The Great Unraveling

As Indiana and California go bankrupt, laying of police and prison guards, both states are seriously considering releasing tens of thousands of convicted inmates onto the streets

Fortunately though,  sales of guns and ammo has increased exponentially as we enter the first phase of social and cultural unraveling.

Yet, have no fear, as immigration declines, at least the racist vigilantes will already be armed to the teeth in order protect us from ourselves.

Because, clearly, we are our own worst enemy.
mikeS

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I don't know, Mike.  We are talking about bureaucrats making that list of non-violent offenders and that's where it gets a little disconcerting.  I have heard it argued that we incarcerate too many for non-violent crimes in this country, when another method of legal repercussion might be as effective.  But again, we are talking about bureaucrats making the decision and bureaucracy is a curious, often non-nonsensical, thing.  Between the criminal justice system and the criminal mind, it seems a revolving circle of craziness.  There are always heated discussions around prison reform.  Perhaps this will force some serious and realistic debate within the conclave of the powers that be, but then you will have the pundits blaming the other guy who is always out to put the good citizen in peril.

Of course, we are our own worst enemy.  That is part of the revolving circle, as well.  The United States is like one of those giant corporations that the inheritors ruin in a generation.  Sometimes, I wonder over the increase in gun sales aside from the repeated “they will take your guns away!” rumors within rumors.  I wonder if the holders and buyers of weaponry could actually define exactly what they are defending anymore.  The right to be a sharecropper, I suppose.  It's what we've all become, to a greater or lesser degree.

What do you think about these impending offender releases? 

Peace~

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These are very hard questions to answer.  My thought is that the overall criminal mindset is a mirror to the overall profit motive with its daughters as endless growth, totalitarian control, brainwashing via the sons: media shows, news and advertisements.  All these with the intent of keeping them “fat, dumb and happy.”  The sociopathology we see on the streets and in the buisness world is naught cept the sociopahology of the larger system.  How do we change?  In my opinion, at the grassroots level.  We have to get past the “it's about me” mentality and begin thinking of 7 generations hence.  I'm wondering, though, does this have anything to do with what you and Mike are talking about?  Somehow I believe it does.  Burl

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Good point, Burl.

In fact, could we not say that the so-called “American Dream” is basically sociopathic? In that sense, the society itself is sociopathic and, therefore, to a great extent, sociopathy is thus 'normalized.' Sociopaths do not empathize with others, however, they do collude with others in fulfilling their own self-absorbed motives. But then, so do criminals.
In fact, as somone mentioned is another thread, we created the system (capitalist) and therefore, as long as we participate in it, we support sociopathy.

We are a nation of socipaths.

Seems a bit of a leap, but hey, if the shoe fits…
mikeS

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Nahnni,

Good point. Many years ago I worked as a 'counselor' in a prison. Most of the offenders I dealt with were convicted of drug crimes. In fact, I recall reading a statistic that close to 80% of U.S. convicted felons are incarcerated for non-victim drug crimes (possession, use, distribution, sale, conspiracy to commit, blah, blah, blah).
I don't want to get on my soapbox about the drug war (STUPID!!). However, if you release thousands of offenders from prisons, how will they support themselves?

Clearly there is a large market for drugs which could provide a great deal of revenue for the states, as well as, provide jobs for released inmates who have production, sale and distribution experience (not to mention the collective happiness for all those suffering from unemployment)

So, clearly, our answer to resolving the next great depression - legalize drugs!

My friends you laugh, but recall that alcohol prohibition was repealed in 1933 at the height of the depression.

In fact, that future is already upon us - “Legal Pot Would Bring in 1.4 Bill. for Calif”
Of course, California is in the red to the tune of 26 billion. Therefore, consider heroin and cocaine next in line to be 'legal.'

I see the future and it will be….
mikeS

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Mike,
Is the American Dream to be anti-social, or is it to deal with those you want to deal with and ignore only those you don't want to deal with? Is it sociopathic not to want to deal with everyone, to choose who you want to deal with based on your own judgment? If so, every one of us who wouldn't want to spend our days making deals with liars and cheats are sociopaths! Tell me where and why choosing our friends is bad, even if it can be defined as sociopathic?

I agree 100% on the legalization of drugs…if people are going to do them anyways, why not tax the crap out of them and use that money for good causes?

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Alexa,

Yes, my last post was tongue-in-cheek hyperbole. However, the height of egocentricity would, in fact, be considered sociopathic. I think Burl is correct in that there is much normalized sociopathy in corporatism, which is really the type of capitalism we experience today. A coporation is a non-entity that helps redirect human responsibility and culpability. In other words, corporations help offset human guilt. Corpoations, which generally create wealth for individuals, are socipathic and bear no responsibility for the social fabric or infrastructure. Obviously, as you know, unchecked corporatism can lead to fascism, as in Mussolini.

Essentially if one chooses friends based on social class or wealth, then essentially one may in fact be colluding with sociopaths. That is, if a large percentage of the wealthy classes care not a speck for the sick and impoverished. This is just bigoted prejudice and it is alive and strong in America.

I really don't subscribe to social darwinism and a society in which only the fittest survive. The “American Dream” has generally, by now, been accepted as a myth by most social commentators. Essentially, it seems delusional to think that 99% of the population should live their lives aspiring to join the rishest 1%. Of course, no doubt this apsiration has resulted in technological advances. Unfortunately technology may destroy us and certainly has not made us good neighbors, since more war and destruction has occured in the 20th century than any other century previous (statistically speaking) and I imagine that may not subside anytime soon. Recall, that it was not FDR's “New deal” that brought us out of the great depression, but WWII and the mobilization of the military industrial complex.

