Inner Madness

Open your heart to those who are in love with the divine. Matters of the heart can only be revealed to someone who has fallen for the beauty of the divine, who has found joy in the countenance of the divine, in whom the inner madness has awakened.  Cheyenne Steele

I enjoy reading the thoughs that Cheyenne shares every day but this one really struck a chord with me.

Madness can be described as being out of your mind, an excellent definition of spiritual illumination or, dare I say it in MikeS's pod…. enlightenment…

How mad are you?

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Good grief!!!

Do you know she charges $1,875 for a Buddha sculpture! WhadaFoook!!

”Open your heart to those who are in love with the divine. Matters of the heart can only be revealed to someone who has fallen for the beauty of the divine, who has found joy in the countenance of the divine, in whom the inner madness has awakened.”

And the rest of us can go pound sand.

Looks to me like another truth-proprietor. Lovely eyes, though.

“They say there's a place down in Mexico
Where a man can fly over mountains and hills
And he don't need an airplane or some kind of engine
And he never will
Now you know it's a meaningless question
To ask if those stories are right
'Cause what matters most is the feeling
You get when you're hypnotized”
(Fleetwood Mac)

Ha! Andy! Have you been hypnotized!
mikeS

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MikeS,

Cheyenne and I have been friends since I first joined Gaia and I hold her in the highest esteem. 

There is an extrordinary lady behind those lovely eyes, kind, wise, sharp, trustworthy and disarmingly honest.

Cheyenne is married with 5 beautiful children and teaches meditation and relaxation and is no fool.

Hypnosis notwithstandinag, I trust her implicitly and value her friendship enormously. 

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Sometimes I get it too, Mike..! Did you know I also charge $2,195 for Manjushi??(smile!)…

And my friend, I do not teach truth, I teach meditation.  Big difference!!!  Never speak on truth - let everyone find their truth, I teach the art of meditation!  Zen - Tantra- Patanjali - Children (!)….O, you should see this!
 
A very strong power of imagination is needed to be hypnotized, one who is very intelligent, imaginative, creative - a great scientist, artists, poets, painters, musicians!!  One who is very sensitive!
 
Oh - Welll, I shall go sit now - as my bad is some sore from pounding sand!
 
with love!
cheyenne

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BUT Cheyenne you don't charge a cracker for the most precious gift of all…

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Well…

…a consultation is $65 an hour and private meditation sessions are $55.

Hey! It's on the website, I ain't making this up.

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Whooooeeee!

Sometimes I like jumpin' in the fire to see what burns.

And my friend, I do not teach truth, I teach meditation.  Big difference!!!  Never speak on truth - let everyone find their truth, I teach the art of meditation!  Zen - Tantra- Patanjali - Children (!)….O, you should see this!

Yes, Cheyenne, you do teach meditation, no doubt about that. However, why meditate, if no outcome is anticipated. So what outcomes do you advertize: “supernatural powers,” “self-liberation, “nirvana,” “blissfulness,” “the highest happiness,” “eternal self,” etc, etc, etc.

“Moksha, Jnana, Nirvana, Bodhi, Satori, Dzogchen, Moksa - These are different names for 'Enlightenment.”  Or just eastern labels for…”The Truth.” I mean, let's be real about this shall we.

I have absolutely no issue with meditation or meditation teachers. What I do take issue with are the outcomes advertised to promote meditation, as if those who do not meditate will somehow miss out on this bountiful feast.

“Meditation pursued for mental and physical well-being without any spiritual goal.”

Meditation certainly relaxes and calms one so that the ability to deeply engage the world is enhanced. It is in that engagement that “enlightenment” will be discovered with others and not alone. But the goal of meditation has been misinterpreted for centuries and so we have a disengaged world, imploding in on itself.

A very strong power of imagination is needed to be hypnotized, one who is very intelligent, imaginative, creative - a great scientist, artists, poets, painters, musicians!!  One who is very sensitive!

Yep!! That's Andy the Aus. (although he is somewhat a tattletale).

Welcome to the pod, Cheyenne!
mikeS

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I love Cheyenne very much as well. I appreciate her wisdom and passion and warmth and am delighted to see her here. 

How great that you drew her, Andrew!

Love,

Nicole

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Oh, My Mike!  I can well understand! 

Meditation is an art - it is also a discipline. No need to feel jealous, for example, of dancers who grow in strength - we don't say, hey you are becoming a dancer and now it makes me feel like I cannot move unless I take dance lessons.  Hey, if you wish just to dance, dance!  But see, my friend, many people I work with are paralyzed with anxiety, pains, confusion, misunderstandings.  I work with real people.  Not ideals.  I work on the ground level, not up in the heights, working together with doctors and psychologist, people suffering OCD, anxiety, depression, illness, children with ADD.  We are working with all our heart, to heal and bring the community together in health and love.  And I work with those who do see enlightenment as an art - as I do, or those just wishing to learn relaxation.  OH, the range of this art, is unmeasurable.  And it is blessing for me to be working with and meditating with such sincere and lovely souls!

There is nothing romantic going on here! (smiling!)…there are many gifts and doors that can be opened through the gift of meditation.  But that in no way is saying that a child, a neighbor, a friend doesn't have it already!  No judgement!  I celebrate with every soul who is happy, who has peace!  I do not tell people they need it, no!  But if you come, I give ALL to help that individual find peace, BY ALL MEANS! (smiling!)

