Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Seems that many “spiritual” people don't like negativity.

There seems to be an unspoken rule in many spiritual circles (and pods) that if you don't have something 'positive' to say, then shut up. This often leads me to wonder if spirituality is nothing more than an egoic defense mechanism.

Is spirituality just an attempt to deny your impending death or deny the suffering that will attend you until death? Is spirituality nothing more than a mechanism to deny existential truth?

Freud discovered and categorized numerous ego mechanisms for which to perpetuate avoidance. “Reaction Formation” is an interesting mechanism:

Converting unconscious wishes or impulses that are perceived to be
dangerous into their opposites; behavior that is completely the
opposite of what one really wants or feels; taking the opposite belief
because the true belief causes anxiety. This defense can work
effectively for coping in the short term, but will eventually break
down. WIKI

Here is a little comedic peace by The Onion, ”Nation Ready To Be Lied To About The Economy Again” that highlights this mechanism quite well. Yet, although this is meant to be funny, there is a deep grain of truth to it.

In the coming years as more of us become victim to a collapsing economy, many will become deeply entrenched in spiritual and religious ideologies and practices as a means of easing our pain.

Yet, if religion and spirituality are nothing more than a maladaptive coping mechanism, which seeks to dissociate from and deny existential truth, could it serve to disengage from the world and others rather than it's proposed role of increasing engagement?

Maybe atheists are in a better position to save us, or at least initiate lasting change, than those who claim to be spiritual or religious?

Just saying, what say you?
mikeS

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Maybe some atheists are in a better position to initiate last change. Maybe some spiritual or religion people are. 

I know spiritual and religious people who are very open to discussing and dealing with pain and suffering, and atheists who are afraid of it. 

In this discussion, I just wrote:


“It seems that there must be healthy models of faith, of atheism, of agnosticism. It's a matter of working out what makes most sense to us, not just intellectually but on an intuitive level.”



There are always philosophies of life that make more or less sense to us, so it can be tempting to write off as useless those that make the least sense. But perhaps that's rather ego-driven? Why do “I” happen to have the best answers?


What do you think?

Nicole

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Nicole,

“It
seems that there must be healthy models of faith, of atheism, of
agnosticism. It's a matter of working out what makes most sense to us,
not just intellectually but on an intuitive level.”

Yes, that makes sense. However, what would be a “healthy model”?

Could it be any model that does not alienate? Or maybe a model that invites collective collaboration, thereby making all other models subsequent and, thus, subordinate to that goal? (imagine that!).

Seems this is what “integral” had in mind, but unfortunately it has become as alienating as any other previous model. Righteousness rules over collaboration.

Yet, I suppose we do not really value collaboration, so any model of an afterlife would not incorporate a collaborative engagement in life. Collective collaboration seems primarily an after thought.

I mean let's face it, why would God want us all to collaborate? Ha!
mikeS

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

why not? :) it could be fun, Mike! Just think of what a pleasant change it would make for God - and for all of us,

Cheers,

Nicole

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Hi Mike~

Why do “I” happen to have the best answers?

Perhaps because the “I” is the mirror of one's all knowing, all seeing Deity?  And one who is very concerned about our daily affairs and gives us vast insight into the workings of the mysterious universe, which happens to actually be the sum total of our own back yard.  And some get very upset when the neighbor's cat comes walking across the freshly mowed lawn, especially if it is a neighbor we don't particularly like.  Maybe he's got a bad attitude and a pink flamingo in his yard.  Could be anything.  John Taylor Gatto has theorized it as being a state of manufactured cognitive dysfunction thats method is one of the cheerful reward system.

Is spirituality nothing more than a mechanism to deny existential truth?

My sister had a deep existential moment at a baseball game while sitting in the bleachers about 10 years ago.  It was so intense, in fact, that it changed the course of her life.  She is now the most absolutely free person I have ever known.  Her life became one big pear tree from which she plucks at whim.  I've never seen the effects of an actual Eureka! moment before.  All the veneer seemed to strip from life and all its' accompanying baggage.  Thing is, her life wasn't bad to begin with, but it became this state of psychological freedom that one can only stand in astonishment of. 

This often leads me to wonder if spirituality is nothing more than an egoic defense mechanism.

