Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Here it is! Finally what you’ve been seeking all these years: The Big Mind/Big Heart Workshop

“You'll have a real, tangible experience of being One with the entire universe
— what Genpo Roshi calls Big Mind/Big Heart. I'm talking about the same
experience a Zen master or other enlightened master has — something that usually takes decades of meditation and direct work with a spiritual master to achieve. I'm not kidding. You'll experience this amazing state (more than once) during these two days, and I promise it will change your life — forever…” (Big Mind/Big heart Workshop)

You gotta love this game!

Now we have a psychologist and a “Zen master” teaming up to deliver directly to you the best quality “enlightenment” that money can buy. And it will only take you two days, and $599 (early registration only), to experience what an “enlightened master” experiences after a lifetime of sacrifice and struggle. However, you better hurry and register NOW because:

“The event will be June 27 -28 in Vancouver, BC and in order to
make it more intimate we are limiting the number of attendees. So, if you're interested, please register right away. Since we're offering a special discount for early registration, it's very possible that early registrants alone will fill the event. So please don't wait if you want to be there.” (forget about “Be Here Now,” you need to be ‘there now.' Actually this 'one time' event was held in March, but I suppose “to make it more intimate” another date was added)

“Buddha Mind — the mind of clarity, transcendental wisdom, and unconditional compassion — and, the profound personal and psychological insights that go with it.”

“In 1973 he ordained as a Buddhist monk under the guidance of Taizan Maezumi, completing his koan studies in 1979. Before ordaining in 1973,he had spent a year in silent retreat in the mountains of California. In 1980 he became a Dharma Successor of Maezumi. Starting in 1982 Merzel began traveling to areas of Europe and established an international network of Zen groups. Genpo Merzel received inka from Bernard Glassman in October 1996 of the White Plum lineage. He has also served as President of White Plum Asanga.”

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

HEY!!
Vancouver!!
i'm not enlightened!  i could go! 
anyone got a spare $597  to sponser me?
(oh - you better throw in another $150 to cover lost wages - dang budgets … and ferry and gas transportation - ummm say $100 for the car … oh - food - hmm - another $40 - i'll avoid the high end restaurants)
good news though - i can stay at my mom's so no hotel!!

total cost to you (whoever you are)
$887 … oh … the fee is probably US dollars … if your american - make it an even $850 and that will cover the differences in currency exchange…

ok?….

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Well, all I have to say about the matter is that some folks just ain't got no shame.

Geesh~~

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Bill Harris is quite the character, isn't he..?  The North American version of the enlightened marketing guru :-)

On the other hand - Genpo Roshi's Big Mind process does have a lot of good to offer - and you can get it for free on his own website.  I did a few sessions myself via the Integral Institute website, and it has potential (try it for yourself, don't take my word).  I joined that group for about 6 months a few years ago and you can get incredible info (interviews, art, music etc.) there - it was only $10.00 to sign up, so no or very little commercial interest there.

The commercialization of spirituality - it's a bad thing…or is it?  Maybe it's the only way to get exposure to the many, and maybe a few of the many will need this push to get “it”…

Frans

P.S. someone gave me an old “Holosync” cd from Bill Harris a while ago and it does work - hate to say it, but it brings your mind into a meditative state almosr instantaneously…

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

I keep hearing about this holosync - almost instantaneous? Wow!

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hmm, found this link on the holosync demo (read the comments too)

http://www.mindtweaks.com/wordpress/?p=398

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hey Nicole,

I've never seen the demo; got a cd (I think it's a 3rd level) from a friend when she got her 4th level in :-).  There is no advertising (unless it's subliminal of course) on this copy, and I quite like the idea of being able to let someone experience the feeling of a meditative state easily…

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

I like that idea too Frans. The whole deal sounds rather expensive though, and the demo… well. But I am definitely going to look into this. I know there is a Holosync group here on Gaia, I'm going to see what they have to say…

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Fear not, it seems the recession is striking the world of spirituality too.
Now I don't know if this works, if you get what you pay for well, maybe it's an inferior kind of enlightenment….nirvana on the cheap.

You don't even need to waste 2 days………..hell everyone is busy.

This is your offer of the week, it's free and takes one minute. It doesn't actually specify how long the process takes or how long you have to do it, but at that price, who's complaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zEqpHX5Ib0

Hmm, and I've been wasting a whole 10 mins at a time on the ILP version, just think what I could do with those other minutes:-)


Liz

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Liz, you get what you pay for, I guess :)

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

it's kind of funny that i was thinking today while i was driving home why so many people that claim spiritual practice still SEEM to take advantage of weaker people. is this spiritual darwinism? do the strong still get to exploit the weak even though they can do yoga up the ying/yang?

perhaps nirvana is samsara and there are predators all the way up and all the way down…………………

hey, it's in vancouver…..i wonder if any of these gurus can talk the bankers out of the 30% interest that they charge me so that i can afford to go to one of these retreats….now that would be enlightenment in action…….

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

hey andrew, and it would be so much cheaper than arpita's that they might as well just cover both your costs - would only be $1500 or so. What a bargain! :)

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

10% is just such a happy and joyful, this is ample profit number nicole…and we all know how spiritual the bankers are and how tight they are with the guru's, so this shouldn't be that hard. and think of the tradition! the conservatives will love it! hell, it was even enough for god and we all know what a greedy  tight-ass he is…………………….only letting 144,000 thru the pearly gates…………….

