Gaia: Deceit of the Selfish mind - Great Questions, Great answers. - What actually is enlightenment?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://kathysmith.gaia.com — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 23:03:45 GMT

Enlightenment is reading all of your posts on this thread... It is being in AWE of something or having a new cognition about a subject. It's having enhancement time each day to overcome some obstacle or gain a broader understanding or a simpler way. I feel purpose comes between the age of 2-4. Its great if the authoritarian system of school or the family allows our purposes to unfold.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 21:28:57 GMT

I think I agree.

One can only hope that one day, everyone puts that potential to use...

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Sat, 06 Dec 2008 09:04:41 GMT

In a sense, I did.

Through ignorance we are reborn - yet, the potential to cut through the layers of ignorance and realize the pure, unfettered state of mind, is available to every being.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 23:48:12 GMT

interesting;
I think we are born completely blank, but more important, still, purpose less. They are still dogma-free. And for that reason only, more aware of the use of the world and themselves. Sadly though, they are so subjective too, and too easily influenced.

And overly dogmatized people, force their opinion upon them. Sadly.
And so in years after that, they can try and get rid of it again ... :S

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://vi-pak.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:16:00 GMT

I would dare to say that we are born perfect and all knowing. The ability of a child to assimilate a identiy in any culture on the planet tells me that they have the ability and potential beyond reason. I believe child is born in enlightenment and then becomes aware of their surrondings and then due to the existence on this earth and in this "earth suit" realizes that with the ability of feel and experience existence, comes suffering. Then they must come to the realization themselves that they chose not to indulge in the activites that cause suffering, live in the moment, speak truth, and not attatch to those things that limit our understanding of the universe. This is a great discussion, by the way.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:27:07 GMT

ah, okay, then I agree. I thought you meant something of the sense 'we are all enlightened'

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:02:57 GMT

Could it not be then that overcoming this, is what is enlightenment?

Yes.

( I agree that every person could become enlightened, but that nobody is enlightened ab inition. In my opinion we aren't born enlightened)

I understand where you are coming from.

We are born ignorant, with the potential for enlightenment.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 11:23:37 GMT

Could it not be then that overcomming this, is what is enlightenment?

( I agree that every person could become enlightened, but that nobody is enlightened ab inition. In my opinion we aren't born enlightened)

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:25:44 GMT

Ignorance.

Accumulated ignorance; habitual patterns; beilef in a permanent sense of self and the fight to maintain and further that individual entity.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 09:15:13 GMT

well, then of course the question becomes:
If we are all enligthened, how come most people still hae a very obstructed mind, and pursui trivial concepts on a daily basis out of dogmatic beliefs?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:13:06 GMT

Enlightenment is not something to be gained as we already have it / are it.

Enlightenment is the natural, unobstructed nature of mind, in its purest form, which gives rise to all phenomena.

Enlightenment can not be expressed by words but can only be experienced.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:54:05 GMT

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://silentblowingwind.gaia.com — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:40:34 GMT

And perhaps that is enlightenment....to 'detatach from trivial things in life that hold us back.'

:)

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://vi-pak.gaia.com — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:19:13 GMT

Dynamic in our reality. Does the laws that exist in our reality apply to evertything and everyone? I believe this answer is a no. We are limited in many different applications of understanding in this earth suit. This is the difficulty in understanding the themes of: time, and infinate smallness and infinate bigness. All we can do is not worry about these limitations, detatach from trivial things in life that hold us back. The easiest thing to do in the present moment: Laugh.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://silentblowingwind.gaia.com — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:34:56 GMT

Fear might not be a bad thing.It's not just a feeling.It's a response your body gives to a particular stimulus.Or probably any living thing for that matter. It's like an alert signal sometimes. It's sort of protective then. It's like water. With an acid it's like an alkali and with an alkali it's like an acid.

What good is a roller-coaster ride if you're not even slightly afraid? Why do horror movies have an audience?That sometimes you do enjoy because there is fear.It's just what you do with that fear. Do you let it hold you back or do you let it prepare you?And sometimes one should be held back. Besides, it doesn't make anyone smarter. People do stupid things out of bravery too.

If you are losing an attachment to yourself, losing ego seems just a part of it.You lose the basic "nurture" too. If you don't care about yourself,you don't care whether you're happy or not. In that case enjoyment doesn't find it's place there.Because if you lose all attachment, it might mean you lose your attachment to happiness, bliss and empowerment too.Not only in the sense, that it's okay if you don't have it,but you don't care about it even when you have it.

'Don't attach too much to yourself.'
I find that better than not attaching to myself at all.I would find it easy if I knew what I should attach to and to what I would rather not.

