Freedom From Purpose

Make no mistake, you have determined my purpose, as I determine yours and, therefore, there is no escape from conforming to our mutually assigned purpose.

Failure to conform to your purpose for me, is a reflection of my betrayal of you, and vice versa, and betrayal will then be our shared purpose.

Such is the essence of hate.

We construct a purpose for everyone we meet and this reflects the ego’s judgment capacity, because it has no other purpose but to judge whether I conform to your purpose for me. Closely review the ego's tension when you cannot define me or when I defy your judgments. And what the ego cannot define must be a threat.

You cannot escape the purpose they impose, nor will they escape the purpose imposed by you.

The guards are the inmates.

We are all prisoners of a purpose we did not invent (although we think we did). Do you really think you created your self separate from the world? Do you really think you are free to invent your 'self' as you choose? Ha! If I let you. But will you let me? There is no isolation from the game and you can't simply leave the playing field because we are the playing field! Everyone plays, especially those who claim to NOT play.

Don’t think for a minute that you can escape to your cushion of solitude, seeking to free yourself from what I (the world) intend for you, because the fact is you are aware that I have a purpose for you, as you have a purpose for me. We will both attempt to wiggle out of this, but to no avail. We create truth and lock it into place, then we complain that it isn't true. Truth is what we believe it is because we make it so and there is no other kind except what we determine and such is our denied power.

When you open your eyes, do you see who you knew before? In that case, WE are all still dreaming.

However, when you open your eyes, if WE no longer 'know' each other, feel confident that WE now share a purpose that has no past and all purposes come from the past.

And in that, we are FREE… at least of purpose.

Until then, we will continue to insist on (and deny) each others purpose and that will keep us reliant on the past in determining the purpose of the world (and the world will always show us what we have determined it must, since that's its purpose).

Just saying…….
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

MikeS,

Chapter 54, Finite & Infinite Games…:-)

Frans

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Frans! Wonderful to see you again.

Mike, thanks for bringing this up. Purpose (and other things) that we impose on each is so very limiting. Awareness is a beginning, always, to choosing possibly a better way.

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I see your point, Mike.  Communication breaks down and conflicts arise in relationships, whether one on one, between nations, all of it, because of expectations not being met and/or design of purpose being rebelled against.  I think, at least in terms of rebellion, it is that inner conflict of experiencing something one way and being told we are experiencing it quite another way.

Perhaps the lure of solitude, then, for those of us who seek it, is to live temporarily in the illusory cushion that we are somehow free from the burden of social purpose.

But still, I like the quiet solitude brings, so that this purpose does not kill me altogether.  If it is illusory, then that is what it is.

Every now and again, you remind me of Jose Ferrer's character, Leopold, in Woody Allen's Midsummer's film:

Student: I take it you rule out metaphysics as unworthy of serious consideration.

Professor Leopold: As I stated quite clearly in my latest paper, metaphysical philosophers are men who are too weak to accept the world as it is. Their theories of the so-called “mysteries of life” are nothing more than projections of their own inner uneasiness. Apart from this world, there are no realities.

Student: But that leaves many basic human needs unanswered.

Professor Leopold: I'm sorry. I did not create the cosmos. I merely explain it.


Blessings :)

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Nahnni

I think, at least in terms of rebellion, it is that inner conflict of experiencing something one way and being told we are experiencing it quite another way.

Ha! Which, by the way, seems to be exactly what I'm doing, eh?

Perhaps the lure of solitude, then, for those of us who seek it, is to live temporarily in the illusory cushion that we are somehow free from the burden of social purpose.

Yes and why do we consider it such a burden? Why is engaging so psychologically burdensome? Is not the greatest joy a shared joy? Why do we resent one another so deeply? What exactly are we afraid of?

I should point out, to those who may think that I'm advocating the complete negation of solitude, or that i require no solitude, is that I love solitude. This may seem contradictory to my previous posts, but I only question the motives and in no way claim to be any different than anyone else. In addition, contrary to many who desire to transcend the ego, I only wish to understand it and so i question everything it thinks and does.

However, I'm not sure how the Professor Leopold analogy fits. Would you be so bold as to explain more fully. : )

As always, just saying…
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

LoL Mike~

Maybe the Leopold analogy doesn't fit at all, or perhaps it fits only in the moment it seems to fit.  I've never analyzed it closely enough to answer that.  Perhaps it is because his ideas seem so solid to him, I don't know.  All these people are running around him with designs of their own and all the while he retains his solidity.  Of course, in the end, that perception changes, but again, perhaps the analogy only has some sort of reflective meaning in my mind only.  It certainly is not a negative analogy, more tongue in cheek.

Why do we consider it such a burden? Why is engaging so psychologically burdensome? Is not the greatest joy a shared joy? Why do we resent one another so deeply? What exactly are we afraid of?

These are good questions.  Perhaps it comes down to the ego's desire to separate itself to some degree from the crowd of egos.  Who is to say we are not, indeed, separate to some measure?  If life is philosophically looked upon as a learning experience (or even a journey), is that experience solely collective or is it to a degree individualized?  Even as we can see there is a connecting thread to existence, to define it as “Oneness” is only a philosophy set out to define it.

I don't like the term transcendence, but more transformation.  I don't see the ego as a negative, but certainly it has the potential to be horribly negative.  Perhaps I am confusing the meaning of ego transcendence as being devoid of ego, itself.  I would see that state of being as not being able to be defined.  How could one share that, if it actually occurred?   The actual compulsion to teach that transcendence would be impossible without the ego, wouldn't it?  I would see transformation as being able to gain control of, and see clearly, the workings of this strange element to our existence and then choose what we do with it.  If there is any elitism involved, the ego has not even begun to be transformed, let alone transcended.  I think resentments and conflicts come up because we don't clearly understand our motivations.  Then again, I've met those who almost seem to thrive on nurturing their own resentments.  Perhaps that is the positive aspect of meditation…to see the forest for the trees. 

I'm glad you clarified your position.  I think the ego, itself, has to engage in some sort of devil's advocate debate in order to understand itself more clearly.

Blessings, my Friend~

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Nahnni,

Perhaps it is because his ideas seem so solid to him, I don't know.  All these people are running around him with designs of their own and all the while he retains his solidity.

Ahhh….Good point and I have often been mistaken for one who 'knows' and roundly berated for it. This is primarily due to my method of questioning. I should find the old post from the God Pod where I wrote that all I have is a
drive-to-question and really nothing more than that. Nevertheless, I do understand how my questions often seem to assert something as true and i should frame things more as a hypothesis. But then, what controversy would that stir up. Ha!

Unfortunately, I wish I had that solidity of perspective you speak of and, contrary to appearances, i'm quite open to change and have changed my opinions and perspectives quite frequently. As of yet, I really have not found “something to believe in,” but a great deal to question. In my youth I used to lock onto perspectives as advocated by others. But not any more. Now i just question. Life will really suck for me the day someone actually finds the absolute truth. Ha!

Yep. transformation seems more likely to me as well.

I think the ego, itself, has to engage in some sort of devil's advocate debate in order to understand itself more clearly.

Devil's advocate? I've been accused of that too!

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Frans!

hmmmm…interesting that you should emphasize that chapt., as it is the most underlined and highlighted chapter in my own text. Here's a little extract for those who do not have Carse's book:

“Not allowing the past to be past may be the primary source for the seriousness of finite players. Inasmuch as finite play always has its audience, it is the audience to whom the finite player intends to be known as winner. The finite player, in other words, must not only have an audience but must have an audience to convince.

Just as the titles of winners are worthless unless they are visible to others, there is a kind of antititle that attaches to invisibility. To the degree that we are invisible we have a past that has condemned us to oblivion. It is as though we have somehow been overlooked, even forgotten, by our chosen audience. If it is the winners who are presently visble, it is the losers who are invisibly past.

As we enter into finite play - not playfully, but seriously - we come before an audience conscious that we bear the antititles of invisibility. We feel the need, therefore, to prove to them that we are not what we think they think we are or, more prescisely, that we were not who we think the audience thinks we were.

