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Fully Engaged

This is a pod that encourages depth of engagement toward awakening with one another, through one another. Discussions will address individual and collective experiences and ideas with no boundaries on how that is expressed.  The tentative premise is that “awakening” or “enlightenment” is not an individual activity in which the results are restricted to only a select...(more)
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  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

Nicole said May 15, 10:44 AM:

 

In thinking about factors that help us engage more deeply and those that work against deeper engagement, I was reminded today of Schopenhauer, who compiled the following list.

Thoughts? Comments?

From the website here

1 Carry your opponent's proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it.
The more general your opponent's statement becomes, the more objections you can find against it.
The more restricted and narrow your own propositions remain, the easier they are to defend.

2 Use different meanings of your opponent's words to refute his argument.
Example: Person A says, “You do not understand the mysteries of Kant's philosophy.”
Person B replies, “Of, if it's mysteries you're talking about, I'll have nothing to do with them.”

3 Ignore your opponent's proposition, which was intended to refer to some particular thing.
Rather, understand it in some quite different sense, and then refute it.
Attack something different than what was asserted.

4 Hide your conclusion from your opponent until the end.
Mingle your premises here and there in your talk.
Get your opponent to agree to them in no definite order.
By this circuitous route you conceal your goal until you have reached all the admissions necessary to reach your goal.

5 Use your opponent's beliefs against him.
If your opponent refuses to accept your premises, use his own premises to your advantage.
Example, if the opponent is a member of an organization or a religious sect to which you do not belong, you may employ the declared opinions of this group against the opponent.

6 Confuse the issue by changing your opponent's words or what he or she seeks to prove.
Example: Call something by a different name: “good repute” instead of “honor,” “virtue” instead of “virginity,” “red-blooded” instead of “vertebrates”.

7 State your proposition and show the truth of it by asking the opponent many questions.
By asking many wide-reaching questions at once, you may hide what you want to get admitted.
Then you quickly propound the argument resulting from the proponent's admissions.

8 Make your opponent angry.
An angry person is less capable of using judgment or perceiving where his or her advantage lies.

9 Use your opponent's answers to your question to reach different or even opposite conclusions.

10 If you opponent answers all your questions negatively and refuses to grant you any points, ask him or her to concede the opposite of your premises.
This may confuse the opponent as to which point you actually seek him to concede.

11 If the opponent grants you the truth of some of your premises, refrain from asking him or her to agree to your conclusion.
Later, introduce your conclusions as a settled and admitted fact.
Your opponent and others in attendance may come to believe that your conclusion was admitted.

12 If the argument turns upon general ideas with no particular names, you must use language or a metaphor that is favorable to your proposition.
Example: What an impartial person would call “public worship” or a “system of religion” is described by an adherent as “piety” or “godliness” and by an opponent as “bigotry” or “superstition.”
In other words, inset what you intend to prove into the definition of the idea.

13 To make your opponent accept a proposition , you must give him an opposite, counter-proposition as well.
If the contrast is glaring, the opponent will accept your proposition to avoid being paradoxical.
Example: If you want him to admit that a boy must to everything that his father tells him to do, ask him, “whether in all things we must obey or disobey our parents.”
Or , if a thing is said to occur “often” you are to understand few or many times, the opponent will say “many.” 
It is as though you were to put gray next to black and call it white; or gray next to white and call it black.

14 Try to bluff your opponent.
If he or she has answered several of your question without the answers turning out in favor of your conclusion, advance your conclusion triumphantly, even if it does not follow.
If your opponent is shy or stupid, and you yourself possess a great deal of impudence and a good voice, the technique may succeed.

15 If you wish to advance a proposition that is difficult to prove, put it aside for the moment.
Instead, submit for your opponent's acceptance or rejection some true proposition, as though you wished to draw your proof from it.
Should the opponent reject it because he suspects a trick, you can obtain your triumph by showing how absurd the opponent is to reject an obviously true proposition.
Should the opponent accept it, you now have reason on your side for the moment.
You can either try to prove your original proposition, as in #14, maintain that your original proposition is proved by what your opponent accepted.
For this an extreme degree of impudence is required, but experience shows cases of it succeeding.

16 When your opponent puts forth a proposition, find it inconsistent with his or her other statements, beliefs, actions or lack of action.
Example: Should your opponent defend suicide, you may at once exclaim, “Why don't you hang yourself?”
Should the opponent maintain that his city is an unpleasant place to live, you may say, “Why don't you leave on the first plane?”

17 If your opponent presses you with a counter-proof, you will often be able to save yourself by advancing some subtle distinction.
Try to find a second meaning or an ambiguous sense for your opponent's idea.

18 If your opponent has taken up a line of argument that will end in your defeat, you must not allow him to carry it to its conclusion.
Interrupt the dispute, break it off altogether, or lead the opponent to a different subject.

