops. back to being rational. see below.
Hugs and love and I'm sorry you experienced that.

Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

I'll close the thread I opened yesterday and bring my post here - I'm not sure anybody saw it (where are those counting tools when you need them!?) - and update on my personal the seed bank development.

:)

ok everybody, I'm over it. took a while. seeds are a fact on zaadz now, there is nothing to do about them at this point - I've given up or in or both, not sure yet, time will tell.

so, the seeds and I will co-exist here on zaadz. I said I'll go when they stay, then I realized this morning they ARE here and nobody's going to undo the feature - so what do I do now? leave the planet?

actually, believe me, I would if I could - if there was another one, a better one, a perfect one - sigh. but no other planet in sight, no other community either that could replace this one. I'll keep looking, though, and y'all be the first ones to know as soon as I've found something like zaadz, only perfect! ;)

for the time being we'll have to live with the planet's, zaadz' and, helas, our very own imperfection. let's make the best of it!

I'm thinking of creative ways of using my seeds since I 'earn' them already for simply doing my job here by moderating - I think I'll go to some endangered species here I know personally, someone who doesn't come here much and probably doesn't 'earn' many seeds and make sure their light shines nicely - you so easily get a bad reputation these days! ;)

and of course I'll spread them among my circle of friends - what else would I do with them? - I'm not interested in any kind of counting or popularity poll - I'll just make sure my friends light's shine nicely as well!

most of all, though, I'd like to remind everybody to not forget that there is NOTHING that can replace contact through direct feedback, appreciation, support and love - let's all keep writing comments to each other and shout outs and not reduce our contact to the anonymous love-seeds.

Diving Deeper is not endangered in that way anyway, because we LIVE on comments and direct exchange, but comments on personal blog posts and pictures and stuff are also wonderful to receive. let's stay in touch with each other.

love to all!
Gabriele

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

copy of my post on the new, rather less 'emotional' thread Moderating the community:questions and suggestions: [EDIT! this thread ended up being highly emotional!]

——————————————————————-

Meenakshi - thank you thank you for starting this thread. I was tossing and turning last night thinking about doing something similar, a thread which was titled in a such a way as to inspire something more than “I like this” or “I don't like this” (and all the multiple variations of these two…).

So, to your points:

2.  Re Mentoring/Ambassadors: As you know I have suggested something along the lines of a group of “Elders”. (See my post  here). I believe this should be different to the Ambassadors - although it could include an Ambassador. At first I suggested that this group be voted on by members of zaadz, but after reading Grey's response, I agree with him:

I'm no expert on holacracy yet, but I was thinking that it would be good to take Sandra's Elders idea and extend it downward a few holarchical levels. So we'd have a small group of the most trusted Elders at the top, then a somewhat larger group of well-trusted community members responsible for supporting the Elders, an even larger group of trusted zaadzsters below this group to provide support to them, and so on… turtles all the way down (to how ever many levels seems appropriate).

Then perhaps the seeds system could be used to help determine who could qualify for a given level of community administration. And maybe the Elders (or even the other levels) could be elected in some way (although not necessarily purely democratically), perhaps with an individual's seed reputation helping to determine how much weight their vote has…. Just brainstorming here.

Self-review, personal moderation and freedom of speech can make for some potent combinations, but “good points” and “bad points” seem, well, sophmoric to me.  It may be that the “youthfulness” of Zaadz does call for this level of simplicity, its just that, despite the obviously good intentions, the elegance does not seem to be there.

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

This post from Siona ( the thread it's in is an interesting one) states what I feel is an absolutely important point - should we have to deal with “I Like it” or Flagging or whatever here on DD.

She says:

This is .. what we were hoping the 'negative feedback' option would be used for. There's a difference between content and conduct, and I'm of the mind that the majority of the community is sharp enough to know the difference.

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Erm,

I just asked for a zaadz-wide poll to find out if it's really only a “vocal minority” that wants to crush the seed system here. 

Would be nice to find out. By their re-actions ye shall know how much empowerment shall be granted to thee.

Blessed be


~ The Christ on sensimilla

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Hi everyone, this is a copy of a post I made on the ThinkTank board on the Trust System:

——————-

I've had several emails from people saying they do not understand what 'Flag for review' means. I'm doing my best to explain - I haven't clicked on it yet but I'm sure if there is a little notice explaining it and asking if you are sure you want to go ahead, that would be helpful.

