What is our True Nature?

The discussions about prayer and meditation and a guru have evolved into questions and contemplations about what we are…so I thought it appropriate to start another thread in that direction, as the other two are becoming a little unfocused…

anyways, this should get us started…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

“True Nature”?

So if I experience my “True Nature” does that automatically make everything else my false nature? This type of dichotomy seems a result of dualism.

Seems to me there can never be such an experience…

…although I suppose one could make such an interpretation

But the split immediately negates itself by asserting past/present, before/after…
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

I am just alluding to tapping into that joy of being that is often experienced as human, and making an opening for beauty and wonder, as to have a more fullfilled living experience in the here in now.

I am not arguing nonduality…this is ridiculous to me, but when we remove what prevents us from living more freely in the moment, we can experience such joy of being in our worlds as well as sharing that with others.

I am convinced that it is our very nature to feel that bliss and joy of being.  That it is as natural as breathing.  It is very magical, and yet it is naturally so.  

make sense?

Re: What is our True Nature?

For Me, the answer lies within Nature, and I explore it thru Tribal Ways - Native Spirituality, and Nature to Teach Me, silently. Dual ? Non-dual ? I would say that it is whatever You need it to be, for Nature has dual and non-dual facets to it.

I think that discovering our True Nature, is a Process, that needs to start by studying nature, and Our place within Nature.  We have lost that, thru Being too Civilized, and We need to reconnect with Nature, to figure out Who We are in relation to Nature.

Well, there You go…attack away, mates..!!…heheheheh  

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hey Torch,

I love Nature, and the Tribal Ways.  So much we can learn from their ways of being and their natural love and respect for the land and what it gives.

I don't think that it necessarily teaches silently, although it can and does.  I am sure you are aware of the drumming and dancing and making noises in chant together.  And that would be another thing that I would point out, that it is not only with Nature that we have lost our connection, but also with other human being.  So discovering our True Nature is discovering this aspect in all things and beings, even in the very land.

I recently enjoyed a book, The Spell of the Sensuous, by David Abram, that pointed to this very thing.

It was so interesting, in that it related that we have lost our voice and connection to the land through language actually.  

The ancient Hebrew did not have vowels, and so, there was a participation in languaging.  The breath vowel chosen would change the words meaning in a drastic way sometimes, but it enabled humans to experience the language and co-create its meaning.

The Greek with its vowels changed all that, and so something was lost within languaging, however, it can still be opened up, b/c any thing that limits also can open.

We have closed our being in relation to Space and Time and civilization has played a role, but we can still connect no matter where we are, b/c there is always open sky and space to open up to.  It has a very freeing effect.

Thank you Torch for bringing this Native Spirituality aspect to light, as I had temporarily forgotten all the related information in Abram's book to experiencing True Nature…

I might add, that one's true nature is a connection to the essence of all of being, again, it includes nature, but it also includes everything else as well.

love in joy*

Re: What is our True Nature?

The First Peace, which is the most important,
is that which comes within the Souls of People
 when They realize Their Relationship,
 Their Oneness with the Universe and all Its Powers,
 and when They realize that at the Center
 of the Universe dwells the Great Spirit,
 and that this Center is really Everywhere,
 It is within Each of Us.”

Black Elk - Oglala Sioux

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hey Torch, I would love to hear what this means to you, in YOUR words.

I don't have a clue as to what the 'first peace' is, or why it is most important, do you?  I wonder if he means that it happens within the Souls as in plural.  Like the entire tribe realizes this during say a dance or something that they are all partipating in?  I am guessing here.  Interesting though how they interpreted things.  It is calling the GS the center and stating it is within each of us, so actually he is saying that each IS the GS.

Re: What is our True Nature?

An entire apple tree is initially contained in the seed.
Visions are initially contained in the idea.

 If you trace the path of a blooming flower backwards,
 it goes from the blooming flower back to a bud,
 back to a stem, back to a seed.

 So it is in the way of knowledge.
Often we will experience a hunch,
 or a feeling that we are supposed to do something.

At first it may not make any sense. This is the seed stage.
 Once we start to investigate, more gets revealed.
 As more is revealed, the more knowledge we get.
 This is the way the Great Spirit guides us.

Re: What is our True Nature?

I think our true nature is in flux Starlight and depends on all manner of variables - attitude, health, state of mind and so on, at any particular time.

Re: What is our True Nature?

Andrew I have experienced my joy of being, which is what I identify as my true nature, when I have been in good health and sick.  I also am able to relax into it from a place of anger or frustration, and even physical pain.

I am very familiar with my own tn…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

I too experience what you describe as your True Nature as an ongoing experience Starlight but can you be sure it is your TN and not a response to a conditioned belief such as positive mental attitude? or an optomistic outlook?

Re: What is our True Nature?

Yes Andrew, I am sure.

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hey Torch, can we trace it further back than the seed?*

Re: What is our True Nature?

The First Peace is the Feeling that washes over You when You feel the Spirit wash over you, like a cool wind.  The recognition that You are connected to awesome power, like a cloud droplet is connected to a great mass of clouds, whose power is awesome, and in intimate connection with You, at that moment.

Peace is the Classic response to Absolute Truth. You are blown away by the Power, and the Reality  of the Truth Manifested in Connection with You.
You cant deny It.  You can feel it.

Beyond the Seed ? Sure. Inside the Seed is a Seed. Call it a spark of God.  We meditate to it when We meditate, and that spark is the connection to the creation force of the Universe, God, Matrix, Great Spirit, Buddha, or whatever You want to call it.

The Sparks connect in an invisible Matrix, to each Other, and So connect, like bits in a Computer in a Network, in an Internet, in a Universe.
At least that is one method to describe it, but it is elemental and primeval.

Lakota would say, “We are all together, We are all One with the Great Spirit, and Unci, Mother Earth, and the Sun and the Moon and the Stars”.

Same Thing. All Connected. What is done to One, is done to All.
Self is an Illusion caused by not feeling connected to All.
Love is the connection to All.  

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hey Torch…thank you for replying…

I can feel that washing over any time I choose to, so is this first peace actually something that is outside of my abilities or conscious awareness of being to control or make it happen?  

Is the actual connect to something other than myself or is it the realization that I am of the same essence, or is it just the ability of thought within the flow of mind?

I am not certain what you mean here by Absolute Truth, nor can I find any evidence to support that it really does exist…

I am blown away by a beautiful sunset, a rainbow, my own being and the ecstasy I feel in just being alive…the joy of being…the wonder of creation and energy…the miracle of a tiny violet…a blade of grass…a babys smile…a tender i love you…

spark of God?  like the big bang kinda thing?  

Yes, I have heard the computer metaphor before…

The problem with calling it a OneNess, for me, is that until humanity is actually reaping the benefits of that feeling as a whole, it is just not real except maybe inside our hearts and heads…that is why instead of all this praying and meditation, I think we could support and participate in think tanks to be coming up with some Real Solutions.

I mean, it sounds nice to say we are all connected…and we are, through life, but it is not a good experience for many, and until we solve the problems that are so glaring within humanity, I am not sure that just saying Love is the connection makes it so…

seems we spend a lot of time mouthing the words…which might show our intention as good and honorable, but it would also seem that we become hypnotized by the idea, and fail to roll our sleeves up to dive into the mess and come up with solutions…(saying this in general, not necessarily directing it at any one.)

much love in joy, now and always, star…

Re: What is our True Nature?

i think our true nature, which is not separable from any other part of our nature, is “potential”.  the space (for lack of a better word) that our thoughts, actions, emotions, reactions, habits, insights, decisions, conditionings, ideas, opinions arise out of… and that this is present- not separate from the thoughts, actions, emotions etc… because each moment sets up the next moment where there are more thoughts, actions, emotions etc arising.

i don't really like the term true nature - because it implies there is a false nature by comparison…  but to me, it is all embedded together.

Re: What is our True Nature?

hmmmm…

arpita, yes, we have the potential to kill each other, destroy the planet, and generally speaking, obliterate life as we know it…this is true…gol

when however, we react by the dictates of our conditioned beliefs, the outcome is not true to what we really are.  We build up a ‘false’ nature with our illusions about what is real.  We wear so many masks that are not true to our own nature.
our opinions rise out of our pool of awareness, so that pool of awareness is our potential, but someone who has deconstructed the false structures within awareness, has more of a chance of being true to themselves then someone that has not questioned the very structures of belief that dictates their life and all of their reactions…

about moments…are you certain that there are really distinguishing and separate ones or is that just an illusion?  can it not be that the only reason one moment seems to set up the next is due to faulty structures of knowing and interpretation?  

yes…the term true nature implies that there is a false nature…and they are embedded together…one is imposed upon the other within consciousness.  becoming aware of that and recognizing it, is awakening to the difference.  it opens perspectives and gives new meaning, offering real choices for freedom…

thnx for commenting…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

hi star - in the course of a busy week i forgot about this post.


when however, we react by the dictates of our conditioned beliefs, the outcome is not true to what we really are.  We build up a ‘false’ nature with our illusions about what is real.  We wear so many masks that are not true to our own nature.
our opinions rise out of our pool of awareness, so that pool of awareness is our potential, but someone who has deconstructed the false structures within awareness, has more of a chance of being true to themselves then someone that has not questioned the very structures of belief that dictates their life and all of their reactions…

i like how you speak of this.  i would use similar words… except i question that deconstruction process … yes - there is a deconstruction sometimes - but i think that there is ANOTHER construction that takes it's place… another mask… it might be more insightful perhaps or mature (or not) but, regardless, another structure on which opinions arise out of.

in regard to moments … i just used that word - not in terms of a separate moment leading into the next separate moment - but rather in terms of flow… how existence and experience and interpretation flows rather seamlessly - the result and the cause inseparable. 

Re: What is our True Nature?

arpita,

there may very well be another construction, but do you not hold the possibility that there is also the potential of not rebuilding another structure?  

if not, then the real question would be, are we really free?

and you have just come up against a limit in your knowing structure, that would guarantee that we are not, in fact, nor can we ever really be…free…

i am not willing to accept this just b/c you or anyone else says so…

i question even that self-interpretated limit…

i noticed that you and Mike had an interesting exchange on the drama thread which actually pertained to this one…

maybe using the word true incites conceptual ideas about ones nature…such as the word pure does…i didn't quiet understand what you meant Mike, if you are reading this, about negating would guarantee that there would be no such thing as ones true nature…could you explain that here on this thread?

our human nature, as far as i can see, holds all possibilities within it…if this is so, then why would it not hold the potential to be free and true unto itself?