As with all finite play, an acute contradiction quickly develops at the heart of this attempt. As finite players we will not enter the game with sufficient desire to win unless we are ourselves convinced by the very audience we intend to convince. That is, unless we believe we actually are the losers the audience sees us to be, we will not have the necessary desire to win. The more negatively we assess ourselves, the more we strive to reverse the negative judgment of others. The outcome brings the contradiction to perfection: by proving to the audience they were wrong, we prove to ourselves they were right.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Nicole,

Good to be back - but I'm not promising any major engagement :-)

Nahnni,

Relationships are torment, yes, but solitude is boring and gets really uncomfortable too (to me, that is).  To be free of purpose - now that would be something!

Frans

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Greetings Frans~

I don't mean so much solitude as a lifestyle choice, though some may choose that way (or it may be thrust upon them), but more as a temporary space to clear one's thoughts and the debris of those social pressures, as it were.  For me, I can't create without it and inspiration often eludes without it.  But I speak only for myself.  I feel a little crazy when too interactive.

I agree that relationships can be a torment, and I suppose they work best if each person's agenda is similar, or at least compatible.  Agenda has a negative  connotation, but I don't see it as an entirely a negative thing.  The closer people are aligned in their expectation, the more smoothly things seem to progress.  If not, I think people fall into the trap of thinking the other can be changed of their purpose, or one has neither listened nor believed that purpose from the beginning.  Then one steps into power control and manipulations.  Social, as well as individual, relationships and interactions fall into this abyss all the time.

I do think we are haunted by the messages and purposes we are pressured to submit to from birth.  It is interesting how some will, indeed, submit (probably most) and others will not.  Either way, there is a price attached and that price usually is some degree of torment.

Blessings~

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I hope relationships don't have to be a torment. Yes, they can be very hard and very unhealthy but I have observed them being a great joy to some. Hope one day to know what that is like myself.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hey MikeS,

I'm still reading the book, but that chapter has so far jumped out the most.  I guess it reminds me of the webs we all weave, unaware of most of them, thinking we actually know what we're doing..:-)  Quite hilarious when you take into account (the text you quoted) is that many times we are our own audience…

Thanks for mentioning this book; that alone has validated all my time spent on the 'puter.

Frans

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hey Nahnni,

I think we make relationships into torment - they don't have to be.  That's the great lesson in relationships, probably - how they always will point out our sore spots, the areas in our ego that need healing; to actually let the healing happen is of course only possible if we can “see” the complete and utter non-reality of the messages and purposes and act accordingly.  The most frightening thing imaginable, because it really means to let go of any identification with what we always believed to be “me”.

I'm raising my glass to torment - without it I would still be me :-)

Love,
Frans

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Frans~

I actually think you are right.  I wonder how many really trust that process, though?  I think trust is a big, big issue and not simply between two people within a relationship, but our relationships as a whole. 

I see a full circle in that with what Christine mused as living a compromised life in another thread.  Sooner or later too much compromise becomes surrender and we lose ourselves in that.  Then, it comes around to what Mike said about resenting others.  The ability or inability to trust, to be honest with others, with ourselves, the fear of betrayal of trust, all of that I think enters into the complications within all levels of relationships and resentments.

What are you saying has insight, but how many really have that insight?  I have observed that relationships which appear to flourish have a mutual insight, and these sadly appear to be rare. 

Blessings~

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Nahnni,

Rare, perhaps, but I think there are valuable lessons in all types of relationships - isn't that why we are here? I always learn from you, Mike, Frans. I learn more perhaps from those who are closer to me, but that is not a linear relationship (the closer the person, the more lessons learned)

Blessings,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Greetings Nicole~

Oh yes, I agree in the value of all types of relationships.  I did not wish to imply otherwise, but perhaps used our closest relationships as an illustration.  I think my main question would be in matters of honesty and trust, which undoubtedly comes from one's own center point before being allowed outside of that point.  And of course, one always projects one's trust or fear, all things relative by positive or negative measure, from that central place.

Where I am beginning to understand Mike's view, is that often our own mirror is clouded with fears and doubts that just kind of circle around themselves, and confronting them through interaction becomes positive, if not healthy.  If one does not trust, then any relationship, intimate or otherwise, is going to stumble sooner or later.  I think this is where interaction becomes difficult for some.

I do see people as often having their own purpose or agenda, projecting that to some degree, is why I speculate that the closer the purpose and agenda the less conflict.  Again, just speculation.  It doesn't necessarily leave room for a lot of growth, but then again, perhaps it does.  That would come down to perspective, I suppose.

Interesting discussion.

Blessings~

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Nahnni,

In matters of honesty and  trust, coming from one's own centre… for myself I find I very often want to be fully honest and real, but deal with resistances within others who are not so comfortable, so have to compromise with much less, out of consideration for where that person is at in his or her trust level.

Blessings,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Mike, one of the problems I have with your initial premise is the purpose I think I have for someone keeps changing as my relationship changes with them, as it must. It's too static.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Nicole,

I like your honesty in identifying your relationships, but then when I respond contrary, I think you feel I'm negating or even attacking you personally (I could be wrong in this and it's just a feeling I get).
These thoughts I post are highly generalized and are not meant to address specific people or their relationships. Obviously everything is situational and relative. This is all philosophical.
So again I respond generally that in every intimate relationship, we expect love and love is expected to make us “happy.” Thus, when we engage in loving relationships we expect love in return, however, the problem is that we all have a different conceptualization of what love is and how it should be extended and returned.

Therefore, although it is certainly true that all relationships are not static and go through transitions, that basic foundation of love must remain continuous and unswerving (in fact, I have found a general expectation from others who believe that love should “grow”).

It's the conditions we impose upon the sharing that impedes sharing and I suppose that applies to all relationships. Essentially, our defining the conditions of love is playing a finite game because we have set and imposed the rules and if the rules are not followed then we believe love is not being extended and we withhold in return.

Thus, in expecting love be extended on our conditions, we have imposed a 'purpose' upon another as they most likely have imposed their own similar “love” purpose on us. I think if we really examine deep enough we will see that we certainly expect relationships to change, but NOT love and, since love is conditional in this world, this then becomes a problem and often leads to the demise of relationships.

only saying….
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Mike,

I guess I get very frustrated with generalities that seem easily falsified, especially when I point out what seem to me to be the obvious flaws in a premise you share and it feels like you just side-step the comment or ignore it. I don't feel personally attacked but it doesn't feel like real engagement to me, more of an elaborate dance on your part that doesn't dazzle me but simply makes me wonder if you can acknowledge the validity in other perspectives.

If something is philosophical but doesn't speak to my experiences and the experiences of others like me, what good is it?

So, you use words like in “every” intimate relationship, but then appear surprised to be challenged on that, when you must know that there are many intimate relationships that don't follow your rules.

There is no certainty that the basic foundation of love remain continuous and unswerving. Love can wither and die, as well as remain, or grow.

I could go on, but you get my drift. I don't agree with your premises or your conclusions.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I guess I get very frustrated with generalities that seem easily falsified, especially when I point out what seem to me to be the obvious flaws in a premise you share and it feels like you just side-step the comment or ignore it.

Just because some points may need to be better articulated or even altered doesn't mean the entire theory is “easily falsifiable.” Some have voiced agreement and some disagreement, so I'm not so sure what you mean by “easily falsifiable.”
However, you are free to dismiss completely if you like. I have not personally attacked anyone. However, I sense my ideas cause you to feel attacked. We often make compromises with reality to improve comfort and this is often in the form of denying parts of reality and we don't appreciate others reminding us because it touches off guilt.

I don't feel personally attacked but it doesn't feel like real engagement to me, more of an elaborate dance on your part that doesn't dazzle me but simply makes me wonder if you can acknowledge the validity in other perspectives.

Well that's the thing, Nicole, It's not about you. “Elaborate dance”“? hmmm…at this point your pejorative rhetoric seems a bit personal. Possibly you find distaste with my method? Or I insult your sensibilities? Of course, I acknowledge the validity of other perspectives. Look down a bit and you will see that right in this thread.

If something is philosophical but doesn't speak to my experiences and the experiences of others like me, what good is it?

Once again, Nicole, it's not about you. “Others like you”? hmmm…and who would that be? You speak for others? “…doesn't speak to my experiences”? But that's a bit selfish don't you think?

So, you use words like in “every” intimate relationship, but then appear surprised to be challenged on that, when you must know that there are many intimate relationships that don't follow your rules.

