Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

You discard your garbage into containers and place it out on the curb where it conveniently gets hauled away by the garbage man. Where does it go? What happens to your garbage after it leaves your curb?

Ha! Who the hell cares!

What matters is that you no longer need be aware of it. It’s not your responsibility any more and you can go about your life pursuing all your big plans for self-fulfillment. Besides, you pay good money to have all that garbage hauled away, why should you have to worry about where it goes or what happens to it?
For many folks “spirituality” serves just such a purpose.

When you embark on your “spiritual journey” all the world’s refuse is conveniently hauled away and you need no longer be aware of it. All that war, starvation, poverty, economic collapse, unemployment, homelessness, child abuse, murder, disenfranchised groups, AIDS, injustices in the world, need not disturb you any longer because “spirituality” has hauled it all away.

Now it’s no longer an obstacle on your “path” and you can simply focus on your pursuit of enlightenment, nirvana, bliss, awakening, realization, revelation, rapture, non-duality, God-consciousness blah, blah, blah, blah.

Hey! It’s okay if people suffer because suffering is part of life, just another object of consciousness, the oneness of everything, etc, etc. As a devoted “spiritual” person you know that God doesn’t want you to sweat the small stuff, because it’s His job to haul it all away (remove it from your consciousness) so that you can focus on receiving what you’ve asked for.

So, just hunker down for a brief spell of meditative bliss and let the garbage man worry about that garbage. For cryin’ out loud!  You’ve got more important stuff to take care of and that’s the point of your “spirituality.” It’s not your problem any more, now that you’ve become “spiritual.”

But just remember, slip up a little, or fail to vigilantly stick to your “spiritual path,” and all that trash will quickly make it’s way back into your awareness and then you’ll be forced to engage with it, because, in reality…

…the garbage man is YOU.  

So stick out your can, here come the “Spiritual” Garbage Man!

More of the same song and dance from
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round…:-)

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Ha!

Would you rather they go up and down?
backward and forward?
(or maybe transcend and include?)

Dude!
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

I listened to a panel discussion not long ago, wherein the participants discussed the spirituality of following one's bliss and higher purpose, et al.  Suddenly, Andrew Harvey, who had been somewhat silent throughout the discussion, blurts out that everyone must stop the bullshit.  It isn't about following one's bliss, it is about the world that seems to be on fire with oppression, poverty, environmental catastrophe, and so on and what we might do about it.  One woman on the panel named Summer, nearly burst out crying and accused Mr. Harvey in no uncertain terms, mind you, of suggesting she should not put her own life and children first in some spiritual hierarchy of priority.  Indeed, she went on to say that it is only by knowing one's own potential that it will trickle into the world at large.  Again, Mr. Harvey called her self-absorbed defense, and said it was only by being involved in activism together that the world would have a chance.  He then went on to accuse them all of being narcissists.  One man on the panel seemed to attempt to placate in saying both were right.  Mr. Harvey disagreed.

I know that Andrew Harvey has his own absorptions, but on the whole, his message of sacred activisim is a sound one.  It's interesting to note how the others attempted to dismiss his argument, shocked, in fact, that he should call them insane to their faces.  I don't know if I mentioned it before, but Eckhart Tolle happened to be in the middle of an interview when the planes crashed into the Twin Towers.  The interviewer later noted that when the interview came to an abrupt end due to the disaster, Mr. Tolle appeared confused as to why that should be.  After all, none of it had to do with him.

I think people just become perilously self-enchanted sometimes, which, I would venture to guess, is the greatest distance between unconsciousness and consciousness, and seems to be the luxury of affluence.

Blessings~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

good point Nahnni

and on the other hand … how to live then - to reconcile the continuous unavoidable compromise of the way we live… what we buy and consume etc.  without falling into a pit of depression or shelving ideals into little boxes and storing them away somewhere in the back of the mind - taking them out in conversations - but not having enough energy to actualize them in day to day living ….

if there is a balance with all of these things - it eludes me.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Nahnni,

Never heard of Andrew Harvey, but I would have liked to have seen that altercation.

It seems to me that any ideology, whether spiritual or otherwise, that promotes disengagement is counterproductive. The ego is a product of fear and what we fear most is each other. Thus, it stands to reason (from my puny mind) that awakening is with each other and through each other. The path and the destination, because the path is the destination. We must travel together to nowhere, because the journey is infinite

The more the merrier!
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Hi Mike~

Andrew Harvey is a bit of an anomaly within the spiritual community in that he places mysticism and activism on an equal plane.  I like his ideas, mostly, and others I find simply interesting.  As I mentioned, he has his own foibles, but overall an important message. 

