Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hello all you beautiful permapeople.

I hope this is the right place to ask; of all the Groups I'm a part of, it seemed the most potentially fruitful. I'm diving in to ask for your advice and input on… composting.

We're thinking about having a 'composter-off' here at work (Gaiam), to see which composter (of ours or from a broader selection) composts the best. I just got out of a meeting in which we were talking about the different forms of composters, from vermiculture to the tumbling / spinning sort to your garden-variety (no pun intended) bins, and  I felt a little embarrassed to realize that I knew next to nothing about the topic (I've tended to live in houses full of hungry children and large dogs ;). So I thought I'd ask here.

What has your experience been with composting (or vermiculture, which, I confess, is what most intersts me)? Is there a particular composter you'd recommend? Is composting or vermiculture easier? I'd love any stories and suggestions before we go any further. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Will you have large quantities to compost?
If you are using worms where will you keep them? They can freeze to death in winter.Good for small quantities if you can keep them alive through the winter
If you are growing food do you dig and weed,  or no dig and mulch? the former produces more waste to compost, the latter locks more carbon into the soil which helps reduce global warming.
Large quantities maybe three big wooden bays, rotate turn and the worms and crawlies colonise the pile to break down into compost, or a really big one can be used to produce heat for a property or greenhouse.

http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/compostheatedgh.html

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1981-07-01/Compost-Heated-Water.aspx

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Potentially, though I (personally) would want to start small. At this point I'm / we're more in an information gathering stage.

I think if we'd use worms we'd go for the inside variety, just because of how variable the weather is in Colorado. And we are just starting a community garden on the land behind our offices, so we will certainly have a place to put the 'new soil.'

Do you compost yourself? And if so, what do you use?

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Vermicomposting seems really fun and fruitful! I've never owned my own, but I've known those who have and they enjoy it immensly. I'm going to start one this spring. It's really easy to do, and you can definately keep it inside your house. It shouldn't even stink!

You have to get red wiggler worms, and when they multiply, you'll want to give them away, or set them free, or start another compost bin….whatever you do, don't let em loose in your garden!!! since you'll be training them to eat your veg scraps…. Pretty much start with any type of container, more surface area than depth, plenty of air circulation,in a dark place(under a sink) and only slightly damp- usually if you just drill a few small holes in the bottom, top side, and lid of your container, you'll get enough circulation.

Start with damp, shredded paper(shredded office paper a good start!) I know you have to let your worms loose and burrow into the paper and get all comfy in the dark before you feed them, they're divas dahling!! You can throw some coffee grounds in every once in a while for some grit for their gizzards, but not a lot, and not too often, but just to get em grindin.

You start with about a cup or so of veg scraps in one corner and slowly work your way across the bin feeding them. VOILA! you have nutirent rich beautifully recycled material. As beautiful and rich as this soil is, you may not want to use ONLY this soil for planting, it might be a little TOO rich. usually makes for a great topsoil, so when you water, all the goodness seeps into the earth for all the root systems! So, having that alternate compost bin outside with your garden/lawn scraps would accompany your worm castings just peachy! just need to find a nice balance between your brown/dry to your green/wet to generate the heat you need in the pile-o-scrap type.

I hear tumblers do the job pretty quickly as compared to the sit in a pile style, but they can be really burdensome to rotate, so as long as you have help, this can be a great option too! Seems like anything unnecessarily fancy is probably not necessary though.

Just an aside to the vermiculture technique for recycling, and composting….how beautiful that you can grow your food in dirt, use most of it, throw it to the worms, and they can turn your food back into dirt for growing more food…amazing! Look at all that rich soil you just saved from becoming useless landfill waste, beautiful :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi Siona,

Composting is a subject I know nothing at all about.  Everything I've read, the gadgets and gimmicks I've tried, the advice in print by all of the “experts,” all of that leaves me rather breathless.

Here's what I do know:

1) All topsoil is composted organic matter, sand particles and air.  Thirty percent of the volume of topsoil is air.

2) Newly decayed organic matter, “compost,” rejuvenates the topsoil, essentially refreshing it with freshly broken down material.  The decay was caused by fungi, molds, bacteria; microorganisms of all kinds, sow bugs, various insects, earth worms, slugs and snails.  They've digested the organic matter.  That digested material is now readily available for use by growing vegetation.

3) Left to nature, a pile of organic material-leaves, grass, fruits, vegetables, etc., may take 2-3 years to fully compost.  The game is to speed along that process.

4) Earthworms can't begin to do their part until the matter has been broken down to a large degree by bacteria, fungus, molds, etc.

5) The more quickly the microorganisms can break down the organic matter, the more quickly your compost will be “finished.”

6) The finer you can chop your organic matter, the more readily the microorganisms and small insects can begin feeding on it.  For instance, alfalfa meal, a very finely chopped green material, is about the consistency of corn meal.  Dug into the soil, alfalfa meal will very readily completely compost; in warm weather, in a matter of a week or two.  Alfalfa hay, unchopped, may take 6 or 8 months to fully break down into finished “compost,” if it's dug into the soil.  The difference is that the meal is almost entirely broken down surface area.  The hay isn't much damaged, is many times larger, and there aren't nearly as many places for the bacteria, fungi, molds, small insects, etc., to enter it and begin their digestion of the hay.

