Skeptical...

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What do you all think about this article?

Spending thousands of dollars for a Placebo doesn't really appeal to me.

Peace,
Hae

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Also on the same site is an article (http://www.soundonmind.com/node/28) that references what might be the only peer reviewed study of entrainment using binaural beats (http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.6201). Unfortunately it only had 4 subjects and so is not statistically significant, but it did follow a randomized, blinded, placebo-controlled crossover experiment format. It's a short article and not to technical but to summarize, No support for steady state entrainment was found and the subjects who did listen to the binaural beats actually showed INCREASED depression and POORER recall.

As the Provider of Holosync calls itself the Centerpointe RESEARCH Institute you have to wonder where are all the results of their research?  They are not in peer reviewed publications and while the anecdotal evidence supplied by members of this group is compelling if there was not a one year money back guarantee I would not have purchased the product.

I am myself an ongoing experiment and I am continuing with an open mind, I enjoy the sounds on the dive and if this enables me to establish a solid meditation practise it will have been valuable. And if anyone would like to point out that I have only just begun to use the product I would just like to quate from the Centerpointe website ”meditate as deeply as a Zen monk, literally at the touch of a button, , and do it the very first time, and every time” it didn't happened.

Davybuoy

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I've read a few so-called research articles over the last four years.  Most are by people who appear to be sincere in their efforts to protect us from getting “taken”, but they tend to fall short on many of the technical details, as does this one.

Everyone seems to want “peer review” research work - and I'd really like to have them define that more clearly - because not an awful lot of people would fit into that “peer” grouping, by their standards, I'm sure.  As well, this particular writer (somewhat accidentally) actually supports what he says isn't happening in his paragraph beginning “Normally, when the same sound arrives at different times at the ears, the brain uses this information to determine where the sound has come from. … and further”.

It is clear the writer doesn't understand the whole idea behind  using binaurals to “stress” the brain - what does s/he think is happening when the brain is trying to “work out where the sound is coming from”? Couple that with something this person's research doesn't seem to include in their research, is that lowering the carrier wave also creates a minute amount of stress - and it is exactly those stresses that push the brain into creating new neuro pathways, to accomodate the increased amount of information, and needed resources to handle it.  Which in turn assists you, in your every day living, to be able to move past the stressors that most people aren't able to handle as well, on an increasing basis.

Another part of this person's research that seems to show a lack of understanding is that they don't seem to have any understanding of the real purpose of meditation, or of what occurs when meditation deepens beyond the “alpha” (just relaxation) stage.  All of this persons research seems to focus only on the Beta and Alpha wave-lengths, whereas the deeper Theta and Delta brainwaves are ignored.  Quite different things happen at those deeper levels, than happens in the upper ranges.  Another interesting thing here, is that with the “Gamma” entrainment in the Holosync's newer 'extra' CD's, these are at much higher than Beta - which according to what this person is saying, it is definitely not able to create binaural beats in that range.  Or perhaps better stated, to create brain-state changes because of it.  So there is a lot that is being missed or ignored here.

Using an MP3 (even at the high bit rate of 320kbps) still tends to chop off the top and bottom of the sine wave, although it may not be so displayed on any visual output, because most programs created for everyday use (for layman use, in other words) to see this are not probably accurate enough to show the clipping, and may actually fill in where it would occur.  This would tend to scew visual results, and therefore conclusions drawn from those results as well.

I guess if there could be a “peer review group” out there, even taking only half of those nearly three-quarters of a million participants in the Centerpointe programs, would probably show that there MUST be something happening to improve their lives, or they would no longer be in the program.  Why does this seem to be such a hard thing for those who need “proof” to accept?  Seems to me that would be considerably more than could be attributed to just a placebo effect.

My own decision to start listening almost four years ago was based on recommendation, not research.  I had also had experience for 20 years using another so-called meditation tape called “Alpha Sounds”, put out by a company calling themselves the American Research Institute in the late 1970's. These probably had some sort of entrainment factor - but after 20 years of use had pretty much reached the extent of where the artifically generated sounds were doing anything to move me along to where I wanted to go.  I eventually had a friend transfer the tape data onto a CD in wav format - it nearly fit three times, which gave me a full hour and a half of listening.  It was a pleasant “high”, that basically kept me pain-free most of the time (I had arthritis, which has since pretty much disappeared since I've used Holosync).

BUT when I listened to the online demo (at the time it was online) from Centerpointe, I got quite a bit more of a “charge” from just the 10 minutes or so where Bill actually wasn't giving his schpeel - and THAT's what convinced me that there was something going on that I'd like to explore further.  The thing in all of this is, I don't think most people need all the gabbledygoop research - they will go by results.  If they don't get results, then they go elsewhere - and like someone else in this thread mentioned, you have a year to send it back if you don't see results.  Even from plain meditation, most people take many years to see results, so regardless that the CRI advertising seems a bit “hyped” at times, if it's going to work for you, then Holosync will do a whole lot more in that year, than if you just meditated an hour per day.  Some people experience notable results in only a few weeks or months - for others it does take a while.  Some results, unless observation is ongoing, are subtle and may not really be realized as occuring, until one day, something comes up and you say “hey, I did that easier than before” or someone else perhaps notices the changes in you.

So, this might sound rather “unscientific”, but my own advice to someone just starting out with Holosync is NOT to get to caught up in the research (or perceived lack of it), but rather to spend that time listening to Holosync, or perhaps even participating in some of the other programs for self-improvement that are out there.  You'll be putting your time to much better use, IMHO.

Cheers!
Gem

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Thanks for your reply Gemstar. I will take it to heart when using the program, and stop worrying so much. Like you said, if within a year I don't get any results, I can always get my money back. Reading your reply has freed me to really try to relax and enjoy the program, and see what comes up for myself.

Blessings,
Hae

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Just so you're clear on this, Haelan……

If after a year of using Awakening Prologue you're not happy, you can get your money back (read the fine print that came with it).

If, in the meantime, you move on to the Awakening Level 1 and higher parts of the program, you WILL NOT get your money back.

So you do have a year to work with Awakening Prologue (most people generally use it for four to six months, although I've known some people to go far beyond that time), in which some people decide “not for me”, but most move forward.  The biggest lament I have heard from people has been getting into tight money and being held back from getting the next level, when they were champing at the bit to move forward.  A little bit of planning would solve that, though, by starting to put a few dollars a week aside in a jar (the cost of a daily coffee and donut), soon there's ample to cover the next level(s).  Then, if you decide to not move forward to the next levels, you still will get your money back AND you'll have saved enough to have a nice weekend fling. Hint!!!

Cheers!

Gem

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I have read some of these post, and the way I see it, you can do research on a product. Go on any forum and research any book, program, TV, HDTV, DVD Player, ect… Everyone has something to say backed by some research. The fact that Holosync has a 1 year money back guarantee, should be enough. If you actually spend your time trying to research Holosync and reading what people say your year will be up. Just use the product if it works keep it, if it does not return it and get your cash back. If you try to read what everyone writes it will drive you INSANE….. LOL… trust me I did this when I was buying my HDTV, and every product I buy, but I am trying to stop the madness….. I really can drive you nuts when you buy a product then read an article like this, and then you think you were ripped off…. Just use the product and find out for yourself that is what I am going to do, I will post my results here in a few months.