Actually, I relish being challenged and it seems that's how we grow and learn. I'm not one to simply accept convention and custom and this tends to piss folks off. Contrary to your observations I have rarely been “surprised” here at Gaia, since most participants refuse to break from convention (that can be a fearful thing). In addition, I do not make the rules I merely observe and report on my observations, right or wrong, and in your opinion they're all wrong. Fine.

There is no certainty that the basic foundation of love remain continuous and unswerving. Love can wither and die…”

Ah haa! And that would seem to be the problem, don't you think? I merely theorize as to why. Don't we all desire love to be certain and continous?  But that's not what you experience, so in your view it is an impossibility. Should we just simply accept that it dies, end of story? I merely seek to determine if it could be possible, contrary to conventional experiences.

I don't agree with your premises or your conclusions.

You are free to agree or disagree, it makes no nevermind to me. I have no required outcome in terms of collecting agreement from others. I'm not afraind to say what I think no matter how many might disagree. In fact, I hope most will disagree because that keeps the game going.

Nevertheless, does this “feel like real engagement” to you now?
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Mike,

Again, you are assuming that I am feeling attacked, regardless of what I am saying. This is what troubles me in trying to engage with you. It seems that no matter how I respond, you always know better than me. 

Well, you're the psychologist, so perhaps it's an occupational hazard. But it does present a barrier for me in having an in-depth discussion with you, especially about feelings.

So, if you indulge in generalities but I speak to personal experience, I'm being selfish? It's all about me? Those are interesting judgments, Mike. Not terribly helpful in getting to real engagement.


Some have voiced agreement and some disagreement, so I'm not so sure what you mean by “easily falsifiable.”


Actually, there are certain points that many of the people here have expressed agreement on, contrary to your views, for example the helpfulness of disengaging, and your approach seems to be to find other ways of taking pot-shots at that view if one way doesn't work, rather than fully engaging with it.


If you present something as being the case for “all”, and I give one or more examples of where that is not true, if I am correct, that is falsified. Is that clearer? Of course, it's possible that I am wrong, even about my own experience. But rather high-handed of you to tell me you know better than I about my own life and mind, no?


Actually, I relish being challenged and it seems that's how we grow and learn. I'm not one to simply accept convention and custom and this tends to piss folks off. Contrary to your observations I have rarely been “surprised” here at Gaia, since most participants refuse to break from convention (that can be a fearful thing).


In my observations, you are just as prone as anyone to break off and retreat if you are not happy with how things are going. 


And your opinions are not all wrong to me. I know that what I said about not agreeing could be misconstrued that way, I was merely referring to a certain set of premises and conclusions. In fact, over the time of our acquaintance we have agreed on many, many things. I believe you know that to be true if you look back over our discussions here, on your blog and in the groups.


How do you know I do not experience love to be continuous, or believe that that is impossible? In fact, I both experience certain relationships in my life as continuous or growing and therefore know that it is possible. I was objecting to another generality that love is “always” continuous. It's not.


Now, at this point if you were correct, and I were taking all this personally, this would be the moment in the discussion where I would march off in a huff, leave the group spectacularly or even leave Gaia in a cloud of smoke.


I am going to do neither, because I have not given up on you, Mike, and I am determined to work this through with you, unless you back off again, in which case I will have to wait for the next opportunity. We've been through this cycle a number of times, so I recognise the pattern.


Peace angel,


Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Again, you are assuming that I am feeling attacked, regardless of what I am saying. This is what troubles me in trying to engage with you.

Wow, you really are taking this seriously. “It seems that no matter how I respond, you always know better than me.” That would be your interpretation and may have little to do with me. I can't help how you interpret my comments and you'll have to take responsibility for your emoting. However, phrases like “easily falsifiable,” “elaborate dance” etc, seem ways to impugn me personally and I'm just wondering why you feel the need to attack. thus, possibly you feel attacked by me. When folks use disparaging or belittling comments toward me I then seek to discern how they may have felt attacked by me. I'm currently at a loss.

Well, you're the psychologist, so perhaps it's an occupational hazard. But it does present a barrier for me in having an in-depth discussion with you, especially about feelings.

Oh good grief. I only bring up my profession when asked or when presenting observations. for the most part, I leave that out for the very reason you exhibit now.

So, if you indulge in generalities but I speak to personal experience, I'm being selfish? It's all about me? Those are interesting judgments, Mike. Not terribly helpful in getting to real engagement.

Oh, I see, you have certain rules regarding “real engagement” that you feel I'm not adhering to? Interesting how you seem to be imposing your criteria upon me and this speaks directly to the concept of imposing our purpose upon others that I've addressed. Feel free, Nicole, to openly disclose your criteria on “real engagement.” I promise I will not respond pejoratively (although I may disagree, and it seems disagreement is equivalent to attack for you). Unfortunately for your sensibilities, philosophical discussions often revolve around generalities. Sorry.

Actually, there are certain points that many of the people here have expressed agreement on, contrary to your views, for example the helpfulness of disengaging, and your approach seems to be to find other ways of taking pot-shots at that view if one way doesn't work, rather than fully engaging with it.

Many of the people here, in fact, most, have vehemently disagree with my points and have agreed with yours and others. “pot-shots”? You'll have to provide examples of this, since it is not my practice to “pot-shot.” (I'm not even sure what that means for you exactly, so it might be best to stick with non-pejorative terms for the sake of clarity). If I engage your view with questions and/or disagreement, you feel pot-shotted? If you read over various other threads, I think you will find that I have often agreed with folks and added additional info to keep the discussion going. I'm a bit confused by your sudden attitude.

In my observations, you are just as prone as anyone to break off and retreat if you are not happy with how things are going.

I see, so from your research this has been your conclusion. Actually, my engaging with conflictual discussions is readily documented. I assure you, contrary to your observations, that the 2 or 3x's I've been away for extended periods have been due to outside engagements particularly with work. I often wonder how some folks can be so frequently engaged in this forum with all the pressing needs of living.

How do you know I do not experience love to be continuous, or believe that that is impossible? In fact, I both experience certain relationships in my life as continuous or growing and therefore know that it is possible. I was objecting to another generality that love is “always” continuous. It's not.

I have no idea what you experience until you post it. I was merely addressing a hypothesis is to why love is NOT continuous, which you disagree with and that's A-Ok by me. I never asserted that love is continuous, particularly conditional love possibly you misread. I may be wrong in the theory that we impose our own purposes upon others, but then I may be right.

Now, at this point if you were correct, and I were taking all this personally, this would be the moment in the discussion where I would march off in a huff, leave the group spectacularly or even leave Gaia in a cloud of smoke.

Really?! Ha! Similar to your knowledge of me, I realize that you would NOT do such a childish thing. hmmm…okay I do recall absolving myself of the moderator position in your pod, but I imposed that punishment upon myself for being downright rude and obnoxious to another member, however, I did not stop posting in the God Pod, even after I started this pod. Is this what you seem to be referring to? Maybe all this goes back deeper than just this thread.

I am going to do neither, because I have not given up on you, Mike, and I am determined to work this through with you, unless you back off again, in which case I will have to wait for the next opportunity. We've been through this cycle a number of times, so I recognise the pattern.

What!? “back off”? When? Ha! You're gonna have to refresh my memory on this “pattern” you seem to perceive. I think if you'll review the conflictual threads in your own pod you'll clearly see that I've hung in there for the duration, except when i felt the discussion had ended. In fact I recall a recent discussion in your pod with Dov and Kelamuni which was very conflictual and seemed to go one forever and that discussion ensued after I had started this pod. Maybe you could link that up, since you seem intent on having me on the defensive here.

At this point i must admit I continue to be confused by your posturing.

Splain Lucy!
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Mike,

No, not posturing, still trying to have an honest discussion with you, but clearly we have different perceptions, have experienced our interactions differently. Surprise, surprise! :)

I'm not going to cite chapter and verse to you - tell you when you did what, or whatever. Post links when you bowed out of discussions, or in my view took potshots rather than engaging.That wouldn't be helpful. No, I am not intent on having you on the defensive here, though I can understand that it could come across as that to you. I can see that from the tone of this past letter that we are not going in a direction that is going to generate better understanding, so choose to re-direct.

I'm having just as much trouble following you, I think, as you are having following me. I thought that you were asserting love was always continuous, but if you were not, my bad, as the kids would say.