Re: What is our True Nature?

in my imagining structure - which is quite pliable, i hold the possibility of not rebuilding another structure - yet in my experience knowing structure - which does indeed appear to have a limit - i have never seen any example of this (not rebuilding another structure)…not in myself, not in any other person i have known - including masters and gurus.

are we really free?  i don't know what “free” means to you - so i cannot answer the question.

in relation to what free means to me (which is more of a sense than something i can define) - i would say … no.  we are never free… but are always bound to conditions and to the lives and living of all other beings.

but, on the other hand, there is freedom in that… to quote someone (which i rarely do) - Robert Masters - says it well .. “Freedom doesn't mind it's chains”

Re: What is our True Nature?

arpita,

not having seen an example of it is not verifiable evidence, as we are talking about something that you would not be able to give interpretation to…especially not for someone else…and btw, no way that you know every being anyways…lol

also, i am not sure that just b/c you have not seen it, does not mean it does not exist…b/c, again, you are intepretating it…

i would think that you would only be able to experience it for yourself…

i am not content to bind myself with our typical way of knowing…i am convinced that there is another way to be in the world, and another way of knowing not restricted by science or religion…not beyond the mind, or out there, or supernatural in any way…but in fact it is a very natural way…of being and knowing…without structures of interpretation…where freedom IS experienced…and the potential for knowing is unlimited…

no.  we are never free…but are always bound to conditions and to the lives and living of all other beings.

i would ask why can even this not be questioned?  do we have to believe this?  if so, why?  who says so?  i say we can question it, and i do…i refuse to believe something like this cannot be opened up and looked at…

thank you for this interaction arpita, as this is one of my fav topics as well…

p.s.  a freedom that does not mind its chains would seem to me to be deluded…gol…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

Star, in keeping with themes, this is from the TNT thread:


i disagree…we are all experiencing our true nature all that time…we just do not recognize it…are not aware of it…superimposed upon it is all our conditioning…and we are all aware of those times when we seem to be acting without interpretation…or conditioned responses…

Yet, would this not also make 'posturing” as much our “true nature” as anything else? Particularly if our “true nature” must include everything and can exclude nothing. No ?

this is what i am speaking of when i am referring to our true nature…nothing enlightened or supernatural about it…it is an awareness of our structures in operation and operating without them interpreting the experience for us in any solidified manner…

Indeed. Nothing “enlightened or supernatural about it” and that would include posturing and any other egocentric mechanism of existence. It seems any “true nature” would be all inclusive. Which means lying and deceiving and cheating and murder and war and…etc, etc, etc. However, egos don't care much for these aspects of existence and seek to exclude. How many dance with joy over war or murder or suffering of any kind?

i realize what you are saying…that the minute i say i am dancing in my own joy…i have interpretated my experience…but is it not our desire and wish to live free from this worlds restricting and limiting ways?  i am not speaking of living in lala land or some fantasy world…on the contrary, i am speaking of a way of being in the world and being able to accept all that is real…and still be filled with the joy of being…it does not mean that we do not feel pain, it means that we can open that experience up to joy as well…

Yes, it is our desire to live from from conditioned limits, but aren't conditioned limits as much a part of it all as the unconditioned. Why the “joy of being”? Can we dance with joy in our suffering? Seems the ego assumes that joy has something to do with Being. But does that merely asserts an opposite of joy? Joy is as much an interpretation as suffering. Maybe neither is the answer, but what would that be? What would neither joy nor suffering feel like?

it is all there for us to feel…it is all our true nature…the ability to feel pain and joy…we can open up to all of it…that is our true nature…

So we can dance with joy in our suffering? Yes, we all know how to feel pain and joy, but choose one over the other…

…possibly a mistake?
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

Yet, would this not also make 'posturing” as much our “true nature” as anything else? Particularly if our “true nature” must include everything and can exclude nothing. No ?

yes, but when recognized as such, and seen as a cause for suffering and confusion, would it not be wise to discontinue using it as such?  (the posturing)…iow, using it for destructive purposes…


that would include posturing and any other egocentric mechanism of existence. It seems any “true nature” would be all inclusive. Which means lying and deceiving and cheating and murder and war and…etc, etc, etc. However, egos don't care much for these aspects of existence and seek to exclude. How many dance with joy over war or murder or suffering of any kind?

it would hold the possibilities for all yes, but to act on those with wisdom for the benefit of all in mind…considering which were appropriate and when…iow, to be able to use your egoic reactions for good knowing what you are doing, not simply being controlled by an emotional reaction, but to be able to see with clarity…using wisdom…

I disagree that the ego doesn't have noble aspirations…it does…as we have discussed, the ego is not at all all bad…we have yet to refine it and use it appropriately for the benefit of all humanity…

we are human…joy is an aspect of our being as well as pain…seems to me, we could all be striving for what is good and beautiful…what is wondrous and joyful within our experience…and open up to that, and make that potential possible for all of humanity…much of our suffering is unnecessary…

i don’t think we can not know joy or pain…but we do not have to be limited to suffering…we can open up every experience to all that it can be instead of only what we are focused on…we continue to close ourselves up within our limited beliefs…this causes suffering and frustration…

choosing one over the other is not what i am speaking of…

I am speaking of opening up one to the other…

i answered this fast…hope i did it justice…i am certain you will let me know if not…lol*

Re: What is our True Nature?

  arpita said: (from another thread) a concept of true self or a concept of pure nature is more posturing… however - within all of these concepts there is a non-conceptual potential of their arising…(which is - in the writing and conceiving of this -yet another posture)…

then star said: i disagree…we are all experiencing our true nature all that time…we just do not recognize it…are not aware of it…superimposed upon it is all our conditioning…and we are all aware of those times when we seem to be acting without interpretation…or conditioned responses…

then mike said: Yet, would this not also make 'posturing” as much our “true nature” as anything else? Particularly if our “true nature” must include everything and can exclude nothing. No ?

now arpita again…

in my first quote above - i am actually saying, in my way of understanding - the same thing star says in her quote… and in fact, in my view, there is no disagreement at all.  i choose to say that pure nature (which i prefer to true nature) is inherent in all dynamics that we as selves are involved in… and mike says again - the same thing.
i would agree that the pure nature is always present yet is not noticed generally speaking…

however, even upon noticing this very ordinary nature - a lot of discerning still needs to take place … in terms of one's own inner dialogues (judgements, fears, reactions etc) … and also much discernment needed in regards to various outer dialogues (about assumptions in world views, opinions, belief systems, etc) … discerning - and then a refining, developing, remodeling, changing … an openness (which can be a nasty catch-all newagie sort of word - but can't find another word to use at present) to perceive something new, or something not noticed before.

Re: What is our True Nature?

star said…and we are all aware of those times when we seem to be acting without interpretation…or conditioned responses…

oh… this actually is something that i do not necessarily agree with.  i thought at some point that there was action without interpretation or conditioned response - but in fact - that was not the case… so even though i like the thought of it … for me - in self honesty - nope - hasn't happened.  this thought (of acting without interpretation or conditioned response)-  is a delusion (to me).

Re: What is our True Nature?

arpita,

could it have happened and you not aware of it?

and remember i said “seems”…so the experiencing is different from the actual interpretation you might give it at a later time…

have you never had an experience when things were happening in sync? like the universe was dancing everything without effort into being, and the dance was one of harmony, where everyone spoke as if like notes in a song, on time and on key?  everything seemed brighter and more alive? flowing with no direction and yet not chaotic but right along with the aliveness of the moment?

your senses are alive, so that part of conditioning is functioning…but i am mainly speaking of the negative judgments and conditioned responses that impede the flow of life, and interpret frustration, and closes us down instead of opening us up…

Re: What is our True Nature?

could it have happened and you not aware of it?

have you never had an experience when things were happening in sync? like the universe was dancing everything without effort into being, and the dance was one of harmony, where everyone spoke as if like notes in a song, on time and on key?  everything seemed brighter and more alive? flowing with no direction and yet not chaotic but right along with the aliveness of the moment?

mmm…
well - i have had many experiences like that - and when i am in a particular frame of mind - all experience - past and present - seems to be like that …  but i am not sure if there is not some sort of conditioning involved in the perceiving (or is it interpretation…)

is it possible that it has happened and i am not aware of it??- maybe… or maybe i am just framing the experience in different words… not being particularly concerned if there is conditioning or not… but suspecting that there is some sort of subtle conditioning…

ugh… i think i'll go now and do some prostrations - or say mantras to the guru - or light a candle and smudge with sweat grass, then do some qigong … that's easier than thinking about this stuff. (haha)

Re: What is our True Nature?

lol…yeah, don't try to think it to death…just go with the flow of it…lmao…

ok…go do your meditating…OM…may you relax into your own true nature…enter…gol

much love…thnx for playin…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

arpita, 

i don't see any difference from anything else, except i am aware of this flow of being, this joy within, a clarity of mind, as well as an openness of being…i still can and do use my brain, in fact much better, as awareness is clearer…i can go as deep into it as i need to, or stay along the surface busying myself with this or that…and then relaxing deeper into it when i see that i have closed myself off from it…or opening up to it…from without or within…which seems to flow together…

yes, most are not able to notice it…much less remain in it…but it is as natural as can be…

Re: What is our True Nature?

hi star

haven't read all the posts here in the last 24 hours - but to reply simply to you here

i would ask why can even this not be questioned?  do we have to believe this?  if so, why?  who says so?  i say we can question it, and i do…i refuse to believe something like this cannot be opened up and looked at…

i think it is good to be open to the possibilities - to have a belief system that is “subject to change”.  there is a good freedom right there - i believe …

Re: What is our True Nature?

hi arpita,

the freedom to dance on the edge of the future/time…haha…yeap…

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hi all,
  I’m just getting back to gaia after a pretty long hiatus. This seemed like a good place to get started.

As I write this, I feel an uncomfortable twitch in the gut because
I sense inherent limitedness in what I about to express – ‘always the case :)’. Nonetheless, I will endeavor to overcome it and soldier on.

