Spirituality for Profit?

I read mikeS’s post titled, “Let the Teacher Bow to YOU!” with
interest. I picked up another theme within it and decided to open a new post as
I realized I was moving it in another direction but not entirely.

The line I am spinning off is, “Credibility is essential. If your modern guru-teacher has not yet written a book, how can he/she be credible? Ha!”

I certainly cannot speak for any other spiritual path / religion / culture other than my own but this is on the subject of spirituality for profit. Within the Native (although I don’t use this term) communities it is a hot and sensitive issue among us privately and openly. We use the term plastic medicine men / women and in this age of the New Age, the flock is exploding.

I sit with it all on a sensitive level for the most part. Where other days I don’t care and this can be from the good “I don’t care” space or the not so good “I don’t care” space. I think it simply depends on where it is coming from and which way the wind is blowing my hair.

I have experienced feelings of outrage tipping on cultural exploitation to “if it is doing good, than okay”. I think most of all, I find myself in this weird and grossed out phase how it has become “cool” to be an Indian. Funny how it wasn’t always like this. It is a weird feeling to watch this, to be honest.

I wonder as well “why” this happens. Why do people feel the need to take on such identities? Why are people selling these “how to be ________” books? Why do people believe this? I also wonder how this is viewed in other cultures.

Am I missing the big picture because I am too close to the subject here?

Coming back to mikeS’s thought, spirituality or “how to be an Indian” for that matter, is not in a book and from what I have been taught, it is not for sale either. 

But what the heck do I know?

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

hi Denim
thanks for the post.
i live in a community where there is a couple of quite regular sweat lodges. a couple are a kind of newage/goddess/love and light/shaman wannabe - sort of thing… one i know of is built by a metis man according to his heritage and teachings.  the one that i am most closely associated with is built by a white guy who grew up (and was adopted by) a Cree family in saskatchewan… he kept fire for his Cree mentor for years, learned a lot of songs  - and he runs lodges according to the way he was taught…
mostly white guys go to this particular lodge.  many of them that i know also go out to southern Manitoba and are sundancers at a lakota dance… some of them for many years… they are a committed group of intelligent people who find that this form of prayer and thanksgiving works profoundly well for them.   they arrive early to set up the grounds and do the appropriate preparations and stay after to dismantle the grounds.    i went out there myself last summer as a supporter for the dancers and saw the depth of their commitment.  ( i have grown tobacco for them too for prayers and offerings - but do not consider the native traditions to be “my path”)
why do they do it - when they were not born in that particular cultural heritage??  because it  fills and sustains them.  it is something that make sense to them - so much so that the sundance ceremony becomes the center point of their entire year.  this level of participation is not to be dismissed as newage indian wannabe fluff.  they don't want to be indians.  they are just who they are… and they are respectful and grateful for the opportunity to dance - because they know full well that the issue of allowing white guys (and even native people from other traditions) to participate is a very sensitive and sometimes volatile issue.
regardless - for these men, this tradition is what resonates with them - deeply… and there is nothing like it available in the barren “spiritual landscape” of their own heritage. 
then of course - also - there are lots of white people  (and other folks from other parts of the world)  that romanticize the “red road” as part of a kind of pagan, earth based, homogenious back to the tribe mentality - mixing and making feel good ceremonies - often with a good dose of pot added… 
finding a way through these things to escape the harsh aspects of living in this particular culture… picking out only the aspects that make them feel good… a kind of self-medicating escapism… 
and inbetween - in the fog between “head” and “heart” - where people search for SOMETHING that makes some sense…  turning to idealized native teachings, or idealized yoga or buddhist or sufi teachings…. plucking out something - often out of it's original context  - and trying it on - seeing if “it” will help navigate through the human experience…  buying the books, seeking out teachers, going to ceremonies, or tarot card readers …. something other than “therapeutic shopping” … something other than the barren landscape of how things appear in this culture at this time.
it is part of the process i believe - of discovering what “you” are.  and what “you” are not.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Hi Guys!

Sometime back, in the God Pod, I posted a comment that generated a rather heated discussion (arpita might recall). I also posted this on an external bog and that also brought many comments with it. So I post it one last time since it kinda relates to this subject:


The question I often have with all these outlandishly expensive
“awakening” programs is: if I don’t get “awakened,” can I get my money
back!?

Like here and here. Or, better yet, how about this one here.

Does “awakening” come with a warranty? My refrigerator did.

