Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Why would we think that we can know the ‘self’ or even parts of the self, simply by self-observation or some technique of long-term spiritual introspection?

The observer is biased!

However, others see what we cannot because it is through others that we have defined the ‘self,’ not alone, not in isolation, but through engagement with a world of other egos asserting self into an experience of 'world'. The ego-self is entirely other-referencing and without others, it could not exist at all.

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Hi Mike~

I don't think we can know ourselves completely through sole self-observation.  I agree that we depend a great deal on the validation of the social collective, more than we like to admit, perhaps.  I think one has moments of: “Wow, I don't like that particular characteristic [ impulse, etc] in myself.  I am going to work  on changing it,” that do come without any outside influence or we suddenly recognize something in another that we don't like in ourselves, so we reflect on that and may seek to attempt to change it in ourselves.  And we reject others based on our own self-assessment as well within the social stratosphere.

Then, again, even as a child we can refuse a label, but even in that refusal, yes, there is conflict and sometimes eventual acquiescence.  And I do think we misinterpret all the time, that which we think we are sharing, when, in fact, we are not, based on misinterpreting another's agenda.  We've all been around those whose egos seem overblown, and I often wonder if they are over-compensating with an almost unbearable egotism (in the eyes of others) as a defense against emotional pain.

What is that saying?  We are all the center of our own universe among the colliding of universes?  Or something like that. 

Quote: “Yet, this must
always be conflictual because those embodied egos we join with have
plans of their own to give meaning to their existence. This creates
conflict, often of a chronic nature.”

On another level, what would then be considered bonding and trust with relationships between these embodied egos?  Does the twain ever meet, or just never?  What is the difference between shallow and greater depth? 

Thanks~
Nahnni

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Hey Nahnni!

I thought this post was gonna die a natural death, as many of my posts do (and many more should, ha!). Thanks for bringing it back to life!

Actually, I have come to believe that we know ourselves completely through others and not at all through self-observation. This is because we have completely defined ourselves through others. However, most of this defining, which many often call growth, is not on a conscious level. The introspection you mention seems to me to be on a gross consciousness level, while most happens under the radar.

“I” am an “I” because “you” are a “you.” I suppose realizing this dissolves the feeling of a gap.

The mind is always thinking and all the thoughts thunken (is that a word?)are learned from engaging with others and that is how we actually define our engagement with the world or that which we call “life.”

Maybe “awakening” is finally realizing this as fact. It's amusing to me how, when the bright ones 'awaken,' the first thing they embark on is 'teaching,' when in fact this is merely a front for the deep desire to engage that can't be denied. Hahaa!

But of course, this idea puts me at odds with the “spiritual practices” people, since I tend to hold that the only practice necessary is engagement.

But I could be wrong………….nah!
mikeS

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Hi Mike~

Hmmmm.  I began thinking of the realm of the imagination and its role in all of this. So, I am inspired to have tried a thread on that very topic.  I don't know if I fine tuned the question as much as I would like without having resorted to babble, which is easy for me to do, but I thought to give it a try.   

Blessings,
Nahnni

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Hi Mike, Nahnni,

I think you're completely right: knowing oneself is all about the ego.  Not knowing oneself is beyond the ego.

Frans

P.S. Mike - I know what you're going to say: not knowing is just anther form of…….but that's not what I'm trying to convey :-)

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Yo Frans!

“just another form of….”  what!? I think I've somehow forgotten what you think I'm supposed to say! Hahaa!

“I think you're completely right: knowing oneself is all about the ego.  Not knowing oneself is beyond the ego.”

hmmmm…did I say that? Maybe i meant knowing oneself is learning of oneself through other egos. In fact, it is knowing itself not through agreement with other egos, but through the conflict of opposition.

What say you?
mikeS

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Hey Tharlam!

My theoretical contention is that one cannot know a unified self, through self-introspection which merely posits and reinforces the isolated and separate self. However, it nothing but a theory and I will never argue with an individuals experience. But, of course, once we verbalize an experience, we then are philosophizing and philosophies often conflict.

So, in the spirit of philosophy, I would only speculate that it is neither a unified nor is it a separate self that we finally come to realize as truth. More a combined effort of both which is the paradox. We are individuals, yes and no, and we are unified, yes and no.

But, as always, I'm just saying…what say you?
mikeS

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Afraid you lost me brother!

Ha-ha.

My apologies.

What I wrote makes no sense to me either, if it is any consolation. 

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

That's okay, Tharlam. I've been known to lose myself in these threads. let me jump to the next one and see if I'm there.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

MikeS!

An ego without conflict is like an ego without fear - it's not an ego anymore…

Frans

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Thank you Frans

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Frans,

Yes, and an ego without conflict or fear is only a theoretical construct and cannot possibly exist as an “I.” You can never be a 'self' and know beyond the self. Yet, it does appear we can be a self making interpretations that we are being informed by something other than a self and we do that quite often.

Maybe when we finally realize that it is the self, always and all the time, we will achieve what they refer to as 'enlightenment' and finally change the world for the better.

An ego-self experiencing itself engaged in diminishing conflict would be an ego-self attempting to reframe it's construct of fear and conflict and this can probably go on ad infinitum. This is all we can ever be in relation to an embodied self and a self experiencing a body is the only way a self can be a self.

I understand how this picture can seem somewhat bleak and hopeless and cause some to seek more desperately for some 'savior' external or beyond the self.

However, I see it as quite liberating because it places full responsibility squarely on the ego-self and I believe it's about time the self takes responsibility for itself.

Don't you?
mikeS

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Hey MikeS,

I think your self is too limited (no pun intended - or just a little bit).

Developing one-self does lead to a self that is beyond (but still incorporates) the ego - never when this is a goal, but certainly when this is allowed to happen as part of the process.

All one can do is develop one-self and yes - it's about time all those one-selves took responsibility :-) (pun intended)

Frans

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

Fran,

I must say, this incorporation thing is intriguing and I need to give it more think.
I suppose I sense it is merely ego making compromises with itself in order to further itself. But Integral has some fascinating theoretical components that can't be ignored (although they can certainly be resisted and I enjoy doing so, ha!).

My concern is that this is no different than religion's external savior or god-above concept, yet a much more subtle conceptual construct.

I bow to your wetter water for now (but I'm sure we'll dive into this again in the future).
mikeS

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

MikeS,

Maybe your ego is too stuck in concepts of itself? 

You'll know it when you experience it - you probably have already (I'd be surprised if you haven't).

No matter what - I enjoy splashing in the water!
Frans

Re: Ego-Self Defined Through Others

an ego that stands for something may just fall for God.