intellect - > experience

Many years ago I got turned onto the idea of non-duality.

What practices and experiences have people had that “solidify” the experience of a non-dual universe?

I'm not sure i could put a finger on anything concrete, but i do know that as time goes on (yes, how dreadfully linear of me) my day to day experience seems to be more in line with my beliefs.

Just trying to get this party started.

Re: intellect - > experience

For myself, it seems as though the reality of nonduality is solidified by a continuing identification with it…not by any experience in particular.

“Truth is verifiable only by identity with it and not by knowing about it.” -David R. Hawkins

-Rob

Re: intellect - > experience

How could one have an “experience” of non-duality? That would imply an experiencer and that which is experienced. There would still be a witnesser to report on something…all of which is dualistic. While Reality may be non-dual…seems funny for someone to potentially say they are “practicing” non-duality.  How is that even possible? 

Re: intellect - > experience

I was not inviting a debate over semantics or the obvious problems with using a linear, subject-object language to discuss something non-linear or non-dual. Point conceded, you win. (It's a fruitless discussion in this case but might make an interesting stand alone thread).

Robs quote:

“Truth is verifiable only by identity with it and not by knowing about it.” -David R. Hawkins

Points towards some useful stuff.

Obviously there's the whole experiencer vs. experience conundrum, but new paradigms are in order.

An example is Insight. Have you ever had an experience where you simply felt that “all is one”? I mean where you experienced youself and everything else as an interconnected whole, perfect as it was and infinite and complete? it is possible to lose the distinction, where the witness and the witnessed merge. All it takes is a second. But yes, obviously it's difficult (at best) to talk about. Perhaps this gives rise to religion?

Once you have a taste you want to cultivate yourself to experience that more and more, to a point where you no longer identify with your ego as seperate from the rest of the cosmos, where you can “feel” like you are indeed not just a part, but completely and totally the whole enchilada!

I guess what I was asking about was what kinds of things can we do to cultivate periods of direct experience of advaita?

Re: intellect - > experience

I work in a restaurant, and sometimes it gets insanely busy there…especially in the kitchen. I think this phenomena is common with athletes too…quite often when doing something intense like that, the self just melts away, and all that’s left is the perfect unfoldment of being….
…at work everyone jokingly calls it the ‘pizza dance’…where everyone just shuts off their brains and watches as everything gets done perfectly and efficiently.

I think the factor that facillitates such an experience is surrendering the idea that you could accomplish something like that without the agreement of the universe….so you become the universe….or somesuch thing.

…as far as formal practice goes…meditation….prayer….sometimes when I’m at church…typical stuff….circumstances that are designed to be fruitful to the spirit…definitely had the ‘all is one’ experience with each of those.

-Rob

Re: intellect - > experience

“Enlightenment through the pizza dance… it's the only true way, Grasshoppa…”  *lol*

I know what you mean.  I think it's very much a “now” thing… focus on the moment, performing as efficiently as you can in the moment.  As the past and future fade and your life becomes more in the now, as you said, Rob, the self melts away and all becomes a dance, perfect and efficient.  And then the customers get to enjoy the pizza.  What could be better?

Tim

Re: intellect - > experience

Oh … The “non dual” experience

it happens,

someone writes about it,

an “ego” reads about it,

so the ego wants to 'know' more, and more and more “about” it

because the ego cannot have it, it needs to not feel inferior because of this and so it needs more and more and more “information” about it… to talk about it, although it has not nor could not have it… it even will believe it has had it and then defend it, and discuss it as if it has had it… and mostly quote others who have written about it… so the best scholars who have read, discussed, disected and think they have “understood” it … win … in this game of “knowing” … sad thing is that they go off and start “teaching” others about it… it is so funny…

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is the ego separate from everything?
if the nondual experience has any validity, then the ego is included in the nondual allness.

…and when it comes to recounting the experience, of course there’s gonna be some ego involved…at least for anyone who is not at rest in a high state of enlightenment.
Can it really ‘happen’ when we have an aversion to the ego though?
It would seem that it’s helpful to understand the ego’s place in all this…but an aversion to it might be counter productive.

