Wealth for All

This is a bit of a cross-post from the Terms of Use thread, as I feel it was going off-topic:

What I sense happening on that thread is connected to another concern - about Gaia 'making money' because of our input.

Lauviah's p.s. on the ToU thread about Google Ads is pertinent. I feel that we ALL should be making money from our input on Gaia.  How about the owners of blogs getting revenue from those ads, for example?

I sense that there is a huge potential here for Gaia, for all of us. I have some ideas along these lines, including how it might be possible for Gaia to develop something like Kiva.org - where we can as individuals 'donate' to micro-lending projects or individuals. I know Zet has some ideas in this area, so I'm going to invite him over….

Re: Wealth for All

Hmmm… I'm gonna just shoot straight from the Accounting-Hip on this one …  my response is solely my own opinion on this thread… so….

In order to share the wealth - people should also be willing to share the expense that it has taken to build, market, fall, get back up, rebuild and rebrand… and continue to incur expenses to keep it rolling even now.

How do we split that?

I mean, yeah, it would be nice to share the money made from the google ads… or any other ads … but what expense have I incurred to be allowed that revenue?  We have been given, freely given, this space to host our thoughts, ideas, and creative endeavors …. tools to “market” ourselves to incredible numbers of like-minded individuals… and ways to create offline connections that we may have never considered before…. again…. freely.

Yes, we contribute content … which is what makes this community nourishing … gives it life.  But (again IMHO) that does not automatically give us the right to share in the revenue stream that is meant to foot the expenses to keep the site alive.

That's my two cents on the topic.  … from an accounting perspective.

Re: Wealth for All

The way I see it is in a variety of different ways - yes absolutely from an accounting point of view there are factors that would have to be fully taken into account (!), including transparency around all the financials, including the market 'worth' of the Gaia 'entity'.. (baby, oh she's just a baby, I shouldn't call her an entity !)

However what excites me is a kind of quantum leap of vision & approach, which may include the above, but which takes a look at the community as potentially being something even more extraordinary than it already is.

I believe the potential is right here,  it just needs focus and dialogue and lateral / creative thinking. As my dear DavidC has said, no-one had any idea what the internet could do or be used for - people thought you could only make money doing sex vids etc, but now, look at it - it's beyond all our imaginings, except for perhaps a very few who 'felt' the potential. My brother was one of the pioneers in creating internet networks, I imagine he had an inkling.

So — for example, there are the ideas that came out of the Seeds threads, particularly Zet White's Seeds and Gardens thread in the ThinkTank where the seeds could represent some kind of 'weight' towards choosing projects to fund, or as Michael Sheppard suggested on another seed thread I believe, that the seeds could represent 'stock'.

I'm very interested in being able to donate and support people here, in my community. I would love it if I could not only 'seed' but easily send money to people who I feel are doing incredible work - sharing information or creating new information via blogs, people who tirelessly share themselves here in other ways, or people in 'need' because of their living circumstances and so on. I'm not in a financial position to donate large amounts, but if only a small percentage of the community here sent a few dollars to someone or to a project… wow, that would be amazing. A percentage of an individual  'donation' could be put towards projects that the whole community creates or chooses, or towards the running costs of the system etc.

Another idea is the 'Barter' system – where someone could offer their work within a well thought-out barter system and exchange it for the work/services/product of someone else here within the community.

I just received an email from Jeff Mishlove who has entered the nonprofit, Intuition Network in a  charitable giving contest. If 1,000 individuals contribute a small amount ($10 I think), the Network will be eligible for a grant from the Case Foundation (of up to $50,000)…. very exciting to think and act on such possibilities and create more….

So I'm looking at how this community can be more self-sustainable, and also spread out the 'wealth' into the world. How can we support the people who have the greatest ability to create change? Usually by man/womanhours and by money.  There are so many incredible people here with great ideas – we have the 'force' and power to support them to manifest those ideas, over and above the 'tools' offered by Gaia itself - and we could use additional 'tools' that are integrated into the system - which would be great regarding donating, for example.

Essentially, I feel we are the potential – and something very big is possible.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All

Sandra,

Thank you for taking more of your precious time to yet again raise these issues.  I wish that I could be more optimisitic and “positive” about this, but it seems that we are just pounding a drum that is not getting any response.  I find this way of “doing business” to be amateurish and disheartening.  There is a huge issue here imo and nothing will come of it til Gaia/Gaiam mgt decides to do something.  Imo, the worst possible answer, one that would incline me to just take off and find somewhere else to “do my thing” would be no answer at all.  That is what seems to be the case.  I have truly enjoyed working with you and the rest of the member team, but as yet, I see nothing forthcoming from Gaia or Gaiam as to the issues that we have raised.  Until then, I will have nothing futher to offer or contribute.

Love,
Michael

Re: Wealth for All

Ah, clarity … this is very helpful to read your response, thank you for this…  in this part, I do agree with you … as ways to allow / help conscious entrepreneurs to “market” and “sell their wares” to the people on the community … or help raise funds for people who are pursuing their dreams and bliss.

And this I have already done also…. in addition to Jeff Mishlove's email, to which I also immediately donated … I have also supported fellow members by:

*attending fundraising “walk-a-thons” for animals
*purchasing art from a very inspired spiritual teacher/guide
*attending/purchasing workshops/session from a powerful breath & bodyworker
*purchasing fabulous books (as well as being gifted several books from members!!!)
*attending social gatherings and getting to find out about more events to support members
*purchasing music - most recently a compilation created by one active member that was comprised of ALL Zaadz members who are also musicians.

This is but a small list of what *I* have done… and that's just me, I know there are MANY other members out there who have been actively supporting fellow members who have asked for monetary assistance towards goals or dreams or just selling their wares.

Yes, there could be a “feature” that could evolve that would allow the “selling” to occur within the Gaia site itself … but, again, I already know that there are issues with financial responsibilities when it comes to setting up features like this.  Paypal is a good example of how easy … and yet how “fee-filled” those transactions can be.  I know it's on the radar, so to speak…. I've mentioned it msyelf in a few conversations with co-workers (including people that I see as “in charge” of new features as we grow forward).