Sean

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Haelan:
Thanks for the article.
Have you seen the pdf that Centerpointe makes available about the research in neurotechnology? They have hidden it on their web site, so I'll link you to my copy of it. They gave me permission to host it on my web site because I'm an affiliate.

http://www.liveonpurpose.info/holosync-report.shtml

Just go to the bottom of the page I link to and click Download.

Gemstar: What a thorough response! You go. That's how I decided too. I realized how old Centerpointe is, and that thousands of people use the program and keep getting deeper levels. There is no contract to finish to the end; and you just buy each level as you see fit. I've been there, as you describe, chomping at the bit to get the next level, but having trouble paying the bills first!

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Haelan,

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Gemstar – I agree that the original article doesn’t completely accurately represent the studies of binaural beats. However, Gemstar I am wondering if you can produce any evidence what so ever for the claim that lowering the carrier frequency “stress the brain”to create new neural pathways. It is Centerpoints claim to uniqueness (though several others have now copied that claim) and justification for its many (expensive) levels and yet I have found no basis for the claim other then anecdotal accounts which from people who have no way of knowing if the results they are getting come form the lowering the carrier wave or simply long term use of Delta entrainment.

There is no doubt that binaural beats have a brainwave entrainment effect. There has been, in fact, a lot of research done to prove it. However there are lots of products that do just as good a job of entrainment has holosync at a much more reasonable price. In fact binaural  beats are not even the best form of audio entrainment just the most popular (partly because you can do a pretty good job of masking the sound with others) 

Gemstar you were repeatedly critcal of other peoples lack of full understanding of the meaning of brainwaves but your own understanding  seems lacking to me or you would know just how hyped the centerpointe discussion on it is.

First even if brainwave entrainment could (and it can’t – ill come back to this) induce the brainwaves of a long term meditator (Zen Monk or yogi in a cave for twenty years  –both of which Centerpointe has said their product will take you deeper then) the fact is the actual structure of the brains of long term meditators are different then other people. If you think of the brainwave pattern as software It would be like running it on a much older and slower cpu. So you might experience a similar state but it would lack  the resolution that a more advanced meditator having the same pattern.

The above statement assumed that you could infact entrain someone’s brain into the exact same brainwave pattern as and advanced meditator. This actually is not the case at least not yet. Centerpoints claim to take you ‘Deeper” than an advanced meditator is so fraught with misunderstandings and fallacies that it is hard to know where to begin taking it apart

First there is the mistaking correlation with equality. You can correlate common brainwave occurrences with certain states but that doesn’t mean that having those brainwaves will produce that exact state.

Second Centerpointe seems to be tying the notion of deeper with “slower” That producing delta is a deeper meditation (and thus more profound or powerful) then theta or alpha. This is also tied to the misnomer that brain is only producing one brainwave frequency at a time. Or for the slightly less poorly informed that the dominant frequency (the one with the highest amplitude) is what correlates to the state you are experiencing.. The truth is that the correlation of brainwaves to state is a very complex code of what brainwaves with what frequencies in what area of the brain. Anyone who has ever been hooked up to a eeg machine with a full spectral analysis from multiple channels can see that the brain is always producing brainwaves of many different frequencies at the same time with different areas of the brain producing different sites. (I own such a machine). Maxwell Cade (who was a long time student of Zen) did a multi frequency analysis of advanced meditators from many traditions and what he found was that when they all had a similar profile when they where not meditating. It showed high amplitudes of frequencies in all the major bandwidths (gamma was not known when he was doing the study) simultaneously. He dubbed this the Awakened Mind Pattern. What would happen when they meditated would very depending on the kind of meditation but most included high amplitudes in all bandwidths or all minus beta just with different configuration then the basic awakened mind patter.

More profound meditative experiences will often include moderate amplitude of  Delta and is often lacking in the mediation of less skilled meditators,  However having extremely high amplitudes of Alpha synchronized center, front, back, left and right produces all of the classic attributes to deep and profound meditation. – Bliss, feelings of ones, clarity, spaciousness and presence.  It is very rare for this to happen on its own. On the other hand high amplitudes of Delta happens ever night when you sleep. If they occur in meditation without the presence at least moderate amplitudes of alpha and theta then the state that occurs is usually one considered a fault in the meditation, at least in the Buddhist view. It can be very blissful but it is lacking presence and so it doesn’t lead to liberation..

So you see Delta doesn’t equal deeper or more profound meditation even if it seems more blissful.  It seems that high amplitude cultivation in all bandwidths is more on target. The fact that the decent part of the Holosync program steps you down through the other stages may help with this some but it doesn’t spend time cultivating this. That you stay awake while listening will contributing some of the other frequencies but not in likely in the amplitudes of the awakened mind pattern.

Also the synchronization the occurs is strongest in the temporal lobes (the area most directly effected by auditory entrainment) and to a lesser degree general right left synchronization but does little by itself for front to back (or right to front , or left to back etc) This is true of all audio entrainment not just holosync

Holosync does clearly affect your state. However just because it does affect you state does nothing to verify the claims they make alls it proves is that entainment works and they do a decent implementing it, however,  as I said, there are many other less expensive audio entrainment programs that do as good or perhaps even better of a job (to be fair there are also some that don’t do as good a job) 

Delta entrainment does have many positive effects especially on the limbic system (which is more likely the source of Holosyncs claimed emotional clearing effect) . So I am not denying that holosync is useless. It just makes claims that are clearly hype.

While the results you have gotten make this hype forgivable to you, I think the hype has a huge detrimental effect both to the field of brainwave entrainment and the world of meditation.

Brainwave entrainment has incredible potential to support personal transformation that has only berly begun to be tapped. All that all of the “instant meditation” hype does is distract form that real potential.

Gemstar you say “Even from plain meditation, most people take many years to see results, so regardless that the CRI advertising seems a bit “hyped” at times, if it's going to work for you, then Holosync will do a whole lot more in that year, than if you just meditated an hour per day”

I wonder what you base this opinion because it sound just like the Centerpoint marketing hype and is filled with meaningless generalizations. What is just “plain” meditation? There is unbelievably huge spectrum of what can be called authentic meditation and that doesn’t even include the equally vast amount of stuff called meditation that has nothing to do with meditation in the sense related to a Zen Monk or Yogi in a cave. When you say “most people” are you talking about people who are using authentic methods under the guidance of a skilled teachers? If so,  then your assertion that it takes years to see results is just not true. Ken Wilber, who Bill Harris likes to quote, often quotes studies that show 4 years of daily traditional meditation generally produces growth through two stages in several different growth stage models. Nothing else studied produces more then half stage over a whole life. With 2 stages in four year that would be approximately ½ stage in one year. So clearly genuine meditation creates results in far less then “years”, By the time you  “years it produces more growth then any other process examined. How well Holosync compares to this is unknown because there are know known studies. However if Bill Harris is to be held up as the star example since after all he has been using holosync the longest, then I am suspicious.

