Spiritual Illumination

Possessing the divine light within him, man gains his freedom from the world and security from all earthly or human dangers.  This period holds terrors and fears for many.  The spiritually illumined will recognise that because no good can come or go, that because spiritual activity is always of the nature of fulfillment, that because their illumination has revealed the reality of things, they are anchored in Soul, in God-consciousness, in spiritual peace, security, and serenity
 
We will fear no change in the outer picture because the outer is but the reflection of the allness within.  Safe in the realisation that we are individual though infinite spiritual consciousness embodying all good, we need give no consideration to the evidence of the senses.
 
Spiritual illumination reveals the harmony of being and dispels the evidence of material sense.  It does not change anything in the universe for this is a spiritual universe peopled with children of God, but the illumination changes our concept of the universe.
 
- Joel S Goldsmith, 'The Infinite Way'

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Yes, down the rabbit hole. Then what, when you realize the mechanics behind the game? Time to realize why it was you set up the game to begin with. To enjoy it.
Realizing your divine is only the start. Then you have to ask yourself, why would the divine place themselves here? What's the point if your ultimate self is pure, holy, joy, one and love?
It's the difference between being, and doing.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

see, both these posts are examples of conditioned beliefs…imo…no different than believing in a sky god…or the tooth fairy…or the concept of all is one…Buddha is Lord, or Christ is Son…etc…they are just a distraction from taking real responsibility and living human life on life's terms…in the real world…

and like mike says…

just saying…gol*

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Starlight - excellent observation, but any response, any conclusion, any philosophy, any belief whether based on faith or empirical evidence has to first pass through the human mind where it is filtered and accepted or rejected according to the bias resulting from prior experience, learning, environment or imbedded discrimination.

Even your response is an example of conditioned belief, and MikeS will be happy, he'll read it and think he's got a cheer squad… lol

I quoted Goldsmith because I think he has expressed most clearly the reality that the universe doesn't change, so he's not abrogating responsibility for ourselves but stating that our way of viewing the universe can change, and our experience can change along with it.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Poor Joel Goldsmith (whoever he is?).

Repeating the same old historical drivel that has been mouthed for centuries, but now given a new more modern spin.

Possessing the divine light within him, man gains his freedom from the world and security from all earthly or human dangers.

Thereby establishing an inequality between those who 'have' the “divine light” and those who 'have not.' This egoic subterfuge is very subtle, as if an individual mind could be possessed of the truth alone and separate from all others. This is called proprietary truth and if I own it, you must conform in order to receive it.

that because their illumination has revealed the reality of things, they are anchored in Soul, in God-consciousness, in spiritual peace, security, and serenity.

Yea, good for them! The rest of you can go pound sand. If you don't see it in others, it's not in you, so stop kidding your 'self.'

We will fear no change in the outer picture because the outer is but the reflection of the allness within.

There is no individual separate “within” and this is a basic misunderstanding of the concept that has been compulsively repeated for centuries, ad nauseam.

Yet, truth is all or nothing and therefore, not available to separate 'individual' minds, piecemeal, one at a time. HA! but according to the ego it is! At least, Joel Goldsmith's ego. Does Joel 'know' the truth? Beware the 'knowers'!

I quoted Goldsmith because I think he has expressed most clearly the reality that the universe doesn't change, so he's not abrogating responsibility for ourselves but stating that our way of viewing the universe can change, and our experience can change along with it.

Essentially, he is “abrogating responsibility” for if only a few are privy to “divine light” or” spiritual illumination” and the rest of us ignorant fools can just shutup and follow the leader. This is a earth-based paradigm (therefore, delusional) and If I'm not blessed by this “divine light” then clearly i need no longer concern myself with the truth and merely follow my conditioning. We're not gonna get absolute truth through the same paradigm that we construct relative truth. But that's exactly what Goldsmith advocates.
Until we are all iluminated, no one is. Therefore, lets work together for collective enlightenment and forget about all this individualized illumination gobledygoop.

But hey, I'm just saying, dude…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Good to see the rational, clear thinking, optomistic and subtle MikeS is still here.  (I was starting to think you must have a ghost writer Mike lol)

Is your observation on the presumption of some exclusive, hidden revelation which you're assuming is available to just a predestined few, or is it on the alleged possibility that something as simple as a change of attitude or approach might be all that is necessary for anyone to awaken to the realisation that we has been created in the image and likeness of the source of all that is and we dwell in a perfect universe?

Having read most of the 50 odd books attributed to Joel S Goldsmitth, I feel confident in saying that there was nothing exclusive about what he shared.  As far as he was concerned the only thing stopping people from living an enlightened existence was, to paraphrase, conditioned (dis)belief.

A simple analogy demonstrating the possibility of this and the second aspect of my question is to imagine a group of people being born into a dark cave, growing up only knowing the reality and universality of the darkness stumbling around bumping into each other, living in constant tension as a result, as being all there is.

One day one of the cavedwellers is stumbling around in the darkness and stumbles into a passage, follows it and comes into daylight. and realises immediately that he has been living an illusion that darkness was all that is and that he has been confined to the cave because everyone had been taught to believe that stumbling blindly around the cave was reality, all that there is.


He was in a quandry because he couldn't deny the freedom he was experienceing. But anyone that had travelled the passage and returned and talked of the possibility of another life lived in light was condemned as being part of an exclusive belief system and executed as a heretic by the rulers of the cavedwellers because they feared they would lose control if the stories were true and light was available to all just by following the passage to it's end

There are a number of ways I could use this analogy, but to cut to the chase even though freedom and living in the llight is freely available to all, it isn't until each of the cavedwellers individually overcomes their conditioned beliefs about the cave being all there is, the only reality, that they, by faith not having seen the light, decide to follow the passage into the light to experience the release for themselves.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Andrew. this makes so much sense to me:


 even though freedom and living in the llight is freely available to all, it isn't until each of the cavedwellers individually overcomes their conditioned beliefs about the cave being all there is, the only reality, that they, by faith not having seen the light, decide to follow the passage into the light to experience the release for themselves.


Love,


Nicole

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Yo Andy! Is that you!

Hahaa!

I was beginning to wonder, who is this guy that thinks he knows me, and then I checked your profile and, lo and behold, the eccentric Aussie himself reappears!
Next time, Aus, don't take so such a long absence.