That is a chilling thought to consider as we enter the next great depression.
mikeS

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Mike,
Yes, corporations have their faults, but where is the line drawn between “good business” and “sociopathy?” Does a business have the responsibility to help the little guy if, in doing so, it hurts itself? That's what I meant by “friends”, friends in business…so the question is, are your friends in businesses the best you can afford, or the guy who needs your business the most? As far as social prejudices go…I've not given money to a bum on the street, but I do give money to organizations I feel deserving, this isn't social prejudice, just choice.

I think we are talking about different dreams. While you are talking about the dream to merely “be rich”, I am talking about the dream to be the best you can be by your own means…to sink or swim without having to answer to anyone…the dream that, if I make my own money it's my gain, and if I lose money it's my loss. This dream is lost when the government is asked to bail out the failures, and takes money from the gains….heck, maybe that's not the American Dream, it may just be to egotistical for some people to say that one can rely on their own judgement and doesn't need the government to determine where their money goes…but it is certainly my dream.

As for the war, it is sobering to think that that is what is needed to drive an economy foward…

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

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Alexa,

Ooops, I guess we are talking about different dreams, since I have no problem with “to be the best you can be by your own means.” However, culture is communal and we all answer to someone and not always of our choosing.
“The American Dream has been credited with helping to build a cohesive American experience but has also been blamed for overinflated expectations. The presence of the American Dream has not historically helped the majority of minority race and lower class American citizens to gain a greater degree of social equality and influence. Instead, the American wealth structure has often been observed to sustain class differences in which well-positioned groups continue to be advantaged.”   (WIKI)
This is the sociological rendering of the “American Dream” which, at one time, seemed feasible and attainable. However, as the margin between rich and poor widens, many become disillusioned. Collective disillusionment breeds chaos since now we must seek out an alternative anchor.
But that's good. In fact, I believe a 'bottoming' must occur for the healing process to commence. Unfortunately, the government is refusing to allow the nation to bottom and only at the bottom will we identify and purge our excesses.
Thanks,
mikeS

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Mike,
I followed the wiki link, the first paragraph highlights the flaw in what it describes as the dream…”citizens of every rank feel that they can achieve a “better, richer, and happier life.” The idea of the American Dream is rooted in the second sentence of the Declaration of Independence which states that “all men are created equal” and that they have “certain inalienable Rights” including “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”” Just because everyone has the right to the pursuit of happiness doesn't mean that everyone is going to be happy…the dream needs to be recognized that everyone can lead better, happier lives if they work towards it, but happiness cannot be given. That is what Americans are becoming aware of, and you're right, we must all come to this point, letting go of the idea that just because we're Americans we're entitled to all of life's happiness no matter what we do to earn it. The government is preventing people from seeing this by “spreading the wealth” so that everyone has the same opprotunities. Once we quit using the government as a crutch and recognize that happiness can only come from oneself, then we will have reached bottom, and in doing so open the path to happiness.

And that's my interpretation of what I think you meant…I hope it makes sense :)

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

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as long as they are releasing criminals who have not murdered, raped, or molested people (which i KNOW they will anyway to save a buck, then go right around again and spend thousands AGAIN putting  them back through the justice system, which is a circle of wasted money) then  i can see why. being put in the slammer for drugs is a waste of space. that is what REHAB centers are for. 

there are other people in the jails that shouldn't be there wasting space for petty crimes, but they are, because the law feels they have to arrest EVERYONE for EVERY crime, petty or otherwise.

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Whew, a lot to all these posts.  I'll take responsibility for bringing up the term sociopath.  What is this label about from my understanding?  First, we are very short-term, profit oriented in our sight.  When we make a decision about a chemical plant, for example, we are more likely to look at short term consequences including how much a corporation can make, and, more important to the community and less important to the corporate heads, jobs.  Now jobs do indeed lead to a higher standard of living.  However, since the Regan area, pay and benefits has went down in this country and the shipment of jobs overseas for low pay and no benefits has went up.  In other words, the emphasis is on short term gain at the expense others. This is self-centerdeness and is what I consider sociopathic.  Contrast this with the ancient tribal decision making process which looked out for the good of 7 generations.  Furthermore, even in the short run, the land and water was not wasted, nor the animals and fish on that land, for it would have (a) a devestating effect on the population of people and (b) the world operates as a whole rather than being a compilation of what Dawkins calls “Selfish genes.”  Dawkins basically has an image of genes in line with our corporate mentality.  Selfish.  “It's all about me!” 