To me our “true” (however loosely that label applies) nature is in all non-verbal, non contrived states in the now. We are always experiencing through it and to varying degrees, intermittently aware of it.When we attempt to articulate it however, we fall into a word trap, for example the suffix “true” to nature. Other instances where we seek to find a correlation between being “free” and our “true” nature.  As I feel all things verbalized fall well short of the direct experience of it - Partly the reason I have stayed away from such discussions in the past – I am less inclined to create or imbibe a static, limited, fixed understanding of our true nature. I would like to leave you all with a few lines from Hafiz..


I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question: 
How are you? 
I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question: 
What is God? 
If you think that the Truth can be known
From words, 
If you think that the Sun and the Ocean 
Can pass through that tiny opening Called the mouth, 
O someone should start laughing!
Someone should start wildly Laughing –Now!


Be…

Re: What is our True Nature?

i disagree 12sages…i have expressed my own true nature verbally many times, here and within the poems i write…

Rumi expresses it very well…so do many others…

i cannot tell you what yours is…but i know what mine is…i know what it feels like to be in it…i also know what it feels like when i am not open to it…

it is the most natural truth in the world…

always, star…

Re: What is our True Nature?

my reason for starting this thread was so we could discuss our ideas concerning true nature without the limits of systems of belief…even this one concerning the ego…it is necessary for us to have a self to navigate as human, but that does not mean that we have to believe in the solidity of this self, and/or be limited by it…

i am not suggesting nonduality either…it is ridiculous to assume that we are not dual beings…i am suggesting that we make the best of our human experience by opening up the things that limit us, and using the things that can open us up…like space and time…

there is a dynamic to time which relates to the aliveness of experience…space can also be used to open one up when one is feeling restricted or limited…

if we look at what our true nature use to be, let's say when it was in a reptile, it was beneficial for us to know how to kill in a cold-blooded way to survive…since we have inherited this nature within our reptilian brains, we will always have access to this potential if and when we need it.  

some of us have not evolved to the point of going beyond this idea of war and killing, iow, some of us have not accessed and are not able to use all the benefits of our rational brain…

some of us are able to use it in a more awakened way then others…many things prevent us as a whole, from moving forward…especially our conditioned beliefs…

once we realize that something within our nature is not beneficial, we should be able to recognize it and move past those patterns of behavior…if we are thinking clearly and with wisdom and heart…

when i speak of opening up to joy…i am suggesting that joy as well as pain is within our experience, and we interpret them as such…would it not make more sense to open up painful experiences to allow for the joy that is also available?

we are human being…the depth of our experience is unlimited…the potential for humanity is as well…we need not go beyond what is to discover our own true nature within our very being…

May we all awaken to our own humanity…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

While I can appreciate it may be interesting to explore something without beliefs, I don't believe it is possible.

We all have beliefs, and it is no more possible for us to explore ideas outside of them than it is for a fish to swim around in air instead of water.

When Robert and I were in Nashville with Ben, we had a fascinating discussion with Hal about beliefs. We were talking about how beliefs operate on so many levels and affect so much. For example, religious or philosophical beliefs jump immediately to mind, assumptions about God and God's role in the universe, morality, the nature of things - duality or non-duality, maya, etc

But beliefs go beyond these and influence all levels of thought, discourse and action.

Love,

Nicole

Love,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

that sounds like a wonderful thread to start Nicole…maybe you could ask Ben, Robert, and Hal to come and comment on it…

but it has nothing to do with my topic…i never said that there were no beliefs, i said i would like to discuss true nature without the limits of said belief systems…

sincerely, *

Re: What is our True Nature?

 i said i would like to discuss true nature without the limits of said belief systems…

right, don't see how one is to do that, what am I missing?

Cheers,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

Nicole, several of us, in case you did not notice, are discussing it quiet well…the idea is to continue to question any beliefs or limits that arise…

did you miss that?

did you read all the posts?  some of the contributions are very revealing…are you dismissing them all?  maybe you should reread them…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

no, didn't miss it, thanks for asking. Still question the premise. But that's ok.

Re: What is our True Nature?

hey Nicole, flip the question…iow, instead of saying that it cannot be done, question that, and ask why can it not be done?  why can we not go beyond our limiting beliefs? why can we not continue to question that which limits our understanding?  does that help?

Re: What is our True Nature?

indeed, it does help, thank you!

hugs,

nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

Nicole said:

“We were talking about how beliefs operate on so many levels and affect so much. For example, religious or philosophical beliefs jump immediately to mind, assumptions about God and God's role in the universe, morality, the nature of things - duality or non-duality, maya, etc.”

If you start pondering about the origin of whatever belief you are discussing you may reveal some interesting facts about why you yourself hold on to a particular belief. This can open up a completely new level of understanding your own self.

Namaste,
Axel

Re: What is our True Nature?

I find that too, Axel!

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

hey Star,
I’m a little unclear with who you disagree? Hafiz or me? 
Like I said, I will endeavor to try….and I did…
If you have expressed it ….wonderful! 
:) 
Right now, your disagreement is my true nature… :) 

naturally..12

Re: What is our True Nature?

haha…

what i disagree with you on is where you state that it can only be expressed in nonverbal ways…

where words can trap, they can also open…

iow, we can open the meaning of our words up as well…

the truth is what it is in the moment it is experienced…i see no reason for limiting my experience by Rumi, his teacher or anyone or anything else…or my expression of it…

good to meet you and discuss this with you…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

:)

I agree with you Star… and that uncomfortable twitch in my gut was exactly on account of that….limitedness.

Right now the meaning of these words falls through
 Non-verbal is verbal when spoken of
All verbal melts into non-verbal when silent…
All in essence free…given meaning…the trap magically appears!

my true nature now…all meaning in words.
12.

Re: What is our True Nature?

note to self:  watch out for that little twitch in the gut…even that can be a limit…lol*

Re: What is our True Nature?

twitch in gut is now limitless smile on face… :)

Re: What is our True Nature?

gol*

Re: What is our True Nature?

Oh, my, what a fun conversation!  

Great question, Star!  

Our true nature?  Hmm.  Not exactly sure whether there is an absolute answer to this quest but the following comes to mind :-   

First of all (I think) our human nature is similar to animal nature and that is to create, preserve/protect and destroy but there is a difference.      

We humans have the power, the choice to stop creation, to decide not to protect or defend and to destroy or not to destroy…….so perhaps, our true nature is the art in using our godlike power to benefit not only ourselves but to see through illusions and to know that when we go out of our way to help others, we're at the same time increasing our chances at survival, (yes, even on Gaia :) that human tribes were programmed to bond with other tribes for survival and also to divide for said survival.  I guess it all boils down to one word.  Survival.   Our true nature is to survive no matter what and yet, yet, our true nature is also self-sacrificial….willing to give up our kidney to save another even though we could end up…well…er…dead.

If there is anything unnatural about us (although these may appear the most natural), then I'd say its possibly many things, including our delusional beliefs that there is a god who's thirsting for our worshipping, that we're all “goody-two-shoe-saints” and refusing to see we're all capable of all kinds of atrocious behavior especially when circumstances are beyond our control…  I mean, who will admit they are the 'bad guy' amongst us?  Will the real “Bad Guy” please stand up?  

Anyone in sight yet?

So yes, on our true nature, I am seeing that when it comes down “to kill or be killed”,  it doesn't have to be either.  We have the 'choice' to  side step artfully, to save the day, to win our enemies over, to conquer hostile hearts and so much more.   And yet………..

Yikes. This is starting not to make sense.  Oh, well, I am off to get some sleep and hope it makes better sense 2morrow.  lol!

Re: What is our True Nature?

gol…i adore you goddess of gaia…

yes, i agree…how can that which is still being created, or recreated be absolute?

hopefully our ability to see clearly will continue to evolve…and our abilities to understand and see ways that prevent us from continuing to destroy ourselves will as well…

we might still need all of our potential, but we need to get better at interpreting how best to use what we have at our disposal…

we have yet to even understand our history…we can open that up to knowledge as well and learn to not repeat the past mistakes of humanity…we can also learn to look forward using preventive measures…

our true nature is unlimited…and it does not have to be stuck in the limitations of its past…it can move forward and take its place in the free-ness and creativity of its own being…for the benefit of all humanity…

thanks for commenting goddess…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

very interesting thread. Here is what I believe our true nature is:

First of all, we are all on an evolutionary journey. And this goes far beyond what is taught in textbooks. It is a journey that will bring us into realms of experience that few of us can fathom at this time. Just look at little deeper into the 2012 issue and ascension. Ascension is the next step in the evolution of humanity. And it is happening now. Just open your eyes. Throughout the past millenia, humans indeed struggled mainly with survival. But not we are moving “up the ladder” to become more spiritual beings. This is why many of us are drawn to nature and the spirituality of native tribes (witchcraft, shamanism, native americans ways of life, etc.). These tribal communities still remember their “true nature” where as we Westerners have forgotten it a while ago. We are not following our “true nature” and instead reap the Earth of its resources, destroy nature and our environment, and follow greedy and materialistic pursuits. This is part of our evolution (unfortunately as I have to say) and therefore not “false” or “true” or right or wrong (if you want to hold on to the dualisitc view). It is just the way things are. But it has delayed our evolution. All of us who are drawn to the more spiritual ways of native tribes remember this and are on their path to ascension.  After all, we are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And if you learn how to just be (starlight said: “I am convinced that it is our very nature to feel that bliss and joy of being”), than you are indeed following your true nature.

Namaste,
Axel

Re: What is our True Nature?