We already support and promote Kiva to all of our members.  We've also just recently supported the Givemeaning/Parade magazine effort.  That is the baby-steps we are capable of doing in the present, right here right now, moment.

We also have numerous pods where people have tried to market their ideas/projects …. I do like the idea of having a specific area where we can collectively go to find those projects and such events that are requesting funding… and as members we can choose what we would like to offer money towards.  Right now that's just in people's blogs, pods, etc. 

I'm not sure I follow the 'stock' idea … but, I will read up more on that.  Anything is possible here… and we've proven that in the examples of what our members have accomplished together (Clovis, in Uganda is a PRIME example of not only fundraising, but also materializing a project into reality).

We have acted upon great ideas and produced amaazing results …. I think the ideas that are coming up now are great.  Unfortutnately right now we, as members, have to be sought out for donations … or lucky enough to come across a post or profile of someone who is dreaming big and hoping for assistance from this community.

It will get better and more organized.  I believe deeply in this.  We are still moving forward in the baby-steps that we are able to make at this time in our development.  We see the bigger goals and ideas from our members and LOVE them… but we need time to finish developing and working out the bugs on our current features before we jump into newer features.

Thanks again for the clarification … the first post kinda sounded like a “member-owned” social networking community …. which is a cool idea… but takes a great deal of risk across the board to make that happen!  :)

Blessings!
~K

Re: Wealth for All

Hey Michael, and Sandra, and everyone in the family,

Building a revenue and profit model for Gaia can be challenging, as we do not want to create a business model that clones what everyone else is doing.

Knowing the Zaadz team as we do, they have been consistent from the beginning.. and have created the space for the community to plan, define and execute our business model, instead of telling everyone what it is.    Given the fun we had with Gaia's birthday, we know that a top down directive on business will not be well received by the majority of us.

So.. I am sure a number of us are familiar with facilitation, and business and strategic planning… and that we can organize ourselves to create a business model that works for us.

I suggest we take on the following:

Set up a new pod… “Gaia - Getting down to Business”:  with the objective of taking the community through a process of defining a business model, and recommendations on how to execute that plan.

1) seek volunteers who are willing to put some time into moving the goal forward
2) get a clear statement of vision and  from the Gaia team
3) map out a step by step process for building a business plan.. and using the pod to seek input, and to reach alignment amongst the family.
4) develop a very simple model for the business (Gaia Main Street.. so that the progress can be clearly and simply communicated to everyone as we move through the process.
4) ensure ongoing support and involvement from the Gaia Team, so that the recommendations can be adopted, and built into our site.

We can't build a business without focus..and I know this type of approach is what the Gaia Team is hoping we will co-create together.

Thoughts? Volunteers?

Dave

Re: Wealth for All

…money is just energy…splitting profits 140,000 ways is just silly…what if We could put this energy to work?…what is zaadz/gaia all about?…making a difference and changeing the world…this could be a way to put our money where our hearts are…there could be consensus on different projects quarterly…

  …a good way to see where the hearts of the new owners are also… as in matching funds etc…brings up a question…

…who are these new owners?…let's put a face on them…just who are they…wouldn'y it be a bummer to find it's really Proctor Gamble…or Shell Oil?…

…will the owners of Gaiam please step into the Light?…we want to see your human faces…

Re: Wealth for All

Dave, Will, Michael, thank you.

Michael's note might seem odd without some context - more or less what you are talking about, Dave, came up fully in the task-force mediation group that I and Grey set up. We are awaiting input from the team at this point.  I brought this up here partly because I feel there are numerous possibilities which we hadn't even begun to look at and it would be great to see what others are interested in or what more could be developed….

For example, is anyone interested in being able to donate funds in a way that is integrated into the architecture and tools of Gaia?

Is anyone interested in integrating something along the lines of KIVA here? Or a barter system?

Yes we can do this without any technology or input from the team, but this is the kind of thing that could take an enormous leap if all of us were involved - by us I mean the community, team, Gaiam Inc etc. I have heard from Siona that Jirka is indeed interested in seeing how what we generate here can be expanded into local communities in some way or another.

I suspect most people are just wanting to see how the shift from Zaadz to Gaia develops and I appreciate this, it's a huge step and it will be a while before things settle down. Mostly I'm brainstorming here, seeing if there are other ideas or if anyone is interested at all in what I'm talking about.

I am wondering if this thread should be in the ThinkTank pod, and I'm fine if the moderators want to move it there.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All

I posted this comment over on Mushin's blog earlier today, but I'd like to share it here, too.

I don't know whether we'll be able to “solve the problem” of monetizing community here. (I put that phrase in quotation marks because I don't really see it as something with a solution; to my mind it's a process that requires an ongoing balance and consideration, and that the 'solution' is, in many ways, the mere practice of keeping that proverbial ball in play.) I say that in part because we're a US-based, for-profit, public corporation, bound by certain legal obligations, and there are myriad legal constraints around what we can and can't do when it comes to ownership and decision-making and privacy and the rest.

At the same time, this doesn't mean we shouldn't talk!! What if this was the beginning of a new model? Even if Gaiam itself, as it stands as a corporate entity, can't implement the model that we discover or dream up or design, the mere exercise of creating a set of by-laws or creating a proposal from which another organization (be it a non-profit or privately-owned business or some here-to-fore unacknowledged structure) might spring would be, to my mind, incredibly valueable.

So I'm looking at how this community can be more self-sustainable, and also spread out the 'wealth' into the world. How can we support the people who have the greatest ability to create change? Usually by man/womanhours and by money.  There are so many incredible people here with great ideas – we have the 'force' and power to support them to manifest those ideas, over and above the 'tools' offered by Gaia itself - and we could use additional 'tools' that are integrated into the system - which would be great regarding donating, for example.