7) Whenever the composting matter gets a fresh blast of air, the microorganisms go on a feeding, reproducing frenzy.  If the pile is left as a pile, very little air reaches the microorganisms, and the process is much slower.

8) Warmth is vital, in that microbial activity in the soil almost completely ceases at 41 F.  The more microbial activity you can get, the more rapidly your compost will be “finished.”

Gadgets:  I've tried a number of them.  They work more or less as advertised, but I found them to be cumbersome, annoying to use, and a “job” unto themselves.  I soon gave them away, or put them in the recycle bin.

What I do, after working on the problem for over 25 years:  When I take out spent vegetable plants, I chop them as finely as I can with a pair of pruning shears.  Maybe the pieces are 6 inches long, maybe they're a foot long.  I fill a large, rubber-plastic concrete mixing tub–about 2' wide and 3-3.5' long with the chopped up vegetation, walk on it to bruise it and break it up as much as I can, then I put it in a large clear plastic bag.  Clear plastic lets the suns rays radiate and heat deeply below the surface, whereas black plastic only heats the surface.  I seal the bag and let it sit in the sun for a week or so.  I then open the bag over my compost bin and empty the contents.  It stinks.  Within a couple of hours, with air now available to it, the odor is completely gone.

In the bin– a simple plywood box, 2.5' high, 2.5' wide, 6' long (that I built 15-18 years ago from scrap material), I may have added some alfalfa, dried tree leaves, or almost anything.  I try to have a more or less equal amount of carbon-that is, dry leaves, dry alfalfa, straw, etc., mixed with fresh green material, which is mostly nitrogen.

I try to have it full to the top at one end, and empty at the other end.  Every few days I take my digging fork and move the entire pile to the other end of the box.  In doing that, the material that was on top is now on the bottom, and the material that was on the bottom is now on the top.  And the entire pile has gotten a full fresh shot of fresh air, putting the microbes into full activity.

I don't do that very often during the winter months, because with cold temperatures, the microbes aren't active, so it would do no good.

In the warmer months, the entire box will be almost fully composted within 6-8 weeks.  I say “almost,” because it isn't as fine as coffee grounds that you see in the commercials for the gadgets.  If I put the matter in as fine as coffee grounds, it would come out as fine as coffee grounds.  I do not.

When I take the material out of the compost bin, it's black and there are strands of cellulose, small pieces of this and that, that are essentially as broken down as they need to be.  The matter is full of sow bugs, which are wonderful in a compost bin, but hell on your new seedlings.  To kill them, any ants, or other pests that I don't want in my beds, I put the matter in a clear plastic bag, seal it, and sit it in the sun-again-for a few days.  That kills every pest in the bag.  I may use it then, or let it sit for a month or more until I'm ready to use it.

I have huge amounts of vegetation coming and going through my bin over a year's time, from which I usually get 15-20 cubic feet of finished compost.

And that's all I know about composting.  After reading several books, dozens of articles, a couple hundred hours of research, talking to lots of experts, and trying most of the new fangled gadgets, that's still all that I know for sure.

Let me know anything else I might help you with as you begin the area.

Best Regards,
Lee

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Sonia - thanks for starting this enhancing topic and thanks everyone for the valuable input.

In preparing the soil for the worms,  planting legumes of any variety–mixed variety of peas, beans, clover.  

Just before the legumes blossom you cut them up and use a fork type rake to mix the plants back into the soil.  This helps feed the soil to make it rich and makes nitrogen.  This is called “green manure”.  The picture shows the roots of the legumes where the roots little white nodules are where the nitrogen comes from.  This is one thing the worms and microorganisms feed off of and the worms will produce up to 50% of their body weight per day in the best fertilizer a garden can get.

It is exciting to hear how yours progresses.  If you can add a picture of that piece of land at Gaiam offices, that would be fun to see.

Have fun digging into earth.  It's such great exercise too.
Kathy

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~KES: Oh, I'll post pictures soon! We had a “ground breaking” ceremony earlier this week to mark the beginning of the garden (it was so much fun; we all came outside and stood in this amazing circle around the place where the garden will be and shared our thoughts about what it meant to work on growing something together…), and I know a few people took photos. Thank you! 

I'm a little confused (forgive me) about what you mean by preparing the soil for worms. This is the garden soil, yes, not the compost itself?

PS. Below is the plan for the garden. Isn't it beautiful??

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Siona, that IS such a beautiful garden plan! How ambitious and simple. The beauty of some vacant lot becoming an oasis. Have fun there in your community garden!! Can't wait to see the pictures. What a wealth of community knowledge coming together here<3

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MandalaTree: I know… and it nearly matches our little Gaia mandala / seed. :) Again, I'll post more illustrations soon. (Probably in another thread, though. I think I keep getting us off topic…)

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Looks beautiful Siona, is water a tap an ornanental pond or a wildlife pond? Frogs and newts are good predators as a slug patrol !

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Zephyr: I'm not sure what form the spigot will take; I have a feeling it'll be practical, though. :) Also, I was laughing the other day with a few others here about the possibility of rabbits and other garden nibblers. We've spotted a mountain lion a few times around our property here, and so hopefully she'll keep the place free from bunnies!