I don’t know Bill Harris personally and I keep wanting to have a good opinion of him because he is associated with others that I do respect like Paul Sheelie and recently he has been promoting Genpo Roshi who I suspect is genuine and he says intelligent things on his blog sometimes. However what he has shown himself to be is a slick marketer who is quite willing to lie and make claims that are simply false either intentionally or in ignorance about the field he is supposed to be an expert in. When I say lie in mean out right lie. I recently got an offer from him where he said he talked his friend at “early to rise” into giving away a free subscription to their daily newsletter. A special offer just for his subscriber that won’t last. However Early to Rise’s newsletter has always been free to anyone who finds there way to the website. Many internet marketers offer it as part of bonuses for purchases and many just promote. Now this might be standard marketing hype but that kind of hype is not congruent with the integral business practices that he tries to imply he is aligned with and it is not an example of vast growth in development. He also used to call the program “the end” because it was ‘the last self improvement package you will ever need. However he now promotes as a JV partner or affiliate many other programs. This would be fine if not for his hyped claims about his own product. In fact I am glad he promotes these other things because many of them are likely to be of greater long term benefit then his own products.

I don’t mean to belittle what benefits people have gotten from holosync because my studies and experience indicates that delta entrainment has many real benefits. But I also feel obliged to respond when I come across someone defending hype that damages two fields that are important to me, Meditation and using Technology to support personal transformation.

There is a lot more I could say on this topic. I didn’t even go in to the mistake ideas about meditation that are also contribute to the false claims. Nor did I go into how brainwave entrainment actually can be used to support getting faster results from meditation, but I‘ve already written 3 pages. For people who are interested I refer you to the blog I recently started: www.transfomationaltech.projectglobalalchemy.com/blog, so far I only wrote an introduction as this blog is part of a larger blog matrix of integrally related topics and I felt I needed to develop others first. I will be posting specifically on the topic of the hype and potential of brainwave entrainment within 2 weeks. I also should say I do plan on monetizing the blog eventually  so if that is offensive to you then save yourself the offence and don’t go to it, however you will be missing a lot of free quality information I will be providing.  (I found this thread because I get alerted by google any time info on brainwave entrainment gets posted to the web. It is an interesting synchronicity that I also just recently became a friend of Haelen (the person who started the thread)  here on “gaia” and am in the middle of an email discussion about a topic only tangentially related to this thread.)

Re: Skeptical...

Dear Tamo:

Ordinarily, most new members at least make an effort to introduce themselves before they jump in to challenge something that someone has written - nevertheless - Welcome to the Holosync pod!  You might actually want to scroll down on the home page to read what Pelle, the Cultivator of this pod, has suggested are the purposes of this pod.

As to your challenge that I produce something that you are very certain I won't be able to produce (the information regarding the lowered carrier), my information on this is from what I remember of reading (almost three years ago - my memory HAS improved that much, at least!) in Bill Harris Threshold's of the Mind book, wherein he produced enough information that had a basis in what I figured was pretty solid thinking, if nothing else, to make it quite plausible.  Beyond that, I don't always tend to just listen to, or to just read what is “out there” - but since my other methods of acquiring information would probably not fit with your “prove it or else” tenor anyways, I'll resist spamming the group with them.

As far as the price of Holosync, opposite any other entrainment product out there, few if any of them offer support (or it is so limited as to be non-existent), and most have attempted to copy Holosync, as cheap knock-offs or butchered variations of same.  Since most of the participants on this pod, are already moving forward with this program, I'm wondering why that would even be something you'd think necessary to bring up here.  Unless, perhaps you have something else you'd rather peddle to them?

I also really have to wonder, since you are a new member here, where you came up with the idea that “Gemstar you were repeatedly (my emphasis) critcal of other peoples lack of full understanding of the meaning of brainwaves but your own understanding  seems lacking to me or you would know just how hyped the centerpointe discussion on it is.”.  I don't agree with your observations on either count.  Unless you've done some major research on me (which I doubt you have) you really have no idea how much (or little, as you think) I know.

I will tell you that a very good deal of my time the last 30 years has involved the study of the mind, how it works, and the overall psychological and physiological factors involved in meditation, and more recently hypnosis and NLP.  So, much of what I have said in this particular thread is also based on that understanding, extensive study and application by myself and observations of students in my meditation classes over the years.  In that respect then, I was a fairly advanced meditator when starting Holosync.  I don't push any particular religious doctrine or required format in meditation (as you suggested Buddhism wouldn't agree with certain ideas that Bill promotes), but rather allow for exploration of what suits the meditator best for what they want to accomplish in meditating.

I am willing to trust that this is enough for me to be understanding enough about the subject to discuss it in layman's terms, without blustering out into high-faluting (and at times absolutely boring) technical jargon.  My observations of how my own students progressed in their meditation practices would, I think, give me a fairly sound basis for what I said regarding the difference in “ordinary” (not necessarily Buddhist) meditation as run against the same amount of time using Holosync, and since several of my students also use Holosync now, I also have those observations (in where their normal meditations have progressed) to further support my words here.  I have no way of equating what Ken Wilber would call a “stage” with what I do, as I do not follow the Integral practices or whatever definitions you are assuming I should know and follow..  From my understanding of the intent of Bill when creating Holosync, I don't think he intended that it would necessarily be based on Buddhist or Integralist ideology to the exclusion of any other ideology out there.  Many Holosync users are Christian, and would probably strongly resent your apparent assertions that only Buddhist and/or Integral meditation would be proper.  Although I don't know for certain, I would suspect the whole spectrum of religious thought, or none at all, would be represented by Holosync users, on a world-wide basis.

Most of your protestations would better be served by venting to Bill Harris himself.  I find it amusing that you rant and rave about Bill's “hyped” marketing, but didn't hesitate to spam this group with a hyper-link and a rather large paragraph on your stuff.

As I stated in my earlier post - MY decision to use Holosync was based on some reasonable research, and recommendation of a trusted source.  Certain aspects of my own “psychic” life have found extensive improvements in relation to the deepness of the meditations I've experienced with Holosync, as well as so many other beneficial things on all aspects of my being, that if I sound like a version of Centerpointes so-called “hype”, well, maybe there IS something to it, after all!  I have strong doubts that, were it not for Holosync, that I'd even be here to write these words.  For that blessing, I'm very grateful that there was enough so-called “hype” to move me toward exploring it further.

Goodnight!

Gem

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Hi All!

For those of you who were asking about Integral earlier, I think Gemstar has given an excellet example of an Integral analysis of this product.  Integral, at its most basic, values multiple perspectives.  Here's a quick rundown of how this would apply to a human being:

Singular interior - Your own thoughts, feelings, experiences of yourself and the world 

Singular exterior - Your body, brain (and resulting brainwaves), and other personal “hardware”

Plural interior - A shared “we” space, such as the shared intellectual and emotional material on this board, any conversation that transmits meaning 

Plural exterior - Places where “we” space can be observed and measured: Schools, the economy, Gaia, etc.