– for those of you who are not clear about this function, this is my understanding of it: you 'flag' it because you feel that the content is really inappropriate in the context of the zaadz mission statement and their terms and conditions. - for example is racist, violent, abusive etc.

(Once again, as I moderate a creative writing pod, I think the distinction between 'flagging' behaviour vs content is useful to keep in mind - i.e. sometimes a poem is very expressive of 'anger' – but the writer is not being abusive, or a short story could explore issues of racism but not be 'racist'. Fine points indeed, but worth exploring).

——————–

And if you want my lastest post /position on it all you will have to go here :-)

hugs and thanks Darren and Mascha  for hanging in here!

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the trust system.... and now zaadz to Gaia.

I'm posting this on this thread since I feel it's relevant..

Most of us here I think, maybe I'm wrong, have let go of the seed issue somewhat? It doesn't seem to be affecting us on Diving Deeper yet. And still there is a lot of discussion on the system and the fall-out. I've been commenting a fair bit on Meenakshi's thread Moderating the Community: Questions and Suggestions.

Personally I find it a fascinating thread as it seems to be a blueprint / weather vane of sorts of all the voices here on zaadz.

Here on zaadz - so this is where I'm leading … the issue of zaadz's transformation from zaadz into Gaia. As I'm sure many of you know, Zaadz was bought by Gaiam a while back, you've probably also seen the new Gaia beta site, which came out of this new partnership.

I for one was at first bothered by zaadz being bought:  for much the same reasons as I was bothered by the seeds: it felt like a change and I don't like changes, and it also felt like perhaps this community of zaadz was going to no longer be how I experienced it: a village of people, sharing, growing, doing what they could to support others here and everywhere.

And of course I knew nothing about Gaiam, or how in fact zaadz might be affected by this change.  And when the actual functionality of zaadz didn't seem to change in any obvious Gaia-flavoured way, I forgot about it.

BUT.

Given the fall-out from the seeds issue, I've decided it behooves me ( and everyone?) to take a look at this transformation, and to see if we can actually participate in it rather than sit back and let it happen and then complain that it didn't happen the way we like it.

There is a Gaia pod, created by the zTeam.  I've just joined it.  Yes I know, the very last thing you want is another pod  to join, but I feel it's important to at least read the description by Siona. I'll copy it here below.

And, especially those of you who were bothered by the Trust Issue, I'd suggest joining the pod so you can ask questions and express concerns. The more input the Zaadz team hears, the more able they'll be to manage the transformation in a manner that benefits us all.

Love,
Sandra

Gaia Pod description:

Welcome to the Gaia Pod!

So. We're a part of Gaiam now, and we're looking forward (eagerly!) to our role in shaping the Gaia Community.

This pod is meant to answer two questions:

1. What is the Gaia community?

Imagine a global community of communities, made up of like-minded people inspiring and empowering each other to create for positive change on the planet. Imagine a network of such organizations and communties and businesses, growing from the Zaadz social networking site and eventually extending worldwide.

We're all part of this transformation. We have a tremendous opportunity to be the living heart and soul of this emerging future. We're all a part of it.

So what's your vision? What's your ideal? What does Gaia mean to you?

2. What does this mean for Zaadz?

There's been a sweet note of concern in the community about what will happen as a result of this sale. The short answer?

Nothing. :)

Gaiam, our parent company, is committed to preserving this space, and to ensuring that our brillaint community remains the safe and vibrant and passionate space it's always been. If anything, they want to help nurture this community further and to support us in providing all of you with the tools and resources you need to connect and grow and share.

Again, it's wonderful to feel in such alignment.

Because the long answer? Well, everything. We've got a world to change, and we're committed to being that change, and, wonderfully, this involves the ongoing growth and transformation of the site.

Still, we on the team completely understand any concerns the community might have. So, if you'd like to voice your feelings, please, please take the opportunity to do so. We'll be listening. And if you're new, well, we'd love to hear from you as well. So welcome!

Now let's change the world. :)
Siona
and the Zaadz Team .

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? -UPDATE

fyi - for all who were interested or concerned about the seeds, there is an update on the zTeam blog here. I'll copy the bulk of the info here, just in case you'd rather not leave DD :-)

And again, I'm interested in any feedback about this and how we make this system work for Diving Deeper and us as a community in general…

Love,
Sandra

First off, it's now impossible to give “negative feedback” to individuals. You can spread the love and show appreciation using the “Give Thanks!” box, but there's no way to poop on someone's profile.

