Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Do the “lightworkers” realize that the more entertaining life is, the more its opposite, death, is accentuated? This is nothing more than the dualistic logic of contrasting opposites. It stands to reason that the more you find your ‘self’ entertained by all the grandiose hoopla of living (as you define it), the more your seeking to avoid death will become paramount?

Why else do we seek “enlightenment” if not to find a way to cheat death? Obviously, the most effective means of avoiding death is denial. Yet, unfortunately, this rarely works, however, along the spectrum of denial, denying that we deny is crucial to continuing to deny. Ha!

Do you have good “healthcare,” eat healthy, exercise, take vitamins and get plenty of rest? Do you wear your seatbelt? Well then, statistically speaking, you may live 8.5 years longer but, make no mistake, you’re still guaranteed to die.
Of course, there is no guarantee on living and, like the running guru, Jim Fixx (“The Complete Book of Running”), you could drop dead while on your daily jog around the park.

Yet, many claim it’s not quantity of life they seek to improve, but quality (entertainment). Nevertheless, this inevitably means that the greater the entertainment factor the less you will want the show to end. The more you embrace life, the more you will seek to extend it, quantitatively.

This is why pervasively and deeply depressed people often entertain, and even commit, suicide, since they have finally surrendered any chance of quality entertainment, even though they’ve been taught that their purpose is to work hard at finding it (more work than the ”lightworkers” could possibly imagine).
This all begs the question, why make any such distinctions whatsoever? Why spend your entire life seeking out ‘meaningful’ entertainment, only to “wink out” (love that expression) after a statistically specified time?

Because you’re an ego and that’s what egos happily learn to do, make entertaining distinctions in defining “happiness.”

In fact, that’s all egos can do is make ‘relative’ conventional distinctions between contrasting opposites: this is good, that is bad, this is ugly, that is beautiful, I love this, I hate that, etc, etc, etc, (up and down we go, along the ‘relative’ spectrum of entertainment).

It’ll be a cold day in hell before you stop making distinctive judgments, because to do so would mean that “you” (identity) will cease to be entertained and without the proper entertainment, the ego would perish, because egos must be entertained. 

 “With the lights out its less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
Yea

Hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello”
(Nirvana)

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

i knew this song, and didn`t know i did - didn`t know you were a nirvana fan, mike…

i will be grateful to die, too much to do first to die right now though…

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Goodness me MikeS, you can't tar all the lightworkers with the same brush like that.

Many are diligent, caring, compassionate, loving concerned individuals that are following their hearts and genuinely doing everything they know how to help make this a better world, and in so doing improving their own lives and those they come in contact with.

It doesn't mean they have to refrain from blessing each other to encourage one another. More power to them.

I hold them in higher regard than people who hide in caves and monasteries and the like because, though the lightworkers results may not be spectacular and their way of approaching problems alien to your formal education and intellectual reasoning, many are seeking answers while trying to address the issues they take on.

You may remember I sought help from the lightworkers to address the Parkinsons disease which has afflicted my brain and my body.  Was I healed? No.  Did the lightworkers fail? Not yet.  Medical science has been trying to find a cure for Pd for over 50 years and so far has failed to do so. In the interests of non discrrimination I think the lightworkers should be given equal time.  If I am still afflicted in 49 years, THEN I will declare whatever it is that they do a failure.

BTW I didn't start to seek enlightenment to avoid death but in the hope that I may have a better understanding of why I'm alive.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Goodness me MikeS, you can't tar all the lightworkers with the same brush like that.

Sure I can!

Many are diligent, caring, compassionate, loving concerned individuals that are following their hearts and genuinely doing everything they know how to help make this a better world, and in so doing improving their own lives and those they come in contact with.

But those aren't “lightworkers.”

Aus!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

What are “lightworkers”?  (I'm genuinely curious)

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Andrew,

I'm with you in your definition.  I found nothing in error.  Yes, it would be very interesting, if Mike could define for us - who he is referring to, by characteristics that we might recognize.

In my experience, Mike is very much like my 8 year old.  He seeks to alleviate his own boredom by stimulating interactions with others; and the kind he craves have an intensity that triggering the emotions in others brings.  Hmmm … based upon this remark of mine, I must share traits in common with both of them.  ROLFLMAO.  There is a reason this site is known (in short) as the “Games People Play”.

Nice to see you back among us, sir - Andrew.

Peace & Blessings -
Deb

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Dear Deb,

Ha! If you don't like the message, no reason to excoriate the messenger. Would you prefer I named names? nah….that'd be rude.

In my experience, Mike is very much like my 8 year old.  He seeks to alleviate his own boredom by stimulating interactions with others; and the kind he craves have an intensity that triggering the emotions in others brings.

oh goody! psychoanalysis time. LOL! Actually I've started numerous non-controversial posts since this group's inception. Hmmm…I must've missed your contributions there.

But nevermind, here you are now!!

yes, some topics can be quite difficult to contemplate and i have never claimed ownership of truth. Are you saying that, therefore, they should not be discussed? Keep in mind, I do not personally attack anyone. However, if my comments hit home for some folks…well…I suppose that often cannot be helped.

Actually the pod was originally entitled “Fully Engages in the Games of Life.” However, that titled relied too rigidly on “Finite and Infinite Games” so we shortened it to Fully Engaged.

Looks like you've added a bit more down below. Off to your next post, then…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike,

Just checking in here, to see what you are up to these days.  You are consistent and playing the same songs over and over, like the continuously repeating turn of the wheel.  Birth and death, love and hate, failure and success.  Round and round we go, and stopping not, we know.

As you know, metaphysics and the realm of the spiritual are heart-felt pursuits for my own Self.  I do not seek to cheat death.  There are no survivors on Earth.  Have you ever been there present with one who is dying or has just died ?  I have.  Twice in the last 2 years.  Oh, death is very real to me.  Yet, it does not dissuade me from my enjoyments.  Yes, I do find my “pursuits” entertaining.  Perhaps, that IS the simple reason why, I do these things.

There is no where to arrive, no enlightenment to arrive at.  There is just the journey and we are fellow travelers.  I find it amusing that you fight against the mysteries of life so hard that you must know that in truth life can not be explained and that mysteries are real.  That there are things that happen in life that can not be explained.  Whatever explanation we individually wish to apply is as good as the next and as true.