Re: Wealth for All

Dear Siona,

I do not see our “situation” so much as a “problem to be solved” as an opportunity to be seized and nurtured.  No one is imagining doling out stock to every member at this point.  Though, it might be a good idea to allow each member to earn a “certificate of value” once they completed a relatively comprehensive profile “application.” 

Additional “certificates of value” might be earned by those who might chose to take training courses in skills particularly valuable to the networking and communication enterprise of Gaia.  The recipient of these “certificates” could then invest this “share” with their “home group” so to speak, when they found one, or anywhere on-site that they might choose. 

This group-centered accumulation of “certificates of value” could provide the foundation for Gaia to pro-rata “share the wealth” in some fashion with the group in such a way that the group could determine how it wanted to re-distribute its accumulated “value” back to Gaia for investment in a specific program established by Gaia, its members, or a combination of the two. 

In exchange for this monkey motion, Gaia would commit to assign a value in equivalent dollars to the programs indicated by the direction of member interest.

In this way, a certain percentage of the Gaia budget could be co-administered by membership who stand to benefit most from the decisions made by management or a joint team of mgt/mbr's that would administrate this “capital” flow.  It does not need to be complicated or “risky” in any way.  No one coming on this site is expecting, or should expect, to be “paid” in any way for the fact of their membership.  Incentives, however, might be provided for those so inclined to really “get on board” and start rowing this tub into the big, bright future.

Take Sandra's “Diving Deeper” group for instance.  It is a veritable hot bed of creativity and exchange.  It is also a site that many of us would like to call home and would assign what ever certificates of value we might accrue though the conversion of seeds, for instance, or the securing of other “certificates” via other means.

The old IIZ is another such group.  (what will we call ourselves now?  IIG?)  The IIG/Z is hands down the most prolific group in Gaia at the present and has been for sometime the hotbed of Zaadz.  What makes both “Diving Deeper” and IIG/Z such appropriate models is that they are both committed to the Zaadz ideal of getting it up and getting it on - communally speaking that is.  These two groups are not alone in their willingness to play ball and set about the business of doing-business-with the profound changes that are underway on the planet these days.

Gaia will go about the business of attracting prospective members to the site, but it is the membership and the welcome that newcomers will recieve that will keep them here or encourage them to vacate.  It is not just membership that makes for ad revenues but activity of membership that drives the numbers.  More evolved member relations will increase activity imo.  Improved member relations will be driven by the efforts of a population of dedicated visionaries representing both members and mgt who see the power of attraction and not just the limitations of promotion.

Members, properly motivated, can undertake their own efforts to attract newcomers to the site in a way that Gaia cannot duplicate with its own advertising.  In the end, its a numbers game.  Can we push the membership to a million by the end of '08?  Working together, I believe that this would be possible.

love,
Michael

Re: Wealth for All

Let's say 5% of the membership got behind a “subscription-to-membership drive and an individual could obtain a so-called “certificate of value (CoV)” for each 20 new members that the individual could get to sign up for Gaia by the end of '08, that would be, let's see … 150,000 new members by  that approach alone.  This would be worth a few CoV's imo.

These CoV's would not exercise the securities exchange laws if they were presented as notifications of voluntary achievements and as such, only “exchangeable” as a kind of token capital that would be eventually matched by real dollars from Gaia towards ventures indicated as priorities by the member groups.  Gettting to “go” on this kind of deal is what you pay your lawyers for.  (heh heh)

Re: Wealth for All

Hi all,

Excellent ideas, Michael!

I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'm just gonna throw this out there for everyone to stick in their ponderizers, but what about, instead of CoVs, there was a system of “Gaia dollars” (G$) kinda like the lindens (L$) in Second Life?  People could accumulate G$ for all sorts of reasons or even buy them at some exchange rate for use within the community.

That's it for now.

Cheers,
Grey

Re: Wealth for All

I think this could be wonderful. It would be separate from any stock snarls then, hm? Our own system of value?

There could be tremendous potential there… it'd be complicated, I'm sure, but as Michael put it, there's so, so much possibility.

Re: Wealth for All

Michael (maxie :)…

Thank you, as always.

Yes, both numbers and activity is important, but so, too, is quality. I know there are plenty in this community who believe in the value of an almost blind tolerance, but I have no qualms about the fact that some people are more compassionate than others, and some are more witty, and some are more intelligent or arrogant or confident or caring or wise. A million members would be wonderful (imagine a million of us all committed to seeing the best and the highest in others, and supporting each other in our dreams and our callings and passions!), but they'd need to be the 'right' millions; after all, Facebook and MySpace have already 'won' through numbers alone, and I have no desire to do the same. What I care most about is maintaining a certain level of dialogue, a certain commitment to values, a certain dedication to respectfulness, compassion, inspiration, and support…

…and it occurs to me that your post in no way meant to exclude that. :) In fact, everything you wrote about more evolved member relations and dedicated visionaries makes me think that you had this in mind all along.

Mi scuzi.

I do think the ad revenue model is an important part of the package, and I'm proud of how we've managed to find advertisers that I'm proud to include on the site. Advertising, though, even of conscious or values-based businesses, though, isn't exactly revoluationary; furthermore, I don't see this existing community as representing a group of eager consumers. I see this community as people, instead, with much to GIVE, and who ought be supported and rewarded for their gifts, and so I'm hopeful, deeply, for Pro.

I'm hopeful, too for the introduction of more subscription communities (such as Earth Cinema Circle and Spiritual Cinema Circle which act to create and distribute of transformative mediaP that might symbiotically support this free one.  (This latter possibility, I feel, is potentially as useful when it comes to making a difference as the creation and advertising of green and sustainable products; after all, most of us are already quite educated about what we could do to live more lightly. We know about the problems facing the environment. We know about news in Darfur. What's necessary, at least it seems to me, is an inner transformation, a shift in consciousness, that impels us to take action. This community, I feel, has the potential to bring about such change, as do certain books and movies and stories and other communities… but I digress.)