Philosophical assertions do not have be limited to sweeping generalities, actually. I can speak philosophically and stick to I-statements, instead of statements beginning with things like we always, or of necessity we must, or that sort of thing, which doesn't seem to include the possibility of other experiences being valid. 

Anyway, I'm repeating myself, so I will stop now. Your turn.

Peace angel,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Nicole,

Well, it looks like you are correct and the 'bad' is mine.

This was my original statement:

Therefore, although it is certainly true that all relationships are not static and go through transitions, that basic foundation of love must remain continuous and unswerving (in fact, I have found a general expectation from others who believe that love should “grow”).

Which should have read:

“[however, we tend to expect] that [the] basic foundation of love must remain continuous and unswerving (in fact, I have found a general expectation from others who believe that love should “grow”).

The general thesis was that we engage in loving relationships because we expect the love to remain continuous and unswerving and even to grow. Unfortunately, the conditions we impose make may impede that expectation. The rest of that post remains applicable in relation to imposing purposes.

You are correct in that what I originally wrote was “easily falsifiable.” However, you may still believe the corrected version continues to be an “elaborate dance.”

I'm usually more careful with originating posts or blog posts. Unfortunately, later quickly jotted comments can come out crappy at times.

Sorry,
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

No problem, Mike. I appreciate your gracious explanation very much. I find myself much more in agreement with your modified version and hope that the process of us coming to this  understanding was not too painful for you.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Nicole,

“Painful”?

hmmmm…now why would you assume our “coming to this understanding” initiated “pain” for me?

Because of your ad hominem attacks?

Well, I'm certainly glad you did not feel attacked. Hahaa!

However, you have yet to answer my question. I note that you seem intent on identifying what does NOT work. Yet, what works? How do you define full engagement? What 'rules' do you propose are best?

This may be a crucial factor in  the continuance of this pod, at least in my continuing to participate, since I'm beginning to realize that the inception of this pod was rather haphazard on my part.

I suppose we should grind things down to the center, don't you?

Peace to You, as well!
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Mike,

You'll notice I didn't assume about the pain but asked the question. 

How do I define full engagement? What are my rules? I didn't answer because I don't think they are important. I think I would like to grow beyond them rather than focus on them.

Do you think there is a reason not to continue the pod? Why, when it seems to be thriving so beautifully, and clearly enjoyed by the active participants?

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Nicole,

You don't think your rules are important, however, you seem agitated about the rules that I set forth, which are merely theoretically observational and not an invention of my own. Obviously, if rules that I highlight seem controversial that may be because they conflict with your own and in that case your rules should be delineated. Up to now, I've always sensed that you have a fear of conflict (since we're getting all honest about each others 'patterns') and, although I know we broached this aspect before, do you feel conflict should be absent for engagement to be fully facilitated? (I sense you do).

I have no intent to end the pod, but i sense this “full engagement” concept may need some defining. That point behind my initial post centered on the fact that we tend to unconsciously define purposes for one another and impose those purposes in the engagement (yet, this in no way denies the consciously defined purposes we impose, such as “cultivator,” which is a term I loathe).

However, when others refuse to adhere to the purpose that we have unconsciously set forth, we may get agitated and attack. This is purely egoic in nature and it's really no different than when the car breaks down and thus, no longer fulfills its purpose for us. This may cause a great deal of agitation and verbal and physical attacks against the car (I speak personally as this was a recent event and still fresh in my mind).

My current dissatisfaction with your comments would also serve to exemplify this egoic phenomenon and my specific complaint toward you that I may not have had for anyone else, since we have known each other for quite some time. Could it be that I have imposed a purpose upon you that is not imposed on another? And would that also apply to your treatment of me?

The rules fit the relationship and it seems we may have different conditions for every relationship we engage with. However, there is little doubt in my mind that it is our most significant relationships that are the most impeded by our imposing of purposes. There is always some outcome or result we expect and when we don't get it we can become quite viscious, indeed.

No?
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Mike,

I feel quite content to leave it at this for now. 

I'm not crazy about conflict, you know me well enough in that regard, but disagreement is not in and of itself conflict. It depends on how it is framed, as our recent discussion evidence. I enjoy a lively discussion with many views expressed.

Sorry about your car breakdown. I'm sure it was very frustrating.

I can't speak to what purpose you have imposed on me. It seems that it up to you to decide. As to my treatment of you, I have apologised profusely and am attempting to make amends. What more can I do?

I am willing to flex and flow with the conversation and not get stuck here. What about you?

Regards,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Nahnni,

Very few indeed, and it seems that most who don't simply spin their wheels…however that's quite a judgment to make; maybe they are simply where they need to be?

Flourishing, intimate relationships - they don't happen with finite players :-)

Frans

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Frans~

Flourishing, intimate relationships - they don't happen with finite players

I am suddenly reminded of that Fleetwood song: “Dreams”.  Players only love you when they're playing.  I think one has to have a whole lot of confidence to be an infinite player, because it seems nearly all that surrounds such a player is finite.

But you are right about a judgment call.  Things may be as they seem…or not…letting be what is, or may not be, is the wiser way.

Blessings~

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Flourishing, intimate relationships - they don't happen with finite players :-)

Profoundly TRUE!! (imho)
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Nahnni,

For me it's the only way to be truly alive.  I think I can say that I move between the two - many times taking the finite play seriously and without exception realizing later how dull (dead?) I felt in those moments…To be an infinite player doesn't take confidence or trust or faith - it takes insight (but maybe that's all just semantics).

Love,
F

Re: Freedom From Purpose

To be an infinite player is to be aware of and question the outcomes you require. This is because to require an outcome is to impose rules that are believed to lead to that outcome.

Thus, any deviance from the rules you've imposed causes suffering because if the rules are not followed the outcome may not occur.

Most people follow the rules blindly believing that this is just the way it's done. They have no idea that they have actually chosen to play by the rules and could easily choose not to. Then again, sometimes it's very hard not to play by the rules. Neverthelss, how 'serious' you take the rules can determine how much suffering you experience as opposed to how much joy.

Yet, for the most part it is the rules or conditions we impose upon our relationship with others and ourselves that causes the most duress. The outcome you determine that you must experience will determine the rules that you play by. All we need do is be aware of our desired outcomes and the rules we impose and ask “why does this matter?”

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

hi all…
not too often these days i am in a mood to read a lot of words - and today i was… so i read the thread and enjoyed it.

so - in my own free style which goes places that i do not know - which has developed through the unique blending of conditions in time and space that makes up my experience (maybe that is the individuality that Nahnni speaks of)

there is the seeking of purpose - which is the seeking out of agreements… of something that makes sense… this seeking i know - because i travel in it's loops and twists and knarled paths often these days… getting lost in them sometimes - especially the finite game of invisibility mentioned above … - the getting lost … being lost and forgetting your lost - i guess that is finite playing and you know - just because you are in the finite game and that is your reality - does NOT MEAN (in my opinion) that there is no deep flourishing intimate relationships… because often being in agreement - having the structure - gives the heart the opportunity to open within that structure… and so there can be real loving kindness, generosity, empathy etc.

and that is a mandala.  and just because i know what a mandala is - does not mean i have a greater opportunity to have flourishing relationships… what it DOES mean is that i have more conceptual twists and knots to navigate through… and are those necessary??  the concepts of finite and infinite games in order to experience a flourishing intimate relationship??  i don't believe so.

freedom from purpose is very very difficult - i say this from my own personal perspective and not from any other…. i know it as a personal torment … a wondering if it is even ok for this “me” to live - when all this “me” seems to do is consume resources… physical, emotional, conceptual resources.

and in the playing out of intimate relations - with children, and grown parents who have their view of the world… and a partner with his view of the world … to let them have their view - knowing that they may be solid in that… or not…  but regardless to choose NOT to divorce myself from them… even though we do not share  a collective sense of purpose… the rules are different….  mine and theirs'.

it is difficult to jump from layers of rules to other layers of rules…

and what makes it so difficult and serious?… to make depression sink in and solidfy it self as a dominant view…  that part of me that longs for a purpose of some sort - yet sees none… 

and what happens is a retraction… a shrinking away… a missing of potential… a foothold of inertia that strenghtens and swallows lightness into a heavy shadow of self absorbing despair.

that is a risk of mixing the finite with the infinite… of jumping around between sets of rules… of playing with no purpose.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Wow, Christine, an intense read.  I feel this way sometimes…or a lot.  For me, it has become like that gamblers song I loathe so much, but in contrast like the lines “know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.”   It is all in the timing, and the older I get, the more the timing improves.  When I look back on my life, all of the stagnant episodes have come from the compromise that became surrender, of not being fully honest, with myself, with others, or not retreating when the door was still open.  So, I have learned to cast the net out to sea in some interactions, find that fish of a common bond and leave it at that, not going any deeper.  Self preservation, maybe, but also fully realizing one's limitations, accepting them and going with that, so as not to diminish one's own spirit nor any other.

