Explore
Gaia Soulmates
down  About This Group
Fully Engaged

This is a pod that encourages depth of engagement toward awakening with one another, through one another. Discussions will address individual and collective experiences and ideas with no boundaries on how that is expressed.  The tentative premise is that “awakening” or “enlightenment” is not an individual activity in which the results are restricted to only a select...(more)
down  About This Room
The world is engaged in serious spasms of progress that will be uncomfortable if not down right emotionally painful. We're in a purging process that is worldwide and will leave no one untouched. Share you views and opinions here.
down  Room Activity
Nahnni : Sun and Moon
Nahnni posted a reply to the conversation "Islam may be the answer..." ()
Andrew : Eccentric
Andrew posted a reply to the conversation "Islam may be the answer..." ()
Nicole : wakingdreamer
Nicole posted a reply to the conversation "Islam may be the answer..." ()
Andrew : Eccentric
Andrew posted a reply to the conversation "Islam may be the answer..." ()
Andrew : Eccentric
Andrew posted a reply to the conversation "Islam may be the answer..." ()
Nahnni : Sun and Moon
Nahnni posted a reply to the conversation "Islam may be the answer..." ()
down  Group Grapevine
starlight : StarLight Dancing
starlight hey Mike, this thread is very difficult...maybe a new one is in order??? (1 month ago)
Alexa : patient listener
Alexa =/ I can't open the 'you have no right to healthcare thread' anymore because there's a video attached to it...'twas an engaging convo while it lasted though :) (5 months ago)
Suni : Guardian, Warrior, Survivor
Suni no posts?! gotta make some noise up in here..for i am FULLY ENGAGED IN THE GAMES OF LIFE!!! :D (6 months ago)
 Advertising keeps Gaia free! Interested in sponsoring us?
Resultset_previousprevious thread | next threadResultset_next
threaded | unthreaded | newest first


  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nicole said Nov 6, 4:45 AM:

 

Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon. If they cannot accuse us of terrorism, they cannot stop us. The world will support us.
Mohammed Khatib, secretary of the Bilin, West Bank, village council, referred to as “a modern-day Gandhi” whose nonviolent resistance, in cooperation with Israeli peace activists, has earned him arrests, beatings, and death threats by Israeli forces – as well as modest legal victories, which have yet to be enforced, to change the Israeli separation barrier's route through his village's lands. (Source: Los Angeles Times)

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

mikeS said Nov 6, 6:28 AM:

 

Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon. If they cannot accuse us of terrorism, they cannot stop us. The world will support us.

Well of course! You would think this would be a no-brainer. But NOOOOO!

However, I'm not so sure about the world's support since non-violence is so entirely non-egoic. This is because the ego was manufactured from conflict or opposing distinctions in duality. The conflict between your inside experience and an outside world is why we have an ego-self. If that inside/outside conflict were to disappear, so would the ego-self identity we cherish so deeply. Because the ego demands conflict or opposing contrasts in order to realize itself as 'overcoming,' which it can never do since conflict is required and manufactured by the ego (ever wonder why you always have problems?).

Has there ever been a time you experienced perfect unadulterated peace? Sure you have! But only for a moment, after which the ego floods the gates with its demand for conflict and opposition.

Non-violence was the Christ/Buddha message distorted and warped over the centuries by ego groupings. Here is a perfect description of non-duality or complete absence of conflict:

And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.
Isaiah 11:6 (New American Standard Bible)

But now, who among us can really turn the other cheek?

Ha!
mikeS

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nicole said Nov 6, 8:40 AM:

 

Hi Mike,

Yes, it is very challenging for many of us to contemplate all the implications of non-violence and more importantly to live in this way.

I would like to post the beginning of the article:

By Richard BoudreauxNovember 4, 2009
 
Reporting from Bilin, West Bank - Every Friday, Mohammed Khatib's forces assemble for battle with the Israeli army and gather their weapons: a bullhorn, banners – and a fierce belief that peaceful protest can bring about a Palestinian state.

A few hundred strong, they march to the Israeli barrier that separates the tiny farming community of Bilin from much of its land. They chant and shout. A few teenagers throw stones.

Khatib helped launch the weekly ritual five years ago in an attempt to “re-brand” a Palestinian struggle often associated with rocket attacks and suicide bombers.

“Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon,” says the media-savvy secretary of the Bilin village council. “If they cannot accuse us of terrorism, they cannot stop us. The world will support us.”

The problem is, he doesn't get muchsupport from other Palestinians. After two uprisings in two decades, they seem largely indifferent to his quixotic call for a third.

His message is a hard sell: Khatib, 35, is a modern-day Gandhi in a culture that enshrines the language of the gun, even if most Palestinians have never used one. And the risks of his activism are enormous.

