What actually is enlightenment?

And what is it's purpose?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Good question! I can't answer it, but I have an anecdote.
Some years ago a very good friend of a very good friend came back from a years travelling in India. He seemed to have undergone some kind of mental breakdown, feeling he was a new messiah, with a message for the world. He was clearly very disturbed, and we kept a very close watch on him. I spent many hours with him talking about his experiences, and I spent time talking to my friends to find out what he had been like before the change.
Although he was mentally hyperactive ( I have no medical training ) his new state of mind involved a radically changed world view, which was remarkably similar to my own. He had changed from an “ordinary” person, content with his life and the world around, into a “radical”, completely sickened by the worlds extemes of poverty, healthcare, opportunity etc. The more we talked the more we had in common.
Now I do not particularly consider myself to be enlightened, but from my perspective it could appear that he had become “enlightened” as he had changed almost overnight to a belief system I could agree with. (Twenty years on he is still a changed man, but rather less intense)
BUT what if he had changed overnight from holding my views into a greedy uncaring capitalist or fascist. Then I would not be so keen to view it as enlightenment.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I don't think that there is one clear view of enlightenment.
You can go with my priour definition made in: http://domus-ulixes.gaia.com/blog/2008/10/why_enlightenment_isnt_inevitable

And so I will define 'Enlightenment' as; 'The extinction of greed, hate and therefore attachement, while achieving full liberation from delusion.
Where concepts like Greed and Hate are personal definition different per person. And 'Liberation of delusion' meaning a form of self awareness that makes on tackle its own weaknesses, and recognizing ones one illusions. And keeping a truthful view of the world around him. Not assuming more then is absolutely necessary.

A purpose? I don't know. It has a personal value, but nothing objective. It Gives you some peace of mind though. Don't know if that is a purpose.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I'm quite confused, because both views seem contradictory to me.

Chapparal, your friend was mentally hyperactive.Whereas Domus mentions peace of mind.
Also, he seems to have a lot of attachment with the world, contradictory to extinction of attachment.

I'm also thinking that a person who would be able to reach a state devoid of greed, hate and delusions should probably already have a peace of mind.Because an unstable person is unlikely to be able to do that.

But now that you do mention Buddhism.It does kind of sound similar to Chapparal's friend here.
Gautuama Buddha left on his journey because he was depressed. Depression isn't a very sound state.And again, going back to what Domus says about a peace of mind. Buddha ,as it is mentioned , appears to have reached enlightenment from an initial state of depression.Which would mean that it could be a purpose, which makes me contradict myself in a way.

But it's good that I read a few lines in Wikipedia. I think I could put it this way that Gautama Buddha sought enlightenment primarily because he wanted to overcome old age, illness, and death. Which could be said as a purpose.Which could probably also be a greed to do so. Which then makes enlightenment a fulfillment of a greed rather than being free from it.

Then later, he wanted to find out the Truth. Which could be the immediate purpose. But since he would be free from greed, what would be “the use” of knowing the truth? That he would just know it.But since he doesn't want anything, that is all.

Also going to the concept of Nirvana (the state of being free from both suffering and the cycle of rebirth.), would mean being unhappy with life.Because you want something again only if you like it. But if you want to achieve nirvana, the factor that brings the idea seems similar to that of…ehm…suicide.Only with long term effects.(Then again, he was said to be depressed.)
But they changed that later I think.

And if he really had lost all attachments, why did Gautama Buddha teach other people?But since he did teach, he must have wanted them to benefit, implying that he did care.

So, in the end, I confused myself even more.Maybe my interpretation is all wrong.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I once referred to enlightenment in a song as “knowing that it is”.
I don't hold to the view that things have a purpose, only that things can be put to a purpose. But then I was considering a Western form of enlightenment, which I suspect differs spiritually from the Eastern one.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

What is the western concept of enlightenment?

:)
Yes, it may not have a purpose.But I was wondering why so many people want it.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I do not know what 'western englightenment' is. All I know is my own :P
I don't think it has much purpose except perhaps for someone self.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I believe we are born enlightened -and some are blessed
to stay that way their entire life.
Other's however, lose their way,and regain it later on in life.
We say they have become enlightened ( all being,all knowing)
-when they have just re-gained themselves!
But it is hard to stay in the same enlightened state we are meant to be in- in this pre-programmed World of ours-
no wonder we feel such
joy at shedding the “bull shit” from our lives!!