“Is your observation on the presumption of some exclusive, hidden revelation which you're assuming is available to just a predestined few…”

Not so much an assumption as a fact, since only a few claim ownership of this revelation, enlightenment or awakening, but, of course, additionally claim that what they 'have' or 'got,' everybody can 'have or 'get.' Just work hard, struggle, sacrifice, follow these rules, scrunch your bod up in the lotus and contemplate your navel in meditative reverie and you too can achieve the 'reward.' My friend, any path that advocates an outcome or reward, no matter how spiritual or sacred, is egoic and comes directly from a 'world' that cherishes the past and the rewards others have won.

“…or is it on the alleged possibility that something as simple as a change of attitude or approach might be all that is necessary for anyone to awaken to the realisation that we has been created in the image and likeness of the source of all that is and we dwell in a perfect universe?”

Relative truth is all that the world can teach you whether you sit at the feet of the guru or read the guru's book. There is no “awakening.” At least none that “you,” or what you identify with as “you,” can bring about. Absolute truth is not available to individual minds, as that would immediately make it relative.

“…there was nothing exclusive about what he shared.  As far as he was concerned the only thing stopping people from living an enlightened existence was, to paraphrase, conditioned (dis)belief.”

Yes and don't you think “the only thing stopping people from living an enlightened existence was, to paraphrase, conditioned (dis)belief” is a conditioned belief? Seems to me this is as conventional and mainstream as they come, because it's a product of the past, passed from one truth proprietor to another in the linneage club of enlightened ones.

And yes, I am familiar with Plato's “Allegory of the Cave.” The problem with “living in the light” is that there is always the potential for sunburn. Don't come runnin' to me all blistered up and expect I'm gonna follow you into the light. This is the problem with most “lightworkers.” In order to love the pretty concepts they convey, we have to deny their bad sunburn.

Being fair skinned, I always use sunblock….
mikeS

By the way, great to hve ya back bro!

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Andrew, I can respectfully assure you that I am no ones cheer squad…and Mike will definitely attest to that as well as he and I have gone round and round on several issues…

While everything is filtered through our magnificent brains…when you have done the inner work that I have, and questioned beliefs and bias, made inquiry into the way the brain works and what role experience and memory play, questioned in depth conceptual thinking verses real life experience, then you can honestly look at reality without it's delluded overcast to a great degree…

I am awake to my own humanity…and to my own responsibilites in regards to being a human…I have no illusions in this…but I am also aware that this human awakening is an on going process…one which requires rigorous self-honesty…

I do tend to agree with Mike on many things however, and one that he has helped me to understand, is that once I was able to do my own inner work…iow, get honest with me by questioning my own beliefs and why I believed them…via causing me to awaken to my own humanity…then I have to take that and engage fully in this human dance…which awakens me at even deeper levels…

It's a journey…my path is my very path of human awakening…which includes all I continue to come in contact with…minus all the bullshit illusions I have concerning it…well, bullshit is ok and sometimes very funny…as long as it is known for what it is…but it is the honest innerconnectedness of being that is real…and the experiencing of that…whether I judge it to be negative or positive…while I might prefer to have that connection with nature verses the idiots I come in contact with on a regular basis, I am learning to communicate on deeper levels than ever…and to remember that I have and can still be an idiot…at even the deepest of levels…LOL*

sincerely, Star…

btw…i did not quote any conditioned beliefs…this is what i said…


they are just a distraction from taking real responsibility and living human life on life's terms…in the real world…



and i guarantee you that it is from 'life' experience…real life…not something dreamed up in my down time…to make me look 'all that'…gol*

Re: Spiritual Illumination

on second thought…I am a cheer squad…for those that do not have a voice in this world…I dedicate all my poems to them…but for Mike???  his voice is quiet loud enough without me having to cheer him on (and I respect that about him)…but I do cheer his intentions in encouraging us to fully engage our humanness…*

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Hi Starlight

I meant no offense, MikeS and I go back a long way and I hold him in the highest esteem, but don't tell him that cos I'll deny it… lol

What I write is the result of personal experience.  It is clear that you know arguing one 'concept' against another is fruitless though sometimes I will use a concept in the hope of stimulating someone to think 'outside the box'.

We cannot demonstrate anything but 'conditioned beliefs' in this sense universe.

If I know 'truth' unless I find a way of bypassing the filter of my mind to put the essence of what I know into a communicable form and then bypass the filter of your mind, so that it doesn't try to 'interpret' what I've communicated on the basis of past experience and conditioned belief, whatever you percieve as what I've said will be a distortion of the original truth.

Of course this applies to anything.  My personal guide to whether there is an element of truth in something is the 'still small voice' that says “of course - I've always known that”.  It is not an audible voice as such but an impression deep down in my awareness. I know that I know.

If I read or hear something without the 'witness' of the 'still small voice' then I recognise it as a concept.

As you will see if you read my profile, I believe what is is.

Peace.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Dude!!!!!

Are you hearing voices???

That's called “schizophrenia” and they have meds for that.

Peace Aus,
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I'm a Gemini, what would you expect?

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Cheers from another Gemini :)

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Fascinating! I would like to read more, dear Andrew,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I have to admit Mike that I missed your earthy confronting thoroughly logical academic breakdown of whatever it was you disagreed with, which, as I recollect, was just about everything.

On this issue though you remind me of Groucho Marx when he said that he could never belong to a club that would accept him as a member.

Using the cave analogy again you seem to expect that divine intervention should just turn on the lights so that everyone is enlightened, equally and simultaneously, but that would still limit their vision and experience to the confines of the cave.

BTW I've never seen Plato's cave analogy

But all this is mind games.

The real illumination, awakening or enlighenment in my humble conditioned belief opinion must reveal itself from within, and come more naturally than breathing.  Which leads me to suspect that we have all at some point in the past chosen to step into the darkness or ignorance of the sense realm leading us to think that all there is is what we can experience through the senses.

We've cut ourselves off from our 'supernatural' natural state of spiritual illumination, burying the possibility of such a state existing under generations of self serving disbelief and illusion.

Enlightenment is closer to each one of us than breathing, nearer than hands and feet.  It's not something you do, it's something you are.

So there….

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I have to admit Mike that I missed your earthy confronting thoroughly logical academic breakdown of whatever it was you disagreed with, which, as I recollect, was just about everything.

