"The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Here is a nice little article with video addressing the opinions of a Howard Davidowitz

“The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're not Petrified, You're Not Paying Attention”

I've read Davidowitz's articles previously and he has a good grasp of the general state of things. However, he is an animated and articulate presenter so I'd watch the video for it's entertainment value.

I don't see many pods addressing the current economic collapse and the increasing degree of suffering we will soon ALL be facing. This only supports my suspicion of the failure of spirituality to fully engage with, and effectively address, the dark side of human existence. Traditional spiritual paths are an escape and not an engagement and as long as the ego is engaged in it's path of individual transcendence, the rest be damned. I have been hoping Giai will begin to show itself as blazing a new postmodern spirituality that does not seek to exclude undesirable aspects of the whole.

Alas, this does not seem its purpose.

Nevertheless, the video is interesting for those who wish not to maintain denial over the current course of our mutual existence.

thanks,
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hi Mike,

I think “petrified” is the operative word - bad news on this scale has a paralysing effect, so in order to continue functioning, we tend to put it aside so we can go on with our lives.

It seems useless to me to spend a lot of time and energy over matters we cannot control. 

What do you think?

Nicole

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Nicole,

“Petrified” is obviously pejorative and meant to attract attention.

But, I'm not so certain that it has a “paralyzing effect,” however.

Are you saying that denial is beneficial? And what do you mean by “continue
functioning”?

It seems clear to me that our collective functioning will be significantly altered in the very near future. There is no doubt in my mind that many, if not all of us, are about to have our way of life summarily stripped from us and many, if not all, will suffer through that drastic change in some way.

Yet, could this break us from our complacent self-absorption? Are we heading toward a great equalizing movement?

I don't feel it is a matter of no control. I believe we gave up control, but soon we'll be compelled to take it back.

Actually, I tend to look forward to the change and look to the signs of where we might be headed. Once we bust through the rings of fire, what will it be like when we get to the center?

Just wondering…
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hi Mike,

People can become so overwhelmed by fear that they stop functioning, in an extreme case. As a lesser effect, worrying excessively about our impending doom can drain energy and take us away from what we need and want to do in the present.

In what sense do we have control over macro economic change?

I can be responsible about my own spending and encourage those around me. Will that have an effect?

Puzzled,

Nicole

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

“impending doom” well now i didn't say all that!

However, we will have our way of life drastically altered and I do sense that this time there will be no return to normal. But there will be a new normal that in no way resembles the old.

In what sense do we have control over macro economic change?

Good point. We have surrendered control for so long that I suppose at this time it's a moot point. Why talk about it?

Time to just go down with the ship… gurgle, gurgle
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

: )

Thank you both for this discussion!

In this discussion so far we have

Option 1: ignoring the situation/blind self-absorbtion
Option 2: fear and trembling (If you're not petrified, etc)

I would agree, those are the most obvious two options– at least, from the current human perspective. 

I also agree with both of you, those options don't leave much room for positive change. 

So the question becomes what is option 3?

<3
A

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Well now, Mike, there has to be a point to discussing this, hasn't there? So, since you've brought this up, I was honestly asking where you see the discussion going. What solutions can we work toward?

Or anyone else of course.

As Alan says, Option 1/2 aren't very helpful. (And just because we are not discussing it, doesn't mean we are automatically in option 1.)

Cheers, bro,

Nicole

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hmmm…suffering? Really? If by suffering you mean the inability to go to our favourite restaurant on a saturday night, or buy that widescreen TV we have had our eye on for the past month, or that slinky black dress we just can't live without then I say bring on the suffering! For too long we have been living lives of excess, consuming disgustingly more than we need and it was completely unsustainable.  It think it is high time we collectively learned the difference between what we need and what we want.  We need food, water, shelter, access to education and healthcare and love…without these we truly suffer but anything beyond that is a want.  If what you are saying is that collective humanity is about to start going without these basic needs I think that is terrifying.  However, a large proportion of humans on this planet in places like Africa, South America and large parts of Asia have been doing so for the past few decades but were we terrifed then?  Were we terrified enough to reduce our excess and send what we wanted but didn't need to people who REALLY needed it?  Some of us did, but the vast majority didn't and I guess we are about to taste some of that injustice for ourselves.  It is cause and effect or karma if you will and it is unavoidable.  Humans tend to learn by experience and maybe once we feel what it is like to TRULY suffer we won't be so hesitant to help those less fortunate than ourselves the next time we find ourselves with more than we need.  The world has enough resources to clothe, feed, water and care for every person on this planet if they were distributed more evenly. 

I personally see this potential upheaval as a positive experience.  We will all suffer but this suffering will bring us together and cure the madness we have been so enamoured with for the past 20 years.  The madness of exponential growth on a finite planet.  The madness of houses so large the owners can't even tell you how many rooms they have.  The madness of thousands of iraqi civillians dying so we have enough oil to drive the 2 miles to work in our oversized SUV. 

We live on this planet and are therefore subject to its laws…the cycles of nature…ebbs and flows, up then down…and we have had a MASSIVE up for the past 10 years…what goes up must come down. To every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction. If we can find the courage to help those who are less fortunate than ourselves and let go of things we don't really need, this period of pain might be transformed into period of growth.  I hope so…   

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Sorry for the length of that post.  I have been saving it all up for a long time which is why it comes across as quite forceful.  I do not mean to imply that I consider myself blameless, although it does come accross that way!  We are all in this together and I shoulder the responsibility equally with all of you.  But instead of focusing on all of the problems and the fear I think it would be nice if the media and all of us collectively started focusing on the solution.  What can we learn from all of this and what can we do differently to ensure it never happens again? Or are we resigned to being slaves to a history that must repeat itself time and time again…the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer?    

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hey Cam!

Where've you been?

I resonate with your post and yes, we are all equally indictable as guilty. Yet, the problem may be that until we all suffering equally, I imagine we will continue to deny our mutual guilt and remain detached and dissociated from the suffering of the world in our comfortable little enclaves of apathetic passivity.

I too see this “potential upheaval” as fortuitous. However, from reading the opinions of many university economists, I no longer see it as potential but as imminent, like in the next two years. I actually find myself deeply resenting all the attempts of this current administration to pursue its policy of “quantitative easing” by propping up insolvent banks in fear of “systemic risk.”

As I suggested in the above post, we need to hit bottom (hopefully with as little collateral damage as possible in terms of lives lost).

I initiated a post in the God Pod regarding what is referred to in addiction treatment as the “Jellinek Curve” which illustrates the progressive downward slope of alcoholism and all the attendant symptoms, finally hitting bottom, only to eventually rise upward in a recovery curve and its attendant signs of recovering (I''ll have to find that post and copy/paste it here)

I felt that this addiction/recovery curve was applicable to our current addiction to monetary-values above all other human values. Problem is, as with alcoholism and drug addiction, the individual must hit bottom else the rise upward in recovery becomes delusional and essentially fraudulent, requiring another drop to the bottom. I have worked with clients who have spent years avoiding the bottom so that when they hit it, it was catastrophic and completely annhilated and reformed the entire sense of self.

I suppose when we really hit bottom we'll know it because it may be similar to the current plight of 3rd world undeveloped nations.

But I imagine that even in their wildest imaginings most people would never dream that such a state of affairs could actually materialize.

And they may suffer the most…

Thanks Bro!
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Cam, I just wanted to say how grateful I am for you speaking up like this. What an awesome post.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Nicole,

Actually, the point to the original post was simply increased awareness. However, you interjected that such increased awareness might impede attending to the present, “worrying excessively about our impending doom can drain energy and take us away from what we need and want to do in the present.”

In considering that viewpoint I agree that at this point in time there is little we most likely can do to reverse course and, although you may feel that I was facetious about “going down with the ship,” I was quite serious in fact. We really have little choice but to participate in the coming purge of unsustainable beliefs that we all have failed to redirect or control. Unfortunately some may suffer more and some less, but I imagine we will all suffer to one degree or another.

Therefore, I'm not certain that posting this type of information serves any valuable purpose except increased awareness of an approaching storm. Possibly some will find shelter. Yet, there may be value in discussing our collective recovery after we hit bottom. Things can improve and I'm quite optimistic that they will, but we will all need to crash and most likely crash hard. So, I suppose recognizing what brought us to this point is a valid discussion since the bottom is not that far off and may help us with not repeating the past (yet, to some degree, it seems we are “destined to repeat the past”).