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Can I provide a different point of view? What's wrong with taking care of those who provide a valuable service? What's wrong with financially supporting those practices and teachers and processes and technologies that help us create space in our lives and commit to exploring our paths? In the old days 'laypeople' used to support monasteries, and even today tithing is still a popular practice. We have no problem paying for other services, like car repair and consulting and entertainment and news. We pay for hospital services. We pay for therapy. Why not spiritual guidance?

The way I see it is this. These practices and processes are utterly available to any of of: all it takes is a commitment of time and practice and discipline. Creating the discipline to practice, without any outside support, is hard for some people. However, by paying–by making a financial sacrifice or investment to the practice–those individuals are making an explicit commitment, one that others recognize (i.e. money). Yes, I'm sure that money could be better spent. Yes, I'm sure those programs are not teaching anything new. However, the relationship seems to work, so who am I to criticize it?

I don't really understand the 'fast track' version of spirituality, though. I mean, if you're enlightened, why would you want more time? ;)

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

your always welcome here siona:)

i can't speak for mike but i can speak about the general gist of what i think he's been saying on this issue for some time now. which is, it SEEMS as though 25/3500 yrs. of eastern spiritual philosophy hasn't done much to alleviate horrendous pain and suffering on this planet; and that indeed, it sometimes seems that things are getting worse and worse for us ole 2 legged primates….so, why should we keep paying for something that has proven to be ineffective. a 25/3500 yr. old business plan that looks like a failure might be something we want to consider not investing in……….

but ya know, i never speak for anyone else, and i'm just saying too…lmao………..

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Wasn't it Aristotle who first proposed that society support its' philosophers? 

Hi Siona~

Would it not be fair to assert that if the greatest spiritual teachers that we record historically, would have charged exorbitant fees to hear their message, only the wealthiest would have accessed it?  Monasteries, to a good measure, were, and are, self sustaining institutions, providing useful wares for costs they receive(d) outside of spiritual comfort…selling bread, wine, medicinal herb formulas, spices, et al, and yes, they had their needed sponsors as well.

I am not convinced that spiritual guidance is a salable thing.  To learn a spiritual practice which enhances, ie: yoga, tai chi, is one thing, but matters of the soul do not seem the stuff of monetary gain and many, many modern day “spiritual teachers” are taking advantage of those who are desperately seeking meaning in their lives and who will accept, all too often on face value, the integrity of the teaching and the teacher.  This would be my ethical stance.  The reality is, if one is willing to pay for these things from their disposable income, then that is what one is willing to do.  The money that one has spent to support these “teachers” might well be better spent on a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen, but yes, it is an individual choice.  I find the sale of spiritual guidance in a lecture hall or a near $600. workshop, a sad thing, but if, as you say, the relationship works for some, that is ok too, in looking at it from that perspective.

Peace :)

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

andrew :):):)

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

well… you know… if i was wealthy (financially that is) - i would consider going!

Siona - thanks for speaking another perspective

hey andrew
interesting to hear your views .  i have a comment…
i just don't buy that argument about the eastern philosophies not doing much… (yours and mikes). 
it sure made a huge impact on my life - and that is only one life.  It has shaped the lives of many of my friends and has helped to shape the dynamic interesting community in which i live.   generosity and kindness are a natural consequence of the practices…

how do you and mike (sorry mike i am kind of putting words in your mouth here) know that these philoshophies haven't alleviated horrendous pain and suffering??  have you been keeping tabs over the past 3000 years or so?  do you have a vision of alternative courses of history in order to compare??
what cultures/philosophies have been responsible for overwhelming pain and suffering - any one more than another??  if you do not know the answer, then your statement about eastern spiritual philosophy doesn't mean anything - and is just egoic positioning…

the current state of the planet is not due to the spiritual philosophies not working… rather - i think it is highly more likely to say:
the current state of the planet (ie - worse and worse for us ole 2 legged primates) is due to the majority of the population NOT perceiving or understanding various spiritual philosophies… NOT understanding in a deep way… that each individual is not independant of the rest of everything, that each is inseparable part of a greater whole” - a view which is … well… “eastern”.

that's my egoic positioning.
thanks for the opportunity to “speak”.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

And more they would do for their own 'spirituality' if people cared enough to give money to homeless shelters, as Nahnni suggested, then to spend it on spiritual attainment.  

The problem is perpetuation of confusion.  If the goal of 'spirituality' is clarity, selling this goal– in and of itself, perhaps a confusion– would be a bit of a problem.  

Siona, the problem is simply that it is past time we leave money behind.  Money must be left behind.  

I try to rarely make blanket statements, but this is one I feel safe making.  

Perhaps the 'spiritual masters' charging people for spirituality should consent to be living examples.  They do all their 'students' a disservice, if money must be left behind.  

If money's fundamentally ok, well, no problem.  The question is, again, is money fundamentally ok?  

Or does it depend on imbalance, where the few have and the many do not have?

If it depends on an imbalance where the few have and the many do not have, money must be left behind.  Personally I don't trust any who claim mastery and can't at least justify their fees, or don't try to.  