And oh, Michael. Your 'shares' idea is compelling. Can you imagine it tied in some way with the seeds? Or would it operate at another level, or be something altogether different? I have to confess I'd be excited just about the idea of a Gaia economy, with Gaia dollars… but as I wrote below, there are legalities involved in this that necessitate exploring, and it sounds as though your shares idea might be one way around that.

Exciting. Sometimes I wish my brain were about ten times the size, but one of the beautiful things about this community is that you more than make up for it. :)

Re: Wealth for All

I will have to het a closer look at all of this - on first glance, and it really isn't more, there are some valuable ideas here that seem to mesh with what has come up over at my blog where I posted something called The Value of Zaadz/Gaia & social networks - a controversy?

It's late at night now that I discovered this thread and I guess I'll carve some time out of tomorrow to look at this closer…

Re: Wealth for All

vicey-versey on your blog, Mushin.  Perhaps we can rally in one spot soon.

We Want Some PIE!!!!

Money. Yummy. Simply, we all want a piece of the pie! It’s sooo tasty! Awww, I just went over and looked at the stockmarket info on Gaiam, and the millions look tasty! But shhh!!! I shouldn’t say! What if everyone finds out? I can already see the crowd of hungry, salivating conscious enlightened people advancing slowly, like those zombies in horror movies, droning in unison: “Wee waaant some piiie… Weee allsoo waaant some piiiee…” Eeek, scary…

Re: We Want Some PIE!!!!

Cute, Zet.  What's your point?

Re: Wealth for All

Alright, seriously now. Forget Gaiam's own site, they make money through printing and actually selling, a TRADING (and services) business, from there we buy goods with money and receive goods. Gaiam don't have to pay us for being their customers and buying their candles or CDs. Back to Gaia community then, to Zaadz.

Trying to interpret the popular concern here. Zaadz got sold because it “owns” a crowd of potential buyers. Gaiam “bought” a group of potential consumers who have effectively subscribed to receiving advertisements. Us. I will try to explain a POSSIBLE popular understanding of what happened. Correct me if I'm wrong.

******
Gaiam: Hi, Zaadz Team. We see you have a crowd of people interested in NewAgey-Greeny stuff here. How cool!
Zaadz: Thank you! We love this! NewAgey-Greeny stuff is our life, our vision!
Gaiam: Excellent, ours too. That's what we make money on, you see.
Zaadz: We too, but we don't sell stuff like you do, we just get people together and advertise to them a bit. Simple!
Gaiam: Great! You know, we placed adds with you before and it worked great! We want to buy you.
Zaadz: WHAT!? Why?..
Gaiam: We will pay you to develop your community, more, not just peanuts you get from your adds policy. You can continue developing it how you want, we won't intervene much, promise! We are also fans of NewAgey-Greeny stuff, you see.
Zaadz: Sounds great! But what's the catch?
Gaiam: Look, any company would pay billions for a list of people who would potentially buy their stuff. Honestly, it's like Nike having a list of addresses and telephone numbers of all the people in the world that feel like buying shoes! No need for shops! No need for public adds! It's just sooo much easier! Large supermarkets have loyalty cards to find out what their consumers buying habits are, but we don't need to if we actually OWN a community of buyers! And we are paying you x million for it…
******

Disclaimer: This is just a “fun” interpretation of what some people may THINK has happened, please don't take this as authentic anything, I'm not part of the Team in any way.

I wrote this to make the matter more obvious. We are not bloodthirsty salivating zombies as I wrote above. That was just a bit of fun with a tiny hint, that's all. ;) What the issue raised here is about (as I understand) is money made on us, “using” us. Yes, using, I will use this wording here to make things more obvious.

Back to the start then. I said and underlined: Gaiam don't have to pay us for being their customers. Or do they?

Supermarkets have loyalty cards. You don't go into a supermarket and fill a survey, ticking things you want to buy, will buy, will want to buy next year, bought this month, etc. No way, unless we are paid for this. And yes, there are loads of online surveys that you are paid for once you complete them.

On Zaadz, we agreed to see advertisements in exchange for Zaadz tools and community. Zaadz in turn attracted like-minded people, through magazine and media adds, and in many other ways. Thus, we sponsored a growth of a community. Early ambassadors were even materially rewarded for advertising the community (t-shirts, gifts etc.).

Now there is Gaiam Inc. that owns Zaadz. They payed the Zaadz team x amount of money for it. Guestion One: is it unfair that the Team got this acquisition money and not (partly) us?

Question two: if from being a community of bloggers we now became a community of potential buyers, do we deserve anything “monetary” for (almost unknowingly) declaring ourselves potential buyers by being part of gaia.com? Or simply, do we deserve bonuses like supermarket-loyalty-card-holders do?

Re: Wealth for All

Speaking as someone behind the scenes (when we started talking about selling Zaadz it was I who first got in touch with Gaiam on the basis of what I knew about their business and the people involved in creating it), I'll say your story does need a bit of correcting.

First of all, anthropomorphizing “Gaiam” isn't helpful. It's a company. It doesn't think. It doesn't talk. It's an organization that was founded years ago by a man who deeply, passionately, believed in a vuision, and who believed in the dream of a business that could cater to people who wanted alternatives to the mainstream. It's staffed by employees who believe in what we do. It's invested in, presumably, by people who think that this market has potential. And it's done remarkably well.

From my perspective, Gaiam is Zaadz, if Zaadz continued its original path. We were planning on getting big all along. Brian had his own great vision of what this little company was going to be like. It seems silly to me to paint Zaadz as somehow sweet and virtuous and Gaiam as unscrupulous or strategizing. We had the same vision; that's why now we're one.

Finally, the Team didn't get the acquisition money. Brian (who risked his savings and his family's saving and years of his life) and our investors (who put themselves at the same financial risk) were the ones who were paid.

Had you been one of the original investors, and had you risked thousands (or more) as a testament to your believing in Brian and his dream, you would have had your money returned as well. I don't see many in this community, though, who put forth the thousands (and thousands and thousands) to pay for servers and hardware and to pay the developers for the code upon which all this runs and to employ a team to manage the business side, knowing there was a chance they'd never see that money again but willing to risk it because they believed in what was being grown here. You contributed in other ways, sure, but this just means you're getting rewarded in other ways… by being a part of this warm and wonderful community.