Now there are those that have researched and argue that genes are not necessarily selfish, but instead operate for the good of the whole.  This makes sense from a survival point of view also.  A fetus who poisons his mother's body is going to die.  The corporations that pollute, and who have no values regarding human, animal, or earth well being, are ultimately going to die with the rest of us.  According to the ancient axiom, “those who live by the sword die by the sword,” the same will happen in our corporate world.  Our materialistic, progress at all costs, are going to cost US dearly.  In swallowing up the world in our technology, we are going to get swallowed up.  This isn't due to some crazy angry God up there.  It is just the way the universe works.  In Hindu, this is called Karma, or Consequence.  We have all kinds of signs that the Earth is suffering.  We have an increase in extinction rates, ice caps are melting, and so on and so forth.  Meanwhile, we, due to (a) not wanting to give up a lifestyle and (b) not willing to give up our profit, endless growth motive.  We have to realize that we are not Kings of this planet but are rather cells in it.  Nor should we think of ourselves as the most intelligent of species.  Intelligence is Natural Process, in my opinion.  If anything, we are the egos of the Earth.  But, as anyone who goes beyond the ego realizes, there is a much deeper intelligence that inhabits every cell of our being, and of all of Nature.  While we may have theories about how a cell develops, and those theories tend to change according to our ways of looking at life over time, the fact is every cell knows its job and knows how to from.  A fetus doesn't need a book to unfold and to know when to be born.  It all just happens.  What I'm saying here is that we are cells in the Cosmic Mind / Body and not the Kings of it.  Our sociopathology is in our heigthened arrogance in thinking we are IT and that everything else is expendable if it does US good.  This is how I'm defining sociopathology.  Sit and do a rerun of Bush's “shock and awe” campaign speach.  Look at his face, the joy in his overtaking of a people, of creating pain for his sadistic pleasure.  Yet, to the public, he called it shock and awe?  Shock and awe?  You mean if a bomb is falling on your 3 year old baby's head you're going to respond “Wow!  I sure am awed by the power of those american jets!”  Some of us call this behavior sociopathic murder, not shock and awe tactics.  This is such a big issue and I feel inadequate to speak to it intelligently.  Burl 

Re: The Great Unraveling

bensoph,
You say take responsibility for bringing up sociopath as if these discussions are a bad thing, on the contrary, thank you…I have such fun on this pod finding people who think differently than me and then figuring out the common ground behind ideas :)

As for selfishness, the selfish gene or whatever else you want to call it, it is one of the single most necessary aspects of human existance. Why doesn't the fetus not poison its mother? Because it would be an end to itself! Why didn't (don't, depending on who you're talking about) people waste resources and choose instead to treat the earth well? Because it would eventually hurt them! So, where is the problem with coporations? They forget to think about themselves in every aspect…they are selfless in that they forget the importance of self and replace it with money. The twisted tactic behind this is that when one forgets to think of their self, they are hurting the selves of others too…What would happen if we were all thinking of the conseqences of our actions to the fullest extent to see if they could ever hurt us?

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

Re: The Great Unraveling

My immediate rushed response is that I need to sit a bit with what you're saying, here.  I have to reread and chew on it before I respond.  You're definitely making good points, and an automatic voice came into my head saying “it's both / and” more so than “either / or.”  In other words, to be self-serving we also have to be universe / nature serving.  Indeed, are our children's children's children an extension of ourself?  In other words, are we more than just this body and brain.  Or, are we, as stated in one of the Upanishads, “the entire world.”  So, if we look out for the environment and for the people, do we also look out for ourselves? 

Re: The Great Unraveling

I think that it is not that we must be universe-serving to be self serving, but rather that we must be fully self-serving to be fully universe-serving. We ourselves have to want to serve the universe (and to want is selfish, mind you). Each person who chooses to serve the universe, to care for the world, or anything along those lines has a reason to do so…why do we protect rare ecosystems? Because we want to! Whether that want is because we love nature (and we want to share it with our children), or we merely love ourselves and recognize what would happen to us if it's gone, the people who take care of the world are those who want to…they are selfishly looking out for what they love-nature and the world. And, because we are all connected to the world, it is blind unselfishness that makes people forget the results of their action to that which is themselves.

haha…twisted and confusing, but I love it
Alexa 

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I think we may be saying the same thing.  At least close to it.  I wonder in the land of non-duality is there truly a selfish and a not selfish.  One of the Upanishands reads something to the effect of:

It is above,
It is below,
It is, in fact,
this entire world….

And, when one realizes this,
one know bliss in the self.”

My paraphrase on this ancient sacred writing.  I think our mistake is in not realizing the unity of the self in here and the Self out there as being one….in fact, if you think about how you are conceiving these words in your Soul's womb right now, then what's in here and what's out there are one. 

So, to be Selfish would be to love all, as Christ proposed?  Why else would we have statements like “Love your brother / sister AS Thyself.”  Does this mean to pretend that thy Brother and Sister are separate from yourself so you pretend to love them as thy self or, does it mean, like the Upanisahds, that Thy neighbor IS Thyself.  Is this another “Yes” dichotomy?

I think, though, our ignorance is in not realizing All as the Self.  So, we destroy ecosystems due to a growth at all cost mentality, as a cancer destroys a body through it's “growth gone wild” mentality.  Is a cancer truly self-serving in its destruction of the body?  Or does it die right alongside the body?  I ask this question for I see our current day growth at all cost mentality as cancerous, or in another term, sociopathic. 

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Yes, I think we are very much on the same page…and because I love quoting Rand, and I've always found the connection between love thy neighbor as thyself to this: “To be able to say 'I love you' one must first be able to say the 'I'. We cannot love if we don't acknowlage that it is a choice of ourselves to love…and to love is, as you said, to recognize that thy neighbor is thyself. You must be both an individual and a whole of the world…haha, it is beautiful that these can  all be true, no?

