Spirituality

I am not hostile, I'm not idiotic (usually), and I'm not always apathetic.

But am I the only person here at Zaadz who doesn't believe in the concept of spirituality? I'm a pretty skeptical person, and I just don't get all the glowing-orb / inner-self / chakra / feel-my-chi business. Can anyone explain to me the point of it? Why do people believe that there's an essence of themselves that dwells separate from their minds?

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You may not believe in Spirituality, but do have any philisophical bent towards service to others?

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no, yor not the only one….. but one of a few


Guru Jack

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I do not believe spirit dwells separately from mind.  I believe they are entwined together … mind, body, spirit.  My thought is that the mind works on a cellular level and that 'spirit' is pure energy.

For me, spirit or 'our soul' if you will is a living, breathing entity which resides inside of us and is never ending … always being.  It is often referred to as 'etheric energy' … 

Jim Ray writes:
 

Though a closely integrated element of both individual and collective existence, bio-etheric energy and its uses have only begun to be identified and embraced by society. As we seek to become fully acquainted with this energy type, a new, yet common understanding of etheric energy and its properties has presented itself: the energy exists, and the ultimate question is how to make complete use of it.

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Dear Soozi,
As per my understanding, If the Spirit is Eternal, so are its various attributes and elements. Everything is ever changing, including the Spirit. The unchanging inside us Observes the changing outside of its realms, the Changing inside observes the Unchanging or Stillness outside as well.
Thou Art mind, thou Art Ether, thou Art Air, thou art fire and thou Art Earth as well. Thou Art “Existence-Consciousness-bliss'' that manifests as the Created Cosmos
the element of Integration and Disintegration from Body, Mind, Spirit is as much an illusion as “The Rise and Fall of the Empirical Second outside the realms of Self” is a mere Illusion.
Much Love
One who has tried to Know the Spirit, couldn't know, one who knew couldn't describe, one who described lost the meaning of the Spirit, on the moment of the description, one who tried to capture the Spirit into ONE Glimpse Couldnt do so, because the Spirit is as Elastic as it can become Cosmic to subtle in 1000th of a second.
Namaste, Jagan Ramamoorthy

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No, David. I'm not against helping other people out, but I've never felt any obligation to donate to charities or give anything of myself to others.

Soozi, if The Soul and Its Mechanism is anything like The Celestine Prophecy, I don't think I will be able to stomach it. My question isn't what people believe about spirituality; it's why.

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FreeThinks
 I highly doubt that you are against helping others, you probably would not be on Zaadz if you were. I myself do not like to donate to charities unless they have somehow helped me. I do give to The Salvation Army whenever possible, but that is only due to the fact that I was directly helped by that organization in a way that was lifesaving for me, but that doe's not give me any right to expect others to do likewise, as in “You should give money to The Salvation Army because they helped me”.
In terms of why people believe in spirituality, that has as many answers as it doe's people who believe in it in whatever form. I would rather see a person find their own path and come to their own conclusions, without needing things “explained” to them. I could recommend any number of books to you, but I would much rather state that there are many atheist who are dedicated to serving others, while there are many “spiritual” people who are among the most selfish people I've ever met or watched on television (i.e send us a “love offering”).
It's not about me trying to get anyone (including you) to agree with my opinions or beliefs, because that is not my place.
Besides, if I spent all of my time trying to “understand” the beliefs of others, then I'd have no time to develop my own beliefs (whatever those may or may not be).

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It's NOTHING like Celestine Prophecy.  Alice Bailey's books were written between 1919 and the late 40's, long before spiritualism became a mecca for capitalism.  Today, some authors have called her writings racist and antisemitic but I think much of what she wrote back then was a reflection of the time she was living in.  She has a huge library of thought.  Some of her books do not resonate with me, but Soul and its Mechanism did.  Her thoughts on where the soul is located in our physical body gave me much to consider …

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Hi Free Thinks,

As to the great “Why”…

THROW out everything you have ”learned” before you SINCERELY ask yourself these questions (Seek the answers as intuitively as a child would):

1. What is Love? Not love in the hormonal sense… between partners…
Why do we Love? Is it instinct? If so, why do we love certain activities, things, people?

2. Why Birth and Death? What is the point? What happens in between if anything at all?

3. Why is there suffering? Pain? Strife? What is it's function in the machine of life?

4. What is energy and why can't it be destroyed and only changed? What does this have to do with you?

5. Why do equasions break down in physics when at the point in time where the universe is a singularity?

6. What is beyond the universe?

7. What is God/Creator?

8. What is Spirit?

It's great to be a skeptic. Skeptics ask questions. I asked questions once and got many answers, still I have many questions…. but I have found so many answers that give me Faith beyond empirical evidence. The act of observation is enough, we can observe many truths just by asking the right questions.

Love and Light

Sara H.

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Hi Free Thinks,

As to the great “Why”…
ANS: The Why is as important as “What”? If there is no “What?” then, there is no “Why” either.

THROW out everything you have ”learned” before you SINCERELY ask yourself these questions (Seek the answers as intuitively as a child would):

1. What is Love? Not love in the hormonal sense… between partners…
Why do we Love? Is it instinct? If so, why do we love certain activities, things, people?
Love is the most powerful force and hence it is also our Truest Nature, it is much higher than the highest of all Truths. One can always look for Judgmental attitudes in “Truth Seekers” but can you ever find a Love-being as anything Judgmental?

2. Why Birth and Death? What is the point? What happens in between if anything at all?
Ans: Both are mere rememberances. Death isa  rememberance of that which has lived before and has died before, same way life is a rememberance for that which has died and lived before as well.