I do agree about disengagement being counterproductive.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Andrew Harvey on Sun Magazine:

Lawler: “So mysticism alone is not enough? It must merge with activism?” Harvey: ”All mystical systems are addicted to transcending this reality. This addiction is part of the reason why the world is being destroyed. The monotheistic religions honor an off-planet God and would sacrifice this world and its attachments to the adoration of that God. But the God I met was both immanent and transcendent. This world is not an illusion, and the philosophies that say it is are half-baked half-truths. In an authentic mystical experience, the world does disappear and reveal itself as the dance of the divine consciousness. But then it reappears, and you see that everything you are looking at is God, and everything you’re touching is God. This vision completely shatters you.
We are so addicted, either to materialism or to transcending material reality, that we don’t see God right in front of us, in the beggar, the starving child, the brokenhearted woman; in our friend; in the cat; in the flea. We miss it, and in missing it, we allow the world to be destroyed.”
Blessings~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

”All mystical systems are addicted to transcending this reality. This addiction is part of the reason why the world is being destroyed.

Yes!

“This world is not an illusion, and the philosophies that say it is are half-baked half-truths. In an authentic mystical experience, the world does disappear and reveal itself as the dance of the divine consciousness. But then it reappears, and you see that everything you are looking at is God, and everything you’re touching is God. This vision completely shatters you.”

Well….I agree that this “illusion” thing is absurd because, even though we may enjoy calling it all “illusion” this does not deny that this illusional experience has very “real” feel to it.

“Dance of the divine consciousness”? I'm not real attuned to these kinds of metaphors, but I suppose they're often necessary (and folks don't really find you credible unless you employ the language of mysticism). The notion of appearance and reappearance is a bit time-bound and the idea that one would be “shattered” seems to me over the top mysticism, but I suppose language is limited. The hyperbolic use of abnormal language to describe what should be considered 'normal,' often annoys me (but that's just my issue)

We are so addicted, either to materialism or to transcending material reality, that we don’t see God right in front of us, in the beggar, the starving child, the brokenhearted woman; in our friend; in the cat; in the flea. We miss it, and in missing it, we allow the world to be destroyed.”

Ha! Wonderfully described.

However, I don't believe we need to seek out “someone lying in the gutter” or to search for the wise guru-master to 'awaken' you. The opportunities abound and they are all around you, even right there in your own house. Problem is we deny the potential of that to effect us at all, because we really don't particularly like one another. We tend to believe that humans are much too 'impure' to free us from the belief that humans are much too impure.

Thanks!
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Blessings, Christine, I do know what you are saying.  I have no answer either.

Just being kind, perhaps, is a beginning to try and co-exist with all the compromises of living.  In simple kindness, there is no judgment, just kindness.   One can take tender regard to any level, from recycling to stopping the car and helping someone rise up when we see they have slipped on the ice on a cold Winter's day and offering them a ride home.  The Dali Lama, when asked his religion, replied kindness.

Sometimes, it is as simple as that and truly is something we can do, even toward one's self.

Peace~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Nahnni,

I smile to see your icon, surely the kindness in your heart, radiates such warmth.

I am kind as much as I am able to understand.  When kindness is absent around me, it is difficult to comprehend.

Why otherwise is it ever so?

Deb

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Deb, Nahnni, Christine, Mike,

To me, genuine spirituality is about love. Love is about engagement, compassion, walking the walk. I often miss the mark in this regard, do not reach out enough to others who need my help. I don't open myself enough to the suffering in the world because I often find it overwhelming. But my Robert is helping me. He walks in the world as one who is a friend to all, and he challenges me by the way he is to become more myself, in ways I am still closed off.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Greetings to you, Deb.  I was happy to see your posts here and hope you always feel you are welcome :)

I think with practicing kindness, we don't have to understand or think of an outcome.  Just acting on a need that we see in a single moment is just that.  I think our intuition guides us in a flash of an instant, and we know in that same instant whether we step outside of ourselves or whether something may not be healthy or wholesome in that moment as well.

It's not like going on a quest for kindness, but just walking with it.  Things occur as they occur.

Blessings~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Greetings Nicole~

I think things are very overwhelming and then it is good to stop for a moment and breathe deeply. The thing about reaching out is not so much the anticipation or motivation behind reaching out, but simply reaching out.   Sometimes, it is as simple as a brief prayer in blessing.

Blessings :)

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Yes, Nahnni, the reaching out quite simply and blessing.