I am also a mother of five young children!

People are willing to pay away their life for nothing!  I see no problem to charge - though my private sessions say 65 - 55.  I will say sincerely, I charge them 40 because they come three times a week! For years without interruption.!!!  My time is worth something, yes!  I work daily giving 3 sometimes 4 private sessions a day, then teaching three classes a week at night - which I charge $10. a class!!! 

My friend, should I work hours and hours and hours for the community for free?

AND Thank you so much for the welcome!  I am happy to be here!!

Big hug!  Thank YOU!
with love!
Cheyenne

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Nicole!  thank YOU!  I love you too!  That is the enlightenment to me!  Love between people!!!

Smiling and BIG hug!

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Cheyenne,

I work with real people.  Not ideals.  I work on the ground level, not up in the heights, working together with doctors and psychologist, people suffering OCD, anxiety, depression, illness, children with ADD.  We are working with all our heart, to heal and bring the community together in health and love.

This is encouraging and less along the lines of exalted egoic megalomania spouted by most modern gurus. Possibly I was too quick to judge (but that's my karma, Ha!)

Hmmm….and it looks like we may have some commonality. As a social worker and licensed psychotherapist, I too work with the disorders you speak of. However, “enlightenment” is an “ideal” and I believe we must be careful when informing others of our ideals, especially those suffering with clinical disabilities.

Again, my issue is not with meditation, but with the idea that if an 'individual' disengages with the world, through yrs of meditation, that somehow the individual will attain some truth or “enlightenment” that the rest of the world is not privy to, thereby setting up an inequality and inequality results in conflict. With a world sorely in need of more depth of engagement, we all suffer accordingly. And make no mistake, honing the “art” of meditation can become a time consuming addiction for many, often no different than the ingestible addictive disorders.

In my 25 years experience I have found that all individual disorders are disorders of relationship. Enlightenment, or 'awakening,' is a product of spiritual intimacy that dissolves egoic boundaries that we have constructed from fear. We can only access that depth of engagement through and with others.

Hence, the title of this pod…
mikeS

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Mike I have no problem with the practice of 'disengaging' with the world for a period in order to get myself settled and sorted out before I attempt to help others.  Some might refer to it as a break or a vacation.

Nor do I have a problem with people charging others for their services.  If someone comes to me with a computer problem I charge but on a 'No Fix No Fee basis.  If the problem isn't fixed to their satisfaction there is no fee.  If a client can't afford  my rates then I help them for nothing. 

Do you?

You also seem to assume that if someone 'disengages' with the world to seek personal improvement in whatever form that may take, that they will remain permanenly disengaged.  

I have met many seeking enlightenment but I don't recall anyone saying they were doing so so they could withdraw from the world.  On the contrary most seem to be seeking so they could be more effective dealing with day to day issues, be more effective in society but live life to the full while doing so.

I'm not even sure I've ever heard enlightenment referred to as an escape from life. Teachings that I've come in contact with advocate spending time in the quiet, on your own but I can't recall any suggesting you should stay that way indefinitely.

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Mike I have no problem with the practice of 'disengaging' with the world for a period in order to get myself settled and sorted out before I attempt to help others.  Some might refer to it as a break or a vacation.

This merely asserts that disengagement is the path to “enlightenment' and this promotes self-absorption as the means of self-enhancement. The “enlightenment” you speak of is marketed as a product, an outcome, that if you follow these rules you to can have it too. And once you 'get' it, eternal life will be yours. The problem is, how do you know you 'got' it and what about everyone else? Do you just leave then all behind?

Nor do I have a problem with people charging others for their services.  If someone comes to me with a computer problem I charge but on a 'No Fix No Fee basis.  If the problem isn't fixed to their satisfaction there is no fee.  If a client can't afford  my rates then I help them for nothing.

I like that, “No Fix, No Fee.” Yet, I wonder how many master-guru-teachers offer such a guarantee? Like a full refund if you don't get the promised “enlightenment.” Not many I suppose. Too bad.

Do you?

Andrew you seem to be mixing apples and oranges in your attempts to vilify me. I do not promise anything nor even imply any intangible reward like “enlightenment.” However, I do work pro bono extensively, particularly with children. In addition, I work with relationships, often having entire families, extended and nuclear, crammed in my office. They will find their “enlightenment” together, not apart and not disengaged through some solitary “hero's journey.”

You also seem to assume that if someone 'disengages' with the world to seek personal improvement in whatever form that may take, that they will remain permanenly disengaged.

The world is disengaged, bro. Hell, just look around you and you will see the signs of intense self-absorption and me, me, me. It stands to reason that such egotistical perspectives will be adopted by religious and spiritual ideologies in order to collect converts. You may not remain permanently disengaged, but the world requires your engagement NOW, not later when you feel you're sufficiently “enlightened” enough.

I have met many seeking enlightenment but I don't recall anyone saying they were doing so so they could withdraw from the world.  On the contrary most seem to be seeking so they could be more effective dealing with day to day issues, be more effective in society but live life to the full while doing so.

My friend, if you meet individuals “seeking enlightenment,” then make no mistake, their not seeking it for YOU. This merely reinforces the paradigm of individualism and it is that which is sucking us dry and taking us closer to impending doom.