-Rob

Re: intellect - > experience

Re: intellect - > experience

it's kinda tricky till you do some work (maybe a lot of work)…

= = =

Rob: “is the ego separate from everything?”

= = =

The “ego” is imaginary, fictitious, “made up” and is the essence of the perceived separation… it does not exist, except in your own mind.

= = =

Rob: “if the nondual experience has any validity, then the ego is included in the nondual allness”

= = =

This is the logic of the “ego” trying to survive… to keep you from knowing the truth.

= = =

Rob: “…and when it comes to recounting the experience, of course there's gonna be some ego involved…at least for anyone who is not at rest in a high state of enlightenment.”

= = =

do you know that? or is that something you read or deduced from reading / studying this stuff?  What is your definition of “a high state of enlightenment” in your particular statement?

should I assume from what you said there are lots of lower states of enlightenment where there is ego involved?

= = =

Rob: “Can it really ‘happen' when we have an aversion to the ego though?
It would seem that it's helpful to understand the ego's place in all this…but an aversion to it might be counter productive.

= = =

Why have an “aversion” to ego?… once you see it is a fraud… you can do as Dr. Hawkins does and make a “pet” out of your ego… and let it be… don't try to squelch it… just watch it and appreciate it as part of how we live in this world … yes, understand what it is and if/when you have a non dual experience you will see that it cannot “happen” while thinking you are having the experience…

you cannot make it happen, it's like trying to make a piece of wood turn into driftwood by painting it, rubbing it, blowing on it, etc… but if you put the piece of wood in the appropriate environment, and take away the zip lock bag or wrappings (mind/distractions) it will happen in time…

There's enough detailed instructions, in almost any form you can imagine, so there's no reason to delay… except the “ego” wants the perceived label of “enlightenment” right now … and makes you think, and think, and try to deduce, and use logic to solve the puzzle, and try to defeat ideas that don't match your own… it's ok, you can defeat any idea with logic… the proof is in the pudding… and the interior compass knows … you have your own expert inside you that is or will be your guide… no one outside can take the place of that.  And when you know, you know you know.

Re: intellect - > experience

= = =
This is the logic of the “ego” trying to survive… to keep you from knowing the truth.
= = =

the body that lives and dies is still an aspect of the nondual allness. What has the ego trying to survive got to do with it? The ego is finite…that much is true…but all that is finite exists within the context of the infinite. So by virtue of being percieved, it is real.

‘Illusions exist’ I guess you could say. People seem to think that illusions themselves are illusory…when it’s just a matter of context….the meaning of something might be decieving in a limited context….hence the effect of illusion….but seeing it for what it is, in a greater context, it’s no less what it is. The title/perspective is all that’s arbitrary.
…same with the ego…when it’s not seen as ‘me’(can still be mine), then it’s rendered quite benign. There’s nothing wrong with the ego…it serves the function it is designed for very well.
…so well in fact, that one can pursue God and let go of any involvement with the ego entirely.

Only by the grace of God do we actually ascend toward enlightenment anyway…why bother in thinking we could dissolve the ego any sooner than the will of Divinity would permit?
In the mean time, we can own it…recognize it as part of the nondual allness.

-Rob

Re: intellect - > experience

Hello all

I read something an Indian pandit of Avaita Vedanta remarked about ego.  There are aspects to ego he said, prideful and one that's very valuable, awareness.  It's hard not to get into semantics and the different definitions of terms but this fellow was pointing out, and I'm trying to concur with Rob here, that ego definitely has its proper place.

And just to chime in on sahajanath's original question…after practicing sexual tantra with my wife, I was laying in bed sort of in a very weak mined state (ha, ha) which is to say the thoughts I was having were not forceful or demanding attention.  They were just floating by like very wispy clouds.  Then BAM, the ground of being opened up and I felt I was falling into this immense and shattering vibration and saw utter darkness rising which my ego interpreted as oblivion and I recoiled and it abruptly closed before I got in it.  Afterward, I wished I had been able to take the fall.  The vibration felt like pure Love and Life - no words are acurate really. 