I hope that clears things up a bit,
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hey Alan!

I suppose option 3 is simply riding out the storm in hope of better weather. However, improved conditions may not happen for quite some time, so maybe we will all become excellent 'storm riders' and find that a very satisfying mode of existence.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Here is a very good article that might stimulate this discussion in taking a more constructive direction. This is just one of the many essayists I follow in determining what may actually happen and how we might deal with that eventuality.

When Facing Reality is Not “Negative Thinking,” by Carolyn Baker

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Excellent, excellent article.

I'd like to discuss it in depth, beginning with these questions and answers (I'd like to see the results of the survey do you have a link?):

What we are acting toward? What main outcome might we be looking forward to?What do we relish leaving behind, as collapse begins or as it will be intensified?What do we not want to leave behind unresolved; or, what needs to be done before it's too late to accomplish it?This week, Culture Change published the results of the survey which I strongly encourage everyone to read. Here are a few responses:•·        I look forward to the world breaking up “into small colonies of the saved” (Robert Bly).  I look forward to a simpler, less neurotic life for me and my children.  I would like to think that my children, while their chances of survival may be lower, their chances of happiness will be higher. •·        The central change I would like to see is abandonment of the addictive, frenzied, exploitative American way of life in favor of a tribal, cooperative, relaxed way of life that puts responsibility toward other species and the Earth, as well as other human beings, first.•·        An authentic life that is centered around people and not things. Revival of things spiritual and not material.•·        Learning how to live with each other and within the larger community of our bioregions and ecosystems in a way that is intimate, honest, humble, and humanly and ecologically sustainable.  That includes restoring viable community life, economic and ecological relationships and systems - living systems.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

OK!

What we are acting toward?

We are unconsciously moving closer to the cliff, from which we will fall and those still standing MAY create new value systems.

What main outcome might we be looking forward to?

Severely minimizing monetary-value systems of human worth.

What do we relish leaving behind, as collapse begins or as it will be intensified?

Suffering. Unfortunately, yes, it will be intensified.

What do we not want to leave behind unresolved; or, what needs to be done before it's too late to accomplish it?

The recognition that belief is more important than behavior and that behaviors will not change until beliefs are altered. If you attack the attacker than attack is the value you want instilled.

 I look forward to the world breaking up “into small colonies of the saved” (Robert Bly).

That's absurd. It's the tribes or “colonies of the saved” that got us into this mess in the first place.

I suppose all else is fine by me…
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hello Mike, Alan, Nicole, and Cam!

yes, i agree that radical change is coming and i understand why some would think it should cause paralyzing fear.  we all fear the unknown do we not? those who are unafraid are so only for believing they know what is coming. So, even if the same thing is going to happen to the paralyzed the difference is in thinking we know what to expect.

i agree with Mike and Cam (great post btw Cam!) that whatever change is coming is a necessary 'equalizing' of resources; we can't continue 'living our lives' as we have because our current economic 'crisis' is a result of becoming aware of the unsustainable nature of the way we (as an expression of resource use) have behaved.

but i have to say, 'whoa!' to the idea that we can do nothing to impact this juggernaut of a world.  after all, if my fellow Gaians are prepared to throw up their hands at the futility of the task, to whom then can i turn?  nay! this is not the end of the world, but the beginning.  it is not the time to be paralyzed, daunted or intimidated by the scope of the task, but motivated and inspired by the opportunity our current circumstances present to continue to encourage the world to shape itself into the ideals that i've heard many of you espousing around here for nearly two years now!

Mike: '…option 3 is riding out the storm in hope of better weather,' i hope my sarcasm detector is working properly.  and you Nicole, 'I can be responsible about my own spending and encourage those around me. Will that have an effect?'  sure it will, no need to be puzzled; a drop in the bucket perhaps, but don't be discouraged if you can't wrestle the world into submission. the world and all her citizens are becoming smarter and more aware by the day and it's happening because people like you are engaged and sharing your views. 

case in point, if you've seen the big news networks recently (sorry Nicole) you must have noticed the trend in the last few months to include ever more 'ireports' and 'tweets' from viewers.  this is accidental conscious consumerism, driven by simple human nature to hear what others like us are thinking on any particular subject, but has the potential to quickly move the power to the people, or at least the people with access to a computer.  the mechanism for this change is in our existing democracy; as we type, political groups are combing internet dialogues for the trends in voter opinions that will allow them to win the next election.  the politicians may not like finally being forced to serve the will of the people, but they will have no choice because we have accidentally plugged ourselves into a digital global community organization of ideas and viewpoints.

yes, conscious consumerism, but it's going to go beyond that.  soon, it's going to occur to a political majority that our corporations and governments, as well as individuals, are going to need to be conscious of the effects of their activities and direct them toward sustainability.  no more of this free-will-at-any-cost philosophy.  we are collectively becoming more aware of the results of our actions.  the convergence of these phenomenon are the recipe for a sea change toward sustainability and global thinking. 

bottom line, a growing number of entities - be they individual, corporate, or government - are going to have to inspect their actions, as well as time and resource expenditures, for sustainability and contribution toward the whole…i realize i could go on indefinately about that one so i'll stop now and apologize for my long windedness :D

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

oh joshua, it's always so delightful to hear from you! no need to apologise about mentioning the big news networks :) they are a part of reality after all…

soon, it's going to occur to a political majority that our corporations and governments, as well as individuals, are going to need to be conscious of the effects of their activities and direct them toward sustainability.  no more of this free-will-at-any-cost philosophy.  we are collectively becoming more aware of the results of our actions.  the convergence of these phenomenon are the recipe for a sea change toward sustainability and global thinking. 


I do hope so!


Love,

Nicole

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Yo Joshua!

There you are!

“…whatever change iscoming is a necessary 'equalizing' of resources; we can't continue'living our lives' as we have because our current economic 'crisis' isa result of becoming aware of the unsustainable nature of the way we (as an expression of resource use) have behaved.

Yes, I agree there need be some equalizing of experience. Unfortunately, that awareness may emerge more from an equalization of suffering. I tend to doubt that our  “current economic crisis is a result of becoming aware of the unsustainable nature of the way we have behaved.” Seems more the result of collective unawareness to me and most likely we may refuse to increase awareness until it truly hits home. However, since the ego's chief modus operandi is self-preservation, I wonder if it could ever really change to some form of collective consideration as a primary value system.

but i have to say, 'whoa!' to the idea that we can do nothing to impactthis juggernaut of a world.  after all, if my fellow Gaians areprepared to throw up their hands at the futility of the task, to whomthen can i turn?  nay! this is not the end of the world, but thebeginning.

Wellllllll….. we may need to see an ending before we can initiate a new beginning. I suppose that's just the nature of the ego which is a composite or culmination of past information. The ego-self is conservative by nature and since it defines itself based on the past, it will seek to anchor to the past in many ways. I have a great deal of optimism for the future, however, certain belief systems will need to be purged and unfortunately ego will struggle to maintain what it has become comfortable with 'knowing.'

Mike: '…option 3 is riding out the storm in hope of better weather,' i hope my sarcasm detector is working properly.

It seems your sarcasm detector has been rendered inoperable. As a collective we will need to hit bottom before we can recover. To my mind, there is no other direction but down, at least for some time to come. The problem that I highlighted above, is that governments are struggling to maintain status quo thereby prolonging the inevitable crash to the bottom (economically, which is our chief mode of collective being) that we must experience as a collective. Optimism is valid in the aftermath. However, the bottom is bleak but only from the bleakness may we see clearly the way up.

the politicians may not like finally being forced to serve the will ofthe people, but they will have no choice because we haveaccidentally plugged ourselves into a digital global communityorganization of ideas and viewpoints.

Yes and I see great promise for the future in relation to the technological advancements in communalized communication and more fully engaging together. Unfortunately, this will take some time in catching on and I'm predicting that the bottom we must experience will occur over the next two years (in a gradual state of decline or, at least this is what the university economists predict). Yet, the mediums of communication and sharing will be crucial to our recovery.

soon, it's going to occur to a political majority that our corporationsand governments, as well as individuals, are going to need to beconscious of the effects of their activities and direct them towardsustainability.