I wouldn't mind charging the rich a bunch of money for services, myself.  
But I wouldn't keep the money, either.  It doesn't belong to me.  That's the whole point… nothing does.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Well, I feel, that there is some value in relationship even if one is charging a fee for spirituality. I have learned from many experiences that I have paid highly for, even if it is that I didn't need that particular teaching or lesson. Try paying for something, with a no money back guarantee, and see if you don't learn the lesson of not doing it again (particularly if you struggled to pay for it).
I support that which supports me, even teachings that support me, by putting my energy (which is sometimes money), to that end. BUT, when fees are so exorbidant or no waiver of fees (due to poverty) is not in place, it makes me wonder about the “heart” of the teachings. We do pay for everything on one level or another, don't we? I'm talking about the relationship of giving and receiving. That can look like payment in some instances.
Now, no one works for free, do they? So, I think it is okay to pay for even spiritual guidance services, BUT maybe this could look different. Maybe it could look like this: Someone offers something and someone else offers something in return and agreement is met and it continues, or dissolves. Who can really say there is no value in any of these offerings?
Alan, I think fundamentally money is not the problem, but the imbalance of how it is thought of and used and the agreements we make with others about it, not fully understanding the relationship outside the contract of it, that might lead to such disagreement. When I say money, I mean, a form of energy exchange. We agree to things in the finite now only to change and come to disagreement when we get a glimpse of the infinte horizon.
With all that said, I ain't going at the low price of $597 with $200 off! I'd rather learn and grow with yous guys/guyettes.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

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Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

I work for free.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Very well said Satya. 

Money is just energy.  Whether money existed or not, we would still have the same imbalance unless we change our mentality around it.  Instead of thinking of the price as something fixed, think of it as a unit of energy.  Does the amount of energy going in (what you pay for the class), equal what you will get out (knowledge).  When you start to see money in these terms, you will realize that there is no inherent evil in paying for something as long as you are getting something of equal value in return.

I have to admit that I am starting to get a little fed up with the idea that everyone that has money is inherently greedy and corrupt.  Do you think it is possible to amount great wealth and still be an amazing person?  I put someone like Mother Theresa on the same level as Bill Gates when it comes to wealth.  He chooses to give through his products and foundation (one of the biggest in the world supporting many causes and fighting to stop diseases); she chose to give through personal service. 

I should probably stop because this is one of those conversations that I think is best done in person.  I think that people would be much happier in their relationship with money when they realized that it is not evil - it is just another form of energy to be used.  If you don't like the price of the class, you can either not take it or propose a different energy exchange with the teacher.  Many will accept it.

Either way, I would ask you to stop judging others that have money.  You have no idea what went into putting that class together.  Though it may sound expensive to you, it may turn out that after all the expenses, the teacher gets very little.  Or it could be that the teacher gets lots because that is the value of the teachings.  Either way, as enlightened beings, it would probably be better to learn to accept or walk away.  Judging others is beneath us…  we're much better than that.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Eastern philosophies have been invaluable. In the west, until 1900, there was no concept of awakening, unless it was accidental. The question is why has spirituality become big business? I suppose it's the way collective egos work. The Buddha would be shocked at Buddhism today; in his lifetime, he avoided any sort -ism. His words were transcribed and transliterated 100 years after his death, so we can't really know the truth, but he would be shocked at the hierarchy, money movement, and sectarianism of Buddhism. Christ would be shocked at all aspects of Christianity for the same reason. Buddha wanted people to be Buddhas, not Buddhists; and Christ wanted people to be Christ, not Christians. Egos very quickly become followers, conceptual and hierarchical.

But this does not render all teachings meaningless. It simply exposes egoic movements.

Are the movements of spirituality in west today any different from the movements of psychological therapy? There is some value and lot of hierarchy, money, meaningless jargon.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Kaushik!

Are you saying that eastern philosophies are “invaluable” because they've introduced concepts of awakening? But aren't all teachings simply “egoic movements”? And does not western religion have its own concept of awakening, such as “born again,” “salvation,” “revelation,” etc?

Are the movements of spirituality in west today any different from the
movements of psychological therapy? There is some value and lot of
hierarchy, money, meaningless jargon.

This is very true. However, psychological therapies, meaning those that adhere to the medical model of psychology, are problem-focused toward symptom relief. This is based in science and seeks to improve 'functioning' and not “the tangible experience of being one with the entire universe.” Research has shown that psychological therapies do what they propose and that is merely improve functioning in the world. Psychology adheres to the world's paradigms while “enlightenment programs' advocate removal. I think there is a big difference between the two and its like comparing apples and oranges.
However, there is no question that psychology does as much damage as these spiritual hucksters which is why I advocate exposure of both. However, many feel that these enlightenment peddlers should somehow be immune to judgment.
At least my licensing requires I adhere to a body of ethics and I would lose my license and livelihood, be strapped with enormous fines and even go to jail, and many do, if i were to engage in unethical practices and in some way harm an individual in my care.
Certainly psychology is a circus all to itself, yet, what protections do the masses have against these spiritual circus clowns?

What say you?
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Are you saying that eastern philosophies are “invaluable” because
they've introduced concepts of awakening?

Yes I am.

But aren't all teachings
simply “egoic movements”?

Yes, they become that very quickly.

And does not western religion have its own
concept of awakening, such as “born again,” “salvation,” “revelation,”
etc?