Feedback is given through seeds, which you accumulate by posting or contributing or just being on the site. The more you participate, the more seeds you can spend, either through the “Give Thanks!” boxes or by highlighting posts that you think are deserving of appreciation or notice or by using those seeds to flag content (read on).

If you visit a discussion or blog, you'll see two new little buttons: an “I liked it!” (which helps to highlight contributions you appreciated) and a “Flag for review” (which is meant to mark posts that violate that the terms). Clicking either one 'costs' you a seed.

It's an intentionally abundant system, though—not a zero sum game—because you can always gain seeds just by being on the site. Also, it's not meant, at all, to be about who gathers the most seeds or whose posts get the most clicks.  It's intended instead so that, as a community and a group, we can alert others to the many gems on the site, help organize the tremendous amounts of information and resources out there, and to ensure, in the process, that the community continues (collaboratively!) to embody the values we all agreed to.

An aside: some of you have already tried seeing how quickly you can give your seeds away, which is wonderful. (Though note that no one can see how many seeds you have but you… so the only person you'll be competing with is yourself. But maybe this is always the case…)

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? -UPDATE

I've evolved in my feelings about seeds from mild annoyance to profound indifference. I wrote Siona about the subject  and received a very (and typically) gracious reply. What gives me pause, however, is that for all the talk of community, community, community, I detect an ever-strengthening undercurrent of “It's all about Me.” I'm mostly bored here anymore  – not by you, of course, but by what I see as a rising tide of New Age narcissism. I've met some absolutely wonderful people on Zaadz, some of whom I regard as true friends and several whom I can honestly say I love. Although I correspond with those I'm closest with via personal e-mail, I'll probably stick around just to maintain contact and hold open the possibility of meeting new and vital people. But I have to say honestly that I no longer feel much passion to be involved more deeply than that.

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? -UPDATE

Dearest Burt…
well I'm getting a slightly different 'feel' for what's going on here, and this doesn't mean my 'feel' is on. I've been looking into the Gaiam thing and I do think there is potential here. One of Gaia/m's aims is to try and support not only this virtual community,but also real-time local community ventures. I don't know much about this and it's also a long term vision, but I do see possibility here if only because I know what my brother's been doing in Africa with, of all things, the Gates Foundation.. ie help set up libraries in Botswana that are internet hooked up etc and finding ways to encourage people to use the library and the technology that is made available to them.

The only way I can see to support a shift away from the Me Me's is to do it myself. Hence I've volunteered for the 'task force' to see if we can organise a mediation/elder/wisdom council group to serve the needs of the community, for example. Now, this pushes my envelope quite a bit, and yes, I am also looking to see that it's in balance and doesn't take time away from other things which 'feed' me ( eg my writing), because if I'm not 'fed' then I can't do anything for anyone ( as per Maslow's Hierarchy of needs on my latest blog, mine are not so much to be fed but to write and be involved with music etc).

Re the seeds: I was dismayed by some of the threads that get on the What's Hot list. If I was a newbie, and stumbled on some of these posts, I would never have joined zaadz. However I now see that if the 'seeds' work in the way the zTeam planned them to, what is on the What's Hot list will not be an algorithm of activity and time, but things people actually place value on, which is why, I'm sloooowly beginning to see the point of actually giving seeds out, and NOT randomly or just to 'my friends' but to content that really enlightens me or which I feel raises the bar in general here on zaadz.

Does this make sense?

As you know, my physical state is such that I can't 'get out' as much as some people - therefore this virtual community is a godsend for me, as I am a big community person ( I never thought this was the case, I'm quite stand-offish and like my alone time a LOT), but if I take a look at what I 'do' as being an indicator of what I want/like to do: I'm always communicating, getting people together, forging networks etc. So, I'm still with zaadz, and at the same time I do miss the old days when it was small. But maybe I've just got to 'expand' so it doesn't feel so huge ….

More on this.. but you go first :-)

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? -UPDATE

Any community that counts Sandra Jensen as a member is a community I dearly want to be be part of. I'm stayin'.