Not without a fight my friend. Do you really believe the owners of resources are simply going to extend, rather than contract in upon what they control? Recovery will be a long slog and the controlling powers will resist mightily. However, I share your optimism with regard to the collective transcendence. We will eventually prevail and I'm fairly confident of that fact. But, I doubt we will change without a significant struggle. Keep in mind, we're talking about a revolutionary, even radical, change in belief.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Were I an authority—heaven forbid—I would be sold on the idea that I knew more than others; externally, that is.  Internally, I couldn't know more than others about themselves.  When we speak of collective wisdom—externally—and vote an authority  into office, give him or her a grant of power, should that grant include a duty to the individual?  How could the collective wisdom of the people know what is best for the individual?  Does the wonderful end result of authority justify authority's means?  History gives us a resounding NO.

Nevertheless, Supreme Court Justice Brandeis, a Roosevelt appointee, in describing the “New Deal,” said, “Property is only a means. it has been a frequent error of the Court that they have made the end the means.”

In 1975, I'd had a “bigger than life calling” on America's redistribution scheme through the federal income tax.  The government felt it had the right to revise the Constitution to include government's duty to the the individual, to place its greater good above my right to exist on the fruits of my own labor. In other words, my property was only a means to government's end.

I went to the county law library and read this: The Court's test as to a right is whether the right at issue “is of the very essence of a scheme of ordered liberty” by reason that neither liberty nor justice would exist if such a right were sacrificed.  You can't have a government duty to the individual and at the same time a scheme of order liberty.  You've turned inalienable internal rights, or God-given rights, into the external rights of the state to do for the ostensible greater good of all.

To my way of thinking, inalienable or God-given rights—natural rights—are rights that can't be transerred without the owner's permission.  The United States, through Roosevelt's New Deal law, has done away with natural rights, replaced these with the greater good of all, by the reasoning of the people and their representatives, their representatives buying the vote—robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

The world's protector of freedom, the greatest warrior of all times, according to the will of the American people, has created the greatest fraud in the history of man. The United States is now the most powerful nation on earth.  It's time that you know you've been taken. You can't go against nature's higher law and win. The worst is yet to come.   

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

whoa. hey, have you ever read “1984” by George Orwell? it's about this society controlled by Big Brother. there is no privacy, literally, because they install telescreens (devices to moniter you by sight and sound) into all buildings, and there are hidden microphones; you cannot own a diary, you must conform to B.B., and their value system is so warped. for example, its AWESOME to slaughter women and children, kill the innocent, spy on eachother, betray eachother to the Thought Police (the police that arrest citizens accused of unorthodoxy and rebellious thoughts against the government. you are then sent to be tortured and re-indoctrinated into B.B and his party)..its a DYSTOPIA. and the book is chuck full of irony. for example, there are four Ministries: The Ministry of Love (where they torture you), The Ministry of Truth (where they change and delete history itself, so that no one can know what life was like (when freedom existed) before the sick revolution of B.B.)), The Ministry of Peace (all about war and how many people they can kill), and the Ministry of Plenty, where its all about rations and how much they can take away. No privacy, no freedom…i believe that is were the United States, the so called “protectors of liberty and free will” are going. it's only a matter of time. after all, The Patriot Act was passed, giving our government the right to spy on innocent american citizens who have no record of terrorist activities or any plots or schemes or actions. just ordinary people like you and I. We can kiss our natural rights goodbye if we don't say anything, or do anything.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Suni, I think George Orwell would be sickened but not surprised to see how many elements of Big Brother are already firmly in place not only in Canada and the U.S. but all over the world - for example the surveillance cameras that are everywhere in the U.K.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

i think that he saw this coming long before you and i were even born. he was just trying to warn us. and now that we have these things in place, what are we going to do about it? we as a people won't do anything until something REALLY hits the fan…until a leader steps up from the shadows and leads the people's revolution to once again have privacy and freedom. thats what i think. there is no peaceful resolution in that instance. to arms, i guess.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Suni and Nicole
This reminded me of one of my all time favourite books, Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. Postman contrasts Orwell's view in 1984 with Huxley's in Brave New World.

Here's the Foreword
We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.
But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another - slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.
What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny “failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions”. In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.
This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.
 
The book is great read and will make you want to throw your TV away. Maybe we should be petrified, maybe that's what it'll take to shift us from being too damn comfortable and doing something.

Liz

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

i think that pain and pleasure are the possible fire and ice here. will the world end in fire, or in ice, or in both? i think both authors are right. mankind love power and pleasure. i think that i already want to throw my tv away. who needs the tv when i can google my favorite shows, such as..”House” for example, and watch it on the internet? im happier with my laptop than with a tv. at least i can talk to you fine people with a laptop! i think that the world needs more people like us in it. then the world wouldnt be so messed up and scary. when i feel overwhelmed, i go to the animal world. their world is much better, compared to our society, which has a large focus on violence and sex. at least my dog can lay around and enjoy herself. at least the wolf can howl at night and not worry about a sniper wanting to shoot her. at least the rabbit can nibble and not worry about police brutality. at least the eagle can soar and not worry about being shot out of the sky because it went into a “no fly zone”. id rather be a wolf than a person.. well, id like to be a wolf, but with the mind i have already. wouldnt that be cool, if we could just turn into animals whenever we pleased? lets see big brother find us then. slim chance of that.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

i think that's part of the appeal of the Philip Pullman books, the Golden Compass and the rest of His Dark Materials, that humans have daemons and can have both worlds, human and animal…

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

That's a fantastic commentary, Liz. I think we have both going on, but perhaps we are more heavily weighted on the Brave New World side than the 1984 side. 

But of course, we aren't that aware of what is being concealed from us, are we?

Entertainment hasn't finished “evolving” yet and we already are saturated with TV, the internet and all the rest. 

Just wait till we get the full “feelies” experience with virtual interfaces…

Have you read City of Golden Shadow?


Premise is that hundreds of kids all over the world who are heavy VR users fall into comas, and the main characters have to wade through virtual worlds to find who is behind it…

 

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.
 
Huxley came before the latest technologies, but after technology had replaced the church's authority.  We became possessed by materialism. The latest technology, besides putting us in touch, one on one, is bringing us closer to knowing the how and why of everything.

I'm reminded of the moral story of man, The Scofield Reference Bible. In the introduction, we read: “The Dispensations are distinguished, exhibiting the majestic, progressive order of the divine dealings of God with humanity, 'the increasing purpose' which runs thorugh and links the ages, from the beginning of the life of man to the end in eternity.”

An infinity of beginnings and endings, the latest scientific understanding places us as observers in a dimension of infinite possibility out of which ideas flow, “the idea without form, but giving figure and form to shapeless matter.” Plutarch (40-120 A.D.)

“It has only been with the advent of quantum theory that we have discovered proof that we exist as something more than pieces of matter.  In the developemnt of quantum theory, the observer emerges as a co-equal in the foundry of creation… Matter, objects—a physical domain exists that is governed by immutable laws. But these laws leave open a range of happenings that are left to the selection of the mind.  . . Within the power of our combined will lies the power to do essentially anything.”  Evan Harris Walker in The Physics of Consciousness.  

As a being of Power, Intelligence and Love, and the lord of his own thoughts, man holds the key to every situation, and contains within himself that transforming and regenerative agency by which my make himself what he wills.
James Allen in As a Man Thinketh.
 
We are beginning to see the separation that lies between us externally and our strugging souls.  We've seen how God can become man's device for control.  We've seen how materialism can divert us from reality.  It's difficult to find any room for God.  I can only speak for myself.  Once I departed the establishment and looked within for my answers, when everything should have gone wrong, everything went right.
 