Centerpointe really likes to push the singular exterior, i.e., the brainwaves.  I think they do that on purpose; most people who emphasize the singular interior don't need any convincing, they're already interested in (and sometimes attuned to) their experiences, their emotional material, whatnot.  People who emphasize the singular exterior generally want sustainable proof.  This is totally understandable, and to ignore this part would be shortsighted.  But it's just as shortsighted not to reference your own interior experience, as well as that of other people!  Singular exterior proof can only apply to its own section.  I've been reading Thresholds of Mind as well, and it too comes across as plausible, so that part of my investigation is satisfied.  I'm always interested in more material here, but it can quickly become a rabbit hole of back and forth: “The original study wasn't double-blind.” “The sample of people used were not initially tested for depression.”  “The sample used was from one particular region.”  etc.  While these are all important, there has to be a point where you move from this one way of analysis to others.

The interior analysis is also what convinced me to try the product.  How it affected me while I used it informed my decision to purchase, and the reports of other people also informed my decision.  I'm not ignoring scientific research regarding the subject, but since it IS a product to help you with your interior space, that's the information that I'm going to prefer gathering.

Which is pretty much what Gemstar said above, in a much more elegant and personal way. =)

Blessings,
Elizabeth

Re: Skeptical...

Re: Skeptical…

Dear Gemstar and all

I apologize if  the confrontational tone of my post was offensive. I didn’t introduce myself because I joined the pod specifically to respond to this thread. Someone (who happen to have just initiate a dialogue with me a week ago) expressed skepticism about Holosync and you defended Holosyc. I jumped in because you made claims that you asserted as fact that can’t be verified. Had this thread been simply people who are already using and happy with holosync I never would have jumped in. Since I have,  feel compelled to address Gemstar response.

Gemstar said

As to your challenge that I produce something that you are very certain I won't be able to produce (the information regarding the lowered carrier), my information on this is from what I remember of reading (almost three years ago - my memory HAS improved that much, at least!) in Bill Harris Threshold's of the Mind book, wherein he produced enough information that had a basis in what I figured was pretty solid thinking, if nothing else, to make it quite plausible. Beyond that, I don't always tend to just listen to, or to just read what is “out there” - but since my other methods of acquiring information would probably not fit with your “prove it or else” tenor anyways, I'll resist spamming the group with them. 

You stated that it is as though it was verifiable fact not something that ‘is quite plausible” .. “this person's research doesn't seem to include in their research, is that lowering the carrier wave also creates a minute amount of stress” By emphasizing  “their” by underlineing it  you seem to be implying there is some research that that does include this ‘fact’ However you didn’t seem to like me asking you to tell me where to find this research. I suspected you could not because I’ve looked hard for that evidence. However since you stated it is a fact  I invited you to tell me what evidence you had to make such an assertion. It is not rude to ask what basis someone has for stating something as fact. (and you did state it as a fact). I’ve read threshold of the mind. Yes he presents some interesting even plausible theories about how the brain is open system with a dissipative structure and that by ‘collapsing the dissipative structure” would create spontaneous transformation.  There is evidence that that is theory is true. However that book offers not a shred of evidence that lowering the carrier frequency creates the stress necessary to “collapse the dissipative structure” I have found no research into any effects of lowering the carrier frequency. The only research on carrier frequency in relation to binaural beats suggests that there is an ideal carrier frequency that changes according to the target brainwave frequency you are attempting to entrain with binaural beats. This research would suggest that Centerpointe carrier frequencies are not the optimum for achieve entrainment. All the research Bill Harris  refers to for support for his product is about the effectiveness of  binaural beats for brainwave entrainment.. (All research done by others, I have yet to see any research from Centerpointe “Research” Institute) None that supports the claim that lowering the carrier frequency has any effect what so ever. I have never said that it doesn’t but I would like someone to give me a reason for claiming  it beside “Bill said” unless you can show me why Bill Harris has made the claim.  My “prove it tenor” comes from you stated something as a fact especially in a way that implies there is some research. . If your reasons fo saying it are that you channeled it or some other form of nonrational (I did not say irrational) from of knowing then say so. Whether or not I find this valid is not relevant.  You would be naming your source. I assert things based on my intuition all the time but I say what the source is when I put it forth. I leave it up to others to evaluate the validity of the source. Had you said my intuitive knowing  (or my channeled guide or what ever this other source of know you refer to is)  I would never have challanged you to prove it because there is no way to do so. However you did imply that there was a research basis for your claim.

Gemstar said

As far as the price of Holosync, opposite any other entrainment product out there, few if any of them offer support (or it is so limited as to be non-existent), and most have attempted to copy Holosync, as cheap knock-offs or butchered variations of same.  Since most of the participants on this pod, are already moving forward with this program, I'm wondering why that would even be something you'd think necessary to bring up here.  Unless, perhaps you have something else you'd rather peddle to them?

I have never posted on this pod because as you say most of the participants are happy users of holosync. However a) I found this thread without coming to the pod  so others might, and b) the thread was about someone being skeptical. I don’t bother arguing with converts. Also while I think you are mistaken about your facts I didn’t once question your motivation for your post. You make a good point about the Holosync support. I never used it so I can’t say if it is any good or not but yes they do have it and perhaps it is worth the value. But if the carrier lowering the carrier frequency theory is not valid tehn ther is no justifactio for the ongoing purchases. Since no ones including Bill Harris has shown evidence for it and since the claim to meditate like a Zen Monk or Yogi at the push of the button is demonstrably utterly false. (verifiable by anyone with an eeg machine and access to the real research with real Zen Monks and Yogis, I find no reason to believe it. If someone wants to believe based on your intuitive sources of knowing, as long they know it is your intuitive knowing and not research, then I have no problem with it. Also only a few of the many, many, programs out tere attempt to copy Holosync. Several were around long before Holosync. One, Hemisync of the Monroe Institute (which does actual research),  is the basis for much of the research that Bill Harris uses to support his product claims. You call them cheap knock butchered of copies. Have you tried them? do you know their butchered from experience? The technology behind Holosync is very simple. Anyone with a little sound engineering skill could reverse engeneer the sound frequencies and make them on their own all with free software you could download. So while I think the copy cats who are selling nothing but duplicates of Holosync are unethical, they are just as effective (though as you point out, lacking support) . I wasn’t referring to these when I talked about other products. Remember I was going on the assumptions that the carrier frequency thing is bogus, the knock offs you mention also advertise this as one of their qualities. I am talking about all the other brainwave entrainment products. Some of these claim to entrain multiple frequencies in the same pattern as the awakened mind. Whether or not this is effective they are at least closer to actual research on meditation and most don’t claim to make you instantly meditate like a Zen Monk, Just that it helps, which it can.  (I would have mentioned specific ones with my affiliate links but then you would really think I was spamming and try and use that try and negate the clear and obvious validity of my point.)

Gemstar said

I also really have to wonder, since you are a new member here, where you came up with the idea that “Gemstar you were repeatedly (my emphasis) critcal of other peoples lack of full understanding of the meaning of brainwaves but your own understanding  seems lacking to me or you would know just how hyped the centerpointe discussion on it is.”.  I don't agree with your observations on either count.  Unless you've done some major research on me (which I doubt you have) you really have no idea how much (or little, as you think) I know

The only mistake I made in that statement was that I said “people” I should have the person of the article since that was what I was referring to. I came up with the idea by reading your one post.