Nothing survives from killing that which it is a part of, but lives have been saved by removing a poisoned part of itself. We cannot kill the earth because we are a part of it, and we cannot cling to the parts of ourselves that are evil.

“I am me as you are he and we are all together”
Alexa

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Where to post and what to post, yes Burl, lots going on and hard to keep up or follow along. I am chiming in nonetheless probably out of order and more than likely in the wrong thread. I am doing so impulsively and out of emotionally irritability on the subject and views. 

As a Fist Nation person living in “Canada”, these are interesting subjects to listen into predominated from Americans. Apparently life is shity for many of us globally…sucks don’t it? I come from one of the “poorest” reserves in Canada…so my windowed perspective and rant chimes in with this heart, so be warned.  

Welcome to my world!  

I took my afternoon nap the other day with the TV on and was interrupted by your dear Oprah. If I could have found my remote in the sheets, I would have not turned it off but rather flung it at the tube in hopes to ping someone or specifically her guest Suzan Orman or as she kept referencing herself, Suze’s! I have seen this gal before, admit that I know little of her but recall her best from SNL skits. What a trip she is.  

So according to these two ladies, all we got do is cut back to the bare bones with the likes of manicures, haircuts and makeup buying! If we do this accordingly we can get through this economic crisis! At one point I recall laughing in my sleep. Oprah and Suze, telling me how to cut back to the bare bones, now that is hysterical.  

I don’t know if I felt like killing them but a good poke in the head would feel just as fine. I am determined to phone home to the rez and let them know, we have had it wrong these last 500 years. Just cut the manicures back to every few months and we will be okay, clean water will flow again, I suddenly feel optimistic with it all and the thought of how many young lives we will save!

Annoyed as I was, I get the message but believe this would have been more effective coming from the town drunk. Or better yet an actual homeless person on the streets. How and the world do we honestly think we can change our consumption patterns? Burl flirted with the idea and power of marketing, we the intellects we are, fell for this dazzle and I believe where it started to spiral out of control.  

Okay, so it is not the entire escape but marketing and advertising is a critical component for a capitalistic culture to breed and spread. The marketing game is one of delusion and its goal is to make us believe that excess anything necessitates over all, even our own moral values and judgments. We make up our personal and state value with “stuff”.  The more “stuff” I have, the better I am and the less you are.  

 In the early 1900’s with the opening of Marshall Fields in the US, money was invested in this little magic show of marketing to trick us into believing that we had the right to it all, the classic American Dream. Theatrical productions and orchestra’s played on each floor luring us in, ground breaking mind control shit at its best. The problem is we never got out of this commercial, we continue to live in this delusional pop video world and multi million cinema movie. The marketing game allows the delusional to remain delusional and prefers us like this, in fact it depends on this. As long as I got my latest “?”, I am going to be okay!  

Selling this delusion of everything is okay, is the mastermind component to capitalistic cultures, as is religion. William James erected this theory best of mind cure religions and movement in his book, Varieties of Religious Experience. Just pretend it doesn’t exist and everything is okay and sunshine and butterflies are beautiful and that is all that matters.  

We created our own capitalist culture disaster in the last century and saved our asses in the last depression with a heavy hit to the environment. I wonder what we will have to sacrifice now to save our asses this time? It took us a century to get here and suspect it will take another century to get out of here. I wonder if the planet will wait patiently by for us to get our heads out the clouds or from you know where else. Anyone of the belief that this is a little bottom out and life will go back to “normal” has their head up their arse.

Anyway…I do find the whole “the world is falling apart” scenario rather ethnocentrically heavy in view with a continued complacent irresponsibility in tow. It has fallen apart already for many, for some of us the shock and horror has subsided and denial turned reality a few hundred years ago. Funny, when it is the darn “ enter any group you don’t like here” there is a reason or cause for their current situation in which we get to remain distant from, blame for or remain in denial of. I apparently suffer laziness and drunkenness, or whatever bull shit you heard or take up in your little head.

But who you do you blame now, “America”.

The craziest thing in my head these days runs like this, “I think this may be a good thing in disguise.” I know this crises is hard, horrible and wrenching and more so I know how real it is. An economic shift out of one’s control is horrifying to experience, I know…  

I wonder what your president Hoover would think about the state of affairs today? I personally cant’ wait until uncivilized and primitive becomes cool, perhaps we can start a new advertising firm!  

Allan Durning asked it best, “How Much Is Enough?” If we accept this notion that we need to dramatically shift our attitudes and consumption patterns we best start with a examination with the loved ones and alike we are hanging with these days. A house clearing may be in order as we might just need to go back to simple human relationships to entertain ourselves to fill the coming void.  

We have rational for everything…so what is the point!  

I am joining andrew’s new pod…we are screwed and deserve it!