Words like salvation may have pointed to awakening at one time, but today they mean something else. The western religions' concepts are about the future. Be good now, and your future is guaranteed. This is true of most religions, including eastern religions. However, some small parts of eastern traditions, such as Advaita, Tao, and Zen, are closer to the message of awakening.

However, whether it is Buddha or Jesus, Buddhism or Christianity, salvation or enlightenment, the message quickly gets wrapped up in concepts and hierarchies. Jesus wanted everyone to be Christ, not Christians, and Buddha wanted everyone to be Buddhas, not Buddhists.

This
is very true. However, psychological therapies, meaning those that
adhere to the medical model of psychology, are problem-focused toward
symptom relief.

The egoic movement is the same in spirituality and psychology. When a spiritual tradition becomes well-organized, big enough, licensed, and hierarchical, we call it a religion. Religions promise future salvation; psychology promises symptom-relief.  Psychology is science, and that may give us more confidence; but science makes the basic assumption that reality is objective. Quantum mechanics is cracking this assumption. These assumptions are fine in constrained space so I am not saying Psychology is not valuable. I'm saying institutionally it's no different from religion; it has certain moorings and assumptions and pardigms which will not change easily. Psychology's basis right now is Freud and Jung; how are those theories any different or any more or less solid than Advaita's view of Consciousness, or Tolle's view of consciousness-ego-painbody?

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Yvette,

I feel that your perspective regarding this issue is valuable and you bring up some good points with regard to our perception of money.

Yet, “judging others is beneath us…we're much better that that” generates some questions in me. You seem to be saying that one should not judge the value of a teacher in any way, based on prices charged for the product? Particularly when the product is advertised as ”a real, tangible experience of being One with the entire universe.” In your zeal to terminate 'judgment” altogether, do you feel that people should not be made aware of corruptive practices? Does it make sense to offer an “experience of being One with the entire universe” through the same monetary-value paradigm that promotes severe imbalances and corruption world-wide? Are 'enlightenment programs' immune from being exposed for poor business practices and downright fraud?
Certainly you are correct in that money is not evil, while perspectives and judgments of money can lead to much suffering. To my mind, this suffering through money is as rampant in the spiritual domain as in any other and more so, with regard to the product one is financially contracting to receive. Particularly if this financial contracting is creating corrosive energy.

Just saying…what say you?
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

I think there is a great difference between Judgment and Discernment.  I may discern that this teacher is a swindler and therefore not take the class, but I don't judge this teacher.  I either choose to accept what they are giving or walk away.  I have no need to bash the teacher publicly or privately for what he/she is doing.  I don't judge him/her because I have no basis on which to judge.  I also don't judge people who choose to take the class because they see a value that I do not.

Now if I take the class and someone asks me my opinion, I can share that based on my experiences.  I still can't tell them whether or not to take the class, I can only say what I found when I took the class.  Basically, it is about personal choices.

Discernment is about making choosing based on what is right for me.  Judgment is about deciding that my choices are right for everyone and that you are a fool if you don't believe the same as I do.  Someone may take this class by this supposed fraud and get a huge benefit out of it, transforming their entire life in positive ways.  Who am I to judge?

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

yvette, thank you for this. I read Mike's post yesterday about judging and couldn't put my finger on what I felt was missing. You've helped me fill in the blanks. Thank you!

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Thank you, yvette and Satya. Even Mother Theresa needed money (and substantial, if not downright controversial donations) to keep her hospitals and missionaries running.

Instead of thinking of the price as something fixed, think of it as a
unit of energy.  Does the amount of energy going in (what you pay for
the class), equal what you will get out (knowledge).

I love this. And I think that most, if not all, teachers are willing to work out alternative trades or barters for those who don't have energy in the form of cash. (And those that aren't, well, I'd be skeptical about the true value of their teachings. :)

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Siona,

I'm not sure I get what your pointing to. Mother Teresa needed money to minister to the poor and starving, not for herself. The missionaries and hospitals were not to her self-benefit.

I wonder if Bill Harris and Genpo Roshi can say the same? Have any of you guys ever seen some of those “zen temples”? Whooo! kinda like “minimalist ostentation.”

Nahnni made a good point when she wrote, “The money that one has spent to support these “teachers” might well be better spent on a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen, but yes, it is an individual choice.”

So why do individuals chose not to give more or why not even most of it? I suppose it's the old me-first individual paradigm of giving that we're all victim to in one way or another (I include myself in that indictment). And most spiritual paths fit quite nicely into that paradigm and most egos makes the necessary compromises to its belief system so that it too, can play that finite game.

This might be a bit controversial but could it be that those with a vested interest in teaching enlightenment for cash or to support a particular lifestyle, have a vested interest in rationalizing the continuance of that game?

hmmmm…did I touch off some guilt? oooh boy!!

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

So why do individuals chose not to give more or why not even most of it?

Well, if they choose not to, isn't it also their loss? Who would you rather be: Genpo Roshi or Mother Theresa? ;)

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hi all,

To me money is the great attachment of the modern world.  If it wasn't money, it'd be something different.