19 Should your opponent expressly challenge you to produce any objection to some definite point in his argument, and you have nothing to say, try to make the argument less specific.
Example: If you are asked why a particular hypothesis cannot be accepted, you may speak of the fallibility of human knowledge, and give various illustrations of it.

20 If your opponent has admitted to all or most of your premises, do not ask him or her directly to accept your conclusion.
Rather, draw the conclusion yourself as if it too had been admitted.

21 When your opponent uses an argument that is superficial and you see the falsehood, you can refute it by setting forth its superficial character.
But it is better to meet the opponent with acounter-argument that is just as superficial, and so dispose of him.
For it is with victory that you are concerned, not with truth.
Example: If the opponent appeals to prejudice, emotion or attacks you personally, return the attack in the same manner.

22 If your opponent asks you to admit something from which the point in dispute will immediately follow, you must refuse to do so, declaring that it begs the question.

23 Contradiction and contention irritate a person into exaggerating their statements.
By contradicting your opponent you may drive him into extending the statement beyond its natural limit.
When you then contradict the exaggerated form of it, you look as though you had refuted the original statement.
Contrarily, if your opponent tries to extend your own statement further than your intended, redefine your statement's limits and say, “That is what I said, no more.”

24 State a false syllogism.
Your opponent makes a proposition, and by false inference and distortion of his ideas you force from the proposition other propositions that are not intended and that appear absurd.
It then appears that opponent's proposition gave rise to these inconsistencies, and so appears to be indirectly refuted.

25 If your opponent is making a generalization, find an instance to the contrary.
Only one valid contradiction is needed to overthrow the opponent's proposition.
Example: “All ruminants are horned,” is a generalization that may be upset by the single instance of the camel.

26 A brilliant move is to turn the tables and use your opponent's arguments against himself.
Example: Your opponent declares: “so and so is a child, you must make an allowance for him.”
You retort, “Just because he is a child, I must correct him; otherwise he will persist in his bad habits.”

27 Should your opponent suprise you by becoming particularly angry at an argument, you must urge it with all the more zeal.
No only will this make your opponent angry, but it will appear that you have put your finger on the weak side of his case, and your opponent is more open to attack on this point than you expected.

28 When the audience consists of individuals (or a person) who is not an expert on a subject, you make an invalid objection to your opponent who seems to be defeated in the eyes of the audience.
This strategy is particularly effective if your objection makes your opponent look ridiculous or if the audience laughs.
If your opponent must make a long, winded and complicated explanation to correct you, the audience will not be disposed to listen to him.

29 If you find that you are being beaten, you can create a diversion–that is, you can suddenly begin to talk of something else, as though it had a bearing on the matter in dispute.
This may be done without presumption if the diversion has some general bearing on the matter.

30 Make an appeal to authority rather than reason.
If your opponent respects an authority or an expert, quote that authority to further your case.
If needed, quote what the authority said in some other sense or circumstance.
Authorities that your opponent fails to understand are those which he generally admires the most.
You may also, should it be necessary, not only twist your authorities, but actually falsify them, or quote something that you have entirely invented yourself.

31 If you know that you have no reply to the arguments that your opponent advances, you by a find stroke of irony declare yourself to be an incompetent judge.
Example: “What you say passes my poor powers of comprehension; it may well be all very true, but I can't understand it, and I refrain from any expression of opinion on it.”
In this way you insinuate to the audience, with whom you are in good repute, that what your opponent says is nonsense.
This technique may be used only when you are quite sure that the audience thinks much better of you than your opponent.

32 A quick way of getting rid of an opponent's assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.
Example: You can say, “That is fascism” or “Atheism” or “Superstition.”
In making an objection of this kind you take for granted
1)That the assertion or question is identical with, or at least contained in, the category cited; 
and 
2)The system referred to has been entirely refuted by the current audience.

33 You admit your opponent's premises but deny the conclusion.
Example: “That's all very well in theory, but it won't work in practice.” 

34 When you state a question or an argument, and your opponent gives you no direct answer, or evades it with a counter question, or tries to change the subject, it is sure sign you have touched a weak spot, sometimes without intending to do so.
You have, as it were, reduced your opponent to silence.
You must, therefore, urge the point all the more, and not let your opponent evade it, even when you do not know where the weakness that you have hit upon really lies.

35 Instead of working on an opponent's intellect or the rigor of his arguments, work on his motive.
If you success in making your opponent's opinion, should it prove true, seem distinctly prejudicial to his own interest, he will drop it immediately.
Example: A clergyman is defending some philosophical dogma.
You show him that his proposition contradicts a fundamental doctrine of his church.
He will abandon the argument.