 
 
 

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

hi Mike,

it feels so good to be engaging again.  unfortunate that this opportunity is likely fleeting, but i'll take what i can get ;)

i'm having trouble picking up the gyst of my own words on the first paragraph you cited:  '…our current economic 'crisis' isa result of becoming aware of the unsustainable nature…' (ugh, close enough with this cumbersome text editor) that makes no sense even to me, lol.  i think i was trying to suggest that the current crisis is allowing us (or the forces that chart our collective course) to become aware of the unsustainable nature of the way we have lived, and opening up to the possibility of conscious change.  yes, it's suffering that brings it to the forefront, and yes, i also agree that there will, unfortunately, likely need to be a great more suffering before enough of us are ready to inspect the results of our actions to bring us into the realm of real sustainability. 
 
we may need to see an ending before we can initiate a new beginning. 
 
perhaps, but i tend to think it will be more of a conversion than a death and rebirth, whether our sense is that it will come quickly or slowly i suppose is relative based on our time horizon; a few years would seem like a varitable blink of an eye via some perspectives.

'…option 3 is riding out the storm in hope of better weather,' i hope my sarcasm detector is working properly.

It seems your sarcasm detector has been rendered inoperable
 
i don't know Mike, here you are not just riding out the storm, but engaging in spreading awareness.  you are not just waiting for the bottom, you're propagating the necessary conversations, at least, that's how it seems to me. 

yes, i think it will get worse before it gets better, there will be suffering, the  powers that be will fight tooth and nail, you see them squirming already, but what i'm seeing is that, in time, they won't be able to withstand the organized and aware 'mob' that is assembling.  i guess we'll probably look back in twenty years and see that our expectations were both right, to one degree or another, in how it unfolded.

gotta run for now. sorry for not getting around to commenting on your post inlink; perhaps i'll find some more time later this evening.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

I so wanted to read all these great posts.  But, alas, my work's paperwork calls me and behind that the mortgage….one of the the ways in which we are enslaved.  Am I ready to let it go?  You bet.  The fact is, this culture does not work and has never worked.  For at least 5 to 10,000 years, my humble opinion is that we have been in a dark age of dualistic thinking resulting in empires, reductionistic science, and so on.  What we are experiencing now is a culmination of the consequences of our actions.  Now there are some that believe that this “dark age” as I'm calling it is the result of a few behind the scenes powers that are manipulating the scene.  Hence, the Bush's, Obama's and so on are pawns for powers that are deeper and more devilish.  These same people have enslaved us, in some ways very deviously for they have created sensational media to make folks yearn for Barbie Dolls, Brittany Spears underware, and computerized war games to prepare them for being shallow war mongers going into battle for god know what.  But, we have been willing participants to some degree.  At least us Europeans.  Of course, the Africans were brought to America on slave ships.  The Native Americans were battled, enslaved, and put onto reservations.  The Indians were taken over by the colonizing British Empire over whom “the sun never sat,” which has now become the American Empire and ultimately the Empire of Big Business.  We are in a living death.  As the Kogis (a Native Tribe in South America…research them hearing their wisdom is worth it) say, we are the walking dead.

Can we be resurrected?  Is there a correct path?  Or are there several paths?  Am I giving the answer?  Absolutely not for the answer is in each of your hearts.  What I'm doing is working towards an ecovillage (called Living Earth Ecovillage) which will hopefully receive a grant allowing for homes on 2.5 acres (a European Hectare) which will be farmed using Permaculture with the goal of becoming completely self-sufficient.

Am I doing this to save my own ass?  To some degree.  But, I get more energy in looking into the eyes of a potential member, a 16 year old boy in a school system that's more about control than teaching him about life and I want to give that kid a chance to shine.  I also want his grandchildren to shine.  I think, and I hear this in some of the posts I've scoured through….it's NOT about ME.  It's about US.  Natives often thought about the future results of a decision unto the 7th generation.  So, I look into the eyes of this kid and I see his kids, grandkids and so on.  It's more than about me.  I work in the mental health field.  Many of the case managers I work with are young women with young children or they are still without children but planning on having them.  I look into these eyes and I see the future.  What the sam hell are those kids that are still inside of the women's ovaries going to be born into? 

The question becomes, can we see past ourselves.  Can we see what humanity can become.  If we can't, then I personally think we're history and we need to become history.  Unlike the snottery of the modern day man, I truly do not think we are top dog in the universe.  Indeed, I think Nature Herself is Intelligence…or Wisdom / Sophia.  Hence, in our nudity, which is our Nature, we are Nature which is why Nature has the double meaning of Essence.  What is the Nature of Nichole?  Nichole in Her nudity is Nature is Wisdom.  What is the Nature of my dog?  When I gaze into her doggy eyes, I see no end or no beginning.  There is only Sophia in her.  So, what am I saying?  Nature as Manifest (birds, bees) is Nature as Unmanifest (Essence beyond the creature).  Or as Ramakrishna puts it, “The Unmanifest shines forth as Shakti and Shakti shines forth as the world…..Mother Essence and Mother Energy are simply not two.” (I'm paraphrasing here from Lex Hixon's book, “The Great Swan: Meetings with Ramakrishna, p. 154, if I recall). 

So, in the Unmanifest there is infinite potential.  What ray (intent) do you want to shine into this deep dark womb?  Can you dance with Her?  If we all learn to dance, can we create a new world?  To do so means the death of this one for Kali devours in order to create anew. Again, Ramakrishna, “More than creator and creation, Mother is pure Creativity.  Giving birth to manifest being, she nurses Her child.  Then with playful gleam, She devours him.  The world dissolves upon touching Her white teeth, gaining the realization of Her brilliant and translucent void.” 

Now I would say that this devouring would be followed by a new heaven and earth.  But, to do this, you have to allow yourself to die to what you think you are, and to the ways of this world. Can you let go?  This is what I think we are being asked in this day and age.  We've come to the crisis point.  So, it's shit or get off the pot.  Take care.  Burl       

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

you know, its an amazing feeling to let go of toxic things: toxic emotions, habits, relationships..and to let of of material things. in the summer, i run and just let go of the world, and its just me and my dog running through the woods. its amazing to let go of those toxic things. theres nothing better than true freedom, and having your dog alongside you in said freedom.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Thank you for this, Bensoph,

and for bringing up Natura Sophia as well.   It is the essential, beyond all the platitudes. 

“Her blue body, all that we know”~Alice Walker

Blessings,
Nahnni

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

You're right Suni.  I wrote the following after looking into my dog's eyes.  She's a lab.  In those eyes, I saw it all.  I couldn't get this thing to space correctly.  I wanted terms like “dance” on their own line for emphasis.  Oh, well.  Hope you enjoy.  Burl

Flames

May 6, 2009

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

mine's a mutt: black lab beagle. you know, dogs are the source of so much wonderful inspiration, like your poem for example. for me, its either mental peace or an artform.. its a nice poem! about anyone in particular?

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Anyone in particular, no.  It was sparked in looking into my dog's eyes.  But the pupil of the eye is a meditation for me.  Science goes about gazing deep into space trying to seek black holes, which absorb light.  Some think we live in a black hole.  But we look outside not realizing that which we seek is that which is looking.  It is through the black hole of your eyes, my dear Suni, that these words are conceived.  Meditate on this and you may experience a shift in consciousness where “you” are everywhere and nowhere at the same time.  I've done this before.  Turned out to be somewhat of an “out of body” experience for this body became within Mind and Mind was everywhere.  I sometimes consider the pupil of the eye as the vagina of the Soul in that it absorbs light and conceives a world.  Hence, the Stanzas of Dyzan read, “Darkness radiates light and light drops a solitary ray into the Mother's depths.  The eternal egg thrills through infinitude.”  We are this dance.

Burl 

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

i sure am learning a lot of new things today. i dont know how to meditate. i cant shut my mind off..its like flipping through all the channels on tv, but you cant shut the tv off. you can stop on a channel, but youre gonna move on eventually

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Ok, you've got me.  My passions are aroused.  First of all, even with your noisy head, you're alright, Suni.  Don't worry about the correctness of meditation…or the noisyness of your mind.  I have a noisy head also.  It's just that I go behind the noise and hear the silence beneath the noise…they exist simultaneiously.  Relax with yourself.  In the experience I shared with you regarding the “out of body” experience…It was hilarious for while I went into silence my head was still thinking and the thoughts appeared to be floating in the room which was in my Soul.  In other words, the thoughts were there but I was detached from them and they were floating about in consciousness which was encompassing the entire room.

Hang in there, I'll get worse.