Make no mistake, based on the world's terms, once you pay money, you have
engaged in a business transaction. If I pay hundreds of dollars to receive this “product” shouldn’t I at least get a one year warranty? (let’s not deny that the ‘experience’ is the product) So, if for some reason my “awakening” becomes
non-operational, shouldn’t I receive a refund or get a duplicate “awakening,” free of charge?

I got a feeling the economic collapse is gonna take a big bite outa the “awakening” business. I mean, look at those prices! So if I’m unemployed or on welfare, then “awakening” is certainly NOT in the budget.

The absurdity of this is so utterly transparent that I often wonder why these “awakened” teachers fail to see it. With these professors of enlightenment, has the monetary-value paradigm has usurped the “awakening” paradigm.

Ironically, the game of “awakening” has really only one rule, which is that you NOT be “awakened,” otherwise, you can’t play.

“Diane Hamilton is one of the top spiritual teachers in the world. With a master's degree in contemplative psychology from Naropa Institute, a degree in Feminist Studies from Stanford, and as a senior Zen student of Genpo Roshi and a senior teacher at Integral Spiritual Center, she has been helping other awaken to the power of the now moment for many years.” (here’s the link. unfortunately you gotta be “member-ized” to see this ad)

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

It makes all to much sense! I had an experience while sitting in circle of 40 people, mostly women, a gathering of North Eastern Shamans. We were telling our stories, our stories how we where brought to, guided to, found Shamanism, as the day worn on we sat and listened to wondrous stories, yet among many of them where “teacher” and her students, who claimed to be “Certified” Shamans. They went to school, they where taught through course work, activities, at retreat centers, and someone signed a piece of paper, “Certified”! Hmm many of us who did not have that experience wondered what we missed? 

When I ask the people I know who where Shaman's how to connect with this energy, what do I do they said read this, “The Way of the Shaman” Michael Harner, and others…

Yet I learned by experience, picked rocks for a sweat, sat in drumming circles, to journey and listen to the stories, went for walks in the woods, smelling, tasting, feeling, sensing, listening, to awaken to awareness around me… 

Do I claim any ownership to some thing, no! Have I ever really had a teacher, no! Did I pay for these teachings, yes, with service, with witnessing, with practice, with teaching myself more, learning, listening, being… 

There is some other part of this “spirituality for Profit” That is being asked, that came up for me while reading Denim's post, and Arpita's, that of these are the paths and rituals we know, we use what resonates for us. I have sat in a circle, workshop/gathering with The Gateway of Conscious Evolution, co-created by Jewish women, Barbara Marx Hubbard, where we took Christian Ritual of Communion, Baptism, and Confirmation to infuse us with spiritual wholeness, offering ourselves, as the source, and the witness of each other. Very powerful experience…

Do we get our money back when we do not 'awaken' ? The question may be do with get our money's worth? If we do not take these teachings, these rituals, these moments, an allow them to inform us of our awakening.  We only awaken as much as we are able at the time, it is a process, it is an evolution of of the dance of human ego and the soul. 

Yummy stuff ! Thank you for reminding me… 

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Hello to all, thank you for sharing as well with me. 

I find this issue fascinating on many layers. Yes, it can be a volatile and sensitive issue as you mentioned Arpita, I don’t believe I have gotten into a volatile space on this issue, nor do I really care to, but why does it always have to be? 

It feels like a tricky and confusing scope to look through for the most part, the wannabe and the not. It is a regular filter, constantly sifting. Today we see many more non- native people at ceremonial events, more than ever before. We encourage this as you know. I am not stuck in my ways either to really care that much who is there. I am more concerned about getting my own lazy unenlightend arse there on time. But I now go with my filter scope, this is new for me.

I float between many thoughts on this issue and nothing sticks like cement yet, I know many who are. I can see from here that this is not only a sensitive subject in our own communities but all around. 

It is the “who are you to tell me…” scenario. Well I am no one, so before this flares out of hand, keep that in mind. I am interested in hearing thoughts and attempting to understand what or if at all am I missing something here but I am not that interested in volatile anything. I raised an issue, I feel comfortable to do so here in this space and can’t imagine doing so anywhere else on here. I knew it would raise some feathers, my view count hit an all time record. 

Can we sell spirituality? Is it in a book? These are my thoughts. I can only speak to what I know. I tell many friends and interested folks in the whole Native thing, don’t buy it, please, please never buy it. But I was taught this way, so is it the “right” way? There lies a whole other sensitive issue. I actually believe this however for right or wrong, should or shouldn’t etc. It is not for sale and if you bought it or buying it or selling it…well…you should read the refund policy or insert one.