You can still invest in Gaiam; you can still have a piece of this pie (which wasn't possible with Zaadz). Just buy some stock. :)

PS. If you want more, the corporate site has the values and mission statement; just click vision when you get inside.

“It is our vision to create an expanding global community of like-minded people with increasing power to effect positive change–by voting with dollars for uplifting and inspiration media, sustainable products, and authentic information…. We understand that the opportunity to affect people's lives with information, entertainment, and products is both a privilege and a responsibility.”

Re: Wealth for All

Siona, You are a saint!


You can still invest in Gaiam; you can still have a piece of this pie (which wasn't possible with Zaadz). Just buy some stock. :)


touché

Re: Wealth for All

Hi Zet,

I don't want to spoil your game and story here, but you see there is a lot of truth to what you made up there… what you and others don't seem to understand is that being spiritual and seeing that what you wrote in your little zaadz/gaia converstaion is exactly to the point.

There have been many exercises in the last 40 years or so that I know of (I'm 54 and was in with the hippies in Amsterdam when 14) that wanted to change the world and do good.
There are literally millions of people who would subscribe to the zaadz-now-gaia vision and goals. They haven't made it in the degree that Gaiam has because they were not able to create a market  which made them enough money to actually (maybe, have to see that) realize some of their goal.

As far as I'm concerned this was never about getting payed to be a customer - that's an absurd statement, and - this might not have been your goal - it ridicuales what people have been trying to grapple with here.

You seem not to understand the issue which is about spreading some of the value that is being created by the community which is used by Gaiam.

Your painting this black and white disallows for a many layered approachj, which is really a pity…

Re: Wealth for All

Mushin, but that was the whole point of those two points - to show how limiting the black and white picture is! To “provoke” Siona to reply to this with a more realistic picture! (Sorry about that Siona ;) ) I did read your post and the conversation following, but the bottom line I saw there was: “This is a very complex issue. Let’s think.” Well, here I am, trying to provoke us to think. ;)

I’d appreciate if you tried to rephrase your blog post, to make it “easier to get”. I know very well that you were talking about a different thing, that’s what I was trying to show. Now if you can explain the difference between what I was saying here and what you are getting at, that could be useful for developing the topic further.

Re: Wealth for All

Mushin: Forehead to the foor bow, dear you. That was wonderful.

Re: Wealth for All

Anyway, Sandra started the thread hoping to discuss something different. I’m sorry for following the sidetrack that started to develop here. I share your vision Sandra, you know, and I’m sure a lot of other people here, and in the Zaadz and Gaiam team too, share the vision. Siona definitely does; and it’s inspiring!

I still see Gaia’s seed system as a great potential for action. Planted seeds can be our own membership-card-points, and we can use them to donate gifts to needy communities or people through Gaiam.com, if they agree to sponsor such an action. I tried to explain the process back on Seeds and Gardens thread in Thinktank. (Sorry for not linking, the java applet apparently has a problem working regularly.)

Another great tool that the Team could develop is the charitable donations tool. People can put photos, videos, info and contact details of people and groups that need help, be it money, or some other kind of help (for example Matinde from Tanzania desperately needs accommodation in Cambridge, MA), and below put a donation toolbox that would let anyone donate quickly and easily.

I also wish to see Gaia as a place of consumer information. For example, in a recent Ecologist issue I learn that most fancy candles, especially ones from China, contain a bouquet of toxic materials, and it’s very unhealthy to burn them indoors. The best and safest are beeswax candles. This is the kind of info I want to see on Gaia. What of the “green-labelled” stuff in the shops is really green. What does the orange juice I bought today really contain. Where does the money from this famous charity really go. Etc.

So much potential in all this…

Re: Wealth for All

Beautiful, Zet. Just beautiful.

I've been thinking a bit about the seed system and how to potentially convert that into something actually rewarding, and I go back and forth; I don't want people to feel that they're being 'carrot-ed' into writing or blogging or what-have-you solely to to gain points, but I'd still love to see the ability to get something in return, or, better, to give more. :) (Your ideas about the program with Gaiam are just great!) Perhaps actively using the seed system could be what generated 'points'? So that if you spread a lot of love you'd get something in return? I know this would just put the issue off a bit, but it's one possibility.

And the consumer information angle is brilliant as well. I can't help but think that there must be so much of value among all of us–that is, that there must be multiple members who know so much already about how to consume in a way that minimizes the impact on the planet, or who know about how best to give–and I'd love to see a repository for all that. Fabulous idea.

Re: Wealth for All

Zet – just wanted to say, regarding your 'story' comment -  I think that what Mushin, Michael, Dave and Grey have been talking about has very little to do with greed and I'm saddened that what seems to be your take on the dialogue could reduce the possibility of a kind of quantum leap here - developing new ways of being together in community and supporting each other and the world at large. If you read the blogs and thread comments of the people above I think you might get where they are coming from, or perhaps the key is to ask what they mean in a comment, rather than assume something that may or may not be true.

I'm going to cross-post some of the comment I made on Mushin's blog ”The Value of Zaadz/Gaia & social networks - a controversy?”

One of my 'pet' subjects is how to dialogue online in a way that transcends the limitations of the medium: holding space for each other, listening, not holding on too tightly to ideas, seeing if something 'more' can arise out of the space, as opposed to trying to get the other one to see one's own point of view.

I believe everyone here who has posted has so much to offer on this definitely multi-layered topic – and it has huge potential for people's emotions and fixed positions to get involved… Just the mention of money.. oh boy!  And what a potential to take a look at these emotions and positions.

Siona: I've been thinking a bit about the seed system and how to potentially convert that into something actually rewarding, and I go back and forth; I don't want people to feel that they're being 'carrot-ed' into writing or blogging or what-have-you solely to to gain points,

I'm totally with you on this. I sense if we can encourage people to do some lateral thinking on all this, there is huge potential in the seed system. I'm presuming that most people are no longer upset about them, but I don't know.