It's sort of like these words on this page.  Your mind attends to the words, but is defining those words in relationship to space.  So, its the intercourse of space and thing that defines thing, ultimately.  The Buddhists say Nirvana is Samsara.  Ramakrishna says the Unmanifest shines forth as the Manifest and the Manifest is simply the display of the Unmanifest.  Infinity is not separate from the finite for otherwise Infinity would have limitations.  Indeed, INfinity is limited for without the Finite She is not known.  Unless a mother and baby separate at birth, they remain as one body and cannot enjoy each other.  Same idea.

So, if you go through and delete all the words, what do you have left?  All that's left is God…Nothing….the silent foundations of our being.

See, Suni, the masses live in a world that is defined as “either / or.”  I live in a world that is “both / and.”  Are you male or female.  The answer is yes.  To speak otherwise would be to deny the space as defining the shape of your fingers.  Emptiness and form dance together.  Hence, these words are both emptiness and form….and their intercourse, or dance, define what they are.  This is where the relational matriarchal consciousness comes into being.  That deeper consciousness, the consciousness of the depths or what psychologists refer mistakingly as “unconscious,” is more conscious than our conscious mind. 

 The space behind these words contain the words and allow their dance to define their form.  But, it is the space that is the foundations.  So, when the Mother swallows this universe, there will be nothing left but She.  But in that case, there is nothing within Her cept She within Herself and hence She can't be known.  This is why the Word arises, or Eros, the Desire to know.  This is the first duality.  Space and Word.  The Infinite and the finite.  But, their separation is illusion, or Maya as the Hindus call it. 

In INfinity, metaphorically reflected in Space, ther e is nothing within cept Infinity within Herself and hence She cannot be known.  To illustrate, the eye cannot behold herself except in a mirror.  This reflects the same idea.  Consciousness cannot see Herself for She is what's looking.  This is also why the infinity symbol is a sideways “8” which appears as if its divided in the middle.  But, if you look at the symbol long enough, it will shift into a more holistic saddle shape, a saddle shaped “0” which is also the shape of the eye, the vulva, the mouth, the number “0” and so on.  Infinity is “0” or no-thing which contains all things in potential.  Lao Tsu in the Tao Te Ching sings this beautifully:

“The Tao gives birth to 1
1 gives birth to 2
2 gives birth to 3
and 3 gives birth to all things.”

Or in Genesis it reads,
“And the Earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.  And God said, “let there be light” and there was light and the light divided the light from the dark.” 

In the Stanzas of Dyzan it reads, “Darkness radiates light and light drops one solitary ray into the mother Deep.  The eternal egg thrills through infinitude, dividing within / without.” 

These are all saying the same thing.  See, most people see this as happening in times past.  Billions of years ago for some, Thousands for others.  I say its happening right now for in Infinity time and space do not exist and what does exist is the eternal or timeless now.  Hence, there is a point in our nudity, which is infinity, in which you and I, complete strangers, are one in the Godhead.  And, who'se behind this conversation?

Whatever you do, though, Suni…don't try to wrap your head around this.  You can't do it.  When you allow it to speak to you, it will do so for it alone knows when you are ready.  This is why I call it Sophia, or Wisdom.

Now, how in the hell does this relate to “the worst is yet to come?”  Simple.  Our lives as the finite are in an intimate dance with the infinite.  In the infinite, there is an infinity of possibilities.  We are the husbands of the Infinite.  We can seed her for She is the container of all potential….again realizing that a baby takes on characteristics of both mom and dad (as such Adam is created male and female in the image of God in Genesis 1:20).  In Shamism and other spiritual practices, Intent is a really big deal for this very reason.  Again, the Unmanifest is infinite potential and we as the Manifest are co creators.  In reflecting the Unmanifest, there are no two butterflys exactly alot.  All things are infinitely varied in the finite world.  So, the finite shouts the infinite and vice versa. 

Ok, I'm off task.  So, we need to work on our intent.  God, I could keep going with this.  But I better let you go.  Hope I didn't totally scare the shit out of you. 

Take care.  Burl

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

no, you didnt scare the shit out of me. im just having trouble wrapping my head around all of this..though you told me not to, but i want to understand that which i do not understand. im very curious by nature, and i just like to learn and understand things that i dont understand or have never been exposed to. in this instance, it is both. how can noise and silence exist in my head at the same time? all i hear is noise, unless i focus on one thing, but still there isnt silence, its just one noise, not many. i daydream all the time, i dream at night. i imagine things before i sleep. im always in lala land XD

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Ok, let's have fun with this.  You say, “how can noise and slience exist in my head at the same time.”  I'm saying, they do.  They exist at the same time just as these black words on this page are existing simultaneously to the white background.  In our conditioning, we are taught to see things. If you were in the orient, you would be more likely to experience space.  This is why Western art is oftentimes filled with things and the Orient often is filled with space.  Furthermore, in our conditioning, we are taught either/or thinking.  The universe is not so much “either/or”.  These black words exist along with the white space behind them…at the same time.  The form of your fingers are as much determined by the space between them as they are by their shape.  Space and form exist simultaneiouly…they are a “both / and” proposition more so than an “either / or”.  This “either / or” mentality is what gets us into trouble.  IN Ken Wilber's language, this is called dualistic thinking.  So, I am male, you are female.  Either I am male or you are female but according to western thinking wwe can't be both at the same time.  Now, the Bible says Adam was created in Adam's image, male and female.  Adam is both at the same time.  Now, me, in my insanity, am going to tell you that this Adam is not distinct from you and me.  WE are created in God's image, male and female.  What the hell! you are saying.  The fact is your words were seminal and initiated the unfolding of these words from my Psyche (a feminine noun..feminine because the generation of thought, a conception, is a feminine process).  So, you, a woman, are a daddy while I a man am a Mommy.  As the Tao Te Ching says, “the entire universe makes love.”  Making love is Creativity…which is why the Gods create us in Their image, male and female.  The Sun makes love to the Earth and we have birds, bees and coconut trees.  Again, male and female, like space and thing, or noise and silence exist as a united whole.  The Buddhists understand your having trouble wrapping your head around all this.  They would say it is because of your Conditioned Mind (I have one of these also…we all do).  Where is your Unconditioned Mind?  Right underneath your conditioned mind just as these words sit atop the white space that forms their background.  In your purest essence, in your nudity, you are I AM.  This is the emptiness of existence which sits as your foundation beyond your conditioned thoughts.        

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

wow. youre like a monk! i could learn a lot from you. yeah…i guess its a good thing that im an open person, so that i can take in more things. i think i would understand this all better if i had someone telling it to my face. i just learn better that way. i can see them speak and move and make gestures. i also like to look at pictures (doesnt mean i like childish picture books. i like me a good 954 page novel with only words, that way i get to use my imagination, even though i tend to warp things) so…im a woman, but i am man too? i am everything and nothing? am i interpreting this wrong? i tend to interpret everything wrong, and make convenient mistakes, especially with art and writing. you know, space is good. clutter isnt always a good thing.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Yes, you are “getting” it, Suni.  It's truly hard to put all this into words because words are dualistic.  I sometimes sound crazy as I talk, but yes, you are in God's image, male and female at the same time.  When Genesis 1:27 speaks of Adam, it speaks of you.  And, yes you are everything and nothing at the same time.  What's wild is that experientially, becoming nothing you know yourself as all.  The best meditation I've seen on this is Deepak Chopra's “Ageless Body, Timeless Mind,” p. 42 (if I recall).  The meditation has you take an imaginary microscope to your finger and allows you to magnify it into infinity.  What you eventually wind up with is a statement such as “soon, you come to where time and space disappear and your hand exist everywhere and nowwhere.”  When Genesis says, “And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep,” and when the Rig Veda says, “Darkness enfolded darkness in the beginning, all this was water (water = undifferentiated life)… then you are being spoken of.  Not the you that you think you are.  The Self….the Cosmic Self manifesting as Suni.   I could keep going with this.  People mistakingly think these verses are written from a point in time.  But, they are not.  They are written with you in all and all in you in mind.  Take care.  Burl       

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

ive done that, like made time and space disappear when i've been daydreaming, or so absorbed into my music i just become part of it. is that meditation? if theres one thing i think that i understand, its that people are both light and dark.  i understand that. the cosmic me? who's that? when i read things, i usually dont think that things were written from a point in time. i apply them to the now, and to the future. thats how i usually look at things. can you be human and animal at the same time? if i could be reincarnated into any animal, i strongly think i would be a wolf or lioness. what do you think you would be? i think that would be cool..to be an animal, yet have your human mind with your animal mind, so that you wouldnt be so helpless and lost in the animal world. do you think theres something more for us after we die? id love to return as an animal and see the world through the animal's eyes. hunt and live as an animal..wouldnt that be cool?