Well, hey Aus, I missed you too!
However, I don't look at it necessarily as “disagreement” just digging deeper than most are willing to go. It is pleasurable to stop at a certain point and simply claim this is “the truth” and hope everyone agrees. Yet, it is true that those who wish to go further are not held in high esteem by the 'truth knowers.'
I have come to recognize how important agreement is here in Oz and most pods, with a few exceptions, are nothing but a conflagration of everybody agreeing with one another. Nice friendly groups, all light and love. Nothing wrong with that, just not my cup of tea.

On this issue though you remind me of Groucho Marx when he said that he could never belong to a club that would accept him as a member.

Ha! Which is why I started my own club.
But everyone is welcome and I look forward to disagreement (read some of the past threads and you will see that disagreeing with me is generally par the course). Actually, Aus, I did completely agree with your assessment of the current U.S. administration in a previous thread, but I imagine this discussion is closer to your heart (since you read all the guys books) and disagreement might be more of a stinging blow.

Using the cave analogy again you seem to expect that divine intervention should just turn on the lights so that everyone is enlightened, equally and simultaneously, but that would still limit their vision and experience to the confines of the cave.

I'm not sure we can continue to utilize the cave allegory, since it is rather constrained to material or physical reality. “Awakening” has always been conceptualized as beyond time/space, at least historically through the ancient wisdom traditions.

The real illumination, awakening or enlighenment in my humble conditioned belief opinion must reveal itself from within, and come more naturally than breathing.

Well now. lookee here, Aus. I think we might actually agree on this point. However, the operational term is “within” and it seems that need be defined first. Most definitions assume a 'space' within individual minds, such as the space between thoughts. But I posit (as do a few other brighter minds) that it is the 'space' between minds and individuals can only access this space with other individuals, joined together in that endeavor. The ego cannot transcend itself as this is impossible. However, the ego can deeply engage with other egos and transform itself, even annhiliate itself, through the unification with other egos. “When the two shall become one” as somebody famous once advocated.

Yes, “Enlightenment is closer to each one of us.” Just look to the one next to you. It's not something “you” are because “you” don't exist.

However, we certainly do!
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I'm (seriously) glad you haven't gone on the defensive Mike, not that for a moment did I think you would, otherwise I wouldn't have posted in this pod.

This is the only place I've engaged but discovered by accident that already I've been blocked by some of Gaia's 'illuninati', while trying to find the profiles of people I'd befriended in my last incarnation on Gaia.  I'd forgotten about all that crap, there are so many other amazing things to consider, but it seems some are still blinded by the curse of unforgiveness.

At least I'm confident I can get my teeth into something in your pod without being ostracised again.

BTW the “within” I'm referring to is spirit or the life force that animates every living thing, that we have all have access to the 'source of all that is' simply by allowing that withinness to manifest in our consiousness rather than constantly burying it under the dung heap of unbelief and religious preconception.  I include atheism as a religion in this regard.

It is equally available to everyone.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Disagreeable yes, defensive no.

Yes, I do vaguely recall the brouhaha you were involved with previously. You are welcome to engage in the extreme here.
In fact, a few of my thread starters were so over the top that people joined the pod merely to roast me on the coals. In some cases I admit, I deserved what I received and asked for (pity that we haven't hear from them since).
“Gaia's Illuminati” Ha! I have been referring to them as the wizard's of oz.

BTW the “within” I'm referring to is spirit or the life force that animates every living thing, that we have all have access to the 'source of all that is' simply by allowing that withinness to manifest in our consiousness rather than constantly burying it under the dung heap of unbelief and religious preconception.  I include atheism as a religion in this regard. It is equally available to everyone.

Sounds good. However, in terms of the access, I would only contend that although it is equally available to everyone, until everyone avails themselves of it, it is unavailable to all.

 If this “spirit of life force” is truth, then truth cannot be apprehended by some and not others, since this would negate it as truth. a “truth” known by only the few, cannot be true. Absolute truth is a totality and a completion and until it is completely known by all in totality, it remains incomplete and partial which, of course, is not in any way truth. No?

So how to deal with these devout ones who claim knowledge of truth? Well I think we do recognize what is NOT true (which covers just about everything apprehended by the senses) and therefore, these folks deeply intuit what is false, but have yet to completely and totally avail themselves of what is true.

But as always and forever, I'm just saying…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

“truth” known by only the few, cannot be true.

Pardon?

Surely truth is truth, whether anyone is aware of it or knows it or believes it or not.  Ignorance of truth or failing to recognise truth as truth doesn't change the nature or the legitamacy of truth does it?

I'm not looking for an argument just trying to get a handle on what you are talking about.

Something else I noticed when I discovered I'd been discommunicated and cast into outer darkness by some of Gaias most loving and caring is the ambassadors pod appears to have gone 'underground'.  Has it now become an elitist 'secret society'?  Even the link to find an ambassador has disappeared.

I mention that here because it's clear you created 'Fully Engaged' to help Gaians rise to a greater level of awareness through self examination and critical contemplation of what we've all accepted as fact, progressively coming into the light of a better understanding breaking the bonds of useless dogma to recognise truth, demonstrate love and experience life in its fullness and help others to do the same.

The illuminati is apparently heading in the opposite direction.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Hi Andrew,

Yes, truth is what it is, regardless of who embraces it. Indeed. Now, we have only access to relative truths, but they are meaningful nonetheless.

I found this link about Ambassadors on the main members' page: Ambassadors


The ambassadors pod is still there Gaia Ambassadors


Besides 
A Surprise Party for Matthew!and 
We are saying bye to Eli one of our Ambassadorsit has been pretty much dead for quite some time. Ambassadors continue to do their Ambassador thing apparently without the need for a specific pod for it :) We flit all over Gaia, the discussions and blogs, welcoming new members, meeting people in person and by teleconference in the Gaia Minute etc.

It is interesting what you say about the illuminati. It has been a challenging year for Gaia in many ways, and many have left to play at Facebook, though I notice more and more of them returning lately. 

Most of those of us who have been considered informal site leaders have been together in the Gaia minute initiative weekly, so that is interesting. We had quite a philosophical struggle recently within the leadership of One Life Many Windows but have agreed to go on as is. I am content to have gained a deeper understanding lately of the site and some of its most active members.

Love,

Nicole 

Re: Spiritual Illumination

“One Life Many Windows”?

Yes, I've perused some of those threads.

The discussions are very 'appropriate.'

Love and light!!!
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Ha! That was an interesting slip on my part. I should have said One Light Many Windows. 

We haven't really had stress over different beliefs. More different approaches to moderation.