Much love,

Nicole

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Greetings Nicole~

From Nipun Mehta: “Anytime you practice the smallest act of service, even if it's only holding a door for somebody…that giving changes the deep habit of mind from everything being me-centered.”

For me, this kind of sums up what we can do and what we do does matter. It's a beginning, anyway. Just to be conscious of what we are doing sometimes is the best that can be achieved in any given moment.

Peace~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

That is so beautiful. Thank you!

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

There seems to be one fundamental problem with your analogy MikeS.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but the way you express it if you see someone lying in the gutter then you should get down and lie in the gutter with them, metaphorically come down to their level.of pain and suffering.

I can't see how that would help them or you. 

If I have discovered a higher plain of existence where pain and suffering no longer exist on that level of reality, and I come across someone suffering because of their attachment to the physical/sensual realm, it makes a lot more sense that I remain on that higher plain, that the other person might be drawn up to it than jump back into the grave of pain and suffering and play dead somehow expecting that doing so is going to help them.

It just doesn't work for me Mike.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

If I have discovered a higher plain of existence where pain and suffering no longer exist on that level of reality, and I come across someone suffering because of their attachment to the physical/sensual realm, it makes a lot more sense that I remain on that higher plain, that the other person might be drawn up to it than jump back into the grave of pain and suffering and play dead somehow expecting that doing so is going to help them.

Andy! Are you saying that “you” (or the belief system you identify with as “you”) are on a “higher plain of existence” where the rest of us are not? That is absent all the rest of us po'folk? So on this “level of reality” you no longer experience “pain and suffering”?

Dang!!!

Andy, are you our Guru????
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Mike ultimately we are all our own Guru's.

If I am enjoying material prosperity and I come across someone that is struggling to make ends meet, just giving money to meet his need is not helping him in the long run, like the give a man a fish analogy.

This principle applies everywhere, it is called education. 

Whether you call it a higher plain of existence or better educated to handle life the result is the same.

Giving someone that is starving some food may appease your conscience but unless you take on the commitment to show them how to overcome their circumstances you are just delaying the inevitable.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

This principle applies everywhere, it is called education.

Seems to me that “education” does create “material prosperity,” which emphasizes inequality, but does little more than that. With all the so-called educated ones in the world, we must wonder why the world has not benefited and, in fact, seems the lesser because of it.

Is all our glorious “education” keeping us apart rather than bringing us together?

Just wondering….
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

There are many ways to learn, relatively few in the classrooms. As important as my own work of afterschool learning is to me, I know and grieve that those who most need it do not have it available to them - yes, there is a cost to our program, but the harder cost is the commitment of time and effort on the part of parents, which many will not persevere to do for their children.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Mike I'm talking about education in its broadest sense. 

As a parent you have been educating your children since birth, imparting knowledge and survival skills, teaching them to communicate and interact socially. 

That education has drawn your children to you but will ultimately be the means by which they will leave home. 

You are empowering them to be independant.

You are doing this by raising their awareness to that of a self sufficient adult.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

You are doing this by raising their awareness to that of a self sufficient adult.

Okay, okay!

I'm aware of this failure, but why rub it in!
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Failure???  Get real MikeS…

Don't start a pity party.  You love your kids, that is the greatest gift you can impart to them.

Nothing else matters.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Don't start a pity party.  You love your kids, that is the greatest gift you can impart to them. Nothing else matters.

Exactly! Nothing else matters, particularly and especially NOT, “raising their awareness to that of a self sufficient adult.”

mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Greetings Andrew~

“…and I come across someone suffering because of their attachment to the physical/sensual realm, it makes a lot more sense that I remain on that higher plain, that the other person might be drawn up to it”

I think the question then becomes, how does one draw the other person up?  I see it as simply acknowledging the fact you have passed another human being.  If you see he needs soup, why not give him some soup?  Why not listen to his story if you see no peril in doing so?  As you leave his company, you have given two things, you have given warm soup to nourish the body and you have listened to nourish the soul.  That alone may change the whole landscape for that individual.  It might not, but it might.

Someone once told me a story about being in a psychiatric hospital many years ago.  An older patient came up to him at some point and asked if he wanted to know about a favorite day.  The people around him said, just say yes, so he agreed to hear about this special day.  The man told him that one day they, the patients, were all allowed to go to the store in town and purchase something.  He chose a bar of chocolate and the girl behind the counter was kind to him.

That was his favorite day.  The person who shared this experience found out that whenever this man went into a fit of despair, the nurses would ask him to speak of that day, and then he rose out of his darkness.

It is a true story.  And the value in it is sometimes things are just that simple.  In that moment, the patient who told the story of his favorite day was not judged by the girl behind the counter as being someone “crazy” and that was why he was in some way healed by that moment of non-judgment.