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

!
Well…..dear Burt as you know I feel the same way about you. And, I'd actually like to hear what you don't like about what's going on here… I'm easily 'influenced' so I need some balance…
Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Sandra,

As you know, I've posted all over Zaadz since the Seed program first came to my attention. My first reaction was not all that negative.  Then, a couple of friends began to raise a red flag and I really began to read the various threads regarding it and to think about it - a lot.  Consumed by it could be a better word.  I wrote a blog about it.

I was deeply disturbed by the initial presentation that used the word Trust, and reputation score, bad seeds and the folding of content.  Especially the folding of content, which is blatant censorship and the reasons for doing so were never totally clear or strong - potentially.  As writers, I see from some of the posts here (and forgive me, I still have NOT read them all - but have jumped around a bit) that the love of freedom of speech does carry some weight here, perhaps more than in some other places around Zaadz.  I realize the Team/Ownership has backed off a bit from the more contentious ideas that they rolled this out with.

My deepest concern is reserved for the attempt to channel the focus where the “seeds” are indicating it should go.  My understanding is that it is a bit more complex than activity driven.  Still, the best intellectual and spiritual growth comes from inner calling and not from being led by the herd or the powers that be.  I may not always end up in the kindest or most civil place but still the direction, that comes from my soul, takes me to where I need to be, for the next piece of the puzzle or twist in the journey of my life.  A computerized system can definitely not do this for me nor average it out for the group at large and truly accomplish the highest good for each.

That is why the Seed system fails with me.  Oh, I try to be a good sport, for those who care about getting their Seeds and scatter them around as quickly as I accumulate them beyond my comfort zone but it leaves me with a hollow feeling, whenever I participate.  I get no joy from it.  I don't want to be signaled out, even as being especially trustworthy or just plain “worthy” and certainly not the opposite either.  I don't want to be categorized at all.  I either shine or fail - individually with each Zaadzster I come in contact with and it is a reciprocal event we participate in with one another.

I much prefer to write out how I feel and if I just need a quick little line - I like the Shout Out Wall for that quite a lot.  I find the Seeds time consuming to distribute - just another reason I may never find time to write more often for pleasure, which would get me posting more here.  And I've already seen a Blog game of Tag - oh, racking up the Seeds and I don't even know if that was the intention but …there you go, another failure.

I keep coming back and looking again and again at the Seed program.  I read what the Team members say in explanation of it and something is missing about why they want to do this and what it does for them that might either reassure a great many of us or cause us to really run for the hills.  No, I'm not an alarmist - I do keep an open mind and let the unfolding show me.

All the best,

Deborah

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Deborah,

wonderful reading your post here, I love what you say as much as the way you're saying it. very much connect to 'I either shine or fail - individually with each Zaadzster I come in contact with and it is a reciprocal event we participate in with one another.'

I have come to the point where I have accepted the seeds system as something that is not optional but a fact here (so far). I don't use the seeds system as a ranking of posts. what I do is what someone called 'random acts of kindness' - unfortunately forgot who it was - and put out BIG LOVE seeds on each profile page I visit and haven't 'seeded' yet…

that doesn't take much time and gets rid of the seeds I accumulate… other then that I do as I did before - I prefer personal comments on content, I tell people when I enjoyed their posts and move on when I land on a page that doesn't speak to me - I seem to belong to the lucky ones who hardly ever get to see REALLY awful pages or posts… so flagging has never been an issue for me here.

and when I look at the what's supposed to be 'hot' posts from time to time - oh well, I think I must be part of  a minority here, I rarely find something there that really gets me excited. :)

with love and appreciation,
Gabriele

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Gabriele,

Thank you for pointing out where we overlap.  I do not believe we are yet at the point of no return regarding the permanency of the seed system, although we may be close to that invisible line where there can be no turning back from it.

I, too, distribute my seeds in the same way that you do but once one has given any individual all 5 points they can give them no more.  Unless you have thousands of friends or reach out to as many new faces and/or strangers here, you will eventually hit the boundary on that behavior.

I also give one seed to ANY blog I read but that requires I do 2 things at each blog - comment and seed - which slows down how many I can visit and I've never had a lot of time to visit blogs any way.  Not able to do so consistently.  I refuse to flag any as negative but one can never say never in this world.

Like you, I just don't run into really awful pages or posts.  I have seen some contentious posts in pods but I believe at this time, pod posts are exempt from judgement.  So, like you, it is hard for me to really see the NEED for this system in the first place.

