The Fall of the American Empire

“This week marks the end of the dollar’s reign as the world’s reserve currency. It marks the start of a terrible period of economic and political decline in the United States. And it signals the last gasp of the American imperium. That’s over. It is not coming back. And what is to come will be very, very painful.”

“Barack Obama, and the criminal class on Wall Street, aided by a corporate media that continues to peddle fatuous gossip and trash talk as news while we endure the greatest economic crisis in our history, may have fooled us, but the rest of the world knows we are bankrupt. And these nations are damned if they are going to continue to prop up an inflated dollar and sustain the massive federal budget deficits, swollen to over $2 trillion, which fund America’s imperial expansion in Eurasia and our system of casino capitalism. They have us by the throat. They are about to squeeze.”

“There are meetings being held Monday and Tuesday in Yekaterinburg, Russia, (formerly Sverdlovsk) among Chinese President Hu Jintao, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and other top officials of the six-nation Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The United States, which asked to attend, was denied admittance. Watch what happens there carefully. The gathering is, in the words of economist Michael Hudson, “the most important meeting of the 21st century so far.” “It is the first formal step by our major trading partners to replace the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. If they succeed, the dollar will dramatically plummet in value, the cost of imports, including oil, will skyrocket, interest rates will climb and jobs will hemorrhage at a rate that will make the last few months look like boom times. State and federal services will be reduced or shut down for lack of funds. The United States will begin to resemble the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe.”

“Obama, endowed by many with the qualities of a savior, will suddenly look pitiful, inept and weak. And the rage that has kindled a handful of shootings and hate crimes in the past few weeks will engulf vast segments of a disenfranchised and bewildered working and middle class. The people of this class will demand vengeance, radical change, order and moral renewal, which an array of proto-fascists, from the Christian right to the goons who disseminate hate talk on Fox News, will assure the country they will impose.”

LINK

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 It's not like we didn't see it coming 30 years ago, but still, wow.

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Another perspective here: Ganging Up on Gold and the US Dollar‎

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i'm not like that Silly Old Bear…i'm working class and i work hard to build a savings upon which to support myself in two months..i'm not like those wall street fat cats, or the money hungry people in Washington or the oil industry..just a working class college student looking for light in the darkness..

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Hedges is exaggerating here. And his analysis is rather emotional. I prefer the vies of journalists like Roger Cohen, Fareed Zakaria, Parag Khanna and strategists like Thomas Barnett who detect patterns of connectivity and geopoltical strata.

Last year I wrote this in regards to the Georgia Conflict:

Discovering and exploring the Eurasian Chessboard

The world is simply shifting to a multi-polar worldorder. And Europe as much as US need to learn more and in depth about the new complexity.

Without dusted old mantras and verbal reflexes from the time of Cold War and before.

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Yeah, Like Nahni said. We had documentaries about that even before Bush W…
I am so glad, all my money is in Euro's…

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o.0 i hope that really doesn't happen..i live in the US and i will be damned if some idiots are going to steal my future. i'll go wild and run with the wolves if that's what it takes for me. or move to europe. there's more culture over there anyway.

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I think about you, Suni, and so many others like you, and wish for the best of possible futures for you all.

Albert, yes, exaggeration and emotionalism don't tend to be helpful in these kinds of “analyses”.

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*hugs* thank you nicole

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Well, that is the problem, nobody in particular is going to steel your money. It is the culture that deprives itself. Just think of credit cards, great idea. Unless people don't pay their bills, Then money literally vanishes.

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vanishes, and yet those who have not paid still get hounded by collectors. i do not understand why someone would get a credit card if they cannot afford to pay for what they buy. the only things i would use a credit card for would be for groceries, or little things, like…say a necklace from Claire's (which is like a rich person's store to my broke self..a necklace that costs $8? that's a big loss to me these days!)

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Greetings~

While the article certainly has the element of emotionalism to it and as with most emotional responses, a tendency toward exaggeration, I think the underlying concern is very real.  One has to simply investigate the horrors of the food industry and how our nutrition has turned to crap by design to know that there are powers that place unmitigated greed before the common good.  Men like Karl Rove, for example, can read the patterns of the general population with a profoundly expert eye and so serve the elitist agenda very well.  All one has to do is turn self-sufficiency and critical assessment into dependence on one's own vice and a political idea and eventually you have leaders who become weak as well.  I actually do think that political punditry becomes harmful after awhile.  People become influenced by opinion and conjecture rather than by discernment of the facts, so I do rather agree with the article on the Fox News and their ilk in assessing hate mongering discourse holding an element of real danger. 