And as Frans says, shattering can become a birth canal.  I think it comes after that dark wood wandering; that even in Dante's recognition of finding oneself lost, that is where one might begin.

Peace~

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Christine,

It is very difficult - almost unthinkable - to have no purpose; it means to have no identity, no ego maybe.

Concepts only stand in the way of intimate relationship, but we can use the words as pointers - in that way finite and infinite allude to a way of relating - conceptual in a finite way; non-conceptual in an infinite way.

Looking for purpose while knowing all finite purpose is empty is an easy entrance into despair, especially when we run into judgment of “loved ones”…and yet maybe it could also be a birth canal into a deeper understanding?

Frans

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Christine, Frans, Nahnni,

The mention of Dante in the midst of this deep reflection together and feeling made me think of the song Dante's Prayer by Loreena McKennitt

When the dark wood fell before me
And all the paths were overgrown
When the priests of pride say there is no other way
I tilled the sorrows of stone

I did not believe because I could not see
Though you came to me in the night
When the dawn seemed forever lost
You showed me your love in the light of the stars

Cast your eyes on the ocean
Cast your soul to the sea
When the dark night seems endless
Please remember me

Then the mountain rose before me
By the deep well of desire
From the fountain of forgiveness
Beyond the ice and the fire

Cast your eyes on the ocean
Cast your soul to the sea
When the dark night seems endless
Please remember me

Though we share this humble path, alone
How fragile is the heart
Oh give these clay feet wings to fly
To touch the face of the stars

Breathe life into this feeble heart
Lift this mortal veil of fear
Take these crumbled hopes, etched with tears
We'll rise above these earthly cares

Cast your eyes on the ocean
Cast your soul to the sea
When the dark night seems endless
Please remember me… 

Re: Freedom From Purpose

What an excellent thread!  Another way of looking at this could be that our 'purpose' is to break free of the conditioning that keeps us 'trapped' in unhealthy relationships, or prevents us from having healthy ones.  And of course we MUST engage fully to do that, whether it be engaging with others, or in solitude with self…a heathy balance of that seems to be necessary…*shrugs…either way, I don't think we can absolutely say absolutely one way or the other…lol…like Christine stated so beautifully…

having the structure - gives the heart the opportunity to open within that structure… and so there can be real loving kindness, generosity, empathy etc.

Christine, your honesty is 'tragically beautiful', and speaks to the heart of all of us that have had similiar experiences.  

Nicole, I loved that poem, thnx for sharing it, as well as your many courageous posts… 

So, I have learned to cast the net out to sea in some interactions, find that fish of a common bond and leave it at that, not going any deeper.  Self preservation, maybe, but also fully realizing one's limitations, accepting them and going with that, so as not to diminish one's own spirit nor any other.



Beautiful sharing Nahnni!


Thanx Mike for the ideas that led to this wonderful expression of what it means to be 'fully engaged'…


To be an infinite player…takes insight


Thnx Frans…

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Loreena Mckennitt is an extraordinary woman.   There is this sense of her being one of those rare souls who stay true to a vision with graceful reverence and unfailing devotion, despite the grief of living sometimes, and holding onto the blessing and joy.  If I adhered to the concept of an old soul, she'd be such a one.

Beautiful video.  Great poetic song.

Peace~

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Oh good grief!
Words, words, words…so many words. I think this is a great thread but it is such a mind twister that I am not for certain how great it is! I tried to break into it with three reads and I can't see it. I can't see what I am supposed to see in here and not supposed to see or what may or may not be in here!

Freedom from purpose! What a crazy thought but it is actually horrifically hopeful in concept and yet I am not even sure why. 

Fran touched on semantics and I think that most of this thread is all semantically sticky! So I ask for clarification; is purpose and expectation different or is this semantics in play? 

Yes, I get that we impose expectations upon each other, I know where my own expectations comes from for the most part and I also see how usefull and useless it can be. To be free of it entirely from others? Boy oh boy…one sure would need a tall glass of confidence to stand there all alone in that type wonder. 

And I am not sure at this point anyway Fran if one can one rely on insight without confidence, trust or faith however I do agree that they are different and no…no semantic play on that thought, not for me anyway!

AND…due to some odd glitch in my thinking…I can't see how “I” as a part of a unit, such is my family…how I could ever void the purpose or expectation that is upon me. Freedom from purpose while it all sounds romantically intriguing might be for the lone wolf…or maybe not and again this just might be my own “glitchy” thinking.

Perhaps…there is nothing more than fleeting moments of knowing what it is truly like to stand with no purpose. It can be as Christine and Fran shared, horrific to stand without one as we are just that conditioned, I know I am. Perhaps… it is from the run off of those moments in life that propel us either under or over the car so to speak and in those high and lows of our own humanity we shake ourselves off and for a few moments only we get to wonder, ”Now What?”

For this is all mine have ever been…fleeting moments of “Now What”…and while life has thrown me over and under the car as it does, I have often thrown myself right into it in search of a new “Now What”. If for anything to keep it all from getting so stagnant, sticky and boring.

And another good grief thought I am wondering in…is…“So What!”

I mean, “So What” if one has purpose or expectations or even demands on me in any of my relationships including one with myself. As long as these “things” don't completely rob me of my own values, really “So What'? Even when they do and there have been many that have, it too is all nothing more than a fleeting moment. It is for me…what one does with those moments. Sometimes I can understand where ones expectations come from that are laden upon me, and there are times I don't like it…but “So What”.

“So What and Now What”…

I used to be so wrapped up in my work title, career and job and when I walked out on it all to here people would ask me all the time and they still do, “What do you do?” I used to say and still do…“Oh I use to be really, really important but not anymore.” No one ever asks for clarificatoin from me and I am still patiently waiting.

Maybe a few days away unzipped my mind for too long and it will take a few more days back to see in here again. Or maybe it is just you…and you and you…who knows…just good measure to throw that thought in…one never knows these things!

or do we?

(missed you all just the same.)

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Freedom from Purpose. In the way Mike describes this in the first post on this thread, I take it to mean he is talking about judgment, which many of the following posts seem to also imply. Judgments are assumptions based on incomplete facts. In the physical word, you can never have complete facts about anything, we can only know what there is at every moment, based on our observations.

You wake up in the morning, and you roll out of bed and you expect there to be ground below your feet with out looking. This is a judgment based on previous facts, and is an assumption. You meet a woman wearing glasses and you decide she has bad eye sight. You marry some one because they say they love you, and you assume they would not lie to you. You eat an apple, expecting to taste apple, and not banana, or orange, or pear.

To function on a day to day basis, we have to make judgments and assumptions all the time. Everyone learns you can not confirm everything in your universe at every moment. Most people don't know how their cell phone actually works, but they assume the science and technology is sound because it DOES work.

In the same way we assign and assume duties to people and things around us. We call the fire man and expect he can put out our house fire. We ask for furniture delivery, and expect that furniture find it's way into that spot in our house we want it. We turn on our TV, at a certain time and to a certain station and expect our favorite show to be on.

When these conditions are not met, we get upset. The fireman's truck breaks down and can not reach our house. We didn't account for the fact that the couch we ordered for our living room is 4 feet wide and our hall ways are only 2 feet wide. We turn on the TV only to find Obama talking, rather than our favorite show is on. The more invested in any outcome we are, the more we become upset if we do not get what we expected.

Many so called spiritual paths, expound the benefits of expecting anything from life. Buddhism for example, would say that expectations are an Ego's way. That a truly wise person understand that nothing in the world is ever the same, and that no outcome is ever guaranteed. This releases the Buddhist from the cycling of expectation and loss, that the Ego experiences, demanding, illogically, that the world around us remain static.