3. Why is there suffering? Pain? Strife? What is it's function in the machine of life?
Ans: Suffering is a lack of one's ability to “Let go” of what isn't supposed to be one's own. The more we latch on to such things, feelings the more we draw ourselves into an inner “cross-bearing”

4. What is energy and why can't it be destroyed and only changed? What does this have to do with you?
ANS: Energy is the very fact that Consciousness “Is” and nowhere else. Energy is the “feel” that each sentient being gets from the “Mobility, Inertia and Rhythm aspects” of Consciousness. If you can make these three factors “Equipoised” then there would be neither energy-consciousness as separated beings, nor would you feel “Energy is created or destroyed or changed”—it comes to Sufi's thoughts “All is as it is supposed to be”

5. Why do equations break down in physics when at the point in time where the universe is a singularity?
ANS: That is itself a great mystery, the Universe is not singular, we assume it to be. the Universe could be like how “Kepler” saw it, space within solids and solids within spaces and so on..


6. What is beyond the universe?
ANS: Cosmos is…. Universe has Multitudes called Multi-verses and Multiverses are eventually into cosmos and it has no limitations.

7. What is God/Creator?
ANS: I missed that one, I guess. But He/She/It is supposed to be giving 'me' or us the Green bills, either it is Bill gates kind of bills or Hilary Clinton Kind of bills (oops Bill clinton?)


8. What is Spirit?
ANS- That is the Super Grid which is connected through the Spiritual realm called “Radio Waves and Ethereal field” between Individual consciousness and supreme consciousness. Visualize the Bicycle chain, on two spindles, one spocket bearing is larger and the other is smaller. One cycle of the larger Grid is equal to 360 of the smaller one.

It's great to be a skeptic. Skeptics ask questions. I asked questions once and got many answers, still I have many questions…. but I have found so many answers that give me Faith beyond empirical evidence. The act of observation is enough, we can observe many truths just by asking the right questions.
ANS:To all your questions–asked or unasked– “The day you feel, that you have reached a point of Acceptance that 'This is it, I have found all answered' beware, you will be in for a stunning surprise. Life begins from there.

Love and Light
Love n Light indeed.


Jagan Ramamoorthy
tickleawakeningsport

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You mentioned The Celestine Prophecy ,
FreeThinks -
can you not pick that book up again and
look at it from fresh eyes.
Look deeply into your own life and look for the
similarities.

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Why someone believes in something I can't explain, because beliefs are based on a persons indivdual experiences through life.  I can say that people are curious by nature, and since the first people where on this earth we have looked for meaning and understanding of the things around us.  I believe that spirituality is the search for understanding of ourselves.  Discovering who we are and finding the way to become the best person that we can become.

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Dear Ms Free thinks,
Observe your own thoughts, they generate both your own Illusions and realities. Choose carefully. You might end uo creating your realities without the Illusions. Much love
NAmaste
Jagan RAmamoorthy

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Thank you Jagan for your always insightful posts. :D

P.S. Are you following me??? lol

Love and Light

Sara H.

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Nice post FreeThinks. And this thread had me giggling all the way through. =)

I don't identify as “spiritual” either, mostly because there are way too many definitions of spirituality, most of which do not resonate with me. (seeking something I already am is not spiritual to me..it is masochistic and insane)

To just be grateful for my simple old ordinary self and grateful for my simple old ordinary life is, I believe, enough….because when I live in gratitude everything always works itself out. And I grow and learn and develop as a human being.
Gratitude is like fertile soil for my whole being; the fruit (my actions) that grows from gratitude can only be good and healthy for myself and others in my life (which includes every living thing…this is a small world after all lol).

I actually love all the “glowing-orb / inner-self / chakra / feel-my-chi business” that i see here at Zaadz, even though its not my bag. I find it sweet…and endearing, even when arrogance and self righteousness get mixed in with it.  Humans are absolutely beautiful, imperfections and all.
We are all in this together, and we're a lot more alike than different.
I just love the diversity, which is why I divide my (limited online) time between MySpace, Zaadz and my favorite political forum. =)

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You do too believe in the concept of spirituality, you're talking about it.

I'm just bustin yer proverbials…..I'm with ya on the point. One of the reasons that so many people are religious/spiritual is because they have been indoctrinated, it's the norm, you freak….except for Western Europe, they perdominantly claim agnosticism and atheism according to a recent survey.

I'm not going to get into why different cultures/regions differ, nor will I ramble about the origins of religion/spirituality because it is too complex and hard to piece together due to the origins pre-dating written language by millenia.

One of the reasons is likely to be the difficulty of managing the reality of mortality. You should understand that being a nonspiritual person. I suspect that the glowing/inner/chakra/fluff-stuff serves bith as a bonding mechanism and a distraction from the harsh realities of the present with it's seeds sown for a potentially horrific future.

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How do you think I feel! I am a Christian but I feel like I've joined some new age cult.

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Hi Free Thinks.

Spirituality means different things to different people. To mean, spirituality is just sort of my own personal beliefs that guide me in my life. I'm sure you have some of your own.

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Thank you all for your posts. SPECIAL thanks to you, elementstew, for correcting my inaccurate wording. *winks.*

All of you have given me things to think about…

1. Why do we Love? Is it instinct? If so, why do we love certain activities, things, people?
Love is the recognition of worth. We love people, activities, and things because we appreciate their value.
2. Why Birth and Death? What is the point? What happens in between if anything at all?
Birth and Death continue the process of evolution. In between Birth and Death, we pursue what we perceive as perfection. We will never be perfect, because there is no such thing, but we can keep improving throughout the millenia.
3. Why is there suffering? Pain? Strife? What is it's function in the machine of life?
Suffering is the balance to joy. One defines the other; we cannot appreciate our joy without knowing the meaning of suffering.
4. What is energy and why can't it be destroyed and only changed? What does this have to do with you?
Energy is an object's capacity to do work. It can't be destroyed because it's nothing but a property, like a physical attribute or character flaw (although these are oversimplifications of the idea). It has nothing to do with me, in the mental/spiritual sense; it has everything to do with me in the physical sense. 
5. Why do equasions break down in physics when at the point in time where the universe is a singularity?
I'm not sure I understand the question.
6. What is beyond the universe?
I don't know.
7. What is God/Creator?
I don't know.
8. What is Spirit?