The Israeli army has targeted him. He was arrested, severely beaten and threatened with death during a series of midnight raids on the village this summer. He was freed on condition that he report to an Israeli police station each Friday at the hour of the weekly protest. 

Although the village has persisted with its marches and become a widely acclaimed symbol of civil disobedience, his vision of the “Bilin model” being replicated on a large scale across the West Bank has not materialized. 

A few thousand Palestinian activists have been taught nonviolent principles and tactics in the last five years, according to the independent Bethlehem-based Holy Land Trust, which conducts training. Their scattered initiatives have won limited relief from Israel's security restrictions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

But those efforts have not gelled into a mass movement, much less compelled Israel to move toward agreement on a Palestinian state.

Activists say they are hindered by Israeli crackdowns, resignation among ordinary Palestinians and a deep split in the political leadership between Hamas' advocacy of armed struggle and the Palestinian Authority's hope for a revival of U.S.-brokered peace talks with Israel.

Relative calm prevails in the Palestinian territories, but Khatib says it cannot last long under the diplomatic impasse. 

A trim, articulate man with closely cropped hair, he radiates a brooding intensity. In a long conversation, he spoke in rapid-fire sentences about his role models – Mohandas Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela – while taking cellphone calls about the next move in a legal challenge to the barrier.

He believes Israel is trying to crush nonviolent activists because it would rather take on an armed insurgency.

“This doesn't make it any easier for us to convince people that our path of resistance is the right one,” Khatib said. “It's going to be a slow process. There aren't many visible successes so far.”

Khatib got his first taste of militancy as a teenager during the first intifada, the uprising that began in 1987. He blocked roads to try to keep the army out of his village, painted slogans on walls and flew the Palestinian flag, then an illegal act, at demonstrations.

The mass participation and relatively peaceful course of that uprising, when few Palestinians were armed with more than rocks, won sympathy abroad and a major concession: In the early 1990s, Israel recognized the Palestine Liberation Organization and began to consider the creation of a Palestinian state.

Today's nonviolence initiatives tap into nostalgia for the first intifada, in what Khatib calls a sober reaction to the armed uprising that bloodied the first half of this decade after peace talks broke down. More than 4,000 Palestinians and 1,000 Israelis died.

Khatib, who dropped out when things turned violent, remembers the killings that changed him.

It was 2001. Khatib watched in horror as Israeli soldiers shot an unarmed friend at a checkpoint. Two weeks later, the militant Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade made a revenge attack on the checkpoint, killing seven soldiers.

2 next 

  Ian Gardner : Mystic*

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Ian Gardner said Nov 7, 12:26 AM:

 

Please allow me to quote from Part Two of my book The Milk Is White:

Invasion.
This can occur to one's country, property, home or person - the last mentioned physically or mentally, and what we do in response to this varies but, most often, we go on the offensive by counter attack, counter invasion or defensive aggression. This is the animal instinct of territorial defence that we acquired when we took on animal form and manifests as nationalism, racialism and xenophobia of all kinds; it is not a component of our spiritual state. These manifestations are often encouraged by leaders who see them as positive attributes.
 Inaction is usually perceived as negative but it takes great strength to resist the negative reaction of violence - inaction here is positive, not negative.
Retaliation or active self-defence, by perpetrating violence on the invader, is self-defeating in that it creates negative karma for the retaliator in addition to that already created by the invader - a twofold spiritual loss. By reacting thus, we may retain our possessions but our spiritual integrity is violated.
The consequence of passive action (inaction) can be material loss such as land, home etc. (all irrelevant or illusory) but spiritual growth (the relevant and true) is greatly enhanced.
One should also remember that invasion is a karmic necessity for the invaded and that accepting it, without creating more, is the wise action.
It is by no means easy to take this course of action - and particularly so where we have religious texts which appear to justify violence.
All considered, inaction is the spiritual ideal and that which creates the optimum long term results. This spiritual ideal, the spiritual fundamental, is Love, and is in all of us - is all of us - but in most it is covered by the weeds of fear and self-interest.
An example of this is the invasion of Tibet by the Chinese, the departure, after dialogue failed, of the Dalai Lama to Dharamsala in India, and the Diaspora of monks; the last mentioned taking Tibetan Buddhism to all parts of the world.

Note: The Bible - Matthew 5. “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

“Quo Vadis?”

War and Invasion.
The invasion of a peaceful nation, by a warlike nation, is not its downfall but an opportunity for its rise. This is because that invasion is its karma which has to be experienced at some time, and the present is that time; if it were not it would not have happened. Hence, evasion only means postponement. To fight against it with violence, literally and mentally, not only defers karma but creates more, and to accept it is to move forward in spiritual growth.
So it is for each peaceful person or group in the same situation.
“Quo Vadis?”