Certainly easy to expound but not quite so easy to implement. We all have attachments, a freedom from purpose, requires also a freedom from any attachment. The only way I have found, and many of the paths teach, is to love all with equal capacity. Jesus loved the man who scourged him, as much as he loved his father and mother. Buddha lived every moment, as if he next would be his last, and so expected nothing from any moment he encountered.

It seems that the key is boundless compassion. When we can stop placing limits upon our own love, then will we find a way to see the world for what it really is, and everyone in it. Never require, and you will never be hurt.

How do we find that sort of compassion? Perspective. If some one wants to be the master of anything in the physical word, it takes knowledge. With knowledge comes understanding, and with understanding we become integrated. Once we have assimilated something, it becomes part of us. We do not hate what we feel closest too.

Isn't that the whole point of this pod? Complete disclosure, full engagement, so that we might reach a total understanding? Enlightenment?

I think that's the key to it all. When you can stop saying, that is not me. Once it is a part of you, you have the power to effect it, and more to the point you do not feel threatened or upset by it.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

good post, however, the only way to gain understanding is through experiencing the very things that then bring about understanding…yes?  a journey that seems to delve further and further into exactly what it means to be human…

nicole and mike could not come to the conclusions and unity that they finally reached without dancing the little dance they danced together…lol

iow, we don't just arrive at boundless compassion without having plenty of experience with it's opposite…and even saying that any of us really understand what boundless compassion is seems a little arrogant, don't you think?  I am in agreement with mike where he states we all have our own ideas about what unconditional love is…sometimes love and compassion is a cold hard bitch…i speak from experience…lol

our attachments 'seem' to be there so we can use them to open up beyond them…like christian said concerning structures…if not, there would not be any integration happening at all…lol…so we could say that we are fully engaged even when it appears we are not…we are fully engaged not be fully engaged…lol…semantics…always, star…

Re: Freedom From Purpose

oh you beautiful people! boundless compassion, yes! perspective, yes! knowledge, understanding, not feeling threatened… 

we can't get rid of our assumptions and judgments, but can i free myself up from being blinded by them? can i recognise there is much, much more to each person and situation than I can see right now? …

love,

nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

nicole, i KNOW we can rid ourselves of our conditioned assumptions and judgments…it is a lot of work, but it is do-able…it is a process that takes a lot of awareness and inquiry into one's own behavior patterns and belief systems…we are so programed to react instead of act…it is that very programming that needs to be addressed, and this is what i think mike is pointing to…at least that is my understanding…*

Re: Freedom From Purpose

star, I really hope so! It's a process though, do you think most of us ever complete it in this life?

Re: Freedom From Purpose

how can the infinite be completed?  LOL…I use to think yes, that there was an absolute knowing…I have since decided that was my own ignorance and arrogance desiring to escape life by any means necessary…

just like the conversation you and mike had was a process to reach a little more understanding of each other's perspective, so is our journey…even Buddha went somewhere else yes?  Christ did too, yes?  

This dance of Being is magical and opens itself up to myriad possibilites and endless openended potential…I am here to learn how to be human…what-ever is next…is next…love to you nicole, *

Re: Freedom From Purpose

star, i can't tell you how much i am enjoying these discussions with you! so delighted you are swimming in Gaia discussion waters these days.

hugs,

nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

nicole, i too am loving, this aspect of being…'fully engaged' lol…*

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I don't know if it's arrogance to say you feel you are one with everything, which to me, is what boundless compassion is.

For me, it's like this. Physicality is a state of polarities, ends, sides, dualities. Physicality needs them for definition. This, and that. Me, and not me. Love and fear.

If you enjoy one condition of the physical, you must realize you have to embrace it's counterpart, it's definition. White paper, black ink. Sickness to understand wellness. Villains to give heroes some one to fight. Good requires evil, or it does not exist. It just is.

I believe God IS. He encompasses all and excludes nothing. Much the way a writer is the god of his or her fictional 2D universe. He realizes to create an exciting and interesting story, a hero can not be so with out obstacles to overcome.

So too is life. Moving past it requires the giving up the attachment to any of it.

Even at this moment, I've realized, that having the difficulty finding words to properly define what I mean, is helping me to properly define for myself as well what it is I mean. It gives it a clearer picture. In that, the difficulty is a blessing. The opposite side of the same coin.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

JP, i think we are saying the same thing a different way maybe…

i was not calling you arrogant, just that to assume we KNOW what boundless compassion is in every instance.

to 'feel' one with everything is impossible really. b/c it is conceptual. while you are 'feeling' you are one with the sky, there is a tornado forming somewhere fixing to bring death and destruction that you cannot possibly 'feel' one with…

cool converstioning…lol*

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Oh, I agree in the fact. I am human, and I may know a lot of things conceptually, what I actually do it another matter. I walk down the road of life like any other.

I'm just Patrick, as the name says. (Padric is the Gaelic)

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I said…

Oh man…oh man…oh man…!

Now…2 hours later and it is though this is an entire new thread and I hardly understood the first one!

Well than…let the Good Lord blew it's wind as it may!

Re: Freedom From Purpose

exciting, isn't it, Denim? Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

The ultimate purpose is to be free of purpose; to be in the now and completely non-attached.
Hence, free of purpose.
:-)

()

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Welcome Ian,

And this seems real enough. However, I often wonder if letting go of our purposes for others may be more crucial to our salvation, or being in the now, than letting go of the purpose we have imposed upon the 'self.'

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Letting go of purposes for others and being in the now is a crucial and I believe most difficult work, indeed, Mike, thank you for this,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hi Nicole and mikeS,
To add to my comment. Notice that I said, “The ultimate purpose … . .” This refers to the spiritual, and main, purpose. There is also the Earthly purpose - and this appears to be a contradiction. However, there is no contradiction because in Earthly life a sense of purpose coupled with a sense of duty and responsibility is necessary lest we drift aimlessly or hole up in a monastery or cave. Does this make sense?
The Earthly life is the means to the end whilst the ultimate purpose is the cessation of all Earthly activity [except in exceptional cases].
()

Re: Freedom From Purpose

That makes wonderful sense, dear Ian. Thanks so much for clarifying,

Much love,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Let Us Entertain a Theoretical Extreme Example, because Extreme Examples can be
so Illuminating.

A series of Mishaps, misunderstandings, and Accidents leave Us stranded in the Wilderness, in the Winter, no transportation, the roads closed, no cellies, no computers, no companions, and few supplies.

Likewise, another Visitor to the Area is similarly stranded, similarly desperate.

Both running out of patience, and supplies, You both independently strike out to get help.  You meet at the Crossroads, total strangers.

Everything that was Important to You to Do has been totally changed.  Now, survival and rescue is the prime directive. You both look at each other, knowing what is going on in each others minds, and make the choice to unload your Dharma, and Join together to achieve a common purpose for both.

Liking each other is not an issue. You are both helpmates to achieve what is desired by both. Appearances dont matter. Common views of the World, Religion, Race, and Nationality dont matter. You have both decided to offload all that crap.

You choose to accept, to trust each other, because that is a must.  You run Your plans by each other, listening carefully, and coming up with a plan of survival and rescue. You share each others stories, lives, loves and friends, your hope for the future, your expectations of yourself, your fears, your joys, your memories.

Because You Both bonded so successfully, discarded your Duty, and Your Plans for a common plan, adopted a new duty, a new plan of action, You Both Survive and are
rescued.

————————————————————————————————

Where did this miraculous miracle come from ?

It all came from the willingness to bond, to disengage ourselves from our sacred purpose and attachments, in order to engage ourselves into a higher purpose.

We go thru life filling ourselves up with purpose and duty and karma, until our cup
becomes full, and stops being filled.  We stagnate, and do not progress, and We do not know why.

We must periodically empty Our Cup, when a New Pathbringer comes into Our Life, one who brings Us a Higher Purpose, to fill ourselves with fresh water of Life,
to be Renewed in Each Other, to Demonstrate that Bond that connects all of Us
to Our Source.

For it is not in the full or empty cup that we succeed or fail.
It is in failing to maintain the flow into the cup.
Life is a stream, and no step into a stream yields the same water.

Our Water has stagnated, because We Hoarded it,
And the Pathbringer Friend brought Us Life, and We embraced it.