“It is clear the writer doesn't understand the whole idea behind using binaural to “stress” the brain - what does s/he think is happening when the brain is trying to “work out where the sound is coming from”?”

“Another part of this person's research that seems to show a lack of understanding “

No I didn’t research you. I said “seems” based on what you wrote in this thread. Did you research the author of the original article? Based only on what he wrote you state that it is “clear he doesn’t understand”  So I wonder why you get so ruffled by me critiquing your understanding based on what you wrote. Why should I have needed to research you unless you researched the other person. ?

Gemstar said

I will tell you that a very good deal of my time the last 30 years has involved the study of the mind, how it works, and the overall psychological and physiological factors involved in meditation, and more recently hypnosis and NLP.  So, much of what I have said in this particular thread is also based on that understanding, extensive study and application by myself and observations of students in my meditation classes over the years.  In that respect then, I was a fairly advanced meditator when starting Holosync.  I don't push any particular religious doctrine or required format in meditation (as you suggested Buddhism wouldn't agree with certain ideas that Bill promotes), but rather allow for exploration of what suits the meditator best for what they want to accomplish in meditating.

I have no way of  knowing how much of this is true, however my own 30 plus years of research says that you can’t back up what you’ve said with either modern  research or with traditional teaching on meditation. I’m not sure how anyone who has extensively studied brainwaves in relation to meditation can be unaware of  the vast array of research that clearly negates the claim that Holosync make you instantly meditate like a Zen Monk. Also you do clearly push your own

I never suggest Buddhism would disagree with certain ideas the Bill promotes. I never said anything about the ideas that Bill promotes (though since promotion Genpo Roshi he has been promoting a lot of Buddhist ideas.) or whether or not Buddhism agrees with them. Unless, you consider instant meditation like a Zen Monk an idea, because, at least in relation to holosync, that is all it is.

Gemstar said

I am willing to trust that this is enough for me to be understanding enough about the subject to discuss it in layman's terms, without blustering out into high-faluting (and at times absolutely boring) technical jargon. 

Speaking in laymens terms is fine when it doesn’t over simplify to the point of creating untruth. It is a fact that the holosync program doesn’t make you meditate more deeply then a Zen Monk and only an erroneous oversimplification of the relationship between brainwaves and meditation would allow one to draw such a conclusion. Also you seem quite willing to use technical jargon in your own post, you just use it in a way the leads me to suspect that you don’t really understand it yourself and I explained why I feel that in my previous post.  It seem you want to negate my own use of it  (by calling in “blustering out with …” )because it calls into question the accuracy of yours.

Gemstar said

My observations of how my own students progressed in their meditation practices would, I think, give me a fairly sound basis for what I said regarding the difference in “ordinary” (not necessarily Buddhist) meditation as run against the same amount of time using Holosync, and since several of my students also use Holosync now, I also have those observations (in where their normal meditations have progressed) to further support my words here. 

If you had said in your original posts “I observed that my students progress faster with the meditation practice I teach when they use the use of holosync the when they don’t”, I would not have argued the point. The point was you made a blanket statement about “plain” meditation as if all meditation is the same and to me meditation is to big an umbrella term to make a blanket statement. I said you needed to specify what you where talking about.

I have no way of equating what Ken Wilber would call a “stage” with what I do, as I do not follow the Integral practices or whatever definitions you are assuming I should know and follow.. 

I didn’t say you should follow anything and I didn’t even assume you had knowledge about developmental stages, though Bill Harris did talk about them in several posts within the last 4 months so I thought you might be familiar. It wasn’t necessary for you (or others reading this thread to familiar with the details. The study actually made use of several different model of stage development and they are simply way of measuring personal growth in a relatively ‘objective’ fashion . All that was relevant is research has shown that it doesn’t take “most people” years to get results. I guess since you made the statement it takes most people years to get results, I have to now assume you where talking about your students with the kind of meditation you teach. However extensive research has shown that it is not the case for all types of meditation under the guidance of all teachers. I can’t say if it the methods you teach, your methods of teaching or the students you have that cause them to take years to see results, when this is not universally true of meditation.

Gemstar

From my understanding of the intent of Bill when creating Holosync, I don't think he intended that it would necessarily be based on Buddhist or Integralist ideology to the exclusion of any other ideology out there.  Many Holosync users are Christian, and would probably strongly resent your apparent assertions that only Buddhist and/or Integral meditation would be proper.  Although I don't know for certain, I would suspect the whole spectrum of religious thought, or none at all, would be represented by Holosync users, on a world-wide basis.

Wow that paragraph is so full of distortion of what I said I am not sure where to begin. First I said nothing about integral meditation. I spoke of integral business practices.  I bought it up because Bill has made quite a show of being aligned with the Integral Institute, integral thinking and integral values, yet blatantly lying in his marketing is not in alignment with those values. I also made no assertion or even implied that only Buddhist meditation would be proper. I said a state that could arise from excessive Delta waves with out sufficient amplitudes of  other  bandwidths, is considered a fault of meditation by Buddhist who happen to have proven themselves effective experts in the field . I am sure there are other traditions of meditation that would also consider it a fault but I have more experience with Buddhist teachings on the subject so I used it. The point of the context I said it in, was that delta alone does not equal “deeper” meditation. Also since Bill has been relying on Buddhist ideas in many of his recent post (even comparing his own development to various stages of enlightenment according to the Zen tradition) and since he makes the comparison to a Zen Monk it is perfectly fair to evaluate Holosync in relation to Buddhist concept. Since I also spoke of a vast number of authentic meditation traditions as well as sited Maxwell Cades research of similarity in Brainwave patterns in masters of different mediation traditions I am not sure how you managed to twist my statements into “Only Buddhist  Meditation(or Integral Mediation which I never even mentioned) is valid”

Gemstar said

Most of your protestations would better be served by venting to Bill Harris himself.  I find it amusing that you rant and rave about Bill's “hyped” marketing, but didn't hesitate to spam this group with a hyper-link and a rather large paragraph on your stuff.

First of all I have written Bill and asked him to please stop with the instant meditation hype and verify his claims about lowering the carrier frequency. Also who are you to say who will be served. by my protestation. The thread was about skepticism of holosync. You where of the opinion of that the skepticism wasn’t well founded. I agreed that the original article didn’t convey the truth about binaurals but I also found your statements inaccurate and I feel others do have legitimate reason to be skeptical of Holosync separate from whether or not Binaural are effective. I wasn’t trying to change your mind, you are clearly a believer, but I wrote for the benefit of other (such as my new friend Haelen) who might want more verifiable facts with which to make their decision. So I chimed inon this thread with reasons why people should be skeptical. I didn’t chime in on a thread of contented users.  It would have been spam if my post made no contribution to the thread. I linked to my blog because I will be exploring this point (not just holosync but all instant meditation hype) in great detail because I do beleve Brainwave entrain has great potential and I think the hype is hurting the field. Remember I said I found the thread when Google alerted me to the post. The reason I have Google alert me to posts on Brainwave entrainment is that I follow the field closely and have for along time. I mentioned that I would be monetizing the blog (though I haven’t yet) so those that would be offended by that wouldn’t go there. I didn’t just join holoysycn pod  and say hey you know if your interested in all this stuff come to my blog.  I had something relevant to say  I also don’t’ rant and rave about the hype. I clearly and systematically explain with boring but accurate technical jargon why it is hype. Also it was only a average sized paragraph and only half of it was aobu tmy blog. Further  more If my reason for posting was to spam I would have waited until my blog had stuff on it and was monetized. Linking to a blog that is relevant to the discussion even if it is mine doesn’t make it spam. Did you accuse thePixillator who reposted Bill Harris’s pdf on her site  of spamming because she linked to her site (which is monetized)? Or is mine spam just because I disagree with you and call into question the expertise you want to be seen as having?