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

: )

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

As in nature, comes the calamity, then hope, then renewal. Symbolic of this idea, on the first date with my wife, Karen, a hike in the mountains near Mt. St. Helens on May 18, 1980, we witnessed the eruption. Three failed marriages and the fourth the best I could ever hope for, there is an amazing story behind this.

In 1973, disgusted with my life and society in general, I had a bigger than life calling, something I felt bigger than my own personal cause. I launched an attack on federal income tax. A legal battle took place for 11 years. I won it by using the law. The IRS resorted lawless tactics. My bigger than life calling caused me to spend 2,000 hours in the country law library. I had a cause. Where there is the will there is the way.

My bigger than life calling sent me to sea for two years on a boat I named Bold Venture. When it was just me and the elements, inexplicable things happened. In a storm in the Bermuda Triangle, I experienced a time warp. Inexplicably, I found myself at my destination. I sailed through breaking seas into the inlet. My three sailing friends with me called it a miracle.

When I met Karen by chance it was like meeting an old friend I’d not seen for a long time. Before my bigger than life calling, if anything could go wrong it did. Since meeting Karen, my life has been getting better and better. If life could be any better than mine now, I don’t know how.

Looking back at my life, when I got out of my self-made rut—had my bigger than life calling—I was resurrected. My life had been like trying to climb a greased pole. No matter how hard I tried, I failed to accomplish my goals. At mid-life, I sensed a change coming. I feared that the worst was yet to come. The change came and I suffered, but I never gave up faith in myself. My dream came true.

My life is an omen. For those who never give up faith in self, the best is yet to come.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

ah, the wrench in the wheel, the fly in the ointment shall have his contrary say once more…….

ALL? ALL? what's this mike? all do not suffer equitably and never have and most likely never will especially if nonduality is reality. it shall always be the best and worst of times simultaneously on this level of existence and there is no ontological divide between the two.  that's just the way it is and the way it will probably always be! which is not to say that suffering couldn't be substantially reduced; it could be, but it's built into the nature of the universe in these dimensions of time and space and nothing most likely will change that fact!

so mike, when have the royal families of the world ever suffered like the untouchables of india, or the orphans of sudan? sure, when bill gates stubs his toe i imagine that their is a little pain; but really, the opulence and perhaps decadence of the elite is not suffering in any meaningful way compared to my previous examples.

in possible fact, there are those that posit that the elite have intentionally set up a world economic system that exploits the weak on purpose! intentional slavery of one form or another. so let's assume a worldwide natural catastrophe that might level the playing field of suffering. an asteroid hit perhaps, a sudden ice age? believe me, the elite are as we speak trying to devise ways that they could survive such a cataclysm and to hell with everyone else. 

so no, one doesn't stage a worldwide economic collapse and suffer from it at the same time. only those that are targeted shall suffer through this one……………

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Yo andrew!

all do not suffer equitably and never have and most likely never willespecially if nonduality is reality. it shall always be the best andworst of times simultaneously on this level of existence and there isno ontological divide between the two.

This level? But then there is a duality after all. But the ontological connection is Being, at least that's what my guru told me who's guru told him and so on and so on.
So best and worst occur simultaneously? Well then, who decides who gets best and who gets worst? Are you a victim of chance?

that's just the way it is and the way it will probably always be!

Ack! don't be such a party pooper!

which is not to say that suffering couldn't be substantially reduced;it could be, but it's built into the nature of the universe in thesedimensions of time and space and nothing most likely will change thatfact!

But we built the universe! When we're all gone, who will be around to perceive it? And if the universe is no longer perceived how can it possibly exist?

so mike, when have the royal families of the world ever suffered likethe untouchables of india, or the orphans of sudan? sure, when billgates stubs his toe i imagine that their is a little pain; but really,the opulence and perhaps decadence of the elite is not suffering in anymeaningful way compared to my previous examples.

Ahh…so you hold to a spectrum of suffering in which certain forms of suffering are different from other forms. But if the content is suffering, who gives a good grief which form it takes? And could we not say the same for any experience? The ego-self demands forms through which to experience, but essentially the experience outside form is already equalized. Suffering is suffering is suffering. Whether I suffer from starvation or loss of a loved one. The content is equal, but the egoic interpretative forms adhere to a spectrum. By the way, a stubbed toe is pain and pain is immediate and ontological while suffering is an ego construction.

so no, one doesn't stage a worldwide economic collapse and suffer fromit at the same time. only those that are targeted shall suffer throughthis one……………

Ha! For crying out loud, andrew, make up your mind! Are you a non-dualist or a conspiracy theorist?!

Dude!!
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

cool! you were in the bermuda triangle? and experienced a time warp? thats really cool joseph. and thats a sweet thing, you and your karen meeting. i've experienced that myself. thats the spirit, the best is yet to come! dwelling on the dark things in life is no way to live. i of all people know this very well. *hugs* youre an amazing person and you lead an amazing life joseph. youre like an adventurer! i cant believe you spent so many hours in a library looking at laws. but you had a goal, and you were hell bent to achieve it. kudos to you for making the world better! i wish teddy roosevelt were here. he would know how to solve all these problems we have. i think he was the best president we've yet had.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

oh come on mike, even in law we've come up with differing degrees of crime and intention. surely it must be so with suffering too? but i think my point was that the bodhisattvic concept of the end of suffering is a mythic fallacy similar to the concept of salvation. myth, myth, myth.

so let's assume that nonduality is fact! so what have we got here? all manner of corruption and violence juxtaposed to beauty and goodness. all manner of predator and no shortage of prey anywhere. this is the way nonduality is experienced; there is no end to one side of the coin, ever! they and we are continually interconnected in an endless play of opposites that are mutually correlated emanating from the endless sea of god/emptiness (choose your own synonym)>everything arises from one source and in these bodies in these dimensions it plays out looking very dualistic in it's nonduality!lol surely this is obvious fact? surely when ken talks about nonduality he does so on a planet where he looks up to see the night sky and bends down to pet his dog?



there is a very subtle narcissism that posits that the universe wouldn't exist if humans were not here to perceive. it…….i think the universe would do just fine without us………….

nonduality is probably the best explanation of reality that i've stumbled upon, and as we experience it the predators are conspiring all the way up and all the way down:) and why shouldn't it be that way? but yes, i believe there are dimensions of existence where  nonduality is experienced in how shall i say? somewhat more comfortable surroundings………………

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

oh come on mike, even in law we've come up with differing degrees of crime and intention. surely it must be so with suffering too?
 
Why must it be? Different degrees of crime are highly arbitrary, subjective and socially constructed.  We have sentencing that is more severe on some occasions for theft of property than harm to life. So if that's the measure, if granny's necklace more valuable than granny? 

What's so fixed about suffering? Pain is real, it's physical, you can measure it, treat it. Suffering? WEll, is suffering a choice? Does it depend on how resistant you are to what's actually happening? And could you choose or learn to react in a different way?
Or are you saying that anything outside the realms of the nondual is by definition a form of suffering..a sort of literal hell on earth?

there is a very subtle narcissism that posits that the universe wouldn't exist if humans were not here to perceive.
If a tree falls in the wood and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound?

If the universe as i experience it, as I have constructed it in my head when I imagined there was a “me” and an “it”, then it is entirely of my own making, and so it ceases to exist when I do.

Liz

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

hi liz, in my thinking there can't be anything outside the realms of the nondual! and that is exactly my point! everything is of the same substance so to speak; and yet, we find ourselves continually experiencing horrendous suffering alongside joyous happiness. and that these experiences are irrevocably linked to choice (free will) which also goes all the way up and all the way down. hypothetically speaking, i think better choices are made in higher dimensions, so the suffering is mitigated somewhat. but sometimes heaven is taken by force………

sorry, i have to respectfully disagree with you and mike on the issues of suffering and the universe which exists independent of human perception. but sure, when we die, this universe becomes nonexistent to us………

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

All I'm saying is, if the world , separate from “me”, is created by me and only ever exists in my awareness………then the world as I know, understand and perceive it is mine. It exists only for me. My reality. It might be like yours, but maybe not, we will never know. We reach enough consensus to function but that's about it.