Yes, mikeS, spooky subject I am sure. I am glad you reposted your blog on this, I really, really enjoyed it! There is a Spiritual hunger out there…and there are many willing to play on it. 

That is the real spooky thing to me.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

there is a spiritual hunger - a desparation - i don't believe that most people try to “play on it”.
 i believe that most people who write books etc are actually empathetic and believe they are doing a good thing.
 - just so you know - my person feathers are not ruffled at all - i enjoy reading all views. 
i will add more later (after work)
warm regards to all
christine

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Hey Guys!

Yes, so many ideas in so many books. I have no problems with ideas from books and I've read many. However, I get what somebody says the master said, but WHAT SAY YOU. I wanna hear that because our deeply engaging will be on that level.

Do you merely spout verbatim someone else's ideas or, once you take it into your own mind, have you been able to change it, add to it, subtract from it and, hence, make it your own?

I've been involved in many pods discussions and whenever someone throws out a quote to prove their point, I have to relent and exit the discussion.

Yes, I hear what Krishna said or Buddha said or Christ said or Krishnamurti, Ken Wilber, Andre Cohen, Yogananda, Nisaragadatta, Maharishi, etc, etc, etc.

They aren't here. So I wanna know, WHAT SAY YOU.

Be the owner of your genius! That's what I wanna be lifted up by and hope you will be lifted by me.

Luckily, it seems everyone in this thread is doing just that. Hahaa!
mikeS

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

To respond to Mikes post first. If I quote someone else it is because I resonate with those words, and no other words of my own seem to say to do what those words/quote may… Got it… 

Demin, you seem to be asking about people thirsting to become Indian, and why is that? Correct? I don't know, you will have to ask those that you encounter at a ceremony. I know that when I am presented with an opportunity to learn of these practices, that are earth based, nature based, such as a sweat or a drumming circle I never ever thought of wanting to be an Indian, what I thought was what am I learning, here? Can I be in touch with nature, the environment on a more personal, spiritual level.

If native american people are selling their spirituality, as in opening the reservations to non Indian people we need to ask why. Are they getting the money back that is owed them for years of destruction, poverty? Are the people trying to fool the non whites… 
Maybe the white people are honoring the spirits by learning of them, through the teaching of the Native peoples? 

I know through my own journey that I have sought to incorporate all teaching from many different sources, I don't desire to be one thing or another, if any thing I would be more Celtic, for I have German, Irish background.

Can you sell spirituality, no! You can sell a book or teach a class or workshop about these things. Spirituality is not something you can buy or sell. Spirituality is an awakening of our inner self. A moving away from materialist form of living… 
How one arrives at the place is what a person is dawn too… 

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Jeff,

Got it!

mikeS

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Thank you so much for engaging me Jeff! I appreciate the additional thoughts to roam around in right now. This thought is an off shoot of a “pony show” I pulled out of last week. I am feeling a little complicated about it all at the moment. Yet feel like I am merely standing to my own beliefs.

Yet I feel kinda shitty about the decision…and therefore trying to find some more picture to this.

There is a very complex conversation that goes along to “selling” the Native spirituality. Many layers all wrapped up in each one of us perhaps. I would be more than willing to dive in on it. The crappy thing is I am pressed for time for the next few days but I wanted to acknowledge your addition here.

It is wrapped up in the “sacredness” and goes back to our prophecies…that is how long this conversation has been going on.

All very interesting with many sides.

I will be back! I am a bit pressed for time and feeling a tad sick so my post here is all swift and on the fly. Next time I will try to be much more eloquent and funny and full of something!

Honest…!

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

this is a very personal subject.  i, personally, have never charged anyone for money to share my gifts with them.  it just doesn't work that way.  this is my perspective.  maybe it is very different for some other folks.  i can't say for them.  but for me, it doesn't work.  to me, i see it that i have been blessed with certain gifts, and gifts are meant to be given away.  to use it for personal gain (ie, money) would be disrespectful of the spirits who brought those gifts to me.

i also have the viewpoint that the current system of economics is an abusive institution, enslaving the world in debt.  but you really don't want to get me started on that, i don't think.  hahahaha    :-)

i do find it somewhat disturbing when people pretend to be indians when my family has been trying so hard to pretend to be white…  yes, very disturbing, indeed.  but that is a personal issue, based upon a certain shame that seems to have begun when the europeans brought with them their abusive systems of economic and religious control.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

I agree with everyone here.  

At the same time, I'm facing a situation where paying rent is going to be… miraculous, if it happens.  (Economy and all.)  