The main issues  I see arising are from lack of communication: when people feel they haven't been 'told' about something – eg the Seed System, the change to the ToU's, some of the changes to the interface (personally, I'd have love to have been told about more real-estate of the page being taken up by advertising, but it may have been mentioned and I missed it). 

Perhaps just by talking about the possibilities here and elsewhere will help.


Love,
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All

Sandra, I’m sorry to have saddened you. Another opportunity to work on emotions? I was hoping that in describing what is NOT the case we could in fact get to the actual issue easier. I hope the possibility of a quantum leap is not diminished. ;)

Re: Wealth for All

I just had a thought. In my vision of a future Gaia, I saw us, Gaians, as a very real “social” force in this changing world. Like the students in the 60s, Gaians may actually become the very “influential” force of change. If, indeed, an international collaboration of conscious businesses will emerge out of this, the entrepreneurs and other Gaians will together form a very strong social, ideological, political and even economic power. And, please follow my thoughts on this my friends, a grocery owner down the block then will not be just a grocery owner for the local authority. He will be a Gaian. A name, “label” (though I don’t usually like those), that will spark hope and inspiration in the populace and serious concern and consideration in the eyes of the authorities.

With such growth, I’m sure you’d agree, our communal power to change things, change the world, will grow exponentially! This vision is all good, and I truly hope this is how it will go, but having this in mind I raise the following issue.

Sandra, you started with “wealth for all” in a certain sense, I did go quite off-topic but I’d like to come back to the “for all” bit now. Rephrasing, let’s say “wealth for all Gaians”.

Let’s come back to the vision above. To really give some special authenticity (we can talk more on how and is it really important) Gaia would need to be able to provide its members with something special, and free. T-shits, badges and banners would be a simple first guess, and free gifts or gift coupons that can be used for charitable deeds are also very realistic and possible (consider a 30%discount vouchers given to family in need by a local Gaian, for example). Furthermore, there may (and I believe should) be published works, like magazines and newsletters, with most content originating on Gaia community (Gaiam does printing already, a logical continuation would be a Gaia magazine). Gaia.com will be a name worth representing at various conferences around the world, and Gaians would need some kind of “special identification” as well as at least some “permission” for such representation. (E.g. I mean like environmental conferences, public speeches, meetings with authority representatives etc.) Naturally, every singe Gaian will not be able to have access to all of the above (gifts, t-shirts, publishing space, etc.) and more. At least not equally.

Thus I come back to the “wealth for all Gaians”, and note that it may not be possible for ALL Gaians. Gaia will need a meaningful way of prioritising, and “sharing wealth” at the same time and increasing its own (our) power, effectively. Luckily, we now have the SEED SYSTEM that has a strong potential to do that for us.

So, here’s a suggestion to consider. At some point in the future, when Gaia will become sufficiently strong and Gaiam Inc. will feel ready to cash out on the community vision, they will need a way to decide whom to offer t-shirts, leaflets, vouchers, whom to feature in the press, whom to ask to represent etc. We already have the ambassadors now who are/have been receiving some of such things in help of promoting the Zaadz Community. I suggest that the next step, when the Gaia Community will not necessarily need promotion itself, the “‘ambassador+’ perks”, the “wealth” in a sense, should be given to a much larger proportion of the community, at least to that part of it with a certain high SEED COUNT.

You see the controversy and potential arguments this may spark? Again, we may come back to arguments about rank and fight for popularity to get the perks, etc. (Do we need another thread on this in the Thinktank?)

To finish my thought: the much larger-distributed “‘ambassador+’ perks” will not have promotion of Gaia as the main aim, but the AID of a SPECIFIC VISIONs, causes, public actions that Gaians will undoubtedly be inspired to undertake by the Community.

Re: Wealth for All

Zet,

I am with you… in the spirit of Martin Luther King Day… I have a dream… for Gaia to be the proof that being true to our heart's calling.. and living a life in service to others… will create happiness, wealth, and peace for all.

It truly can happen… and we are being called to make it real.

Re: Wealth for All

Dave,

Amen to that, word for word.

best,
Michael

Re: Wealth for All

Do you know what I truly love about Gaia?

We are a community of equals… and we are all immune from the color of our skin, our religious and spiritual beliefs, our income levels, our age, our sexual orientation, our nationality.

We are, the world we want to be. 

After my mom's surgery today, my dad and I were having supper, and I showed him a scrapbook that I made filled with wishes and prayers from Gaia members.. for my mom.

He was too tired to read it at that moment, so while we at our bbq chicken he asked me… 'Is this internet community you belong to part of the neo conservative religious right?  You did tell me they were based in Colorado, and isn't that where those evangelicals all live? 

(Forgive my dad, before he met my mom, he was a priest who still holds onto the sanctity of the Catholic Church above all other spiritual beliefs)

I smiled, took a sip of my beer, and said.. “there may be some evangelicals in our community, but there are also agnostics, aetheists, Hindus, Zen Buddhists, Christians of all denominations, Jews, Moslems, Integralists…. even Catholics.  What is common in all of us.. is a heartful conviction to making the world a better place, and learning from each other how we can make a difference.

He said.. 'oh.. that is very good.  as long as you aren't all evangelicals.”

i gotta love the guy… back in the 50's, he married a Presbyterian… can you imagine the risk he took!!!  :)

]The fact that we can all understand my dad, and laugh with respect… is what I truly love about Gaia.

Long live us!

Re: Wealth for All

Zet, Dave,
Yes :-)

I very much like many of your suggestions, Zet. I don't, or have difficulty 'seeing' the potential of stronger Gaian “branding” - but I suspect this is my own preference not to separate or be 'called' something (same thing you express), and I definitely see the potential for 'issues' arising out of any perk system, and I also think there is potential here.

I'm not so much interested in 'getting something' out of Gaia/Gaiam than being able to contribute here as a community member within a community which has more of the 'flow' of energy (money..) circulating within rather than being reliant on outside sponsorship and sponsorship.