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Lee.

I'm stunned. As Burl wrote–here you go saying you know nothing on the topic, and then you lay out a step-by-step, expert-level description covering pretty much everything I could hope to wonder about. Thank you. Hugely.

Your tips on chopping interested me the most (and tips on getting rid of the sowbugs in a way that doesn't use pesticides). So grinding up the matter before putting it in the bin would lead to faster composting? That makes sense to me. Did you find any “gadgets” (here too I'd love to pick your brains, but perhaps I'll PM you instead abuot it) that helped do that, or would you recommend just chopping things yourself?

Also, does anyone know whether vermiculture a fine-chopped compost “works” faster?  

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Lee, this is some very valuable information! Thank you :)

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It truly is an amazing process. I”m in my third year and having a blast.  Take care. Burl

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MandalaTree: Thank you! This is a wonderful set of instructions. And I'm tremendously tempted to ask whether you might want to participate in this compost-experiment; we could both start around the same time and compare notes as we go.

I didn't know, either, that they could be kept inside so easily. That's good to know.

I remember having ant farms as a child, too; a worm farm would be so much more useful. :)

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That is a GREAT idea! I've been itching to start a compost experiment in my kitchen. :) yeah.

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Yes I do Siona, like Lee I have 3 big bins and rotate them, layering chicken waste straw with green then kitchen waste and turning in summer, take care when you turn the heap slow worms love to nest in it.  He is right, don't spend too much in equipment. Like Kes I rotate legumes to add nitrogen. Also if you have room for some non invasive comfrey you can make your own fertiliser by soaking leaves in a bucket of water for 2 or 3 weeks, cheapest way to make the best fertiliser and studies show it is more effective than those we buy. Nettles soaked like this work as a fertiliser too and a patch of nettles will attract beneficial insects..

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Zephyr: Yours sounds like a pretty major outdoor endeavor too, yes? Have you ever tried any smaller, under-the-sink or on-the-countertop sorts? I'm sure we could try something large at the office, but for my own personal use… well, I think I need to get my toes wet first.

Also, your fertilizer instructions–that would be for a garden, not a starter for the compost?

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

This was great Lee.  I personally have a pile right outside my back door and it's backed up to the house with the other boundary being the oil tank.  I topped the pile off this past winter with a lot of sticks.  (Of course I continued to add to it through the winter).  Anyway, the underneath section apparently became pretty warm (in fact a hibernating snake made her home there).  I may have gotten more warmth the the bottom of the pile because we had a lot of snow last winter (I'm in Maine) which increased the warmth of the pile due to the extra piling effect.  I wound up digging into the bottom of the pile when I began working my gardens and found some really sweet smelling dirt.  (Well with some egg shells for attraction).  I also “accidently” composted my weeds from last year.  The bottom again warmed up (partially as a result of the snow) and composted the soil well.  Take care.  Burl

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Lee:  I just reread the top of your post.  You know nothing about composting and then write a book on it! You put a lot of good stuff in there. Take care.  Burl

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Vermiculture is a powerful way of doing it.  My wife and I had some happy worms composting some of our stuff in the kitchen.  They were doing quite well until my wife drowned the poor fellahs.  I do want to get back into it.  Not knowing for sure about the potential move to an ecovillage, not sure I'll do it this year.  We have a guy nearby that's really into worms.  I'll ask Merry for his name.  He owns a buisness so maybe you can contact him?  Take care.  Burl

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

bensoph: You'll have to join MandalaTree and I in our worm-farming this spring then. Maybe you could try a smaller, countertop variety with me, at least until you find out about the move?

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There are many theories on composting which work differently depending on your needs.  Where do you live?  Are you near a Wetland?  Are you composting food scraps?  Feces?  Are you going to eat stuff that gets nutrients from your compost?  Do you want to turn your compost or leave it passive?  

Rather than getting to these specifics (many books like the humanure handbook or worms eat my garbage do this)  I will share my own experience.

I currently live in a wet urban/suburban area with a small patch of trees behind my house.  While a garden would be nice I have been using them for food scrap waste disposal.  I would like to move to the humanure system at some point but there are some other social/legal arrangements that I would have to decide on first.
I also leave my compost passive - that is I don't stir it but am intential about what I add in there so that it can ventalate and break down: ie 50 solid pounds of dumpstered bananas will not break down and will have a strong odor. So when I have to dispose something (like 50 pound of bananas) I put layers of leaves(or hay, grass, or any high carbon source) among the bananas to help them ventilate/break down.  The smell associated with rot is created by high nirogren making ammonia so leaves not only take the odor away but also help it decompose quickly.

Don't believe me?  Go in the forest with some sawdust, deficate, cover your feces with sawdust, get really close, and give it a smell.  I am serious.

The eco composting bins I have seen may work to some extent but are flawed in that they are out of touch with the real world.  They follow the western model of encapsulating the odor rather than actually breaking it down.  

Also for the ones that are plastic they eventually get brittle and break.  The pieces will stay in the ground or ocean for 1000 years according to popular scientists but i suspect that it actually lasts forever - as tiny plankton sized pieces of plastic for fish and birds to eat.  By the way, large fish are down 90%.  Plastic is insane.  No, I am really serious about that.