Now, “healthcare” is a good down-to-earth physical topic.  The reason to take care of oneself as much as possible is that the alternative is quite disagreeable.  Having not any insurance to count on should I simply live my life with abandon, I take caring for myself very seriously.  Even so, all the efforts I might make will not cheat death.  To my knowledge that “rarely” word you use above, can not possibly be true.  All physical manifestations wear out and are recycled and returned to the Earth, it is simply the way of it.  And all the efforts I may make, to care for myself, may not prevent my experience of illness.  One takes things one day at a time; as it all unfolds and yes, it is quite entertaining.  Even suffering is something for the awareness to explore.

I do take exception to all of your premises.  First, to expand consciousness is to believe that it exists beyond the physical Ego self.  Have you met your core essence?  I have, and as we become better acquainted, my ego (which is a construct with which to move through this particular time and space) welcomes the company and the context such awareness provides.  However, if one knows not that experience, one can not judge what it must be like.

I believe happiness and entertainment are not the only goals in life but many of us grew to maturity with that as our only goal - to have fun and be “happy”.  I know because I was that way, too.  However, I believe what the Self is really seeking is deep and meaningful experience and some achieve that by service, others achieve that by suffering, some achieve that by overcoming and others achieve that by choosing when to leave their physical life behind.  We can not “get it wrong”.  I guarantee that much.

I am not poking at you dear friend to cause distress, you are just too much fun to tease; and I am in such a good mood today, that I could not resist.

Peace & Blessings -
Deb

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Deb,

You are consistent and playing the same songs over and over, like the continuously repeating turn of the wheel.  Birth and death, love and hate, failure and success.

hmmm…aren't we all playing the same song and dance. “Birth and death, love and hate, failure and success” are existential concepts that we all experience over and over again. Are you saying that what is presented in your pod is all fresh and new? I'm not sure what your point is?

Have you ever been there present with one who is dying or has just died ?  I have.  Twice in the last 2 years.  Oh, death is very real to me.  Yet, it does not dissuade me from my enjoyments.  Yes, I do find my “pursuits” entertaining.  Perhaps, that IS the simple reason why, I do these things.

Yes, I worked in a hospice for several years as a social worker before entering private practice, as well as attending to the deaths of a few loved ones throughout the years.

You seem somewhat on the defensive, Deb. Do you actually think my initial post was directed at you???

There is no where to arrive, no enlightenment to arrive at.  There is just the journey and we are fellow travelers.  I find it amusing that you fight against the mysteries of life so hard that you must know that in truth life can not be explained and that mysteries are real.  That there are things that happen in life that can not be explained.  Whatever explanation we individually wish to apply is as good as the next and as true.

I certainly agree there is not “enlightenment.” “Fight against the mysteries of life”? You perceive questions as “fighting.” It may, in fact, be true that “the mysteries of life can not be explained” so you would rather we simply refuse to try?
However, some explanations seek only to deny and avoid the mysteries of life and are counterproductive in that they impede engagement with life.

I do take exception to all of your premises.  First, to expand consciousness is to believe that it exists beyond the physical Ego self.

You are free to take exception with everything I write as is anyone else. I did not start this pod to collect agreeable clones. I started this pod to engage together in digging into the depth of these beliefs we often hold sacred.

Consciousness can exist beyond the ego-self. However, i would suggest not trashing the ego-self in the pursuit. That's all….

Have you met your core essence?  I have, and as we become better acquainted, my ego (which is a construct with which to move through this particular time and space) welcomes the company and the context such awareness provides.  However, if one knows not that experience, one can not judge what it must be like.

I never dispute experiences that people claim to have, as I am not privy to anothers interior. However, if we inject an experience with words and concepts it then becomes philosophy and debatable. To ask me if I have met my core essence is a philosophical fallacy since what you label as “core essence,” i may label with some other term. This, therefore, easily negates your comment “if one knows not that experience, one can not judge what it must be like.” Are you saying you have ownership of a specific truth that others are not privy to?

However, I believe what the Self is really seeking is deep and meaningful experience and some achieve that by service, others achieve that by suffering, some achieve that by overcoming and others achieve that by choosing when to leave their physical life behind.  We can not “get it wrong”.  I guarantee that much.

Maybe…maybe not. However, I make no guarantees, since I set no rules.

I am not poking at you dear friend to cause distress, you are just too much fun to tease; and I am in such a good mood today, that I could not resist.

Yes you are. But that's okay. I have no fear of my vulnerability.

Poke away anytime, my friend!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike,

You do not disappoint.

Nice to visit you once more.

Deb

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Deb,

Happy to have engaged with you!

No matter how brief it may be…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

hi all.
andrew - great to “see” you!

deb …  the core essence… mmmm…. perhaps mike will have something to say about that.  for me - looking at my own experiences with what i have previously called my core essence… well - i don't know… everything to me these days seems to be a construct… some subtler than others…  but that's just me.

regardless - in the realm of relating and relationships (and that's all life seems to be for me these days) there is the opportunity to help each other through various means… whether you call yourself a light worker or not…

yes - there are various levels degrees of delusion, various degrees of egoic wannabeism…, various identifications, various attractions based on identifications…  AND STILL through all of that - in the relating - that which we cannot escape - we affect others … we feel effect of others…

mmm…. somehow we seem to do the best we can… whether in delusion …. or not.  (and not being in delusion can be delusion too!!)

absentee moderator
christine

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

This is a quote that I felt fit as a response:

“For the smallest social unit is not the single person but two people. In life we develop one another.”

From Brecht's 'A Short Organum for the Theatre'

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Welcome lal386!

“For the smallest social unit is not the single person but two people. In life we develop one another.”

I've never heard of Brecht's “A short Organum for the Theatre,” however, the quote is very apropos.

Many of the posts that I have written echo that statement. The ego-self was not constructed in solitude and it will not awaken in solitude. Truth will not be discovered alone, but created together.

I'm amazed at how this strikes some folks as so anti-spiritual.

Thanks!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Isn't that what “no man is an island means”?

There is only IS.  What is.  And how that is interpreted - subjectively, objectively, howeverly.

Now, help me refine those erroneous thoughts, pretty please ?