I'm strangely not that worried, but considering the global impact of me not paying rent (on my roommates, for example) I am considering exchanging a bit of energy work for a little bit of help with rent money.  

I mention this to throw a shoe in the wheels of this discussion.   : )  I'm not actually sure I'm going to do energy work for money, but the fact that I am considering it makes me want to raise two questions:

1) Is there something inherently wrong with profiting off of helping others?, that makes it wrong even in a case where this profit is the only means one has of “survival?”
2)if not, what's the root of the issue?  If so, why?  

In other words… what are we really talking about here?

personally I think lao tzu said it best.  To summarize, any who have seen the dao would never try to tell you about it directly.  any who directly try to tell you about it have not seen it.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Alan: What would be wrong with doing energy work for money? I know others have said this already, but how is that different than doing any other sort of work for money? Doctors and psychologist (both healers) command high professional salaries, but they don't generally fret about whether or not it's right for them to get paid. I'd offer instead flipping the question, and asking whether there's anything inherently wrong with not being paid for your services? After all, couldn't this mean the other person is taking advantage of you, or being saddled with the karmic obligation of getting something for nothing, or trying to? Being paid just allows that person to show their appreciation for their work, and for you to stand behind the value of what you offer, and, best of all, for you to inject a little consciousness and awareness and (dare I say it!) love into the current economy. Yes, some believe there is something slightly sinister  about money and the global financial system as it exists today. I think the only problem with it is blindness and unconsciousness (we're so divorced from even a working understanding of capital flows that it allows us to be unaware) and that the solution is not to withdrawn from the system, but to engage it with wide-open-eyes.

:off soapbox:

Anyway. I think this is a great topic. Thank you, all. :)

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

For me, I think the misappropriation of cultural tradition is little more than theft.  To take more than what has been shared or offered directly and freely from any given community, and worse, to twist and profit from it, is not only lack of respect, but diminishes the very core of any given tradition or spiritual Way.  And the truth is, is that no wise man or woman is going to give of their deepest wisdom for profit or anything else and it is a deep error to believe they will or have.  And it is due to the very diminishing of traditional ways through acts of misappropriation that they do not.

But on a deeper level, beyond the greed and ego that has always existed among the profiteering and self-proclaimed, I think many people who follow are simply lost.  What they are lost from, perhaps, is a sense of community and communion within that community, but I am thinking it goes deeper.  I do think people are genuinely seeking a spiritual path, but in having said this, there is always a measure of discernment and honor to be considered in that search. 

I agree with the Lao Tzu perspective and with Kahlil Gibran's: “If [the teacher] is indeed wise, he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.”

I pray I have not come across as too unsettled in my perspective with this.

Blessings :)

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

On the contrary, your perspective struck me as quite settled.  

But I would perhaps suggest that the highest of spiritual traditions always have existed to be stolen, for although the mind that theives is not necessarily the highest mind, what is stolen must eventually overcome the one who steals.  –I really hate to go here but– the best example I can think of is the matrix.  Note that in the end of the third one– which nearly everyone, including me, thought was pretty terrible when it came out– neo willingly gets stolen.  

my feeling is this can take a few thousand years to come full circle, but that makes it no less real, nor less inevitable.  : )

A

Ps. if you kill the buddha, kill him, and then strip the meat from his bones, and make buddha soup.  Buddha won't mind, he exists to be soup.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

“If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!”


Sorry Alan…never saw the Matrix but took another spin with your thoughts in here…thanks!

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Ha! “kill him” only after you force him to tell you “The Secret.” Because the rule is, only ONE can know…

mikeS

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Hello Alan~

LoL, perhaps I ought to have better said agitated.  It did rather come across as quite settled, didn't it?  Oy.  I admit it is a rebellious subject for me.

Quote: “But I would perhaps suggest that the highest of spiritual traditions
always have existed to be stolen, for although the mind that thieves is
not necessarily the highest mind, what is stolen must eventually
overcome the one who steals”

There is a good measure of truth in this.  Thank you. :)

Quote: ”- neo willingly gets stolen.”

Yes, you are right.  Perfect analogy.