Mike, relative truth is all we have. So we do our best. Sure it is challenging. But that makes it fun

Love,

Nicole

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Mike, relative truth is all we have.

Ooh!….maybe that's a problem…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I stand corrected Nicole, the amb. pod is clearly still there if you know how to find it, but I couldn't find the link you referred to. 

In my last incarnation there was a link to a gallery of ambassadors avatars on the right hand side of the members profile page.

It is disappointing that there has been contention over 'One Light Many Windows'.  When I first suggested the concept to Eli it was in a form that would highlight the similarities between the sacred religious scriptures of the world to demonstrate how closely related they all are.

Once you start to debate organisational dogma and interpretation of the intent and meaning of the scriptures you will never find a solid basis on which agreement and harmony can be established between religions.  The best you can hope for is a truce involving uneasy compromise.

I believe my original concept which compared the scriptures alone and removing the 'necessity' of interpretation, would have helped everyone to realise just how similar the foundational principles are in the various religions of the world and therefore demonstrate how dogma had intentionally been introduced to cause division rather than unity.

It was my hope that coming to this understanding would introduce an atmosphere of peace.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Yes, truth is what it is, regardless of who embraces it. Indeed. Now, we have only access to relative truths, but they are meaningful nonetheless.

Reeeaaaally??

How can what is relative to 6 billion separate minds be in any way meaningful? or is there a standard which, when applied, determines which “truths” are meaningful and which are not? Or is this just another means of compromising with delusional illusion so that we can maintain our comfort zones?

Just wondering….
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Surely truth is truth, whether anyone is aware of it or knows it or believes it or not.  Ignorance of truth or failing to recognise truth as truth doesn't change the nature or the legitamacy of truth does it?

Truth available to only a few is, therefore, relative to the few who claim to know it and is thus, relative truth. This seems a no-brainer to me. This is the basic fallacy of the truth-teachers who teach relative truth. If you want relative truth than learn from them.
In addition, if truth is unknown by anyone, how can it be true, since truth must be universal to all minds for it to be true. This premise that we avoid, deny, or remain ignorant is rather silly, but if one believes that their relative truth is absolute, than it's easy to see how that would be taught and has been taught for centuries.
Therefore, you must ask yourself the Ronald Reagan question: “are you any better off than you were before” Or, more specifically, is the world any better off now that we have learned the truth they teach?

Nope….
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

truth is lived…in the moment…not written down within the limits of the words used to write it…although, many truths can be found within the written word…

what is true today might not be true tomorrow…

what is truth for you, might not be truth for me…

and yet, you and i might agree on some things we find true…

LOL…*

Re: Spiritual Illumination

starlight,

truth is lived…in the moment…not written down within the limits of the words used to write it…although, many truths can be found within the written word…

Seems likely.

However, we have a million yrs of ancient wisdom traditions informing us that we can all access one absolute truth (oneness?) that is inherent to everyone. An absolute truth that is as true today as it was yesterday and that is as true for me as it is for you.

Are we saying that a millions yrs of ancient wisdom tradition is bunk????

I'm quite okay with that, if that's what we're saying….because actually we don't really have a million yrs of ancient wisdom tradition, but a million relative interpretations of the ancient wisdom traditions.

However, I would only suggest that any 'truth' ascertained by the senses must be based on the past and therefore how can it be truth. The ego realizes that of itself it can never access the absolute truth, which is really the only truth there is. Therefore, it comes up with a quazillion relative 'facts' and calls them all 'truth(s).'

Is there really such a thing as “truth(s),” or do we just think there is such a thing?
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Mike, that is only one interpretation of the written word…and it is one that i do not share as well…

You can also look at the scriptures as debunking the absolute truths that it seems to teach…

it is almost like reading a grocery list that has been torn into pieces…you found the pieces with sugar and flour on them…but the others got lost on the way to the store…while you may have done your absolute best and got what you could, you would have to go back and find the other pieces before you could possibly get everything…and now that is impossible b/c the wind blew them all over the place…

why does any truth ascertained by the senses have to be based on the past?  why can it not include the past but not be stuck with the labels or solidity of it?

my ego wakes me up every day…and accesses all sorts of truth…beauty, pain, love, anger, and the knowledge that truth is infinite and that there are no absolute truths in a changing world…except the absolute truth of change…

Re: Spiritual Illumination

starlight,

why does any truth ascertained by the senses have to be based on the past?  why can it not include the past but not be stuck with the labels or solidity of it?

Not sure of the answer to that one, but more often than not, getting “stuck” seems to be the case (collectively speaking, that is).

my ego wakes me up every day…and accesses all sorts of truth…beauty, pain, love, anger, and the knowledge that truth is infinite and that there are no absolute truths in a changing world…except the absolute truth of change…

Yes, essentially I do believe that we come to the conclusion that, all that you speak of, is part of it and, by coming to that conclusion, we give up the need to control it and let it be whatever it is at the moment of it's being.

But then something else comes into play, behind the “beauty, pain, love and anger,” that has no basis in what is seen or experienced through the senses, because the senses are based on the labels. This is the one truth that seems to change what all that “beauty, pain love and anger” means and they never seem to mean the same again, but they continue to appear all the same.

Just saying, though…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Hey Mike…can you not at least be open to the possibility that we could include the past yet not be stuck by it's labeled meaning?  iow, allow the knowledge to flow…instead of packaging it in boxes for processing as knowledge  guaranteeing that we repeat it's travesties?  if we did not hold it in such absolutes, freezing it all, then it could move more freely into the present…or even into the future…b/c what is present is past by the time our senses process it anyways…so the real aliveness is on the edge of time…

i don't really think it is 'something else' in the sense that it is separate…(where you speak of something beneath that is operating outside of our judgments of beauty, anger, etc…

it is just when our focus is on beauty or pain, or love or anger or whatever, we loose sight of the infinite realm of our own essence or awareness…or whatever you want to call it…i like the magic of the real…or joy of being…my true nature…

but it is never a static one truth…it is always alive and creating and recreating itself…so that yes, they might never appear to mean the same again, but they continute to appear all the same…(bet u didn't think i could understand that did ya?…lol)

you said the senses were based on the labels…not if you open those labels up…understand what i am pointing to???

*

Re: Spiritual Illumination

starlight,

you said the senses were based on the labels…not if you open those labels up…understand what i am pointing to???