Gemstar sadi

As I stated in my earlier post - MY decision to use Holosync was based on some reasonable research, and recommendation of a trusted source.  Certain aspects of my own “psychic” life have found extensive improvements in relation to the deepness of the meditations I've experienced with Holosync, as well as so many other beneficial things on all aspects of my being, that if I sound like a version of Centerpointes so-called “hype”, well, maybe there IS something to it, after all!  I have strong doubts that, were it not for Holosync, that I'd even be here to write these words.  For that blessing, I'm very grateful that there was enough so-called “hype” to move me toward exploring it further.

Actually you said you did no base your decision of research “My own decision to start listening almost four years ago was based on recommendation, not research.”  I am glad you have received benefits from Holosync, and I don’t doubt that you did. However neither you nor I can verify if that it came from the lowering the carrier frequency or from any number of other factors or combination of factors including the delta entrainment and faith in the process generated by the experiences brought on by the delta entrainment. If it is not the lowering  carrier waves then there is no need for the successive levels. You stated that it is as though it was verifiable fact but offer no verification and act if asking for it is some form of dirty trick.  

 May be Bill had an intuition that lowering the carrier frequency would create the effect he claims but he has done no research and none has been ever presented that even actually suggests it. There has also never been any research to refute it so may be his intuition is accurate. However I think people should choose to try, or not  knowing that there is no research that supports its unique claim (the lowering the carrier frequency There is research on the benefits of entrainment and delta entrainment so if the support Holosync offers is worth the inflated expense then go right a head and get prologue and use their support but there is no need to go onto later levels.

 If Holosync is so clearly beneficial then it shouldn’t need the hype.

Be Well

Tamo

Re: Skeptical...

This thread is now unlocked again.

Tamo has been removed from the pod.

Pelle (pod cultivator)

Re: Skeptical...

Why?
claire02

Re: Skeptical...

Tamo's posts were combative, but I was not entirely comfortable with Genstar's posts on this thread either. I don't know what went on behind the scenes that lead to Tamo's removal, but to be honest without knowing more it is hard for me to post further as I don't know if it is ok to be skeptical in this pod.

For the record I am positive about the product, but I have problems with other aspects of the company and if it is not acceptable to discuss these and this is just a Rah Rah board for holosync, then there is no point in my remaining a member.

Regards,

Davybuoy

Re: Skeptical...

First I'll answer Claires question of “Why?” (re Tamo being removed):

He refused to follow proper pod etiquette after been warned (by PM from Pelle), and continued to take things from the impersonal to the personal in his efforts to prop up his own position.  He wasn't interested in Holosync, but rather in using this forum to make traction for his own “research blog” which he made certain we were aware of, by posting a link to his stuff (commonly noted as “spamming”, especially in a one-off posting situation).

Next to Davybuoy's post :

There is nothing wrong with being skeptical about Holosync and expressing that on this forum.  But you can also expect that there are several individuals here who, from years of using it and the experiences we've had, will step up to the plate to defend it's value in our own lives whenever someone (especially someone who is very new to the product) posts something they came across supporting the opposite view, because we know more experientially than most/all of the so-called anti-binaural, anti-Holosync (especially) research out there does.  You might also consider that Holosync does bring up “resistance” to change in your lives, and this often manifests as skepticism.  It's what you do with the skepticism thereafter that's important - for yourself and for others.

The same goes for Centerpointe Research Institute - many of us, in following suggestions of other programs and contacts from the marketing that is sent out, have found great benefit in that marketing.  Those that don't like it have every opportunity to “opt out”, on the emails or on what is sent by mail.  This is't the place to bash a company because you see it's marketing as “hype”.  No one is twisting your arm to buy into it, or to opt out of it, if you were initially attracted to Holosync by it.  The same with any perceived lack of research.  As I indicated to Tamo - his efforts would be better served by taking up his issues of marketing hype and so-called lack of research with Bill Harris and/or CRI.  Whether or not Bill takes him seriously isn't the problem of this pod, either.  Now, were he using the product and Centerpointe ignored him, then he might have reason to complain, or just stop using the product.

So my initial post back to Haelen pointed out what I saw as the flaws in the research of this one individual.  Haelen didn't challenge that - and I suspect it was Tamo (trolling opportunistically? - as he admitted that it was a Google alert that brought the post to his attention) who jumped at the chance to do so.  Had he came in and introduced himself, and stated his case without doing so in such a confrontational manner, then he might have been taken more seriously. 

I've been on a few different Holosync boards, and I've seen how such activities (as carried out by Tamo) can spoil a group for a long time.  Sometimes it has turned off people who otherwise were doing OK with Holosync, and perhaps spoiled their opportunity to use Holosync to improve their lives.  Even if I didn't like Holosync so much, personal responsibility would dictate to me that I don't turn them off of it, before they've even had the opportunity to make a clear decision on their own evaluation of what it is or isn't doing for them.  So it's not so much a case of the pod needing or even wanting to be a “Rah! Rah!” place for cheering on Holosync, but rather that the discussion doesn't devolve into personal attacks on anyone just because they don't meet up with an individual's expectations of how they should respond, and/or that such actions don't spoil the potentials for anyone else.

My response to Tamo was from my responsibility as a Moderator of the pod, my personal experience as a meditator, meditation teacher, coupled with my own personal views of what I had observed in research, whether from Centerpointe or other “sources”, which would include my own channeling source, but also would include a fair amount of reading I have done on my own.  That I didn't feel it necessary to divulge every bit of that apparently didn't satisfy Tamo.  As I suspected his purpose was to build a whole argument here, to be later (edited to suit his purposes) put into his blog, why would I feel it necessary to indulge his demands?

That's why, after his second post, rather than have anyone else get embroiled in the issue, I locked the thread until Pelle would have an opportunity to determine what needed to be done.  At no time did I act beyond my capacity as Moderator, or do anything that would be unacceptable as a member or Moderator of this pod.  The guidelines that Pelle has set up for this pod are clear, and I feel pretty fair and open enough to handle both skepticism and being supportive of Holosync and those using it.

Gem

Re: Skeptical...

This contribution is gratefully received and much appreciated,
In Australia, if a supliment claims of itself to be a miricle cure, offering health giving or nutritional benifit or some such it attracts special scrutiny as charlatans and sooth sayers should reasonably be. I expect, should any advantage come from this enterprise, it would amount to not more than a placebo effect. What first alerted me to some thing being amiss here was the overt greed being exercised by one appealing to those in search of wholistic compassionate ideals not associated with what they are exercising.Thank You.