Per PS) Blessings~:)

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

yes Alan - i enjoyed that perspective!

in regard to getting paid for energy work… well  - why not?  if people can pay you and are open to receiving what you offer - then it can be a very clean energetic exchange… and for me personally - i do not see any difference between receiving cash for a spiritual experience (for example - the sundance needs money to buy food, the drumming circle needs cash to pay for the rental space, the buddhist organization needs money so the teacher can travel and teach, the massage therapist or energy worker needs to pay rent) and other services that use money as an energetic exchange… like a counsellor, psychotherapist, physiotherapist, a music teacher, a performing artist…
i don't believe that a separation actually exists between the mundane and the spiritual… 

hi nahnni
what interests me is what actually IS a cultural tradition…
and is it ever meant to remain static.  is it even possible to remain static - since conditions change all the time.  i would imagine that traditions evolve and adapt to the requirements of the current environment… and if they don't - they fade away - even if there is enormous attachment to keeping things as they are…
what is your view?  and yours denim, boogie…

respectfully
arpita (or christine)

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Hey Guys!

Interesting discussion, so I thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth. There are many sociological theorists that tend to separate culture and society.

Culture is open-ended and expands or contracts based on the limits that evolve with the participants in a culture. While society merely contracts based on laws imposed by elite members of a society.

Culture is not bounded, while society limits. Society seeks to distort culture, while culture seeks to break free of society.

Society requires contracts, legislation and numerous other codified rules, while culture is created through engagement and what grows from that.

Society demands payment for teaching culture, while culture freely teaches how to break free of society.

Teachers who charge for teaching truth are victims of society, while teachers who teach unconstrained by the dictates of society are teaching culture.

just saying…what say you..
mikeS

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Siona and Arpita: I agree with you guys!

I guess, Siona, I was trying to say there's nothing inherently wrong with receiving money for services at all.  However, if the ultimate goal of the services is a world that has no money, it is a bit of a catch 22, isn't it?

Money, however one acquires it, remains a dangerous substance, built fundamentally on the inequity that causes suffering and death around the globe.

What do you say to this?  It's been forever since we had a discussion! (the first one was very excellent, do you remember it?)

Arpita, yes, there is definitely that issue– lets say I accept no money, become homeless, and can't do any energy work at all.  This would be worse, probably, than if I accepted money for it.  

So I don't think it's an absolute case where one should never.  I think it's a case where I, personally, want to take great care, and a case where I wonder at all the people who aren't taking great care.

I heard recently of a popular guru/businessman who's name I won't mention.  He deletes incoming emails that are more than 50 words, without reading them, according to rumor.  now, not sure that's true, but if it were– and it's plausible– can't you imagine how many poured their heart out to him but, because they used 59 words, got no response?  Can you imagine how many he's hurt that way?  What an extreme case of confusion he's living in…

Becoming that sort of thing scares the hell out of me.  No, caution's best.
: )

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Alan: I don't believe money is inherently bad. I believe money magnifies, and that money is a reflection of the world and culture it mediates. If the culture is exploitative and committed to unconsciousness, the medium of exchange it engages in will be as well. If the culture is cooperative and conscious, it stands to reason that the means it uses to coordinate the trade of goods and services will be as well. Money is a fine way of negotiating complex relationships. We just need to be aware of those relationships, rather than use money as an excuse to ignore them. Our human culture, at least my mind, could never have gotten as connected as it has without the flow of capital to organize and create those connections. However, we do come with our shadows. :)

As to 'dangerous substances,' isn't consciousness dangerous as well? What else has such means to disrupt someone's safe little world? ;)

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Hi Christine~

I so much enjoyed Alan's insight into the matter, that I am mulling these things around in my spirit pocket, so to speak.

Specific to indigenous culture, it is that history which has been experienced, developed and held as sacred across a great span of time.  For an illustration, my friend, Joe, is an artist.  In respect to the sacred ceremonial objects of his ancestry, he chooses not to include these sacred items in his paintings and uses only six sacred ceremonial colors.  Yes, he has made this choice, but his choice is directly based on the spirituality of his Anishinabe culture.  Now, if someone comes in and rewrites that tradition from a culture which has desired to preserve it, and then seeks to profit from it, I see that as a terrible injustice. 

But it is true that things inevitably evolve, whether in 50, 000 years or 50,000 days, hours or minutes.  Much is lost and what remains becomes altered.  But I think we lose more than we know when we take from an oral tradition and a history and attempt to fit it to our own frame, especially when we have control over whether to respect that history or not.

Then again, there is the willing factor, conscious or otherwise…and the things which are inevitable just by the Nature of Things.  Perhaps we are all Tevyes' and must reflect that “on the other hand…” rests the balance of things.

I hope I make some sense in reply to your question.