But there were signs and warnings of impending calamity decades ago.  Just to investigate what Monsanto, for just one example, was up to is enough to make the blood run cold.   And the pharmaceutical companies are little more than murderous Dark Knights around a conniving Round Table.  In short, the layers of manure are becoming fossilized in this culture.

There is no doubt that things are undergoing a profound shift and it is good to listen with a discerning ear to what is being said on many fronts.  Intelligence and insight are great gifts.  This is really the time to “know thyself”, perhaps, and take seriously the messages being given.  To mull over what is real and separate it from what is insane.  While I don't think Barak Obama is either calculating sinner or risen saviour in the game of politics, I do believe he was/is the picture of hope and hope springs eternal from Pandora's Box of despairs.

Peace~

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the “food” and “health” industries are indeed an excellent mirror of “where we are” collectively… the focal point of the industries is profit - not the well-being of the collective… and the collective buys it…

the whole thing seems to be a “head in the sand” situation.  Running out to Walmart because that is the cheapest place to buy Pepsi and your favorite big name potato chips…stopping in for a side of fries at the McDonalds which is conveniantly situated right in the building.

talking is good - and yet - we all have our part in continuing this… through our shopping patterns, working patterns, home owning, banking patterns, entertainment patterns etc…. yes?

and life in the cities or suburbs - where so many people are - it isn't easy to establish a garden, to find open pollinated natural seed, to find the greens and the manure to start a compost so chemical fertilizers don't need to be used…
or even to find decent affordable naturally and locally grown food… food that is medicine in itself… and it isn't easy to change habits - of eating processed sugar and salt and fat -  from genetically selected and modified plants - canola, corn, potatoes, beets - huge monocultures of fast growing plants - transported and processed so that it is so satisfying to eat in the short term - all neatly packaged in bright and colorful plastic with clever names and slogans …  eating out of habit, or boredom, or desparation…

and even if you did convince people to give up their habits, not just their food choices which supports the food and health industries as they are - but of other habits  - of cocaine - then what of the people growing coca leaves in central and south america?  not the people running the cartels - but those folks that cultivate the plants… and those folks in the middle east that barely survive by planting acres of poppies for heroin… what of them?

it is a world filled with difficult relations, difficult choices. 

I make a living by working in a grocery store - in amongst the insanity of packaged products …  I do it in order to live and pay rent in this community where there IS easy access to greens and manure for enriching soil, and supplies of open pollinated natural seed… where i can pick nettles to dry for highly nourishing and medicinal tea… 
Also, i choose the grocery store work so i can see and relate with the humanity that is there… that works there, that delivers there, that shops there… just being in the middle of it… and connecting as well as i can with those who cross my path… seeing them… being seen… seeing and relating in spite of, in the midst of the insanity. 

if it all falls, then it falls - and people's fears may rise to the surface and many may have no resources and may suffer and even die … yet - in the midst of that - the people will still seek each other out for comfort, people longing to be seen, to be touched in a deep way, to touch another  - just as they long for it right now.

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Good assessment, Christine.  Many neighbourhoods in urban areas are now gathering together to fill vacant lots with a community garden, which not only brings together the people for the basics of gardening and growing one's own food source, but the joy in gathering together for such purposes.  Poppies and Coca cultivation need not be produced for nefarious means.  These cultivations can be used for medicinal purposes, which they are already, but it would take the criminal element out of it, but that is probably just a beautiful dream, since the cartels are as strong as the governments who support them.

I think the key is probably in using the interrelationship between everything for the good rather than the ill, but there is the element of being overwhelmed by the ill and not experiencing the wherewithal to insist upon the good.  But what we do know, is how corporations such as Monsanto drove the small grocers and farmers into ruin and altered the purity of seeds into hybrid, nearly useless pods, so in effect, what we are eating is cardboard.  Mass produced food 50 years ago had more nutritional value than many organics do today.  This is truly a travesty. 

I think many are returning to a more simpler life, and this is a beginning of one change at a time.  Living within one's means does not have to be a burden, but a joy.  It may just be a matter of perspective and creative energy.

“and many may have no resources and may suffer and even die”

Although this is realistic to an uncomfortable degree, it still sounds a little like social Darwinism and that is a whole other dilemma when considering the state of things.  In Minnesota, for example, we have a governor who is hell bent on budgeting on such a theory, forcing his suburban politics onto the masses.  His theory is that the poor are poor due to their own bad choices, their “sin” as it were, and so let them eat cake…from the dumpster, if they can find it.  Let them die from preventable/curable disease, we are not in the business of charity and it reduces the surplus population.  They, those who lack resource, must be made to “feel the consequence of their poor choices”.