Another important question to ask is your goal in composting.  Mine is to lessen global dependency, to learn to live outside of the global economy and electricity.  For this reason I also think its insane to buy a composting bin.

Any social lifestyle that is based on an importation of resource is going to collapse.  That is to say any lifestyle that can't be supported by its own local landbase will collapse.

The reverse of this seems to hold true as well, any society that produces wastes in an abundance such that they do not breakdown, ie non biodegradables or biodegradables in such abundance that they can not be reconstituted by the landbase will collape.  

That said I am glad that some folks are exploring the possibilities outside of landfills, dumping, and incineration.  A recent U of Tuscon estimated 40-50% of food in the US meets this end.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Zaac: Oh, wonderful questions, and thank you–the personal stories were just what I was looking for. And your points on the bizarreness of buying plastic to contain compost are great. (Granted, I'd far, far rather see urban families putting their foodwaste in a composter than just chucking it out–it makes no sense to let 'perfect' get in the way of 'good.' I think there are degrees of insanity. :)

My personal goal is to be less wasteful; I don't generally produce that much food waste (just peels and vegetable ends and the like; I'm a good clean-plate-clubber), so I don't think I need much more than an indoor bin.

As an aside, Boulder, the city where I lived, just introduced a major composting program. It's encouraging to see.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

I've done worms. It's fun, but they are pets, so they require attention and time.

I've done the pile, the tumbler, and the square plastic stationary composter, and I prefer them in that exact order. The tumbler has several advantages if one is space-challenged like me, or limited by physical strength or time. The pile is more effective and more flexible. The square one (the one called “garden composter” on your site) I found totally useless.

Note that a tumbler is a “batch composter.” You fill it all at once and then let it cook. You can add a little mid-batch, but I end up tossing pounds of kitchen scraps in my city yard waste bin because I can't really do much with them in the interim. You would need three or so going at all  times for them to be really productive and solve your garbage problem. The spinning one sold at the site above is not as easy to use as the ones on a stand/legs that you just tip to spin. I have no experience with the “continuous use” model - it looks like the best of both worlds, but at that price it would have to take out its own garbage.

If you have space, fresh air, and a pitchfork…do piles. It's really the best and easiest way to get the maximum volume of compost. You don't even need to build boxes. In the winter you can leave them alone without hassle - cover with plastic if you like - by spring planting time, you're ready.

Worm bins are easy to make, although I know one pro gardener/landscaper who swears by her prefab worm castle. You can find her advice on DIY bins here

http://thegerminatrix.com/?p=110

I have some minor quibbles with her tips (for example you need ordinary garden soil, not potting soil, which is usually sterile) but in general it's a good start.

It's most important to know what not to feed them and to keep the conditions as they like them to be. Again, they are pets, fellow earthlings, and if you're not prepared for the responsibility of treating them as pets, or just think it will be fun and cool to have worms, then you should not engage in this. One shouldn't get even a goldfish without some idea of how to take care of it, and vermiculture is an entire colony of living things. If this is a concern, get the indoor composter instead (a friend living in a teeny apartment in Greece raves about it) and go to town.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Evolutus: Thank you!

It's a treat to hear your experience with all three. Really the 'pile' route is your favorite? There's a certain muck-in-the-dirt side of me that completely understands this, and a certain gut-level intuition that nods assent (of course it makes the most sense to be guided as much as possible by the ecology of the outdoors!), but the part of me that gets nervous about my pitchfork skills is hoping for something more (sigh) contained. Maybe I'll have to try a continuous use one to round out your analysis. In any case, it's reassuring to hear that it's possible to compost well even in a small space with a mini-bin. (Though gosh… a tiny apartment in Greece? Sign me up. :) Thank you.

Also, thank you so, so much for those words and reminders about worms, and the responsibility involved in caring for them. I promise I won't enter into vermiform lightly. The link you shared was a treat, too; I love the story in the comments about how she takes people out to visit her wormies. I think it wouldn't take much to get me doing the same. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

FWIW: I have been using a compost “bin” for the past several years. It is basically a big sheet of some type of heavy vinyl(?) that is turned into a cylinder and has a top that you place on it. I just put whatever garden and kitchen waste I have into it as I accumulate it. I rinse the compost bucket out as I empty it and dump that water into the bin. Each time I empty the bucket (once a week) I will usually stick the pitchfork in the bin and stir things around some.

I live in Lakewood, CO (not too far from you Siona) and I can tell you that the bin is LOADED with worms now. The compost is looking pretty good and smelling quite pleasant.

For me the KISS principle works the best. I figure that at least all these scraps aren't ending up in landfill. However long it takes to turn into useable compost is unimportant to me.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

VeganTriathlete: That sounds tremendously convenient, and how great to have a “thumbs up” about an outdoor version in our climate. Do you use a particular sort of bucket?

Maybe we should take a field trip to come visit yours. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

My wife bought a small plastic bucket with a snap on lid to keep under the kitchen sink. You could just as easily use an empty bucket that kitty litter came in. It's just nice to have the snap-on lid.