Seems highly likely. This is what's called the philosophy of phenomenology in which we attempt to perceive objects devoid of their conceptual meanings. In fact, last yr there was a woman in the God Pod who was getting a graduate degree in that (hmmm…seems a little contradictory to be getting a degree in avoiding meanings).

Many claim that there is an ultimate absolute truth that is foundation of all relativity. However, to get to that absolute we require the use of relativity in order to arduously make are way to that foundation. Thus, the question is how can you use relative truths, of what is different for each mind that thinks it, to find what is the same for each mind.

but it is never a static one truth…it is always alive and creating and recreating itself…so that yes, they might never appear to mean the same again, but they continute to appear all the same…(bet u didn't think i could understand that did ya?…lol)

Actually this gets at it all quite well. I have brought up the idea that there is no static or proprietary truth and that absolute truth need be created collectively.
However, this idea doesn't get much traction in the century of the ego. So many out there individually chasing something that can only be found together because we create it together. The Collective Buddha

This 'mutual awakening' was, in fact, the premise behind the starting of this pod.

Good points indeed!
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Truth available to only a few is, therefore, relative to the few who claim to know it and is thus, relative truth. This seems a no-brainer to me. This is the basic fallacy of the truth-teachers who teach relative truth. If you want relative truth than learn from them

Wrong.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Truth must be absolute, otherwise it isn't truth, it is a concept, which may be correct in some situations and not correct in others.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Truth must be absolute, otherwise it isn't truth, it is a concept, which may be correct in some situations and not correct in others.

Exactly. If only a few claim to 'know' it, then it is relative and not absolute. So therefore, everything taught is relative, no matter how wise it may sound to the ego mind. Absolute truth has yet to be discovered (or created). This means every book that you've ever read which purports to teach absolute truth is merely more of the same relativity. So fuhgetabot it. It's all worthless because it's all relative. Trash it all as useless.

Yo, Aus! Isn't agreement grand???
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I knew you'd stumble out of the darkness and into the light eventually Mike.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

truth must be absolute or it isn't truth?  bullshit…

i can think of all kinds of truths that are not concepts and not absolutes…

Re: Spiritual Illumination

You're not one to beat around the bush are you Starlight?

I like that, people know exactly where they stand with you.

Truth must be absolute in the sense that it never alters, it always 'is'

Just about any aspect of the sensual realm, the world as it is observed through the 5 senses is temporal and subject to change.  So something that may be a fact today could be gone tomorrow.

As I understand it that is the difference between 'absolute' truth; and a 'temporary' truth which may be true at a particular point in time but which is subject to change and therefore could be described as fact, but not 'absolute'.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Regarding the “Truth”.

“The Truth, with reference to the purpose of human life on Earth, is like a pyramidal mountain. As we seek the truth we climb this mountain on all sides, on varying paths, with each path suiting our individual needs and this is not an easy trek because we are wearing lead soled boots and heavy clothing acquired in the past that we will gradually shed as we ascend. This trek is like one we would encounter in a tropical jungle which is full of clinging vines, protruding roots, is sometimes slippery underfoot, and has gullies and cliffs we can fall down, as well as beautiful birds, flowers and scenery. Often we have to hack our way through obstacles, toil up and down slopes and may suffer cuts, sprains, bruises and broken bones. At times we may have to stop to rest or we may feel like giving up.
 Along the way there are many springs for us to quench our thirst for knowledge and all are from the same source within the mountain. As we climb we experience the Truth from our peculiar standpoint at the time. However, since there can be only one ultimate truth, when we reach the top we all come to the same pinnacle of knowledge and state of being.
Another analogy of the Truth is that of a multifaceted diamond. Imagine one hanging in the middle of a group of people. Each person has a different perspective depending on such things as light intensity, angle of reflection, the height of the person, their distance from the diamond and so on. If they choose to move around they will encounter varying aspects of the stone as well as varying aspects of the light. Yet, the stone and the light essentially are unchanged.”
:-)
()

PS. Here is a link to a bit more.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I'm sorry Ian but I think the author is missing the point completely, in every respect.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

No need to be sorry, Andrew, every one is entitled to their own opinion.That extract is how I “see” (neopt) it. I have said that no one should accept what I say without critical analysis and a few more things regarding freedom of perception etc. Even the Buddha said words to the effect that his statements should not be accepted until they were experienced and thus tested.
:-)

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Truth is better felt than telt.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

There is no doubt that the ultimate enlightenment on any point comes from the Truth that lies within each one of us as a “birthright” and thus from “within”, but it is paradoxical that very often what is “telt” :-) acts as a trigger, the catalyst, without which that particular awareness would not have surfaced at that time. I say “at that time” because its surfacing at some “time” is inevitable.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Oh yes Ian we are in full agreement there.

I think it's important not to set 'conditions' on how a person can awaken or realise truth any more than you can set conditions on how they learn self awareness.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