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hey bro, right on! but alas, because i have no hope, there is not much hope that i will create that pod…….

but come on dude! we did bring ice cream! okay, small consolation for 500 years of brutality i agree……..

i think wilber would say that level one (materialism) has created massive distortions within the ego of humanity, this seems to have been played out in the ridiculous example you gave of one of the richest women in the world preaching a bare bones lifestyle. yeah, it's fucking ridiculous all-right……..not that i want to get into oprah bashing, but come on……………..

you make another good point about our conditioning from birth being more like mind-control by the wall st. elite….so the dealer has cheated and the house is going to make sure you loose, this is why i think it's imperative that people claiming higher levels of consciousness (levels 678) make clear choices about the wealth they generate and how they use that wealth ( it should be clearly used for the common good and not to satisfy level one impulses)….i hope integral is listening……

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aw, you're not starting a pod, andrew? even if we say pwetty pwease? :)

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Yes, we are screwed.  And, we are screwed up.  I can't say that I KNOW the experience of the natives.  I grew up in Baltimore where the majority of the population was black.  While I would talk intimately with blacks about their experience, I also would never say that I KNOW their experience.  I come from a working class background and grew up extremely angry towards “The Man.”  Never was much of one for television, except during those times of my life that I used it as a narcotic to zone out from the day-to-day world of meeting the expectations of everything except my life's purpose.  Regarding the uncivilized….I do think it's cool though I lack the skills to truly say I'm there.  Do I think we need to learn from the old tribal ways of living?  Absolutely.  I do believe, Denim, that all the pain you speak of in being a Native, many of us do feel though it may be more deeply unconscious.  I look at the history of Celtic and pre-Celtic Ireland, and what happened with them with the Romans, the British and so on.  OUr lives for the past 4 - 5,000 years has become a massive cancerous tumor eating everything living in its wake.  This is what technology and the empirical mindset has done.  Speaking personally, and not so much from reason, I think we all need to go into the woods, strip ourselves naked, and reclaim ourselves in relation to Nature.  Nature, as the word entails, is our Essence.  It is only in the reclaimoing of Nature as the Self that we can truly know who we are.  At this point, the Irish tribes, the American tribes, and the African and Oriental become one. So, in our diversity, can we reclaim this unity?  I think so.  We just need to bite off each other's fig leafs and get past this fear of nudity that we have.  Take care, Burl

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Burl,

I'm not so sure I agree with the return to nature argument. This is considered by the integralistas as the “pre/trans fallacy” in that, by returning to more primitive perspective, we can somehow achieve harmony.
It's true that technology has made killing more exponentially feasible, yet tribal warfare existed long before recorded history.
I love nature and certainly nature has the tendency to appear harmless and peaceful. Nevertheless, nature kills and has a history of wiping out entire populations. Of course, we could say that destruction is not the purpose of nature, but this does not negate the fact that nature does destroy and with no mercy. At least mankind has the potential for mercy if he would ever come to his senses. Nature affords no such luxury. Maybe if we stop emulating nature, we will finally learn to be merciful?
I often wonder why so many spiritually minded people seek to fully engage with nature rather than each other.  This often leads me to believe that most spiritual ideology has been devised to “spiritually bypass” one another and nature has made such bypassing very easy.

But I only question and do not pass judgment…
mikeS

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andrew, you took away what little hope I had…bummer!

Burl…I am with ya, running for hills!

mike…maybe you just gotta try talking to a tree to understand it!

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But my dear Denim, trees don't talk.

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On the contrary my friend, they do indeed talk, oh how they do!

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Ok, I'll take your word for it.

I suppose as long as it's just the trees talking, you're fine.

Sorry, I'm a little biased because I work in the mental health field.

mikeS

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in regard to the back to nature viewpoints - i think it could be rather naive… because it isn't nature that will improve our quality of life, but our relating. 
i agree with mike in some ways, that often there is an element of spiritual bypassing in retreating to nature to commune “there”… and indeed i am sure that it is quite possible to want to remain there because it is simply easier in a way to avoid those pesky human relationships and complex problems.

but i don't think there is anything wrong with temporarily bypassing difficult subconscious and unconscious relating with human beings with stress and the running into conceptual walls, one after another - to take a breather from it - and relax awhile with something which is not so contrived…. (at least one side of the communing isn't contrived… the human part may be - but the natural part has no agenda other than to exist in an ever changing elemental metamorphosis - and that is actually an assumption i am making - and i am not entirely sure about it - maybe there are agendas in the natural world… other dimensions of being and consciousness etc that i am not aware of).

i would love to have an awareness of the trees speaking - i have heard other people speak of them as the “standing nation”.  and i know people who are entirely convinced that there is consciousness of some form there… and conscious relationships between nations - the “two legged”human , the “four legged” animal, the “standing” the elementals of the sky, weather, thunder beings etc etc…, the elementals of bodies of water, of stones… etc. 

as i said, there are a lot of people in the world that have these ideas (and possibly experience) deeply integrated into their lives… and i know the wilberian thing - it being a primitive tribal magical viewpoint - with other more “mature” viewpoints transcending them… but i am not convinced about wilber's models of consciousness.  i suspect (and would like to believe) that there is a lot unseen and ungrasped by our usual five senses in time and space.

ah… and yet - right now - i am not prepared to give up the car, nor am i willing to gather and hunt or plant for all of my food and never use the grocery store, i am not willing to give up electric heat, nor the hot running water, nor the computer, plastic garbage bags, plastic plastic all around me, and a flushing toilet and toilet paper….

there may come a day though, when the cars will be still and rusting, the shelves of the grocery store empty, with broken windows and barred doors, where there is no internet signal, no running water - hot or cold… except the water in the ravine… full of its life - tiny living things that may make double over with cramps and diahorrea if i drink it…

if i were thrust more directly in the natural world - i do not know if i will find it as idyllic as i would like to think….  we have lost much in our ability to live closely with the natural world.