I have brought up kindness in this particular thread only because I think it is part of an engagement between human beings that can have a profound effect on someone's life and a person we may never see again, but in another moment be remembered and passed on.  I don't so much see it as ascension or descending, just a moment that bridges.  Beyond this, I don't know anymore than anyone else.

I would agree that one cannot fall backward.  I took Mike's post as pointing out the hypocrisy of self-absorption under the guise of spiritual practice.  We all know this exists.

I have enjoyed reading your posts here.

Blessings~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Nahnni, I agree with you.

I didn't elaborate on giving someone a drink of water that is thirsty because to me that is a given.  You have to support the other while they are learning to support themselves… Love in action.

That doesn't mean you have to adopt their lack, they must be helped to adopt your supply.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Perhaps a novel perspective I can offer this group is that, having an sense of what the physical basis for spirituality is, it is absolutely clear to me that organic life has been converted energy to spirit for billions of years. We are Johnny-come-latelys.

Much of that spiritual energy is invested in patterns of blood spirituality that drives us to indulge material excess.

Various cultures have tried to liberate themselves from that mess for a long time. In the traditions of Abraham, the women were the first to create that “sacred” space. Read Cain's story: “Evil crouches at the door. It wants to have you, but you can master it.” I don't have enough insight into other traditions to have a sense of how the process has progressed elsewhere.

The point is that becoming spiritually clean is taking out the garbage. It is getting rid of all the crap that has piled up in us over the long history of our lives. Until we do, it's going to be really hard to maintain the discipline to avoid ecological disaster.

Think about it: these things have been around for HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, if not BILLIONS of years.

So it is all connected, it is all part of the same process. Telling people that aren't “activists” that they are narcissistic is not helpful. It dumps spiritual garbage into them. The attack is actually hypocritical: the attacker is simply a material narcissist. They focus on what they understand, and assert that it is the only thing that is important.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Trichronos,

“…it is absolutely clear to me that organic life has been converted energy to spirit for billions of years.

For me, once I become absolutely clear about something, It usually turns out that I'm wrong (personally speaking).

The point is that becoming spiritually clean is taking out the garbage. It is getting rid of all the crap that has piled up in us over the long history of our lives. Until we do, it's going to be really hard to maintain the discipline to avoid ecological disaster.

I also believe that when an ego determines what is and is not garbage, then we're in for one hell of a ride (and have been on that ride for quite some time). I suggest that we exclude nothing, because the ego knows nothing (of any real value).

So it is all connected, it is all part of the same process. Telling people that aren't “activists” that they are narcissistic is not helpful. It dumps spiritual garbage into them. The attack is actually hypocritical: the attacker is simply a material narcissist. They focus on what they understand, and assert that it is the only thing that is important.

This has nothing to do with being a social “activist,” since activism is nothing more than a fixated ego. I merely suggest that we surrender determining what is, and is not garbage, and thereby, engage our own little microcosmic worlds.
An authentic engagement with 'spirit' will involve excruciating honesty and nothing is excluded but all disclosed. I merely suggest that we start engaging the garbage that we seek to bypass and deny.
I include myself in everything I write, because it was from my own inspection that I saw my own hypocrisy.

Do you see yours?
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

In Andrew Harvey's perspective, love equals action.  That is his position.  For Nipun Mehta, it is the smallest act of generosity that takes the mind out of its own self-center.   Neither of them are material narcissists in that sense of the word.  If you are familiar with Andrew Harvey or Nipun Mehta, you will find their position is quite clear on how mysticism entails being aware of and acting on solutions that involve engagement with other human beings, the Earth, and so forth.  This is not to say either is above anyone else, or, as has been said, are not without human foibles, but they do both offer some perspective on how changes may begin.  To solely focus on one's own spiritual awareness and hold it in high esteem within one's own mind and without the awareness that we are not alone in this world is narcissism at its core.  The premise that we are solely obligated to our own spiritual advancement separates that process of connection, because we separate ourselves, then, from the whole by enchantments, as it were, of our own particular and virtuous quest while almost pitying those who we believe somehow have made poor choices either presently or in some nebulous past experience, both spiritually and materially.

That Andrew Harvey was not being politically correct in pointing out the participants self-absorption during the panel discussion did upset people, but that is the scourge of political correctness of our time.  It doesn't make him right, neither does it make him wrong.  It does make him outspoken.  Passion can be a foible as well as passivity when taken to the extreme.  It would be his position to expose the spiritual garbage, if it comes down to that.  It does not make him a narcissist in that point of view, but it does make him passionate in his position based on his experience and world view.