I don't know.

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Hi Freethinks,

I took a look at your profile, and you’re like 18? something like that, right? Well, at 18, I didn’t believe in none of that gump either, and I’d bet everyone here, in some point in their *longer than you might think* existance didn’t believe in it as well. I think the answer to your question is, it’s a question of evolution.

Personally I’ve never liked the word spirituality, because it conjures up images of people with flowers painted on their heads doing mushrooms and trying to talk to van-gogh using ouji-boards. now, I have no problem with flowers, mushrooms, or van gogh, but inherant in the term is the history of judgement those “with two feet firmly planted” have leveled against the ‘spiritualists.’

What happened to me, simply, was that eventually I came to the point where it couldn’t be denied that the view of the universe, cause and effect, and human life that I’d been given by society was… shockingly limited, and in a sense, horribly miscorrect.

I think most here would say, as people who have responded here are beautifully saying, the trick is to find all answers within yourself. don’t believe in chakras? Ok, that word is meaningless to you: erase it from your vocabulary. You got a star, follow it. If you’re inflappable, if you are dedicated beyond the end of your strength, eventually, you may decide everything you’ve been taught wasn’t what they said it was.

…or not. the question is, are you wiling to dance the dance? Seek the seeker’s…thing that’s sought?

But to give a few of my answers: paradox is the fundamental state of our existance, and everything you say is true, but usually, so is the opposite, and all shades in between. The trick is to resolve the paradoxes, which none can do for you. I wouldn’t look for god in my mind, but I wouldn’t look for god outside of me either. in fact, I wouldn’t look for god period, because if I look for god, chances are I won’t find god, because looking for god is an action based in logical phalacy. Paradox: even imperfect as we are, everyone is perfect, because everything is perfect. If there’s a guy with a white beard standing on a cloud somewhere, throwing lightning or spying on us, his ‘creations,’ I’d treat him like the zens say to treat the buddha if I see him. Chakras are a culturally and historically loaded term for energy convergience points in the human body, and that the human body has energy is undeniable, if you like the matrix or know anything about free electrons or MRI exams.

trust no one : P

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Hello Freethinx….Alan..

Yeah I would endorse Alan's eloquence and add to it that you probably believe that E=MC squared cos a whole bunch of mathguys tell you so and others attest to those guys' brilliance and the pyramid of validation cascades down to high school math teachers and then to me who knows a smattering of differential calculus….

And in the far east, you have a bunch of guys telling you about enlightenment and spirituality and meditation… which is what they did with their lives rather than study maths…it's a different pyramid but the same mechanism….

If you study math you will eventually get to E=MC2…if you meditate a whole load you will discover chakras, energy, enlightenment…the whole trip…there are practical systems out there to try out…but if you don't try them out you will be enslaved by the beliefs of others…

Happy hunting.

Jon x

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And I would endorse/add to tantricksta’s eloquence to say that, especially if you take a good look at science, with a key eye towards the areas where science’s understanding doesn’t jive with their evidence, AND you without believing or disbelieving, read up on things like chakras, very interesting answers come up.

…why does the body, for example, lose 6 grams or whatever?

…how many free photons are in a body? When they move, they act as if they have ‘weight’ and are detectable by scales and such… how many free photons would it take to stop moving to make these 6 grams, and is it possible to prove that this happens at death?

would fleeing free photons then possibly be what god-loving types call “the soul?”

heh heh heh

I really wish someone would do this study, damnit : P

EDIT: hmmm it just occurred to me that “free” photons couldn’t be “in a body,” could they? Still, I’d bet everyone’s vibrating their own special way in the free photon sea, the “Cosmic Microwave Background”… wish I knew more about how it worked… where are scientists when you need them?

REedit: hm, something else occurred to me, as I mull this again– wouldn’t an “out of body” experience just be cutting the ties between one’s photons and matter? I could see photons being superimposed somehow, only to escape every now and then, if the brain of the person is savvy…

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There is a movie that may shed light on this: 21 grams. This is said to be the weight of the human soul. A body that ways 180lbs sheds 21 grams of weight at the exact moment of death. This is a medical/scientific fact and don't ask me how the data was gathered but it is nearly scientific proof of “something”.  In sociology I recently heard of a study  of couples having fertility problems. It was a double blind study set up so that neither the couples nor the religious organizations knew anything about the study. Group 1 was prayed for and group 2 of the couples was not. The religious folk were simply asked by scientists to pray for a group of families having fertility problems with no knowledge of the study or that the men asking for prayer were actually furthuring scientific research. The group being prayed for experienced something along the lines of a 20% increased fertility rate MORE than the control or first group. The ratio was something like group 1 60% fertility group 2 40% fertility - no medicines were given and the grouping was done with tremendous attention to details such as ethnicity, age, and social inclination. The study caused waves because it seemed to prove the action of a divine hand. Draw your own conclusions but I for one have been very spiritual for a long time - even if I don't follow the  traditional worshiping behavior of my southern babtist upbringing.

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The concept of “spirit” needn't have anything to do with the supernatural and, indeed, is best without it. If there is a “spirit” it must be and can only be rooted in what is natural and real. If it is rooted only in the imaginary or the unsubstantiated, it is a waste of your time other than as a fanciful mental exercise. Considering the heavy value people place on the idea of the “spirit”, in its discovery, its cultivation, it nurturance, its preservation, you would think they'd be extremely diligent in discovering and defining what IS genuinely “spirit” and what is NOT. In other words, if you value “spirit” highly, I'd expect you to spend every effort to find its authentic basis rather than accept whatever sounds good or whatever you can imagine is true. The concept of “spirit” is too important to be so casual in its definition and in attaching unsubstantiated qualities or truths to it. The true nature of “spirit”, once perceived, will steer you clear of the “snake oil” and smoke and mirrors of the mystics.