I realize such an example is extreme, but I do think we have to be careful.  It could easily be any one of us without resource one day, although, as I said, the reality is sometimes bleak. 

Blessings~

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listen up, bear. just because i misinterpreted something, does NOT mean that defines the american personality. i do not appreciate you talking to me in that manner.

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i did. you say you are gleefully gloating for the chickens coming home to roost, and i misread it. apparently. that does not give you free reign to bash the entire american population.

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I wasn't bashing the entire American population - that's where you are misreading me, Suni - please read my posts again. I took care to separate the individuals from the whole.

Shalom,
Dov

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(((Suni))), please know you are not being attacked personally. 

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breathe in, breathe out. i am sorry for getting so riled up bear. i will admit i have a short fuse, and i will snap back when people get fresh with me, but i try my best to control it. peace?

*hugs* ok nicole

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Peace.

Hugs,
Dov

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:D yay!! *BEARHUG!!!!*

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Well, I'm certainly glad that got worked out.

The current economic crisis is building up steam. Recently I came across this bit of gossip concerning a possible ”Bank Holiday.”

A bank holiday would completely shut down all commercial and retail banks for a period of time to avoid a run on the banks when it becomes clear that the biggest banks are insolvent. It is beginning to be clear that they are, in fact, insolvent.

When this occurs you can accurately predict that this will foment severe social unrest.

In addition, it should be noted that due to the global connections between banks, if even one “too big to fail” U.S. bank fails, all banks in all developed countries will fall like dominoes.

America may appear to be a cesspool of corporate greed, however, greed is an egoic human attribute of worldwide proportions.

We are truly approaching fascinating and historic changes that will leave no one, anywhere, untouched.

A solid spiritual foundation should come in handy over the next two years

Peace Angels,
mikeS

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That's a clever trick, closing for a bank holiday and not re-opening.

Wow.

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rotten Wall Street at its finest i see..

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Ha! Funny you should mention “rotten Wall Street,” Suni, because actually the richest corporate investors are getting out of Wall Street entirely:

“Executives at 252 companies in the S&P 500 unloaded shares since March 10, with total net sales reaching $1.2 billion..”  LINK

They're all getting rid of their stocks and buying gold, silver and precious metals because soon the dollar won't be worth a penny. We are gradually heading toward super-hyperinflation. To understand what that means read about the Weimar Republic in which a loaf of bread cost a million marks (German currency). Of course, this opened the door for Hitler's rise to power.

hmmm…Obama?

MikeS

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hell, i'm gonna turn wild and run with the wolves when everything hits the fan big time. damn human intricacies. damn currency. damn greed and its allies to hell. i'm gonna go about life with the wolves!

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While every empire eventually falls, I don't think China would be the nation to pull the plug from the Americans for a few important reasons.  They have been bankrolling our enormous debt, which means that if our economy fails, they are not going to be repaid.  Our economies are so strongly tied together in producer consumer roles that they need us to buy our dollar store/walmart/ kmart trinkets in order to support its manufacturing base.  China will be the one to throw us the rope- not to toss us overboard- at least for now.

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well, at least thats a hope out there in the dark.. i hope we pull through. where is FDR and Teddy Roosevelt when we need them?

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Hi Tracey,

Good point. However, China also injected capital “stimulus” into its own economy (to the tune of some 500 billion). In addition, while the U.S. government can't get the banks to lend, the Chinese government simply ordered it (one of the benefits of communism, I suppose). So right now their economy is humming along. Yes the Chinese economy is tied into the U.S. Unfortunately, American consumers are frightened and although Walmart sales are good, future projections are not.
I'm not sure how China could throw us a rope? In fact, they are beginning to threaten no more debt purchases (treasuries) and giving up the dollar as global reserve currency.

Interesting times we live in.
mikeS

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i didnt even know that the dollar was a reserve currency. dont you wish we lived in a world without money? unfortunately, this only seems to work in small communities and tribes..

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Interesting topic…

Suni,
What would you propose to be the measure of one's work and value if not with money? Money represents what one has earned, which means that he who works the hardest or offers the most to the world has the most money and gets the most back from the world in return. Money is the physical representation of one's value.

All this suggests that the fall of the US is because we no longer offer to the world as much as we take and as a result other nations are refusing to give us that which we have not earned.

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

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hm.. i do not know what a substitute would be.. you see, like i've said several time here, i'd be content to run with the wolves, as long as my love was by my side.

then the US should get off its fat cat butt and start WORKING for a living. almost its entire population has to work to survive, so why isnt the US following their example?