But I am not here to defend Andrew Harvey, merely to point out that he is one of those, perhaps, who does expose the things we like to hide from ourselves, and that is that we can take action on easing suffering without falling into an abyss.  To be fair, both individuals come from relative affluence, and this is probably where each came to see the futility in materialism and the self-absorption contained within that materialism.

So, in some ways, it is difficult to toss out the garbage if one is unaware of what that garbage is.  Hoarders do it all the time.  Physically and emotionally.  One can live in an empty room and still be a hoarder.

Interesting discussion~

Blessings~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

To solely focus on one's own spiritual awareness and hold it in high esteem within one's own mind and without the awareness that we are not alone in this world is narcissism at its core.  The premise that we are solely obligated to our own spiritual advancement separates that process of connection, because we separate ourselves, then, from the whole by enchantments, as it were, of our own particular and virtuous quest while almost pitying those who we believe somehow have made poor choices either presently or in some nebulous past experience, both spiritually and materially.

Oh good grief! I give up. From now on, Nahnni, when I have something to say I'll simply ask you to put it in words that everyone can understand.

Well said!!

In addition, I want to emphasize that everything that I speak of and post was identified within myself first. Everything I blame others for is my own. I understand this, but I think others feel I'm portraying myself as some sort of holier than thou personality.
Nope. I'm a fook up and my life is indicative of significant errors. The things that I could disclose would raise the hair on the neck.

I'm the garbage man and the garbage is me…
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

MikeS.

Remain calm.

This will  probably throw you out of your seat with surprise BUT

There are others that feel like you do, that empathise with you…

OMG YES…. there are…

Even I, yes I thought my life was crap, a waste of space, a divine mistake or the product of an evil, sarcastic, cruel and sadistic deity that had placed me here for its amusement.

It took years of searching and self examination to realise that the garbage that had attached itself to me was not the real me at all, it wasn't even a reflection of the reality of my being.  It was an appendage that blinded me into thinking my life was all that crap.

Of course if I hadn't thought my life was crap and a waste of space I wouldn't have bothered looking for answers.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Andrew,

Thanks for coming to my emotional rescue, but at this point in my life I do realize that we are all fooked up and we should join under such a banner of equality.

The disclaimer was for the lightworkers, who have completely transcended their sheit.

But thanks all the same…
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Well, the life of the pirate isn't an easy one, Mike.

I don't see you or your viewpoints as holier than thou.  You just make clever moves on the chessboard.   It urges those who play to think on a level sometimes unfamiliar, but that's the game of chess, you know?

Anyway, I hope I did not come across as redundant in my previous comment.  I did not wish to.   I think we were responding to the question at the same time.

Peace~

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Hey Mike, I am in total agreement with your original post, but you left out one important thing, the idea of karma…so if there are children starving, or anyone suffering, the enlightened have an easy out…”It must be their Karma”…let's pull the shades down in our glass houses and ignore what's going on in our own backyards…

I say…GARBAGE!!!

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Yes! karma is just another way we make compromises with reality so that we can avoid engaging with it. “Karma” is nothing more than the western rendition of “sin.” Both tend to keep people dependent on ideological means of salvation, as opposed to saving ourselves.

Beware the eastern enlightenment dogma because it's no different than the western salvational dogma. I often wonder why people thin there is a difference between the two.

Good Point! (actually that is a thread all to itself)
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Starlight, in 30 years of searching, researching, reading, listening, communing with, working with, laughing with, crying with, helping and being helped by many genuine 'enlightened' teachers and workers I have never heard or even had it intimated that somehow karma was responsible for the starving, diseased and generally ignored mass of perishing humanity that need help so desperately.

As anyone that remembers my 'disagreements' with certain of Gaia's illuminati knows I don't suffer fools gladly and I was outspoken about action (or non action) that I saw as hypocrisy.

Did it stop the hypocrisy?  No.

What response did I get?  I doubt you would believe me if I told you.

I rejoined Gaia fresh, enthusiastic ready for a new start and hoping to make a difference for the better.  That is what I'm continuing to pursue. 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, while looking through profiles trying to locate old friends and acquaintances I discovered that at least 2 of Gaia's ambassadors had blocked me though I hadn't made any attempt to make contact or even draw their attention. 

I cannot even begin to understand what level of bitterness leads people to consciously allow unforgiveness to fester in their hearts for such a long period of time over something that started as a petty misunderstanding.

It flies in the face of everything I've gleaned about a spiritual illumination.