FRom the outside (of me) of course the world will look exactly the same whether I'm in it or not. It will make very little difference other than to a very few people who have some investment in my being here. So on the one hand, my world is mine, I made it..and on the other “I” am completely insignificant, if I exist at all:-) Fun innit?

Liz

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

yup, lot's of fun liz!

a yes and no to the first part liz. philosophically i see no division between you and source. practically, there is a huge difference! the most you or i or anyone can do in these bodies is co-create and we're quite limited even in that endeavor. we cannot create life in the macro sense! i can't create universes or alfalfa sprouts out of thin air.

more on suffering: if i inadvertently crush an ant under my boot there is much less suffering than if i take out an aka 47 and slaughter a herd of elephants. this doesn't seem all that hard to grok to me…..i'll also add that i think higher stage development may lead to better choices. i think that integral probably does less damage than the hell's angels. hypothetically, higher stage individuals equals less karmic consequence; but perhaps, not always true because of the complexities of differing line developments.

reincarnation? a spiritual hypothesis also! some good arguments for and against, imo…my understanding is that if reincarnation is true, animals have group and hive souls, so a human descending into an animal would not have individual awareness………………but yeah, i'm still very much the skeptic when it comes to the assertions of the bhagadvad gita on reincarnation……….

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hey Andrew
a yes and no to the first part liz. philosophically i see no division between you and source. practically, there is a huge difference! the most you or i or anyone can do in these bodies is co-create and we're quite limited even in that endeavor. we cannot create life in the macro sense! i can't create universes or alfalfa sprouts out of thin air.

So here we have the 2 truths doctrine. I am sad to hear about your inability to produce alfafa sprouts though……………I'd have sworn you'd have had that one sussed:-)

more on suffering: if i inadvertently crush an ant under my boot there is much less suffering than if i take out an aka 47 and slaughter a herd of elephants. this doesn't seem all that hard to grok to me…..
 
Hmm. Now you are mixing too many variables. Do ants suffer less because they are smaller? Or is it not about size (don't tempt me) Is it that there is a herd of elephants?
Or is it that an accident causes less suffering than deliberate intent?
One has more violence, more intent……….but do ants and elephants suffer?
I'm not that clear about what you are trying to say here, but I'm sure you'll come back and explain it.

…..i'll also add that i think higher stage development may lead to better choices. i think that integral probably does less damage than the hell's angels. hypothetically, higher stage individuals equals less karmic consequence; but perhaps, not always true because of the complexities of differing line developments.

You are free to think that if you wish. I think I would only say higher stage development leads to different choices. Good blue decision making brings lots of social conformity, that stability is essential.  Good orange decision making brings productivity and harnessing of technology. Poor green decision making brings idiot compassion and tries to negate difference instead of valuing it.  Just having a broader menu is no guarantee that the best choices will be made. I worry when I hear people using Integral to reclaim the moral high ground the churches used to sit on. An Integral view, if healthy and well developed will of course look to see an issue from all angles. That won't ever take away the real life situations which demand hard choices, it just means there will be more awareness around the process and maybe fewer unanticipated consequences. Actually, an Integral understanding in the wrong hands could do more damage and miss more opportunities than a few blokes on motorcycles could ever imagine. I've seen some highly developed people do some pretty immoral and sometimes dumb or selfish things. The cognitive line, in my view, tends to lead and everything else is playing catch up…..thats not a good insurance bet.

Reincarnation? Eh? I have no idea, not sure where that came from. I'll find out when I die, I guess. I'd be surprised………but I've been wrong before.

Liz

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

good points liz! 

i think bambi would run like hell if a tree came crashing down nearby, so no human need be anywhere near for bambi and the forest to exist…………

also, i'm not sure there is a clear demarcation to pain and suffering, they seem to coexist from my experience. are you saying that those who suffer don't feel pain, that suffering is pain free? i think you might be making too much of the ant and elephant example; look, if a little old granny has lived her life relatively benignly, surely she has caused less suffering to others than mao or stalin antics? again, i'm kind of surprised that this isn't a no brainer………

yup, good takes on sdi! i believe wilber posits that we have better odds at survival if more and more people reach 2nd tier stages. notwithstanding some core assumptions about the nature of reality i can see why he would think that, it seems somewhat logical to me. but of course there are those that think our survival would be better served by a massive 'regression' to agrarian society…..i can kind of understand the sentiment; although again, i tend to side with ken when he says acorns turn into oaks and it simply doesn't go the other way……..

there's one truth and one source as far as i can tell. it's certainly possible that i speak from subtle and casual state experiences and that these fade away so to speak when one realizes a prolonged nondual state. i have no quarrel with that per se, we're all where we are at and i certainly wouldn't claim to know more about reality than anyone else. i can only speak from my experience, although it's one hell of an assertion to say that nonduality means that humans are the be all and end all of intelligent life in this universe or other dimensions. but sure, as far as we know………….

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Hello Liz~

I really, really like what you say in this response.  It is plain and simple.  Sometimes, the truth is simply that…plain and simple.

Peace :)

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Thanks nahnni. I'm aware I use words as a bit of a blunt instrument sometimes, In truth I'm playing with ideas as much as anything else, I really have no idea how it is, just lots of thoughts about how it might be. I'm glad some of it resonates for you, though, makes me think possibly I may not be nuts after all:-),but that's all part of the fun. I need to work, will be back to play later.

Liz

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

andrew,

I didn't say that there were not degrees to suffering. I merelysuggested that suffering as content is equal until it is altered by theforms through which it is experienced. In other words, the egoic mindtakes the content (which I also suggest is nothing more than fear) andruns it through an egoic interpretive grinder and thereby makes itindividual. This is no different from what the ego-self does with thecontent of 'love' which is experienced in different forms based ondifferent egoic interpretations. Yet the content is the same.

this is the way nonduality is experienced; there is no end to one sideof the coin, ever! they and we are continually interconnected in anendless play of opposites that are mutually correlated emanating fromthe endless sea of god/emptiness.

Sounds like pantheism or monothesim to me. So to experience non-dualityis to experience duality? So what would those “comfortablesurroundings” be like for those dualistic, non-dual, higher level masters? Obviously,they'd have to be dualistic to be non-dualistic, right? To state that non-duality is an experience of opposites negates those who claim to have experienced the non-duality of no opposites.
So you have thus terminated in one fell swoop centuries of seeking the non-dual experience.
Actually I'm not a proponent of nonduality or any other specialized concept of transcendence, so I have no real dispute with your theory. However, to deconstruct non-duality down to duality probably won't impede, in the slightest, the seekers of the experience of non-duality, which is nothing more than an attempt to escape the conflict and suffering of opposites.

more on suffering: if i inadvertently crush an ant under my boot there is much less suffering than if i take out an aka 47 and slaughter a herd of elephants.

So you've intuited the experience of an ant and an elephant. Bit anthropomorphic don't you think? All you have to go on is your experience. And where do you suppose you got that? Why from all of us as we got our experience from you, like the layers of an onion. This is the true definition of non-duality. mutually co-creating constructs for which to interpret experience. If we exclude the concept of perception, then actually we may have very well conceptualized the whole damn universal construct. Hell, we made the 'self' who's to say we didn'y make everything else.

this doesn't seem all that hard to grok to me…..i'll also add that i think higher stage development may lead to better choices.

Really? based on what? better choices for whom, the individual or the collective? let me know when that occurs.

the most you or i or anyone can do in these bodies is co-create and we're quite limited even in that endeavor. we cannot create life in the macro sense! i can't create universes or alfalfa sprouts out of thin air.