36 You may also puzzle and bewilder your opponent by mere bombast.
If your opponent is weak or does not wish to appear as if he has no idea what your are talking about, you can easily impose upon him some argument that sounds very deep or learned, or that sounds indisputable.

37 Should your opponent be in the right but, luckily for you, choose a faulty proof, you can easily refute it and then claim that you have refuted the whole position.
This is the way in which bad advocates lose good cases.
If no accurate proof occurs to your opponent, you have won the day.

38 Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand.
In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character.
This is a very popular technique, because it takes so little skill to put it into effect.

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

mikeS said May 15, 7:25 PM:

 

hmmm…..

Nicole, do you feel that much of what occurs in this pod is “argument”? Do you feel many of the members seek to win arguments?

Clearly Shopenhauer's rules for winning would not apply to an infinite game, but most certainly apply to the outcomes of a finite game.

Are all methods of seeking synthesis mere argument in pursuit of winning?

I'm not sure your reasoning behind this post and would like to pick your brain on this, since I have a guilty conscience….
mikeS

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

Nicole said May 16, 7:02 AM:

 

Hi Mike,

Actually, no, I don't believe that this pod has mostly been about arguments, and the many, many open-ended and heart-real posts here have been a source of inspiration and encouragement to me in my own life. 

I have been thinking, though, of what Nahnni said about thread-stoppers, and it's been on my mind for a long time. Not just here, but in the God Pod and elsewhere. I know that I have often inadvertently stopped a thread dead in its tracks and I want to learn to do better.

A Gaia friend introduced me a while back to this list of “38 ways to win an argument”, and I just remembered last time that I had never had a chance to discuss it properly. This seemed like the best place on Gaia at this moment.

This is very much about a finite game, but I was hoping that it might help point the way out of the traps to a more infinite game.

I believe there are effective and genuine methods of seeking synthesis that certainly aren't arguments in pursuit of winning, because synthesis is about learning from others, and winning is just about proving the other wrong.

The first thing I notice about this list is that it is about “the opponent”. Sometimes when I am in a discussion, I notice I (or some favourite ideas I identify strongly with) am feeling attacked. If I go with that feeling I am likely to get defensive or attack back or both. 

So, one could take each one of these ways and turn it on its head, to break out of the finite game.

Instead of carrying your opponent's proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerating it, finding more objections,  keeping one's own restricted and narrow, thus easier they are to defendone could speak only to what the other is saying, ask questions for clarification and continue to open up and explore new ground in one's own perspective.

Peace angel,

Nicole

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

mikeS said May 18, 5:07 AM:

 

Nicole,

The first thing I notice about this list is that it is about “theopponent”. Sometimes when I am in a discussion, I notice I (or somefavourite ideas I identify strongly with) am feeling attacked. If I gowith that feeling I am likely to get defensive or attack back or both. 

Yes, I can relate to the feeling. However, for the ego, sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

Yet, there have been times when I've gone toe to toe with folks, in vehement point-counterpoint conflict, and I was able to examine my own egoic tendencies quite closely to the point where I actually felt quite stupid (even though I may have felt that my argument was valid). However, sometimes I am quite stupid and I have tentatively accepted that as factual. Ha!

Sometimes this form of awareness has resulted in egoic change and was necessary to facilitating that change and it had nothing to do with the content of the argument. Therefore, I believe the axiom that it's “all grist for the mill” is accurate to some degree.

Personal attacks are limited and rather useless. But what about attacking an idea? I imagine many would have no reservation in attacking ideas such as those propagated by the previous U.S. administration. We have no problem attacking racist ideas and if we attack the ideas of a proponent of racism are we attacking the person?

Nevertheless, I get your point. How can we arrive at synthesis if thesis/antithesis are not dealt with effectively, thereby causing a breakdown in the process.

Yet, I suppose we cannot completely do away with conflict. I guess we have to be careful of what rules we apply.

Say me…say you?
mikeS

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

Nicole said May 18, 5:31 AM:

 

Now you're going to get that song stuck in my head, Mike :) oh well! It's an improvement on the theme to Loveboat which for no discernible reason I have been fighting to eradicate for the last couple of days lol.

Attacking ideas. Well, I've seen a fair bit of that here and there on Gaia. It too often results in people just leaving a pod or leaving Gaia because, as I mentioned before, we tend to identify rather closely with our ideas.

People have a different experience of seeing ideas of someone else agreed upon as a target, say GWB, being attacked than having their own ideas attacked. Whether or not it is ok to attack someone's ideas when the person is not around to defend himself is a separate question, I'd rather focus on the matter at hand which is this.

The purpose of not just this pod but to some extent most other pods (with the exception of pods created for one person - again, a separate topic not germane) here on Gaia is to engage with other people. So, it seems to me that the best way to do that is not to alienate them by attacking their arguments in unfair ways, which is what the Schopenhauer ways are all about.