'We have this conjured up idea that we have to achieve stuff before death.'
I think what you're trying to say here is that we are told we have to do this and that before we die. But what about the stuff, you would like to do, on your own.If there was no death, would you want to just lie down for eternity and do nothing?Even if you want to do it, you would probably feel lazy, because you have forever.Death is like an inspiration, to recognize what is important to you, and to do that.If you are not attached to death, it probably would make you lazy.Then again, nothing would be important to you because you have lost all attachments.

And all this is alright.But what I wonder is...Does one still remain to be called living?Does it make you mechanical?

Death brightens up life.It inspires you to live more.The lack of sadness does not mean you have greater happiness.Infact I think it is sadness that increases happiness.Because the distance between -10 and +18 is more than the distance between 0 and 18.But then again, if you lose all your attachments, you don't even have an 18. You just have a zero that is not even dynamic.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:18:02 GMT

"If you woke up today and everything you thought was true wasn't how angry would you be?"

It probably would be the same as all days in my life. What I think is true. Is what I see. If I see something different, I know that is true. So, I don't know how to contradict that. Even if what I see isn't true. It would still be what I see. And what I don't see, I don't care. So, yes, still the same.

No attachement doesn't mean a boring life. It is however highly unwanted in relationships. And one either needs to be very wise and creative to overcome something like that. For it isn't easy to stay at one place, at one person for so long, without seeing the use of it...

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:10:52 GMT

If you have nothing to gain, and nothing to lose. you have nothing to look for, or nothing to be afraid of losing. In essence, you are without goal, and without fear. Yeah, I can live with that. All that remains is enjoying what you have present at that moment. And you don't have fear (which is good, but not in the wild :P)

I think losing attachement to oneself is important to. Perhaps this is the entire Idea of 'losing Ego'
It is the image of self, the conviction of a certain manifestation of a self. That is outlawed by mainstream. Then again, I say that you shouldn't deny yourself change anyhow. And hence. Don't attach too much to yourself. :P

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://vi-pak.gaia.com — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:50:15 GMT

Attachment usually is holding on to things in the past, or things that will happen in the future. Death is a good one to start with. Most of us have an intimate attachment with death. We have this conjured up idea that we have to achieve stuff before death (does that rhyme?).

We are all, especially here at Gaia, trying to figure out what this existence is. If you woke up today and everything you thought was true wasn't how angry would you be?

Your answer to that question is your ego. This is another problem with attachment. Mostly because this is mostly stuff that you learned before the age of six from your parents and how they viewed the world and relationships. This attachment to ego is the attachment to oneself that we seem to focused on. But I digress.

No attachments does not mean a boring and meaningless life. Although some choose to sit in a cave and mediate, this is not the only path. Mediation does seem to be one of the quickest ways to achieve this glimpse to the total connectedness of the universe. But the total opposite, living with this feeling of bliss and empowerment over your life.

I do not claim to be enlightened, but I have had fleeting moments of this bliss. Without the use of any reality altering stimulants :)

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://silentblowingwind.gaia.com — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:08:03 GMT

I'll play around with that.
I consider that attachment is related to dependency.So that statement , it kind of has absolute independence as it's aim.Or at least as an effect.
Making enlightenment ,in a way, anti-evolution. :P
I'd like to put dependencies between two things into 3 categories- parasitism(loss of one, gain of another), commensalism( gain of one, other unaffected) and mutualism(both benefit).
So if you lose all forms of attachment, resulting in loss of all dependencies...you not only don't have anything to lose, but nothing to gain either,though suffering is just confined to parasitism, and that too if you're not the parasite.

And since you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain,it makes you isolated, since that would be the only case.Which could go as enlightenment doesn't make you one with existence.On the contrary, it shifts to the idea that enlightenment would separate you from it . Makes it go against the idea of oneness. :S

So as long as gain and oneness are not a part of enlightenment, that statement could be alright. Because I still do not know what enlightenment is.

Of course, this is just considering one factor. But it was all that I could think of.

Does ALL include not being attached to oneself too?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:57:37 GMT

Then I can give you a counter question;
As for my own definition of my own enlightenment; (I brought up only mainstream enlightenment before)

Seeing, that we do not only attach ourself to our pains, but also to our good things. (even though regular enligthenment teachings suggests that out of all these things, negative attachement will follow, and hence enter the Dogma) We also attache ourselves to items, we might never encounter the negative aspect of in our lifetimes.
Examples like children, hobbies and other. Yet, strictly speaking, these too are a form of attachement.

What is you guys take on the following statement:
Enlightenement requires us (among things) to lose ALL forms of attachement.