Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

I am starting a new mediation thread here on an acute commenting issue. All connected posts will be copied in here. Please feel free to open your own window in this thread and copy your post under your own icon, since I can only copy here, post scannot be moved singularly.

Please put your comments to the issue into this thread.

The responses to assignments thread is NOT for discussing our commenting rules, it is for commenting on the writing solely.

Atman's first post

Re: ANONYMOUS TOPIC: Letter - ii

Sandra,

No doubt my reputation proceeds me.  I am an admitted serial violator of the Diving Deeper commenting rules.  But I intuited that Gabriele having posted this letter did not make her the author of it.  Also, the comment by me was in response to a comment by Gabriele about the letter in which she adopts a powerful position as one that is third party to the letter.  Once again that does not mean that she is not the author of the letter.  However, I took my response to her in this comment to explicitly recognize her as not the author.  So I am surprised for you to have placed this administrative message to me here after this comment.  And I am particularly surprised since I thought we had sort of agreed that if you thought I was out of bounds you would send me a private message rather than publicly spanking me. 

My response otherwise is a function of my style and my personality and my intellect and the architypes that I operate within and things like that.  Would it be that what you are actually saying is that you find my intrusive spiritual white knight type of response offensive?  Would it be that you in this circumstance would rather have no one come to your aid?  Would it be that you would like to impose that ethic upon all others?  Would it be that you are offended that I treated the letter as a cry for help from a real person about a real problem that is so sensitive and serious that they have used the internet and anonymity to scream it out rather than my treating the letter like some two dimensional array of words that I evaluate as to their proper order and what not?

Now, this letter may be pure invention by the author.  The author may have been born with a silver spoon in the mouth and all of the rest.  And, if so, then the author has done a brilliant job of crafting a reality through words that they have absolutely no experience with and I do bow to the skill and I do through my comments inform the author of certain architypical attachments to that which they have written so that they may more fully understand the complex interrelationships that form and exist between human beings.

On the other hand if the author is a real being writing a real letter then I do stand by my comments as my taking a powerful stand for the fulfillment of the magnificience of the authors life now and forever more.  If so, I hope the true author of this letter has read my words in comment to the letter, including these words.  And to that person I now say “Be who you is cause if you be who you ain't then you ain't who you is. Hallmark”  There is no honor in suffering for suffering's sake.  If someone offers a hand to help free you from the suffering take it.  If you think it will be no help let it pass by.  No offense taken.  We live in a sea of words that constitute black magic.  When you get to be bathed in what might be words that constitute white magic take advantage of it every time. 

This is my style Sandra.  I interact with writing rather than evaluate it.  Through my interaction something is available that is not available otherwise.  It is not that I intentionally set out and seek to violate your rules.  It is that I play a different game.  I am always in a dance with the author.  It won't change it is how I think and feel and express.  Maybe I will mature like you at some time in the future but for now at least this is me.  So it's your site.  Kick my butt off of it if you find me so offensive.  Say the words and say them publicly now and I will be gone from your world as you speak them.  We may speak privately through the messages as to the mechanisms to remove any trace of me wholly and entirely from your site.  Shame on you for stepping into the conversation I was having with that author that was within the letter whomever they might be with your rules conversation.  Just what in the heck do you think the purpose of writing something like this letter is anyhow?

Atman      

Tom's response

Rumi Wannabe's response

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

well, I think this is a good idea, Gabriele. It is good to have a space to talk about the commenting guidelines - other than having the comments and discussion coming up in other writing threads… I, personally, find it very distracting having to wade through long comments about guidelines (for or against them) or anything actually connected to the guidelines at all. Definitely it is important to be able to discuss them, but there hasn't really been a thread to do that openly until now.

I like these Anonymous topics because it gives the writer the opportunity to step back and not be identified with the writing itself - it becomes about the writing and not the person - which for me is refreshing. I like having the chance to become unattached - to be read without the inevitable association or reconnection with what the reader is bringing to the experience of reading… it is natural to want to bring the story or letter or whatever back to the author, 'read' more into it, in order to understand more of the background behind it, to know more of the story (I have also been enticed by many many posts here, wanting to know who you are behind the 'I” character - in some way we all love to solve a mystery) The fact that the topics are anonymous, for me anyway, is not that someone can write out of shyness, or write without fear of being judged etc, but that we can write and see how it is received without having to jump and say oh yes, that's me. It takes the 'ego' out of the equation, makign the focus becomes entirely on the writing itself.. and that is beautiful.