Re: Skeptical...

Hi everyone,

First of all, let me say unambiguously: it is more than ok to be skeptical of Holosync in this pod. We've had skeptical threads in the past, we're having one right here, and that is as it should be.

One of the weaknesses of Holosync is indeed that there still hasn't been any large scale formal research around it. There's been a lot of informal validation around its results, with 700 000 (!) buyers so far, but proper research would still be nice to get.

Tamo was removed not because he was skeptical, if that was the policy of this pod then I would have to remove myself and lots of other people from this pod :) But in fact, no one has ever been removed before, this was the very first time.

The reason Tamo was removed, was that he specifically joined this pod as an anti-Holosync person, and he explicitly stated that he would not participate in the pod beyond this thread about skepticism. He also refused to introduce himself, even though he was asked to more than once. This means that he refused to play by the basic guidelines we use to keep this pod a civil place.

I have a lot of experience moderating and running forums, and in my experience entering a forum the way Tamo did means trouble 100% of the time. Sure, I could have waited for him to cause more trouble, but when you've seen the same scenario play out more times than you care to remember, then I prefer taking action.

Also, PMs have been exchanged behind the scene, so it's not only based on what went on in this thread. Since pod trouble is usually handled through PMs as much as possible, it is impossible for pod members to fully know how the moderators are doing our job. So at a fundamental level it's about trusting the moderators to do a good enough job, that is the implicit agreement when you are part of the pod.

I'm always open to criticism and feedback, so please feel free to give me that.

And let me also say that if Tamo had simply said that he authentically wanted to be part in this pod (i.e. introduce himself, try to see both positive and negative perspectives on Holosync, etc), then he'd still be a member, regardless of the unskilful way he entered the pod.

Thanks for the questions everyone,

Warmly
Pelle

Re: Skeptical...

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Reading your posts has made me even more curious to see for myself what the results will be.

Haelan

Re: Skeptical...

I'm pretty skeptical, too.  Enjoyed your thorough analysis article, a lot.  Not sure why or how it works longterm - not even sure it works for everyone, either.  But I noticed the change JUST using the demo CD for less than 5 nights.  Now I am going into the second year and ordered the set that you can put your subliminals on.  There is a difference.  I am more calm and more sure.  Definitely more aware.  Try the demo cd - you can get enough of a sample on the holosync demo - if you notice changes to yourself in the following few days - great - order - or try to get a used copy on ebay.  When you finish one level and move on - some people sell their previous level online.  Anyway, good luck.  -SoCal

Re: Skeptical...

Hello All!

I've been looking for a group on Holoysnc to discuss many thoughts I have had about the product and service I've received.

I have been using the system daily for over a year now.  I am into the second set of CD's where subliminal messaes are recorded.  In fact, I have been at the end of this series for quite some time and have been hesitant to order the next set. 

I have called the coaching hotline a couple of times with my questions and was treated very poorly when I specfically asked for scientific data, was this product, in fact, endorsed by Ken Wilber, what I was experiencing, etc.  I had invested quite a bit of money and certainly more importantly, my time, with this product and I just wanted to disucss some things, as they say they are available for.

It struck me odd that this person on the phone was irritated, annoyed by my questions and he had been using this product for 4 years.  He didn't seem to be very close to enligtened to me.  Actually, the energy he emitted was extreme anger.  This did not help with my possible skepticism.  It was my desire to continue using the product and I simply had some questions.  I received nothing.  So, as the saying goes, “The proof is in the pudding” and this guy was the pudding who wasn't doing a good job in “proving”!

I also have sat in on a significant number of audio podcasts with Bill Harris and he struck me as angry also, which is totally disconcerting.  He tries to hide it; however, it comes through very clearly for me.

Anyway, I still want to use this product - I haven't yet stopped.  It's just that I'm ready for the next series and it is a huge investment and I want to talk with those who have been using it for quite a while and get some feedback.  I hope to do that in this forum.  So, I plan on looking through some of the other posts.  I landed here first because of my “skepticism.”

I have been searching other places on the web looking for some answers.  I even emailed Depak Chopra on another site and he wrote back and said he was not at all familiar with this product.

I have never really fetl anything pos/neg from using this.  I had been meditating regularly before using it and when I saw the link to the integral institute, I signed up because they hold a level of confidence for me.  Again, I have used it daily for over a year.

So, if someone would like to direct me to a specific post on this forum to begin my quest for some answers, that would really be appreciated!

Namaste,

Sheila

Re: Skeptical...

First off, Welcome….

As Pelle said above - it's OK to be skeptical here.

Regarding your Centerpointe experience, did you only call once, or did you perhaps try a different operator at a different time?  I know that as a business model, most companies want their front-line people to reflect the business, but everyone has the occasional crappy day. It's highly likely, if he is in his 4th year, he's hit at least the early Purification series, and those levels do tend to push O/R a whole lot.   So maybe you got your “proof” and didn't recognize it.  “Enlightment?”  I believe Bill addressed the idea that “enlightment” isn't necessarily the goal of using Holosync anyways, and for some people, it does take longer use before they reach a stage of calmness, clarity and being the “Witness”.  That's why the program is spread over approximately 13 years.

Besides, no one on the support lines has any kind of scientific data to provide - and because they aren't scientists, they really wouldn't be in a position to discuss it, even if they did have access to it.  Also, even if there is scientific data, do you know of many companies that are all that willing to share their data, on a simple phone call with a customer?  So it must be pretty frustrating to have to field calls from people wanting scientific “proof” when you cannot give it to them. 

Walk a mile or two in their moccasins before passing too harsh a judgement would be my advice.  If what you've found online at the CRI web-site isn't enough scientific information for you, and doing your own research on binaural beats (and actually there is quite a bit online) hasn't satisfied your need to know, then probably no amount of calls to the support line is going to satisfy that need, either.

As for Bill's podcasts, I've also been on many, and haven't had the same experience at all.  So I'm thinking that perhaps when you indicate that AL1 hasn't affected you one way or the other, you might want to consider that stuff you may pick up from others is a reflection of what may be happening, interiorly, to you, without you even being aware of it.  Yes, Bill does have a temper, and he will occasionally explode (seen him do that on a different forum) but it's usually around the subject of someone ripping him off by reselling or uTorrent'ing product. :)

Specifically, as in one particular post on this group, you're probably not going to find your answer(s).  There is a great deal of good information here, though, and I think enough balance on either side of the scale, to help you to make up your mind.  Some people will read and say “Yes, this is what I'm looking for” and other's will say “No, not my cuppa!”  Only you can decide if you want to look at what is there, and then if that is enough information to make your decision.  That is part of the process of developing discernment (which comes quite a bit before “enlightenment”).

Be Well!

Gem

Re: Skeptical...

I phoned the hotline a number of times, as I stated.  Each time I spoke with a man who would not provide his name.  They claim the hotline is there to answer questions, of which I had many, not just the science issues which was less significant to the conversation.  This was not an issue of someone having a bad day.  It happened repeately.