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Greetings Alexa~

I have to respectfully disagree with this:

”Money represents what one has earned, which means that he who works the hardest or offers the most to the world has the most money and gets the most back from the world in return”

I don't necessarily see this as reality.  Factory workers, coal miners, food service workers, most blue collar workers work the hardest, are treated the most poorly and earn the least.  Not all, but far too many.  One might argue that if one gets a higher education, one might inevitably earn more money.  Teachers do not earn high income, nor do police officers.  Some earners with a higher education do well, others don't.  Some of it is luck, some is determination.  For every successful professional, there are a thousand matchstick makers; yet, without the matchstick makers we have no matches.  And it is the matchstick makers of this world who live on the periphery of society and without the disposable income to participate fully, yet they work each and every day making those matches. 

The thing is there is no economic equality, not really, nor can there ever really be.  There can only be better than what has happened since Reagan measured a man's worth by his income and Chase Manhattan gave out credit cards like free popcorn at a side show.  One has to find one's own worth in the scheme of things outside of economic status.  The world of credit allowed the cost of goods and services to skyrocket, whether those goods or services were worth the cost or not.  Credit and an out of control consumer based economy broke the lower middle class: those who owned a modest home, owned a modest car, could feed and clothe a family without choosing between bread or shoes, take a vacation to the lake once a year, held a savings account.  These were the factory workers that lived a quiet, decent life on tree lined avenues 40 years ago and are now at the bottom, choosing between paying the electric bill or buying a bag of groceries.  One might argue, as well, that many of the progeny of these lower middle income earners got caught up in the fast paced consumer delusion, but many did not and still they are floundering or at best, stagnated.

If I sought my worth by the money I earned, I would be rather worthless by the standard of this 21st century world's measurement.  Probably I am worth more dead than alive, since my insurance policy is worth more than I make in a decade.  Scary.

But I do agree with the U.S. offering less than what it took, or at least the Dick Cheneys of this country did.

Blessings,
Nahnni

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Nahnni,
':( you really don't think that the people who make the most money are those who work the hardest? Let's look at your examples:
Factory workers-the people who work at a PC factory, each doing a relatively simple task, did they put as much into their job as Bill Gates? The man is putting a price on his mind! Would he have ever put to thought creating microsoft if there wasn't something for him? He offered much more to the world by creating than the people who put his creations together ever did.
Coal miners-again, people doing remedial tasks which any able-minded person could probably do…the men who buy and run these mines, on the other hand, get more money because not everyone could have done what they did…use their minds.
Food Service Workers-Depends on where you eat, really, but let's say you're talking about someone who works at McDonalds…they obviously don't have to use the same mental capacity as someone who works at a up-scale resturant, and consequently don't make as much money.
Teachers-No, some teachers don't get paid enough for the work they do (the teachers who, just like in these other catagories, use their mind and challenge a student should definately be paid much more than the teachers who let you do very little)…can we say “pay for performance”?
Police Officers-I can't say I know much about their wages, but since they're run by the government, it's safe to say it's much like teachers' and would benefit from pay for performance

Anyways, those are just examples of exactly how people who offer the most get paid the most. You mentioned the need of matchstick makers, but what about the need of the man who invented the match? If it weren't for him, there wouldn't be a job for those matchstick makers. This is why it is the people who run the businesses who get the most money, because although the worker is necessary, they are a dime a dozen, but to find someone who can make it so there is a place for them to work is much more difficult because it takes people of intellect and drive.

Reagan celebrated this-he promoted entrepeneurship, finding something that people will pay for and using this to make money. This is capitalism :) I agree that credit cards are not a good idea because they allow people to live outside their means…the thing is, if you can't make money for something, than don't buy it!

Anyways, the question to ask is, if money doesn't represent one's value to the world, what does? Take an artist, for instance, he gets paid in accordance to how much other people value his work…he will demand the highest amount they are willing to pay, no less, and they will pay what they think it's worth, no more. This, than is how he learns just how much he is worth. Likewise, any person can only demand to be paid so much before it is easier to say no or find someone to replace him…and how much this is is determined by how good of a worker he is.

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

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Alexa, I cannot argue with such a Cartesian point of view.  I am not arguing that the inventor of the idea, the company, the etc. does not earn his merit.  But equally, being prosperous does not mean gaining or sustaining wealth through the exploitation of the wage earner, often by way of cutting corners on healthy work environments, freezing wages below basic standard of living, etc.  It does not mean depleting the worker who is, in reality, as dependent on the inventor as the market is on the invention.  It does not mean depleting the environment, allowing mercury to run into fresh water rivers because it cuts into profit, or knowingly allowing human beings to work in an environment which causes ill health to the worker and then refusing to acknowledge responsibility.