However I'm determined I'll concentrate on the genuine ones and let the others wallow in their artificial, pointless, miserable, existences.

In love, of course.

Don't make the same mistake I did and be dragged down to their level.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Take the high road, that's right Andrew!

Much love,

Nicole

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

It is difficult to catch up at times but I read this one out. I like your post as well mikeS and must agree that once again Nahanni positioned it gracefully as always.

And a “toot” “toot” to Frans…c'mon mikeS…that one was funny!

“Wheels on the bus”…hahahahahhah!

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

As I sit  here, listening to Disturbed's  first album “The Sickness” I try to find just the right words to comment on this thread. You see, I realize now, every word I write, if not picked with the utmost of care, will describe imperfectly the ideas I would like to try to relate. Thinking about it though, I know, that words are imperfect in relating some of the concepts and ideas I wish to impart, and as with everything in life, are up for interpretation.


I learned the importance of words and keeping them just the way you choose to write them from an author who is a personal hero of mine, Ray Bradbury. Many authors are quick to point out the evils of editing words for any reason, and Ray illistrated the point to it's ultimate conclusion in “Fahrenheit 451”. As far as communication goes, it's about one of the best ways we have to share the inner world that exists only in our heads.  Even with out editing, words can be twisted to a smart person's advantage very easily, which has been shown time and again with history; religion and spirituality being no small part of that manipulation.


Spirituality is a deeply personal experience of a person trying to relate to the greater universe as a whole and find his or her place in it. Religion is a homogenized set of rules, guides and stories that outline a basic spiritual concept for a mass of people. Like any message directed towards a mass of people, it is generally pared down to the lowest common denominator to make it palatable to as many people as possible. Everyone who receives the information, how ever it is relayed, still has to decide how they personally will interpret it. This is clearly displayed in the various sects that Catholicism has separated into, for example. 


The world that we live in is made up of fractals. You see it everywhere around you, the interaction of atomic  bodies mirrored by the interplay of cosmic bodies, for example. Spirituality is much the same, the basic concepts are relatively easy to grasp, but the complexity of it's implications and ramifications are never ending. Some one who hears the basic precepts might be fooled into believing it is a simple and naive approach to reality. Truth be told, the casual observer and the initiate have not spent enough time meditating and following the possibilities of the precepts.

For example: The situation that Mike opened this thread with. Many spiritual and enlightened folks seem to be looking for an out from the 'earthly realm' as it were, and writing it off completely, for bigger and better things. This, to my mind, is a very shallow view, of spirituality for both those practicing it, and observing it. While this is indeed a common trap for many people who just happen upon the concepts of spirit and how it relates to us as a whole, when followed to a bit  deeper level you see it doesn't work out.


From here I will speak of my own spiritual views, as they are the only ones I know how to relate properly. I believe that we are all emanations of the same consciousness, played out in various versions. Thou art God, as Heinlein reasoned in “Stranger in a Strange Land”, if God is in everything, then everything, including us must be God. The interesting thing about this view, is ultimately, it doesn't much change the picture of the universe that everyone else paints, for quite literally, we all have equal power over our reality. This does not give me an out for the reality I live in, but rather gives me a greater responsibility to it. Sin and karma, make much more sense to me, because I believe the transgressions I make against others are also made on myself, for it's all me. It does no good for me to shuffle off my trash on some one else, because, that is also me, and the landfill it goes to is me, and the things it kills are also me.


I am also forced to realize, and take responsibility for the fact that I placed myself here in the physical, relative realm.  This place, to me, is not a punishment, a test, or a rock polisher, making me into something better. It is simply an experience, a day dream, a pleasurable excursion. This place, in it's ups and downs, provides for me a way to choose who and what I want to be, from moment to moment, I get to choose, as we all do, what kind of person we are. I do not want out of the roller coaster, instead I am choosing to relish and cherish every up and down of every moment for the blessing it is. More over, I do my very best, from moment to moment, day to day, to bring this understanding, this joy and this bliss to everyone that I meet.

I make my way through every day, with out requirement for any set of outcomes, but rather enjoy what is. I know I have the power to be and do as I choose, and I exercise that power regularly. I feel whole and complete, I pick up my messes and even have the strength and energy to help other's pick up theirs. My spirituality is not an escape from this place, it makes me more attuned to it than I ever have been before.


One reality I am particularly aware of, is the fact that there will never be a time on this planet were things will forever be peace and calm.  Not because we don't want it, but rather for that exact reason. Here, with out the example of a thing's opposite, it ceases to exist, it simply IS. Here we are in the business of exploring the dichotomies, peace, togetherness, ultimate love, takes us out of this place, it puts the big bang back together and moves us all onward and upwards. It is the ultimate fate of all things, it ends the creation of this universe, the big “The End”, and then onto other dreams and games.