I do think it is interesting to see how much someone puts their own perspective into commenting - not on what is in front of them, but what they have interpreted it to be, adding in their own ideas into what they think the author is wanting to say, or suggesting a certain frame of mind or knowing that person's experience…  It has already been said - but we can 'know' someone else's reality… we can empathize, we can share a similar exerience, we can have a shared past, but we cannot walk in the footprints of another person and truly know what they have lived. Similarily, we cannot eat the apple for someone else. The question of whether a piece is a confession, completely autobiographical or completely fiction can overshadow the work itself - and is why there are commenting guidelines in place (makes sense to me anyway)

I think looking at how we comment, looking at the process of how we connect with different pieces as a reader can really help us as writers - we can see how we influence our reading and understanding with our own personal experience, biases, interpretations, and extend it to how others will read and receive our own work. To me that is the challenge of commenting. Not to get too involved in colouring my response with personal reactions and to go into more what the writing does - how it touches me on a deeper level.

Anyway - I just thought I would add my own thoughts here - and ultimately thank you Gabriele for introducing this thread. It's an ongoing issue I think, not only for anonymous posts but for other posts as well - at least it has been since I arrived here in November last year. Good thought.

xo
Leigh-Anne

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

Leigh-Anne, our posts must have crossed.

I'm too tired to read all of yours right now, I just wanted to let you know how very much appreciate your support. I'm curious what else you said - see you tomorrow!

:)

lots of love to all,
Gabriele

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

Leigh- Anne,

I just wanted to say how much I appreciated this post of yours. I read it a few times, and each time something 'new' popped in, as if I understood even more about what you were saying.

Re anonymous postings:
It takes the 'ego' out of the equation, makign the focus becomes entirely on the writing itself..

Yes absolutely. This is key for me personally – the energy required for saying 'thank you' etc, can actually detract from being able to fully 'hear' what the commenter is saying, in my experience. Or, by the time I've said 'thank you', or engaged on a personal level with whoever comments on my work, I'm no longer 'with the writing', I'm involved in a relating. Curiously, I've found that an even 'deeper' relating happens when there isn't this overt communication between fellow writers - when we stay with the writing as the 'means' (subject) of our connection.

and I loved the following so much I'm going to copy it again!

I think looking at how we comment, looking at the process of how we connect with different pieces as a reader can really help us as writers - we can see how we influence our reading and understanding with our own personal experience, biases, interpretations, and extend it to how others will read and receive our own work. To me that is the challenge of commenting. Not to get too involved in colouring my response with personal reactions and to go into more what the writing does - how it touches me on a deeper level.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

dear Atman, Tom and Rumi Wannabe,

I'm sorry I couldn't move your posts here in their original version, with your icon, only threads can be moved, sadly. We have had something like this happening a couple of times by now, and the last time I remember the (also anonymous) author let me know how frustrated they were for their thread not being about their work anymore but about the commenting guidelines…

I think we can all be more aware of the possibility of moving controversial issues that are not about the work away from the writing pods - that's what we have created the possibility of mediation for.

I'm too tired right now and too involved to dive into the discussion more. I'll sleep on this all. I hope you all will forgive me that I deleted your original post on the letter ii thread. I'll be back tomorrow (it's evening now in Germany).


good night!
Gabriele

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

I apologise to everyone for not being here for the 'fall out' of my comment – and thank you so much, Gabriele, for your support and input and help.

On the anonymous letter i, Atman, I noticed you addressed your comment to me,  (great comment, I thought, btw) and when I saw you address your comment on letter ii to Gabriele, I assumed you didn't know that they were not our pieces.

I felt into the 'larger' picture, the group here at Diving Deeper - and figured that if someone was not aware of the 'anonymous' posting system, they might be confused seeing you address a comment thus –   i.e. think perhaps you knew who the writer was and had ignored the guidelines, and I wondered if  this could undermine the purpose of the anonymous assignments.

So, I *thought* I was making a simple 'note' - to you, and to anyone in general. I most definitely could have been more specific and detailed, but while I wanted to make a 'public' comment, I also did not want to pull energy from the work itself.

I apologise if it sounded like I was attacking you, Atman. My comment was not addressed at the content of your comment, only to your addressing the poster directly by name ( i.e. me and then Gabriele) - this is, of course NOT an issue in the other assignments, i.e. it is not a requirement that we don't address the writer by name.

To be clear - for me my comment was not just to you but to anyone reading. When I write here, I do my best to include the larger audience – so sometimes I know that someone isn't exactly following the guidelines and they know this ( eg Tom ), but I might still 'say' something for new members, if I feel it could support their process here.