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

My understanding of Western enlightenment, is that it dates fom the 18th centuary, and was a philosophy governed by reason and individualism, rather than tradition. I am not a student of this philosophy, but I have little respect for blind tradition.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

aha, well the 'Age of enlightenment' is referred to as such. But it has not really much to do with eastern Enlightenment at all. It was emerging out of the 'dark ages'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

If you can remember a time during your deepest depression,,, you can remember your pain quite clearly.   Because this is the feeling, life, and total immersion into ones pain and sometimes self hatred or, in a Buddhist term, suffering.

This could encompass the awareness of Enlightenment.  Which is the awareness of your existence at this moment right now. (and is neutral neither good or bad)  That is it.  It is unavailable in the past or the future.  It can also be a constant awareness or have fleeting moments of bliss during a beautiful sunset or looking in the pale blue of a babies eyes.

 

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Then I can give you a counter question;
As for my own definition of my own enlightenment; (I brought up only mainstream enlightenment before)

Seeing, that we do not only attach ourself to our pains, but also to our good things. (even though regular enligthenment teachings suggests that out of all these things, negative attachement will follow, and hence enter the Dogma) We also attache ourselves to items, we might never encounter the negative aspect of in our lifetimes.
Examples like children, hobbies and other. Yet, strictly speaking, these too are a form of attachement.

What is you guys take on the following statement:
Enlightenement requires us (among things) to lose ALL forms of attachement.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I'll play around with that.
I consider that attachment is related to dependency.So that statement , it kind of has absolute independence as it's aim.Or at least as an effect.
Making enlightenment ,in a way, anti-evolution. :P
I'd like to put dependencies between two things into 3 categories- parasitism(loss of one, gain of another), commensalism( gain of one, other unaffected) and mutualism(both benefit).
So if you lose all forms of attachment, resulting in loss of all dependencies…you not only don't have anything to lose, but nothing to gain either,though suffering is just confined to parasitism, and that too if you're not the parasite.

And since you have nothing to lose and nothing to gain,it makes you isolated, since that would be the only case.Which could go as enlightenment doesn't make you one with existence.On the contrary, it shifts to the idea that enlightenment would separate you from it . Makes it go against the idea of oneness. :S

So as long as gain and oneness are not a part of enlightenment, that statement could be alright. Because I still do not know what enlightenment is.

Of course, this is just considering one factor. But it was all that I could think of.

Does ALL include not being attached to oneself too?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Attachment usually is holding on to things in the past, or things that will happen in the future.  Death is a good one to start with.  Most of us have an intimate attachment with death.  We have this conjured up idea that we have to achieve stuff before death (does that rhyme?). 

We are all, especially here at Gaia, trying to figure out what this existence is.   If you woke up today and everything you thought was true wasn't how angry would you be?

Your answer to that question is your ego.  This is another problem with attachment.  Mostly because this is mostly stuff that you learned before the age of six from your parents and how they viewed the world and relationships.  This attachment to ego is the  attachment to oneself that we seem to focused on.  But I digress.

No attachments does not mean a boring and meaningless life.  Although some choose to sit in a cave and mediate, this is not the only path.  Mediation does seem to be one of the quickest ways to achieve this glimpse to the total connectedness of the universe.  But the total opposite, living with this feeling of bliss and empowerment over your life. 

I do not claim to be enlightened, but I have had fleeting moments of this bliss.  Without the use of any reality altering stimulants :)

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

“If you woke up today and everything you thought was true wasn't how angry would you be?”

It probably would be the same as all days in my life. What I think is true. Is what I see. If I see something different, I know that is true. So, I don't know how to contradict that. Even if what I see isn't true. It would still be what I see. And what I don't see, I don't care. So, yes, still the same.

No attachement doesn't mean a boring life. It is however highly unwanted in relationships. And one either needs to be very wise and creative to overcome something like that. For it isn't easy to stay at one place, at one person for so long, without seeing the use of it…

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

If you have nothing to gain, and nothing to lose. you have nothing to look for, or nothing to be afraid of losing. In essence, you are without goal, and without fear. Yeah, I can live with that. All that remains is enjoying what you have present at that moment. And you don't have fear (which is good, but not in the wild :P)

I think losing attachement to oneself is important to. Perhaps this is the entire Idea of 'losing Ego'
It is the image of self, the conviction of a certain manifestation of a self. That is outlawed by mainstream. Then again, I say that you shouldn't deny yourself change anyhow. And hence. Don't attach too much to yourself. :P

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Fear might not be a bad thing.It's not just a feeling.It's a response your body gives to a particular stimulus.Or probably any living thing for that matter. It's like an alert signal sometimes. It's sort of protective then. It's like water. With an acid it's like an alkali and with an alkali it's like an acid.

