Gaia: Fully Engaged - RELATIONSHIPS - Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://singerseeker.gaia.com — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:40:37 GMT

Yes, Nahnni, good point.

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://theothersideofamirror.gaia.com — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:16:10 GMT

Greetings and Welcome~

"Wow, this discussion is an amazing collection of rationalizations from the surface mind. One could spend a long time looking at each one of these points, for instance to note how readily the theme of domination finds prominence, as the ego toys with its object-models and can see no other solution.

Instead I want to mention an experience of mine."

Interesting.

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://jayceeii.gaia.com — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:53:33 GMT

Wow, this discussion is an amazing collection of rationalizations from the surface mind. One could spend a long time looking at each one of these points, for instance to note how readily the theme of domination finds prominence, as the ego toys with its object-models and can see no other solution.

Instead I want to mention an experience of mine. I hike a lot, typically alone, and I get a bad feeling when I see people coming down the trail. Oddly, I have heard other hikers giving this complaint, saying that they “too” feel awkward and unhappy to see other hikers, and for a long time I presumed this was a reflection of my own experience, that “hell is other people” was a shared perception by many and I was little different.

Reasoning about it, one would suppose that two such hikers, feeling unhappy to see one another, are enough alike that they ought to rejoice to be together, perhaps then looking askance at yet other hikers. But, it is not this way. I have found that the source of my anxiety, and that of these other hikers, is not the same.

I am anxious because other people are unlikable. Souls are fundamentally cantankerous, foul-minded and ill-tempered. They do not get along easily. These other hikers whom I've heard complaining, complained from within the knot of nuclear family or familiar friends, against the mere sense experience of another who is not known. This is why two hikers, feeling anxiety over another's approach, yet are not suited to one another. Each is shielded by their likes/dislikes samskara.

For a long time I deceived myself, that I was no different. But I have learned that I have the mental power to welcome a stranger, that I am not put off by the mere sense experience of another's presence. I've also learned of the presence of pure souls on this planet, who exhibit noble attributes and are likeable. These same ones, are rejected by the ego as cold for their detachment, ornery for their insistence upon dharma, slow for their profound thought, and “crazy” for their energies.

What I mean by “likable,” is something that the ego does not like, nor will I be liked by any ego when I speak my mind naturally or act according to my primary choices. Yet the pure souls are not hell for me, although man rejects them. Knowing they are incapable of harm, I'm happy to meet one anytime.

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://tlcoriginals.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 17:32:21 GMT

LOL...we can put it to rest, but I think we might be burying it while it is still kicking and screaming!

I agree with everything you have stated concerning conditioning, and I am not 'seperating' awareness, just acknowledging that your perceptions are not mine...your awareness is not inside mine on this level and vice versa...both have been conditioned according to the dictates of experience, and that conditioning 'seperates' us into your's and mine, and that is a GOOD thing, otherwise we would not be human and enjoy that experience. And while all is interconnected, I have a journey and life of experiences that you don't share...yes?

Now, our interaction can help to open that awareness and might even result in 'shared' perceptions or beliefs, etc.

However, I have 'learned' to open up to the sky as well and experience a freedom that is beyond any freedom another human could ever give me.

This 'heaven', this 'joy', is within awareness...we can drop the 'my', b/c I do not own it...it is a magical gift that is available to all...it is a magical world filled with wonder and awe and it is all within awareness...

I suppose my point is, heaven and hell is found within awareness...joy must come from within being...human...

Also, if you want to take it back, you have to take it all the way back. We have a reptillian brain as well as a mamilian one. Our actual parents and conditioning began long before any humans roamed the earth. If you take it back further...we are the stuff of stars...lol

joy*

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://theothersideofamirror.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:56:04 GMT

Hello Mike~

Although, there are many so-called “masters” who claim that the presence (or should I say absence) of no-thought or no-mind is the state of enlightenment or awakening. I doubt that though.