Does your enlightenment help me, the unenlightened, deal more effectively with the world. No??? Than what good is it? And that's the point exactly, all these so-called enlightened ones and you'd think we'd see the world consciously evolving to a more loving collective ideation. Nope. In fact, what we see is the world coming ever more precipitously closer to self-destruction and collapse, regardless of all the cenuries of wisdom teachings.

Teachings that I've come in contact with advocate spending time in the quiet, on your own but I can't recall any suggesting you should stay that way indefinitely.

hmmm…yes, but when to come out and engage, that's the question…

Unfortunately, we have monasteries, ashrams, etc,  that have always epitomised the true seeker. In other words, the more sequestered and partitioned off from society, the more likely you will awaken to god. This is the paradigm found in the world and most likely you can't employ what the world teaches to transcend the world, since it will only invest you more deeply in the games of the 'world.'

But my only point, Aus, is if your ideological practices, learned from the past, result in ever greater disengagement from the world in the present, you might wish to seek another practice.

But, I'm not a teacher and thus, have no credibility. Best to just ignore the ravings of a “madman.”

Hahaa!
mikeS

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Andrew, we explored this whole issue about time away in silence while you were away from Gaia, I think. Mike presented the above position while most of the others in the discussion including myself agreed with you.

Love,

Nicole

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Nicole, you spent time talking about time away in silence while I was doing time away in silence… how neat is that?

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Yah! That is so cool, Andrew!

Mike, if you are happy drinking alone, that is great. 

Hugs,

Nicole

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Mike presented the above position while most of the others in the discussion including myself agreed with you.

Ah yes….poor sad old mikeS…. he jusdongetit…

It's okay though, because when I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself….

I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
You know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

Every morning just before breakfast
I don't want no coffee or tea
Just me and good buddy Wiser
That's all I ever need
'Cause I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

The other night I laid sleeping
And I woke from a terrible dream
So I caught up my pal Jack Daniel's
And his partner Jimmy Beam
And we drank alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

The other day I got invited to a party
But I stayed home instead
Just me and my pal Johnny Walker
And his brothers Black and Red
And we drank alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

My whole family done give up on me
And it makes me feel oh so bad
The only one who will hang out with me
Is my dear Old Grand-Dad
And we drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

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Oh…I'll have a beer with ya mikeS as it might just add some extra dazzle to the pending “pissing contest”!

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Yo Denim!

I'm afraid I must pass on the distilled hops and barley, due to a mild wheat allergy.

However, I will be happy to join you with a jug of vino, which also promotes an extreme capacity to partake of joyful streams of 'piss.''

Bottoms up!
mikeS

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Bummer on the hops thing mikeS but nonetheless I will take up that “jug” of vino with you any day my friend…but Sundays!

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Oh how sad!!!

Sundays are my only drinking days.

: )
mikeS

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Hey Denim, no wheat allergies here!!!

I drink on days starting with T - Today and Tomorrow.

(From a land downunder - the country that brews the best beer in the world)

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Mike, I seem to remember you saying that you meditate. Do I remember correctly? I am glad you have no issue with meditation. Meditation can be many things - walking meditation, driving meditation and so on, and lead us deeper into engagement with each other.

Love,

Nicole

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Nicole,

Yes I may have termed it “meditation,” in the traditional sense. However, my time with with spiritual meditation ended quite some time ago. Now I just tend to sit still and be quiet.

Have you ever wondered why so many who meditate feel compelled to choose and ideology to go with it?

I do…
mikeS

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One thing I've noticed about this particular discussion is  the hazards of making generlizations. Espeically about things we often mention we do not study because we see no validity in them.
I can read a book on physcology and watch a physcologist work, but when do I become a physcologist? When I have read all the right books and taken the tests of all the right teachers and paid the correct amount of money to an orginization that was granted the right to hand out a certificate, that was deemed by a mass of it's peers to provide a valid education? Or is it when I begin to pratice the art of physcology on others. Who decides what a sucessful physcologist is? Is it the man himself, his peers, his paitents? What measures of sucess do we have to judge what is a valid way of thinking, doing and acting?

Certainly there IS a need for peace and understanding, people should act now, as you suggest Mike. Begin engaging immediately, but willy nilly engagement seems like a bad idea, just like suggesting people should all start praticing medacine to fight the swine flu.

You can see the need in your own mystic feild of study, the requirement to spend time to become “enlightened” to it's ways. Praticing, engaging with gurus of the field, building slowly, allowing for  mistakes to be made, structuring their mind in a way that's required to do it in a positive and proper manner.

As well, are there also not many vast and various gurus and paths, all argueing and evolving their views and ideals on a daily basis? Is it not also an organic process filled with flaws, misteps and mistakes? Are they not also all searching in many vast and various manners and often conflicting, and improper ways? Why do you not scrap your studies due to it's flaws and misteps? It's arguements and inconsistancies?

Because, despite it's inperfection, good is gleened. Every day, advances as well as mistakes are made. Perhaps, many of the studies and avenues traveled will lead the reasearchers no were, but if they get even ONE  glint of helpful hopeful information from it, the deem it a sucess.