You are all welcome to come on out and see the compost bin. But, it would probably be better if I just posted a picture of it.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Okay. After thinking about this a bit more, I should probably divide this question into two–the first having to do with our larger Gaiam garden and any composting / mulching we do there, and the second to do with me, personally, and my own curiousness about starting a smaller, counter-top project. I'll go try a post in the new Green on Gaia Group for the latter, and we can keep this thread for the bigger project (and worms!).

Here's a picture from the Gaiam Garden Ground Breaking a few days ago (I'm the one trying to disguise myself as a shovel). I'll put this in the Team blog, too, but I wanted to share here… :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Great pic, Siona!  SO GREAT that you guys are planting a garden there!  Will any of it be edible?

I too have composted different ways and for different reasons.  All the experiences have been good, and each and taught me more, so I think the most important thing is just to get to it!  I don't think there is a “best” way - though I tend to think the more chopping and patience, and the least plastic the better. 

If you have the space, and enough raw material, I think it would be interesting to see simple heaps go head-to-head with the gaiam spinner or continuous use composter (lol on its taking out its own garbage!).  The products are a good way to advertise the company of course, and though I am not a fan of plastics, they do sometimes work better in more urbanized spaces where you might have neighbors complaining about the messy “look” of open containers or heaps.

I'll post some more tips on counter-top composting on the Green on Gaia group, but I'd also like to mention here that some of the best compost I've ever gotten came one year I was lazy about keeping my gutters clear - the leaves and needles and sand runoff from a shingle roof combined with continuous rainfall to make some of the richest, blackest compost I have ever seen.  A great reminder that it's just a natural process that occurs everywhere.  Compost happens.

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Thanks for showing the picture Siona–CUTE!!!… there is enough land to feed a lot of you in Boulder… :-)  What fun.   Tsuya… cool group too.  It will be a great game to contribute to both green groups.  Congratulations on documenting the ground breaking day.  The piece of land there is lush.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Tsuya: ALL of it will be edible! I don't think we'll have anything that doesn't contribute. I'm so excited.

And yes! I would LOVE to do a test with the pile vs. the tumbler vs. the spinner. That is a brilliant idea. Nice. We could even track it here. I'm going to be on the side of Team Worm. Go wormies.

KES: Oh, thank you. I think we're so, so fortunate. Our building abuts acres of Open Space and yes, the earth surrounding us is rich indeed. I'm so proud that we'll be using it like this… and it'll be fun to document the project, too. (That, and getting to go dig in the dirt during lunch.)

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This is a dream come true for me to see Siona.  Your picture is worth a thousand words and documenting your routine and process is perfect for show & tell to the members here that also will be following your lead.

There was a couple of skipped generations of gardeners, also called stewards of the land.  I share this with you and want to thank all of you for encouraging your generation to show how truly exciting gardening as a team can be rewarding in many many ways.

The old time farmers considered themselves stewards of the land knowing that the soil’s been here long before the farmer,  and it’s going to be here long
after we’re gone. 

As the soil passes from generation to generation, it’s all of our duties  to preserve it for the next generation.

So I think it’s important to keep all of these modern miracle chemicals completely away from our soil.  We don’t want to damage it.  We want to keep improving it.

It’s been said that there was four feet of  top soil when Europeans first came to this continent.  And because of our mis-use and greed of trying to get everything out of the ground that we could, because of our poor farming habits in the past, erosion, destruction by chemicals and pesticides, it’s believed today that our average top soil in this country is one foot.  So we’ve already wasted three-quarter’s of our top soil.

I think its the duty of all of us to try to build back what we’ve destroyed.

May you have abundance always,

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Again, Lee, thank you so, so much. It's a bit of a dream come true for me, too. (I'll have to make sure to keep taking pictures of our progress.) For me, it means even more than the re-contribution to the Earth, and the rich pleasure in growing food for us to eat ; beyond that there's this beautiful communal effort in joining together with the people I work with every day on these abstract projects (like keeping the web site running) to do something that will literally grow. The Earth is so healing, and so generous, and so supporting; I love the idea of this garden bringing us more closely together. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi Siona, my garden the same all edible fruit, herbs and veg, have you considered seed sources?  Here is a link you might find interesting,
http://www.earthportals.com/free.html 
Over here I buy my seeds from the real seed company or the organic association,
both grow and research as well as sell and the variety is wonderful,and cultural instruction excellent, all heritage seeds so that I can save seeds from year to year, it helps reduce cost and preserves bio diversity, as the climate changes the importance of these old varieties for different climates will be so useful. The organic association here keeps a seedbank, and we can adopt a rare seed to help keep them for future generations, when you save seed from year to year, it adapts to climate and soil.
Remember your garden environment is unique what works for others may not for you, so cultivate a feel for it, kjnda be observant and in the moment, then you will tune into it and know what it requires, some plants like shade others full sun,
if you place them right they will be happy. Fukuoka said that the land thrives or otherwise depending on the state of mind of the farmer, and there is a lot of truth in that.  Have fun there too, one of our best bonfire nights was on our large allotment years ago, we were all singing and dancing around the bonfire  till well after midnight - when you have a barbeque the food is fresh and on hand.!!!!!