Now, however, I realize that I want to find a way to oscillate in and out of that state and this world.  I wish to be lost in neither but aware of both.  And this may make no sense to any of you but it does to me, that awareness of both, the void I instantly experienced and the world I presently experience sort of  truthfully defines each as the other and that's what non-duality really means (to me).  Rather than voiding opposites or siding with one or the other, you include them and they simply reveal themselves as the same One thing.

I go to Doc Hawk's sky and cloud analogy to make sense of this.  A cloud makes no sense without the backdrop (context) of the sky nor could the sky make sense without clouds or the sun (content).  I added a bit there to finish my point.

Love One Another   

Re: intellect - > experience

Rod…


Trying to recreate probably won't, unfortunately.  I've found that the ego will recognize it coming, comment on it and it'll be lost.  It's probably better not to look for it.

Not all of these experiences are profound, too.  Divinity can be “touched” at will once you're attuned.  The joy, warmth and awe that's allowed in at that moment is usually more subtle, yet still amazing.


Tim

Re: intellect - > experience

Hi Tim-

Slow down my good man.  I'm most definitely not trying to recreate anything or look for it.  I'd like to prepare the ground for it to happen again though.  Like you, I'm aware of the fact that something like this happens of its own accord.  And also like you, I've had many subtle experiences of Divinity.

More in line with gist of this thread, I want to identify with that allness while not losing this world.  I really intuit that an oscillation between the two is what works for me and I'm working on and looking for that…How to oscillate, be a sine wave with the proper speed and amplitude that crests in the unmanifest and troughs in the manifest, so to speak, resting in neither but flowing constantly through both and thus realizing that they are the same and non-dualistic.  Again this is my intuition and it's hard to accurately place into words.  Hawkins, Wilber, Tolle, and others have the gray matter to do that, not me. 

But for sure, I'm not trying to recreate anything…it's already there.  That I know and I can identify with.

Fun stuff to talk about, though.

Love One Another

Re: intellect - > experience

Rod was heard to utter:
“the void I instantly experienced and the world I presently experience sort of  truthfully defines each as the other and that's what non-duality really means (to me).  ”

Interesting… it sounds like the experience described when one crosses the abyss in the Thelemic tradition. One has an experience of crossing over to the abyss (or void), and then the trickier part of coming back. Ideally there is a state where you are able to cross back and forth and is likely identical to the shamanic experience. I've seen other traditions where this was more fully fleshed out as “the Underworld”.

I believe (I may be wrong) that Kaballah, at least the pre 1990's western magic version, was about being able to travel from malkuth to kether, or from the world of gross materialism to the world of sublime light, and this might also be a way of metaphorically describing your experience?

Yeah, I've been getting into Advaita lately. Luckily we have a world class collection of Hindu and Tantric works at the Cleveland Library.

And now, I must spank my little ego for mistaking my knowledge of these things for the actual experience… (more a gentle chiding than a spanking really… ;)

Re: intellect - > experience

sahajanath - Howdy

I'm not familiar with the Thelemic tradition, always something new to check out….

When I talk about oscillating, here, I think it's different to shamanic work as you are “crossing over and back” rather rapidly so that you are rising and dipping into these, shall we say states or realities, many many times a minute or second for that matter with a speed and amplitude so fast and vertical that you see no separation between the two. And in my model (ha!) you don't leave the wave.  I guess you could liken it to Zen's razor's edge of Now but it seem different somehow to me.

Some of this I know comes from my study of Walter Russell's work which has many correlates to Hawkins, Wilber, Tolle, and the founders of the great religions.

I will be quite for a while…talk amongst yourselves.  I love this stuff.

Re: intellect - > experience

the wave, the material realm, the nonmaterial realm, and that which oscillates between them…all One.

Buddha said ”Suffering exists, but none who suffer.”
and it would seem that it would be just as true to say “Experience exists, but none who experience.”