You have spent your own time medatating, in books reading, in tests taking, on quiet contemplation, working over a problem, doing little to nothing that has to do with engaging. You see the nessecity in this, but can't allow other's their own because you do not see the coorilation.

The problem is you see a person meditating and you see them wasting that time sitting. You must KNOW that is not the truth of the situation, because people explain it again an again. Meditation IS important. It is argueably one of the most important things a human can do. It is facing yourself. It is fighting the demons the plauge you and urge you to do all the terrible things you claim to dislike in the world. It's looking in the eye of your ego, giving it NO distractions, and telling it, You have no more power of me. I see you for what you are.

Endlessly engaging gives it constant shelter, plenty of places for it to hide, ways for it to avoid you having to face it. The feelings of dispair that you feel when you listen to Pink Floyd, alone in your room, are the feelings of facing down your ego, your demon, and loosing. It is allowing yourself to feel helpless, unimportant, less than you know you really are, and in that moment dispairing more because you ENJOY that feeling, because it's easy and simple and demands nothing of you. You can not fail if you do not try. Just give up, give in, and enthorpy, stagnate.

The ego is sociopathic, and if you believe you are your body, it is only logical to be sociopathic. Accumulate your positives at any cost, nothing matters in relation to you as long as  you can get away with it with out repercussions. This is the additude that is destorying the world. The belief that there  is no connection between anything. There is only what you can get away with and what you can't.

The engagement you preach, is required to try and teach people they are NOT that. That there is an interconnectedness, a relation between all humanity. To help illistrate the idea that your actions have profound consiquinces. People can NEVER make the two images of their reality work though. You can't believe you are the physical, and not in some ways believe your ego is right. If people can't face their egos and say, physical pain does hurt, but I can get through it, outside objects are not responsable for my happiness, I am, that my inner self is more powerful, than the outer world that bleeds into it, then you are chained to your ego the way a drowning man is chained to a rock at the bottom of a river.

Engagement is the dissembling of information to others to allow them a broader perspective of their world, to reach inside their ego shell and touch something beyond the simple physical reality.

Mike, there are different levels of 'lightworkers' as you call us, as there are different levels of all classifications of people. Lump them together and paint a picture off of generlizations, but as is always the case in such indightments, there are going to be those it just does not apply to, and cases that are just outside your realm of understanding as of yet. Your problem is, you have fallen into the trap of seeing any people as static. No one is static, everyone and everything is evolving, you can't believe that a light worker could bridge the gap between your logic and a spiritual world, because you've never seen it.

Time isn't up though, the only constant, is change.

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JustPadric - well said.

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Padric,

Certainly there IS a need for peace and understanding, people should act now, as you suggest Mike. Begin engaging immediately, but willy nilly engagement seems like a bad idea, just like suggesting people should all start praticing medacine to fight the swine flu.

People aren't all doctors, but all people are engaged in relationships (even doctors fighting swine flu). It has nothing to do with world peace and everything to do with peace in your own little microcosm of the world. If you want world peace start in your own home. This message is as old as the hills and really not that difficult.

I wonder why it is so strenuously resisted.

You can see the need in your own mystic feild of study, the requirement to spend time to become “enlightened” to it's ways. Praticing, engaging with gurus of the field, building slowly, allowing for  mistakes to be made, structuring their mind in a way that's required to do it in a positive and proper manner.

Once again, everyone is in relationships. Now seek for depth in the relationships you already experience. No need for teachers. No need for special fields of study. learn from them, that's what they're there for. Seek the value in others in order to value your 'self' and become a “mystic.”

As well, are there also not many vast and various gurus and paths, all argueing and evolving their views and ideals on a daily basis? Is it not also an organic process filled with flaws, misteps and mistakes? Are they not also all searching in many vast and various manners and often conflicting, and improper ways? Why do you not scrap your studies due to it's flaws and misteps? It's arguements and inconsistancies?

My “field,” as you call it, has nothing to do with my relationships, which I will never scrap. I do not promote psychology in any way. the only time my work is brought up is when others frame it as you are now. I do not advocate relationships because psychology claims it valuable. In fact, psychology is as individually oriented as spirituality. They are becoming one and the same.

Meditation IS important. It is argueably one of the most important things a human can do. It is facing yourself. It is fighting the demons the plauge you and urge you to do all the terrible things you claim to dislike in the world. It's looking in the eye of your ego, giving it NO distractions, and telling it, You have no more power of me. I see you for what you are.

Yes that is, indeed, arguable. We are here to join together in loving relationships. Of course, the ego has distorted that message and made it its own, so it seeks to join with itself.
Look outside your head and SEE the demons made in reflection of all of us. Look in the eyes of those you have professed to love and SEE your ego clearly reflected back. There is nothing the ego fears more than other people as that which could annihilate it through love. This is what we all fear more than death itself. This is why meditation will always be more valuable to an ego in fear of love.
The conflicts the ego experiences are always experienced in relation to others because the ego was formed in relation to others. You will find your 'self' through others as they will find themselves through you.

The ego is sociopathic, and if you believe you are your body, it is only logical to be sociopathic.

Quite true. So why would you think a sociopath can heal itself through self-absorption. More likely the sociopath will surrender it sociopathic traits through experiencing the healing power of deeply relating to others.