Geez, I don't think I “fit” well here.  It's just a feeling I get, when I try to join in.  Why is it, that I only really feel that, so completely - here?  Humbling, yes, that is good for me, I'm sure.

Anyway, I really came by, just to say Hi to my old friend Andrew …

Mike - you missed your calling.  I really think you should have become a lawyer ! ! !  ROTFLMAO. 

Go figure that one out - analyze away, my ? friend.  Oh gosh, I must be a glutton for punishment, why do I do this? 

Sigh, I just don't fit.  I don't feel “welcome” at all.  I feel like I've just walked into debate class.

Yep, this is just too uncomfortable to subject myself to.  I can feel it too plainly.

Back into my hole for awhile … maybe permanently, this time.

Ah, I get it ! ! !  ARE YOU GUYS ENTERTAINED YET ?  Good.  That's perfect.

Deb
LMAO too

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Interesting deflection Deb,

You compare me to an 8 yr old and then accuse me of, “… playing the same songs over and over, like the continuously repeating turn of the wheel.”

And then complain that you don't fit or feel welcome????

I just responded to your comments (which came out of the blue, I might add), but my responses do not comply with your standards.

I suppose you're right, Deb, maybe you should only converse in pods were everyone agrees with you. Pods that appeal to your sensibilities, fragile as they may be.

However, if you want to get real, then stop in anytime.

YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME HERE!!!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

I'll be your friend if you're in need of one Deb.

I offer understanding, empathy and the right hand of friendship to those who feel they are outcast, unpopular or just 'different'.
 
(- From my profile)

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Welcome back absentee moderator!

everything to me these days seems to be a construct… some subtler than others…  but that's just me.

Sure. Why couldn't the core essence also be an ego construct, since most likely every other experience is. What's wrong with ego constructs?

there is the opportunity to help each other through various means…

Yea, kinda like the merging of ego constructs in which the two become one.

Hope you'll hang around for a bit, Christine!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Hi Deb and Christine,

Well Mike I'm here now and yes I've been entertained.  It is always a pleasure to be reaquainted with a couple of beautiful ladies.

However you haven't answered my original question…

What are lightworkers?

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Andrew,

Here is an old blog post that touches on a definition.

Charge of the Light Brigade.

Hope this helps!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike I followed the link and read your blog.


I think you've overlooked an important aspect in underestimating the love, wisdom and influence the genuine lightworkers have on those you refer to in your blog.


I gave a lot of thought to how I would approach getting involved in Gaia.com this time around because I didn't want to make the same mistakes I made last time

.
If someone professed to be a psychoanalyst witchdoctor or whatever it is you do, and they started sprouting off trying to act cool in the hope they would be elevated in other peoples esteem because they had none of their own, you would pick up pretty quickly if they were the real deal or not.


The would be's if they could be's that you refer to that think they are so beloved and esteemed among the genuine lightworkers are deluded. They clearly don't realise how obvious their charade is, to all but the extremely naive.


But I suspect those that are sincere surround them with love and acceptance to help them make their illusion a reality. 

More power to them


I decided this time round not to get bogged down in other peoples business but to let those issues work themselves out.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

If someone professed to be a psychoanalyst witchdoctor or whatever it is you do, and they started sprouting off trying to act cool in the hope they would be elevated in other peoples esteem because they had none of their own, you would pick up pretty quickly if they were the real deal or not.

I have no idea what that means.

Splain' Lucy!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

MikeS…

You would be aware that there are people that think that your chosen profession is an inexact science, a form of sorcery perhaps, because you deal with a type of health problem that can be 'created' or exacerbated by uncouth practitioners of your form of therapy to prolong a clients reliance on them… hypocrits in other words.

I expect that as an experienced professional you would recognise this type of charlatan very quickly.

I used you as an example purely to demonstrate that the authentic lightworkers would know those in their midst that fit the description in your blog.

I've made a quality decision to let them deal with their own.

I don't profess to be a' lightworker', I'm not even sure how much territory the term embraces but the fact that I may be able to spot a phoney that professes to be 'spiritual' doesn't necessarily imply the responsibility is on me to do something about it.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Andrew,

Ah yes…..Can you hear it? That sound?

The sound of the Gaia “iluminati” (your term) unblocking your admission to their inner circle.

Congrats, Aus!!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

You'd be hearing things Mike…

I have no desire to associate with those of Gaias illuminati that've chosen to block me since I rejoined, particularly as it has happened without any attempt on my part to try to contact them.

It just further demonstrates the hypocracy of their position.

On one hand extolling the virtues of communicating love, light, peace and understanding while at the same time trying to reinflame my past known prejudice towards the blatant abuse of the blocking function, demonstrating they want to create trouble.

I want no part of their nasty little games…

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike and Andrew, so much love to you both,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

You are beautiful Nicole however you are unlikely to stop MikeS from trying to antagonise me or my responding in kind, in the interests of science, of course.

I'm sure he was a real brat as a kid, not sweetness and light like you and I were.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

I have no control whatsoever over Mike, Andrew, of course I have always known that.

That doesn't stop me from spreading love and light wherever I wish though :)

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Dear Mike, Deb, Andrew,

It has gotten very exciting in this thread suddenly, that had slept peacefully since Sept 10.

Deb, I am glad you came here to discuss this. Sorry you don't feel welcome though :(

Andrew, as always you make very helpful remarks.

So, Mike, reading over your original post again, I find I have a couple of remarks of my own.

Why else do we seek “enlightenment” if not to find a way to cheat death? Obviously, the most effective means of avoiding death is denial. Yet, unfortunately, this rarely works, however, along the spectrum of denial, denying that we deny is crucial to continuing to deny. Ha! 


It seems that you have effectively painted us all in a very small corner. If I say that I am not preoccupied with the fear of death, then I am in denial, and if I say I am not, I am in denial about denial. 


I believe in eternal life. Perhaps that is just delusion. I don't know, but we will all find out eventually (one way or another). But I don't preoccupy myself with the afterlife or death. I live, as fully as possible. For me, this is what enlightenment is about, to live and love and be, more and more of our full potential. Exciting stuff. 


Why spend your entire life seeking out ‘meaningful’ entertainment, only to “wink out” (love that expression) after a statistically specified time? 