Blessings :)

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anyone want to buy the nephilim hypothesis for 5000 bucks!LMAO….

hey, you'd get to be the 2nd person on the planet to believe it might be true:)

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

andrew,

To sell something worthless, all you need is a good marketing plan. There definitely is a market for “transcendence.” You just have to know how to manipulate the customer and make him want it.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

hi all
 Nahnni

i hear you and really get that the stuffing of oral traditions into a modern package doesnot work well.  i believe actually that there is a dynamic energy that is transmitted in the “telling of the story”.  and that it was integral in the cultural context of living in community and the natural world… a non-verbal, even non-conceptual energy… just not possible to talk about well in an intellectual way - but is easier to access these days through poetry or music or through devotional activities…  this actually ties into what i am attempting to write about offline (to post eventually) in regard to guru-student relationships.

to generalize - i suspect modern world is predominantly left brained with right brain activities as embellishment - or as servant to the left brain activities

but i suspect that oral tradition cultures (and the eastern “spiritual” paradigms) were much more balanced in right and left brain - accessing right brain activity much more… affecting view and relating.  perhaps it is the difference with what part of the brain is activated in modern culture is the reason  why i am having so much trouble writing intellectually about my relationship with my guru (which seems to be a nasty word for many folks these days)… it is easier to capture the energy with musical tones - or poetry.

anyway - to get back to the traditions of the ancient peoples of the continent - yes, an enormous amount has been lost.  but - i believe what has been lost is still accessible - through accessing and remembering the feelings rather than the thoughts about the feelings.  arising of energy that translates into gratitude, empathy, compassion, devotion - all words we use for relating - but to just feel the naked feeling BEFORE the word is attached… BEFORE there is a separation of self and other…  i believe the well-spring is there.

oops - i digressed again.

tying in with what Alan has said -
i think there is a difference , in energy, between someone who manipulates and charges people  for predominantly left brained gain versus someone who offers something and charges people from a more balanced perspective and right and left mind.  energy exchange IS a rule of existance…. (yes there is a rule in the game - at least in the game of embodied existance)

form always changes, energy always moves.  whether it is the air in and out of the lungs with each breath - or barter - trading services and goods, or a robin eating a worm, or the living of generations of the necessary bacteria inside your intestinal tract, or even in the process of giving and receiving something - whether money is used or not….

i don't believe money is inherently evil.  it is just a symbol of value.  a symbol that we have all agreed on…. more practical and much more versatile these days than having bags of beans or spices around…

what creates change in the world system is the intention - how you relate to the dance of energetic exchange… 
when we set an intention - first there is a feeling - then the thought arises around it - containing it through our intellectual conditioning. 
but what if we loosened up the intellectual conditioning… instead of keeping the left brain as ruler of our lives - how about if we approach energetic exchange from a balanced mind - right and left mind together - and see where that gets us? 

i bet the whole issue of spirituality for profit would just disappear and we would simply be helping each other - exchanging our natural gifts (whether money or other symbol of value is used or not) for the benefit of the whole.

sheesh i wasn't expecting to write all that!
i better post it before i erase it all.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Wonderful discussion and input, I don’t agree with most but that is OKAY and why I am enjoying this dialogue and this space. Nahanni, you certainly have a
way with your words and thoughts that I appreciate.


“Is there something inherently wrong with profiting off of helping others?,
that makes it wrong even in a case where this profit is the only means one has
of “survival?”” Good one Alan, that leads me down the path of another debate, is helping motivated by altruistic or egoistic factors? My cousin has some pretty whacked out notions that he helping others by selling a little “special smoke”! 


I suppose it depends on what one is selling and how this is wrapped up. Yes, I understand the economic pressure that some folks are experiencing. The sideshow pony show I pulled out of came with a lucrative offer attached to it. I stand beside my beliefs and values, I will find other ways to survive, and I trust that I always do. 


Could have I helped them by offering some “Native spiritual teachings” for a fee on a weekend get away? 


No.


If they thought, I could have helped them than I am of the belief that they may need more help than I can ever offer, even if it was free and forever.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Shoot, sorry arpita…we posted at the same time!