If people can't face their egos and say, physical pain does hurt, but I can get through it, outside objects are not responsable for my happiness, I am, that my inner self is more powerful, than the outer world that bleeds into it, then you are chained to your ego the way a drowning man is chained to a rock at the bottom of a river.

You are not alone in that world and the people who surround you are not “outside objects.” Your localized consciousness is part of a much larger well of awareness than any localized consciousness can realise alone. Join with others in realizing it.

Mike, there are different levels of 'lightworkers' as you call us, as there are different levels of all classifications of people.

This is interesting, because I made no particular reference to any one specific person, yet so many find it was directed toward them. Hmmm…..

Your problem is, you have fallen into the trap of seeing any people as static. No one is static, everyone and everything is evolving, you can't believe that a light worker could bridge the gap between your logic and a spiritual world, because you've never seen it.

“Static”? no my friend that's a misrepresentation. Relationships are anything BUT static. Yet, any depth in relating is statically avoided. And please make no judgments as to what I've seen or experienced, because they will most certainly be erroneous.
As a matter of fact, I have experienced the healing power of relationship when no one individual was idolized as superior to another and none subordinate and both engaged deeply through that equality of spirit.

Enjoy your meditation since it is beneficial in calming the savage beast (ego) that fears intimacy and deeply relating with others, because of the loss of the self.

Ha! but I'm just saying….
mikeS

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People aren't all doctors, but all people are engaged in relationships (even doctors fighting swine flu). It has nothing to do with world peace and everything to do with peace in your own little microcosm of the world. If you want world peace start in your own home. This message is as old as the hills and really not that difficult.

I wonder why it is so strenuously resisted.
What evidence from any of these discussions have you had to say that anyone is resisting the idea that people engaging is required to help bring about world peace? No, I think we all agree this is required, but the methods and the approaches are what is dissimular.


Once again, everyone is in relationships. Now seek for depth in the relationships you already experience. No need for teachers. No need for special fields of study. learn from them, that's what they're there for. Seek the value in others in order to value your 'self' and become a “mystic.”
 
As I mentioned before, the idea that a man who is required by his employment to pass the tests of teachers, before he can begin working with others to help them through their problems of engagement seems a bit hypocritical to then be telling others they do not need to do the same because you do not recognize nor believe in their own beliefs about a system.

I think most people who spend much time reading your opionions come to understand pretty quickly, you seem to believe there is no spirit and no energy that persists after death. Unfortunately, there is no middle ground for us, for what you believe and what  I believe can not be reconciled, it is apparent no amount of evidence, logical reasoning, or arguements I can muster will change your mind in my direction and the inverse can be said for me to your direction. We could debate until we are blue in the face.  All I can say is I have seen many of your discussions and interpritations of reality and  though I have mulled them over, I personally find them flawed and lacking. Despite my best efforts to explain why I find them lacking, there is no convincing you. Such is life.
The Dalai Lama had made an intresting obersvation to a physcologist who was interviewing him for a book the physcologist was writing called “The Art of Happiness”, based off of some of the Dalai Lama's wisdom and teachings. He had mentioned that there were many issues that a physcologist tries to help patients with that just seem to have no solutions, phobias that spring up from no where, unexplained symptoms that have no source etc. One who believes in reincarnation could much more easily explain some of these problems, and for the physcologist, it is like a man searching for an answer in the wrong room. He does not believe their are any other rooms, and so he will never find the true answer.

I believe life is full of these other rooms, that our modern day life just has not found. This does not mean that they don't exsist, and it doesn't mean that a person can not reason that they are there. People often say there is no proof that there is no life after death, but what they should say is there is no proof of life after death that they can believe. I think this is an important distinction.


The ego is sociopathic, and if you believe you are your body, it is only logical to be sociopathic.

Quite true. So why would you think a sociopath can heal itself through self-absorption. More likely the sociopath will surrender it sociopathic traits through experiencing the healing power of deeply relating to others.
 
This is an opinion only. The point I was trying to illistrate, is that a view were a person dies and nothing of them persists after should be sociopathic logically. To deny that with such a world view would be insanity. What reason does a person have who will die at any moment have to be anything but completely and utterly selfish? What reason does he have to care about a future that exisists after his short life? What ever he was will be gone, what ever he did will not ever matter to him again.

There is no healing a cosmic organic accident of momentary awareness, your ego. No, those who believe as you do, that this is the only life they get, I believe, are living more truthful lives than you when they are sociopathic. I am not by any means advocating sociopathy, but I can  only do so because I believe that I persist after my death. Survive as long as possible, by any means nessicary, and suck as much enjoyment out of your surroundings as you can at every possible moment.

I, like you, often play devil's advocate. Often my words are confused for my convitions, actually, they are expressed to prove the opposite, the obserdity of other's convictions. I use them to find the deeper convictions that only appear when people are defending what they believe in.

This is interesting, because I made no particular reference to any one specific person, yet so many find it was directed toward them. Hmmm…..
 
This sort of comment for example is baiting me. I'm not so easily dragged into emotional responses or verbal jousting. I dislike these games of point and counter point and they are ment to rile up supposedly hidden emotions and thought processes exposing the 'weak underbelly' of my postion. While you might attach negative connotations to the term “light worker”, I don't, nor does it bother me to know that you do. I was making the point in this sentence because you were making base generalizations  about a broad group of people based off negative facts gleened from one individual here or there and applying them to the entire group as a whole. Something I've noticed you do quite a bit. This is also what I was refuring to when I said I see you seeing people as “static”. You are not giving these people the credit of humanity.