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

My garden is growing food in the front yard and back.  This is a picture of my compost bin.  It is a simple one as well to operate.  Lee

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

I just read all these posts. You guys are great.  If I had a camera, I'd take a picture of my “conscious” compost and one of my “unconscious” compost.  My “unconscious” compost was where I tossed weeds last year…the dirt underneath was sweet.  My conscious compost is framed by a large wooden “fencing” that I think is meant for climbing plants.  Anyhow, I bent it around so that it boxed in the area between the back steps and the oil tank.  It must have heated well.  A gartner snake hybernated in it last year.  Take care.  Burl

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

I agree, bensoph. This thread has become rich and mulchy in itself. I love the illustrations and photos, too; you are each so, so inspiring. I'm a little humbled by and shy about my own just-beginning status–but I'll catch up, I'm sure. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Lee, I love the picture of your compost bin!  It's so much easier to see how it works with a picture!  It looks like your bin may be divided down the centre?  Does that help with the turning, to kind of keep it contained?  I see that it has block feet, which is great for aeration - is that a mesh screen that's on top?

I have learned so much from this thread, and there's much food for thought here - ah, the mulch of contemplation!

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Thank you, Tsuya!
No, the bin isn't divided, but those are screens on top to keep critters out.  It's easy to turn the pile over.  If it were divided, I'd have to lift the compost high to get it to the other side.  We put new energy efficient windows in the house a few years ago.  We didn't need the old window screens, and the 2 old screens you see on top of the bin just happened to be a perfect fit for the top of the bin.
“Contemplation mulch?”  I like that!!
Good luck, Tsuya!
~Lee

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi Siona,

There's hardly more to add about composting from all the wonderful posts so far!

I'd say the next step for your personal composting plans, is to just get started.  You'll find that although composting is simple to explain, every particular situation has its challenges, unless you have lots of time and energy to devote to your pile.

For example, urban composters tend to have more food scraps (nitrogen) than brown (carbon) matter.  In addition, if you live in a northern climate, you will have the food scraps from the 4 frozen months, all thaw at the same time!  That's a lot of green with very little brown to mix in.

This is where the finesse of composting comes in.  You have to be wiley to find brown matter.  I had the idea to go to my grocery store where they have a big trash can set up for everyone who shucks their corn before buying it.  I could add all the corn husks.

I could go to a local farmer and see if they have any old straw (NOT HAY) that I could add to the pile.

Plus, here in Madison, people pile their branches by the side of the road for the city garbage people.  I could ask people if I could take their branches.

(Sidenote:  I have an idea to do a video where I drive around town discovering the brown matter I could add to my pile to keep it from smelling in the springtime.)

Anyway, this is just one of the scenarios that could happen.  Give it a try and when you run up against a snag, post it here again and I'm sure people will love to help you.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

For example, urban composters tend to have more food scraps (nitrogen) than brown (carbon) matter.  In addition, if you live in a northern climate, you will have the food scraps from the 4 frozen months, all thaw at the same time!  That's a lot of green with very little brown to mix in.

See, I never would have thought about this! And I love your ideas. The branch-collection is brilliant (and I doubt you'd even have to ask; I'm sure people wouldn't mind having their collection costs reduced).

And you should definitely do the video. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Rick (who seems another expert on the topic) wrote to me with even more luscious information, which I thought I should share here. His letter follows. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Don't you just hate it when Gaia dumps a big post?  : )

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

I have a compost pile and a worm bin, but the bin is by far my favorite. It's year round (I live in MI) and versatile since I can put plants as well as kitchen scraps in there.

If you're the type of person who likes to see it in print, I would recommend Mary Appelhof's “Worms Eat My Garbage” - a very easy to follow yet thorough book with lots of neat little details about what's going on in your new “worm house” - including worm reproduction revealed!  ; )

The biggest problem I think people run into is drowning the poor things, but really, it shouldn't be too big of a danger. The water is added to the bedding before the worms are put in. The water to bedding ratio is 3:1 (3 lbs of water for every dry pound of bedding) If you're wondering how you're going to measure a pound of water, remember that one pint = one pound of water and one gallon = 8 lbs. I put mine in a big 30gal trash bag, mix the water and bedding together slowly, so it all gets moist, and then leave it for a few hours or overnight so that any remaining water can be soaked up into the bedding (we use shredded newspapers) Presto! Perfect worm bedding!

With my first big bin, I found I had to re moisten the top layer of bedding because I had too many air holes drilled. It was no problem though - I just grabbed the water bottle I use to wet the kids' hair in the morning and gave any dry parts a few good sprays.

I'm always happy to talk worms so if you ever need some wormy support, feel free to call on me : )

Blessings,
Tanya

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Mercale: Worms Eat My Garbage? I'll put it on the list. Thank you!

And yes, it sounds like bensoph's sweetie ended up being an inadvertent worm-slayer. (How do worms breathe, anyway? Do they have little wormie lungs or do they breathe through their skin? I have so much to learn…) And can they drown in too-moist soil or would I not need to worry unless water started to pool?