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Alan asked what we are really talking about here. Perhaps he is right to ask this. I am not making my point clear enough. Let me try again. 
I am talking about selling and buying spirituality in a shopping mall while running in for a new pair of Nike shoes and rubber patches for your bike tires. This is a statement of affairs that I see around me. Any brand of spirituality for that matter. I am inserting Native Spirituality because this is what I can speak to and I see that in the New Age market anything Native has become the top seller. There is a commercial explosion of Indigenous spiritual anything. There is big money being made in this market.
That is what I am really talking about here. Shopping and selling spirituality in a shopping mall is a sentiment of our times. Consumerism and consumption of the New Agers is a fascinating observation, to me anyway. So what I would like to offer here is to raise this issue of how it is viewed at least in some of the Native communities.
This commercial exploitation is viewed as offensive and a mockery or our ceremonies and our culture. As shared already, what is out there being sold is run down and diluted understandings of what Native spirituality is really about. It fixates itself with an exotic or romanticized desire of their own about our rituals and traditions. This distorted view keeps us locked in a past and masks some of the more real understandings people should know of our Nations.
These bake and shake shamans have demonstrated more disrespect for the people than they understand. Or do they? There are many vocal bodies in the US and in Canada speaking out, protesting and keeping a list of names, that is pretty trippy!
If you paid for it, it was a hoax. There is nothing authentic about it. Profiting off the “wisdom of the ancient ones” is offensive that perpetuates more harm and confusion of the Native peoples by further oppression of the real and authentic voice of their own.
Learning this way of life take years and years and discipline, oh and it has to be done in person! I do not mess with this shit, I wish others wouldn’t either, what if it is true…than that can be freaking dangerous! 

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

what if it is true…

but…  it is true!  it is real.  the stories you were raised with are very much real to me.  but the things people say about them, that messes it all up.  because to think it's okay to attempt to control spirit, means that you are controlled.  money is just another form of control.  it's wrong. 

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

http://tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1357&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p8175

what we call “money” is actually debt. debt is slavery.
a life without debt is not very difficult for me to understand.
what would motivate people? oh, their own inner drives.

money motivates greed and competition,
which is the basis of today's abusive society, fair enough. but it
doesn't have to be that way. without such abusive controls, people
would help each other, like the true history that has been hidden from
us. the lawless society of the old west was not that of which you
speak, it was the native americans who were here first. for thousands
of thousands of years, we lived and prospered just fine without the
domination of roman “civilization.” there was plenty to eat, for
everyone. there would be today, if governments didn't pay farmers to
not grow crops, if farmers were not afraid of being sued by monsanto, a
corporate beast that now claims patent on life, itself!!

we didn't need your society that came along and tried to kill everyone it was unable to enslave.
we
still don't need it. we don't need your money. we don't need your laws.
we don't need the lies that your official history tells. what we need
is truth. if we don't know what really happened in our past, how are we
to create the future our children deserve to inherit?

the
“founding fathers” of which you speak did wage war, that much is true.
they waged war on truth and decency, they waged war on the human
instinct for freedom, as freedom is and always has been a threat to
those who wish to rule. and then you throw in abraham lincoln, who
lived a hundred years later (ie, not a founding father),
whose job was to erase as much history as possible, while killing as
many native americans as possible, without letting on to the public
that the war was not against slavery, but to create more debt to
enslave us all.

the union troops were charged with destroying
all of the cemeteries and churches in the south. why? to hide birth and
marriage records, of course. to hide the truth of who we are. what
nonsense it all is. and the lies are perpetuated, which prevents us
from knowing what really happened, which prevents us from being able to
make informed decisions.

how can you predict the future with any
reasonable accuracy if you don't even know what really happened in the
past? the truth will set us free.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

hi Denim
i hear what you are saying and i can understand why it is so offensive to the native nations.  the romanticizing of the indigenous… and the buying of it .
as i said before - white culture is hungry… very very hungry to find meaning… and will consume anything - especially sugar coated and rose colored.
consuming is far easier than tearing off and exposing the generations of unconscious pain and separation from which the voracious apetite arises.

it is how it is.  but that is why i point toward the possibility of accessing another way to relate to it… thereby slowly making change - one person at a time… red person, white person, black person, yellow person … the ceremonial colors mix these days - the races and nations mix these days… so maybe it is time to relax all of our separate views a bit to engage each other in a more intimate way.

in any case - i appreciate very much what you have expressed. 

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Boogie, thanks for posting that bit about money… it literally is a system of indebted servitude… if you don't believe me, go find out, by virtue of your social security number (americans) how much money you owe to china.  : )

Moreover, “money” exists so surpluses of “wealth” can exist.  Surplusses of wealth depend on shorfalls of wealth.  In other words, if there is no wealth there is no property: everyone just has what they make or are given.  

In order for one to have more than what they make or are given (what OTHER people make, or are given), one must have 'frozen potential'– a symbol of the ability to get stuff, or by stuff.  

In other words, money.  Frozen potential: 5 bucks can be any myriad of things, once it's cashed in.  But only if there are people in sweat shops making the things, and other people in dangerous mines mining the things that make the things.  The system is insidious.