If I dive into my belly button where do I go?
Maybe Douglas Adams had it right, and the universe isn't supposed to make sense, only string us along long enough to keep us moving and then sucker punch us for it's own grand amusement. Revealing nothing makes sense, but leave a clue that suggests there MIGHT be some sense over there if  we just keep looking, and off we go! (Oh but wouldn't our lives be rather mundane to outside observers? Still inwardly, it's as intresting as it gets cause we're stuck too it!)
So would ultimate truth be, being able to walk inside the skin of every entity that exsists and is aware and can observe? Cause that's what I'm hearing you say Mike. Then what criteria are we listing observation, because certainly, animals and bugs and fish, and all manner of plants, are as much creating ultimate truth, and we need to get all up in their head-izzles. They are responsable for reality outside of us as well, hell so is the weather.
I need to see it all, as if it was all part of me. Oh.. wait, nope, my bad, that's the whole, everything is One drivel again, my bad.
We might not be an island, but damn wouldn't I like to find a sensory deprivation chamber, I'd like to know what wanders up in that head of mine with out distraction. Ultimately, isn't that what medatation is? Forced sensory deprivation? Wouldn't that ol' ego go nuts with out any outside distractions to cling to. Poof, there goes relativity. Poof, there goes time. Just me and what data my brain's been storing since it first started storing.
Then there's that tricky new idea that DNA holds memory. Could you imagine actually having acess to all our ancestors' knowledge up until the time they conceived your ancestors? Is that time delayed engagement?  False engagement? Of course it's all speculation anyway.
Truth be told, engagement provides a nice way to pass the time between living and dieing, but it's ultimate reality, still has to be decided by you. Relatively speaking, you can't be me and I can't be you. (Until some one works out memory uploads, body swapping, or communal brain functions[imagine a digital internet that links minds to minds] then what?) Is the memory of your life you, or is the observer, that exsists solely in the eternal moment you? By the eternal moment, I mean of course that one point where we can and do effect the world. No one can, as of yet, access either the future or the past physically, they are just concepts.
So were does this leave me, you, and everything that is not us? For me, reality is the great canvas which the powerful tool of our imagination creates upon. It's the nothing from which something springs, under the grand power of my desire. Where do your words live before you write them? Where does a song exsist before it is composed? What plane of reality holds a play before it is acted out?
The point of my life, for me, is to define who and what I want to be. The role of everything else is to help provide the defintion by not being those things.
We can play the Schrödinger's cat game all day. It's intresting for a bit, it passes the time between born and death. With out you, certain aspects of me would not exsist, the discussion on this pod for example, but, would I cease to exsist? Certainly the me that has related to you in any fashion.
The assurtation of course is the idea that the physical is all we are, and so that reality is “truth”, and there fore we are diluding ourselves if we look outside that. Dive deep enough into physicality though, and it stops being physical. Particals, waves, fields of random probablity. The physical is filled with more nothing than something, and science hasn't even finished breaking things down yet. What if they find there's nothing at all? What if it's just all motion? Energy?
Thinking about physicality logically, if our observation is the eminence of our reality, and the things we “interact with” are so much data, placeholders, interpreted by the observer, and following the rules of that data our conciousness obeys certain guidelines that don't “really” exsist, but to enjoy the  benefit of the reality it chooses to experience, it follows them anyway. Well then, physicallity is bunk.
For example. If you remeber basic geometry, an ultimate point is something that is defined as not physical. It is a concept, on a cartesian graph. For the sake of this thought experiment, lets make it a 3d graph, with x,y, and z axis(es?). We'll say the point is at 1,1,1. To truely be at that EXACT location it can't have physical form because as soon as it does, in any way we can grasp physically, it would spill out into other points beyond that like 1.00001,1.00002,1.0000001. If we want to make the point two dimensional we have to have it exsist in more than one place at a time, or have more than one point. Now you add time into the equation, because if you move the point from say, 1,1,1 to 2,2,2 super fast, to a perception with relative time dialation (meaning some one who can't see super fast things) it would look like the point had now become a line in three dimensions. That's why time is important, to provide dimensionality to imaginary points. If you have a point move in a circle upon the graph, super fast, it would appear to BE a solid circle. If you moved it super fast so it would appear to take up all places in a spherical pattern it would be a sphere. If you make it super duper-dy small, you've got the building blocks for matter.
Nothing touches, gravity (one of observation's checkpoints?) repells two atoms away from each other before they ever touch. The body just reports touching through energy. The cartesian points that make up physicality projecting their data and our observation follows the instructions, to allow definition and physicality.
I just easily unmade the physical universe, and put it's creation back into the lap of the ultimate observer, the only thing in your universe that ever has and ever will truely exsist. You. You that observes and records. You that defines itself by deciding what is you and what isn't you. You're belief is far stronger than the physical.
You can say the truth is what you can quantify, but I think there's nothing out there TO quantify, it's all made up of great empty space, and even less than that. Inter relation is a form of a vast self exploration. The exploration of an imagination so vast and all encompassing, but we do not believe we are. And why? Cause that would ruin the fun!
The perspective changing everything, and nothing at all. Like I said, you can figure it all out, but like the atom, forever spinning in a circle so that it can appear to be a solid sphere, it's just us chasing our tails.
So to sum up, I think everyone and everything is right. There's nothing that is NOT true. For as long as you believe it, it's true, and when you stop it's not true. The men who lived believing the world was flat might not have been right, but to them it was true. Tomorrow we might find the world was never a sphere. Next week we might find out the sky was always red, and was NEVER blue. If you believe it, that's what it is.
Let's try a more extreme example. Say perhaps a man lost his hand. We'll say he's considered crazy because he thinks he still DOES have a hand, even though you can see he doesn't. You ask him to pick up a cup with that hand, and he can't, but believes it's not a flaw of his hand that doesn't allow him  acess to the cup, but to the cup itself, or some other reality. Are you right with what you see and know, or is he right with what he sees and knows? Is there a difference?
I remeber a story Jerry Clower was telling about a bus that was rushing through town and caused some trouble. In the court case later, a lawyer was trying to discredit an older gentleman's testimony based upon the fact that his eye sight was bad. When the lawyer asked the old man how far he could see, the man replied. “I can see the moon. How far is that?”

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Padric,

So would ultimate truth be, being able to walk inside the skin of every entity that exsists and is aware and can observe? Cause that's what I'm hearing you say Mike. Then what criteria are we listing observation, because certainly, animals and bugs and fish, and all manner of plants, are as much creating ultimate truth, and we need to get all up in their head-izzles. They are responsable for reality outside of us as well, hell so is the weather.

Nature's easy like Sunday morning. In fact, often, when we have enough of people, we run off to nature for peace. Nope, it's other people we fear more than anything else (which, of course, makes us fear our self because we too are one of them). It's become so easy to partition humanity as not a part of nature. We generally disgust one another because of what we do, not only to nature, but to each other. It seems that for many, nature is the epitome of innocence, while we are as guilty as sin.
Nature has no “skin” to get inside. Nature's an open book honestly exposing all. Nature has no 'self' to protect. Understanding nature is easy, it's each other that we fear. How will we “see everything as one” as long as we fear each other?

Truth be told, engagement provides a nice way to pass the time between living and dieing, but it's ultimate reality, still has to be decided by you. Relatively speaking, you can't be me and I can't be you. (Until some one works out memory uploads, body swapping, or communal brain functions[imagine a digital internet that links minds to minds] then what?)

Possibly, but I'm not sure who's truth your telling, since it's not mine. However, is there ever really a “you” separate from “me”? Seems that way, though.
There is no “you,” nor is there a “me” that determines “ultimate reality.” Since these are 3 separate aspects of one unified experience. In that sense, “I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.”

I just easily unmade the physical universe, and put it's creation back into the lap of the ultimate observer, the only thing in your universe that ever has and ever will truely exsist. You. You that observes and records. You that defines itself by deciding what is you and what isn't you. You're belief is far stronger than the physical.