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

mikeS said Nov 7, 9:33 AM:

 

Ian Gardner,

Hmmmmm…interesting stuff here.

This is the animal instinct of territorial defence that we acquired when we took on animal form and manifests as nationalism, racialism and xenophobia of all kinds; it is not a component of our spiritual state.

Seems likely. However, animals, or nature, does not appear so much interested in nationalism, racism or xenophobia, since all instinctual considerations involve procreation and survival. They have no ego-self for which to congregate into grouping based on belief systems. We may have taken animal form but this seems only in relation to the need to anchor a concrete self-concept. But I merely theorize.

One should also remember that invasion is a karmic necessity for the invaded and that accepting it, without creating more, is the wise action.

Simply allowing oneself to be slayed mercilessly may be a difficult feat for an ego-self committed to 'life.' However, clearly re-conceptualizing death, so as not to fear it, would most likely be a fruitful endeavor in all circumstances.

But, as always, I merely hypothesize….
mikeS

  Nahnni : Sun and Moon

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nahnni said Nov 8, 12:15 AM:

 

“One should also remember that invasion is a karmic necessity for the invaded and that accepting it, without creating more, is the wise action.”

How is this not too easy and falls directly into the mythology of the sin in the Garden of Eden?  Women suffer the penalty of Eve as men suffer the penalty of Adam?  It is good then, for the slave to accept his lost freedom due to some sin of Ham or what?  Enslavement, by any measure, is the belief of the enslaver that the enslaved have no worth beyond their slavery.  It is why serial killers terrorize and kill without remorse; it is why governments and religions excuse the inexcusable.  It is the mind's act of dehumanization alone which causes violence.

We witness non-violent revolution, ie: The Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, the Velvet Revolution in the Czech Republic, Ghandi in India, and we know it is possible to affect change through non-violence, but then we know, also, there have been nuances within the United States government, that have conducted over 200 invasions without provocation, installing and supporting dictatorships since the 1940's.  I do not see it as the karma of those invaded, but the eventual cause and effect to the invaders themselves, regardless of the ignorance of its' populace.   Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad and I would add, blind.  I do not see that the Holocaust under the Nazi State was karmic justice for the Jewish people or any of the victims of that atrocity, but I do believe it was an attempt at justice served at Nuremburg.  I do not see that it was karma for the Amish children to be passively murdered by a lone gunman in the school house that day, but the result of an ego gone crazed by selfish motivation of the murderer. 

What I do see, is choice.  Always choice.  Thou mayest…choose.  I see Karma as the choice given cause and effect, not some undefined sin one pays penalty for.

But that's just me.

Quo Vadis?  Into the mystic, perhaps.  Or, we can argue as Dagobert D. Runes, and ponder the spiritual suicide, such as in Jesus, Socrates and St. Thomas More, who each chose death so that a greater truth might live.

Peace~

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nicole said Nov 8, 4:09 AM:

 

I agree, Nahnni. The glory of humanity is the power to choose - nonviolence as the path has been demonstrated over and over to be incredibly effective.

Love,

Nicole

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

mikeS said Nov 8, 6:30 AM:

 

Nahnni,

I do not see that it was karma for the Amish children to be passively murdered by a lone gunman in the school house that day, but the result of an ego gone crazed by selfish motivation of the murderer.

The Amish are an interesting case in point. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems they refused to superimpose guilt upon the perpetrator. They did not turn their immense sorrow into revenge or retaliation. They did not seek “justice.” Therefore, they did, in fact, turn the other cheek.

Or so it seems…
mikeS

  Nahnni : Sun and Moon

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nahnni said Nov 8, 9:29 AM:

 

Yes, Mike, they did turn the other cheek, but I do not see it as a karmic incident, but madness alone, on the part of the murderer, blind to any alternative in that moment but to kill innocence.  That each victim may have seen “justice” as being in the hands of a higher authority is, yes, a testament to their living faith.  What is done is done.  Forgiveness is the higher road, but still the killer kills.

“They left me to rot,” said the recent murderer in Florida after having killed a co-worker and injured others.  So, the perpetrator sees himself as wielding his version of justice, and then the state wields its version of justice and if there is justice beyond that, then there is justice beyond that, I suppose.

It may be that the quest for justice is equally as much an ego mechanism either way it goes.  But I wonder, then, what is justice at its purest core?  This is why I say justice was “an attempt” at Nuremberg.  Is the question then the effort to rise even above justice, so one can agree with the premise of absolute passive resistance?  Or do we attempt to dissuade the mechanism (power) that demands acquiescence to that which eventually summons justice…as being the only alternative to an incomprehensible wrong?  Justice, by its very nature, becomes victim to interpretation, just as law and lawlessness, perhaps.