Coal miners-again, people doing remedial tasks which any able-minded person could probably do…the men who buy and run these mines, on the other hand, get more money because not everyone could have done what they did…use their minds.

Used their minds to get out of healthy/safe work environment standards, thus causing untold thousands to contract black lung disease or suffocate to death in mine cave ins, most of which could have been avoided and then finding some loophole to get out of compensating the widows and children.  All in the name of profit.

So, enter the new era of coal mining:

On satellite images of the eastern Appalachian mountain chain, one can view what appears to be sores on the Earth's surface.  This is the effect of mountaintop blasting, a cheaper practice used by greedy corporate moguls in gaining the mountain's precious resource of coal.  The method of blasting off mountaintops directly causes the environmental catastrophe of deforestation, polluted water systems, landslides and floods, affecting the whole ecological balance of the region.  The devastation to defenseless surrounding communities as a result of this blasting is profound.

Now, the minds who invented this method are creating a lot of wealth for themselves, I should think.   Sure, the worker doing the blasting could refuse to do it, but then he wouldn't have a job in an area limited in employment resources.  And so workers can be (and are) brought in from other areas, workers who have no stake in the disasters caused by the reckless disregard for environmental balance and human life in the name of profit.

This is what individuals, such as Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., work so hard to overcome.  There are those in high places with conscience, but there are many more who hold the attitude of the dispensable human being and planet.  There are those who do, and likewise do not, look on the world as the privileged against the unwashed masses.

And so I will maintain that one's worth is far beyond the weight of gold.  Profit is not everything, there is ethic and responsibility as well.  The myth of capitalism is that it is an equal opportunity system.  Without its slaves, capitalism does not exist.  And the slave always breaks his back before the master bends over from the pain.

Just my take on the matter.  We will have to agree to disagree philosophically on the measure of one's worth. 

Peace~

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haha…that is fine if you have no drive to contribute to the world or to use your mind to create and be more than our ancesters. But to each their own, I am constantly battling complacency, but if you find no need to search for something greater, by all means, live the way you want.

I don't think it's a matter of how “hard” we work, it's whether our work is wanted by other countries…our work in the wars for example, are gaining us nothing. We are putting our troops in danger and wasting money without the possibility to gain anything. We are being relatively selfless, which is where our problem begins. Yes, it is important to keep the US safe, and I support our troops for fighting for this cause, but are we going to demand payment for the rebuilding we are doing? What have the countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan to offer us? All we know is that they “deserve” to live a democratic life with all of the rights we have, but they're not paying for it! We have certainly wasted alot of resources for moral causes, thinking that money is always going to keep rolling in…we are falling because of this ignorance.

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

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ha! i'd be the member of the wolf pack with the paintbrushes and sneaking into people's WIFI to talk on gaia XD

i dont think those wars were legal in the first place. nearly the entire damn world opposed it, but baby bush went anyway, so he could get his revenge on saddam for trying to kill bush's dad. what a joke. he had no right to invade those countries. they have been under islamic rule and ideals since the dawn of time. what right did HE have to force christian ideals upon them? did he go to school, or was he too high on drugs the entire time? STUDY UP, MAN!! the middle east is a whole different world, bush!

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Jesus said it best.

“He who with out sin, let him cast the first stone.”

America is the new whore and the rest of the world seems to be the angry mob that wants to stone her to death. Everyone is distancing themselves from her in her time of need, even her own people and saying, “that's not me. I didn't help with that mess.” Never mind that many of the people with stones in their hands enjoyed the services and entertainment of these United States, or that they are not so much truely upset at her missgivings as simply putting in her their own sins and sacraficing her as a way to feel less guilty.

I love how people, and this isn't just SillyOldBear, love to just spew nastiness at things like the USA, and then say they are only pointing that hate and dislike at certain parts of it.

This removes our responsablity from the situation. The country that we all built. Let me remind people, that the USA is made up of people from ALL countries. Every population is represented here, even yours that you stand upon so holy and pure of any terrible crimes and missdeeds. The government of our country is the people, and elected by the people.  So when you point your finger at Any here, you DO point at us. We were responsable for their election, their rise to power.