I can think of many answers. Because life is rich and happy and fulfilling that way. Because we can enrich the lives of others, become more loving people, help others to love more. Even were I to die today, it would all have been worth it.


Love you so much,


Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

That reminds me MikeS, you didn't comment on my response to the wanting to avoid death question when I said -

I didn't start to seek enlightenment to avoid death but in the hope that I may have a better understanding of why I'm alive.
 
Surely you're not going to wink out on it are you?

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Andrew,

All your grand plans of self-fulfillment and happiness are formulated in response to death. This is because of 'time' and the fact that there is only so much time for which to realize any and all plans before death or time's end.

Many claim that they do not live their “life” with any conscious attention to death. However, they certainly do take into account 'time' and without 'death' there would be no need to account for time. Belief in death manifests the pressing existential need to account for time. Not to mention that, in addition to the brief span of “life” allotted to you, you could still “wink out” at any moment and this adds a sense of urgency to the ego-self intent on survival and “living” by avoiding 'death' (or end of time) at all costs.

Therefore, seeking “enlightenment” is an attempt to cheat death, since our physical existence is entirely sculpted by time and time is only limited because of death. The understanding, or experience, all “enlightenment” seekers wish to attain, is a wish to transcend time and no longer be victim to time. But 'time' only victimizes you because of death, because without death or an ending to time, you would not be victim.

Therefore, the chief means of transcending time, is to reformulate one's belief of death and this is exactly what most religions and spiritual ideologies attempt to do through specialized concepts such as “heaven” and “nirvana” (which essentially are equivalent). Unfortunately, these concepts help little to provide us comfort until death do us part.

Hope that helps, Aus!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

My own experience contradicts your postulation Mike.

I have no fear of death, perhaps I'm a little apprehensive about how I will die, I hope to wink out suddenly but I have no concerns about when.

I'm not about to knock myself off because I think I must be here for a reason but to date I can only guess.

I want to know and the only way I have found to plumb the depths of my being in the hope of finding the answers is through meditation.

But I am in no way trying to delay my departure from this incarnation nor do I want to risk having to come back because I didn't fulfill my purpose for being here this time.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Andrew,

Meditation???

Why don't ya just drop some good acid. Same neurochemical stimulation, but alot quicker. Besides, it could take you yrs to become “enlightened” through meditation.

In the meantime, just think of all the good you wouldn't be doing for others because you've spent your 'time' hunkered down in the lotus.

But I'm just saying…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike, thought you might enjoy today's daily dharma from Tricycle:

Looking for Meaning
As long as we insist that meditation must be meaningful, we fail to understand it. We meditate with the idea that we’re going to get something from it—that it will lower our blood pressure, calm us down, or enhance our concentration. And, we believe, if we meditate long enough, and in just the right was, it might even bring us to enlightenment.All of this is delusion.
- Steve Hagen, from “www.tricycle.com%2F-cushion%2Flooking-meaning%3Foffer%3Ddharma" target="_blank">Looking For Meaning,” Tricycle, Fall 2003

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

As long as we insist that meditation must be meaningful, we fail to understand it. We meditate with the idea that we’re going to get something from it—that it will lower our blood pressure, calm us down, or enhance our concentration. And, we believe, if we meditate long enough, and in just the right was, it might even bring us to enlightenment.All of this is delusion.

My sentiments exactly! However, there seems little doubt of the rejuvenating and calming effects of stillness and quiet. All the better to bring your 'self' to relationships and really get “enlightened”

Thanks, Nicole I did enjoy that!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

My pleasure, Mike!

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Dear Nicole,

It seems that you have effectively painted us all in a very small corner. If I say that I am not preoccupied with the fear of death, then I am in denial, and if I say I am not, I am in denial about denial.

Yes, it does seem that life is nothing more than a catch-22, doesn't it?

I believe in eternal life. Perhaps that is just delusion. I don't know, but we will all find out eventually (one way or another). But I don't preoccupy myself with the afterlife or death. I live, as fully as possible. For me, this is what enlightenment is about, to live and love and be, more and more of our full potential. Exciting stuff. 

Well, Nicole, your confidence conveys that you have things pretty much figured out. This is good. I envy those who have it all added up and can communicate that sum to the rest of us.

As for me, I am a bundle of contradictory notions and confusing doubts (which I'm sure my posts frequently exhibit) and this sometimes drives me to severe psychological distraction (or the cusp of insanity).

I have not attained the certainty that others claim and so I continue to haphazardly question. However, although others may become annoyed with my incessant questioning (and the peculiar way that I rhetorically formulate my questions), I have become somewhat comfortable with not knowing and questioning everything that passes my way.

Yet, I must admit, I still do envy those who've figured it all out…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Dear Mike,

How I love you! 

No, I have not got it all figured out. I have my moments of doubt and fear. But yes, I do tend to be a confident leader most of the time, and I do love life and try to embrace it to the full.

I empathise with the severe psychological distraction, which I have frequently experienced while depressed. It sounds very challenging as a basic mode of being and I hope you find a way through.

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Thanks Nicole,

But, no need to empathize because, as I say, I've become quite comfortable with it and actually enjoy it (although others may find it somewhat aggravating).

Peace Angel,
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

You do enjoy it, eh, Mike! Excellent, carry on,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

I am a bundle of contradictory notions and confusing doubts (which I'm sure my posts frequently exhibit) and this sometimes drives me to severe psychological distraction (or the cusp of insanity).

You would see people in your practice every day that share the confusion you have described though I suspect you are more open about it.
　
I would be most surprised if you had a 'cure' for it because I don't believe it's an affliction to be treated but the minds way of saying that it is trying to process data from your awareness for which there is no logical explanation.
　
I don't pretend to know anything about psychology but I suspect that many people become fearful of this confusion and bury it under layers of denial trying to convince themselves there is nothing beyond what is experienced in the sensual realm.
　
Others, like yourself self analyse recognising there is something more but then in an effort to rationalise put your own conditions on whatever it is that lies 'beyond' the sense realm, and if it doesn't comply it, not you, must be wrong.
　
For instance, you insist that for truth to be universal, somehow everybody has to know it to be truth at the same time.
　
Why? Have you been given some divine insight that it should be so?
　
You insist that people that indicate they have exprienced a degree of enlightenment are somehow elitist and totally self serving using their status to ignore the problems of the world.
　
My experience is diametrically opposed to your assumption Mike.
　
I belong to the remainder, the third group that realises there is more to life than the sensual realm and start searching, firstly by seeking out 'enlightened' teachers either live or through their books, At this point you start to recognise those that are genuine, and the rest.
　
I began to realise my preconceived ideas and conditioned beliefs were getting in the way of my search, so I concentrated on unlearning, by studying religious and metaphysical material that was outside my comfort zone.
　
But like everyone seriously seeking enlightenment I realised that what I was looking for couldn't be taught. It was completely personal and had to come from within. The Bible calls it drawing from your own well.
　
Where you come unstuck Mike is in denying others experiences, on the basis of your preconceived ideas, which on the basis of my experience appear to be without foundation.
　
Chill out a bit.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Andrew,

For instance, you insist that for truth to be universal, somehow everybody has to know it to be truth at the same time. Why? Have you been given some divine insight that it should be so?