Denim, in my agreement with you can I tell a true story?

Once upon a time, there was a group– gnostics.  This is historical fact, btw.  This group, the gnostics, had a wonderful and rich oral history.  One day, the roman empire came.  They took over the land.  

Eventually, they saw the wonderful rich oral history of the gnostics as a threat, because that rich oral history lead people to believe that things like money weren't worth engaging with, I guess. 

So, they began twisting and commercializing that oral history, writing it down, co-opting it, and ethnic-cleansing the gnostics.  

A century or two later, Christianity was the official religion of the roman empire.   

I have put this here to reinforce what you are saying about American (with no qualifiers) culture being commercialized.  It's not something I'm entirely pleased with, but my skin's a bit too dark to take it on as a talking point.  : )  

But… when we are here to take the truth back, are we not these old oral traditions being trojan horses?  

or, can we be?  

I think so.  

It makes me laugh.  hahaha!   

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

and ok, I hope I won't offend you but I must say, because I hear him–

somewhere in spacetime, Crazy Horse is out there, saying:

“Doesn't matter if it takes me 800 years.  I'm going to take these fuckers down.”

…who's got his blood?  Who's found his spirit?

–

and from me, please remember “these fuckers” to be not the people but the system that has them so confused and violent.  Trojan horses…

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

why should i pay a spiritual teacher to teach me something i don't believe is true?

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

I don't know why would you? do anything you did not believe is true? 

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

And maybe the fact that you seek only those who teach what you already believe means there is no need for learning what you already know.

mikeS

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Could the bottom line be that everything has its price?  I think of that line in Glenn Frey's “Smuggler's Blues” song: The lure of easy money has a very strong appeal.

Or

Does money get you through times of no spirituality more than spirituality gets you through times of no money? to twist the old words of Free wheelin' Frank.

I can find no honor in snake oil spirituality, which is what I see a lot of these spiritual teachers as actually being. No more, no less. And I find that sad.  Sometimes I wish that those like Wayne Dyer, being only one example in a sea of many, really ought to end their seminars and books by saying thank you all for this lovely life on Maui you have provided for me. 

Oy~

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Nahnni,

Sometimes I wish that those like Wayne Dyer, being only one example in
a sea of many, really ought to end their seminars and books by saying
thank you all for this lovely life on Maui you have provided for me.

Hahaa! well phrased and to the point. Yes, Dyer put out some great stuff on cognitive psychology many years ago (“your erroneous zones”) making that realm of psychology more accessible to the masses. Yet, now that spirituality is the middle class distraction, he seems to be interpreting old classics like the Dao Te Ching. Call me crazy, but it seems to me if you want to learn Taosim, it might be best to read the Dao Te Ching yourself. When it comes to these Great books, I feel it's best to try and find the most original edition so as not to have the concepts too watered down. Yet, I suppose since postmodern society doesn't have time for that, the Cliffs Notes are necessary.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Well that would certainly add a twist Nahanni! Oy~

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

mike, have you checked out the price of Cliff Notes lately…they finally caught on! 

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Okay, I didn't read through the entire thread. I'm not a fast reader and I often get so caught up in what everyone else is saying I run out of time to post my own thoughts.
I would like to share my own experience on this subject. My father was a pastor in an Amish/Mennonite church. He believed that money should not be accepted for a spiritual calling, but then proceeded to get married and have 10 kids! Now, we were always clothed and fed and aside from being a pastor he also farmed and later took on teaching jobs (for money) to support the family. My mother raised and sold dogs, made “Koch Kase” (cooked cheese) to sell at the market and they made their way in the world just fine. However, based on my experience growing up I think people should think about their families when making these noble decisions. The churches I grew up in (my father preached a few) were also very tribal. You have to fit into your tribe to feel a sense of belonging. You need to follow the rules and traditions. People with original thoughts do not fit into the tribe. The pastors family was looked at to set an example for other families in the church. That's fine and dandy for the adults making that choice but rather a challenge for the children. I'm very turned off by the marketing and high prices charged in today's culture of “enlightenment” but I've lived the other side too. Ultimately, I suppose my feeling is “caveat emptor”, each of us must chose how we spend the money we earn. A spiritual path cannot be purchased, it must be journeyed.

Re: Spirituality for Profit?

Hey pointeight!

Welcome and thanks for jumping in and engaging!

There definitely are many angles to this issue. However, yes, “caveat emptor” is crucial to making decisions.

Thanks,
mikeS