If you want something, be it, I believe it's that simple, you can blame other's for your problems, but that, takes the solution out of your hands, and I don't believe in that. 


I've been waiting my whole life for just one ( _uck!)
And all I needed was just one ( _uck!)
How can you say that you don't give a (_uck!)
I find myself stupified, coming back again
All I wanted was just one (_uck!)
One tiny little innocent (_uck!)
And when I feel like I'm shit out of (_uck!)
I find my stupified, coming back again

Why, do you like playing around with
My, narrow scope of reality
I, can feel it all start slipping
I think I'm breaking down

Why, do you like playing around with
My, narrow scope of reality
I, can feel it all start slipping away
See but I don't get it
Don't you think maybe we could put it on credit
Don't you think it can take control when I don't let it
I get stupified
It's all the same you say
Live with it


~Stupified: Disturbed

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Thank you so much for this. I find it most helpful in terms of understanding your perspectives.

As a churchgoer, I concur greatly with much of what you say about religion. I am an Anglican and there is such a huge range of beliefs and expressions within this part of Christianity alone, whether you look at the churches or the people who make up the churches, so that you have churches that go from very fundamentalist to extremely liberal, from very informal to almost indistinguishable from the most solemn Catholic churches, etc. And within each church, so many different people, different views.

So there is a sense in which there is truly little or no “homogenisation” but great diversity, at least in most churches. Yes, there are churches that are very rigid and everyone must fall into a party line. But not many of these are Anglican :) which is one of the big reasons I am so happy in this church.

I know that wherever I go, when I move to Ontario for example, I will find a place within the Anglican church where I can feel at home.

I believe in your philosophy as you describe it here:

This place, to me, is not a punishment, a test, or a rock polisher, making me into something better. It is simply an experience, a day dream, a pleasurable excursion. This place, in it's ups and downs, provides for me a way to choose who and what I want to be, from moment to moment, I get to choose, as we all do, what kind of person we are. I do not want out of the roller coaster, instead I am choosing to relish and cherish every up and down of every moment for the blessing it is. More over, I do my very best, from moment to moment, day to day, to bring this understanding, this joy and this bliss to everyone that I meet.

I make my way through every day, with out requirement for any set of outcomes, but rather enjoy what is. I know I have the power to be and do as I choose, and I exercise that power regularly. I feel whole and complete, I pick up my messes and even have the strength and energy to help other's pick up theirs. My spirituality is not an escape from this place, it makes me more attuned to it than I ever have been before.


I do feel that this “world is not my home, I am just passing through”. I feel like an alien on a strange planet. However, that does not make me trivialise my experience but rather live it very passionately so that when I die, I can be satisfied that I have lived, whether or not anything comes next.


Love,


Nicole

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

The Stress Points here seem to be Inside Us, and Outside Us.
We withdraw from the World to Work on Ourselves, to Reflect, to Sort Out Our Truths, Our Wisdoms, and ReBuild Ourselves, and Our View of the World.

At Some Point, We are Renewed enough to venture back out into the World.
Now, You can dismiss the World and All of its People as Garbage, along with All of the Mental Garbage that You had to Sort Out and Discard.

But God doesnt make Garbage.  Men consume, misuse, overuse, underuse, pervert, destroy, pollute, and otherwise create physical garbage, and mental garbage ( which is everything that does not promote sustainable survival, or sustainable mentally, spiritually and physically healthy humanity ).

We go back into the World, and Recoil from seeing the garbage, the disease that We worked so hard to Rid Ourselves from. 

 But We cured Ourselves, and We were diseased, too.

————————————————————————————————————–

 Did Jesus Recoil from Us, Enlightened as He Was ?

Did He not mingle with all the people, all the garbage, all the disillusionment
and disease, and ignorance and sin, and greed ? Why ? He Was a Master of the Highest Order. He could have had his Disciples do this “Dirty Work”.

But He didnt avoid this work, He applied HImself to It.  He changed everyone
He came in contact with, some more, some less.  Pontius Pilates Wife never got over Jesus, and left Her Husband after Jesus Died, and said that Jesus had a greater affect on Her than any Man.

She said She saw Him at a distance with others, and that a glow, of a Holy Man was upon HIm.  This witness from an unbeliever, a Roman Wife of the Governor who condemned Jesus to Death at the request of the Sanhedrin.