I may have looked once or twice at a what's hot but, like you, it didn't resonate.  My own inner guidance gets me where I need to be much better and therefore, I never look at that any more.

You are also appreciated, Gabriele, for your comments on my post.

Deborah

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

I love your letters, Deborah. You save me so much time by writing what needs to be said in a clear and easy-going voice. Love it.

:)

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Sandra,

just read your reply to Burt, AFTER having written mine to Deborah's… let's see if I can influence you a bit! ;)

I've thought about what you say here for a moment:

Re the seeds: I was dismayed by some of the threads that get on the What's Hot list. If I was a newbie, and stumbled on some of these posts, I would never have joined zaadz. However I now see that if the 'seeds' work in the way the zTeam planned them to, what is on the What's Hot list will not be an algorithm of activity and time, but things people actually place value on, which is why, I'm sloooowly beginning to see the point of actually giving seeds out, and NOT randomly or just to 'my friends' but to content that really enlightens me or which I feel raises the bar in general here on zaadz.

The trouble I still see with the ranking system, the one that excists as much as the seeds that are supposed to be an improvement, is that the whole system is based on capitalistic set of mind. it's about more, more, more… expansion of the 'best'… and the best is who gets the most votes…

and how do you get votes? you win them, buy them, persuade them (well, considering our income I would consider being bought! ;)

but seriously. look at the pods, for example. some of them are HUGE. the Integral guys? they are often among the 'hottest' posts, aren't they? so how's that going to change? you have tons of members, all they have to do is put out their 'I liked it it!' seeds, and it's business as usual. I don't see much chance that my dear friends posts I enjoy so much ever 'make it' to the top, or that any of our writing gets so popular here we get offered seven-books-contracts… know what I mean?

I don't see the point in any rankind system. there will always be those who go for making it to the top, no matter how, and those who just do what they do in their smaller networks and never get that much attention from the rest. I don't see how this is going to 'change the world', and interestingly, the more 'changing the world' is thrown around here, I start developing allergic reactions to the whole idea. remember the 'bigger picture' thoughts? they keep coming back forcefully the last couple of weeks - what if what is happening is what is happening, and we have no idea at all what it means and what it's 'good' for?

a lot of what is discussed around here since the 'trust system, now known as seeds system' has made it's appearance seems more and more pointless to me. in a pleasant way, though, I'm not frustrated anymore. there's something relaxing in it actually. there is so much I have to take care of these days, zaadz is not on the top of my list right now! Diving Deeper is something entirely else. DD is my network. my friends are my tribe. I have a life out here I need to take care of. the good thing that happens around all of this is that I've straightened my priorities out. :) and I'm glad we haven't lost Burt in the process!!!

NOW I'll go and work on a story a bit for a change, since I can't seem to write anything fresh these days…

lots of love to all!
Gabriele

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

Deb, Mascha, Gabriele,

I'm having a feeling of deja vu here - in the sense that everything that has been brought up here has been discussed at length on the ThinkTank boards etc - which means that the concerns are still active, of course.

What I'm hearing mostly is an anxiety about being or not being 'at the top' or that dear friends who are quiet and don't post a lot will be at the 'bottom'.

What bottom? Where is it (!)? So they are quiet and don't post much. That's all that happens. Nothing else. They don't get 'rated' as being “poor” members of zaadz ,( by who, in any case? do you think the zaadz team are going to have a look at all the people who don't 'earn' many seeds and go, oh, we don't want that sort in here? Really?) If people don't have a lot of seeds, they don't get 'folded'. It all stays the same as it was before. They are quiet, loving members of the community. WE can support them coming to notice by 'seeding' them, however.

Personally I couldn't care less about this top bottom thing - but I AM interested in content - ie blogs, discussions etc that excite, interest, awe, enlighten me, make me think twice about my ideas/positions etc. I too tend to stick around here on Diving Deeper, for all sorts of reasons – and yet when I poke about zaadz and find a blog or an interesting discussion, it's lovely ( and sometimes shocking, like walking out of a meditation room into the centre of New York).. Zaadz is huge, and I'm sure there are all kinds of things going on that I'm missing - but no matter to that.

For me the seeds are not about personal ranking or a capitalist mindset - but to that point zaadz made it quite clear they were highly focused on 'conscious capitalism' -  if it is an issue for members then this is not the place to be. And of course what conscious capitalism actually means is something to look at ( being discussed here, for example, on the Gaia pod).