Axel, first off, thank you for responding to my little topic…

while i agree with much of what you have said, there are a few things that i question…

this ascension you speak of…as it has evolved into an entire belief system of its own if i am not mistaken…am i correct in that?

while on the one hand, you claim it will be the next step in the evolution of humanity, you contradict that by saying humans are moving up the ladder to become more spiritual beings…as if being spiritual is separate from being human…and it not an embodied experience…

i don’t see how it can get any more spiritual than being human…and in my mind, yes it is our nature to be drawn to nature, however, we have made much progress, and instead of going back completely, we need to embrace that and go forward, using our advances in technology to benefit all of humanity and the earth and its inhabitants…to truly awaken to our own human-ness and humanity…

yeah it’s really cool to say dualistic and nondualistic, which is also a belief system, and yeah, no true or false, or right or wrong…and that we are not human beings having a spiritual experience that we are spiritual beings having a human experience…i have heard all that before…and have some questions for you regarding all of it…

i am human being…i feel pain and joy…there is nothing wrong with me being what i am…and to continue to evolve along this very human journey…i like being human…i like fucking…making love…i like eating, and sleeping…and singing, dancing…i love rainbows and sunsets…etc…

what i am is not an illusion, it is what i think about what i am that is the illusion…what i have been conditioned to believe, so in that sense, i have a false idea of what is true…we can play with words all day and into next year…but until we get serious about this journey human…i am not sure that we will be going anywhere but boom…

no right or wrong…i disagree…while i may not have a good or bad judgment, there is a right and a wrong way to raise a child…or a proper and improper way…a way that is beneficial, and a way that is not…and that is just one example…

tell me…before human being actually evolved, were the animals that were experiencing being, spiritual beings experiencing being animals?  when a star was first a star…was it too a spiritual being getting blown to hell for our benefit?  these are just some of the questions that come up when i read your post…

2012…really?  did a star tell you?  i am not being facetious…well maybe a little…

I would suggest you take the same advice that you gave Nicole here…it was excellent advice and intune with the true nature of this thread…


If you start pondering about the origin of whatever belief you are discussing you may reveal some interesting facts about why you yourself hold on to a particular belief. This can open up a completely new level of understanding your own self.


while i agree that humanity has the potential for some amazing things that some of us have yet to imagine…within those possibilities seems to also be the potential of our own destruction…may we all awaken from insanity before then…lol

Thank you very much for your interaction…btw, i am not cursing at you…i am just using those words cuz i like em…gol*

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hi Starlight,

I like your response. You obviously read my post very carefully and it spawned some thinking. That is all I can hope to achieve: spawn some thinking. Don't suppose that I have all the answers. I do not. I am here to learn from you guys by playing around with concepts and ideas. And I may contradict myself, which I like doing once in a while ;-) What I am telling you is just what I believe is true. And where these believes come from is an entirely different story and probably not of any value (nothing I really want to talk about). I am also not expecting anyone to believe what I say. This is completely up to you. Make up your mind and please believe whatever you feel is right. If helps you - good. If it does not - just forget about it. I am not here to judge anyone or have any interest in justifying my beliefs (sounds rude but is not meant that way). All I would like to do is discuss things, beliefs and opinions openly to learn. And therefore, I would like to connect to some of the points you made in your response.

First of all, ascension from my point of view is nothing that stands on its own or is a belief system that is separated from the rest of the world. It is happening, wether you believe it or not. And we are all part of it. Of course, you are free to believe this is all crap, nonsense, and does not exists. I guess that is as valid as believing in it (as I do). There is no need to discuss it any further if you don't want to.

You say: ”i don’t see how it can get any more spiritual than being human”. Neither can I. Spiritual development, or evolution if you will, is part of being human. We have evolved and will evolve further. But how can we fathom what to involve into? We don't know what we will become or how it feels once we are there. We evolve every day. And some things you understand today and take for granted are things you could not understand before. If we evolve into higher spiritual realms that are out of our current perception, how can we imagine level of being? We cannot have a clue about these higher dimension of spirituality we evolve into. There is just no way to do that. So I think I understand what you are saying when you say “I don't see that”. But that does mean that it will be impossible or not happen just because you “don't see that”. If you had asked your grand grand mother if humans will be able to fly soon, she would probably have laughed at you. And only a few decades after humans crossed the Atlantic with an airplane we went to the moon. Now, quantum physics tell us that matter does not even exist and it is all an illusion, a holographic perception produced by our minds. You are right when you say that ”what i am is not an illusion, it is what i think about what i am that is the illusion”. The question is: what do you believe you are? As I said, there is scientific evidence that even matter is an illusion. Okay, this hard to even consider but have you ever thought about the fact that what you perceive as material reality could just be holographic picture produced by your mind? Maybe the material world is really only an illusion. At least that is what quantum physics tells us. Electrons and atoms pop into existence ONLY when we look at them. The conscious observer is required to “see” matter and pull it into existence. Otherwise it is not even there. Our five senses play us tricks. This is what I mean when I say “If you start pondering about the origin of whatever belief you are discussing you may reveal some interesting facts about why you yourself hold on to a particular belief. This can open up a completely new level of understanding your own self.” You can go as deep as you wish. There are no limits. And the deeper you get the more interesting it gets. Material reality as we know it seems to be only an illusion (read Terence McKenna and Robert Anton Wilson). What seems to be real are your feelings, your emotions, your thoughts, your beliefs. Beliefs shape our world and there are biologist like Dr. Bruce Lipton out there who can prove it. And that means in terms of evolution there is more to come than we possible can hope to understand. I am looking forward to see that. Should be interesting times ahead.

Last point: ”there is a right and a wrong way to raise a child…or a proper and improper way…a way that is beneficial, and a way that is not”. This, again, is all about beliefs. What do you BELIEVE is the right way to raise a child? Why do you BELIEVE that? What is BENEFICIAL? Who benefits?

I could go on and on but I guess I should go to bed. It is almost 3 am already. But it was a nice way to spend some time. Maybe sex would have been nicer but I did not have the right person around. So don't feel bad or apologize ;-)

BTW: Stars are beings too - didn't you know ;-)

Good night,
Axel





 

Re: What is our True Nature?

lol…

dang…i was headed to bed and look what happened…haha

ok…i read it…and here is my take on the physics thing…we don't live at the subatomic level…we live where if you stab me my blood runs red and it hurts like hell…

another thing…good point about the raising of the children, and i do have my own ideas concerning it…that we teach them to believe in themselves and their own strengths…that we encourage their gifts instead of labeling them as mentally ill or whatever…and that we not fuck them…literally…

that is just a few things on that…i could go on, but i think you get the general idea…

as Nicole has stated, we have to have beliefs…i think she said that…but my intention is to refine those beliefs and lose the ones that no longer serve their purpose…the ones that limit us…

i think if we believe a shift is a coming in 2012, we will sit around and not do what needs to be done in the meantime, so in that way, it is a limited belief…and all the children that starve inbetween now and then we have just said fuck em…we don't give a shit…

ok…i am not going to read that book…reality may very well be an illusion, but as Einy said, it is a persistent one…and it doesn't look like it is going anywhere at the moment, so should we not try and do the best we can with it?  

i can think of many examples where feelings are based on illusions…and our emotional reactions are not based upon fact…and our thoughts are ridiculous and not accurate as well…and i have already stated what i believe to be true concerning beliefs, that they limit us…and we should always question our limits…

i don't know what this dr. lipton can prove, seems i saw one of his videos though…and while i agree with the idea that what we believe can and does affect us…we cannot undo the fact that our leg just got cut off just b/c we sit there and think or believe it so…

ok…lol at the Stars being beings too…haha…but i was questioning not saying what any of it is exactly…

i hope i addressed what i needed to…but you did not answer my questions and seemed to ramble a bit all over the place…and yes contradicting yourself in many places…to many for me to point out…but hey…thnx for your response…

good night to you as well…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

People cannot handle being free, and being  guilty of doing wrong,
 or credit for doing right, and transfer their blame and credit to the religion..

The strength of any system of belief is in it's ability to take responsibility,
 off of you, transferring it to the religion.

 If the responsibility is towards a positive outcome, something good,
 then it gives people a God “out there”, for Credit.
 
it is blasphemy to consider yourself  God,
because if You were God, you would have to take the blame for yourself.
not acceptable, because that is precisely the reason.
 you chose to dump it on God and the Devil,
 because You were avoiding the blame, convenient.

If the responsibility is regarding something bad,
 or an evil outcome then it is the Devil who is to blame.

If You are to be truly free, You must accept that Your actions,
 good or bad, are Your responsibility.

  If You are  free, then do and think whatever You want. 
However, no one can escape the consequences.
 If You think, or do something 'bad' or 'evil',
You cannot place the blame on the Devil,
 so You have to accept responsibility
 and suffer the consequences, alone. 

What You did was Your responsibility!
How often do you hear someone say that ?

 You make excuses, removing part or all of  the responsibility for Your actions,
 blame someone or something else, or  God or the Devil.
 
This is why Religions have such amazing power,  over their members,
 because the need to avoid credit and blame is so strong..

When You say You want to be free,
 what You really mean is that  You don't want  to be responsible.
 
Belief systems recognise good and evil,
 give You this freedom from responsibility,
 while leading You further into bondage, and addiction,
and allowing You to get sicker and sicker,
to avoid responsibility for Yourself,
and changing, in order to be a better You.

You merely become addicted to a system,
that enables You to deny all consequences.
do bad, blame others or the devil.
do good, you only did it because it is expected of you.

this is bullshit. all your actions and thoughts
proceed from you, and not from god, or the devil,
and the consequences will be paid, regardless.

we have guaranteed free will.
that means that no devil or god,
 will cause us to think or do good or evil
 so much for blaming god or the devil

it is time to grow up, and see ourselves for what we are,
 flawed, and in need of repair 
get the toolbox out, and start working on yourself

dont blame god or the devil
they dont have a thing to do with it.
You do. Get Busy, and Change, before it is too late.

God and the Devil have nothing to do with You changing Yourself.
 They are just watching the Game of Life,
and Taking Bets on Who Wins.

Re: What is our True Nature?

uh…torch…what does this have to do with the topic?  is this you expressing your true nature?  or were you trying to dismantle belief systems?

i am not sure what you are getting at except for taking responsibility…but that could of been said in one sentence…LOL

good grief…there you go again preaching a sermon on my thread…Jesus…you know you are allowed to start your own thread…LOL

i am at a loss as to what exactly you are getting at as it is in relation to our true nature on this thread…

sincerely, *

Re: What is our True Nature?

good retort, star. examine a little deeper, and see what you were looking for.
all the reasons we adopt religion to excuse ourselves, and drop out of responsibility for ourselves, discovering our true nature, and get bound up in
false systems of belief, that have nothing to do with experience or nature.

my bad. i clipped a blog of mine that focused on how we cop out from change,
by using religion as a crutch. instead of blaming and rewarding ourselves, we blame and reward God and the Devil, and transfer responsibility to Our religion, and see ourselves as helpless.  when we see ourselves as helpless, we are done, as far as any hope of attainment thru personal change. 