Maintain the Flow….Namaste…Torchholder

Re: Freedom From Purpose

or, the other outcome is that you both freeze to death, together…which will more than likely happen unless one of you knows the practice of inner heat, or can actually make a fire by rubbing two rocks or sticks together, while the other one goes and tries to catch a bird or squirrel or something…rest and replenish your strength, so that when the sun comes up again, you can walk to safety…

at any rate, if you just sit there and bond or wait for a miracle, you will more than likely die…

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Awwww Starlight you spoilt a beautiful story… and I thought they could live happily ever after….

Torchholder your example excludes the possibility of Darwins theory of natural selection so that the stronger of the two kills the weaker for his supplies and to promote a stronger hardier mankind in future generations.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Sorry I shouldn't have posted before I took my anti-depressants.

Assuming the 2 aren't THAT desperate to survive that they try to kill each other, they could see the circumstances as a common enemy and join forces to try to overcome their situation.

But human nature being what it is once the danger had  passed and the enemy removed, history dictates they would return to their old lifestyles and prejudices as if nothing had happened.

Now where are those damned pills….

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Torchholder,

You meet at the Crossroads, total strangers.

Aha!! The operative engagement that annihilates all past meaninings.

Everything that was Important to You to Do has been totally changed.  Now, survival and rescue is the prime directive. You both look at each other, knowing what is going on in each others minds, and make the choice to unload your Dharma, and Join together to achieve a common purpose for both.

Extreme example yes, but easy to conceive in concrete rather than abstract terms.

Liking each other is not an issue. You are both helpmates to achieve what is desired by both. Appearances dont matter. Common views of the World, Religion, Race, and Nationality dont matter. You have both decided to offload all that crap.

Of course! What care can the ego-self have with another, other than aiding in its self-preservation since, as far as the ego can conceptualize, this is the only “life” there is.

You choose to accept, to trust each other, because that is a must.

Certainly! Now you must dissolve your general mistrust of all humanity, because it will be only a joining with humanity that can save you. The hero's journey was always meant to be a shared journey.

You share each others stories, lives, loves and friends, your hope for the future, your expectations of yourself, your fears, your joys, your memories.

No doubt about it. For in the moments you are not completely immersed in survival issues, your trust forces you deeper into one another, since one another is all you have.

We go thru life filling ourselves up with purpose and duty and karma, until our cup
becomes full, and stops being filled.  We stagnate, and do not progress, and We do not know why.

The ego must compromise with absurdity in order to extract sense from nonsense. Egoic meanings make delusion “real,” since “real” is an ego construct and has no bearing outside the mind.

We must periodically empty Our Cup, when a New Pathbringer comes into Our Life, one who brings Us a Higher Purpose, to fill ourselves with fresh water of Life,
to be Renewed in Each Other, to Demonstrate that Bond that connects all of Us
to Our Source.

That does seem the case. However, the ego cannot choose the “Pathbringer” because by so doing it has chosen the path which, of course, is just more compromises with absurdity or making sense of nonsense.

Great Stuff!
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Such Optimism from Enlightened Ones.! Did I Enter the Wrong Group? Disillusionment with Disillusionment, or am I being lovingly challenged ?

I have no respect for Darwin. He did more damage to God and Man and Science
more than any Anthropologist ever did.

 When You Kill God, Tell Man He is nothing more than an Ape Removed,
 and Elevate Science above God, the Universe is Standing on its Head.

I thought this was Fully Engaged, not Recently Divorced.

————————————————————————————————————–
Quote - Topic

Failure to conform to your purpose for me, is a reflection of my betrayal of you, and vice versa, and betrayal will then be our shared purpose.

—————————————————————————————————————-

Is This an Object Lesson, Brothers and Sisters ? Did I Just Volunteer to Run the Gauntlet ? If so, then…ReParte'

—————————————————————————————————————

Quote

Make no mistake, you have determined my purpose, as I determine yours and, therefore, there is no escape from conforming to our mutually assigned purpose
—————————————————————————————————————-

Since I Assumed that I was ON Topic, and Made My Entry, I guess I can assume
that We were Not Fully Engaged, because I left this Post on Your Doorstep.

I assume the after posts were a correction of my purpose in being here, or
am I wrong in both Topic, Post, and Mutual Purpose as Defined by All Participants ?

Since Feedback does not happen in a Vacuum, I would appreciate some straight talk about pointing My brain in the right direction, since My first post evidently bombed. 

Namaste, Torchholder 

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Yes, I confess, I was challenging your hypothesis… the real world crept in.

Your post didn't bomb so much as fizzle out.

An account was written, I don't remember the name, of an aeroplane crash, true story, where the survivors had to live by eating the flesh of the deceased, until they were finally rescued when one of their number trekked off into the wilderness and was able to reach help. 

When I read your example I couldn't help reflecting on those crash victims and the reality of what they went through to survive. 

Survival was what dominated their experience and conversation, little else mattered.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Torchholder,

I thought this was Fully Engaged, not Recently Divorced.

Fully engaged is a concept that most actually believe they facilitate, but due to the intense egoic fear surrounding such depth of engagement, we barely leave the surface (but we will insist we are “fully engaged”). Actually ego likes to go off on its own spiritual pursuits and takes little concern for the plight of others, proclaiming, “first I must save myself, and then I'll come back for the others.”

I assume the after posts were a correction of my purpose in being here, or
am I wrong in both Topic, Post, and Mutual Purpose as Defined by All Participants?

Actually, it seems your post was apropos and a direct hit.

Thanks!
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Ah So, So the Past Rears Its Ugly Head, Even In New Stories.

You Just Proved the Point of How the Past Intrudes into the Present 
——————————————————————————————————-
Quote -

Until then, we will continue to insist on (and deny) each others purpose and

 that will keep us reliant on the past in determining the purpose of the world
—————————————————-

This Reminds Me to Beware of the Past influencing the Now.

Thank You for Your Expanded Response. Torchholder

(All's Fair in Love and Discussion ! heheheheheh..!!)

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Glad I could help prove your point my friend.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Yes, I think you will see that all the members of this “pod” have a purpose for one another and the longer they remain engaged the more pronounced that purpose will become…here in this little microcosm of the world.

That's because purposes determined in the past must be continually reinforced. Seek to alter your assigned purpose and you will be roundly condemned (conceptually speaking).

mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I See This Topic as a Welcome Home Group,
where, as in a Family,
We grow closer, correct each other, get angry,
defend each other, help each other to see our point of view,
 try to see each others point of view, tease each other,
discuss the merits and failings of our issues,
criticize each others choice of path,
of emphasis, of good habits and bad habits,
 laziness, obsessive behavior,
practicality, seriousness,

 but all in the interest of progress for the common goal
of each other and the family here.

 Is this correct, or partially correct, or not correct at all ?

Since My Last Post, I Am Unsure which Direction the Current is Flowing.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I See This Topic as a Welcome Home Group,
where, as in a Family,
We grow closer, correct each other, get angry,
defend each other, help each other to see our point of view,
 try to see each others point of view, tease each other,
discuss the merits and failings of our issues,
criticize each others choice of path,
of emphasis, of good habits and bad habits,
 laziness, obsessive behavior,
practicality, seriousness,

 but all in the interest of progress for the common goal
of each other and the family here.

That seems quite accurate.

Since My Last Post, I Am Unsure which Direction the Current is Flowing.

“Current” is a disease which it may be best to avoid, if possible.
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I See This Topic as a Welcome Home Group,
where, as in a Family,

 
I'm the black sheep of the family, the uncle that always has just a little too much to drink at family functions, the one that hasn't quite got the knack of etiquette, a touch outspoken, two left feet on the dancefloor, the bull in the china shop, as welcome in the happy clappy back slapping love and light pods as a pork chop at a Bar Mitzvah.

But I'm like a teddy bear… very cuddly… and harmless

Thought I should confess before standing on anyones toes.

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Robert, Andrew, Mike, yep, we are just one big happy dysfunctional family here, like every other happy family (Tolstoy said famously in his intro to Anna Karenina that all happy families are the same, but unhappy families are each unhappy in a unique way lol). We all love each other, step on each other's toes at times, kiss and make up… usual family stuff.