Spiritual teachers charging a fee is fine - I know I do - it can get tricky if the teacher charges “too much”.  To see the Dalai Lama will set you back a hefty fee; to see Eckhart Tolle will set you back a nice sum too - but you can get their books and cd's for little money.  If you think you “need” the teacher in person, you pay more…

Yvette, I wouldn't put Bill Gates and Mother Teresa on the same level :-)  Maybe when Bill gives away more than 0.001% of what he's worth…

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Bill Gates gives much more than that, and plans to leave his fortune to charity: Bill Gates pledges to leave his £30billion fortune to charity… rather than his children

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Thanks yvette, I had seen that comment about Bill Gates and thought hmm but didn't take the time as you did to confirm what I had heard about him.

Good to set the record straight.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Anyone arguing that money is not inherently based on inequality, please study basic economics.

Your theory is out of step with pretty much every understanding of any financial system, which depends on “scarce resources.”  eg: there's not enough for everyone.

I begin to wonder, again, if perhaps it's comfortable for people to pretend starving masses they can't see don't exist.

ask somali pirates why they are pirates.  

and, to reiterate, I work for free.  

I then take on other jobs to pay my rent and eat.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Alan,

I have a question:  if you need to take on other jobs, so that you can do your spiritual work for free, how much time do you waste doing non-spiritual work?

Here is my thinking: I usually tell people that I don't have a job, I have a life that is centered around my spiritual practice - and the work I do with others is a significant part of that.  That means that I spend most if not all of my time doing spiritual work; I'm not kidding myself or anyone else in saying that I do this for their benefit - I do it for mine (we all do - you too Alan).  A big part of what I get out of this is the interaction with so many different people and animals and the diverse feedback i get, which I interpret and integrate in an ever-greater sense of self (that's the idea anyway).  Another part I get out of this is money - that i use to live a good life, eat and drink healthy and sustainably, dress my little one, my wife and myself in organic clothing, pay my mortgage and drive my car.

If money was the primary reason for living this life, there'd be a problem.  Refusing all money - in my eyes - would make this all about money, just on a negative perspective, the other side of the coin, so to speak.

Before I started living this part of my life, I was a sr. VP at Amex - making about 5 times what I make now and needing always more - because i was so deeply unhappy in my life.  Now I find I need little, but I have absolutely no problem charging a fee for what I do - I have no attachment to the money, either positively or negatively…

alan Watts once said that money is a measure.  To say there isn't enough money is like a carpenter going to work and saying there aren't enough inches to build a house…it's our perspective that makes money so all-impotant.  Nothing else…no matter what the “experts” say.

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

I don't think the message of Mother Theresa was about money at all, aside from what we can choose to do with it.  I think her message was to see what one little woman can do to ease the crush of hunger and poverty.  I think she was saying that if only we could be so motivated by injustice, we could, in our own corner, affect a profound change on every corner.  She worked with what humanity has abandoned and made invisible.  She used all her resources on their behalf and on behalf of her message.  She did not say, I will show you how I have become, what I have learned, but you will have to pay for my leisure in hearing it. 

Yes, money has energy and within it contains the energy of many of things; of slaves, of overseers, of corporate kingpins, leaders and in contrast shelters, medical and educational volunteers, community gardens, food shelves and so on.  Certainly, no one is decrying the income received by the writing of a book, or the teaching of a healing modality or even the wild-crafting of herbs.  The argument becomes:  when is it enough for ourselves and more for the world?  When will the Eckhart Tolles, the Wayne Dyers, and all the who is and the what for, sell enough books or speak in enough auditoriums to live comfortably and finally go out and see that now there is suffering and now there is something to be done about it.  It may cost a poor man a two week salary to hear the Dali Lama speak, but he knows it is not for His Holiness to live in a crystal castle.  The sages say life is an illusion, Deng Ming-Dao is quoted, yet he then asks: but does that change its' poignancy?  This is what we must ask ourselves, surely?  Is life poignant enough that we can look beyond the measure of our individual self sometimes?

But we all choose.  That, in the final analysis, makes the difference in things or not.

Just my thoughts~

Peace~

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

okay christine, i'll bite! but can we agree on context? the context of this thread specifically? sure, all kinds of people have been helped by all kinds of philosophies! the new atheists have many converts and there is probably a person or two on the planet that thinks porn enlightened them<<women can do that! why wasn't that written in any of the world's holy books……

so, how about a little deconstruction? as i understand it the 2 foundational concepts of eastern philosophy are the dharma and karma. wonderful spiritual hypothesis, imo, but no more provable than the hypothesis that jesus is god….

let's break it down with some exp.- let's use stalin's victims to start. this spiritual hypothesis asserts that these millions of souls chose to experience this murder to balance out some kind of karmic equation. fine, but who knows…and of course there were and are the untouchables that have been doomed for millennia and told that their karmic fate is even lower life forms in coming incarnations…and let's not forget about the warrior caste that is on a real karmic role! they've figured out how to balance millions of souls karma by the push of one button now! amazing…………

now the dharma doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong on this planet as far as ecology and population goes because it keeps sending billions of more souls here at a time when al gore and the peak oil doomers say we need these population explosions by the dharma like a hole in the head!

FRANS….




 Alan,

I have a question:  if you need to take on other jobs, so that you can do your spiritual work for free, how much time do you waste doing non-spiritual work?while i'm on a rant about eastern philosophy i can see i'm going to have to give frans a lesson!:) you may have heard of one of the loftier concepts being nonduality! spiritual? non-spiritual? please, even osho taught that when i have a mindful smoke, i'm doing yoga!are you suggesting that  2-3 billion hard working religious conservatives on this planet are unspiritual?i think alan has a valid point given the history of the gong show that has been the spiritual marketplace……get a job and teach for free is what i say!…….