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very good christine, you've stated the conundrum quite elegantly. which is why i like the idea of keeping an open mind to all possibilities rather than being dismissive….pixies, elementals, fairies, dwarfs and such; hey, good be, i personally doubt it but i wouldn't say never….angels, demons, jinn, prophets, jesus; not sure that's all pre-rational drivel……….the closet we've gotten to complete annihilation by the human hand is the manipulation of the atom, so scientific rationalism has a lot to answer to……..

having said all that, barring some serious errors in judgement as far as general orientations go, i still think ken's right on the money with the pre/trans fallacy, but i don't hold any belief too tightly and i am always open to new data…..the hugh mother ship landing on the white-house lawn may alter my opinions……lol

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Mike:  I too am in the mental health field.  I'm currently working with families with kids at risk for out-of-home placement, generally kiddie jail.  I have also worked with mentally ill folks.  Regarding trees talking, I personally have never had a tree say, “why hi there Burl, what ya doin down thar?”  Yet, I went off a snowmobile trail the other day in Seboomook Maine, which is a very backwoods kind of place (and which in October my wife and I are hosting a Healing Heart, Healing Earth weekend).  Anyhow, when I describe the experience on the trail, I will often use words like “the silence of the place shouts the Glory of the Gods.”  Does this mean the silence shouts, “Hey there Burl, wow! Dude, the Gods are wonderful!”.  No.  Rather, the silence shouts it's self through a language that is beyond human ego's comprehension.  I say ego for in the silent depths of us all, lying between the heart beats, that same silence shouts our name.  My favorite Christian, Meister Eckhart, once stated, “all creatures SHOUT God.”  You have to listen with the ears of Nature to hear Her speak from your core of silence.  Listen for human speech in Nature, then you won't hear that primal SHOUT of Silence and hence all things and will, find yourself taking meds.

I think, too, that being in what the Hindus call the Kali Yuga, or Dark Age, we aren't able to hear what the ancients heard.  We confuse our egos with Mind and hence have created a God in that egotistical image (e.g., one that wipes out a population because we have pissed him off).  Yet, our Karma IS creating our demise.  Our actions, which stem from faulty perceptions, have consequences.  Do you really think we are in good shape?  Or are we, as Eric Fromm alluded to in “Escape From Freedom”, a culture that is mentally ill by allowing the likes of Hitler, Bush, and the mechanical corporations to take charge of our lives.  Are we, like a cancer, destroying its host body and hence its self?  Have we, in not knowing our deepest, natural powers, escaped from Freedom?  What are the drivers to that?  Is it easier to surrender ourselves to the Man (the Bankers) and to the Status Quo?  Dare you question the mechanistic and dead precepts of the mental health field and hear the Teachings of the Trees, or the Music of the Spheres?  I entice you to go into the Silence.  You will hear the Teachings…emanating from all the religions, the deep sciences (e.g., the quantum physics of the Heisenberg, Bohm, et al) and mystical philosophy sing as one in every tree that you listen to deeply.   

At my ripe old age of 55, I think the mental health field oftentimes mirrors the reductionistic, mechanical and the standardized modes of doing things in our culture (e.g., standardized testing).  Does Nature standardize, etc.  Yes.  There is one way to make a baby (intercourse) but many routes of enjoying that one way (hanging upside down from the rafters).  Nature banks on diversity, creativity, and constant change to get a job done….and it is through the chaos of creativity that the world maintains consistency.  Hence, no two pines are alike and, in Nature, all things have multiple functions.   If you walk 3 steps in a forest you will find yourself in a totally different place.   But, yet, in our schools, we tend to want to standardize education….a one shoe fits all kind of thing.  Well, they say, we have different modules.  Eh?  Put the kid in a modular box.  What would it be like if we all saw the universe as a creative dance?  Take care.  Burl 

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Hey Burl,

I'm glad to hear about your hosting the Healing Heart, Healing Earth Weekend. I hope you enjoy nature with many others. Because, as I see it, until we can find the means, and the will,  to heal each other, nature is essentially doomed, and we along with it. The whole is indivisible, yet we find so many ways to remain apart from each other. As long as we continue to abuse and neglect each other, what hope for nature? A house divided must fall (with much collateral damage).

I have no issue with nature (actually I also live in the 'woods' of the Pocono Mts of NE Penna). If “all creatures shout God,” does that exclude humans? Human speech calls for God too and every word is a shout for love when you listen between the lines. Yes, the silence is valuable, yet if it drowns out the human call for healing it may be counterproductive, even for nature.

Just saying…
mikeS

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Holy cow, do you all work in the mental health field! “Spiritual bypassing”, I don't even know what the heck that means to be honest. “Avoidance”, now I get that! However, I ran to rural isolation for many more reasons than avoidance, yes I have limited my interaction with the pesky humans and fairly relieved. The only arsehole I have to deal with out here is myself and I am a handful and enough. AND…I was pretty darn good at avoidance in the big city just as I am here.

I don't know about living in nature as described as simple. That was the amusing and startling point I discovered. Living simple is actually quit hard, a whole lot more difficult than I could have ever imagined. I have no buttons to push out here to do the work for me!

At one point in my life if someone told me they talked to trees, I would have smiled respectfully and than mocked the poor fool behind their backs. Today, now that I hear the trees…not a chance! Today I want to hear all about it, may not always get it but I am open to it.

I agree, best to keep an open mind with life. Tree talkers don't scare me as so much as folks who are so darn sure of themselves, now that is scary.