I knew this CC thing when I joined zaadz, I had a sort of 'negative' reaction to the term, but since, quite frankly I have virtually no understanding of economics I realised my negative reaction was not mine, but my mother's - who was an active communist/marxist and now is an armchair marxist full of contradictions ( ie complaining that my brother doesn't use his enormous skill base to 'make more money').

For me I sense the seeds can be about what I place value on — yes totally subjective. Not saying this is 'right' or 'better'. I can use the seeds to say this is the kind of thing I want to see more of because it opens me, shows me something I did not know before, shines a light on my blind spots etc etc.

Of course this takes time and care to engage with the 'seeds' in such a fashion. I agree, it feels time consuming and I also agree, i personally prefer to write a note, a comment that expresses 'why' I like something. I would personally like the seeds to not be anonymous, but also to require us to say 'why' we seed the item.

Again, for me it's not about 'people' getting to the top, it's about content, behaviour, not about anyone's intrinsic 'value'. So if I see behaviour (not the person, the behaviour) I feel is off - sexist, racist etc, I can now “flag it” -  and the Flag system requires me to think more than once because you can't just click it,  there is a pop up window etc. And of course, probably only if several people flag something will it get any attention from the team - it's not an automatic 'folding' of content etc. If you want to see an example of how deep and wide zaadz is trying to be with this, have a look at what is lately happening on the ThinkTank thread, Moderating the Community.

And again, the main issue for me, is that zaadz is listening to our p.o.v. – they have changed the name, and many of the functions of the seeds that were originally part of the system, because people spoke up.

Yes, the seeds are still here – and I believe this is all right, because I think it's far too early to say whether they are appropriate here. It all, it seems to me, depends on us and how we use them and we need time to see how it unfolds.

If we had joined zaadz and the system was already here, I somehow doubt anyone would have made a sound. So many sites that I peruse and have fun on ( Stumble ) for example, use a similar system.

To quote our David here:

…The most important part - and this is MY feelings on the matter - is to recognize that we are all on the same side here. No one is out to ‘just make money’. And the angry voices aren’t angry because they are jerks. We all want what’s best but because of our different life-experiences, we have different ideas about what is going to be beneficial. If we can all recognize that- then it won’t matter what tools we are given anyway. We will all see that we are not the ‘right ones’, but rather voices within a whole. A temple of humanity.

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

All these seed talk
flying right by me
in the meantime
curiously       *
innocently                            *
I was placing thank you seed on your site Sandra  *
one of those fluffy dandelion ones *
*            *
    *                    *                         
                                                *

Re: Seeds - the Trust System???

:-)))

Thanks dear Leia.. you are reminding me of what  a dear man I know once said, (usually saying after something really deep and profound)

“And don't forget, don't take it all too seriously..”

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? - and Zaadz to Gaia

I'm new to this whole zaadz experience.  About a year ago, I saw an advert for zaadz in a mag, and signed up.  Not long after, I went into retreat (seclusion/hermitage/pick your own relevant term) and until a month ago not really participated much in what zaadz would deem a meaningful way.  My first notice of the “seeds” program prompted me to give seeds to members in what I thought would be a random way, having no criteria for their award other than my having surfed them up.  The one exception was a member whose favorite person was George Bush.  As I am a lunatic lefty I thought it would be dharmic in some way, although I must confess to having my tongue in my cheek when I did it.  It seemed a bit anti-climactic after, not having any seeds, but I forged ahead reading all I could read in blogs, under logs, in pods, etc.   Those who were in favor of seeds almost unanimously qualified that blessing in some way.  Many, many, more had nothing good to say about them.  Then I read in staff pods, (siona's post?) (I forget who or where) about being folded into a tesseract, or nothingness or a paper hat, as a consequence of not having seeds to call my very own.  Panic set in!!  I briefly considered breathing into a paper bag,  but queried staff instead.  They sent me a non-comittal reply.   I have put “Don't Worry-Be Happy on the CD player,  and I'm keeping on keeping on.  So Hi one and all,  glad to be here in the now, and if someday you see a paper hat that looks like me…….     

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? - and Zaadz to Gaia

Phil!
Well mostly a breath of thank you to you – I have a feeling that many new members do not do what you have done, which sounds like wonderful community activity to me.