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

hi andrew
interesting post.
and there is probably a person or two on the planet that thinks porn enlightened them<<women can do that! why wasn't that written in any of the world's holy books……
well - actually…
i don't know what porn is to you (and i don't want to know) but there is a significant amount of sexual stuff here and there in buddhism and various yogas…

but - to stay on topic, in context to the thread - well i don't think i will be able to do that too well…
so the concept of karma … and the concept of dharma… seems to be bothersome… in regard to what we collectively experience.  yeah… my brother got cancer and died a few years ago… karma?  sheesh… i don't know. 
he died at 51.  some people die at 22.  some people die at 94.
my brother didn't want to die.  i can't think of too many people who do… but that's what we do… we die.
frankly - i don't think about karma much at all - and i don't think it is the sort of thing that is set in stone…  i think the IDEA of karma is used as an intellectual assumption or excuse to keep people at a particular “station” (as in the untouchables) or as a spiritual sounding catch-all for all experiences that are judged as good or bad …  but i think the working of karma has more to do with the aspects of internal life, rather than external life - that is - what sort of  conditionings and mental attachments will accompany the stream of consciousness upon death… fear?  loathing?  anger?  depression?  contentment, gratitude? aggression? apathy?  … 
as far as the idea of karmic “cause and effect” and the karmic equation you refer to - well - i don't know what your source for this hypothesis is but- i have no idea how that could possibly work… can't conceptually go there myself.  any notion of a person suffering because he/she took advantage in a previous life or time… well - i don't think it works like that… i think such explanations are overly simplistic and create great misunderstanding… rather i think that people may suffer karmically because they are conditioned to suffer.  if they are conditioned to be angry - then they will be angry… conditioned to be jealous, then they will be jealous… i think that is a more realistic notion of karma.

and dharma… if you are talking about the hindu term - as the righteous path or duty of the individual during embodied life… or if you are talking about the term as it relates to “higher teachings” of “the ultimate reality” … or the “teachings of the buddha”  … in whatever context you are speaking  i just can't see how any of these ideas of dharma are related to the “population explosion”.  i could speak a little of what one of my teachers taught in regard to the increasing population - and i'll do that if you want - but none of these IDEAS of dharma are sending more people to earth… and none of these IDEAS of dharma create a poluted world… If you are speaking about the dharma of “ultimate reality” - all that means is that all possibilities are encompassed within the dharma… including the possibility that we have collectively created - people, polution and all…

i think a very different possibility would have arisen if the individuals over the last millenia or so were able to see how their internal world (attachment, aggression, fear of death) has shaped both their current internal temperament and the overall collective external reality….  that is what i meant in my earlier post by a deep understanding of the philosophies rather than referring to a mental collection of concepts about dharma and karma.

clear as mud.
that was fun… not at all in context to the original post…
but i enjoyed it.
thanks.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

hi christine, yes, i was referring to dharma as a synonym for god, or the cosmic intelligence/teleology behind the universe and specifically this planet as it relates to current ecological hypothesis.

the bhagadva gita is a treatise on the concept of soul if nothing else. i'm borrowing my speculations from it's literal assertions…….

oh my, the yoga sutras on sex….how could that have slipped by me.lol

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

hmm.  interesting… and i just gave away my copy of the bhagavad gita…  prematurely - time to read it again….
i have a large volume by a dude named Longchenpa who lived some centuries ago - it contains a lengthy treatise on karma (and everything else related to consciousness)… it is almost impossible to read in english (awkward language) …
but now that i am curious - i'll look at that again.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Andrew,

Sorry to burst your bubble, buddy…but - non duality isn't ever a concept; it's nothing you can discuss or even think about.

What i was getting at earlier is that a negative attachment to money is exactly the same as a positive attachment to money - I want or I don't want; it's all the same..

You're not being very consistent either when you say that 2-3 billion religious people are spiritual, but somehow those in the spiritual marketplace aren't?

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

hey frans, can you please post the part where i said that people in the spiritual marketplace are not spiritual……..

how did you even write the first sentence if you couldn't even think about it? even to say nonduality one has to think about……….and by the way, there has been thousands of years of sages writing about nonduality…how did they do that if they never thought about it….

What i was getting at earlier is that a negative attachment to money is exactly the same as a positive attachment to money - I want or I don't want; it's all the same..


now here i tend to agree with you, but to me, this is almost a side issue as far as the topic of this thread goes…….


you know though, don't take my criticism too personally, your not the first or last to make a living off the ideas of spirituality……i certainly wouldn't presume to judge those who do, i just have my preference…………

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Yo Frans!

Sorry to burst your bubble, buddy…but - non duality isn't ever a concept; it's nothing you can discuss or even think about.

Reeeeaaaaly? If that's true, then why did you just define it as:

Sorry to burst your bubble, buddy…but - non duality isn't ever a concept; it's nothing you can discuss or even think about.

Whatup with that?
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Andrew,

No offense taken - I tend not to take things personally, and if something does touch me personally it just shows there's some form of judgment/attachment there, right :-)

I was referring to the gong show you mentioned, as if that was somehow inferior/less deserving than other's endeavours - but maybe that's just my perception.