Most of the things you express I agree with. It's not the need for engagement that I argue with you, but the reasons why we need to engage. I have never feared deeply engaging with anyone I meet, it's hard to, when you believe they are just a different version of you after all. The hardship I have, is getting past their own insecurities, idiosyncrasies and (for lack of a better term) crazinesses. Often our outlooks differ radically, as your's and mine does, and so the common ground between us, which allows us to relate is thin. I begrudge no one their world view, I have no agendas to push (though if I think I might be able to offer an outlook or some advice to make people's lives happier I will do so if I think they might accept it), but I DO enjoy chatting about what I believe, and am never surprised to find my world view does not match anyone else's, these things seem to be like fingerprints or snowflakes.

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No, I think we all agree this is required, but the methods and the approaches are what is dissimular.

Make relationship a top priority and no methods or approaches are needed. Problem is we fail to adequately engage in our own microcosmic relationships, but then lament the absence of peace in the world and blame those who feel are the cause. We seek to worship and idolize the guru  or the guru's ideology, all the while our personal relationships crumble to dust.

As I mentioned before, the idea that a man who is required by his employment to pass the tests of teachers, before he can begin working with others to help them through their problems of engagement seems a bit hypocritical to then be telling others they do not need to do the same because you do not recognize nor believe in their own beliefs about a system.

Relationships are as natural as breathing and no one taught you how to breathe. In fact, most likely if we could transcend our all our “learning” we could return to what we do best and most likely were created for.

I think most people who spend much time reading your opionions come to understand pretty quickly, you seem to believe there is no spirit and no energy that persists after death.

Well, it's probably best not to speak for others. However, if you feel that I “seem to believe there is no spirit and no energy that persists after death” then you would be incorrect. I believe fully in the potential of awakening to a transcendent experience not at all attached to this 'world.' However, I merely posit that such an experience will be between people or, as I framed it in a previous post, finding the space between minds, rather than the space between thoughts, which requires two or more to engage with and encounter. This is why I negate the teacher/guru function as unnecessary and meditation as useless in that endeavor (although it has much value for other reasons).

All I can say is I have seen many of your discussions and interpritations of reality and  though I have mulled them over, I personally find them flawed and lacking. Despite my best efforts to explain why I find them lacking, there is no convincing you.

Why is it you feel the need to convince me of anything? I have no need to convince you. Why is it you need to be right and prove me wrong? Incredible creative ideas emerge from the pit of disagreement.
I speak my mind as do you and I'm quite comfortable with being odd man out. Nevertheless, I have the integrity to stand by what I believe, come what may, and I believe that these solitary paths of seeking enlightenment are greatly erroneous and even destructive since they perpetuate disengagement. You can become enlightened and still save the world, but you can't do it alone. I merely posit the need to heal the self through healing another.

The Dalai Lama had made an intresting obersvation to a physcologist who was interviewing him….

Uh…I'm not sure why you continue to reference a “psychologist” because I'm not a psychologist and I never stated that I was.

No, those who believe as you do, that this is the only life they get, I believe, are living more truthful lives than you when they are sociopathic.

Once again, this is an incorrect assertion concerning my beliefs. I don't believe this is the only life there is and in not one post in any thread, in the past two yrs I've been posting here, have I ever made such a statement. So I'm not sure how you've come upon it. However, I don't believe that one should seek to disengage from this existential experience, in order to seek to transcend it. No, the transcending will be in the engagement.

I, like you, often play devil's advocate. Often my words are confused for my convitions, actually, they are expressed to prove the opposite, the obserdity of other's convictions. I use them to find the deeper convictions that only appear when people are defending what they believe in.

So you seek to prove the absurdity of others convictions? I have no such goal. Once again. I'm quite clear in my “convictions.” Meditation has wonderful benefits and can calm and deeply relax one. This is important if the goal is engagement. Problem is, the goal usually becomes more self-absorption and this is counter-productive to the enlightenment that, not just one, but all could potentially experience. The greatest joy will be a shared joy.

This sort of comment for example is baiting me. I'm not so easily dragged into emotional responses or verbal jousting. I dislike these games of point and counter point and they are ment to rile up supposedly hidden emotions and thought processes exposing the 'weak underbelly' of my postion.

Actually you're giving me too much credit for deviousness. I have no use for emotional responses. However, point-counterpoint can often lead to some very creative ideas if done respectfully. I have experienced that in other discussions.

While you might attach negative connotations to the term “light worker”, I don't,

Only to those who seek to spiritually bypass existential 'reality' through spiritualized practices based on poorly interpreted ancient ideology.

It's not the need for engagement that I argue with you, but the reasons why we need to engage.

For me that's easy: to improve the world so we can transcend it…together as ONE.

Often our outlooks differ radically, as your's and mine does, and so the common ground between us, which allows us to relate is thin.

It's probably not as thin as you might think. I have bridged very large chasms with others, in which I initially felt that possibility was hopeless. There are many things you have expressed that I fully agreed with in the past.

(though if I think I might be able to offer an outlook or some advice to make people's lives happier I will do so if I think they might accept it),

Agreed! My sentiments exactly.
mikeS

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Argh!