As for the Fat Cat, power players, these imaginatary great and powerful economical OZ's, that are distroying the world with their greed, that have sinned against you and your nations so, they also are our sons and daughters, our brothers and cousins and kin. We all bought the products that made them rich and powerful, they could not BE rich and powerful if we didn't. It is our own greed mirrored in them, for the new flat panel TV, or faster computer, or high speed internet. It is the new DVD we just had to have of that great new show, or the gas we had to buy to get too and from work. It's the credit card we used to buy those things and the stocks we bought and sold to make an extra couple of thousand this year. Every situation has layers upon layers, and it seems that most additudes have always been, all we need to see is the first layer, maybe the second and we can feel better about ourselves and our choices.

Money doesn't make the world go around, money doesn't drive nails, it doesn't plant seeds, it doesn't make TV shows, or baby formula or cocaine. We do. People decide how much it's worth. If you'll trade an apple for one note, that's what the apple is worth.  We talk about these things like we are so far removed from the process. The sad thing is, things get done because we choose to do them. We feel we need the paper, or at least the idea that we might have the paper, as in the case of bank accounts and electronic transfers, to do these things. The world will stop running not because we lack the know how to do these things, but we lack the trust in our own fellow man to believe that he will do his part with out the system there to guide him.

That is how we know we are not evolved enough as a society. We can not find a way to work together out side of checks and balances. No one trusts their neighbors, even though we are all some one's neighbor. This is why America will come crashing down, if indeed it does. 

This whole tread is about pointing fingers. One thing I learned while at one of the many Christain summer camps my mother sent me too because her and my father didn't have alot of money and they were very cheap and easy way for us children to be watched in a safe and friendly environment, was that when you point your finger at some one, you have three pointing back at you.

One thing that always impressed me about Masters like Jesus or Buddha, was that they never gloated. They never said “I told you so”, or “Serves you right”. You reap what you sow. You get what you give.  This is a truth of the universe. It doesn't apply in some things, but in all. The Master's knew that in SO many ways we are ALL connected. Their well being is OUR well being. To gloat or feel happy about anouther's misfortune, weither we believe they deserve it or not, is not seeing the relationship we have with them properly.

The problems are popping up because of this “Let the eye wink at the hand” mentality. Everyone wants to be rich. And by rich I mean that they want all their needs met with out worry or trouble. Most people hope to be monitarily rich, yet it's never given any thought as to what that means.  Sitting on piles and piles and piles of money. We know there's a limited number printed out. It used to be, that money had to be backed by something, like gold or silver. Now it's just made, and we call it inflation. A good word for it, considering all it really is is air. The more people sit on it, the less there is circulated for others to use, and have, making everything more expensive. Now we have complex systems to shuffle it around, like stocks and banks and trade agreements and debts. These are fancy ideas and concepts for pretty simple things. We both trade each other in goods or services we agree to be about the same value. We decide that value together. Over the years the services have gotten more and more complex and imaginary, bankers and book keepers, stock traders and all that good stuff. Shuffling papers, letting the eye wink at the hand. Still, it takes the will of a man with a hammer and a nail to get a house built. What drives that will might be his desire for the cocept of cash, but HE still needs to build the house.

You can change the name, but the game is still the same, the middle class working force is no less a surf, and CEO of his company is no less a land baron, just the concept of how these things work have changed. The standard of living for the surf has gotten better, and so feels less cheated but he still provides the labor that gets the job done while the man above him works the magic of using those goods to profit, by shrewedness or manipulation, deciet or know how.

Anyway, I'm wandering.

Before I close though I just wanted to comment to Alexa about America's war effort and how it provides us with nothing. Nothing is a broad term, you mean nothing in the form of monitary gains, which I think is a very limited view. It's my personal belief, and this is only conjecter(sp), as I wouldn't begin to even guess about the complex information machine that is our media, that we went to war with Iraq so that Cheny could make money, sending over contractors from his companies to “Rebuild Iraq”. A shrewed businessman knows oils almost all used up, and what's left is not going to be sold to America much longer. Rather, he was after the piles of money the rich oil barons over there have been sitting on for years. One thing they will all need is new buildings to replace the ones constantly being blown up by war. At any rate.

The war was also fought because of the hard lesson we learned in WWII. That simply to stay out of world events and let other countries handle their own problems can lead to problems on our end, like the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and Hitler's rise to power. Something many feel we could have helped prevent alot of the heart ache and pain if he hadn't have stayed out of for so long, but we were still feeling the sting of WWI and it's lessons not to interfear. Now more than ever, the old addage, (Thank you Spiderman) “With great power comes great responsablity”, as many a curroupt and dominneering dictator takes power in so many countries around us. Are we to just sit by on our hands and watch the horrors play out? You, and I'm sure many other's would say yes, as we have nothing to gain and we were never specifically petitioned for the help. More over, when we do hop in, just like Spider man or many other super heros, our help is critisized, torn down, and generally used against us. Still, what line do we walk as responsable citiziens of the world?