No “divine insight” here buddy! Just common sense.
For instance, simply examine all those who claim ownership of “truth” and you may find that it is those who claim to lack the truth that determine these others who HAVE IT. For the most part it is the student who determines who the teacher of “divine truth” is. In addition, all this friggin “divine truth” that all these truth-peddlers solicit, has not made a speck of difference in the collective direction of the world. So therefore, maybe none of it is truth at all and it's certainly not absolute truth.

My experience is diametrically opposed to your assumption Mike.

That's fine, dude. You're free to theorize from your experiences as you wish. However, since this is a social forum, once we put into words our experience it then becomes philosophy and is available to disagreement and agreement. I think, in fact, that you'll find most agree with what you espouse since it seems to be the conventional paradigm of spirituality.

I belong to the remainder, the third group that realises there is more to life than the sensual realm and start searching, firstly by seeking out 'enlightened' teachers either live or through their books, At this point you start to recognise those that are genuine, and the rest.

I too realize that there is more to life than the “sensual realm.” However, I do not negate that “sensual realm” by referring to it as illusion, since it is very existentially  “real” for most of us and is a part of the whole. We may be in agreement on this point.
Yet, where we disagree is in the need to seek out teachers, since the teachers are all around you. In your household, in your neighborhood, in your family. This is because it's the ego that stipulates the criteria of the teacher. So find those the ego denies can teach you anything and learn everything you need to know. In fact, i think if you reflect on your life you'll see that those teachers were there, however, you may have denied that anything was learned. The only thing your here for is 'relationship' and nothing else really matters.

I began to realise my preconceived ideas and conditioned beliefs were getting in the way of my search,

Very true. However, they also get in the way of 'relationships' as well.

But like everyone seriously seeking enlightenment I realised that what I was looking for couldn't be taught. It was completely personal and had to come from within. The Bible calls it drawing from your own well.

Here i think we disagree. There is no separate “well” and “within” is the well created from relationship with others and that well is infinite. There is a reason that deeply engaging in loving relationships are so important in this “illusionary” world. Because it is the closest we get 'here' of understanding what's beyond 'here.' The problem may be in your taking all this “seriously.”

Where you come unstuck Mike is in denying others experiences, on the basis of your preconceived ideas, which on the basis of my experience appear to be without foundation.

Au contraire! I never question personal experiences. however, I may question egoic interpretations of such experiences because, as I've stated above, once an experience is communicated in words it then becomes philosophy and philosophy has always been open to doubt and thus, debate.

Chill out a bit.

It's my party and i'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to….

Peace Bro!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

The problem may be in your taking all this “seriously.”
 
If I took this seriously Mike I wouldn't post at all. 

Philosophical discussion is just a socially acceptable intellectual  pissing contest for adults,engaged in for amusement - it might expand a persons understanding of an issue but it really doesn't solve anything.

I never question personal experiences. however, I may question egoic interpretations of such experiences
 
By interpreting others personal experiences according to your 'common sense' criteria you are judging the validity of those experiences Mike.

I don't know what foundation you have for your “common sense” criteria  because it has nothing in common with any train of thought that I've encountered, nor does it make any sense experiencially.

“Mike's Inquisition” would be a far more accurate title for this pod.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Andrew,

If I took this seriously Mike I wouldn't post at all.

I was only basing your taking this too seriously on your earlier post were you wrote, “But like everyone seriously seeking enlightenment I realised that what I was looking for couldn't be taught.” That's all…

Philosophical discussion is just a socially acceptable intellectual  pissing contest for adults,engaged in for amusement - it might expand a persons understanding of an issue but it really doesn't solve anything.

So that means every pod in Gaia is just “a pissing contest for adults, engaged in for amusement”? In fact, are you saying that all eastern and western philosophy has been nothing more than a “pissing contest”? Keep in mind that Buddhism, in which many 'schools' advocate meditation as the means of “enlightenment,” is a philosophy and not a religion. Therefore, by your criteria Buddhism is a “pissing contest”?

By interpreting others personal experiences according to your 'common sense' criteria you are judging the validity of those experiences Mike.

I just got down saying that I don't interpret “others personal experiences.” However, Se Gaia is a philosophical forum, we can interpret others interpretations, because….well…that's what happens in social forums.
For instance, if you say, “I just had an experience of pure blissful enlightenment” I would have nothing to say. However, if you then added, “everyone must meditate in order to experience the poor bliss of enlightenment,” now that I might take issue with (and did).

“Mike's Inquisition” would be a far more accurate title for this pod.

HA! You can call it what you will.

But this is all very simple, because actually what it comes down to is that you advocate meditation as the means/way to “eblightenment” and I completely disagree…..

….and you don't like that!

Sorry Aus!

You still da man, though!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

But this is all very simple, because actually what it comes down to is that you advocate meditation as the means/way to “enlightenment” and I completely disagree…..
 
That is an incorrect assumption Mike.  I have never said meditation is the only way to enlightenment.  Meditation seems to be a universal practice for helping people to relax and may help to get into a receptive state to experience periods of spiriual illuminationen but to suggest it is the ONLY way to enlightenment is denying the fact that the enlightened state is everyones birthright and natural state of being.

Our knowledge of truth has somehow been subdued over milliniea of religious conditioning, manipulation and dogma, so we think we are separated from each other and the Original Cause but that isn't possible. 