Suffice to say, I hold that “spirit” is the end effect of all that you are physically in a single moment and over time. It is born with you and dies with you. Nothing anymore complex than that and nothing less. It is your life in its totality. It is natural. It is real. It is fragile. It is temporary. Cultivate your life and you cultivate “spirit.” They are, in fact, different words for what amounts to the same thing. When the life is unhealthy, so is the spirit. When the spirit is unhealthy, so is the life. Damage to one is damage to the other. A boon to one is a boon to the other. They are not two, they are one. They are you and you alone.

Don't squander it on fanciful notions that pull you further from full wakefulness, full experience, an authentic life. You are a spiritual monopoly. You are your own messiah, your own priest, your own church, your own religion, your own salvation … or your own damnation.

You create your spirit or you destroy it in every moment, every thought, every emotion, every word, every action.

Your choice. You need no master and, indeed, none can truly master your life, your “spirit.”

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Thank you, Naumadd, for that post. When I saw your reference to “the mystics,” I suspected that you were a fan of Ayn Rand, as I am. Your response is very insightful and has helped me to look at the “spirit” in a different way.

To the rest of you, thank you for your thoughts on this matter. I too have heard of studies conducted to prove the power of prayer and such, although I don't put much stock in statistics, because usually the same statistic can be used to support opposite sides of an issue.

I'm glad I came back to take another look at this thread…

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Hadn't checked this thread for awhile. Getting more interesting, more wisdom!!!

I lived and breathed Ayn Rand's philosophy for 10 years, including the active subculture in NYC around her. Then I had personal experiences that led me beyond her ideas. I totally agree with those above who say to heck with what others tell you; live, inquire, be open, and go by your own experiences. Past lives–for example– were unreal to me, until I had my own experiences of remembering. No one can or should try to convince or persuade anyone about spiritual matters. As was said above, and as Ken Wilber says, follow the directions, and you will have the experienes. Or not. I totally agree that when it comes to these matters, studies and statistics are pretty worthless as “convincers.”

I wrote a bit about the interface between Rand and spirituality in this blog. Much more could be said.

And here's my take on the issue. I agree Spirituality is not about “supernatural.” It is about totally natural, but not necessarily material. Ice will have a hard time “believing in” water until it has experienced it, and both of those will have a very difficult time “believing in” steam, until experiencing being that.

This is my metaphor for saying that E=mcsquared to me means that everything is vibration. And in vibration there are bandwiths, or frequency bands. A being, like a human being, whose consciousness is only able to detect certain frequencies and not others will have trouble “believing in” the existence of those other frequencies, until or unless consciousness has expanded, through various exercises, to the sensitivity to detect those other frequencies. Nothing supernatural about frequency bands, and certainly no old guy with a beard in the sky.

Most of RELIGION has nothing or very little to do with spirituality. Religion in my view is a human institution with human purposes which has most often co-opted our almost universal hunch that different frequency bands exist.

The frequency bands are, BTW, not discrete; they are continuous, and span many many frequencies. Consider that until we had instruments capable of detecting infrared and ultraviolet and x ray and radio frequencies, etc., it would have been very difficult to “believe in” those, as “real.”
 
To say I have a spirit or a soul, simply means that my self extends into frequencies ranges I am not in the habit of easily being aware of, ranges that my organs of perception are not, without some training, designed or created to detect. Our organs of perception, many people even psychologists have said, are not detectors so much as they are filters keeping us from being overwhelmed by all the energy frequencies that exist. Imagine trying to live being AWARE of all the electromagnetic pollution, the hundreds of signals passing through your body every second!!!

This is my perspective on this very important issue and question, which indeed is central within Zaadz, but needn't divide us. Really fine examples in this thread of respect and goodwill and tolerance, of a perspective that allows diversity within a common purpose.

 Blessings, OM Bastet

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I really agree totally with all that Vector says.  We all have our own rhythm or wavelength we operate on and total awarenss of all that is going on around is is overwhelming. 

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I just wonder why did we name these terms as Spirit and Spiral? because both seem to indicate something which is Unending, or Infinite, eternal. Also Scientists couldn't get even a Single picture from their Space Voyages to Mars before they named their Craft “Spirit”
Interesting eh?
Namaste, Jagan Ramamoorthy

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Hmm I suppose that’s one point scored for the word “spirituality,” isn’t it? At least, a point for spirit, the root word. : D

This thread kicks ass.

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Just something else to think about, since it's a new year:

But YOU do direct your own life, you know, FreeThinks. You can wake up and think spiritual thoughts if you please or you can wake up and think that the world is just concrete and flesh and blood and has no spirit.

To me, its very exciting to think that I have some control over my destiny and my life and I think that control comes from my thoughts and my spirit. Does that make me spiritual?

It doesn't have anything to do with chakra's and chi or sweatlodges or crystals or anything other than me and my thoughts. It makes me feel powerful and happy and peaceful to think that there is a spirit within me helping to guide my life. It is my choice to think it and it makes my life better.

Spirituality is a choice and I imagine that all of the people that choose it are more peaceful and blissful and centered. Being spiritual – believing there is a spirit within that guides us – is like having a constant friend there with you to help you through the rough times in life.

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Hey Alan, or anyone who digs this threa, you can bop on over to Collective Wisdom pod and nominate it for the Hall of Fame for zaadz Threads!!!

And Alan, can't you find us an interesting picture? I am getting bored lookin' at you as a silly standard smiley face. It doesn't do justice to your uniqueness, your spirit!!!!

Blessings, O.M. Bastet

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people think or beleive in this the same way others believe in their religion.

there is no proof that states that one religion is the right one.

just like you cant say which number has the highest amount of worth.

its impossible.

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I’ve tried, but every time I do my internet crashes. : ( My computer’s so old, I think it must’ve been featured on an episode of the flinstones.

I’ll get one up soon tho promise

this thread bedrocks! ha *ducks rotten fruit*

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Yeah, Alan, I hear you. I am not techie enough to suggest any workarounds.  What does “ducks rotten fruit” refer to?????