Yes, I know we only helped in Iraq because they have oil and money, so I'd say we really DID serve our own purposes, and the rest of the world can see that, and it makes us look like greedy money hungry brutes. This is the image you risk displaying with your comments of what we have to gain. Maybe, just once, it would be nice to gain some recognition, some good faith and perhaps do a country some good recognizing not the short term gain of some money right away, and understand that we have done our best to rebuild a country that has the means to be something much more and allow them to flurish and be properious in their own right, and allow them to come up in the world market as some one we could do business with and be on friendly terms with?

Still, all of this boils down to Monday morning quarterbacking. It's so much easier to sit back and pass judgement with out being involved.

I caution people to remeber we are ALL connected. You can stand back and point and laugh, cheer, or just feel smug if you want. Personally I don't think it serves any more purpose than the problems that got the people your laughing at in trouble in the first place.

Re: The Fall of the American Empire

bravo! well said, JustPadric. i appreciate and love this post!

Re: The Fall of the American Empire

JustPadric,
Very good points…I was hoping someone would point out the whole oil issue. It is true that much of the reason we went to Iraq was oil, and you know what, that's a good thing. Greedy? I suppose my comments do denote greed, but you can't buy and apple with “recognition, good faith, or doing a country some good.” Yes, there is the possiblity that someday Iraq will benefit us through trade and such, but for now we are spending money at a loss. When we give our government it's great power, who is it's great responsibility to, the people of it's own country, or the people of other countries? A government's duty, first and foremost, is to the people it leads…any country that thinks otherwise won't last for long. Now that the war has started, however, it is in the interest of ourselves for reasons of safety that we finish the job…I am willing to accept the fact that my country made a mistake, and all that we can gain from it for now is the fact that we were wrong…we can learn from this mistake so that we don't make it again, and, given time and hard work, we can restore our economy.

Now in response to your comments about the US in general.The countries who aren't helping us right now are doing what is reasonable, putting their own needs first. How dare they be so selfish after all we've given them?! The key here is that it's what we've given not what we are giving. They have already paid for what they've received from us…they owe us nothing, and they know it. It is no one's responsibility other than our own to keep this country going…if other countries help us, it is because they will benefit from doing so, if they don't it's because what they would gain is less than the cost they would pay. This is not to mean anything against any of these countries or the US…it's just a fact of life that you don't spend money for something that doesn't have value to you. This brings up the “fat cat CEO's”, where do you think they get all their money? If someone has a ton of money, who am I to to tell them that they can't spend it on whatever they want, they worked hard to get that money by giving to the world something that's wanted/needed for nothing less than people are willing to pay for it. (Oh my gosh, capitalism!) The CEO's are much more than barons…they earn their money from the use of their minds. They run businesses and make it so those businesses make money, and if they didn't make money the workers wouldn't get paid either. Money, as I have said before, is the physical representation of a man's value…you get money for your work, and when you get paid, it is that man's work that is being traded for yours, but only if he considers you work a fair trade. No, money is not equally distributed, but it is distributed fairly; he who offers the most to the world gets repaid with money and can thus get back more from the world. Would it be fair if Bill Gates, who offered us the gift of his mind by creating microsoft, got paid the same as the guy who put in one piece of a computer together in an assembly line? The mind is more expensive than physical labor because it is more useful and harder to find…nearly anyone can be told what to do, but few people can know what to do to tell them to do it. You are right that we can't point fingers, particularly not to those who make the most of the freedom to be the best you can be that America offers :)

Sorry if that's kind of jumbled…I had a response written up and then the whole thing quit, but I think you get the idea.

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

Re: The Fall of the American Empire

The key here is that it's what we've given not what we are giving. They have already paid for what they've received from us…they owe us nothing, and they know it. 


Thank you Alexa!


Shalom,
Dov

Re: The Fall of the American Empire

No problem…just stating facts ;)

Peace and Happiness,
Alexa

Re: The Fall of the American Empire

Sorry for the lateness of my reply, I've been very busy as of recently with my personal life.

 I have wished to point out some observations. I don't see this discussion so much of an argument, as a point counter-point of two very different world views. Many of the things that I speak to, and others in this thread have mentioned, seem to go right over your head, or you just have no interest in commenting on.

Capitalism, is a very one level, physical ideology. It allows humans to remove the humanity from their actions and see things in a purely physical, emotionless and moral-less way. A point, you yourself keep making over and over.