What good is a roller-coaster ride if you're not even slightly afraid? Why do horror movies have an audience?That sometimes you do enjoy because there is fear.It's just what you do with that fear. Do you let it hold you back or do you let it prepare you?And sometimes one should be held back. Besides, it doesn't make anyone smarter. People do stupid things out of bravery too.

If you are losing an attachment to yourself, losing ego seems just a part of it.You lose the basic “nurture” too. If you don't care about yourself,you don't care whether you're happy or not. In that case enjoyment doesn't find it's place there.Because if you lose all attachment, it might mean you lose your attachment to happiness, bliss and empowerment too.Not only in the sense, that it's okay if you don't have it,but you don't care about it even when you have it.


'Don't attach too much to yourself.'
I find that better than not attaching to myself at all.I would find it easy if I knew what I should attach to and to what I would rather not.


'We have this conjured up idea that we have to achieve stuff before death.'
I think what you're trying to say here is that we are told we have to do this and that before we die. But what about the stuff, you would like to do, on your own.If there was no death, would you want to just lie down for eternity and do nothing?Even if you want to do it, you would probably feel lazy, because you have forever.Death is like an inspiration, to recognize what is important to you, and to do that.If you are not attached to death, it probably would make you lazy.Then again, nothing would be important to you because you have lost all attachments.

And all this is alright.But what I wonder is…Does one still remain to be called living?Does it make you mechanical?

Death brightens up life.It inspires you to live more.The lack of sadness does not mean you have greater happiness.Infact I think it is sadness that increases happiness.Because the distance between -10 and +18 is more than the distance between 0 and 18.But then again, if you lose all your attachments, you don't even have an 18. You just have a zero that is not even dynamic.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Dynamic in our reality. Does the laws that exist in our reality apply to evertything and everyone? I believe this answer is a no. We are limited in many different applications of understanding in this earth suit. This is the difficulty in understanding the themes of: time, and infinate smallness and infinate bigness. All we can do is not worry about these limitations, detatach from trivial things in life that hold us back.

The easiest thing to do in the present moment: Laugh.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

And perhaps that is enlightenment….to 'detatach from trivial things in life that hold us back.'

:)

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

:)

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

well, then of course the question becomes:
If we are all enligthened, how come most people still hae a very obstructed mind, and pursui trivial concepts on a daily basis out of dogmatic beliefs?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Could it not be then that overcomming this, is what is enlightenment?

( I agree that every person could become enlightened, but that nobody is enlightened ab inition. In my opinion we aren't born enlightened)

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

ah, okay, then I agree. I thought you meant something of the sense 'we are all enlightened'

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I would dare to say that we are born perfect and all knowing. The ability of a child to assimilate a identiy in any culture on the planet tells me that they have the ability and potential beyond reason.
I believe child is born in enlightenment and then becomes aware of their surrondings and then due to the existence on this earth and in this “earth suit” realizes that with the ability of feel and experience existence, comes suffering. Then they must come to the realization themselves that they chose not to indulge in the activites that cause suffering, live in the moment, speak truth, and not attatch to those things that limit our understanding of the universe.
This is a great discussion, by the way.

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

interesting;
I think we are born completely blank, but more important, still, purpose less. They are still dogma-free. And for that reason only, more aware of the use of the world and themselves. Sadly though, they are so subjective too, and too easily influenced.

And overly dogmatized people, force their opinion upon them. Sadly.
And so in years after that, they can try and get rid of it again … :S

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

In a sense, I did.

Through ignorance we are reborn  - yet, the potential to cut through the layers of ignorance and realize the pure, unfettered state of mind, is available to every being. 

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

I think I agree.

One can only hope that one day, everyone puts that potential to use…

Re: What actually is enlightenment?

Enlightenment is reading all of your posts on this thread… It is being in AWE of something or having a new cognition about a subject.  It's having enhancement time each day to overcome some obstacle or gain a broader understanding or a simpler way.  I feel purpose comes between the age of 2-4.  Its great if the authoritarian system of school or the family allows our purposes to unfold.