And if I turned crazy…holy shit…I totally recommend it! I like myself a whole lot better a little crazy!

Relax…and run into the hills bare arse, talk to a tree…c'mon now….give it a try!

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Yea Buddy! 

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However, I ran to rural isolation for many more reasons than avoidance, yes I have limited my interaction with the pesky humans and fairly relieved.

Spiritual bypassing is avoidance and quite often it's avoidance of people. In general, I don't think we all really like each other very much (not to mention our own 'self') and we certainly don't trust one another. But that's a conditioned behavior from childhood. The emotional scars of childhood run deep.
Turning to nature in avoidance of people could be bypassing if we deny that is the reason. I suppose if we engage in nature for other reasons, it would not be avoidance. My sense is that many spiritualists turn to nature in fear of other people. I have no problem running bare-assed necked through the woods, as long as you run with other people and not just the wolves.

So what do the trees tell you?
mikeS

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Oh!

Than I am most certainly spiritually bypassing, good to know. As I have shared with you before mike, I am not all that into people, so your theory holds some water perhaps. I am much more into the likes of engaging with young people and kids….refreshing stuff them little ones.

So if I am bypassing all this scary dark deep shit from my childhood and stop the bypassing, what is my big prize?

So what are the trees telling me?

“mike is a cheeky buger but you gotta love him”

I will let you know if I hear anything more but I may need to check in with my little people first!

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If you 'bypass' that would be your own evaluation, not mine.

There is no “prize.”

However, the trees you speak with are very wise.

mikeS

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What no prize! Everyone is selling a promise and a prize mike, even you folks in the mental health field…no?

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Oh your so gloomy tonight mikeS…what's up! OMG…you live in the woods…I pegged you for the concrete jungle…

I learn something new everyday!

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Actually, born and raised in Filthadelphia, Penna. However, in order to escape the hell of my family of origin I ran into the woods (with clothes on, unfortunately).

So I have both the city and the 'woods' in me.

However, I did come to realize that essentially there is no escape and, as one bright mind put it, “no matter where you go, there you are.”

The Prophet of Gloom and Doom,
mikeS

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Dear Prophet of Doom and Gloom:  I think you are wonderful in your thoughts.  I can see a depth there, and hopefully can challenge you to go into those depths, not in any self-righteous sort of way, but in a way that can lead to self-reflection and questioning.  I speak this for you as I speak it for myself.

In many of your posts, I see where you distinguish people from Nature.  Are we truly separate?  If we take the term Nature, it has really two conotations:  (1) Birds, bees, and coconut trees and (2) Essence.  So, when we say it “is in our Nature to…” we are saying it is in our Essence.  Now are these two definitions separate?  In my humble opinion, “no.” 

Indeed, I would say that our “growth” mentality so immanent in our business and political fronts show ourselves to be a cancerous growth on the planet.  What is cancer?  It is growth gone wild.  It is when healthy cells start attacking the body that they make up.  What are we doing?  Endless growth.  At what point will the Earth herself be dead?  So, the question is, and in honesty, your posts make me ask this, are we a cancer that can see what it's doing and realize that if the host body dies, that we go right along with it?  Or, perhaps this is a necessary condition for the Earth.  Perhaps this is all part of a process of renewal.  Being a gardener, I know that decaying matter is the mother - ground for new life. 

I also think more in terms of metaphor, where as I think the majority of folks, and I hear this of the brilliant minds of folks on groups like this, are more concrete in thinking.  What do I mean by metaphor?  I mean what epistomologist Gregory Baetson means, “Language that Connects.”  As such, when ancients worshipped Mother Goddesses, folks in our concrete age (a metaphor for the technology and the non-living) would think that the silly ancients were literally worshipping a woman up in the sky somewhere.  However, looking at a woman's body metaphorically, one sees Universal Process.  One sees flowers and trees and bumble bees coming from the “Ground of Being”.  One even understands the relationship of the term concept to the process of conceptualization and hence why the Soul is often described in mystical circles as a Lady (aka, Cinderella, Snow White, etc. who wind up falling in love with Love, or Eros).

But we, in our divisional world ask, “Mirror Mirror on the Wall, who is the fairest of them all.”  Well the Russians say “WE ARE.”  And the US says, “WE ARE” and so on and so forth.  And who is the true Beauty?  Psyche Herself.  The Soul.  See how metaphor works.  If you understand one, you understand it all.  Hence, human cannot be separated from Nature.  Why?  Because Nature is Essence.  

Anyway, my wife calls me to Breakfast.  Great conversation.  Go deeper, Mike.

Burl

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In many of your posts, I see where you distinguish people from Nature.

No Burl, I don't make that distinction, the distinction has been made for centuries and is available for all to see. The gap between man and nature is wide.

I merely suggest that to close that gap one need not vilify man by escaping into the worship of nature. This is nothing more than idolatry.

Yet, I do not suggest that you or any other commenter on this thread engages in worshiping nature over man. However, I do think it is clear that in many spiritual ideologies there is a theme of human vilification. My recommendation is that to finally engage deeply with nature, we must engage deeply with each other.
That rift must be repaired first. To be saved, the experience of nature must be shared and this is why I applauded your Healing Heart, Healing Earth gathering of others.

Nature's arms are always open to embrace us. Loving nature is easy as Sunday morning.