As for the content of your comment - your desire to 'help' the narrator of the letter – I liked the way you wrote what you did. I personally didn't agree with it and felt it could have more to do with you than with the author – and I loved Andrea's suggestion that you write your response as your own 'letter'.

The issue of 'helping' an author on a personal level is a huge subject. All I can say is that it has been my experience, time and time again, that if I address the work, the art, the craft, - if I speak about the -I- character, as opposed to the 'author', deep and lasting healing has occured. If I address the author directly in a kind of therapeutic fashion, the result seems to be transitory. (I have worked as a 'therapist' – i.e. no writing involved) .

I have found extraordinary 'side-effect' of dealing with the writing in my own work as a teacher, and in the work of of my own teacher - I have watched people go through years of 'therapy' in a single group reading session, where everyone spoke about the 'work', and no one even looked at the writer, or went up to them afterwards and tried to comfort them etc. (in the real life groups, the work is always read aloud anonymously, and all comments are addressed to the group and are about the work. If we know who wrote the work, we maintain the energy and clarity of 'not knowing'.

It seems to have something to do with creating a situation, a 'field', if you will, of separating the story from the person it happened to. This process seems to encourage the person to look at 'what happened' with clearer eyes and heart, to see the beauty and gift of what they went through, and to be able to stop identifying with it. It is a work of 'art', something outside of themselves, something to be appreciated and understood, but not to be 'worked' on, fixed, changed, apologised for, made different, turned into a reason to say 'poor me' etc etc. It is no longer 'ours' when we write it, it leaves our body. Sometimes an area of life needs to be written about over and over again for this to happen, but it does happen.

I have given 'advice' to people here, and to participants of my and my teachers workshops. Curiously I never feel very good when I do this, it's that 'fixing' thing again - and I guess I have tried to fix myself for so many years, I've done with it, or at least know that it hasn't done anything for me other than add to any feelings of 'being wrong' or 'to blame'. And there are beautiful techniques and teachers out there, who do and can support whatever journey we are on. I mention them here – Byron Katie, for example, I recommend anyone who is part of Diving Deeper to look into The Work of hers. It actually supports our creative writing, I believe.

There is one thing about support - if someone directly asks for it, this is a totally different situation. My sense is that if a writer chooses to write an anonymous assignment about some traumatic event, then they are specifically not asking for personal advice. There are countless places here on Gaia where people are in direct engagement about personal issues. We do this here sometimes on the Tree House. People do it here 'off pod'. I feel that this pod has encouraged some of the deepest personal support on Gaia as a whole. I have notes to me saying this explicitly.  I may be wrong, but I think 'it's working' here, as best as it can in an online environment. I'm completely open for suggestions on how to make it work better.

I feel acutely aware that the 'real life' experience of anonymous commenting is missing here – and I know that it is simply one of those things that only really make sense when experienced.

As for you and me, Atman, it is always my preference to share in public, i.e. transparently – it means that if I'm 'off' in response to someone, then I can be called on it and vice versa.

You think that I find you offensive? Is this really true? I feel a bit bewildered at the force of energy coming my way from you – and clearly you are upset. I'm sorry about this. And, if this place isn't working for you, if you don't feel supported as a writer or as a person, I'm sorry about that too. I do not regret any of my comments to you 'in public' - as I've said before, this kind of 'fall out' always seems hugely positive.

I most definitely could have taken the time to ask you in private about the addressing to me/Gabriele piece. I chose not to. I cannot honestly say I would do it differently another time, although I see that this could have been the 'better' choice.

I would have no wish at all to remove your work here, or your comments. I believe that a 'back and forth' like this can support the whole group – maybe you say something that resonates, maybe I do, – maybe we can't come to an 'agreement' together, or to a sense of resolution, but the process itself may have supported others. My commitment is to the pod as a whole, to try and include everyone in whatever occurs here.

Okay, that's way enough from me, I'm sure of this!

I'm on the road all day tomorrow, and will not be able to be here for a day or so.

Love

Sandra

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

Dear Sandra,

Hope you don't mind if I borrow some of your words:

It seems to have something to do with creating a situation, a 'field', if you will, of separating the story from the person it happened to. This process seems to encourage the person to look at 'what happened' with clearer eyes and heart, to see the beauty and gift of what they went through, and to be able to stop identifying with it. It is a work of 'art', something outside of themselves, something to be appreciated and understood, but not to be 'worked' on, fixed, changed, apologised for, made different, turned into a reason to say 'poor me' etc etc. It is no longer 'ours' when we write it, it leaves our body. Sometimes an area of life needs to be written about over and over again for this to happen, but it does happen.