Blessings, OM Bastet

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Dear FreeThinks (and everybody),

Spirituality has been a tough road for me; in rejecting what any particular organized religion tells me, I spent years as an agnostic.  Maybe if I were more searingly honest, I'd have called myself an atheist.  But I wanted to believe something.  I still believe that relying on one religion to explain infinite Mind (Spirit/Universe/Oneness) is trying to squeeze God into a box.

I've come to believe, though, that the discoveries of modern science confirm the basics of what mystics have been telling us for thousands of years: everything is connected; I am no more separate from you, or the pine tree outdoors, than my toe is separate from my red blood cells or my elbow.  Something is there, inside and outside and through us.

My analogy is one of those Magic Eye 3-D pictures.  Once it comes into focus, you see the raised image as a unique object, but you also see the background pattern: it fills the image and fills the totality of the picture.  The outline of the image only seems to separate the individual from the ground.

What fills everything, I believe, is the One Mind.  The rest is details.

Peace.
Steve (JPtigercat)

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For all:

We could speak much about opinions concerning spirituality, but here is a simple exercise that proves it is real:

close your eyes: imagine the smile of someone you love, the warmth of a phone call of someone you care for, the soft petting of your cat or dog when you rest, the calm serenity of a small empty church, the clearing of the mind when walking in a garden center with the plants and flowers, the inspiration you feel after having watched some heroism of people on a show, the uplifting of emotions by listening to some instrumental movie score that makes you feel connected, the tears coming up when you see two people meeting again after many years and they cry of happiness…THAT is spirituality… AND one moment or the other, by probability of mathematics, we ALL do experience in our lifetime a few of these. Point. Like  electricity, you might not see the Force and God, BUT it is there, just embrace the 4Th dimension, sometimes, it shall then broad your view of what there is really out there.

Pascal Gillon BASc

Founder

infogatherer.com

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that's wonderful Pascal. Thank you.

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There was a time when I would've been posting here every day, coming up with new arguments against all the people who don't believe as I do…but I'm glad that now I can honestly say that I have no desire to make you guys see my way of thinking. Obviously I don't agree with everyone, but I love the fact that so many people are sharing their beliefs with me here, if only because they help confirm the beliefs of others.

I still don't necessarily believe in the spirit, but you guys have givien me new ways of looking at the idea and now I see that, spirit or not, I can be as happy and healthy as anyone else.

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Free Thinks,

How you’ve made all of us smile with this lovely message!

I’ll send you hope that you find your joy…

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Hi, FreeThinks,

Great question(s) and answers.
 
I choose to believe in spirit.  I made that choice at a very young age when I began thinking of a world without the christian god about which I was learning.  I did not feel like I belonged in the blankness, the void of a non-god world, so I chose to believe in a loving, all knowing, all powerful god.  Over the years, the dogma of my early religious training has gone by the wayside, but my belief in god/spirit/higher power continues.  I've also experienced that that there are many ways in which to express the qualities that I associate with spirit, some easier than others, but all of them are good. 

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Hi FreeThinks, I recently came to this site to explore this very issue.  Experience has taught me that concepts can be part of the problem rather than the solutions.  (Ken Wilber talks about maps and territory.) I believe we expect to much out of our minds/intellectual capacity.  Have you ever thought that spirituality may simply be your state of being, i.e., moods, thoughts,etc.  Forget about the label.  Practice listening to your body.  Buddha warned us not to believe something just because someone said it.   Overtime you will discover truths about your very being that you will readily acept because they will be grounded in your life experience. .

Self_Honesty

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I don't understand what you mean when you say that we expect too much of our minds. Can you explain that further, please?

…As to the rest of your post, I agree. Through this thread I have come to see that “spirituality” is just a word – a label, as you put it. It has mystical connotations, but the spirit, if there is one, may not be a mystical thing.

Speaking of experience… I have heard that people are not necessarily the product of their experiences; rather, some of our moods and emotional characteristics are hereditary. Does anyone here know for sure whether or not this is true? I would be very disturbed to find out that I am not the one responsible for my own feelings and actions.

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freethinks,

hi! First, the nature vs. nurture debate– whether or not your emotions and capabilities are hereditary– has been going on for as long as science has had the word “hereditary.”

The simple answer to your question is that genetics are not the cause of the emotions and moods we feel– we are. But some might say one’s past ‘experiences’ could be responsible for one’s future ‘genetics.’ : ) Have you ever checked out those books that gather information scientifically about people who believe they remember past life experiences? That stuff’s pretty fascinating. once there was a five year old who knew as much about ancient egypt as any egyptologist, literally. They had to check everything he (or she) said against all the research.

Now, if you think about it that way, something they might label as “hereditary” could have nothing do do with who one’s parents are.

And I like where you’re going with the word/label thing! There’s nothing mystical in the universe. There’s only the universe.

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Free Thinks

Your Questions are wonderful. Inquire deeply into the nature of exsistance as you are doing already. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the door will be opened. Somebody said that. See if it is true.

with much love,
Joy

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I think it would depend on how you define spirituality. Not everyone who says their spiritual means auras or chi and such. I am spiritual, though don't really have much of an opinion on the examples you gave. I am more of a basic dualist (ie I think that the body and the soul are different but interconnected.) I don't think anyone can tell you why people believe in an external essence apart from their body (be careful with mind as many find that to be the seperate part). The question goes back to ancient times, wher the greatest of the philosophers even ponder such questions.

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When one is able to SEE, then one is able to SEE.  I can see and feel what many can not.  I believe in spirituality–chi, essence, auras, energy–because I can see it.  I cannot deny my sight or my sensation any more than I can prove that what I see–feel–actually exists. 
My view shows me that most people are blind, and that's O.K.