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

what i love about this group, and it seems to be unique to this group, is we can really be honest here…let it all hang out…say what is really on our minds for the most part without the 'family' so-to-speak ganging up on us and shaming us or guilting us into their truths…or trying to make us toe any kind of line…or fit into a box…

hey Nic…*

Re: Freedom From Purpose

“But I'm like a teddy bear… very cuddly… and harmless.”

Oh Puhleeeeaaaase!

I'm suddenly feeling a bit nauseous…
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

I knew it!  I knew it! 

You wanted to be known as the black sheep didn't you Mike but I beat you to it…

Now you're hissy fitting 'cos I'm cute and cuddly as well.

Tuff - Deal with it…

Re: Freedom From Purpose

“black sheep”????

Dude, I'm the official “Cultivator” (note the capitalization denoting sacredness) and your very participation…

…is at my discretion.

Always keep that in mind!
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Oh, the official “Cultivator”, is it?

Bowing low,

:) Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Not too low!!

I wouldn't want to be mistaken for a Japanese emperor…
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Our Great Mikado,Virtuous Man!

O Mikado, live forever!

Kowtowing,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

O Great and Wonderful Omniscient Omnipotent Cultivator -

I am overwhelmed that your Grace would permit such an unworthy, unwashed, dungbeetle-on-the-foodchain-of-life, despised, ignorant, unlearned, uncultured, uncouth, humble pimple on the arts-end of humanity enjoy your most magnificient presence on this most wisely and wonderfully crafted pod among pods.

I shall not sleep because of the wonder and majesty of the privelege.

- Your most devoted vagrant

Re: Freedom From Purpose

what he said :)

hugs from one dungbeetle to another,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

The Calling to Enlightenment inspires the Seeker, and He sifts thru truths, and carefully sorts until He/She finds them, and holds them to Him/Her like precious jewels, and seeks out others of like mind and philosophy.

 finding this, He/She gets attached to this, and entrenches, and gets comfortable, not realizing that He/She has only made Camp along the Great Journey of the Golden Path, and then gets to

 the Next Level, where He/She has to discard treasures in order to find even greater treasures. The process of discarding treasures is a Boot Camp where the Self must be Voluntarily Subdued,
 in Order to find the next higher level of Integration, which is coexistance with peers upon the path.

This means confrontation, temper tantrums, deprogramming and self deprogramming, and modification of behavior, and interaction with the group,
 in order to achieve a reasonable consensus.

 Part and Parcel of this is the inevitable el vita loca response and venting thru anger, hurt, and humor, to explore the full gamut of emotional defenses,
 in order to develop the resourcefulness necessary to achieve a reasonable level of cooperation with the greater group.

Does this Sound like a Reasonable Explanation of what is going on Here ? 

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Hmmmm….seems reasonable enough.

The process of discarding treasures is a Boot Camp where the Self must be Voluntarily Subdued, in Order to find the next higher level of Integration, which is coexistance with peers upon the path.

Not so sure about that, though. Subduing or subjugating the ego-self is certainly a conventional part of spirituality and emphasized by many such ideologies. Problem with that is it may result in disengagement from the very ones who will facilitate “enlightenment” (which is anyone not designated a “teacher” by the ego). Besides, an ego seeking to transcend itself tends to be a rather comedic sight. Gaia offers this type of comedy relief in many pods (sometimes even here!)

This means confrontation, temper tantrums, deprogramming and self deprogramming, and modification of behavior, and interaction with the group,
 in order to achieve a reasonable consensus.

It seems to me a “reasonable consensus” is a finite outcome and antithetical of the infinite game that we all play (not to mention, the rules then imposed). I suppose if we ever reach a consensus in this group, it will then be time for me to slip out the back Jack, make no plan Stan, just hop on the bus Gus….outa here….

However, no doubt the emotional “Sturm and Drang” is certainly indicative of seeking “enlightenment,” if it is authentic egoic disturbance. I often wonder why folks tend to become so easily frightened by their emotions.

Nevertheless, yours is still a “Reasonable Explanation of what is going on Here”
And most likely there are many other such explanations.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

G'day Torchholder,

Is the process the Seeker 'finding' the truth or 'awakening' to the truth?

I came across a quote a long time ago which has stuck with me -

It isn't until you have lost (discarded) everything that you are free to do anything.

It seems that in the search for enlightenment it is more appropriately understood as a revealing or uncovering of something that has always been there rather than discovering something brand new to the awareness.

Can it be any other way?

Re: Freedom From Purpose

It seems that in the search for enlightenment it is more appropriately understood as a revealing or uncovering of something that has always been there rather than discovering something brand new to the awareness.

Seems logical. However, to say that what was once covered or undisclosed is now uncovered or revealed makes “enlightenment” a product of time and not the timelessness we tend to affiliate with as “enlightenment.”

If 'truth is timeless, can 'timelessness' have a before and an after?

Maybe there is actually NO uncovering or revealing of something that has always been there, but a creation of something entirely new. Possibly truth is actually waiting to be created collectively, as soon as we can get our heads out our 'spiritual' asses and get together in creating it. Until then, maybe what we got is “real” just not true. However, most of us believe it's true and so, have no interest in creating anything new and so go stumbling around searching for a truth behind what's there, even though there's nothing behind it…yet

Maybe we keep failing to find what “has always been there,” because there's never been anything there. At least, until we put it there.

Seem plausible to me…
mikeS

Re: Freedom From Purpose

The more I read you, the more you sound like my Robert. This is fascinating. I think you have a very good handle on what is happening here, and I salute you,

with deep bows,

Nicole

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Thanx, Nicole, You Lovely Creature….!!!

 BTW, My Name is Robert, too, but I subverted Him when I decided to be the Parent and Control His Scorpio Tendencies.

 Is He good for HImself ? Yes. Is He good for Others ? Not Likely.

He is something of a loose cannon, with friend and foe ducking every time He decides to Champion a Cause.

So, now I am the Parent, and the Child, Working on the Sage Grandfather.

Wonderful. Actually, at My age, I will Have to Be Child, Parent, and Sage Grandparent, all at the same time.

 LOL !! I am a nice guy, and so am i, and so am i.

I am a walking Trinity. Appropriate, I suppose, for someone seeking to Connect to His Source, God.

The subject of uncovering what is already within us intrigues Me.

I believe It is there, If only a Genetic Memory planted in Our Subconcious,
deep within our sub-brain.  The Mystic Holy Men could access that, and they called it “the Knowing”, or “talking to the Ancestors”.

Another category of Self that could be hidden from Us, could be repressed by Our Fears, Our Attitudes, or Our Truths, Wisdoms, or The Guru within, or Our Belief System, or View of the World.

If We are brave enough to turn these over, leaf by leaf, we may find these hidden jewels. Failing discovery, We can always put the leaves back, knowing they were not merely bandaids for our ego.

A Third Significant Area for Uncovering is the Inner Creative Child, an area much neglected in Adults.  The Inner Child maintains an exuberance, a newness and a wonder with the world, and when inspired, is the Creative Muse of the Artist, Poet, Writer, and Thinker.

It is up to Us, to Nurture and Love Our Inner Child, to show Him that We Value Him, and that He is an equal partner in Our Life, contributing His special gifts to Our collaborative Self.  Once We do this, the floodgates of Creativity and Inspiration will Open, and We can function with the exuberance and innocence of Children, Untired, and No More DisIllusioned with the World.

Isnt this what We really miss in the World ? To see the World thru Untired Eyes?

Jesus Understood this Concept. “Suffer the Children to Come Unto Me”.
and “Unless You enter My Fathers Kingdom as a Child, You will not enter in”.

The Most difficult place to find things is in plain sight.

How many of Us cant find things in our own home, although We know it has to be there ?

 How much more so, when We never knew it was there, in the first place ?

Reactions, Team ? 

Re: Freedom From Purpose

Oh, I can so relate to this!


How many of Us cant find things in our own home, although We know it has to be there ?

 How much more so, when We never knew it was there, in the first place ?


and this


It is up to Us, to Nurture and Love Our Inner Child, to show Him that We Value Him, and that He is an equal partner in Our Life, contributing His special gifts to Our collaborative Self.  Once We do this, the floodgates of Creativity and Inspiration will Open, and We can function with the exuberance and innocence of Children, Untired, and No More DisIllusioned with the World.

Isnt this what We really miss in the World ? To see the World thru Untired Eyes?


Thank you so much!


Love,


Nicole