You mean the most we have ever done. We really have no conceptualization as to what can be done in the macro other than what has been done and we tedn to stay in that comfort zone. “You” probably cannot create anything. However, 'we' may in fact create a great deal more than “you” or “we' know. Possibly 'we' even created 'you,' especially when you consider the self is nothing but a concept and therefore a collective self is not much more than that either. Maybe it's all nothing more than an experiential construct, including ants and elephants. Most importantly, including 'sensation.' Maybe sensation is nothing more than an experiential construct, with all the sound and the fury, of an external world?

Dude, don't tailgate the past, it only leads backwards.
mikeS

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

well sure mike, i concede to being more into the ideas of monism and panentheism, so i do get it that the purists will have a good chuckle when they read my post.

but my point, i believe, is that things are not in opposition, although it certainly appears via our relative experience that opposites are fact. and i believe they are fact, but nor opposing fact, but interrelated fact that can't exist with out each other. which is why i believe this universe can't be any different than what it is…….

would a world full of integrally minded people be less destructive than a world full of hells angels? hypothetically, i can imagine it could be, but my example was geared towards  individuals and possible choices that they would make……no way to prove it obviously……

on the last part, yeah, that would be nice, i'm just not seeing it anywhere and never really have; limited co-creation yes, creating a mythical paradise here via spiritual techniques, nope, but you can call me a skeptic anytime…….

sure, i have a few attachments to blue/amber!lol ah, but what if  light beings created us!? and what if their not prone to emergent evolution but are partly responsible for emergent evolutionary possibilities (higher level co-creators)…wilber and the buddhists could have it backwards too………….. ))))))))))))))))

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

 - Reply to original Thread -

Do you really think that people in America think about this one?
Most are republicans, they only care about there own finance, and as long as all of the America's are republicans, that will do for America. It will criple to a hold, yes, but it will be full of totalitarian magnets with private armies controlling their armies.

The problem with America is, that it is full of people who think they 'can fool the system'. Basicly banking is fooling the system. But they are forgetting, that they pay taxes to uphold that very system. And therefore only fool themselves. You cannot change debt from one creditcard to the other, it will still be indebt, only now more. It is stupid. And it will grow worse. The creditcard crisis will come, and that is even bigger.

People spend money they don't have. Obama's policies, which are much more socialistic. Are far more likely to help the economy, because it helps everyone!
Think of it:
Help the rich, and they will have tons of money. But Stored away somewhere.
This money will never help the economy.
Help the poor, and they will have some money, they will spend immediatly.
This money directly helps the economy.

And think of it: how much of America's money is held by the rich in America? Almost all, and almost all of this money won't help the Economy.

Yes it is very socialistic of Obama, to take more from the rich, and give it to the poor. And yes, the rich and powerfull that govern the country, and that write those articles. Most republicans. Are rich, and will dislike to see their money go. They value an amount on the bankaccounts.

Whereas if you would spend that money… The economy would burts and grow huge.

So, The worst isn't yet to come.
It has been hiding on your doorstep all along.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

youre very smart domi, and you understand these things way better than i do. but i want you to know that im no republican. im no democrat. i put vote on the things that i believe matter. and i do  think that this country is headed for even harder times. like you said, people spend money they don't have. a lot of the people in this country are very materialistic, and lots of them were raised without knowing the hardship of being poor or working class. they dont know the value of money, and do not know how to set a budget, setting themselves up for disaster. they think that they can spend all they want and never go into debt. yeah right. im 18 and i have debt. i'll have even more when i go to college. thousand upon thousands of dollars in debt. but im not one of those fools who will blow my money on $30+ purses, or buy kegs of beer, or waste hundreds of dollars on shoes, or buy any other expensive, useless things. i know what my budget will be, and if i end up going to bed hungry at night, i guess that's that. i'm the only one who is gonna help me, and i'm the only one who is gonna put me through college. but at least i can be smart about it. no credit card for me america.

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

Domus
if only it were that simple……………..somebody woulda fixed it by now.

I have trouble with sweeping statements that start “Most Americans”..or “most white people”..or “most gay people”..or “most women”

The reason I have trouble is that in my experience these sweeping generalisations tend to be followed by something that is rarely accurate or positive and is often finger pointing. Yeah I'm sure most of America's money is held by its rich people, its the same in the UK, in fact in any Western place i;ve visited and in some eastern and African ones too.

I think your remarks are poorly supported..one of the things about America that gets me any time I have been able to visit is its diversity. IT's HUGE in a way Europeans just don't get, seriously huge and incredibly varied. IT's more akin to the EU than a country as we would know it. Oh and for the record, on maybe half a dozen visits, I didn't come back with the perception that MOST Americans were rich at all.

I'm not suggesting the US economy or foreign policy hasn't contributed to the current situation….but if I started saying most Dutch people are fat cats living off 3rd world exploitation via the diamond industry you might be slightly tempted to disagree with me.

Liz

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

i agree with certain points that you and domi list. i havent had much experience in the economic world, but i can see what goes on around me. and i tend to disagree with generalizations too. i mean, thats what starts fights after all. 

lets all just simmer down and be peaceful here! theres tension in the air..so lets massage it away, shall we?

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

No tension from me Suni…………really. Just some things can't be said and left to go unchallenged. I'm not fighting, just trying to broaden his outlook a bit

Liz

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

ah, ok. well, its good to show multiple perspectives :)

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

hi Suni
just so you know - sometimes the dialogues here are often very direct and strong.  and sometimes there is some tension generated perhaps.  but the point of it is to engage each other deeply - even if some “buttons” are pushed from time to time.  it's ok.  as a matter of fact, sometimes when we are pushed a bit - we can benefit from seeing where our assumptions lie - and also we can come to see a broader perspective, as liz says - a wider understanding perhaps - even if the process may be a little uncomfortable.
warm regards
christine (arpita)

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

The problem is, that it is that simple, but also that nobody in the country wants that solution. I'd say riots at least.

Most is a way to address a group of people but letting know immediately that there are naturally exceptions.

And I know most American's aren't rich. It is worse, most Americans live either in almost poverty or just not in poverty. It is horrible. These people directly rely on the economy. And what rich people there are, is a select few you could fill a single city with.

I do not see what diversity has got to do with it, but I'll elaborate: according to The CIA factbook the US has an estimate of 307,212,123 inhabitants for July 2009. on 9,161,923 sq km of land. Making on average live 33,5 people per sq km.
With a population Diversity of ± white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or moreraces 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)

The EU: has a population of 491,582,852 in that same estimate. with 4,324,782 sq km of landsurface. Making an average of 113,6 people live on a sq km.
It has the following official languages: Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French,Gaelic, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian,Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish,Swedish

So yes, true america is huge, but so is The EU If I would walk from one part to the other, I would have only crossed half the USA, but I would have encountered three times as much people, and about 10 different languages, not even mentioning ethinc or relgious groups. I think Europeans can only overestimate the diversity of America. I agree that it naturally isn't with all the EU countries like that, but with most. I think they can. As long as they speak different languages across your borders, you will notice ;)

I put in article 1 and article 2
About the opinion of others in spending of the government and the facts that ajoin them. There is one simple and fundemantal problem with money spend on defence. It gets burned and is gone. It hardly helps the economy.

I hope you find my remarks no longer poorly supported. And please, let me remind you that I usually am quite able to support what I say. It just takes me hours to write it all down. Hence I do not always put it on paper.
regards,

Re: "The Worst is Yet to Come: If You're Not Petrified....

I love the diversity of Europe, I love what the maintenance of languages does to maintain culture..it's easy to see and feel the difference as you travel around. But just because America is perceived as English speaking, that doesn't make it all the same. One country divided by a common language perhaps:-) THough actually there are areas where Spanish is more common than English, for example, it's not uniform at all.

It's not clear that defence money doesn't help the economy. It's a huge industry. It keeps loads of people in work. Yes it also makes loads of profits for corporations and ultimately its products cause damage, but there are whole areas that depend on military spend to maintain their economy. That's not just in the US either. Without defence money, many shipyards wouldn't survive these days. Its also one area where governments will invest money in research and development, and there are spin offs from that. Not to mention all the back up suppliers of components and other bits. Now I'm not saying lets build loads of weapons, thats a good thing. Just that..well, it does make a significant contribution to the economy.

We don't live in a world that has one single problem, undisputed facts or easy answers. I think I'm having trouble with your black and white approach, it simply doesn't work with complex problems, in my experience.

Liz