I am wondering if the notion of "no thought" or "no mind" is a misnomer made innocently by these ancient masters for what we now recognize as Alpha, Beta and Theta waves which occur in stages under meditation practice. Like with any discipline, the affective changes exist only as long as the practice exists. It would not be like penicillin, that when the prescribed therapy is over the problem is most likely solved. Because the genuine calming of the mind, which affects the body, actually occurs through serious meditation practice, it is viewed as "awakening." In a way, one could describe it as that; however, once it is ceased as a discipline it only becomes a tale told and this, I think, is where the new age masters fail because their actual demeanor and agendas are not consistent with a quiet mind, but with a non-quiet striving mind, where the ego is quite attached to the material and personal notoriety (ie: best seller lists and houses in Hawaii courtesy of the benevolent Tao).

Perception is interpretive only because it is borne through observation. Intuition, on the other hand, can rise from its own accord (ie: one has a feeling one cannot explain. Wisdom, like the Owl, dictates watch, wait and listen). Intuition is, therefore, less dependent on observation than perception. We can alter our perception, but may bemoan second-guessing intuition.

I think your point that our interaction with others can bring a heaven or hell to our existence is a valid one, just as the lack of interaction can bring about a deep sense of anguish and a sense of alienation (ie: the loneliness of many elderly).

Peace~

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://singerseeker.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:59:30 GMT

I don't think it's possible to know for many reasons, and one of them is body limits.

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:01:29 GMT

Nicole,

Sleep is recuperative to the body. The mind never sleeps and though we may not recall our dreams, we are nevertheless, mentally engaged 24/7. The mind never ever stops thinking. Although, there are many so-called "masters" who claim that the presence (or should I say absence) of no-thought or no-mind is the state of enlightenment or awakening. I doubt that though.
Therefore, although we know the limits of the body, we have as of yet no idea of the limits of the mind and if we continue to orient ourselves primarily through the body we may never know.

mikeS

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://singerseeker.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:53:50 GMT

Hi Mike,

The mind cannot exceed the limits of the body. For example if you tried to live without sleep, you would eventually pass out. A disembodied mind could do it, but that is not our situation.

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:36:36 GMT

Burn-out arises when that capacity is reached.

Yes and that seem logical and contrasts with the limited capacity of the body. However, the mind never rests, so possibly the capacity is infinite. Yet, were are so entrenched in a bodily orientation that it's easy to see how we might transpose upon the mind the same limits as the body. This is why I make the distinction between being more fixated on the body as opposed to the mind (even though it is the mind that facilitates the fixation).

When you say deeply engaged, are you speaking of listening deeply to what it is another is saying when speaking (or playing out) their story? That when spoken (or played out), you recognize yourself in that story as well?

This is a very important point and I cannot give a concise answer, because I don't have one. In fact, finding that answer was the motive for my starting this pod. Of course, I imagine deep engagement would consist of deep listening or "seeking to understand and then be understood" (Covey) and no doubt, although the details of our stories may vary, they are all pretty much the same in many ways. But there is also more to deep engagement that I haven't even considered.

My initial premise is that the self was not constructed in isolation but in engagement with other selves and i think this is apparent. Then, however, we arrive at an interpretation that there are many selves that we do not like, in fact, we fluctuate between general distrust and disgust of others and a desire to share our deepest joy with others because our deepest joy would not be possible without them.

saying....
mikeS

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://singerseeker.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:12:56 GMT

Hi Mike, really looking forward to your more complete responses to the points that Nahnni and starlight made because they were able to express better than I the objections that I had to your premise.

Peace angel,

Nicole

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:10:30 GMT

Starlight,

Yes, many would consider perceiving as entirely mediated by bodily sensation and therefore, hardwired from birth or conditioned. We seem to perceive automatically, which attests to the depth of our conditioning. Of course, every sensation must be interpreted by the mind and it is that part of perception, or the total package, that can be changed.