Padric, no disrespect intended, but I feel this belief has resulted in centuries of man's inhumanity to man and the destruction of his home. There is no separate, divided observer. Like the flat earth theory, this is the myth that now need be debunked. The new final frontier is not the space between thoughts, but the space between minds. Go there and awaken together.

Thanks! Good Stuff!
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Hi mikeS and others who may be interested.
Copying this here saves me writing it all over again:

The Illusion - 2.
Everything is impermanent. Everything is in a state of flux. The entire biosphere is in motion in a cyclical state of matter being broken down and re-constituted from one form to another. All matter - energy - is in a state of flux ……… the whole universe of matter.
Everything we can see, feel and possess is in a state of flux, of motion, and is transient - even our thoughts. Our mind creates, and can be observed by us creating; creating thoughts of pleasure, pain, sadness and joy, fear and anticipation and, as we observe thoughts being created, we can still the creation, and, therefore, the world it creates. The world is of the mind and is impermanent - even our bodies are in a constant state of flux, of constant destruction and re-creation. Even the soul, the self, is in a state of constant change, evolving through experience and choices. The only unchanging aspect is the Light itself, the absolute being, that which is timeless, always was and always will be, that which simply IS. This absolute self is of the Creative Forces, it is like a water droplet touched to a vast drop, it merges completely yet retains its identity. That is our true state of being.
Thus, all is a creation only of the mind - an illusion, and we must enjoy all aspects of this illusion, whether they appear to be good or bad, as it presents itself; with joy because it is through this that we evolve; through meditation and applying the right principles; through the realisation of our true identity and, thereby, to at-oneness with the Creative Forces - the Great Spirit ………. The beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega, and we are unaffected by what appears to be.”

Note regarding the Illusion.
 To misunderstand this may lead to delusion. The unwise, or those whose conscience is subdued or subjugated by worldly desires, may easily assume that, because nothing in the phenomenal world is real, they may freely, with impunity, put a knife into another, wage war, steal, rape, and harm others in the many ways possible, and in other ways eschew love in all its manifestations. However,” thoughts are things” as the Cayce Readings say. Thought is a force, energy, a field, as evidenced by experiments conducted by Russian scientist in the early half of the twentieth century. It 'travels' instantaneously31and is not impeded by distance or any known substance.
In this context, the saying “It is the thought that counts” is absolutely true because, as has been stated before, action is created by thought (except where it comes from instinct) and it is the thought that counts, and it is thought that attracts karma, negative or positive as the case may be.
It is understandable that the illusion is difficult to comprehend and the following may go some way to helping in this regard. If we are shown a green leaf and asked what its colour is, we will reply that it is green. However, it is not green. It only appears to be green because it absorbs all but that part of the light spectrum that makes green, and that is the part that is reflected to our eyes. A beautiful butterfly wing is not beautiful at all; it only looks that way because the tiny scales on the wings are angled in different ways to create different colours. Likewise, materials we take to be solid are not solid - glass flows slowly in response to gravity, the hardest diamond has space between its atoms and molecules; and energy particles are passing right through all seemingly solid bodies, including our own. Nothing is as it appears.
A parallel similarity to the illusion, and the way in which it manifests, is our current activity of creating Virtual Reality. In doing this we are using thought to create a perceived reality, an illusion, through the medium of technology.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Ian,

Excellent metaphysical rendition.

To misunderstand this may lead to delusion. The unwise, or those whose conscience is subdued or subjugated by worldly desires, may easily assume that, because nothing in the phenomenal world is real, they may freely, with impunity, put a knife into another, wage war, steal, rape, and harm others in the many ways possible, and in other ways eschew love in all its manifestations.

It seems to me that in truly and deeply apprehending the nature of the illusion would result in recognizing that there can be no death. Thus, putting a knife into another is a useless endeavor in an illusional world in which 'death' is as much an illusion as 'life.'

As I see it, the concept of “illusion” tends to result in a disengagement or withdrawal from the world, because if all is UNreal, what need to engage it?

Therefore, what we withdraw from is other people, because they too are illusional objects of consciousness. The error in this perspective is that the objects of consciousness perceived as people are nothing more than aspects of the illusional 'self' and instead of withdrawal or disengagement we must deeply join with them in order to realize the nature of the illusional 'self.' Realizing the nature of the self leads to realizing the nature of the illusion, since it emanates and emerges directly from the illusion of 'self.'

just saying, though…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

yes everything is impermanent- one could say that it is our impermanence that creates the need to spawn philosophies/religions that posit permanence.  


yes we can become as this “Creative Force” - one could say that this becoming is our birthright; that is this creative force is life, and as holographic slices of life this creative force is part of us.


no we cannot say that this creative force is absolute.  we can say that when we experience said awareness, that it feels absolute.  however, since our lives are impermanent, we cannot absolutely know anything, including that any absolute is permanent ;)

Re: Spiritual Illumination

On the other hand neverness, we cannot absolutely know that we cannot absolutely know anything therefore we can say this creative force is absolute.

Our perception doesn't change the nature of anything, what is is.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

On the other hand neverness, we cannot absolutely know that we cannot absolutely know anything therefore we can say this creative force is absolute.


…..sure we can say this creative force is absolute, but we still dont know for sure that it is.  for me the primary problem of spiritualities is the need for surety/absolutes.  it seems to me the ability of being okay with notknowing is a foundational spiritual trait

Re: Spiritual Illumination

 it seems to me the ability of being okay with notknowing is a foundational spiritual trait
 
Neverness what do you mean when you use the term 'foundational spiritual trait'? 

It sounds like an absolute definition in itself.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

foundational as in a primary spiritual trait

Re: Spiritual Illumination

living human is a foundational primary spiritual trait…*

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Neverness

If someone is okay with not knowing, 'spiritual' by your definition, what would cause them to seek in the first place?

Or, doesn't this imply that being okay with not knowing, not seeking in the first place, means that that person is 'spiritual'?

Re: Spiritual Illumination

it seems to me the ability of being okay with notknowing is a foundational spiritual trait

I can roll with that. What exactly are you having trouble with Unca Andy?

Can you admit you know absolutely nothing. Sure you know alot, but can you commit to the idea that everything you know has NO value?
It seems logical to me that to 'know' the absolute, you would need to absolutely give up the belief that you know anything whatsoever and being “okay” with that fact is, of course, the operative term.

I sense you would not be okay with that and take great value in the things you 'know.'

Of course, I don't know and I'm only saying…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I would not be telling the truth if I said I know absolutely nothing.