However “as a man thinks in his heart so is he”, so if you are conditioned to believe you are separate, that will be your experience, even though it is contrary to the truth.

Enlightenment is a realisation of the truth of being.  It is there for everyone.  How people arrive at that realisation is as individual as each life story but I'm certainly not, nor would ever put restrictions or conditions as to how people should awaken to truth.

Of course I like it,…

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

That is an incorrect assumption Mike.  I have never said meditation is the only way to enlightenment.  Meditation seems to be a universal practice for helping people to relax and may help to get into a receptive state to experience periods of spiriual illuminationen but to suggest it is the ONLY way to enlightenment is denying the fact that the enlightened state is everyones birthright and natural state of being.

Okay…sorry.

Our knowledge of truth has somehow been subdued over milliniea of religious conditioning, manipulation and dogma, so we think we are separated from each other and the Original Cause but that isn't possible.

Well stated.

Enlightenment is a realisation of the truth of being.  It is there for everyone.  How people arrive at that realisation is as individual as each life story but I'm certainly not, nor would ever put restrictions or conditions as to how people should awaken to truth.

Hmmm…but then, if truth is 'absolute,' how can it be arrived at through 'relative' means? I'm not saying it can't, I'm just questioning the logic behind that assumption. Are you are saying that the Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc, etc, etc, all have the capacity, through their respective 'relative' ideologies (which conflict with one another), to access absolute truth?

I feel that this is not likely and has never been possible.

What say you….
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike, you are well familiar with the blind men and the elephant, I am sure. Well, all religions are the blind men, touching on this or that aspect of a much larger truth, guessing wrong at other aspects, but you see, we are not only seekers, we are sought. We are connected to Source, knowing or not, and Source will not let us fall.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Nicole,

Yes very true.

However, this then begs the question: If there were NO religion(s) would we still be blind?

My guess is… NO
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Really? Why? We would still be human and limited in the same ways we are now.
Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Really? Why? We would still be human and limited in the same ways we are now

Hmmm…possibly.

However, for religions to exist, there is a need for humanity to feel weak and puny. Religion exploits the weak minded, therefore, if no religion to keep us down by promising an 'up,' maybe together we can all rise a little higher.

Just saying…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

If there were no religion, do you think that there would be nothing to “keep us down”? It seems to be part of human nature for the strong to lead the weak in various ways, whether religiously or philosophically.

And what of the ways religion lifts us up? What is the overall effect?

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

And what of the ways religion lifts us up? What is the overall effect?

Yes, it is an insidious circular dynamic of dependence. Taught that you are a “sinner,” you must now become dependent on the teacher to forgive your sins, since it was the teacher that created them.

Ha!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Is there nothing good about religion? At its best is it not about relationship, the very value you hold highest?

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Is there nothing good about religion? At its best is it not about relationship, the very value you hold highest?

Codified ideologies lose touch with relating to people and relate to the ideology above all else.

just saying…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

I'm not talking about the ideologies, but the communities.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Communities initiated under an ideological banner can only communicate through the filter of ideology which is no communion at all. Ideological communities include only those who adhere to the ideological precepts and therefore, exclude those who do not. A world community is not possibly as long as opposing ideological communities exist.

Thanks!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

You speak as though religious communities were monolithic, Mike. They are not, but are simply made up of people, real people like you and me. We are a world community, with all our different ideas or not. What is missing is more openness to each other, regardless of our ideologies.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

What is missing is more openness to each other, regardless of our ideologies.

Really? What else, besides our ideological belief systems, keeps us apart and closed off from one another?

???
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Do they, really? Is it not rather the belief they must that would impede?

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Well….I suppose we could deny that ideological belief systems impede relationships.

However, that would be difficult, since the history of the world makes it rather fundamentally self-evident.

Wouldn't you agree?
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Well, no, Mike. Since we all have ideological belief systems, and yet some of us succeed in having close relationships with other people, it stands to reason that it is not having beliefs but the types of beliefs that we have that impede relationships.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Unfortunately, “some of us” succeeding has not made much of a dent in the shape of world history and unless we can all succeed then we all may eventually fail.

But that idea is utopic and utterly ridiculous.
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

I think you underestimate humanities desire to be lead and to belong to something Mike.

Religion has exploited nearly everybody at some point, not just the weak minded, because it offers an institution that gives people a sense of family, takes responsibility for feelings of guilt and separation, makes peoples decisions for them.

As long as people are not willing to take responsibility for themselves religion will thrive.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike S. said:  “the more entertaining life is, the more its opposite, death, is accentuated?” 
 
CREATIVE people get away with bad behavior, of course—and are not much questioned by society, and in many cases, this entertaining life has, what else, entertainment value. 
 
Here we are now entertain us… 
 
Here we are with the 27 CLUB, also known as the Forever 27 Club or simply Club 27 
 
KURT COBAIN, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison’s lives were cut short at age 27, but the same fate happened to thirty other musicians.  
 
Sure, they weren't all equally famous, but every one of them pushed rock in new directions, leaving lasting legacies that continue to inspire fans and musicians. 
 
The strange thing about CREATIVE work is that it can have a huge value for others while its maker is left ravaged. 

Check out this link, look for the blog about CREATIVITY, for more ”entertainment” http://thebackseatdriver.gaia.com/blog?page=2

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Hey Lou!

Welcome.

“The strange thing about CREATIVE work is that it can have a huge value for others while its maker is left ravaged.”

Interesting point. I think this may even be apparent in other mediums, like painting, sculpture, writing, etc, etc. Of course, not all die, but many live a rather deteriorating lifestyle often marked by substance addiction and even mental illness of some kind.

It seems that to break from convention may lead to some type of break with reality if the individual is unprepared for what he/she comes upon. Maybe this is why so many fear to break from convention, since it is a loss of anchor points and a fearful free-floating into 'nothingness.'

Thanks!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Right on Mike S.

Writing, pictures, music, poems, blogs (watch out Mike S. !), and performances of all sorts are an engagement with loss… first

But here is the kink, creative people get away with bad behavior. They aren't expected to conform, so the drink, drugs, failed love affairs, crashed cars, rages and tantrums—are not much questioned by society, and in any case, have entertainment value.

When life loses all meaning, we cannot live.

Longing is painful.