It has to be, at least to some extent.  The joy and the sorrow of living is of equal measure.  To deny this, is to deny one's own, and another's, humanity.

You've got to read this.  Granted, it is written primarily from a politico-social point of view, but you can clearly see the gist of a trickle down theory.  I cannot remember the person who said that political correctness will be the downfall of western civilization, but it was probably someone a lot like George Galloway after having ripped Senator Norm Coleman to shreds in a public hearing that Galloway saw for what it really was.

Peace~

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

i think that spirituality can be a “bypass” mechanism in order to avoid difficulties, conflict, death etc… for some.
and i think that atheism, as another belief system, can do the same.  i saw this in my own family.

and in the expression of “negativitiy” - that could mean many things.
the direct expression of “my” version of truth… cutting through polite love and light veneer of bypassing perhaps…
or perhaps such expression is simply yet another egoic tendancy for the individual to be seen  - regardless of others… a kind of power play.

mmm… likely for most of us, it's a mixed bag of motives when we speak something that may be regarded by some as “negative”.

as far as the possibility of atheists being those who may initiate lasting change… i doubt it.  but my doubting is based on my personal experience with atheists… who i find to be more dogmatic and limited in their approach to life than most… but then i only know the atheists that i know… which is not very many compared to all the people who label themselves in that way.

i found that piece that Nahnni linked to interesting.  Along with the discussion on political correctness, it brought up all sorts of interesting ideas, some of which we have touched on in other threads - the nature of communism … that communal view - and if it is even possible…

basically, as far as the  - nothing nice to say - then shut up - i think that is not applicable here in this particular pod - because i think there is an agreement that we can be direct with each other … but, where that agreement is not made, and other strong agreements about belief are integrated in with the idea of selfhood - then i don't think it serves much purpose to create hurt….
and relating, more by action, and by seeing the qualities of the individual that are independant of the thoughts and ideas - then there can be community (communing) in that way… and through a building a trust, there can be, perhaps a deeper opening with each other.

time for work.

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Hi Christine and Nahnni,

Always so much good food for thought in your posts.

I think you touched on something important - dogmatism - this can be a major barrier to depth of relating to others and the world, and it is not limited to spiritual or religious people. Some of the most dogmatic people I know are atheists. Just as mystics of different spiritual backgrounds have so much in common, so do people who are not open to other ways of perceiving or believing, who believe we all “must” …. (fill in the blank).

I must go to work soon too! Just a little more Gaia first :)

Nicole

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Nahnni,

My sister had a deep existential moment at a baseball game while
sitting in the bleachers about 10 years ago.  It was so intense, in
fact, that it changed the course of her life.

Yes, I've encountered several others who've had these sort of 'epiphanies' and i myself have experienced several. Most, including myself, had no spiritual ideology for which to interpret the experience. But often this comes later as the ego seeks to rationalize something beyond all rationality. (funny, how after I became involved in spiritual ideologies, the epiphanies subsided)

The joy and the sorrow of living is of equal measure.  To deny this, is to deny one's own, and another's, humanity.

hmmm…maybe you could explain more of this. Equal measure? That's probably true, but I wonder if that is how life experience is interpreted. I had heard it once described by the 3/3rd rule, where 1/3 of life really sucks, while the second 3rd is just flat effect, nothing special, and only the last 3rd is joyous. So if you can negotiate for first two effectively you'll finally be lifted by the last. This interpretation (I think it was a past client) implies that life is merely to be coped with and negotiated as best one can, because it is the last 3rd that makes life worth living. However, some have no last 3rd and then life loses its worth and death becomes the 'promise' of a final 3rd.

I looked over the link and bookmarked it since it appears interesting. Been a little short of time lately.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Hi Mike~

Most…had no spiritual ideology for which to interpret the experience.

She was always one to question, and studied Comparative Religion at university as part of an ongoing quest that seems to have been a part of her nature since the earliest days.  I know she often struggled with the expectation of religious ideology v. the realities of living.  Then, she came to an epiphany on that bleacher that it meant nothing.  None of it meant nothing.  She is neither without sentiment nor void of sentiment now.  One might even say, she is serene.  It is very interesting.  Maybe something in the roar of the crowd clicked something, I don't know.

The joy and the sorrow of living is of equal measure.  To deny this, is to deny one's own, and another's, humanity.