I really don't know.  It is an interesting dilemma of attachments, as has been suggested.

Blessings

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

mikeS said Nov 8, 2:24 PM:

 

Nahnni,

Yes, Mike, they did turn the other cheek, but I do not see it as a karmic incident, but madness alone, on the part of the murderer, blind to any alternative in that moment but to kill innocence.

Nor do I believe karma has anything to do with the conditions of the world, just as I believe 'sin' is the most destructive concept ever invented by the collective.

It may be that the quest for justice is equally as much an ego mechanism either way it goes.

In fact, without guilt and innocence, “justice” could not exist and it is because justice exists that guilt rules perception. The contraptions of the ego are easy to spot because they are everywhere.

So how to annihilate the concepts of guilt and innocence so that 'justice' need no longer rule perception?

Thanks,
mikeS

  Nahnni : Sun and Moon

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nahnni said Nov 8, 3:36 PM:

 

Hello Mike,

I agree with “sin” being the most destructive word ever conjured in translation.

But as to annihilating concepts of guilt and innocence, would it not be necessary to first annhilate the mythology which underlies and defines both?  Same with awakening, with truth, with most every philosophical/theosophical concept.  It is all a matter of agreement, disagreement, struggle or submission, no?

It is why I thought you might like Rene Dumaul.  A philosopher very much in parallel with many of your ideas. 

Respectfully~

  Nahnni : Sun and Moon

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nahnni said Nov 8, 10:09 PM:

 

Sorry, that was a misspelling of Daumal.

Here is a quote from the philosopher, Daumal: ”Common experience is the gold reserve which confers an exchange value on the currency which words are; without this reserve of shared experiences, all our pronouncements are checks drawn on insufficient funds.”


  Ian Gardner : Mystic*

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Ian Gardner said Nov 9, 12:03 AM:

 

I use the word “mistake” in preference to the word “sin”.
:-)

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

mikeS said Nov 9, 3:41 AM:

 

I use the word “mistake” in preference to the word “sin”.

Interesting. “A Course in Miracles refers to “sin” as nothing more than an error.

Thanks,
mikeS

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

mikeS said Nov 9, 4:20 AM:

 

Nahnni,

So send me to a link of Daumal's writings.

Thanks!
mikeS

  Nahnni : Sun and Moon

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nahnni said Nov 9, 9:48 AM:

 

That would be about right.  The translation of the word “sin”, is from the Hebrew het, which means “error” and from the Greek, humartia, which also means error.  Then we come to the later Latin translation culpa, meaning fault. So, we see the single translation of one word having significant impact on how an entire civilization has viewed its cosmological relationship.  Sin, as in doing deliberate evil and separating, in use since the 9th Century Old English synn, Old German sunde, and the original het and humartia “error” as being the foible of being human, to which we are all subject.

The closest LINK I can find to Rene Daumal on the net, that would be of benefit, is Kathleen Rosenblatt's overview in her book “The Life and Work of a Mystic Guide”.  I think the title is somewhat misleading, but that's just me.  The Fall edition of Parabola has a good overview, but I can't find any link to the specific article on that site now that it has gone into the Winter issue.  It would seem the man died young, and not much is written about him.

Peace~

  mikeS : Ha!

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

mikeS said Nov 9, 2:40 PM:

 

Thanks Nahnni. I'll check that first link.

However, it seems likely that anyone advocating that we somehow seek to awaken with and through one another would be consigned to the spiritual and philosophical backroom.

In the modern world, the hero must journey alone.
mikeS

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nicole said Nov 10, 8:05 AM:

 

The Greek word hamartia means missing the mark, like an archer aiming with bow and arrow and not getting the bullseye. Very different from how sin was seen by the Puritans eh?

Love,

Nicole

  Andrew : Eccentric

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Andrew said Nov 9, 12:28 PM:

 

Nicole I have to confess I've never been comfortable with the concept that nonviolence could be used as a 'weapon'.

Humility will always triumph over arrogance in the same way turning on the light in a dark room banishes the darkness because the darkness has no foundation.

The suggestion that nonviolence could be used as a tool of aggression ie weapon, underminds the whole concept of peace.

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nicole said Nov 10, 8:01 AM:

 

I see what you mean, Andrew. But really, it is just a figure of speech, is it not?

Love,

Nicole

  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon

Nicole said Dec 12, 6:32 AM:

 

Advent Echoes: Checkpoints and Childbirth on a West Bank Winter Night 
by Phil Haslanger

… More time went by. Still at the checkpoint. And there were two more checkpoints to go. His wife's labor was progressing rapidly. Finally, in desperation, Hani picked up his wife to carry her over hilly, rocky, ice-covered paths on that January night as his sister used the glow from her cell phone to light the way. 
+ Click to continue