Every work of art is an attempt to bring into being the object of loss. The pictures, the music, the poems and the performances are an intense engagement with loss.

While one is in the act of making, one is not in loss, and one has meaning.

But I do not believe that CREATIVITY is destructive.


I believe it is the part of us that gives shape and voice to our innermost reality.

Hurray for Gaia.com!

But, this is frightening.

Encounters with the real, in particular what we really feel, are something we generally try to avoid.

CREATIVE work allows us to get nearer to our longing and our loss, to risk more, and to dare more.

So be CREATIVE Gaians…

…be creative!

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

absolutely, Lou! May creativity reign!

Love,

Nicole

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Lou,

Every work of art is an attempt to bring into being the object of loss. The pictures, the music, the poems and the performances are an intense engagement with loss. While one is in the act of making, one is not in loss, and one has meaning.

Hmmm…interesting point. Maybe you could elucidate a bit further on this.
I do believe that the egoic self-concept is defined through lack and loss or incompletion seeking completion. This 'completion' is cause for fear, since an ego experiencing absolute completion would cease to exist since an ego is always a relative partial approximation of itself. It seems that to be complete would, in fact, be to not exist as an ego, or be dead to oneself.

When life loses all meaning, we cannot live.

That does seem to be the case. However, it may be that when life loses all egoic meaning, possibly that's when life is truly lived or experienced in full. It seems to me that authentic creativity is an attempt to break from the ego and make or create something truly non-egoic. In the “flow” of creativity the ego is sedated and squelched, since it is the purpose of the ego-self to constantly predict and prepare based on past experience. In creative moments this capacity or need to predict the future and prepare accordingly (orient to “reality) is surrenderd. People report really feeling “alive” in these moments. It could be that we feel most 'alive' when dissociated from the demands of the ego-self concept?

I believe it is the part of us that gives shape and voice to our innermost reality.

Yes. And I believe acts of creativity are so profoundly stimulating to the ego, because they are attempts to mimic God.

Encounters with the real, in particular what we really feel, are something we generally try to avoid.

Yes! No doubt of that and this is why conventional spiritual ideologies are so soothing to the ego-self that demands its existence be “real.” When in fact, the ego is nothing but a relative concept, only real when identified with, but “real” in the sense that it is obscure and vague and thus, delusional.

Good Stuff, Lou!
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Revelation is the first and the biggest step to changing your life and reviving your interest and desire.  The rest is MOP-UP.

Grab a mop.
Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zkoLgi0pR4

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

A few things- 1. This thread is entertaining,
2. There is no way of avoiding death
3. I believe I'm immortal, and so far I've been right,
Love & Light,
Mike

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Love you, Mike! laughing

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

lmao…are we having fun yet???

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

A few things-
1.  The body does not die, because you believe in death.
2.  The body exists, or seems to because you believe in death.
3.  Body and death are part of the same illusion.
4.  Body and death:  one illusion.
5.  If belief in death creates the body, why does an ANIMAL have a body?
6.  An ANIMAL doesn't have an ego, and it doesn't believe in death…
7.  But still it dies,  or seems to…
All the best,
Lou

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Hi Lou,

I am not entirely convinced an animal does not have an ego and is not aware of itself to some degree.  It may be all a matter of language barrier.  I've seen domestic animals, even wild ones, attach themselves jealously, act almost imperious, calculate devious action, compete for attention, become indignant, sulk.  Granted, all of these things are projections of behavior on the part of myself, as the observer, but each seem to follow a unique pattern, that goes beyond what is determined as instinct.  The freedom in the animal is that it does not appear to attach meaning to it all.

That the breathing structure of any given life form is not eternal is not an illusion, it is the story we devise about it that is the illusion.  The mind is a great conjurer of things.  We face Mystery at all points, and so we strive for meaning, and in that meaning comes many a story, a theory, a philosophy, a theosophy.  What we appear to know as opposed to what we merely believe, that line is very, very thin and never exact and is usually shown to be false at some point, so you start again at square one with a new and revealed set of ideas.  It's not like any given experience or pattern has not occurred, but it is our interpretation of the experience and pattern that is in question.  That the imprint of things appears to be unique is the great puzzle, I think.  Does it point to a soul? I don't know.  It might.  Does it point to a source? I don't know this either.  I should like to see it as so, but what I like and what is real, that always seems to be opposing.

Interesting, though. 

Blessings~

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

YES SIR!

”What we appear to know as opposed to what we merely believe, that line is very, very thin and never exact and is usually shown to be false at some point, so you start again at square one with a new and revealed set of ideas.”

It is said in the book of REVELATION, in the New Testament:

”Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.”        —Revelation 21:1

You are then no longer bound to this world, this level of reality.

You can still enjoy passing pleasures of this world but there's no fear of loss anymore, so you don't need to cling to them.

P.S.  Mike S. also said: ”I've seen domestic animals, even wild ones, attach themselves jealously”… you mean like this?

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Ha! Picture's hilarious.

But when did I say that, ”I've seen domestic animals, even wild ones, attach themselves jealously”

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

“I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us”

sing it now… Mike S.
…it's all beginning to smell like TEEN SPIRIT

All the best,
Lou
P.S.  It was Nahnni's quote…my mistake Mike S.

”I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us“… sing it now!

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Well, it only goes to show you that the ménage à trois is not peculiar to the French descriptive of the sensual appetite of some human beings.  Bi-sexuality exists in the animal kingdom as well.  Entertaining photograph, but what's the point?

About the animal ego, Lou, I seem to recall questioning the notion it does not exist, but rather might, in a very early discussion comment months and months ago.  I don't think my position has changed.  Your list prompted the question to rise to the surface again in my mind.  Perhaps some statements in that brief discussion intersected, I have no recollection of precise wording.

I don't quite get the connection of my statement you quote to the Book of Revelation.

Respectfully~

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Do you agree that animals do not fear death since they do not know they are living?

There are countless beings, not just animals, whose conscious frequency is so different from ours, that we are probably unaware of their existence.

Even within the human world, there are many different “sub-worlds” depending on your perception.

REVELATION 13:11 does not call the animal a lamb, the creature was a young animal, an animal that ”had two horns like a lamb“…

…may be it's a DEER ?

All the best,

Lou
P.S.  Don’t get me wrapped up into “ménage à trois” here. 
 