If, for example, a sponsor was also a community member ( this might already be the case, but it's not obvious if it is), or one of the GoogleAds was 'bought' by another community member… I'd 'feel better' about them. Now of course any member can sponsor or be part of GoogleAds ( i.e. the marketing side rather than the consumer side) – but I'd like to see this being more integrated into how we 'are' here.

I love the publishing idea, of course.

I'd love to move away from the 'consumer' focus, in the sense of buying 'stuff' - not that I don't want to buy stuff… but I'm with you on your other thread, that the site feels more commercial than before, and I sense a huge potential for another paradigm.

There's more but I'm bit brain fuzzy right now.
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All

typo: on outside sponsorship and sponsorship. should read on outside sponsorship and ads.
I also meant to include an 'etc' to money.
S.

Re: Wealth for All

Musing here on ideas to implement more of an internal 'marketplace'. This isn't speaking to the larger issue of commercialism, and may in fact just be supporting this very thing…

NMDave on Zet's Gaia.com potential to fail thread: .the idea for products is a good one, and it has been discussed- but our focus will remain on community building (what we're good at) for at least the next little while. :)

Well I'm definitely pleased about that!

And I was musing last night thinking about Jeffrey Skoll, first president of EBay - a very interesting man. (After EBay he created a film production company to fund “feature films and documentaries that promote social values while still being commercially viable. Its first three films were Syriana, Good Night, and Good Luck, and North Country along with the documentary Murderball. These films accounted for 11 Oscar nominations in 2006. Subsequent films included An Inconvenient Truth… [which]won two Oscars in 2007 and has been credited with extending the public debate over climate change….”)

Anyway, I thought, yes, it's  difficult to implement and develop software here that could support an internal marketplace, but what about using something that's already been developed? Too bad Skoll is no longer president, I think he'd have been very interested in Gaia.

I'm sharing this although I still feel that our society is far too over-balanced on the 'consumer' end of things.

And yet perhaps we could use tools that  are a cross between Ebay and Craigslist (owned by another interesting man, Craig Newmark a vocal advocate of keeping the Internet free.. Craigslist grosses millions per year and yet there are no ads, The only people required to pay are employers posting help-wanted ads for San Francisco, New York City, and Los Angeles.)..

Love,

Sandra

p.s. I just want to point again to Mushin's blog The Value of Zaadz/Gaia & social networks - a controversy? which has an active and very interesting dialogue going in the comments with C4, Siona and others - anyone interested in this subject should go and take a peek.

Re: Wealth for All

Dear Ones,

Just dropping by to let you know that I will be taking a “sabbatical” of sorts for an extended period of time.

Thank you all for the opportunity to open my big mouth around here and let fly with my pontifications (heh heh)  It has been and will be a grand ride and I want you all to know that I will keep you front and center in my heart as I move there for the next steps on my journey. 

I intend to post to my blog on occasion and I welcome your pm's should you feel the desire to communicate with me. 

Whatever comes of this transition will be a good thing as the roots are strong and diverse.  Take care.

loving me, loving you
Michael

Re: Wealth for All

To note.. Gaiaz can be the change and give off a certain “Wealth” for its users, us, if there is a POWERFUL MAIN PAGE, like our community page but even more powerful. If Gaia.com is going to actually ADVERTISE GAIANS. So that on one page you find out about all the little, even TINY, charities that users have on their blog, a little local gathering, a little local meditation group, a little publication, as well as a growing private entrepreneurship like a grocer gaian from corner street only supplying local organically grown food. This page needs to be very “rich”, informative and exciting for new users to extensively browse around, without being wary of accidentally clicking on a coca-cola advertisement.

Re: Wealth for All

I like it, Zet. Yes!
Love,
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All - The Second Source of Prosperity?

I've been wondering where best to post the following… I'll put it here for now:

I've just read about Dr. J. Daniel Dahm's work. He has written a book called Urban Subsistence: the Second Source of Prosperity. (Dahm is German, the 'Dr' means he has a doctoral degree) “…It demonstrates how the welfare and future of our society depends primarily on voluntary work by citizens, not on a money-driven economy.

He argues that the importance of cooperatives and networks is frequently underplayed in industrialized nations. he contends that social systems cannot survive if their only mission is the production of material goods, and that technological advancements need to be given a new ethical component. His work also attempts to demonstrate ways in which 'urban subsistence' can be used effectively to help achieve sustainability of natural and social resources, counter climate changes and redress political imbalances…”

He basically points out that a lot of the things that people require to survive and live in dignity currently purely depend on our good will and empathy… and that our economic markets fail to cater for human needs because they don't grant access to the majority of people.

He also talks about how civil help and support among citizens is very strong in Germany, inspite of less and less funding. More than half the labour force in Germany is based on unpaid, voluntary work, and the figures on a global scale, according to the International Labour  Organisation are even higher…..

So, I ask myself, what is going to happen if people cannot volunteer and give support because they simply cannot survive without support for themselves?  It seems to me, and I'm hugely naive in all this, that something is very awry here. As Dahm says, the foundation of financial markets needs to be transformed.

How does Gaia.com fit into all this?

In a way all this points to other discussions here, on the 'value' of Gaia as a community – and how do we support this value and remain sustainable, and do even more by 'not' relying on present economic methods.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All

I'm probably flogging a dead horse here, but I was wandering about on Salon and saw this:

About Tippem

Tippem is the system within Open Salon that allows members to tip each other. We think it's a great way to reward people for creating great content.

In order to process tips, Open Salon has partnered with Revolution MoneyExchange, a peer-to-peer payment service that allows you to send and receive money with no fees between account holders. Once you join as an Open Salon member, you can register for a MoneyExchange account within Open Salon, and receive a $10 bonus from Revolution MoneyExchange!

Whenever you see the tip button accompanying a blog post, you can tip the author of that post:

The default tip amount is set to $1.00, but you can change it to any amount between $0.10 and $1,000 (you'll find this option within the “Edit Account” section of Open Salon.) Click the button, and your tip is queued for payment.