“Truth is verifiable only by identity with it, not by knowing about it.” -David Hawkins

With that in mind, nondual experience is likely had by identifying oneself with nondual reality….not with any segment of what that might entail…..but rather, with the whole shebang. That which everything is contained within(context) and all that is contained within it(content).

-Rob

Re: intellect - > experience

Fascinating and somehow there's something about it that rings true, though possibly only through linear translation of a higher, non-linear reality that there would be no here/there to oscillate to, from or within.

When you think about it in those terms, you're seeking to maintain a here versus there while attaining a lack of here versus there and even the two principles are at odds… at least in a dualistic world where there can be two principles.  (Bakes your nooooodle, don't it?)

It seems to me that seeking non-duality would potentiate the experience of “both and yet neither” while seeking both with a recognition of them as separate either / or to experience in oscillation would not potentiate it since it'd be seeking non-duality through focus on duality.

In other words:  To obtain the two in unity, you'd need to seek the ONE, the non-dual unity itself, and not experience of the two.

Make sense to you?


Tim

Re: intellect - > experience

And I'd like to add…


Yeah… what he said.  *points at Rob*

Re: intellect - > experience

I try to get out and they keep pulling me back in….. ; )

I like to add - yeah what they both said…*points to Rob and Tim*

I agree with both of you.  I actually think there's a semantic or perception thing here.  Heck, I really don't know.

Rob says:

the wave, the material realm, the nonmaterial realm, and that which oscillates between them…all One.

Me says:  Right on.  I'm with you.  I agree whole heartily.  And with the Buddha quote too.

Rob says:
With that in mind, nondual experience is likely had by identifying oneself with nondual reality….not with any segment of what that might entail…..but rather, with the whole shebang. That which everything is contained within(context) and all that is contained within it(content).

Re: intellect - > experience

ahh, good stuff. Makes good sense now.
Thank you.

-Rob

Re: intellect - > experience

Nah, thank you.  Cool Pod.

Re: intellect - > experience

Rod,
Ok, I'm getting what you're after. You want the daily, moment to moment experience of the absolute unity, but you still want to keep a corporeal body and a bank account. Sounds good. I like cake too.

I think then, you are looking for the 'realization' of oneness. This would likely manifest as a calmness of thought and a distinct lack of ego 'addiction' behaviors. Characterized by serenity and a peaceful inner landscape where you identify no only with your self but with every other self around you. Reminds me of what Ken Keyes wrote: Perceive everything anyone does or says as if you yourself had done or said it. (OK, I paraphrased).

Otherwise, to once again borrow from the Western Occult stream, you would be looking to spend your daily wakeful hours “between the worlds” as the Wiccans would call it. I believe this is represented by the Tarot card “the Star”. The figure has one foot on land and the other in the pool, which represents the undifferentiated unconscious.

Yummy stuff.

Re: intellect - > experience

“Yummy stuff.”

Does it taste like chicken?  Chocolate?  Ahhhh, that's right!  You mentioned CAKE!

Re: intellect - > experience

sahajanath-

Bingo!  The cake and the eating of it are, in the non-dualistic sense, the same One thing.  Not being as studied as yourself,  I kinda of refer to it as the Common Man's Enlightenment.  How does a dood like me get to be a DUDE like Jesus, Buddha, Sri Ramana Maharishi,  St. Francis, etc., etc., and I go from there.  And that's where I came up with an Oscillation theme.  It's the same as many other themes, path, modalities.  Just how I language it.

You said:
Reminds me of what Ken Keyes wrote: Perceive everything anyone does or says as if you yourself had done or said it.

Me says:
Yes I love it.  I'm working with exactly that from just a slight, slight  variation.  I use Jesus' Love One Another which I think is exactly  the same thing as Keyes'  paraphrased quote.  Many other sages and high artists have said this over and over again.  I'm trying to really get it.

Peace you wonderful people.  Love the exchange - broadens the context, ya know.

Love One Another

Re: intellect - > experience

Oh yeah I forgot.

MMMMMMMMMMM  DELICIOUS!!!  It tastes like Everything and Nothing!!!!   ; )