Another aspect I noticed above, besides the opponent, was the audience. 

31 If you know that you have no reply to the arguments that your opponent advances, you by a find stroke of irony declare yourself to be an incompetent judge.
Example: “What you say passes my poor powers of comprehension; it may well be all very true, but I can't understand it, and I refrain from any expression of opinion on it.”
In this way you insinuate to the audience, with whom you are in good repute, that what your opponent says is nonsense.
This technique may be used only when you are quite sure that the audience thinks much better of you than your opponent.



Another egoic tendency is to “play to the crowd” or my perception of who the crowd is. But again this hurts the depth of our engagement, because the only thing that should matter in creating synthesis is clarity of thesis and antithesis - not how “well” I am doing in presenting my points.

These things are hard to talk about, aren't they? Thank you for engaging with me on this, Mike. 

And of course, it would be so cool to hear from anyone else - I find there is endless material for discussion in the 38 ways.

Your thoughts, please?

Nicole

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

mikeS said May 18, 6:10 AM:

 

Nicole,

Yes, but to play to an audience, one must be “in good repute.” However, to be in good repute with the audience I would imagine one would need to have shown fairness in relating over time.

I found a little Carse quote that might be valid:

“Infinite players look forward, not to a victory in which the past will achieve a timeless meaning, but toward ongoing play in which the past will require constant reinterpretation. Infinite players do not oppose the actions of others, but initiate actions of their own in such a way that others will respond by initiating their own.

Thanks,
mikeS

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

Nicole said May 18, 7:12 AM:

 

That Carse quote is very helpful. I imagine there is likely a Carse quote to balance every Schopenhauer “argument-winner”.

I like that - initiating actions so others initiate their own. 

The constant reinterpretation of the past is a natural human mechanism, isn't it? For example, if someone does or says something we don't like, it's easy to rewrite past positive interactions in a more negative way. And conversely if we come to understand someone better and like them more, we can reinterpret past negative interactions.

Or is there something I'm missing?

Peace,

Nicole

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

mikeS said May 19, 4:49 AM:

 

The constant reinterpretation of the past is a natural human mechanism, isn't it?

Yep, seems so. Yet, most likely all reinterpretation of the past, merely applies another aspect of the past to that reinterpretation in a pattern of circularity that offers no exit.

However, I've been considering the concept of “true forgiveness” which attempts to understand that the only real forgiveness is that it never happened and this ties in with the idea of an illusional reality. Forgiveness that I bestow on you, from the world's concept of forgiveness, merely maintains you in a subordinate position and allows me a degree of superiority over you. So in effect, no actual forgiveness has occurred because the past will always remain a factor of our present relating and impinge any depth of engagement we might create.

However, many would claim that this clearly results in the complete denial of factual reality and thus choosing what we will and will not recognize. Yet, it appears to me that we do this anyway but based on a past that no longer exists. It seems evident that any forward progress we take as a collective will need to occur from an annihilation of certain past aspects. Otherwise, the past will continue to constrain and restrict what we can do together.
If “human” is nothing but an ego-collective construction based on past information, there seems no reason why certain constructions can't be changed.

Thanks,
mikeS

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

Nicole said May 19, 5:57 AM:

 

However, I've been considering the concept of “true forgiveness” which attempts to understand that the only real forgiveness is that it never happened and this ties in with the idea of an illusional reality. Forgiveness that I bestow on you, from the world's concept of forgiveness, merely maintains you in a subordinate position and allows me a degree of superiority over you. So in effect, no actual forgiveness has occurred because the past will always remain a factor of our present relating and impinge any depth of engagement we might create.


Forgiveness - a tremendous topic, deserving of a thread all of its own, I think.


I agree that if it's forgiven, it has to be as if it's never happened, otherwise it can always be dredged up to be used in some future argument - I'm sure you see this all too often in your counseling practice and we all experience it in our families.


I don't know if we ever achieve perfect forgiveness but it seems to me it's an important goal, if we want that depth. I don't think it's so much the denial that it never happened but rather a refusal to harbour resentment, to “return” there by dwelling on it or dredging up for ammunition. It's a fearlessness to engage as deeply after hurtful events as if they never happened.


Quite a challenge, isn't it? 


Thank you Mike, what a great way to start the day,


Nicole

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Schopenhauer's 38 Ways to Win an Argument

Nicole said May 19, 8:25 AM:

 

I realised I missed saying something important about these 38 ways.

These are not Schopenhauer's techs but techs he observed others using. He is not promoting them but exposing them to help people see them and do things differently.

Mike, you understand this very well, but I wanted to add this for others reading the thread, so it's clear.

Thanks,

Nicole