That is an amazing paragraph.

I knew we used magic. Just didn't have the formula written out before in a way I could understand. We are creating a Cosmic Flangoflanger! Oh, okay, now I get it. That paragraph is so beyond words for a lover of art, and someone who holds great hopes for its uses and application. What is art but healing itself? The vision of truth as living freedom.

Problem with our online status is that magical field is hard to establish. When somebody admits up front that what they're about to post is personal experience, I have a hard time talking about 'your character'. It feels fake, which I'm used to at work, but hate here. Not to mention uphelpful. To my chagrin, however, and the embarrassment of the poster, there have been times when I called their totally imaginarary character “you”. I even hurt somebody's feelings so bad one time that I drove them away from DD. That was special not.

As in all things, alas, there must be a balance, a balance between safety and daring. We need this space to be safe for neophyte and even damaged writers, which is difficult when one is diving. Sometimes when I unclamp the iron chains of the inner editor, I say stuff that I find horrifying the next day. Regret, on. But what can ya do? I have to speak from my heart here or it's all b.s. I can live in my brain later.

My hope is that we can follow the commenting guidelines as rules of thumb. Good ideas in most cases but not always. In the physical space that you mention, Sandra, this magical field you speak of is possible in every instance. Here it's not. Negative cowage, havewise. And is ego always so horrible? If it wasn't for ego, I doubt I'd even be a writer. As the only thing I'm really good at, it's how I get my satisfaction as being a worthwhile person. If nobody ever liked my stuff it would be dogpoo city in Tomland.

I might also suggest that we not put people's names in boldface if we have no intention of attacking them. And sign up for a lesson in body language. I also wonder about the difference between the masculine and feminine principles.

Your loving rulebreakbender,

Tom

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

Just a quick thing on the boldface, Tom.. :-)

I've been experimenting with italics/underlining/boldface in my dialogues on-online - partly from seeing how O.M. Bastet uses it elsewhere on Gaia and in particular Zet White, who wrote a blog on this called On Writing Style. Given the lack of body-language, eye contact, tone of voice possibilities in online communicating, I like to explore all ways of clarifying. My use of boldface is only ever to help a reader know if they are being addressed, not to attack or to shout. And, I can absolutely see how this might seem otherwise, particularly if I'm not consistent, and I'm not, which doesn't help with communication at all I can see this.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

Leigh Anne,

I really appreciate that you took the time to respond at such length to the commenting issue. I especially remember that quote from the piece of writing about how we cannot know someone else's reality. Therein lies the challenge for me as a commentor. I want to be able to make my personal connections, because that is the lens I read the piece of writing through. However, I must remember to balance that with the purpose that we are here, and that is to write and help provide feedback for other writers. I find it interesting that this becomes an issue occasionally, and I am glad that you mentioned how you have developed your philosophy on how to leave comments over time. Thank you for sharing that.


Everyone,

I think sometimes we, as writers are willing to say, “Yeah, that's me. I am this “I” character. At other times, we are definitely not the “I” character, and surely don't want to be mistaken for that person on the page. How are you, as commentor, to know which occasion is which? It is safest not to assume, I'd say.

I appreciate the commenting rules that Sandra has established because they help us to have this safe and loving environment in which to work. However, as we get to know one another, it is sometimes hard not to let the human/friendship side infringe upon the writing comments.  I understand that, and I agree with Tom that knowing the people who are writing (at least a little bit) is one thing that makes Diving Deeper a unique and compelling forum. While it is almost impossible to keep the worlds completely separate, I think we need to remind ourselves of what the main purpose of commenting is often enough so we don't slide into becoming a place where people are afraid to post because they see these big arguments about posting that get so heated that they hit the main GAIA page as a hot topic. Today at least, it seems this issue has sucked energy away from everyone's writing that has been recently posted.

Mostly, I know that giving feedback to the writers is just as essential an ingredient of DD as posting new writing. I read what is posted, and if I feel at least a little pull toward it, I try to leave comments. I want to grow as a writer, and I want to help others do the same. The processes are here, all neatly laid out and easy to follow, and I truly believe most of us try to abide by those guidelines. However, it's a thin line between perceptive commenting and hurting someone's feelings. Maybe it is worth it to reread your gut reactions and statements of dislike for the simple sake of respecting the operations of this pod, and the writers that so bravely post here.

Andrea

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

Bring me thine olive branches that we may build a temple, verily, not a pyre.

My experience here (zaadz/gaia) has taught me the following about words.