Whether or not I experience heaven or hell has nothing to do with other people, places, or things, or lack of them…heaven and hell reside within my own awareness and I am responsible for how I perceive whatever…joy*

I think the idea that "my own awareness" is something separate and apart from others is a general misinterpretation. The experience of heaven and hell will be "perceived" as your own, and this adheres to the paradigm of individuality we all are bound to. However, as much as we would wish to deny our interdependence with others (because others often disgust us) it is factual.
From whence does a preference for cooked fish over sushi originate? Did you learn of this in complete solitude from a world of others? Every preference you have was learned. But from where was it learned? In fact, much of the content of your mind is a product of present, as well as past, others. How would you know which "situations" are preferred while others may not be? It was a world of others who taught you the difference between heaven and hell. Who taught you that death must be "grieved"? Who taught you what your "self' actually is? From where did you collect the information to construct your personal 'self'? Did you create yourself in complete isolation from a world of others? You know the difference between heaven and hell because you were taught that there is a difference.
We are products of a world of others and could not possibly construct a personal self in isolation from that experience of others.

Now that I have clearly shown through example that we are a composite of one another, we can finally put this bad boy to rest...LOL!

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://theothersideofamirror.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 03:41:15 GMT

Hi Mike~

I don't imagine the Neanderthal man as unhappy...or necessarily discontent, although there is recent evidence that others may have been discontent with his existence. I think if one's basic needs are met, one is at least content to some degree. The advent of materialism raises the stakes, as does philosophy and/or theosophy. If Maslow's hierarchy is looked on as a measure over how one may function amiably within one's own collective or even one's personal existence, then yes, happiness or at best, comfort, in psychological ease might be present when basic needs are met.

"...all based on the interpretive capacity of Johnny"

True, but that's about all we have. Burn-out arises when that capacity is reached.

"...he must engage deeply with others"

When you say deeply engaged, are you speaking of listening deeply to what it is another is saying when speaking (or playing out) their story? That when spoken (or played out), you recognize yourself in that story as well?

I suppose this is what Mother Theresa did, or at least on behalf of others, she did. Then again, at the end of her life she questioned it all. Was this because she didn't question it before? Was it a revelation to her that she had essentially changed nothing? That people would want her sainted so their own lives could be influenced by supplication and prayer, still by her efforts? Is this why we turn sons of carpenters into sons of God, because someone has to wash it all away?

"...he realizes this is a reflection of himself and to heal his mind he must see others differently"

This I understand, and I realize it is extremely difficult to maintain with constancy. Just when you think you can no longer be amazed, you are amazed. I do believe, I honestly do believe, that the continual effort does affect a change, and does seem to lessen judgments and conflicts. One does begin to say, ok, if that's your thing, and really mean it. And it is true, that when you see something that displeases you, often it is reflective, or at best, feared to fall into.

Thanks for sharing your reflection and experience. I really mean that.

Blessings~

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://tlcoriginals.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 03:24:48 GMT

Actually Mike, perception IS an interpretation or explanation of what has been processed through the immediate sensation of a stimulus within one's own awareness. That is how I understand it. The senses gather the information/data, and perception makes sense of it...Perception translates, or interprets sensation into organized experience. (see this for further explanation or interpretation...lol)

Now we might just be playing around with words here, but I am interested in your interpretation of the rest of what I challenged. LOL...I think I clearly showed through example that not every stress or discontentment has to do with our relationships to and with other people. What say you?

Maybe perception is more of a inwardly/sensing/intuitive word, where interpretation is more of an intellectual/outwardly/expressive word... what is your interpretation of my perception? This post has been my interpretation of what my perception is...

*

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 02:26:26 GMT

Nahnni,

You ever worked directly with the public for an extended period of time, Mike? If you have, then you know people are a little crazy…or a lot, sometimes. It can be a place where even Angels fear to tread.

Actually, I have worked as a Penna. state licensed psychotherapist for 25 yrs in numerous settings, so yes, I do understand that "people are a little crazy" since i work with what many might consider are the 'craziest,' 6 days a week.