I am not being harsh nor judgemental.  I simply stated my experience.  I also stated I planned on continuing for the time being.  I do not appreciate being “told” to walk in someone's shoes. I do not judge people's hearts.  I do evaluate products I choose to use which is why I have been searching for a disucssion in this area.

It is my impression that when one voices any concern or their own experiences, they are chastised here.

I plan on reading some of the other discussions and will not post here again.

Sheila

Re: Skeptical...

Hi Sheila,

I'm not crazy about what I've seen of the “public face” of Centerpointe, either, but I've never called the hotline or listened in on podcasts, so my exposure to the company is limited to their mailers and my purchases. I'm mostly thinking of the in-your-face marketing that borders on spam in terms of how much it can turn me off, but…

Judging from your reaction to Gemstar here, it seems to me that the main common denominator in all your calls to the hotline is you (unless you happened to talk to the same guy each time), so you may want to sit with your feelings towards the hotline people and Bill and see if there isn't at least a certain amount of projection going on there, or possibly even a certain amount of your own antagonism or defensiveness that is contributing to these unpleasant phone calls.

It also seems unrealistic to me to expect a phone operator to be “enlightened” after only 4 years of using Holosync, and I'm not sure why you'd expect that, since you seem to be into integral, too. The product may help you to meditate like a Zen monk “at the push of a button” in terms of your brainwaves (solely in the upper-right quadrant in Integral-speak, i.e. individual exterior aspects), but it's not going to actually turn you into one overnight, maybe not even at the end of the full program, and certainly not in all four quadrants all on its own.

And then there's lines of development to consider, too. One might sit alone on a mountaintop for decades and achieve second or third tier (in Integral-speak, i.e. a certain form of “enlightenment” in very clumsy, approximate, layman's terms) in certain lines, but still be at “mythic membership” (“Amber”) in terms of interpersonal relationships, for example.

Not to mention the distinction between states and stages, and on and on….

Anyway, as Gemstar has said (I think), there is some scientific evidence posted on the Centerpointe web site. Have you seen this article, for example?

Scientific Research Validates Holosync Benefits

The article is followed by an extensive bibliography, so I'm not sure what other scientific evidence you're looking for. Is there something specific you were hoping to find?

As for Wilber, I'm not sure you'll find an “official” endorsement anywhere, but there are audio and video podcasts on Integral Naked and Integral Life where he talks about Holosync (and other such technologies) in positive terms. But more or less in the same way that he might talk positively about pretty much any of the thousands of other practices a person can do.

Well, I do hope you find what you're looking for and wish you all the best in your practice.

Metta,
~G

Re: Skeptical...

Grey: I just wanted to pop in and thank you for this. It encapsulates my feelings exactly. :)

Re: Skeptical...

This was the most informative thread out there for someone who is really interested in finding actual research supporting many of Holosync’s claims…and yet it was derailed by removing the most detailed and legitimate source present.  I really enjoyed the discussion between Gemstar and Tamo; it was well thought out, focused on the purpose of the post and extremely informative.
 
 
 
Then Tamo is removed because he didn’t introduce himself and didn’t say he had plans to post in other threads?  What?  You prefer removing credible posters, because they are enhancing *only* one thread?  I wasn’t aware there was a minimum posting level in this pod.  From what I read of Tamo he was far from “anit-holosync” but rather he took issue with the claims that were clearly unsupportable while acknowledging the claims that were indeed verifyable as fact.
 
 
 
I’m certainly unaware of the content of said “PMs” but there was really nothing Tamos did that seemed out of line other than have a different opinion than a forum moderator.

Re: Skeptical...

Hi Robert,
This is what I wrote back in August:
Also, PMs have been exchanged behind the scene, so it’s not only based on what went on in this thread. Since pod trouble is usually handled through PMs as much as possible, it is impossible for pod members to fully know how the moderators are doing our job. So at a fundamental level it’s about trusting the moderators to do a good enough job, that is the implicit agreement when you are part of the pod.

In other words, when joining a pod you need to ask yourself: Do I trust the moderators? Is this a safe space? Are people allowed to question things with an open mind?
After answering those questions you then choose whether you want to be part of the pod.
I believe Tamo was a troll, that’s why he was removed. So far he is the *only* person ever to be removed. Loads of people have been critical of Holosync, the price of Holosync or the marketing of Holosync - but none of those persons have been removed. So being critical is not a criterion for being removed.
Best,
Pelle

Re: Skeptical...

What an intriguing thread.

I wonder if being skeptical about the program effects your experience of it, almost as a way of holding yourself back..?

I ordered through Earth Star which is the Australian distributor of Holosync - Awakening Prologue. I have been emailing them as my support and have been quite dissapointed. I first emailed them after my first few weeks to let them know how good I was feeling and letting them know of all the positive changes I had seen that I hadn’t been expecting. I suppose because of the price of the program that I expected the support to be excellent, my reply to that email was “Thanks for letting us know” I suppose subcontiously I had expected more, things like “That’s great to hear.. etc.” But it’s just another reminder to me that my expectations can let me down and I should just let things be as they are and just like the book and support papers say ‘let anything that happens be okay’. I quickly got over that as I just saw it as me being silly but what has dissapointed me is that I sent them an email a week ago with questions. They say you should receive a reply within 48hrs and I still haven’t. I was having an upheaval with the free bonus CD, the one that they don’t tell you what it is. I was very fidgety during it so I emailed them but didn’t get a reply. I think from now on I will just email centerpointe. Thankfully after reading more into the book it answered my questions anyway lol.

The price for me was huge and as someone (like a lot of people in this society) with a dysfunctional relationship with money it took me a long time to order it. I was then greatly dissapointed to find out that each level is over $300AU but then I realised just as Gemstar mentioned if I start putting money away for it then it is easy to pay for.

Re: Skeptical...

Belinda:
I should hope that your skepticism has no effect on your results! We’re not talking about the placebo effect here.

I’m sorry to hear that your customer support through a third party vendor was substandard. I believe all customer support should be through Centerpointe. I’ve called them over the years and I’m always very happy with the counseling I get, even if there is no free 800 number for us in the States.

You’re right: the book you get with the program answers all your questions. You mean “Thresholds of the Mind” right? I have it at easy reach!

Don’t worry, the price for me is huge as well. In fact, I cannot order a new level as often as I’d like because of the way I have difficulties managing money. I’m hoping to be able to order my newest level soon, though! It’s always worth the money you spend, when you consider that your threshold for stress is “magically” raised, and you can suddenly conquer areas of your life you never hoped to face before.

Nice to meet you! Blessings, Jessica

Re: Skeptical...

Hi Jessica, oh don’t worry I believe in the program without skepticism. I have great respect for Bill Harris and love his blog :)

Yes i do mean Thresholds of the Mind.

Yea I tend to think the price is worth it because the consecutive programs last quite a while and are life changing! I went for the payment plan which makes it easy.

Re: Skeptical...

I posted this thread on the frequency response of audio equipment and I am adding it to the mix in this thread

http://groups.gaia.com/holosync/conversations/view/472461

Daniel