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Not sure how worms breathe.  Maybe their entire bodies inhale and exhale.  Earth does that.  One person told me that so do houses.  Everything breathes…in and out.  Anyway, my wife drenched the poor fellahs by accident.   Take care.  Burl 

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

if houses breathe, then mine has asthma, because all i hear is creeking and i feel drafts when i go to bed XD

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Yes, you were at right Siona, worms breathe through skin, that's why it must to be wet, some of them even have something what looks like lung, but so much different from vertebrate.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

So, I just acquired a wooden produce box, used for shipping vegetables, layered my wet newspaper and worms collected from a compost pile along with some red worms collected in some very clay soil near my apartment. This will be my first attempt at worm farm style composting. So, do I run the risk that my worms will dry out too much? I think I'm more afraid to drown them than anything. I mostly hear those stories too…even from the lady who gave me my worms to start. That's amazing that 7 worms started a  very successful composting business! I wasn't quite sure how many should get me started.  I went dumpster-diving online, through a site called freecycle! http://www.freecycle.org/ and found some worms!

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

And I just realized the huge open container at the side of my house is in fact a compost box! (So embarrassing; I'd never looked at it that closely.) So in addition to our Gaiam project, I'll be starting my own tomorrow.

I'm tempted to try grubs, too. I've heard they compost even better than worms. :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

hey Siona, couldnt you put the worms and grubs together? or would the grubs eat the worms? I dont know a thing about bugs..just thinking of ways to improve your composting.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Why such a need to control things? I have three big compost heaps and I am continually surprised what creatures I find in there. I throw stuff on in layers,chicken straw bedding, a bucket of kitchen waste, a pile of weeds, some used compost etc till it is piled higher than the box, and then I leave it to nature and move on to the next pile, it is open to the ground and the rain and is invaded by all sorts of creatures: full of worms, centipedes, millipedes, wood lice, slugs, and slow worms nesting etc. I am patient and just let these creatures do their thing, it heats up, rots and settles down to make rich sweet smelling compost. I used to turn the heap, but now I don't,  I might disturb a nest of slow worms and they are my front line defence against slugs and snails which they feed on voraciously. If the very top layer isn't quite rotted down then I use it to start the next heap, it's full of all the right bacteria and creatures that will multiply in the next heap, I think nature does it best of all.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

This so interesting topic! Could I make some additional suggestion?
That kind of compost is full of macro and micro nutrients and its extract could serve as basis for making of natural pesticides too, by adding of chopped marigold flowers, garlic, nasturium, potato and tomato leaves, camomile flowers etc. Spray, prepared in this way is specially good for leafed vegetables.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Thanks, Willowspirit.  I'll also send this along to some of my friends.  Take care. Burl

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

yum! I'd like to know more about this herbal pesticide!

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Oh my goodness people. Help.

My compost has become seriously dangerous. My fiance tossed in half a container of frozen durian earlier this week. Durian at its freshest is not exactly the most pleasing fragrance on the planet; semi-rotted and fermenting? Oh my goodness.

Does anyone have ideas about how to neutralize this baby? Sawdust? It's on top of a huge pile of grass clippings, which I was hoping would provide enough brown matter. Apparently not, though. Ai.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi Siona,

This is so Funny!!  What a crazy predicament!

My tip:  chop them up into little bits so that they compost faster and then bury those babies deep in your pile.  If the grass is new and green, it is probably not what you want.  Straw, leaves, or other brown matter might help it compost faster.  But really, you want the compost magic to happen deep in your pile so that you don't have to participate in the smells.

I have heard of people sprinkling lime on their piles to balance pH, etc.  I know that lime neutralizes odors.  I've never done this and I personally would be hesitant to try it.  Anyone have any experience with this?

Julia

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Oh, good idea, Julia. The grass is pretty nicely chopped as is (it's just lawn clippings) but perhaps we could mulch it further. Or stir a lot?

And the lime… that's something I hadn't thought about. What's funny is that we actually have a nice box of it at home that we'd been using for another project, so it'd be easy to sprinkle some and see what happens. I'd be worried it might cause other problems, though. Does anyone else know anything about lime as a neutralizer?

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi Siona,

Oops, I wasn't very clear in my post.  I meant chop the fruit into little bits so that it decomposes easier.  The grass is in small enough bits–I only suggested getting dried leaves or straw to give the fruit some dry, brown matter.  Too much wet stuff (fruit and green grass) will smell even more, get all gooky and rot instead of compost.

Layers are a good idea like Zephyr suggested, but if you don't have enough to layer on top of the fruit to keep the smell down, push the fruit inside of the pile.  Getting the fruit covered so that it will decompose inside the pile instead of on top of it will be less smelly.

Just ideas for you to try!

Julia

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

I meant chop the fruit into little bits so that it decomposes easier.

Gotcha. Well, there's no way I'm touching that goopy mass now, even if it were choppable… but next time I'll make sure. Thank you!

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

oh DEAR…that durian. I tried that fruit in Indonesia, tastey, strange and and it is a stinky one :)

Baking soda….

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Siona, a big pile of grass will just get very yucky and wet, the secret it to chop smallish and apply layers to the heap, dry and wet, not too much of one anything, eg straw or paper, kitchen waste, used compost, weeds etc and repeat so as the wet things rot they moisten the dry things Now I am curious wondering what durian is? Once it is well mixed a layer of soil over it should contain any smells, then carry on with your pile and the worms will blend it all together into black gold for your garden.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Zephyr: Layers? Oops. I'll work on that.