He set the example for Us, and that was the real contribution He made to Us, He was merely an example, a demonstration, that a Man can rise above the World while in the World, Save His fellow man, and Ascend into Heaven.

I Think that this Example cannot be ignored, and that if We do as He did,
We cannot stray far from the True Path.

Respect to All, Torchholder

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

“Christ” is the archetype of the collective consciousness projected outward as a form, which some sad fool named “Jesus.”

The problem with formulating, or embodying archetypes, is that it tends to deny that to be an archetype it must be in each and every mind. To deny this the ego must strip itself away and thereby make it separate from the archetype. If the ego-self is separate from the archetype, since it has been given a form separate from “me,” then I'm under no obligation to live out and personify, in my own form, what is separate from me and not a part of me.

The ego conveniently does this by making the form, “Jesus Christ” a supernatural embodiment that is alien and unattainable by me. Jesus Christ could love the “garbage” because we made “him” a supernatural formulated incarnation of God, rather than nothing more than an embodiment of a collective consciousness that my localized consciousness is indelibly linked to.

Thus, it is easy to resign my 'self' to the fact that I could never do what “he” did and, therefore, no one, after 2000 yrs, ever has.

There never was a form called Jesus Christ. However, there is an archetype that we all have access to, since we made it up. This is the “revelation” that we will eventually realize and become enlightened to and when we realize this collectively, then I imagine there will be nothing we can't do, since all the powers inserted into the form “Jesus Christ” will then be available to all of us.

I imagine this will be an “enlightening” experience….
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

There never was a form called Jesus Christ
 
Gee Mike, that's a bit harsh

 it is easy to resign my 'self' to the fact that I could never do what “he” did and, therefore, no one, after 2000 yrs, ever has.
 
How do you know?  If people did do what Jesus did it doesn't mean that everybody is going to hear about it Mike.

Jesus Christ was the blueprint, the example to which everyone could aspire.  That is not what religion teaches but it is what the Bible promises.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, it just means you haven't experienced it.

Oh, one other thing, the Bible says that those that come to God must believe that he is and that he is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him.

It makes sense, if someone was looking for you they'd have to firstly believe you existed, and they would be rewarded in their search when they found you.

Simple really.

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

How do you know?  If people did do what Jesus did it doesn't mean that everybody is going to hear about it Mike.

The fact that we demand the archetype be manifest in a specific form or person, takes us all of the hook for miracles. Thus, “Jesus” the man was employed by God because of his purity and innocence. However, “I” (all of us) could not possibly be as pure, nor as innocent, so best to not even try. Therefore, “Jesus” is unattainable and this sets the stage for those who come close, i.e., popes, priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. Yet even they fail to make the grade completely.

This game is fairly clear…
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Why are popes, priests, etc somehow closer to Jesus? How do you know who is more Christlike? There are many assumptions in this short post.

It is God who does miracles so they can be done in and through anyone.

Not a question of anyone's purity or innocence.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

Why are popes, priests, etc somehow closer to Jesus? How do you know who is more Christlike? There are many assumptions in this short post.

It's not an assumption, but a fact. Examine the history of the world, Nicole. I am not saying I believe this is true, merely that the world has believed it for centuries and, as much as we might wish to be free of, we are all a part of that whole. Even kings were allotted divine rule by popes and kings and popes fought over who was more aligned with God.
That fact is you can't know who is more “Christlike.” Nevertheless, the egoic world has sought to make that determination through hierarchies of Christ. Christianity has a history of miraculous “saints.” Top a' the line in God's army.

Therefore, in such a hierarchy, those at the bottom are easily victimized as insignificant. Even Capitalism, based on christian religious precepts and ideologies, perpetuates such a hierarchy of God and the obvious marginalization of the poor.

It's all there to see…
mikeS

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

I agree, I am constantly inspired by Jesus' Way.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Stick Out Your Can, Here Come the Garbage Man!!

I agree. I think It has always been up to Us, to Save Ourselves.

  Our Choices Determine Our path.

 Jesus points the Way to Relate to the World by HIs Example.

  This is not about “slinging Hash”, or Traditional Religious Doctrine,
 but about Jesus the Person, as an example for Us to follow,
 as We journey thru Our Own Enlightenment.

 Mathatma Ghandhi, and Mother Teresa, and Buddha, and the Dalai Lama,
 also can Help Us by Example, along the Way.

And in a very real sense, We are examples to Each Other,
bringing new facets of the Spiritual Jewel to Each Other.

Each Person carries a View of the World within Them. 
 The More Views We share with Others,
 the More Complete is Our Vision of the World.

Reflections, Brothers and Sisters ?