Peace,,,Sun

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Freethinks, hang in there your answers will come with new stops along your journey.  I have been on a spiritual 'quest' for years asking the same questions I saw earlier in the thread.  I read, and really focused on making every day an adventure.  Over time, I met others who were the answer.    It was nothing they said, it was what they did.  I became a sponge, soaking up every ounce of wisdom I could.  Through experience, I am right now still the student.  I don't live by a structured belief system, yet rather a simple plan of actions.  Humans learn best by doing.  Go out and meet people- go on an adventure, your answers will come.  An open mind will set you free. Cherish each moment by following your bliss. Remember that the concept of tomorrow is an idea, not a promise.   

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Wow!  The only thing I want to say is that it is discussions like these that make fall in love with this website over and over again.

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If you find yourself overanalysing things around you then it may be impossible to look inward at yourself as an amazing creature with theoretically infinite possibilities. Only you must choose from the myriad of scenarios that will become your life. Spirituality to me, is a concept of being part of  or the essense of whatever life-giving force created us. To be in touch with spirituality then, is just believing you didnt just fall into this dimension from a time/space  portal. Just my oponion,,,

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UNIFICATION OF PERSPECTIVES ABOUT HOW TO BETTER LOVE EACH OTHER

WHAT MIGHT THIS LOOK LIKE IF WE WERE EFFECTIVELY changing the conversation about what LOVE accomplishes…may we consider these thoughts:

Since this is called the real “evolution” debate, and I consistently hold that evolution is simply love…moving forward.

Remember in your history, the military gave the reason the native americans could not be “assimilated” was because they could not “adapt” to our cultural perspectives?

This extremely magical community of peoples had networked into their cultural teachings a moment now love reality, you can read the articel in my blog; cultural recovery for community humanity as a treatise on love, really.

The capitalist western form of cultural development has us DOUBTING the integrity of others because of suspicions…so we can justify getting ahead and hoarding more than others…patting ourselves on the back for being “smarter” and getting a better deal, so we deserve the “more” for being “smarter”…this leads to push away feelings…to justify this negative mind and it  is a disease, really. honestly. However, because we dont have a cure that people understadn since few know the disease exists, I spend much of my time explaining what love is!

Love…is holding the heart open from moment now, to moment now…when the heart is open, and we feel love..a welling up of good feelings..this..is love

we turn the volume up…or down…yet we keep it open. It causes us to search for the most compassionate response so as not to cause anyone involved in our moment…any pain. So “tough love” does not exist in my book. But then…neither do we…in my reality…so..go figure.

ONE CANT have the heart open whilest also experiencing negative mind/or negative emotion..negative thought ALWAYS generates negative emotion. turn up the volume, and the charge becomes anger, turn down the emotion, and the charge is simply “irritation” yet it is a negative charge, all the same.

magnetic charges are powerful and they are universal forces. If we feed anger, we feed the universal force and size of anger…
thats why all the new agers are shouting for positive thinking all the time.

This is very difficult to authentically acheive if one does not have a soalr initiation, and use the breath with the solar charge to neutrilize or dissolve the negative charges of energy…they build up in the human electrical system. The chakras.. are our wiring system, sort of… (breath action is kriya, a form of yoga, or “god reunion” practice…god, is love…remember?) using the kriya cleans the cobwebs of negative thoughts out of the spine, which host the electrical and nervous systems…the chakras live inside the spinal column…

so this is why every indigenous nation literally worships the sun in the sky, as god…. to receive the solar charge it gives to those who love it enough….(worship) and the himalayan nath yogis, well, this unbroken through the mists of time spiritual system has had masters earning nine black belts per lifetime in energy mastery since the time neanderthals began following lord hanuman….

so, in my opinion…these himalayan physicists are the ones who I take my hat off to. Every time.
 (if you can find one…)

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The way I feel about spirit is it's that something that tells you something bad/good is going to happen.Or when you are faced with a decision to which you already know the choice, but something inside you tells you to go against the logical and go with your “heart.” It's what hurts so deeply when tragedy strikes, and it's what rejoices so wonderfully when wonderful things happen to you.

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What you speak of Stands near the Fire is
called intuition !
But you are right -logic may try to talk you out of it -
but in a dangerous situation - it can be all you have to save yourself.

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I am trying to understand spirituality myself. I have always tried to base my actions on what I believed to be the greater good of mankind -Meaning that I try to help all those I am able too, regardless of outcome or “who's watching”. I honestly do it because I just know its right, not because I feel “balanced” or in tune, or whatever. I was raised as a catholic, but find it difficult to prescribe to a certain belief. To the original poster: you are not alone in thought.

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I feel the same way. I send my kids to church (not even a Catholic one and I am actually Catholic) so that they learn the values because I do believe in being kind to others and treating others as you would want to be treated, but the whole God thing escapes me. I guess I'm just too scientific of a thinker. I need proof. I believe in evolution and scientific theory.

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Spirituality is like a pair of shoes.  What fits you may not fit me, what works for you may not work for me.  Flip-flops are worthless for hiking in the mountains, just as boots don't work on the beach.  And just as purchasing a pair of shoes is a painful, time consuming effort (for me), so is finding the spirituality that best fits you.  You may have to go through several pairs before you find the ONE.

It also is true that there are a lot of people that go barefoot, literally and spiritually.  For what ever reason, whether they can't afford to search, whether they don't like the feel, or whether they won't make the effort.

At the risk of walking this analogy into the ground, understand that Gaia is an enormous shoe convention,  You're going to see ALL shapes, sizes, styles here.  Some you might like, some you don't, some will seem silly; but, some will make you think, “Now, I could wear that!”  You're not going to see a whole lot of barefoot people here, unless they are search for their own style of shoe.

I wish I  had gotten in on this thread a long time ago!! :-)
Tom

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That was an excellent analogy. Being a shoe lover it made a lot of sense to me. You are absolutely right.

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Everyone here has brought up good points, and I'm always intrigued by the beliefs of others.