It has nothing to do with being gay or bi-sexual !

A ménage à trois is the French term describing a relationship or domestic arrangement in which three people, often a married couple and another lover, share a sexual relationship, although the relationship might or might not involve all three persons having sexual relations with each other.

The French phrase literally translates as ”household of three” !!!

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Your being a bit facetious. I brought up bi-sexuality not as a component of a common use idiom, but as an activity in the animal kingdom not particular to the human species. 

Yes, in my observation, animals do appear to fear death.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Today, many people are engaging in same sex relationships and saying they are not gay.

I did not vote for the anti-gay amendment or the same-sex marriage ban, and I am not a member of any supremacist militia.

We should try to fix the bigger problem… Nahnni !

We all know what that is – NO SEX STRAIGHT MARRIAGE.

I am not bi-sexual.  I am not gay.  I have never had sex with men.

My parents simply brought me up to believe that sex and sexuality are something to be proud of.

All the best, 

Lou

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Lou,

I've been trying to follow this exchange, but I've become a bit lost.

Are you saying that straight marriages that have no sex are a bigger problem than the anti-gay amendment or the same sex marriage ban?

Just looking for some clarity…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

Mike S.,

It's very simple… no-sex-straight-marriage gives rise to bi-sexuality… that's all!

Today, many people are engaging in same-sex relationships and saying they are not gay.

Do not fight against the body, for in doing so you are fighting against reality.

In the book of Genesis, it is said that Adam and Eve were not allowed to dwell in ”paradise” when they ”ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”

This sounds to me like DENIAL.

Then shame and taboos came along, and appeared around certain parts of the body and bodily functions—especially sexuality.

When religion arose, dissociation became even more pronounced.

This looks to me… more and more like … DENIAL of pleasures and of sexuality in particular.

Do not fight against the body, for in doing so you are fighting against reality.

You are either a man or a woman, which is to say one-half of the whole.

Male-female attraction—man's need for a woman, woman's need for a man is a longing for wholeness, a return to oneness.

This is why SEXUAL UNION is the most deeply satisfying experience the physical realm can offer.

Yet, the root of sexual union is a spiritual one:  the longing to return to a state of WHOLENESS.

Does being gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual make a difference?

Being gay, lesbian, or bi-sexual can actually be of help.

Being an outsider to some extent, someone who does not ”fit in” with others or is rejected by others for whatever reason, makes sexual union difficult, but it also places one at an advantage as far as ENLIGHTMENT is concerned.

If you cannot be at ease with yourself, you will seek a relationship to cover-up your unease.

You can be sure that the unease will then re-appear in some other form within the relationship, and you will probably hold your partner (man or woman) responsible for it.

Why then can't you be yourself at this point?

When you have a relationship with yourself, you have already split yourself in two:  ”I” and ”myself.”

In the state of ENLIGHTMENT, you are yourself—”you” and ”yourself” merge into one.

Just as a man and a woman is one half of the whole.

We've come full circle now…

…stay with me, on this one Mike S.!

When ”you” and ”yourself” merge into one, it becomes another form of sexual union, a spiritual one.

You do not judge yourself, you do not feel sorry for yourself, you do not hate yourself.

There is no ”self” that you need to protect, defend, or feed anymore.

When you are ENLIGHTENED, there is one relationship that you no longer have:  the relationship with yourself.

Once you have given that up, all your other relationships will be love relationships.

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

It's very simple… no-sex-straight-marriage gives rise to bi-sexuality… that's all!
Today, many people are engaging in same-sex relationships and saying they are not gay.

so does that mean you are denying bisexuality as existing?

This is why SEXUAL UNION is the most deeply satisfying experience the physical realm can offer.

No doubt, this is how many perceive it. But I feel that may be a mistaken understanding.

Yet, the root of sexual union is a spiritual one:  the longing to return to a state of WHOLENESS.

However, I feel that the union is of the mind and although sex should not be denied, it should not subordinate the unification of minds.

If you cannot be at ease with yourself, you will seek a relationship to cover-up your unease.You can be sure that the unease will then re-appear in some other form within the relationship, and you will probably hold your partner (man or woman) responsible for it.

This is accurate. Fragmented attracts fragmented and whole attracts whole. If one is fragmented then relationships will reflect that fragmentation. The fragmented ego seeks wholeness through another, which is impossible, particularly if that 'other' is also fragmented.

When ”you” and ”yourself” merge into one, it becomes another form of sexual union, a spiritual one.

At first I thought you were on the right rtack as far as the power of relationship, but now you seem to be advocating to the individual “awakening.”
Although individual “awakenings” is certainly in vogue, I feel that it results in a disengagement with others and the world. The conventional idea behind individual enlightenment seems to imply that first you attain your coveted enlightened and then you superimpose that upon others and the world. I merely posit that through, and with, others we become enlightened together and in that way the world is changed. If everyone is seen as a potential catalyst for enlightenment, what need for hate or fear?

There is no ”self” that you need to protect, defend, or feed anymore.

Yes and when you trust everyone you meet, what need for protection? Through the enlightenment first model, it could take me years to become “enlightened,” in the meantime I continue to project fear and hate into my experience of a 'world' and the world reflects that back making my search for enlightenment that much harder.

As always, I don't really 'know,' so I'm only saying…
mikeS

Re: Here We Are Now, Entertain Us!

To piss people off is not the point here…  Mike S.

The point is to get a conversation going!

“With the lights out its less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious”

Right here in Minneapolis, U.S.A…

…we already have… 
 
what is called “REPARATIVE THERAPY.”

…Gay and lesbian Roman Catholics who contact the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis for spiritual guidance find themselves directed toward programs aimed at helping them become celibate.

It’s pissing a lot of people off!

Many see the programs as an example of the Vatican's swing toward conservatism, and an insulting blow to a decade of bridge-building between the church and the gay community.

If you want to be “ENLIGHTENED” … and you are here in Minneapolis:

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, HOMOSEXUALITY AND REPARATIVE THERAPY
When: Today. Soup supper at 5 p.m., program at 6:30
Where: St. Martin's Table Restaurant and Bookstore, 2001 Riverside Av., Minneapolis
Cost: Supper is $5; program is free.

All the best,

Lou

P.S.  You won't see me there… because… (check out attached image #2)