Mike, I don't know where to start with this.

1. I hear echos in your arguments from those that the early practitioners of “scientific” medicine brought against natural medicine workers.

2. Two great schools of philosophy exist in the world, one epitomized by Greek thought, the other by Vedic thought. The Greek philosophers pursued studies of the world in order to better humanity. The Vedic philosophers discovered that they couldn't understand the world unless they understood the perceiving apparatus, including our minds.

The mature practice of meditation departs from the Vedic tradition. What it's practitioners, including Siddhartha, discovered is that when one turns deeply enough inwards, and learns to still the “inner dialog”, one discovers a great oneness.

In other words, we start to hear each others' voices in our head. We realize that we do have a spirit, and that it is eternal and joined to the all.

In other words, the Vedic perspective is that turning outwards and turning inwards gets you to the same place. Is just that in turning inwards, we do a lot less damage to the ecosphere.

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Trichronos

The mature practice of meditation departs from the Vedic tradition. What it's practitioners, including Siddhartha, discovered is that when one turns deeply enough inwards, and learns to still the “inner dialog”, one discovers a great oneness.

How can we know what “Siddhartha” discovered? What we can know is what a million interpretations of Siddhartha discovered. There is no pure ideology and time tends to dilute the message.

In other words, the Vedic perspective is that turning outwards and turning inwards gets you to the same place. Is just that in turning inwards, we do a lot less damage to the ecosphere.

I would disagree with this because, in turning “inwards” most disengage and disengagement breeds estrangement. It is our estrangement from one another that is destroying our home. Strangers have little care for anything but themselves.

Stay off the mountain top and dwell deeply in the valley.
mikeS

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Jesus Fucking Christ…*

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Uh…no Starlight,

Jesus did not fuck Christ.

God was an immaculate conception in the mind of man.
mikeS

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lmao…

ur correct Mike…God first appeared, miraculously as a voice in Abram's head…ROTFLMFAO…and Tah Dah…God was born…

all this meditating shit…is like praying to the non-existent God…imm…

get up off your meditating praying asses and do something else…or not…

come up with something new…instead of selling the same shit a different way…or not…

the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results…


which might mean that i am insane cuz here i am…lol

just saying…*

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Are you implying that God is the product of a schizophrenic Jew!!!???!!!

Why that's…. blasphemy!!

Ooooh….you'll burn in hell for that, young lady!

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lmao…hell?  whutsthat?  rotf…

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Well, that was a rather curious exchange

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Just the usual product of our “Inner Madness

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So having finished reading through all of this, Mike's position seems to boil down to:

“I don't need a guru, so you don't need a guru”

“There is only one path to world salvation, and that is the one that starts with local relation.”

Now, if that makes sense, “Can't we all just get along?” Instead of criticizing different approaches, maybe we should suggest ways that they can be enhanced?

For example, I know from personal experience that we're not going to get there if we don't include other forms of life. Disconnecting from human social relation is a critical aspect of contacting and negotiating with those personalities.

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Welcome Trichronos!

So having finished reading through all of this, Mike's position seems to boil down to:
“I don't need a guru, so you don't need a guru”

Oh no…a “guru” is necessary. However, not in the conventional sense of someone having proprietary knowledge or knowing something you don't know (truth). What most often fail to understand is that what is transferred or transmitted from guru to disciple, is not from the guru, but from the deep ground of the relationship that the two engage in (depending on the intimate depth of that relating).

I merely posit that one need not seek out the traditional “guru”(or be spiritual) to experience that ground of Being through and with another. The ego has formulated the guru transmission as something of value, missing the fact that it is within the intimate depth of the relationship that value comes.

“There is only one path to world salvation, and that is the one that starts with local relation.”

Well stated! I agree totally. The only way to realize the non-local consciousness is to join with other localized minds.

Brilliant!!!
mikeS

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Inner Madness!  I am feeling entirely mad tonight!  As if longed for stars have come home to my heart.  Feeling like I have traveled, though I have always been here.

Nothing has happened, no affection, no intimacy I see.  Only unfulfilled hopes feel like springtime.  And I have became drunk with darkness -

I am sure it will pass!

I hope all is well tonight!
with love,
Cheyenne

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Yee Haa Cheyenne!!!

It is fantastic and exciting to be ALIVE, nothing can stop the evolution of peoples minds to realise the infinite possibilities that come with the gradual awakening to recognise the glimmer of truth, like the dim glow in the Eastern sky announcing the forthcoming dawn.

Eventually everyone will realise the astounding reality of their being, free from the bondage of man-made philosophies, religions and stifling beliefs.

It can't be any other way.

Does it get any better than this???

Totally mad and loving it!!!

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love you che and Andrew!

Trichronos, I am with you all the way

hugs

nicole

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we do love each other, Jenny. Don't worry, we tend to get really intense in here but it is all good. And I am not a bit sane, not normally or ever! I just pass for sane lol

Much love,

Nicole

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yeah, inner madness here foreal…welcome Jenny…yeah, i b causing trouble where ever i go…just like to make certain all sides are being represented…are at least as many as are known…lol*

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Andrew!!!  Mad and loving it!!!

so what has captured you?  Was it a fragrance?  Or the glimpse of fate?

