Re: Masculine and Feminine Elements of the Tantric Path

hi jay, wh, all…

yes from the perspective of the  western philsophical trajectory the “feminine” has been body, form, earth, communal, immanent - and the “masculine” mind, emptiness, agentic transcendence. Historically I believe because women give birth and were considered more strongly rooted and thus limited to the body and thus, earth. 

So the reference in the Tantra article that you mention WH is indeed an interesting inversion of this.

My personal thoughts are that  while there are energy types which are of these two different characteristics (immanence, transcendence : emptiness, form) the link back to man and woman is fairly arbitrary (particularly at higher levels of development) and naming them with these sexual referents seems in many ways .. past its use by date.

jay - I find it difficult to imagine All as anything but the union of both masculine and feminine. I would love to know more, can you explain furher? 

sass 

Re: Masculine and Feminine Elements of the Tantric Path

Hey sass,

I don't regard All as the union or division of anything.  It's beyond union and division. It's Emptiness, or The One, or “Suchness” - the pure ground from which all being springs, but which is not any being itself. 

Given that,  I don't have a problem seeing the Divine Feminine as quite separate from the traditional masculine/feminine polarity - just as Christians have no problem saying God created man in His image, yet not regarding God as a “man” in any human sense of the word. For me, the Divine Feminine has a distinctive…”flavor” to it that is neither literal-masculine or literal-feminine, neither masculine-energy nor feminine-energy. It's something of the creative power of the female body, but well beyond that - total in its knowledge, immense in its proportions, unfathomable in its depth, endless in its compassion and nurturing. 

Hope that helps. Thanks for the questions; I'm still teasing out much of this for myself.

With Love and Laughter,

-J- 

Re: Masculine and Feminine Elements of the Tantric Path

hi jay

thanks for your answer, its very interesting stuff.

I guess it really becomes semantic at some point because I utterly agree with your description but i just wouldn't name it the Divine feminine. To me its beyond masculine and feminine, it (immanently) includes and transcends both and is just the Divine.

and yes, this is all about questioning and teasing things out and play.. from where I stand too. thanks for playing. 

sass 

Re: Masculine and Feminine Elements of the Tantric Path

Sass,

I'm opening up to that truth. :) It's the truth Campbell incarnated when he referred to all of these religious forms as “the masks of God”. 

Re: Masculine and Feminine Elements of the Tantric Path

absolutely, Jay!

It's funny though, the devil's advocate in me would also argue about the importance of which mask we give to God.. particularly  for me, there is an importance that there is a female mask for God, so that women see the divine mirrored in and as themselves .. a mask which finally dissolves into All, emptiness.

Re: Masculine and Feminine Elements of the Tantric Path

Hi Jay,

I'd love to hear more about your retreat. I've decided to do a Dzogchen training that starts later this month, and the primary practice will be Tara worship. This seems to be “up” for me right now.

I agree with Sass that masculine and feminine (in a male/female context) seems to be outdated. I'm wondering if there are terms we can use that reflect the archetypal qualities of the feminine, while not having the loaded language that we must deal with in the Western tradition.

Peace,

Bill 

Tara

Since we are talking about Tara I thought I would post my summary of one of the stories about her vow, for those who aren't familiar: 

“In Tibetan Buddhist lore there is the story, believed to be many aeons old, of the vow of Princess Yeshe Dawa, whose name means Moon of Wisdom. The full moon in Buddhist symbology represents the full realisation of the ultimate truth of absolute and relative truth..  In the West Yeshe Dawa is more commonly known as the Buddhist goddess Tara.  In this tale the princess, after much consistent and determined spiritual practice “awoke”.  Her state drew the attention of monks who came to advise her that while previous good karma had allowed her to manifest in the form of a woman: “If you pray that your deeds accord with the teachings, then indeed on that account you will change your form to that of a man, as is befitting.” (Templeman)  Her reply, befitting her state of awakened insight, is astute “ In this life there is no such distinction as “male” and “female”, neither of “self identity”, a “person” nor any percetion, and therefore attachment to ideas of “male” and “female” is quite worthless.  The weak minded are always deluded by this.” (ibid).  Another translation suggests Tara’s reply as “Nowhere can I find what is male, nowhere can I find what is female.  These are simply forms no more separate from one another than a wave from water.” (Galland, 50).  In accord with her state of awakened compassion Yeshe Dawa vowed to defer her own release from the karmic round by taking the form of bodhisattva as a woman : “ There are many who wish to gain enlightenment in a man’s form, and there are but few who wish to work for the welfare of all living beings in a female form.  Therefore may I, in a female body, work for the welfare of beings right until Samsara has been emptied.“ (ibid). ”” 

Re: Tara

Hi Sass,

I've seen this in other places, but thanks for posting it here. Do you know which Tara Yeshe Dawa is associate with? Not that it matters, I'm just curious.

Thanks,

Bill 

Tara continued

hi Bill,

good questions :

I'm not sure what the relationship between the story of Tara / Yeshe Dawa's vow and her various manifestations .. as white, blue tara, etc. It would be great it someone could enlighten us!

Also : “I'm wondering if there are terms we can use that reflect the archetypal qualities of the feminine, while not having the loaded language that we must deal with in the Western tradition. ”

Yes that's what I am wondering too. There is a whole field of meaning that “feminine” opens up to and its that difficult balance of finding a way to signal towards that field while wrestling away the negative connotations and the relationship back to cultural designations of man and woman. Tricky.

I think Wilber's use of the terms communal/agentic, Agape/Eros are good, for starters.

Re: Tara continued

I just wanted to come back to Bill's question on what colour manifestion of Tara that story of her vow relates to. While I still don't have an answer to that question I have been reading Tsultrim Allione's excellent book Women of Wisdom, which presents some interesting insight…

Speaking about the dakini in Tibetan Buddhism, she notes that there are five families : Vajra (diamond), Buddha, Ratna (jewel), Padma (lotus) and Karma (action), which represent  “.. fundamental energy patterns which manifest in all phenomenal experience.”

Then, talking specifically about the dakini figure in the mandala of Vajra varahi she writes: “she is a red figure and is surrounded by the four dakinis, the blue Vajra dakini, the yellow Ratna dakini, the red Padma dakini and the green Karma dakini; she herself comes from the Buddha family.”

Allione's description suggests to me that  Tara's different colours are simply manifestions of her various energetic faces  (so to speak) .. different guises of her one (empty) self.