Re: What is our True Nature?

torch, i would rather you speak from your heart and leave god and the devil and religion out of it…i mean…i am interested in what YOU think…apart from belief systems…if you can distinguish what that is without them…for yes they are a crutch…(watch out all the believers are going to bum rush this thread and string me up…lol).

Re: What is our True Nature?

the question is how does religion or philosophy serve nature and you.
no one bothers to answer that question, why ?
because they want to remake nature and you, to conform to their religion and philosophy, the same way that any institution wants to control you
reject the control. if your inner space does not mesh with nature and you, then reject it, and find a set of values that does mesh with nature and you.
focus on the goal of true nature and you.

Re: What is our True Nature?

yes reverend torch…LOL…gaias nonreligious preacher…gol*

ub2funny…

i am very content with my own true nature, and also to continue to question my limits…my religious systems of belief collapsed upon themselves several years ago…and i have yet to rebuild anything really upon that foundation…i continue to dive deeper into our actual structures for knowing, memories, moments, past, present, and future, our senses and the way awareness is filtered through them, the self and its many I's…questioning science as well…and our actual ways of knowing…also questioning our concepts of time and space, and how we can open to them and experience a freer way of being…

anyhoo…time to go nity nite for real…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

I know, for Myself, to gain Wisdom, I had to do some heavy duty reprogramming of Myself to be rid of overly judgemental thoughts and looking for My expectations to be satisfied.

it took Me a Year, but I have reduced My Judgemental side by Half. I am not sure where i am from an expectation standpoint, but i know that i am operating in a less expectational mode now, as well.

Interpretation is necessary, and has many pitfalls.

  all You can do is reduce biased interpretations, and suspend judgement,
 until you get more information, or do research on the topic.

  agree to suspend opinion and judgement.

 conditioned response merely begs for You to reprogram yourself,
 to get rid of old behaviors that no longer make sense,
or apply to your new view of the world, based upon your new reality.

however, if You believe You cannot do something, You cannot do it,
and so that is a self-fulfilling failure to “get it”.

 abilities dont come to those who dont want them.

Re: What is our True Nature?

wisdom is not something we own…wisdom is found in the truth of each moment of experiencing…

i had a teacher…still…we keep in touch…she had two sayings…

subtract it all…


it's an inside job…


of course, then along came Mike with his Fully Engaged pod and confirmed what another teacher said as well…that i was on my own in the world and that my very life is my path…and i am the vehicle for my own awakening…to being human…

abilities?  i dunno about that…many people are born with abilities that are not understood, and so in some ways become a curse…

Re: What is our True Nature?

of course, then along came Mike with his Fully Engaged pod and confirmed what another teacher said as well…that i was on my own in the world and that my very life is my path…and i am the vehicle for my own awakening…to being human…

Well….just as long as we understand that Mike would never perpetuate the idea that “I was on my own in the world.” However, Mike is happy the pod formation has allowed that to rise to the top and be discussed.

Actually, Mike feels that individual awakening is a egocentric hoax and no one awakes until everyone awakes. If we consider “awakening” to be awareness of absolute truth, then Mike does NOT believe 'individuals' can ever know the truth separately or alone, but can become aware of truth unified and together. Until individuals actively join together in search of truth, individuals will glorify in their individualism and remain apart (conditions as they seem, currently)

However, Mike does understand that due to the general deep-seated mistrust we have with one another, egos have opted for the 'solitary path' to truth and every religious and spiritual ideology now conforms to that egocentric individual program. Is suppose that is why truth continues to be missing from the world (but I only speculate)

This is an unfortunate fact of existence…

…but it cannot be denied.
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

It is interesting that what arises is not always the original intention.

One of the glories of this kind of group interaction, I think.

Awakening together with you,

Love,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

It is interesting that what arises is not always the original intention.

Very true. This is why my chief intention for the pod was simply to engage…

…even though the mission statement does imply a purpose of such engagement….

…I have no desire to impose my rules upon the game, which would be anti-engagement…
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

Mike feels that individual awakening is a egocentric hoax and no one awakes until everyone awakes.

You keep repeating this like a mantra or a scratched record, if you remember what one of those is.

You're stuck in a rut Mike. 

You know what a rut is? A coffin that's open at both ends.

You are denying that any enlightened human has ever walked the earth, and you express it with an enthusiam to match any evangelist. 

It's like you think you're on a mission from God.

Are you?

Re: What is our True Nature?

Many who claim “enlightenment” have walked the earth….

But….

what good did that do?

No Aus, WE are on a mission from God …

…and you're in it too…

Although, I understand you still want IT for yourself…

Ha!
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

It's MINE all MINE…. is that what you mean Mike?

It's the ones that didn't 'claim' enlighttenment that I'm more drawn to, whose lives reflected that they had 'something' that caused them not to be concerned with appearances but were able to percieve a bigger picture.

Re: What is our True Nature?

Interesting…

Mike, for starters, I don’t believe in absolute truth, and the awakening and true nature that I am speaking of is not that of enlightenment, for I do not believe in that either…what I am speaking of is our natural nature…it is open and free and filled with joy, wonder and beauty…

When I speak of awakening, I am speaking of awakening to being human, and yes, it takes engaging with other humans…but I don’t see how all humans everywhere are just gonna wake up together like you say has to happen, sounds like to me you are waiting for Jesus Christ to return with heaven consciousness and just give to everyone…

Clarity of Awareness might just be a gift, but it is one I have had to work my ass off to have…battling ego and psychological demons…so don't try to tell me that much of the work done for one to be true to themselves and awake to their own being is not done by them…this is just not true Mike, no matter how much you want it to be…unless YOU do the work on your own ego…you will still have those conditioned problems that will continue to get in the way of you experiencing what I am speaking of experiencing…

Maybe that might happen, Christ or Buddha Awareness all of a sudden being birthed on earth…but I’m not going to wait around and hold my breath…there are many humane causes to be involved in…much good that can be accomplished towards bettering humanity…and helping others just to be more open in their perspectives and understanding of each other…and helping others see that it is possible to live their lives free of the frustration and suffering that often closes life down…

When I speak of true nature, it is a place to begin…and every individual is a human being, and needs a place to begin…it is a place where your mind is free, and truth is experienced in the moment…it is a place of joy and clarity…available to each and everyone…is there pain there, of course, life has pain in it…but that pain can be opened to the joy that surrounds it as well…

You may like making fun of everyones ideas, but hey, by your own words, you have not even attempted to really look into the TSK vision…so, until you have tried it, I would say don’t knock it…but then again, do whatever floats your boat…

I would also say you are stuck in the ego phase…are you ever going to get over that?  Our egos are psychologically conditioned, and we can discover where they are helping us to behave in self-destructive ways and move on…

I find it very unfortunate that you choose to view what I have spoken of through your own egoic filter and set of beliefs concerning it, instead of as the fresh new perspective that I know it is…I have learned to experience the joy of being…awake to my own humanity…and while others were very necessary to the process, for me to be awake to what I am does not take everyone for it to happen…not what I am speaking of…

In other posts you have poked fun at the word openness and others…why don’t you just say what you mean to me?  to my face?  here and fully engage with me instead of talking all around it?  

I have answered every challenge you have given me, and a few you have ignored, but then you write a post like this that is filled with inuendos and interpretations of what I am speaking of that are just not what I am speaking of…

Maybe we have just misunderstood each other all the way around…

Trying to engage…fully…

Btw, what was meant by I was on my own…was that I was now at the bottom of a mountain called life, with an adult, grown-up awareness…human…and now there was nothing else to do for me but to go live it…outloud as possible…my bad for not making that clearer…it also meant that spiritual teachers can only bring you so far…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

Mike, for starters, I don’t believe in absolute truth,

Oh…sorry I thought you did when you mentioned “Being” which, of course, we are all engaged in, therefore, it is an absolute to everyone. All else might be relative but that seems fairly true all around. Yet, we could say some beings are no longer being, but that we do not know for sure and, so all we can say accurately is that we are all being. As far as experiencing a 'joy' in that…well…that might be relative.

but I don’t see how all humans everywhere are just gonna wake up together like you say has to happen, sounds like to me you are waiting for Jesus Christ to return with heaven consciousness and just give to everyone…

Yes, I do realize it is rather audacious of me to consider we could all do what some claim “Jesus Christ” must return in order to experience, but there ya have it. That's exactly what I believe. Besides, as I've expressed previously,I don't believe Christ was a 'person,' or any other form, but is a mythical archetype available to all minds and when all minds access it we may then all experience it.

unless YOU do the work on your own ego…you will still have those conditioned problems that will continue to get in the way of you experiencing what I am speaking of experiencing…

Ego working on ego? seems unlikely to result in anything valuable except what the ego determines.

there are many humane causes to be involved in…much good that can be accomplished towards bettering humanity…and helping others just to be more open in their perspectives and understanding of each other…

Certainly. Become fully engaged….there really is no other choice.

You may like making fun of everyones ideas, but hey, by your own words, you have not even attempted to really look into the TSK vision…so, until you have tried it, I would say don’t knock it…but then again, do whatever floats your boat…

I really don't “make fun” of anyone's ideas…. merely question.

I would also say you are stuck in the ego phase…are you ever going to get over that?

Of course, aren't we all? or are there some individuals more advanced than others?
As far as getting over it, i suppose when we all do I'll tag along, since I'd hate to be left behind.

Our egos are psychologically conditioned, and we can discover where they are helping us to behave in self-destructive ways and move on…

True. We are psychologically conditioned to be limited by a body, but we make compromises with that fact in order to attain some sense of limited freedom (which is really not freedom at all)

In other posts you have poked fun at the word openness and others…why don’t you just say what you mean to me?  to my face?  here and fully engage with me instead of talking all around it? 

Certainly. let's engage!

I have answered every challenge you have given me, and a few you have ignored, but then you write a post like this that is filled with inuendos and interpretations of what I am speaking of that are just not what I am speaking of…

I have no challenges…only questions. But I do understand how many see questions as attack. Such is the nature of the ego-self.