I, myself, am a bit of a Christian, not a full-blown one because I agree wtih other religions as well. But the general Christian values are what I live by. I'm Spiritualistic to the degree that I believe undoubtably in the Soul, that everybody has their own personal one, and that it shows through our character, giving us a sort of Aura. I think that when you get a “vibe” from someone, you're really just reading their Aura, and some people are more sensitive to it. That's how I think I am: I can read other people very easy, and am usually extremely empathic to their emotions. And I believe that Spirits of a sort exist, that they walk among us - call them what you wish, I think along the lines of Angelic/Demonic beings.

……Am I making any sense?

I dunno, I was just wondering where that fit into the Spiritualistic spectrum.

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Thanks, Jill.

Shoes were the best way for me to see diversity and individualism in a tangible way.  Also, like spirituality, there are a lot of shoes that I think are ridiculous; but, there is no accounting for taste.  :-)

Tom

Re: Spirituality

My spiritual journey is the quest to end my suffering. What has worked best for me is learning to be conscious at all times, in the sense of always being in the moment and accepting or enjoying what im doing, and simply just enjoying being.  Not identifying with form/ego and knowing that all physical form is temporary, but the spirit, is eternal.

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Hi kerri, let me know you got this, because it is a reply to post, and will be easily discoverable only if you are on Notifications for this Group.

You might want to go to http://pods.gaia.com/ii and do a Search this Pod for Eckhart Tolle, there are at least two threads going there about his new book. also there is an actual group participating in the Oprah-Tolle class, in Living Metaphysics Group. So the same, search this pod for Eckhart Tolle to find the relevant posts.
 
Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Spirituality/

Re: Spirituality

What does spirituality do for you?  I think we have seen that some posters don't have any need for spirituality, some use spirituality as a hedge bet, and some consider spirituality as the centre of their existence.

How does spirituality fit into your life?

Re: Spirituality

spirituality isn't about god or you chi or whatever. its about the faith that there is a purpose and a reason for things. its about being true to yourself and your beliefs. what you are describing is religion which focus on belief in certain ideas and things or beings, spirituality has more to do with the individual and its needs on an individual scale. i think that allot of people get spirituality and religion mixed up because religion can not exist without spirituality. 

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Wow.
coding=mysticism
zaazd=religion
hacking=spirituality
          
             =
          =    
              = 









             =                                                                                                                                                     |
          =                                                                                                                                                        |
              =                                                                                                                                                        |











                                                                                                                                                                     = |


Conclusion: Spirituality is the purification of a religion. Censorship of sorts – Zaadz staff :p

But I assure that mysticism is the thing.

Re: Spirituality

for me, spirituality is following God's call for me in my life. it does not require yoga, a special diet, a “good deeds” chart or a list of movies i'm not allowed to see. it is living a full, passionate life for God. it's not about “religion”. religion tends to be a slough of rituals and lists and requirements. that's not what God is all about. He believes in LOVE and wants you to do the same.

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Re: Spirituality

Bruce,

Thank you for that post.  It helps to articulate for me my own beliefs/awareness/knowing. 

Spirituality for me is the realization that consciousness–that internal awareness–is the true reality.  Consciousness creates physical reality, or the illusion of it.   

I'm not sure that physical matter really exists–rather it is a collective projection of spirit.   I do not believe that each of us is a separate bag containing a separate spirit.  We are all one super-conscious spirit, creating and experiencing infinite realities simultaneously.  

 

Re: Spirituality

Asking people why they believe in spirituality is like people asking you why you do not believe in spirituality.  Why ask why? 

We all believe what we believe and what “works” for us. Beliefs fill the mental, psychological, and emotional needs we have to find some meaning in life.  Everyone believes in something and that something is part of their guidance system for living - their “spirituality.” 

Spirituality, I believe,  is  of the collective mental, psychological and emotional nature of every person.  It's what “moves” each person to do what they do in life and act how they act in any situation.  I believe every human being is spiritual.  To give or not to give, to meditate or not, to pray or not is still spirituality in action. Spirituality is living what we believe as opposed to  faith which is a religion we choose to particpate in. 

This is what “works” for me and is not meant to provoke anyone else's beliefs.  

Great question…and lots of interesting responses. 

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I've been sudying my ass off on the question of what is spirituality, what is consciousness and what is reality for the last few years now - diligently studying it ….and I really know, feel with the depth of all my reasoning, rational understanding and analytical abilit,y and, what's more, with the depth of my intuitive non-cognitive part of my mind and being….that all paths and branches of knowledge lead to the same conclusion:  It's all consciousness …  reality, spirituality, the psyche … all the pure and  undivided, non-dual, utterly entangled interbeing of one, unitive Meta-Consciousness…. Physics, metaphysics, theology and and psychology all, I believe, point to this same ageless truth.

If you all haven't read Gary Zhukav's ”The Dancing Wu Li Masters”, I highly reccomend it. 

At page 31, Zhukav juxtaposes the views of Carl Jung (to many if not most, the greatest Western psychologist, therapeutic analyst and expositor of the workings of the psyche yet), and Wolfgang Pauli (a Nobel Prize-winning physicist), and comes to a most sartling, and liberating conclusion - a conclsion that most fair-minded, scientific readers will be hard-pressed to refute, I believe, if they press on and give Zhukav's layman's analysis of the great advances of 20th Century physics - relativity and quantum theory - a considered study. 
Quoting Jung and then Pauli, Zhukav writes:

“According to quantum mechanics there is no such thing as objectivity.  We cannot eliminate ourselves from the picture.  We are a part of nature, and when we study nature there is no way around the fact that nature is studying itself.  Physics has become a branch of psychology, or perhaps the other way round.

Carl Jung, the Swiss psycholgist, wrote:

The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate.  That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner contradictions, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposite halves.

Jung's friend, the Nobel Prize winning physicist, Wolfgang Pauli, put it this way:

From an inner center the psyche seems to move outward, in the sense of an extraversion, into the physical world …”

“If these men are correct, then physics is the study of the structure of consciousness” (emphasis added).