The warm air in my belly caught me! Reminding me I am not the image..
So I made my bed under the moonlight, and cover myself with it, drown in it!
I can hear this flute of soft, delicate sounds playing in my heart, if I am very quiet.  Even the smell of a distance flower, I have never been able to identify.

Maybe we are in the garden of the gods.  Oh, my heart is drenched in love - sometimes drunk and sometimes heavy.

Well, I have a few hours to bask in the moonlight!

And send you ALL my love!
Cheyenne

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And good to meet YOU, Jenny! -You have five too! …I love it when you only have to invite one person to your birthday party!…..

And always a big hug to you, Nicole!!!!….

with love,
Cheyenne

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Cheyenne every time we have a weekend and they all come home it turns into an impromptu party. And I do love it. My eldest son is getting married next weekend so the clan will all be together and all excited and looking forward to it.

Nicole so relieved to hear you are passing for sane because thats what I do so feel I'm in good company. 

And hi Star. Great to see you out and about. 

Now I have to go to work. Bye

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I think it's more than just the two of us, Jenny, maybe we will get others to admit they are just passing for sane too! LOL

Have a good day at work,

Love,

Nicole

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to hell with sanity…insanity is more funner…gol*

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The irony is, only through each other is there even insanity.  When I see you, and you see me, and our realities don't agree, that's insanity. Whose reality is right, and whose is wrong? Popular vote, forceful personality, rational experimentation and deductive logic generally decide.  

No two realities match up, so really, we are all insane, like it or not, because no one sees the world quite the way you do.

What we are in the business of here, isn't really searching for sanity, but finding a way to make our insanities mesh up in a way that doesn't hurt anyone else, or make them feel bad.

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What we are in the business of here, isn't really searching for sanity, but finding a way to make our insanities mesh up in a way that doesn't hurt anyone else, or make them feel bad.

Excellent point.

Yet, I'm not so sure the mass of mankind believes that they all participate in collective insanity. Maybe first they need be convinced of their insanity and then they'll no longer take it all so seriously anymore. If we could all be convinced that it's all a game, then losing wouldn't be so damn catastrophic.

I dunno, just saying…
mikeS

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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

I can't make anyone be or do anything. I can only be or do, and hope, that by the example of my life, they might see some validity in it for themselves as well.

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there is a big difference in hurting someone's ego, or hurting someone literally…most of us need to grow the fuck up…half the time we don't have a clue as to what we believe, much less what we are saying, and we contradict ourselves all the time on these boards, and most of what we say is not honest, it is a parroting of what we have been conditioned to believe…so any kind of whack upside an egoic uninformed head to make one wake the fuck up, is all fair in humanity's game of love and war…but targeting someone just for the sake of hurting them, whether it be through emotional or physical abuse, is way not cool…sometimes arrogance needs to be cut down with a sword of truth…and sometimes ignorance needs to be called what it is…*

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They're coming to take me away heh heh
They're coming to take me away hah hah
To the funny farm where life is……. Hang on!

Did I miss something Starlight?  Is someone being a bully here?

They're coming to take me away heh heh
They're coming to take……

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S OK Andryew, I'll visit you at the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time.

I have recently been doing some really underhand stuff. I have been talking with some young mums that I am supposed to be counselling because they have post natal depression and I have let them in on THE real SECRET. 

Post natal depression is largely due to the following: 
1. Lack of sleep to the point where you halucinate because the baby cries all night.
2. lack of sex because you are too tired due to lack of sleep and you 're supposed to wait 6 weeks after giving birth.
3. Lack of a grown up to talk because you talk to a baby all day and your partner is working overtime to help pay for nappies and all your friends avoid you because you are tired, boring (all you talk about is the baby) and you dont come out and get pissed and have fun anymore.
4. to top it off somebody told them they have a mental health problem so they think they are insane.

Who wouldnt be depressed and suicidal? 

So now they dont feel as bad because I told them there is nothing wrong with them that a good nights sleep and a few days break from babies …. and its all temporary. 

I'm ok because I've been a parent for 35 years and my youngest just hit 18 so NOW I can start living, (told you it was temporary) except I cant sleep because old age is catching up and I gotta get up and pee 3 times a night.

BUT I can pass for sane!!! hahahaha (she cackles as she scratches the huge hairy wart on the side of her nose and straightens her black pointy hat.)

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In addition, JP,  My father always says “you can lead a horse to water but you cant make them think.”

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Can't put brains on vegetables.

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“…half the time we don't have a clue as to what we believe, much less what we are saying, and we contradict ourselves all the time on these boards, and most of what we say is not honest, it is a parroting of what we have been conditioned to believe…so any kind of whack upside an egoic uninformed head to make one wake the fuck up…”

HA! Excellent description of the reality of the situation, which has been the reality of the situation since 'time' began and most likely will not change anytime soon.

So let's deny that it's all bullsheit and continue to make compromises with bullsheit so that we continue to play out our roles in the Theatre of the Absurd.

We just need to stick to our conventional ideas of self-salvation and individual “enlightenment.”

Hallelujah Brother and Sisters! Say Jeeeeeeeeezussss!! Let me hear you say it, Jeeeeeeezussss!
mikeS

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lmao…(i'll be your cheer leader any time Mike, not that need one…*)