Loving humanity, however, may take a bit more work from humanity. Unfortunately, many find humanity unworthy of love, simply because they find humanity unworthy. We cannot save the earth until we gain the desire to save each other. I have even heard it said, by other nature lovers, that the extinction of man would be a benefit. For these folks, and there are many, humanity is despicable.

I believe this opinion will inevitably spell natures doom. To be saved the experience of nature must be shared. Unfortunately, we are not very good at sharing. To go deeper into nature is to go deeper with others. Nature will not be saved through solitude with nature.

Thanks,
mikeS

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Mike:  You're wonderful.  Yes, we must love ourselves, and, you're right, it is hard to do in the wake of political, ecological, industrial nightmares.  Now, I would never wish for humanity to go extinct, other than if it means that we evolve into a more loving and world embracing creature.  I guess I don't see humanity as separate from Nature, which is why I'm always bringing up that Nature means Essence.  Nature and Man are not two.  Man is Nature in human form.  But, does this mean that cells in the being of Man don't question what we are doing, not out of rejection of the species, but because we do indeed know that a cancer without an awareness of what it is doing will destroy it's self as well as the body that it attacks.  By saying cancer, I'm not saying humanity is evil.  Cancer cells are regular cells that have gone wild in their growth.  So, what I'm saying is that by becoming aware of what we are doing, and ground ourselves in love for ourselves and the body of the Earth, then we can heal and our healing will be one with the Earth. 
Thank you for the comment on the Healing Heart, Healing Earth weekend.  We are in alignment, they are one healing.  Interestingly, if you switch the “h” on Earth to take the place of the “E” and the “E” to take the place of the “H,” we have both words pointing to each other.  Is that an accident?  Take care.  Burl

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Burl,

I think we are generally in alignment. Certainly man is not separate from nature. Yet, I only suggest that until man joins with man, nature must suffer that split.
I also posit humanity's split with itself as first cause, requiring that reunification first, before any return to nature can be facilitated to natures benefit.

I could be wrong in that assessment. Some suggest that unity does not have levels and involves the whole, thus there is no first cause to our suffering. However, our reality is divided with many levels. Therefore, until we close the gap between ourselves, we most likely we feel detached from nature and the earth suffers from that breach.

I resonate with your cancer cell analogy. Interesting that many new age ideologies advocate loving one's cancer cells as a way of redirecting growth.

Thanks,
mikeS

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Interesting you mention the man vs man split.  I recently exited out of an ecovillage group, the day the news came that they received a grant for building the village.  The reason being:  I saw the same “shit” that I see in our day-to-day world.  The relationships weren't changing, and hence I saw no hope for the village being sustainable.  What I saw in their dictates included:  (a) absolute power and control by one person; (b) not allowing for a diversity of opinions and ways of going about living within the guidelines of being sustainable; and (c) not allowing for the healthy budding of human relationships, and, in fact, there was even a paranoia from the head fellah about relationships.  So, I made my exit when I was told I could not express my opinions and had to basically follow the dictates of what this fellah said without question.  And, I did indeed see some silly decisions.  But, I'm not going to get into all that.  I guess my main point is that the same kind of dynamics that play out in our relationships play out in our relationship to Nature. So, I'm with you regarding humans needing to heal.  I just think that the healing is a both-and.  As humans heal, Nature heals and as Nature heals, humans heal. Carolyn Baker, an ecopsychologist, wrote a good book called “Sacred Demise” that kind of pulls the illness of our culture all together.  Not as well as I do…but heh. 

Kidding aside, Seboomook Campground is only a 15 hour drive from the Poconos (probably less depending on where in the Poconos you are).  One of those hours is on a rutted out logging road on which you have to pay a $6.00 toll to Plum Creek Lumber.  Since you're a therapist, you could do a healing exercise at our event if you want. The cost?  The drive, the tolls, the campground and a donation according to what you can afford and what you feel it's worth in benefit to you.  I'm really wanting to make this affordable.  I have a hard time asking for $400.00+ from people who can't afford something I couldn't afford. 

Anyone on this group reading this is welcome to come.  Healing Hearts, Healing Earth. Friday Oct. 2 - Sunday Oct. 4.  You can give me or my wife a call.  207-522-2606.  Or, write burl_hall@yahoo.com.  Thanks, Burl

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Hey Burl,

Thanks for the invite. My wife has always loved Maine.

Never know what the future will bring…
mikeS

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oh my dear Mike, I do love Jon Kabat-Zinn! :)

Wherever You Go There You Are


love,


Nicole

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Ah!

So that's the bright mind I was thinking of. I even have the book and I may have actually read it.

Thanks!
mikeS

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Actually mike, I should have said,  “Oh your so gloomy tonight mikeS…what's up”

Escaping while running about wildly into the 'woods' with no clothes really adds to the drama and ensures none of those pesky humans follow you in…just so you know in case there is a next time Mr. Prophet of Doom and Gloom!

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HA!

What makes you so certain that when I run necked into the woods, no one will follow?


Breathe deep the gathering gloom
Watch lights fade from every room
Bedsitter people look back and lament
Another day's useless energy spent.

Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,
Lonely man cries for love and has none.
New mother picks up and suckles her son,
Senior citizens wish they were young.

Cold hearted orb that rules the night,
Removes the colors from our sight.
Red is grey and yellow white,
But we decide which is right.
And which is an illusion?

Gloom on! All ye happy, shiny people!
mikeS

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oh the Moody Blues, takes me back.