What I mean by this is simply that sorrow and joy exist for us all, equally.  Certainly, some have a more circumstantial ease or unease, but we all grieve, we all feel affections.  You are right, though, it is a matter of perspective.  I think it is healthy to retain a balance of positivity, and yet, I've seen too many want to deny suffering with the veneer of “be positive”  both in themselves and more disturbingly, in the experience of others.

Peace :)

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

“Yes, I've encountered several others who've had these sort of 'epiphanies' and i myself have experienced several. Most, including myself, had no spiritual ideology for which to interpret the experience. But often this comes later as the ego seeks to rationalize something beyond all rationality. (funny, how after I became involved in spiritual ideologies, the epiphanies subsided)”
 
Wow!
 
I had one several years ago, for some I will call it an “epiphany” and to others I call it something else. Nonetheless, it was amazing! The weird thing is or was I had no concrete beliefs that anchored me down at the time in order to understand it so it became insanely frightful and insanely wonderful all at once. It totally messed my head up but in real good way or so I think, other than losing all memory.
 
What was entirely strange was I cocooned myself in my bedroom with every book I could find to attempt to understand what happened to me. I sincerely concluded insanity, as did others and hoped it was because the possibilities of anything else overwhelmed my every being.
 
So I read everything I could get my hands on and than several days later in the 24/7 blitz of reading walked out and still found no anchor to tie on even as desperate as I was to find one. This may have been the best I could have done, read a little of this and that…not ONE ideology…! I am very, very appreciative of this perspective mike. While it is very reactionary in the moment here for me but suddenly this makes some sense.
 
That is when I stopped reading, seriously! Coming here was enough to mess my head up again but also allowed me to learn a little more, slowly at another pace. I was much, much concerned that I was going to interpret it all via my own Native culture and had to reject everything at the time what I had learned and was raised with. That is not an easy task in the midst of a breakdown or I called it a breakUP!
 
Today…well…I am just fricken happy it happened, I don’t think I am that concerned about what “it” was and have now desired only recently to leave it at that. Okay…well…yes…I do wonder about…regularly…but in such a different way…I am no longer scared of it or feel compelled to worry about others thoughts on it.
 
Perhaps one day I will go back and for now can only say I will never, ever forget it. The more I desire to learn or understand “it” the less I hold the beauty in my own epiphany and that seems a little silly to do even if it was temporary insanity! If it was temporary insanity than I totally recommend it, it was fricken beautiful!

 
I know totally off topic…
 
I am not even sure how much I want to know the answer right now…but can one make up their own epiphany? I don't know if I ever thought that until right now! Can we stretch it out that far? I swear I wasn’t looking for one, I didn’t know what an epiphany was! I am just not that sure how much I want to think that I made up my own epiphany…that would be desperate! 

No? 

I didn’t feel desperate or maybe I was…aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh…………
 
Thanks for some new thoughts anyway…I think I am talking outloud and nothing more…AGAIN…

so much for just leaving it alone!

The power is flickering, I am in a Thunder storm…better get going while I can!

 
Denim

Re: Nothing Nice to Say? Then Shutup!

Yo Denim,

I am just not that sure how much I want to think that I made up my own epiphany…that would be desperate! 

hmmm…probably not “made up my own epiphany” but maybe unconsciously cultivated the ground from which it arose? Maybe consciously?

Can we prepare for a bolt of insight from a strange and unusual perspective, without determining what the perspective will actually be?  Can we prepare for the “surprise” of that, without knowing how we will be surprised, just certain of surprise itself? Does it require emptying the vessel of all content, before the new content can enter in? Does that mean we need to trash every belief we hold real or true? (maybe that would compare with the “dark night of the soul”?)

Wouldn't that be cool to have a pod cultivated specifically in order to facilitate epiphanies or “awakenings”? hmmm…can't be anybody in charge though. Probably not even Gaia. I suppose alot of mutual “touching” would need to occur, in which centers connect with centers.

Sorry went off on a tangent there…

Actually, Denim, I do believe that we do create or generate our own epiphanies or awakenings, but, not that I have any explanation as to how we do that and, of course, to explain it (as many have tried) would terminate the possibility. Ha!

Thanks,
mikeS