Maybe we have just misunderstood each other all the way around…

That's a possibility, especially in a forum like this.

Always happy to fully engage with you, star!
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hey Mike, I don't see it as an attack, but I do see you misinterpreting what I have stated…mainly b/c of your absolute ideas about awakening, and your perspectives being filtered through a less then open filter…are you willing to also question this, or is this just another concrete belief system that we have to endure?  how is it different from any other?  you are still offering enlightenment and dangling it like a carrot for a dog in a race that will never be caught…and, we have no control, or freedom according to you, we just have to play the infinite game of waiting…what are we waiting on?

I am not sure how Being and Absolute Truth relate…trying to get a handle on what you are alluding to…I sense your sarcasm, but I am really interested in what you are talking about…

I thought you were referring to Absolute Truth meaning that which all the spiritual traditions point to…while I think that we are still evolving towards that harmonious humanity…I don't think it will be coming out of the clouds for us…that is magical thinking…of course I could very well be mistaken…and yes, I think Christ also is an Awareness…but I disagree with you about all minds having to access it before it is accessed…

are you saying that the psychological process of development cannot happen within human awareness b/c of ego?

stuck in ego?  no I don't think all are…I think some have learned to use their egos for the benefit of all…without going on an ego trip to do so…there are many caring people in this world that spend their lives and their money doing for others and such humane causes…you just don't hear about it b/c they don't do it to be heard about…

just b/c you have not found freedom does not mean that others have not…

always nice to engage with you as well Mike, *

Re: What is our True Nature?

star, actually there was very little sarcasm in that last post, but I can understand how it could be perceived based on my past sarcastic remarks.

I have very little time for the “ancient wisdom traditions” now codified in spiritual ideologies. This is because these ideologies advocate awakening as a solitary path pursued by individuals alone. As I see it, this is no different than the “rugged individualism' perpetrated throughout American history, which inadvertently emphasizes disengagement as opposed to engagement, war as opposed to peace, etc, etc.

I merely advocate awakening together in a mutual exchange of truth based on depth of engagement to dissolve alienation and estrangement. In the depth of intimacy with others, the depth of self is realized since the self was not created separate from such engagement in the first place. You are you because of a world of others, as I am me. Therefore, it seems logical that any self evolving will be in such an engagement with a world of others. Truth is realized with and through others and not alone dwelling about by oneself in the labyrinths of consciousness.

Our only purpose is to fully engage in the depth or relating with one another.

However, I realize that this is not in vogue at this time and I relate that to our general distrust, and revulsion, with one another.

Nevertheless, it will be through each other that truth is discovered…

In my most humble opinion…
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

it will be through each other that truth is discovered…

i don't disagree, but you seem to believe that this is going to happen to everyone all at once?  am i misunderstanding something here?

what is the purpose of fully engaging if we are not accomplishing anything, and the only way that anything is going to be accomplished is when we all wake up at once? this does not make sense Mike…maybe we differ in what it means to awaken…i have explained that much of it has to do with the natural psychological process…are you familiar with spiral dynamics?  not the way that it has been presented through Integral Theory, but the original research work by Clare Graves?

on the one hand you say we can awaken together, but then when anyone shares such an awakening occurring, you step in to say not possible…

you are contridicting yourself…

you say you have little time for ancient wisdom traditions, and yet you have taken the roots of those, evidenced by how you interpret Christ Consciousness and the second coming, and you have created your own interpretation of what has to happen for any to awaken…that seems a little arrogant to me…

what i am presenting is a freer way to be in the world…a way to experience time in space and continue to open to the joy of our own being…

it's really very simple and does not depend on anyone believing anything but in their own being and the potential it holds for a whole humanity…

you keep talking of our distrust like that is a reason for us not believing what you have presented to be the absolute truth…i can assure you that this is not why i don't believe what you have managed to form into your own little belief system…or maybe someone else put the bug in your ear…maybe the author of Finite and Infinite Games?

i cannot speak to that b/c i have not read it…

i am not spouting traditional ancient wisdom traditions here…i am speaking of my experience…nothing supernatural, no walking on water, or through walls…just being human…but just being human is an amazing journey…and experiencing it all, free from limiting beliefs, as yours is, telling me i have to wait to experience being awake to what i am until everyone else is…i totally disagree with you…awakening is a continuing journey…i don't know where humanity will be in years to come, i sense that it will be beyond our current imagination, but i also believe that it is within our imagination to create where we will be…

again, i might be misunderstanding you…

sincerely, star…

Re: What is our True Nature?

what is the purpose of fully engaging if we are not accomplishing anything, and the only way that anything is going to be accomplished is when we all wake up at once? this does not make sense Mike…

I believe that to deeply engage is to incur a chain reaction which alters the collective consciousness, since only through such a massive alteration of collective value systems will change occur internally and be perceived externally. Individual claims of enlightenment cannot be proved externally but only claimed internally. I think the world is ready for proof and only together will we provide such proof.

on the one hand you say we can awaken together, but then when anyone shares such an awakening occurring, you step in to say not possible…

It seems to me that proof will only be available externally for all to see and all will see only when all participate. I think the only sticking point is the term “awakening.” I have no doubt that many have had intense experiences as I have had many as well (drug induced and not drug induced). However, an “awakening,” in my opinion requires a whole world for which to experience it. In other words the whole can experience an “awakening” that the parts separately could never experience. However, if the parts (individuals) wish to label intense solitary experiences as “awakenings” then they have that prerogative and have exercised it for centuries. Only there has been no real beneficial effects on the whole that are readily and clearly apparent to the whole.
The question must be asked: with all these “awakened” ones are we any better off this year, than we were last year?

you say you have little time for ancient wisdom traditions, and yet you have taken the roots of those, evidenced by how you interpret Christ Consciousness and the second coming, and you have created your own interpretation of what has to happen for any to awaken…that seems a little arrogant to me…

True. It is my own interpretation. But I feel it has many antecedents based on various ancient texts that I feel have been misinterpreted. Nevertheless, as far as being arrogant…yep, probably so…I can't really argue with that. However, I only speculate as to how things seem to me and every member of this pod does that. Don't count yourself alone in disagreeing with me since most here do so quite strongly and often.

what i am presenting is a freer way to be in the world…a way to experience time in space and continue to open to the joy of our own being…

And in the end you may be right and I wrong. I have not really had argument against your claims on the joy of being. I only put emphasis on engaging with others as the means, as opposed to any solitary 'hero's journey,' which tends to conform to most esoteric spiritual ideologies.

i can assure you that this is not why i don't believe what you have managed to form into your own little belief system…or maybe someone else put the bug in your ear…maybe the author of Finite and Infinite Games?

Most likely a composite of many different beliefs and not any one system in particular. But I will agree…it is for now… my own “little belief system” and I am quite satisfied with its development over time, as I'm sure you have become satisfied with your own.

I'm not “telling” you anything. The nature of philosophical discussion is thesis, antithesis, synthesis and it has always been my hope for this pod to support that developmental type of discovery that we all do here…together.

i don't know where humanity will be in years to come, i sense that it will be beyond our current imagination, but i also believe that it is within our imagination to create where we will be…

Agreed. So lets engage in that imaginative creation, which we are actually doing in this very conversation, even though it may remain contentious for a time.

again, i might be misunderstanding you…

No I think you understand me quite well. However, on many aspects you disagree and I'm okay with that, even expect it. This “little belief system” of mine did not appear out of thin air. It grows and breathes and changes from year to year and even day to day. I like putting it out there for the very reason that it is open to change and the feedback I get, both positive and negative, allows for that growth and change to happen. This is the purpose of full engagement.

Keep in mind I'm not necessarily stuck on it and because it is open to change it may well be different come this time next week. Ha!
But I'm okay with that too.
So feel completely comfortable and safe in fully engaging my ideas if only to correct my delusions, if you think that's what they are…

…they may well be…

…but they are mine, nonetheless….
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

I believe that to deeply engage is to incur a chain reaction which alters the collective consciousness, since only through such a massive alteration of collective value systems will change occur internally and be perceived externally. Individual claims of enlightenment cannot be proved externally but only claimed internally. I think the world is ready for proof and only together will we provide such proof. 
again, are you claiming this is happening?  and at what point would you consider calling it an actual awakening?  iow, at what point would it go from fully engaging, which is what you claim needs to happen, and what you say we are doing on this pod, for an awakening, but then you say unless all awaken, it cannot be called an awakening…so, what good is it for a few to awaken while fully engaging in what needs to happen to awaken?
again, this sounds like magical thinking…that all of a sudden, out of no where, one day, we are all going to awaken in Oz or something…all consciousness is going to shift and wake up to…what?  something beyond being human?  
you have not addressed any of my specific questions to you, in my last post or the previous one, so i doubt you will do so for this one…how disengaging of you Mike…lol
i am not talking about intense experiences, been there done that…i am talking about a way of being in the world, a way of experiencing being human that continues to open…a journey of awakening to what we are…are you denying that a psychological process needs to take place with humans?  that we have not psychologically matured or reached our potential as human beings?  
again, you are saying no achievements have been accomplished?  really?  no benefits on the whole?  none?  i would say some are better off and some are not…some are benefiting and some are not…and i would agree that we must continue to awaken each other to the needs of the whole…but i see much that is being done…not enough…but many are trying…not just trying…many are doing…
you keep saying things like solitary and heros journey, when i have made it clear many times that this is not only what i am talking about, although it does include it…i think it is b/c we have different understandings of ego and what needs to be done there, and the normal process of psychological maturity…as well as this belief system that you have adopted…
belief is a very strange thing…once it becomes solid it is very hard to change it…but i am glad to hear that at least you hold that option for change…
i will have to disagree that i have a belief system per say, at least not like you are thinking…i just cannot hang on to much except what is experienced in this moment…
the growth you are speaking of when you get feedback, what you call the purpose of engagement…to refine your belief system…but then you…alone…are left to make sense of it…and you have in your own words, done this, which has evolved into this belief…what has awakened you to this knowledge?  and if so, is that not a contradiction of your belief system…but if you say no…then everything you say and are doing here collapses upon itself…
be well, star…

Re: What is our True Nature?

Star,

again, are you claiming this is happening?