Compost cake. :)

(And durian… you can read about them here. My fiance loves the things but I'm not a huge fan. I will say, though, they're likely unlike anything else you'll ever taste.)

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Thank you for satisfying my curiosity Siona, good luck with mixing the cake

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hope you get the odorificies under control Siona;) I too have a bit of snag, with my indoor worm compost. I have a really horrible fruit fly problem!! Ack! When I open the lid to check on my worm farm, I unleash an angry swarm of little annoying gnat/fruit fly thingies. Also, most unpleasant. I notice them coming out on their own, now I dread opening the lid. They are going to keep coming because I leave my windows open for circulation and cool. I might be able to handle the occasional few..for the most part, I don't mind sharing my space with a couple of spiders, but when  get *they* get out of control, I just trap them in a pringles can until I can gather enough to let them free OUTSIDE; but these little buzzies are burning my patience, and multiplying. First of all they suck, and second, I don't want my worms getting sick from these things. I tried placing a kind of trap: put a piece of sweet fruit on the inside of a water bottle, covered in foil, poke tiny holes for them to get in. I caught a decent amount, but I'm afraid I might be making matters worse by *attracting* them still. Friends, I ask for any insight you have, to offer concerning the condition of my worm bin. Could this spread diseases to the worms? Will I even be able to get rid of them safely without distroying the worm life? ayyeya 

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

hm…fruit flies. i had a little baby anole who would take care of fruit flies. could you put a ton of those sticky fly traps in there? im not sure venus fly traps would survive without the sun..and they are more expensive anyway. could you place fruit outside and away from the area? maybe they would go to that instead.

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

I'm curious, is there anything out there on how fruit flies do affect worms?  Might want to “goggle” that.  Otherwise, I'd like to know how to handle fruitflies myself.  I don't have a worm bin in my house, but do consider it.  When I start seeing fruitflies coming out of the compost bin in the kitchen, then they all go out to the compost bin outside.  That works, but it wouldn't be good for your worms.  Sorry, I wish I could be of more help. 

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi Everyone,

As far as I know, fruit flies don't bother worms.  I've seen both coexisting quite nicely.

I had a terrible fruitfly problem in my worm bin.  I never came up with a great solution except:
1.  Do the fruit fly trap thing (I show instructions on this page:  Fruit Fly Trap You don't create fruit flies unless you forget to empty the trap and allow them to breed on the fruit (I have done this!).  So keep emtpying it every day and you'll be reducing your fruit fly population.
2. Bury your food scraps deeply in your pile.  The food should be completely covered–6-8” at least.  In a worm bin, this can be hard to do if you have lot of food scraps like I did.  I tried many different worm bin set-ups and I love them.  I always had great luck growing the worms, but it was the fruit flies that finally nixed my worm bins.  I couldn't ever get worm bins big enough to accommodate my food without those crazy flies.

I don't have much more information than this.  I love worm bins but I have never had them without the fly hassle.

Sometime I should tell you my terrible worm-bin-catastrophe story–it's a doozy!  :)

Julia

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Thanks! Valuable information Julia. :) I shall keep on top of emptying my fly trap. In an act of desperation, I duct taped the inside cover sticky side out to try to catch them, but those little gremlins can apparently walk on the sticky side of duct tape without being caught! Next I shall move on to the sticky fly tape and see if I have better luck with that. Right now I do have a pretty shallow box.. and I do cover the top of the scraps with peat moss… but I see now its just not deeply covered. I will take greater care, and am glad to know that these dudes wont pass any diseases to the worms. Thanks guys! <3 I am interested in the catastrophe you experienced with your bin Julia. More info I can collect, the better I can serve my worms and my Earth :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi!
Yes Julia, you are absolute at right, that was good and useful advice. Fruitflies are helpful for many enzymatic processes, they are spreading mycelia of yeasts and some other fungi, which enable decomposition of organic substance. The odor isn't pleasant always, but there is always possibility to put mprepare place for composting far away from home. Preparing of compost isnt necesarry conected to worms and their activity (it is one kind of compost), predominantly it is product of microbiligical activity, as so, fruitflies are welcome! If compost place is isolated, it is also good to put some surfactant soil layer, between layers of other raw and waste materials (reed, raffle from kitchen, leaves, grass, moss, etc.). Every natural product could be composted, it is only question of time, even, if you don't have worms. Oh, and if anyone want to produce good  vine or any other kind of alchohol, he or she must to have good deal with fruitflies!
Cheer!

Vesna

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Wonderfuls!

Remember the post that started this thread, on the topic of the “Compost Off”? We've put up a page for voting. I'm rooting for the worms, but the Orb looks fun… :)

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Siona, wondering how your new garden area is doing?

Re: Wormies, Tumblers, and Bins, Oh my!

Hi Zephyr:

Gaia Networking is featuring Organic Gardening
We would cherish your input.

The feature was referenced here by Meenakshi so I wanted to answer your question in case it was not yet addressed.


own organic garden
on Gaiam is the article & links with photos and it turned out great!!!




Thanks for asking.
Kathy