Overexposure to public demand/interaction makes Johnny a misanthrope right quick…just as underexposure might make him quite dull.

True, but then, all based on the interpretive capacity of Johnny. Which, unfortunately may be a trained response. Yet, Johnny has come to realize his misanthropy was a misinterpretation and purely of his own mind. So he finally comes to realize that to heal is disgust he must engage deeply with others and, though he still finds disgust with humanity, he realizes this is a reflection of himself and to heal his mind he must see others differently (I speak personally).

Maslow's hierarchy of needs being met or unmet (at least to some degree) has a tremendous impact on our psychological state of perceived heaven and/or hell.

I'm not so sure Maslow based happiness on level of need. Are we saying that those who sought just to survive were unhappy because of this endeavor? Was neanderthal man unhappy?

Thanks,
MikeS

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 02:11:39 GMT

Actually, starlight, it is not our "perception" of a situation that brings stress, but our interpretation of what we perceive that causes stress. The senses (or perception) just collects data, the mind processes, makes an interpretation and informs the body how to emote and act.

Obviously, if your dog dies and you loved your dog, you will suffer through an interpretation that your dog is gone and you have a loss that must be grieved. However, not all people make that type of interpretation about death and some even find it a joyous event.

It is true heaven resides within your own awareness. But once we apply an interpretation to that awareness we may be choosing hell instead.

But now, I'm just saying and I can't prove any of this.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://theothersideofamirror.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 02:01:26 GMT

You ever worked directly with the public for an extended period of time, Mike? If you have, then you know people are a little crazy...or a lot, sometimes. It can be a place where even Angels fear to tread. Overexposure to public demand/interaction makes Johnny a misanthrope right quick...just as underexposure might make him quite dull.

Although I understand and agree to the variable complexities with human interaction and stress response, I also understand Nicole's point. Maslow's hierarchy of needs being met or unmet (at least to some degree) has a tremendous impact on our psychological state of perceived heaven and/or hell.

And so what is the balance? If Calgon can't take you away, maybe a closed door will, at least to place things in perspective.

"If only you could be free of their judgments, but then this will mean freeing them from your own, because they will reflect back to you the contents of your mind, each and every time."

This is true, very true. Seems like a carousel at times, surely.

Peace~

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://tlcoriginals.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:58:16 GMT

I say no. That was why I had reservations with agreeing with you 100%, even though you made some excellent points and it was very well written. However. It is our perceptions of whatever situation we find ourselves in that brings stress or discontentment and prevents us from experiencing our own Joy of Being...even if you are out in nature camping, your fire goes out, you began to worry b/c now you have no way to cook the fish you just caught and you don't like sushi...lol. Your dog dies, whatever. Whether or not I experience heaven or hell has nothing to do with other people, places, or things, or lack of them...heaven and hell reside within my own awareness and I am responsible for how I perceive whatever...joy*

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:37:20 GMT

"Money"? You mean that fiat currency we use to engage in exchanges with...

...other people.

In which, if you do not have enough, other people may refuse to engage with you or may even treat you poorly? You mean the "money" that people use to value themselves along a hierarchy of worth, were some are worth more than others based on the money they have amassed and the objects they surround themselves to symbolize their wealth?

Of course, as we all know money is not evil, but love of money is and who but other people love money? (sometimes more than other people)

Directly or indirectly, stress is always related to other people (but as I say in the original post, so is joy).

No?
mikeS

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://singerseeker.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:10:42 GMT

Stress is always related to other people? Not in my world, stress is related to money difficulties, stuff I need to get done on the house and know will cost too much, things on the endless to-do list that shows no signs of shrinking, and so on, and so forth.

Re: Hell is Other People. But Then, So Is Heaven

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:34:52 GMT

Starlight,

Nope, "pretty much" won't get us enlightened.

However, it is a definitely closer to heaven than to hell.

And that's a good thing!

Thanks,
mikeS