Well…no I'm not making such a claim and, in fact, as a collective, I believe we may be regressing and, possibly because of this collective regression, many have lost faith in the collective and attach to programs which advocate “awakening” alone. To me this is exactly what the ego wants, which may lead to mutual destruction.

and at what point would you consider calling it an actual awakening?

I suppose when we ALL agree on what “awakening” is, because we ALL know. besides “awakening” is a concept to individuals that may cease to be when all experience it.

at what point would it go from fully engaging, which is what you claim needs to happen, and what you say we are doing on this pod, for an awakening, but then you say unless all awaken, it cannot be called an awakening

I don't see any indication of the depth of intimacy necessary for such a transformation in this or any pod. Too many factions competing against one another for ideological dominance. Too many agreeing coalitions disagreeing with other coalitions. However, there is the possibility Gaia could become a foundation, but this is unlikely since it is a corporation traded on the NYSE and profit motives would undermine any other demand.

so, what good is it for a few to awaken while fully engaging in what needs to happen to awaken?

I'm sorry, I don't know of anyone who is “awakened” and those that claim it for themselves, individually are egocentrically motivated. I have started many threads highlighting the egocentricity of the truth-proprietors. I don't have truth, merely a hunch on how we can go about apprehending it together.

again, this sounds like magical thinking…that all of a sudden, out of no where, one day, we are all going to awaken in Oz or something…all consciousness is going to shift and wake up to…what?  something beyond being human? 

I would not call it magical, more like…..miraculous! But only if all participate.

you have not addressed any of my specific questions to you, in my last post or the previous one, so i doubt you will do so for this one…how disengaging of you Mike…lol

I've highlighted in bold each question and do my best to answer. If the answers are not to your liking (and many do not care for my answers) this does not mean I'm NOT answering.

i am talking about a way of being in the world, a way of experiencing being human that continues to open…a journey of awakening to what we are…are you denying that a psychological process needs to take place with humans?  that we have not psychologically matured or reached our potential as human beings? 

I find this to be completely accurate and I do not deny any processes, psychological or otherwise. I only add that the self was not made in isolation from a world of others and all processes will occur through fully engaging with that world of others. You are who you are because of others, as they are who they are because of you and this shaping and molding of each other goes on from year to year, day to day, and even moment to moment. The greatest joy we experience is in sharing joy with another so why would this not apply to any “awakening” to truth. Unfortunately the deepest pain we experience is also through engagement with others and this is our dilemma.

the growth you are speaking of when you get feedback, what you call the purpose of engagement…to refine your belief system…but then you…alone…are left to make sense of it…and you have in your own words, done this, which has evolved into this belief…what has awakened you to this knowledge? 

Engaging with others is how we make sense of existence. In fact, you and I do it now. We may not admit to changes in our beliefs, but it most likely is happening whether we wish to admit to it or not. There are no belief systems created in a vacuum.

but if you say no…then everything you say and are doing here collapses upon itself…

Not really. Actually, aspects may collapse or dissolve, while other aspects grow and evolve.

Such is the nature of the self….

Be Well Also…
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

thank you Mike for that detailed reply…i at least have a better understanding of what you are proposing…

i would just say this, that awakening is a process and a journey…our human potential obviously has not been reached…maybe you will get your miracle, but is that not what all the light workers that you often refer to in your threads are working towards with their focus of energies? claiming the shift is a coming?  you claim that consciousness is digressing, but hey, if it is going to take a miraculous shift anyways, why concern yourself…let's just pray to whomever or whatever you think this awakening is going to happen or come from and move it along!!!  my best guess is that we are still going to have to roll our sleeves up and get to work and make this a reality…but hey, what do i know?  

lmao…*

Re: What is our True Nature?

i would just say this, that awakening is a process and a journey…our human potential obviously has not been reached…

Indeed. Accurate on both counts.

maybe you will get your miracle, but is that not what all the light workers that you often refer to in your threads are working towards with their focus of energies?

It is not my miracle to get. More likely our miracle to discover.
I don't know specifically know of anyone who refers to themselves as “lightworkers.” However, I use the term derogatorily to address individuals who use spirituality to deny, ignore or bypass existential issues, such as suffering.
In addition, I do not claim any “shift is a coming” and, in fact, lean more toward a pessimistic perspective that such a “shift” may be a long way off, if even possible at all. However, I'm eternally hopeful.

you claim that consciousness is digressing, but hey, if it is going to take a miraculous shift anyways, why concern yourself…

Good question. Consciousness seems to be regressing but I could be wrong. However, I am concerned about suffering and deal with the suffering of others on some level everyday. From those interactions, more than any book or belief system, I've come to see the power available to two people from those interactions when depth is a factor. I've also experienced this in my significant family relationships.

let's just pray to whomever or whatever you think this awakening is going to happen or come from and move it along!!!

Yes…praying to, and for, each other… that each of us benefit from such a process… might be helpful. However, it does seem that prayers to some divine supernatural being, to intervene, has been rather useless.

my best guess is that we are still going to have to roll our sleeves up and get to work and make this a reality…but hey, what do i know? 

I agree and, in fact, have NO doubt of this.

My best to you!
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

Starlight, late coming here to your original question, which is such an interesting one, You ask
What is our true nature?
i think of it this way, as an example
A human being has a body and it is composed from many diverse cells, hard bone cells, brain cells, cells in heart muscle that regulate heartbeat, retinal cells that pick up what we see, each cell is so different individually but working together in harmony, vital in it's contribution to the whole body.
Now if we progress that whole body, human or other creature on the next spiritual level as part of the whole universe, Oneness,or Omnipresent God within each body,or in which each body is present then maybe our diversity is also vital to the harmonious working of the whole One ?
To turn your question the other way around, need we have the same nature or is
each diverse unique nature a vitsal contribution to the harmonious working of Oneness and the universal whole being ? Should the question be what is my own true nature and how can I best apply that nature to the harmonious working of All / Oneness
Quote i dunno about that…many people are born with abilities that are not understood, and so in some ways become a curse…
Knowing you dear Starlight, I don't think you actually mean't what you said here…… it sounds like the people with different abilities are a curse, lol, maybe what you mean't to say was that our lack of understanding of them, or our lack of love and acceptance is a curse ?  Sometimes these different abilities have an up side that we miss, eg downs syndrome often have a huge capability for love and patience, bi polar may have their downs but are extremely creative people and experience highs that so-called normal people can only imagine. ADHD may have great skills in defined special areas and work at speeds the average person can only dream of, etc

Re: What is our True Nature?

Gael…LOL…yes, what you said…I did not mean that that person is a curse but that the lack of understanding those abilities…b/c when children are born with special gifts, most the time no one knows what to do with them, and so here comes the doctors and the drugs…for the most part science does not know what to do with these special children…so they drug them to control them…

oh, yes, thank you for giving that added information…and that was exactly what I meant…yes, these are special gifts that are not yet understood…

As a Systems Thinker, I found your idea of OneNess interesting…but I think we as a System of humanity have a long way to go, unfortunately, before we perform on a level that is beneficial to all its parts…

What I am saying, is that as humans, most of us spend our lives running around like chickens with their heads cut off…we don't enjoy our own nature…which is joy-filled…we don't enjoy the wonder and awe of this world…we are so caught up in our world views and our little boxed in lives that we are overcome by frustration that suffocates us…we have no time to do the things that bring us pleasure…but we can open up to that joy…open up to space and dance on the edges of time…

thank you so much for contributing Gael…much love to my Environmental Goddess…

Re: What is our True Nature?

Nicole and Mike , sorry, I didn't mean to igmore your contributions, they popped up between wlile I lost one post and tried again to explain how I experience this.
Mike, what I volunteered would fit with what you say about only finding an answer / understanding together. Nicole, appreciating the glories of interacting together, hugs.

Re: What is our True Nature?

To turn your question the other way around, need we have the same nature or is each diverse unique nature a vital contribution to the harmonious working of Oneness and the universal whole being ? Should the question be what is my own true nature and how can I best apply that nature to the harmonious working of All / Oneness

Yes…excellent question!

In fact, I would only add:
How can I apply myself to the whole so that I can finally know my true nature through the whole?

…which may be the only way it can be known…
mikeS

Re: What is our True Nature?

here, here, here, see my upraised hand….pick me……

……the answer to what is our true nature?

 I've got it….. Quite simple…….


” I ”


everything else follows in “am”

Re: What is our True Nature?

This is a very interesting conversation.  Where to begin.  I would like to think, as babies, our true nature is of the divine.  I would like to think, that people, and the corruptions on earth, change us from infancy.

I'm not so sure of this.  As a child, I understood compassion.  A boy, several doors down, did not.  I accompanied him on his paper route one day.  I saw him toss a paper to an elderly man, sitting in a bed, in a nursing home.  It hit the gentleman in the face and the man was understandably upset.  I feel, if I think about it, terrible that he did this to another human being who was already suffering.  This behavior, I did not have as part of my true nature.  Never.

Some say that “Good” and “Evil” exist naturally.  I still contemplate this.  I know that I am not perfect and I have much work to do on my character as a human being.  But I do know, that I have love in my heart, and I am the opposite of what we call evil.  I am grateful that I have an abundance of compassion.  I'm grateful that I have a conscious.

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hello Tomas,

we might have different definitions as to what divine means…

all that is, is divine, how could it not be?  even your little friend…while what he did was not very nice, I don't think you can say for sure that he lacked all compassion…maybe he was being a brat that day…it happens…maybe he had a big brother that bullied him…or maybe he really did not mean to do it, but lol afterward…

if you are human, you have within you the potential to kill in a cold blooded way…we all do…we get it from our reptilian ancestors…

thnx for contributing…*

having compassion and a conscious are things to be grateful for…

Re: What is our True Nature?

Both Positions Well Stated, Star, and MikeS.
You Disagree, Star,
and MikeS, You Disagree with Star Disagreeing,
and Wish Star would Agree to Engage,
and Star wishes that You would Just Disengage.

Star thinks She is Co-creating Herself, and Doesnt need Anyone.
We could ask why it is that She doesnt just write letters to Herself,
or Meditate Herself into a Mystical Stupor.
Perhaps She has a desire to Be Our Teacher, and Share the wonderful
bliss of Her Selfness with Us. Admirable, if We are Buying.
If We are not Buying, a Teacher cant Teach without willing Students.