I'm not writing about non-duality - it's impossible; this reference itself is to a word that stands for something completely different from…which is by the way very similar to what the sages have been saying :-)

You're of course entitled to your preferences and I have nothing at all against those who work for free - in fact I have great admiration for them.  Just as long as they don't make an identity out of “working for free” - 'cause then it aint for free at all…

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

your a good sport frans! hey, the canucks just took 4 straight…..

let me clarify that the issue of money is different than the issue of selling spirituality….i basically agree with your take on money, it's neutral, but as alan has pointed out the system has geared money to breed inequality. that's a fact, but this could be fairly easily remedied, imo……………

the issue of selling spirituality is one of credibility. your dealing with a field of inquiry that is by it's very nature slippery, obscure, invisible, translucent, whatever word you want to describe spirituality here-__________.

it's this very intangible, esoteric nature that makes it near impossible to verify, and therefore claims made by spiritual teachers don't get the critical analysis that they so richly deserve. every scientific theory gets scrutinized, but spiritual teachers seem to get a free pass even when the claims they make are complete hubris. this needs to change, imo…..

there should be some protocols put into place for the spiritual teacher profession…………….

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

you know, finding a yoga master, a tai chi master, a kung fu master, etc. these are all tangible experiences that one can verify fairly easily. is my kung fu master really a master? fight him and find out! a yoga master can perform all the asanas for you and you'll be quite convinced that he's a master. but, the issue here seems to me to be one of ontology and speculative metaphysics. 
reality is something we just havn't figured out yet collectively and to sell metaphysics as fact is disingenuous to me. if a spiritual teacher wants to sell metaphysics as a personal opinion, i might consider that. but selling speculative metaphysics as fact is folly, imo………..

i hope this helps clarify my position on this one…….

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Yes guys, 
unfortunately I do spend a lot of time and energy on avoidable issues of survival.  It's too bad.  Indeed, “non-spiritual” activities, such as trying to hustle up money, take up a good portion of my time.  Ideally, yes, I'd instantly just have everything I really needed, and could devote all my energies to the cause.  This has not yet been the case.

Well, what's a guy to do?  Frankly, the kind of work I do doesn't include promises of instant gratification.  Marketing schemes also are a bit of a problem.  Creating a peppy slogan out of my work is an activity that, frankly, scares the pants off of me.  

Now, if some nice people were to offer me help, I'd be inclined to think about it.  but I share many people's trepidation about the methods of selling spiritual work in the current marketplace.  I think the methods necessary, by my view, go against many of the principles that even most of the courses' original philosophies were about– buddhism, for example, especially zen buddhism, which is based partly in taoism, has a lot to say about the student-teacher dynamic that would suggest a zippy 3 day seminar making promises about your spiritual advancement without knowing you or your interest in the process of advancement is highly suspect.  

Now, that's just my view.  It's less about taking help– all the old masters I respect took help, such as rice in bowls– it's about selling something.  There's a difference… the difference is why I've worked other jobs.

Also– to be honest– I feel like when I enter these circles of seekers, (perhaps because I haven't found circles of black or other ethnicity-seekers, I can't say) they don't take me very seriously.  One guy even told me, after I told him something: “that would be a very high-minded perspective, if one could have it.”  or something like that.  I was telling him what I know to be true.  He was basically saying: 'right, well, if you were that spiritually advanced, you'd be incredibly advanced.'  

…????

Honestly, how many of you would take spiritual guidance from what appeared to be a 20 year old black man with an afro?   

I know, maybe if I swaddled myself in togas or loincloths.  : )

But… that would be artifice.  

Can one sell spirituality without selling out?  I have found it, for me, not the clearest path.  So I decided to walk a different one.  If I receive for what I do, ok: but receiving is not my goal, and I will not chase receiving.

I don't say my decision is the only one.  But I do say, people are making it.  I am not the only one I know who has.  

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

hi Alan

who says non-spiritual activities have to be non-spiritual?
and who is not taking you seriously?
and is it important that others take you seriously - that your spiritual gifts are seen?

i don't know how important that is.
i have some gifts - but people where i live don't know it.
they see a good natured middle aged fat white lady… and no one asks advice from someone heavy and plain… not around here anyway.
would you think of asking someone like me for spiritual guidance?
probably not… i wouldn't even register on the radar likely.
no one except for a very very few know anything about my “internal life”.

but so what?

i work in a “non-spiritual” job… yet to me there is nothing that is not spiritual… and all i have to do is be “authentic” .  there is always some giving and some receiving all day long, an opportunity to do some simple thing really well … and i get paid money … which is very useful in my life right now. 

right now, just to be part of the dance - it is enough… for me.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hey Andrew,

Yes, there are lots of frauds out there, but they serve a purpose too…I've seen a few “The Secret” fans turn deeper into themselves and start asking questions they might never have asked without seeing that p.o.c. (peace of crap).  We're quick to judge, based on our own expectations.  A litmus test for spiritual teachers :-)  Let me know when you come up with one that's foolproof - we could market it together and get lots of money (and chicks and all!).

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Yo Yo Frans!