————-

There's lots more info on the actual page.

In the same arena, I stumbled arcorss The Blue Goose Community

Quote from an article on Reuters:

Blue Goose Media LLC announces the
perfection of microfinancing and direct donation in the Web 2.0 platform.
    The social networking-social entrepreneurial site (www.bluegoosenews.com)
now offers full transparency between donor and recipient with technology it
envisioned and developed with ONESite, one of the nation's premier
functionality providers, and Web developers csnglobal.
    The feature, termed a "tip jar" is Blue Goose's seamless, secure and
user-friendly method of directed contribution to move money around within the
"collective digital campfire" as Blue Goose envisions itself.
    Users can tip bloggers, finance tuitions and charities will benefit from
low administrative overhead. They can donate directly and see the results
almost immediately through a tracking facility and video and audio uploads
from recipients, most of whom will be suggested by the users themselves.
    Individual accounts are set up by credit card with the balance solely
tracked as proprietary information to the subscriber and the site's
accountants.

Re: Wealth for All

Like Sandra, I'm more interested in circulating and contributing any benefits gained. Siona seems to be thinking ahead of most to the growth here snowballing.
      One of our towns Lewis have just created their own currency, 10 uk pounds are exchangable for ten Lewis pounds, the idea is that they can only be spent in local shops to encourage the creation of local wealth and keeping it within the community, it makes ecological sense and is hopefully helping to lower transport emissions. The notes are printed in the same place as the national currency so can't be photocopied lol. Could Gaiam develop a currency like this that could be used between Gaians and various charities we donate to worldwide using the exchange rate in each country. Unused notes can be exchanged back at the same rate. It doesn't seem to be illegal here, not sure about other countries.? If we grew enough we could have a new world currency circulating to benefit our aims and vision. Just throwing out ideas and brainstorming freely 

Re: Wealth for All

Could Gaiam develop a currency like this that could be used between Gaians and various charities we donate to worldwide using the exchange rate in each country?

Ee. This is one of my dreams, and one of the things I was hoping the seeds could evolve into.

The biggest problem with intersection between complementary currencies and existing forms of legal tender (other than the fact that they cause the IRS to flip out ;), is that they're vulnerable to being used by money launderers. If we were to start (or, should I say, when we start!) a currency system, it would be best if there were no 'exchange rate' to begin with, at least until the currency grows strong on its own. Again, a complicated matter, but one that's so, so valuable, and one that I'm tremendously passionate about.

Thanks, Sandra and Zephyr.

Re: Wealth for All

Do you envisage using seeds or tokens earned to barter within Gaia ? LOL If the currencies drop any more real seeds will be worth more.Grins.

Re: Wealth for All

I'm not sure whether it would be for bartering; I think my idea involves some not-yet-fully-clear 'valuation' of things that we don't otherwise see as valuable, like community or poetic beauty or ability to inspire hope. I don't want these things to be reduced to our current (fearful and acquisitive) currency systems, but to contribute to a more fluid and playful environment… one where the more you give, the more you have, and the more you contribute, the more currency flows. Does that make sense? Right now our money rewards those who 'save', while really (I think!) it should be arranged such that those who give the most benefit…

Re: Wealth for All

Siona - just curious, why not a bartering system?
Love,
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All

Sandra: It occurs to me that I don't know what you mean by that. A barter is an exchange of goods or services without using money, right? So we could set up a bartering exchange (or anyone could–just create a Group) but I'm not sure what role a currency system would play. Maybe you could elaborate?

Again, any time there's an overlap or intersection of monetary or points systems with real world goods or legitimate legal tender, it raises big issues around security, system gaming, and government tracking. And tracking a barter system here in the US, means IRS involvement for those participating. (And no, I don't particularly relish the role I'm playing in this conversation, but I just want everyone to be eyes-wide-open on what's involved in credit and lending games. :)

Re: Wealth for All

Siona – ah, ok - I was meaning just a straightforward barter system ( like LETS), - no currency involved. I was only curious if there was a particular reason 'against' such a system being set up here. Yes, indeed it could be something a group could get going.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Wealth for All

Siona's answer was precise, Sandra. “Straightforward barter systems” are of great interest to the IRS, and are totally subject in this country to the taxation system. Including and especially the ones with “no currency involved.”

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Wealth for All

lol, sometimes we can spend a lot of seeds and still they mount up, it can be hard getting rid of them as fast as we spend a lot more roll in, there are only so many hours in the day and sometimes other things take priority., also sometimes we get involved in what we are learning/ communicating and forget to seed, then it's a choice, retrace steps or move on, one at a time is a slow process.

Re: Wealth for All

Siona,

Yes, I really understand were you are coming from, as sometime ago, a man told me you can not get it until you give it away.
For me it is not the amount of money I have in my hands or my pocket  as I have been at all sides , Interestingly enough when I had nothing it was as though I had everything.
People that I never knew came , and helped , and gave to us.
So in return now , I may not have a lot yet I still give , and give my love as well.
If I had all the money in the world right now , I would give to first , health , and wellness care for all.
I have a list of things I would do , and it is not about me driving a fancy new car , as I would maybe get something more gentler on our earth , although , there , are other things more important than a car.
Love,
Loriann

Re: Wealth for All

 “but to contribute to a more fluid and playful environment… one where the more you give, the more you have, and the more you contribute, the more currency flows.”

Re: Wealth for All

B.B.; Zephyr; Loriann: I think we all understand each other. :)

And of course an endlessly replenishing bank, or one that grew the more you gave, would have to include some built-in 'expiration,' no? Otherwise before we knew it  we'd be absolutely overrun. So perhaps if you didn't spend your seeds after a certain period of them they'd be recycled… that part of what keeps the seeds 'alive' is the flowing.

Anyway. You can see it's something that I think has tremendous creative potential. And yes, I think it would be fabulous to be able to dump a whole bucketload on someone if the impulse struck you. ;)