And – I'm surprised by the non-committal reply re “not having any seeds”… care to share it? I've read a lot on all this inc. from the team (and have you read Jake's blog, it's worth it, he's the guy who programmed the thing - disenchanted and revisiting disenchanted) and my understanding is that nothing will happen if you don't have any seeds. Seeds are about 'movement', not stasis.

However, If you do nothing at all on zaadz, and I mean just make a profile and then never ever visit again or read anything, ie you walk in the door and walk straight out for ages, you might have to 'rejoin' at some point should you want to come back. I have heard of this happening once - way before the seed programme…

You get a seed everytime you create a blog, share a comment etc. You give away a seed when you 'seed' a blog or a comment, showing that you like the work etc. (and yes, I also quite like your random method, some others are doing that, but in the long run I don't know if it serves anyone or certainly doesn't let zaadz see if the system works according to how they hope it will). If you do a lot of commenting/blogging etc, you will gain a pile of seeds up to a certain ceiling. I do not know what this ceiling is.

 If you keep giving them away, and contributing comments etc (and therefore getting seeds) you are, at least in zTeam terms, being an active member of the community, participating in what they hope will be a way for people to support content that is uplifting, enlightening, supportive ( which could of course also be a 'triggering' blog, something you 'don't like' – if you are someone who chooses to take however you react to something as an 'opportunity' for self inquiry – sorry for the dusty new age talk but it's late and I can't think of a way to restate these things in a fresh way)….

The hope is also that we as a community can support the perhaps quieter voices here – many of us know a few zaadzters who are not so obviously 'active' and yet are truly gems and shining stars, and there are others who are very 'active' and vocal who are not. So, by using your seeds diligently, you can show your appreciation for those who you feel might not get that much attention otherwise.

As I mentioned, right now the What's Hot page has items that have a lot of 'activity' – not necessarily 'quality'. The only way we can, as a community affect a change here, is by making an effort to show our appreciation via the seeds. And, of course, I still believe in commenting, – the 'old' way of showing appreciation…. and my main concern with the seeds, here on DD and in general is that it can be a 'lazy' way to show appreciation. But, I'm willing to see what happens with these seeds…


Gosh. Who'd have thought I'd have so much to say about these damn things! It's like I've been, um, seeded….( I posted a picture of one of them in Hotel California #1. It might explain all the hoo hah)

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? - and Zaadz to Gaia

Or how Hoo Hah seeds grew into a Hoo Hah tree.

I'd rather not go into the reply from staff without first discussing it with that person first.   “He/she said”  can be problematic.  To paraphrase the reply, seeds were harmless.  I asked the question amid other concerns as well, and the staff member chose not to focus solely on seeds in their reply.  My characterization of non-comittal probably stems from that.

My intent was not to reflect negatively in any way on the staff.

I hope to be an active member here in the zaadz community,  but I suspect that I'll probably fit the “quieter member” profile.  In the spring I will probably return to retreat, but will remain open to the possibilities because as we all know, life is what happens while we make plans.

Don't worry about using new age vernacular, cause I'm an old new hippie. (Or was that a *new* old hippie?) Or hippy and old….

Thanks for taking the time to answer, and for the links to wherever I have yet to explore.

shi wei hsi ming. 

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? - and Zaadz to Gaia

Or how Hoo Hah seeds grew into a Hoo Hah tree.

Hah hah hah!
:-)
Sandra

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? - Jake's Update

This was on the “Bring Back Bad Seeds” ThinkTank thread and since the thread is pretty long, I thought it useful to bring the following update from Jake here:

Re: Seeds - the Trust System??? - and Zaadz to Gaia

Okay, anyone interested in the 'latest' on the Seed System:

first, there has been an update to the FAQ's on the system that is definitely worth reading. It outlines far more clearly what this whole thing is about.

And there is a new thread on the Think Tank pod that I feel is just wonderful, started by a new member of Zaadz called Zak - who, to my mind brings a really interesting and fresh energy to not only the specific discussion, but to the community itself. He talks about the garden metaphor - something I would love us all to consider - here is a tiny bit:

When seeds are spent, they are planted, for beautiful flowers and useful trees to grow, for beautiful ideas and useful deeds! And zaadsters don’t get “reputation” or “trust”, they get GARDENS out of the seeds!