Yes, there are lots of frauds out there, but they serve a purpose too

Reeeeaaaaly! So it's ok if I cheat my momma out of her retirement money, since “that serves a purpose too”? Cause maybe she'll “turn deeper” into herself? Or is there some “fraud' that's good and some that's bad?

hmmm….what are we actually advocating here?
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hey Alan,

Maybe you're trying too hard?  For me personally all that was necessary was my own commitment to live more authentically and let go of attachment and judgment (an ongoing thing).  From there, I started doing things that felt good to me and in 7 years my life has turned into something very different.  I don't think it's what you look like; it's about how genuine you are - on some level people respond to that.  Anyway, that's been my experience.

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Christine,

I kinda echo-ed your response to Alan - didn't see your post :-)

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

MikeS,

I'm not advocating anything; simply stating a fact…

You know the story of the Chinese farmer, who finds a horse on his fields?

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Frans, the story of the Chinese farmer, like this version?

Or one of these?

Somehow, this always keeps coming up for me. Thanks for the reminder.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

I guess what I'm saying is that the only thing we can control is our own actions.  Calling others' action “wrong” is just…well, wrong hahaa!!!!

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

MikeS,

I answered that question earlier:

“I'm not writing about non-duality - it's impossible; this reference
itself is to a word that stands for something completely different
from…which is by the way very similar to what the sages have been
saying :-)”

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Frans,

What do you mean “impossible”? The fact that “the sages have been saying,” and alot of 'em wrote it down too, must mean it certainly is possible :-)

Dude what kinda of enlightenment program you running up there if you're not saying what the sages said?! How's anybody gonna know, if somebody ain't telling 'em?

Who told you?
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hey Nicole,

I was referring to #1, but the others are all similar, really.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Karmarider,

Science, religion, psychology - they all address the story.  Awakening is going beyond the story…

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Actually, it goes “beyond the story,” but includes it as well….

Can you do both?

mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hey MikeS,

Of course - same thing again: include and transcend - holonic/holarchy all the way up and down…We'll make an integralite of you yet :-)!

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Frans,

Actually, it's include and transform, since nothing is ever really “transcended.” Evolution seems likely on the outside, but its 'really' just an illusion.
Integralista I can never be. Too much disorganized complexity.

Sorry Dude!
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Arpita, you are one with the universe in all ways, whether you know it or not (I feel you do.)  

Being one with the universe, when you speak, I try to listen as best as I can, if I listen at all.  It's that way with everyone I come across.  I agree with you, most people seem not to feel that way about each other, to this world's harm.

But your point is very well taken, and in no way was I griping about race. I was talking more about judging by appearances, which you picked up on, I think.  I'm basically saying the flashy slogans of 'enlightenment' sellers are based on the same appearances, and make it easy for people who judge on appearances to feel like they can trust someone.  ”if they have a website, this must be legit.”  I don't have a website.  maybe that's a problem too.  : )

Also, you'll notice I put “non-spiritual” activities in quotations, because I was reflecting another's use of the term.  Using the term someone used before I did was easier than… getting into the issue of separating spiritual endeavors from everyday life, which we agree is not a good distinction to make, at least it isn't for us.  

So you and I make similar choices.  Please note my post was in response to a question… “wouldn't I be better off getting money for what I do than taking other jobs?”  My answer, basically, is it's not about the money and I don't want to make it about the money.  we agree!

Frans, 

no, I'm not trying too hard.  in fact, I'm not trying at all.  When people aren't really hearing what I say, which happens a lot, I resume my smile, and stop talking.

: )

Also, did you assume that because some don't hear what I'm saying, I'm saying none hear what I'm saying?  Did you think I was complaining?  A troubling assumption, from my perspective.  In that, it is the kind that perhaps hurts our ability to communicate and hear each other.   My work is going well.  I'm content.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Mike, Balder mentioned this blog by Schalk that seemed perfect here, have a look: schalk/blog/get-rich-and-save-kosmos

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hahaaa!

Nicole, that's a wonderful piece of writing!

Thanks for the link.
mikeS

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Nicole,

I am still smiling - thanks!

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Hey MikeS,

That's the only way anybody is going to know - by realizing nobody can tell.

 Kinda sounds like a hoax, doesn't it :-)  Come to my workshop and pay me $$$$$$$ so that I can not tell you and not show you and not make you see, hehe.

Frans

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)

Ok, so there is the danger that spirituality can take advantage of people. This is not surprising. Spirituality offers tenuous and “beautiful” concepts, a bright future, a better more-improved “you” who will get all kinds of goodies in the future. It's not measurable, and if you're not not feeling the Oneness then you're the one doing something wrong. Many people who turn to spirituality are in pain, and therefore vulnerable. So, yes it's a pretty good setup, if you're inclined to defraud, and I'm sure some are. Some may even fall into unwittingly, pushed by the tide of blind devotion.

But awakening is much simpler than the complicated movements of spirituality. Awakening is much simpler than the rituals and hierarchies of religion. Awakening is much simpler than intellectual gymnastics of ego deconstruction or debating the finiteness of life games.

Awakening is just being present. It's fully experiencing the only experience that we can possibly have. It is here, now, utterly simple, and utterly ordinary–the extraordinary is contained the oridinary, when we are still enough to look.

That's it. There is no reason to pay anyone, to go anywhere, to do anything. It's always here and now. The only thing we can do wrong is to allow the mind to settle on a fixed idea, but even this is not a permanent obstacle.

Re: Finally Instant "Enlightenment" Can Be Yours! (for $597)