That would be saying I have no memory through which my mind has to interpret my experience to underrstand stuff which of cause is rubbish.

Every experience I've ever had has influenced my perception of any experience following.

Which will always be a barrier to grasping spiritual truth if the spiritual realm and the sensual realm are mutually exclusive.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I would not be telling the truth if I said I know absolutely nothing. That would be saying I have no memory through which my mind has to interpret my experience to underrstand stuff which of cause is rubbish.

Certainly.

However, It may not be what you know as much as the value you apply to what you know. You may still know alot, but if you come to the conclusion that everything you know has no value, it is the same as knowing nothing at all. Essentially this is a reverse denial, and in denying value to all the conditioned content, you may then come upon knowledge that is valuable and not contingent on what the world has taught as “truth.” But you can't come upon that by 'knowing' anything, particularly anything you've been taught to know

Every experience I've ever had has influenced my perception of any experience following. Which will always be a barrier to grasping spiritual truth if the spiritual realm and the sensual realm are mutually exclusive.

Yet, if the ego finds NO value in what it 'knows,' (even the idea of spiritual and sensual exclusivity) than it may be at a loss to predict and prepare for the same experiences it encountered in the past, thereby, completely altering what and how you experience.

This is called enlightenment by “Surprise,” since the ego cannot predict or prepare for how it will occur or what will be experienced, simply because it can never 'know.'

But what ego could ever do that?
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Mike I think you are being too 'cut and dried'.

I believe everyone has moments of 'enlightenment', when their awareness seems to be expanded beyond what they are experiencing.

However because the ego seems to have to rationalise what it doesn't understand, the experience is expained away as deja vu, or the recollection of something in childhood or some other plausible excuse.

Spiritual illumination is not 'learnt' or 'interpreted' experience, it is a realisation of what you are, a feeling or impression, something beyond the minds comprehension.

The finite mind cannot comprehend infinite truth,

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I believe everyone has moments of 'enlightenment', when their awareness seems to be expanded beyond what they are experiencing.

True.

However because the ego seems to have to rationalise what it doesn't understand, the experience is expained away as deja vu, or the recollection of something in childhood or some other plausible excuse.

More than likely the ego seeks out “spiritualized” labels (like “enlightenment”) to make sense of it (Eckhart Tolle come to mind)

Spiritual illumination is not 'learnt' or 'interpreted' experience, it is a realisation of what you are, a feeling or impression, something beyond the minds comprehension.

“what you are”? Well now you've just introduced an interpreter called “you.” I thought you said it was not an interpreted experience? Who is this “you” that gets the realization of “something beyond the minds comprehension”?

The finite mind cannot comprehend infinite truth.

The mind's not finite. It just 'thinks' it is…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

one way to look at the spiritual quest is trying to come to terms with our ephemerality/impermanence, or more bluntly our death.  many times this quest is to find permanence and/or eternal life.  as such, it is not unusual to interpret experiences of Oneness etc. as permanent and/or Absolute.  however, no matter how profound these experiences are, we are still experiencing through our impermanent embodiment, thus we cannot be absolutely sure of the permanence of these profound experiences. 

 many spiritualities and religions however, claim the absoluteness and permanence, that is that when we die we will still live eternally.  one major problem with this approach is it takes the focus from our immediate lives to some future lives after we die.  another major problem is to cement this experience of permanence, religions and spiritualities construct systems that the believers must act toward as a kind of absolute, i.e. as stairways to heaven.  rigidity and intolerance within and without the system foment.  that is, persecution of those not true believers wherever they are found is the norm.  

an alternative option for our relationship with death, instead of trying to escape it through permanence is to utilize death as a way to deepen into life, into this here and now.  one thing that is useful in this endeavour is being okay with notknowing what happens after death.  hence, notknowing being a primary spiritual trait.

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Death and what happens after death doesn't concern me.

Logically I would expect my awareness to continue, disembodied perhaps but if my awareness stopped at death it would render the experience of this incarnation a total loss.

But I live for today, experiencing what I can now, endeavouring not to be influenced by my past nor being too concerned about the future.

To be anything but okay with not knowing is counter productive anyway.

We don't 'know' what is going to happen in 1 or 5 minutes time. 

How can we possibly 'know' what will happen when we blink out of this life?

Re: Spiritual Illumination

Death and what happens after death doesn't concern me.

Logically I would expect my awareness to continue, disembodied perhaps but if my awareness stopped at death it would render the experience of this incarnation a total loss.
….interesting that you say what happens after death doesnt concern you, yet you then say if your awareness stopped at death it would render your life a total loss.  sounds like a contradiction to me.

But I live for today, experiencing what I can now, endeavouring not to be influenced by my past nor being too concerned about the future.

To be anything but okay with not knowing is counter productive anyway.

We don't 'know' what is going to happen in 1 or 5 minutes time. 

How can we possibly 'know' what will happen when we blink out of this life?….i agree, we cant know.  and being okay with not knowing i find it a needed spiritual trait, so fear isnt generated and religious rigidity sets in

Re: Spiritual Illumination

….interesting that you say what happens after death doesnt concern you, yet you then say if your awareness stopped at death it would render your life a total loss.  sounds like a contradiction to me.
 
It's not  a contradiction, I'm just making the comment that it wouldn't make sense to 'forget'what happened in this lifetime if conscious awareness continues after death. 

It's a distinct possibility there is no recollection after death, just look at Alzheimers sufferers, they have no recollection of this life they are still living.

I find the prospect of winking out exciting, not fearful.  If it is complete and total annhilation so what?  What will be will be, I don't think it is in our power to change that.

So why worry?

Re: Spiritual Illumination

So why worry?

Right. So no need to wear seatbelts, take life saving medication or visit doctors. In fact, no need to look both ways before crossing a busy intersection.

Looks like we do believe “it is in our power to change that.”

I think you'll find that most spiritual ideologies do a grave disservice in their desire to spiritually bypass our fears of death. In fact, if we had no fear of death, there would be no spiritual or religious ideologies.

Of course, if you've given up looking both ways before crossing a busy intersection, than maybe you are “excited” about death.

I would only add that there are much less painful ways to expire…
mikeS

Re: Spiritual Illumination

I remember in junior high math, we learned about these certain equations that could be made up. They worked in a unique way, in the fact that no matter what numbers you input as the variable in the equation, the result was always the same number. I forget what they were  called.

This thread reminds me of those.