Re: Spirituality

I've been sudying my ass off on the question of what is spirituality, what is consciousness and what is reality for the last few years now - diligently studying it ….and I really know, feel with the depth of all my reasoning, rational understanding and analytical abilit,y and, what's more, with the depth of my intuitive non-cognitive part of my mind and being….that all paths and branches of knowledge lead to the same conclusion:  It's all consicusness …  reality, spirituality, the psyche … all the pure and  undivided, non-dual, utterly entangled interbeing of one, unitive Meta-Consciousness…. Physics, metaphysics, theology and and psychology all, I believe, point to this same ageless truth.

If you all haven't read Gary Zhukav's ”The Dancing Wu Li Masters”, I highly reccomend it. 

At page 31, Zhukav juxtaposes the views of Carl Jung (to many if not most, the greatest Western psychologist, therapeutic analyst and expositor of the workings of the psyche yet), and Wolfgang Pauli (a Nobel Prize-winning physicist), and comes to a most sartling, and liberating conclusion - a conclsion that most fair-minded, scientific readers will be hard-pressed to refute, I believe, if they press on and give Zhukav's layman's analysis of the great advances of 20th Century physics - relativity and quantum theory - a considered study. 
Quoting Jung and then Pauli, Zhukav writes:

“According to quantum mechanics there is no such thing as objectivity.  We cannot eliminate ourselves from the picture.  We are a part of nature, and when we study nature there is no way around the fact that nature is studying itself.  Physics has become a branch of psychology, or perhaps the other way round.

Carl Jung, the Swiss psycholgist, wrote:

The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate.  That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner contradictions, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposite halves.

Jung's friend, the Nobel Prize winning physicist, Wolfgang Pauli, put it this way:

From an inner center the psyche seems to move outward, in the sense of an extraversion, into the physical world …”

“If these men are correct, then physics is the study of the structure of consciousness” (emphasis added).

Re: Spirituality

hi bruce - folks

a study of the structure of consciousness . would that be an interior structure or an exterior structure? or two ways at once?
at the interior level we would have to consider whether the study is done on a seperate, nondual, or absolute (pure consciousness) state of being. suppose the study is done from a nondual state, there is unity so it is nonrelative, there is no other being. this is really fascinating as it implies a movement from newtonian prerelativity to einsteinian nonrelativity to nondual post relativity.
at the exterior level nature is studying itself as the the physicist studies the universe. quite evidently the nondual state is dynamic, so the study will be a live report. the technology involved will itself be alive. in a sense if iam telling my washing machine i want it to send an email it is allready adapting to do so. iam not being ridiculous entirely, nanotechnology maybe scheduled to perform such sequences. but the point really is that the user is still seen as seperate from the technology. which is interesting as the technology will have to be not just intelligent but sentient. i think we can dismiss this phobia about the grid taking over, cause this touch and feel grid may not be a dumbass. the domain of physics meantime coalesces with other domains. a multiplicity that replaces time and space as the operative instrument while not excluding it.
which leads upto a biggish question. is the nondual state nonrelative since it has transended physical reality while still in the physical realm? a nonrelativity that ironically implies pure action. and is that the same as the nonrelativity in which theres no other being? the mystics have said that and it seems fair to say that the relative makes no dent on the absolute( p c )
and there is the stable mystical worldview that p c wouldnt be aware of its own existence if it were not for the relative physical world. there would be no appreciation.
it kinda adds up, its like a one way street that works both ways. any thoughts?

this is a funky planet and theres no way out of here - valli

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oh no. I saw this thread and I was like “oh man… stuff is gonna go down..people are gonna get pompous… dangit…” and I didnt read all of it, but it seems that hasnt been the case so far, so that is cool.

well, if you asked the question actually to be answered, and not just for it to be asked, then…

I believe in “spirituality” because I long to be better than I am. By “better” I mean more pure, more good in essence. My spirituality is Christ. I know that I tend to be self-centered- I get apathetic. My nature isnt bent on lying and murder, but isn't necessarily all that giving either. And it really makes me sick, because the very things I hate, I do. And the things I want to do, it seems I cant.

Spirituality doesn't exist in my life for spirituality's sake- it exists because God came after me and offered me a life of love, and for some reason love changes my nature and makes me new.
I dont like who I am without it, I long to be who I am with it, my spirit dries up without God's existance in my life. Spirituality is not in the least bit nebulous or new age to me, it simply refreshes and ignites my soul.

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Wow. I've just been reading some of the amazing things people have written here. You have truly sparked a storm of philosophy and thought, very beautiful thoughts… I don't know if what I offer can amount to very much amongst so many others, but I guess my idea of spirituality is a little different from yours, and from a lot of people who wrote here. First of all, I've always thought of myself as a spiritual person, probably because I feel so much, and I have to believe that all of that feeling comes from something divine inside me. Maybe I'm one of those people who believes easily in something more than myself, who almost needs to believe it. But it's almost come easily for me. I've become more spiritual through the years, though my years are not so many yet. I guess because the more I see, the more there is that confirms my belief in an essential beauty, and in God, I suppose. To me, spirituality is that which truly makes a person religious. I don't mean that kind of religiousness that goes through the motions, that believes but does not feel. Religion and spirituality are two seperate ideas, but I think that they complement one another. Certainly religion without spirituality, without that depth of feeling and knowing, seems weak and empty, a food that fails to provide real sustenance and satisfaction. I think there are a lot of religious people who are unhappy, and they don't know why, and I think perhaps part of the reason why is that they cannot really make themselves feel what they practice, it is not real to them, really.

I don't know if this answers or pertains to what you originally posted, but I hope it helps… as to whether you're alone in your unspirituality, I don't think so. But then, my concept of spirituality is different, and I doubt that you are without it. Perhaps it is a presumption to say that, I don't know. This post is kind of old by now, so you've probably moved on and aren't interested in it anymore. If that is so, it's ok, but if not, these are my thoughts. I hope you find something of worth in them. :)

Samantha