No problem…just stating facts ;)

The countries who aren't helping us right now are doing what is reasonable, putting their own needs first. How dare they be so selfish after all we've given them?! The key here is that it's what we've given not what we are giving. They have already paid for what they've received from us…they owe us nothing, and they know it.

Greedy? I suppose my comments do denote greed, but you can't buy and apple with “recognition, good faith, or doing a country some good.”

No, money is not equally distributed, but it is distributed fairly; he who offers the most to the world gets repaid with money and can thus get back more from the world.

We could go around and around with examples and counter examples for ever and ever.

I personally believe that the problems that America is facing are due to the fact that the principal that Capitalism is built around is flawed. With no solid foundation to build off of, it will, eventually come tumbling down. The universe provides it's own self testing, our disasters and problems are it's evidence. Self reflection is the only way to truly find the awareness needed to overcome these problems.

Capitalism worked for a long time because of the morals of the people who utilized it. As a system it has the ability to work very well if people are willing to step outside of it, and maintain a sense of morality and situational awareness of their environment and their fellow man. Today's capitalism has lost that focus. It's own greed has undermined it's own foundation, and our culture is showing this trend.

Capitalism has always stated that to support itself, those who use it must buy the products it sells, and there for keep the market moving. There, is not any thought to were or how the resources sold will be obtained, manufactured and processed. Willfully we have become parasitic of our own future generations, teaching them the requirement for instant gratifications and ceaseless need for material items. An attitude that is evident all around us.

Selling small children expensive mobile phones, who then run up large bills. Handing out credit card applications to drunken spring break college kids, who max them out before they are even consciously aware that they have acquired them. Cut throat products, that can only be produced in countries who have no moral or ethical employment laws, and so use children, and unfair labor practices to make products that cost less than one hours worth of an American's wages to buy. Any number of these practices and more, which are not illegal, by any man made laws. Capitalism always works on the outskirts of laws, operating in the loopholes, or even pushing the boundaries, the capital itself, the claim to fair dealings.

As you constantly point out, in none of these situations is anyone forced to buy, the products. In every case, the products are marketed to make it as hard as possible for the consumer to understand the risks, and most companies spend a great portion of their earned income in figuring out bigger and better ways to insert themselves into the consumer's wallet.

These people are generally also the one's most concerned with governance because they feel they have the most at stake and can us their postions to errod away at laws and legislation, that our forfathers 200 years ago worked so hard to create iron clad. It's a testiment to their skill that it's taken this long, to start to see the effects, with tacked on ammendments, willfully encouraging the mindless consumer mentality over capable thinking citiziens, allowing apathy in government and social situation in gerneral.

What we are seeing is the Captialist dream realized. We are a nation of mindless consumers, most of our private citizens working away, toiling to create the next bigger and better entertainment to help forget the drudgery of their day to day exsistance. People so mindless of their future, concerned only with instant gratification, and aquiring the next best thing, which capitalism is only to happy to provide, with out thought for how it is undermining their own futures and creating an enless cycle of debt for them and now, the government is working to make sure it also falls on their kin.

When we can't stand toiling in the factory or feild, we have a pill or a drink. We watch a veiw screen full of wonders and distractions. We escape on an expensive personal toy like a car, or ATV, or ski's.

But we do indeed all have houses, and heat, or cool air through the hardtimes. We all have enough food to keep us alive and generally fat. We have luxury, and complain that we can not afford the next best thing, while a great deal of the rest of the world toils for what scraps we will throw them to help build them for us. Hence their hatred. I understand the view, but I was born in the US, and as it stands now, it still offers the best oppertunities for anyone to succeed, such as Capitalism.

Capitalism is not evil, but it does allow people to forget their connectedness to the world they live in. The longer they operate outside of that awareness, the greater the problems that will arise, as we are seeing now. Not doing what is technically wrong, or can be pinned on you as wrong, is not the same as making a moral choice. Laws are a fence we build around our lives at the very borders of problems and injustices. Generally, Capitalists love to lean on these fences, remaining pushing them as much as possible, reaching through them, grasping at the untouched resources on the other side. When the eye of humanity comes back around to them, they generally straiten up and dust off their hands, and can show that they were never fully outside the fence. Most foreward thinking souls, as far as I'm concerned, have no intrest in even being any where NEAR that fence, and do not need to have morality dictated to them. This is the major distinction.

This is where you and I differ most I think Alexa.

Re: The Fall of the American Empire

JustPadric, you have written here a powerful reflection that goes to the very soul of the matter, I think.

I have read over it a couple of times.  Thank you.

Blessings~