MikeS is trying to Get Us to Co-create Ourselves, and I Am more inclined
to go with His approach, because Everyone goes the route of Self-Salvation,
and fails, miserably.

  Why ? Because We lie to ourselves and hide from ourselves constantly,\
 so much so that we do not even know who we really are, and have little,
 to no hope of becoming a saint,

 if we have no self-knowledge and total  self-transformation, which is impossible where people have hundreds of partitioned personas enabling them to do exactly what they want to do, and escaping all consequences in their pathetic, feeble egoic minds, full of delusion and self-deceit.

While I admire and love you both, it looks like a mexican standoff, for now.
have a taco, star….have a burrito, mike  

Re: What is our True Nature?

torch, i don't know if you are just trying to be funny or what, but i can assure you that if you are serious, what you have said about me is mistaken…i would say go back and reread my posts, i don't know how you have misinterpreted what i have said so incorrectly…

we have to participate in our own awakening…

be well…star…

Re: What is our True Nature?

a familiar poem - dissected for illumination of star
————————————————————————————
 
how is it that we come to know,
our world, established as such?
tracing thoughts that we in fact,
fix, and stabilize as must…
 
( My point, exactly - we are mistaken)


what if what appeared just was,
without ideas so fixed?
allowing for endless potential…
to dance within the mix?

( and dancing within the mix, does that imply understanding ? ) 
( at what point, did we reject our former erroneous perceptions ? )

no one to orchestrate definite beliefs,
no thoughts to consolidate…
just ever-freeing Being…
nothing definite to mandate…

( isnt this a rejection of conductors, or others beliefs ? )
( at what point, do you question your own beliefs ? )
( or are we in a stupor, floating and not rethinking ? ) 

our fixed little worlds would open…
imagination free…
to create true experiencing…
myriad possibility…

( experiencing, awareness is a well known buddhist and tribal method )
( used effectively by all disciplines - this is good )

what is that we think we know?
what can we really prove?
except that we are living now…
stuck to our thoughts like glue…

( reiterating what i said about clinging to our erroneous thoughts )

to loosen what experiences…
allowing it to dance within…
Being that arises free…
in space and time again…

( whatever does it for you )

if there is illusion…
it is that Being is trapped at all…
allow awareness of Being to see…

( so far, so good )

through established thought…

( isnt this, the original problem ? )
( are we back to square one ? )

You are a good one to talk in double-speak
 ( special words that have special meaning to you, but no special meaning to us )

Our criticism of You, is that You do not want to hear what we have to say,
because we dont use the same double-speak tsk words that you use,
 you reject our offerings, right off the bat, assuming that we are wrong,
because we come at the same problem from a different way, 
and end up in the same place that you are trying to get,
but you shut us down, not even realizing that we are supporting the same methods that you are embracing for wisdom and liberation.

 absurd !! You are rejecting your own methods out of our mouths, and you dont even see that, because you cant see past your self. 

 which proves that you are not enlightened, because enlightened ones hear what others have to say, and evaluate it, before they decide to reject it, but you have obviously failed the test of listening, and failed the test by being selfish, and not being open to the being of experience with us, so where are you being, other than being stubborn, judgemental, and rigid ?

 you have proven my point, that the ego is stubborn beyond belief, and you are merely replacing poems that make you feel good, for your old reality, and rigidly embracing them, like a child with a new toy,
but you cannot see what you are doing is shutting you off from the world,
as surely as your old beliefs did.

 you are not being, you are replacing being with poems of being, in a revery separate from reality.

You dont like reality, so you are escaping from reality, and us. 
 Your insistence on avoiding us proves the point.

transference. You dont listen to Us, so You accuse Us of Not listening.
We hear You loud and clear.  But what we hear is flat rejection of Us.

Re: What is our True Nature?

lol…

Re: What is our True Nature?

These interactions raise a lot of questions for me. I continue to learn,try to be true to self yet realise I am not an island but part of a wider whole, I try to contribute to community to the best of my ability, while attempting to walk my talk,  respecting others and the planet.  We talk about awakening but have we any idea of what we wish to awaken to ? Change in the present day is rapid, how do we navigate this, alone can we effect change?  together, can we agree ?
I found this on the web and thought perhaps others here might be interested in participating. I would be happier if the link said global rather than integral, but that is said with respect for integral theory as I have for other theories and belief systems, though somehow I feel we need to grow beyond divisions and separations to reach consensus

http://www.greatintegralawakening.com/thankyou.html

Re: What is our True Nature?

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hugs Dov Bear, awake to you and and happy you are here, what a subtle and wonderful question. To answer your question, for me personally,
when sleeping,  literally I am not, not even aware of dreams - until I awake again then I am,  alive, conscious, open, to all and hopefully utilising all that creation endowed me with to appreciate and  interact with others and surroundings. I do my best, strive to do better and endeavour to make amends when I make mistakes. I certainly don't have all the answers spiritually, so wouldn't presume to teach or lead others. I am more likely to throw out questions for us to ponder
I do find a certain peace and harmony close to nature and try to work with nature to conserve,  to live sustainably and not pollute our environment

Re: What is our True Nature?

Re: What is our True Nature?

Dov, I love the way you think, and your insights from the Torah and rabbis!

And I love those gummy bears! :)

My answer is maybe it does exist but yes honouring our human nature and doing our best is a great way to go.

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

Re: What is our True Nature?

I am not afraid, Dov, embracing mind altering gummy bears! lol

Being human is glorious. But I believe our life doesn't end with death so in that belief system, perhaps more room for growth… but then again I could be wrong!

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

hi Dov, Nicole, Zephyr and all.
my reply to Dov is that it seems to me that pure nature (rather than using the word true) does exist, but never separate from humanness and all that humanness entails… the pure nature of one being no less pure than the pure nature of another…

noticing that ( or perhaps believing that) allows one human to honor humanness in general, and humanness in the other, or perhaps recognize the purity of the other… even though superficial thoughts overlayed on top are not the same… (even though even the THOUGHTS are not separate from pure nature) … and from there - perhaps an opening for compassion regardless of view… and the generous nature of allowing other views (while not holding one's own as superior - now that's tricky)

…mmm… these words - which cannot be proven - they show the deepness of my indoctrination into buddhist belief…  again - coming down to belief… something that makes profound sense to me.

then of course there still is the relational working through… the attempt to use words and ideas… the identification with them… the various connections, feelings, emotions, needs, desires, preferences. 

it is fascinating.  (to me)

Re: What is our True Nature?

fascinating to me!

we are all limited by our beliefs. it is in the perceiving of them and gently exploring the edges to see where we can push them out a bit farther that is one of the things I love the most about Gaia.

Love,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

Re: What is our True Nature?

hi Dov
that is such a deliciously different description that i am not able to digest what you are saying right away… 

mmm… tasting your words …

 - ”that if I can see and honor my own Humaness I can also see Another's Humanness as in a mutual and equal mirror image that creates companionship”

yeah… 

the essence of humanness…  or even the essence of sentience…  not a glib “i honor myself and others”  - but a sense of the depth where there is communion… verbally (through communication), or otherwise…
where there is both the sense of individuality and also the sense of bonding - bound in relationship   -

using bound not in terms of a negative word, but rather in terms of description of what really is happening - in other words - we are in fact bound to each other… creating the present and future through all of our actions - no matter how small - a larger sense of companionship perhaps.

thanks for the opportunity to think in new terms…. and i really like that image… describes what i am saying - one relationship at a time….  to realize that in all relationships…  the mirror.

Re: What is our True Nature?

The Pool of Life
—————————————————————————————————————

Imagine a Pool of Yourself, where You Look into it,
 Every day, and see Yourself, Feeling Yourself,
 and One day, You get the Idea,
to Share that Pool with a Dear Friend,
 and They Look into It, Feeling Themselves.

 Eventually, You Bring All of Your Friends,
 and They See, and Feel Themselves, in the Pool of Self.

One Day, You are All Alone, and You go,
 to Look in the Pool, and You are Lonely,
 and Miss Your Friends.

 When You Look into the Pool,
 You See, and Feel  All of Your Friends,
 Being Them, One at a Time. You Sit Down,

 Crying, Realizing Than You Never Really Knew Them,
 This Way, and You Open Your Heart to Them, 
and They Open Up Their Heart to You,
 and From That Day, forward,
You will never be Alone, or Lonely, Again……..  

Re: What is our True Nature?

Hello again Torch,

Wow, this is so true…for me anyway and obviously you have some experience of it. I think I took some pride in knowing someone, thinking that it was the one proof of friendship. When you take that away the only connection is God and God cannot be known…in the same way when creating a label for someone we miss all the things that are not included within that box. I think I would like to know someone other than what cannot be known, I would like them to be able to express whatever they want to express in that moment without a summation of character. What about the movie 50 first dates, every morning she awoke she would fall in love with him again!

Re: What is our True Nature?

or this might work too!  :-)

Re: What is our True Nature?

Dov, Arpita, Nicole, Torchholder, appreciating all your beautiful contributions here, and thinking it feels right that each one of us be true to self and our own humanity, then thinking when I access insights it's usually when I am relaxed, brain idling, I figure that is when higher self / universal intelligence / God can connect with me, when I allow space, listen and be available. Notice I don't claim any special abilities, it happens to me not the other way around, and I believe it can and does happen to us all if we make ourselves available, allow space and that possibility, it won't happen if we believe there is nothing there to access. Also thinking we expect us all to think alike, and maybe instead we should appreciate our differences, within our own body there are so many different cells warrior cells protecting us, brain cells, heart cells all different but with vital contributions to our whole body - thinking as above so below.

Re: What is our True Nature?

Gael, yes, true to self and our humanity, open to our Source.

Love,

Nicole

Re: What is our True Nature?

Starlight, my humble apologies - I've taken till now to respond to this question because I did not know how but I've just realised in this moment and quickly run over while I remember to say -
 it is indescribable - this True nature of ours.

it is Beyond the Beyond… anything we say can only be relative, a reflection - a minuscule fragment
- I sense the never ending attempts at it have birthed the divine dance of poetry which bleeds from the hearts of lovers and poets throughout time
 
We see our true nature in everything

mm here -