My words are the clothes I wear.  They are the house where I live.  They are the

vessel that contains all that I hold most dear.  My words are the lilting

counterpoint that must be listened to in order to be heard above the choir.  My

words are the facade and fortress that I can safely hide behind. My words are the

only coin I can spend in this realm.  They are the only bricks and mortar with which

to build in shifting sand.  My words are indistinguishable from me.

Yet,I am not my words.

I have been both mis-understood and mis-understanding in the house I live, and the

songs I sing, and the clothes I wear.  I vow to remember always that you are not
your words.

I love you all.

phil

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

vital reminder, many thanks phil!

Love

nicole

Re: Mediation Thread: A posting from the anonymous author

Please note: This is posted anonymously, protecting the privacy of the author of the  ANONYMOUS TOPIC- Letter ii

Re: Mediation Thread: A posting from the anonymous author

Dear Gabriele,

Thank you for sharing this. I want to thank the anonymous author for speaking this truth. We needed to hear this. We are learning something very important here. This is sacred ground.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

My Dearest and Most Beloved Anonymous Anonymousia,

I don't know how I can thank you for this. For you to share how the angry post affected you really helps me see what we are doing here. And I'm going to do some more rule bendage of mine own by disagreeing with you on whether it was a good thing for you to post that letter at all. It was a masterful stroke on all fronts, especially the courage one. You can see what it has brought up. Pain for many people. But not the kind of pain that is a waste, it is the kind of pain that helps one grow, that makes you look at things a different way. The pain of opening, not closing. I can't speak for others, but I have grown considerably from your decision to post that letter.  If you hadn't done it I would be the lesser for it. That may not mean much to you, but to me it makes your pain a worthy sacrifice on the altar of the muses, more suffering for the artistry bank, with a little left over for the wisdom fund. Also, Phil's hymn to words would never have happened had you not made your “mistake”. That alone makes it a brilliant choice. Your decision was mother to a masterpiece. And Amen on not judging daddy.

This is the spirit land, is it not? I am thee and thou art me? What you see is what you are, or at least a part of what you are. We are not here to judge, for that's a fool's errand, making fun of mirrors, and what good writer is a fool? We are here to write our truth. A dangerous thing to do by its nature, for by refuting the false in ourselves we are endangering it in others and lots of them don't like that. And often we get upset and attack something by accident. That's what happened with Atman. His outrage led him to attack “your father” and didn't let him realize that would be attacking you. Or your character, take your pick. He wanted to fix you if ever he could. Oops.

That's the razor's edge we walk when commenting on others' work here in DD. Do we speak the truth of our emotions, or do we reign them in circumspectly to keep from harming the poster? My writing is powered by blood, and if I try to write with capillaries only we'll end up with a thin and washy brew, if anything at all. Too much thinking and my ink dries up. I will try, though, never to hurt anyone. Can't promise I won't break any rules, however, if I'm being an idiot again. Please accept my apologies in advance.

Well, that's enough mixed metaphors for now!

Much Love and Gratitude,

Tom

Re: Mediation Thread: On Commenting To Anonymous Writing

Everyone,

Thank you.

I was so deeply touched reading the author's response.

While on the one hand I'm with Tom, and so appreciate what happened for *me* reading the response, and indeed this whole process, I'm sad that it seemed to require the author to step in.

That the author should, because of Atman's comment and the ensuing fall-out, even have to consider that the creative writing (the Letter) should not have been posted is so absolutely contrary what this Diving Deeper space is about. To my mind that piece is beautiful work, and deserves to be appreciated for what it is, a work of art, a creative piece that explores difficult territory, allowing the reader 'inside' a world, and an opportunity to see/feel this world in all its complex aspects.

We are, after all, a writing workshop, and while I truly and utterly believe and support the healing aspect to writing, I also believe that this happens simply by doing 'the work', i.e. the emphasis here is always placed on writing.

So, that being said – I am going to do a couple of things:

I ask all of you to take the time to read what has been written about this process. (e.g. my Notes Along the Way, the What is Diving Deeper thread, the On Commenting thread).

My group of moderators and myself are looking into how to deepen the understanding of the Diving Deeper process here, perhaps sharing more of it in bite sized pieces ( as I am wont to go on and on and on…).

And, now I'm going to lock this thread, and say to us all, whatever comes up here while reading this, lets put that energy into our writing.

Go and have a look at the assignments ( – old and new ones, there is no 'order' to doing them), and do one of them, or share some other work with us.

Share ourselves through our writing. This is, to me, the greatest gift any artist can offer the world: their work.

With love and gratitude to all,

Sandra