Gaia: Holosync - Holosync - Skeptical...

Re: Skeptical...

http://drs1958.gaia.com — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 13:38:40 GMT

I posted this thread on the frequency response of audio equipment and I am adding it to the mix in this thread

http://groups.gaia.com/holosync/conversations/view/472461

Daniel

Re: Skeptical...

http://siona.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:26:16 GMT

Grey: I just wanted to pop in and thank you for this. It encapsulates my feelings exactly. :)

Re: Skeptical...

http://belinda87.gaia.com — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:00:58 GMT

Hi Jessica, oh don't worry I believe in the program without skepticism. I have great respect for Bill Harris and love his blog :)

Yes i do mean Thresholds of the Mind.

Yea I tend to think the price is worth it because the consecutive programs last quite a while and are life changing! I went for the payment plan which makes it easy.

Re: Skeptical...

http://thepixellator.gaia.com — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:57:19 GMT

Belinda:
I should hope that your skepticism has no effect on your results! We're not talking about the placebo effect here.

I'm sorry to hear that your customer support through a third party vendor was substandard. I believe all customer support should be through Centerpointe. I've called them over the years and I'm always very happy with the counseling I get, even if there is no free 800 number for us in the States.

You're right: the book you get with the program answers all your questions. You mean "Thresholds of the Mind" right? I have it at easy reach!

Don't worry, the price for me is huge as well. In fact, I cannot order a new level as often as I'd like because of the way I have difficulties managing money. I'm hoping to be able to order my newest level soon, though! It's always worth the money you spend, when you consider that your threshold for stress is "magically" raised, and you can suddenly conquer areas of your life you never hoped to face before.

Nice to meet you! Blessings, Jessica

Re: Skeptical...

http://belinda87.gaia.com — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:27:49 GMT

What an intriguing thread.

I wonder if being skeptical about the program effects your experience of it, almost as a way of holding yourself back..?

I ordered through Earth Star which is the Australian distributor of Holosync - Awakening Prologue. I have been emailing them as my support and have been quite dissapointed. I first emailed them after my first few weeks to let them know how good I was feeling and letting them know of all the positive changes I had seen that I hadn't been expecting. I suppose because of the price of the program that I expected the support to be excellent, my reply to that email was "Thanks for letting us know" I suppose subcontiously I had expected more, things like "That's great to hear.. etc." But it's just another reminder to me that my expectations can let me down and I should just let things be as they are and just like the book and support papers say 'let anything that happens be okay'. I quickly got over that as I just saw it as me being silly but what has dissapointed me is that I sent them an email a week ago with questions. They say you should receive a reply within 48hrs and I still haven't. I was having an upheaval with the free bonus CD, the one that they don't tell you what it is. I was very fidgety during it so I emailed them but didn't get a reply. I think from now on I will just email centerpointe. Thankfully after reading more into the book it answered my questions anyway lol.

The price for me was huge and as someone (like a lot of people in this society) with a dysfunctional relationship with money it took me a long time to order it. I was then greatly dissapointed to find out that each level is over $300AU but then I realised just as Gemstar mentioned if I start putting money away for it then it is easy to pay for.

Re: Skeptical...

http://pelle.gaia.com — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:38:16 GMT

Hi Robert,
This is what I wrote back in August:
Also, PMs have been exchanged behind the scene, so it's not only based on what went on in this thread. Since pod trouble is usually handled through PMs as much as possible, it is impossible for pod members to fully know how the moderators are doing our job. So at a fundamental level it's about trusting the moderators to do a good enough job, that is the implicit agreement when you are part of the pod.

In other words, when joining a pod you need to ask yourself: Do I trust the moderators? Is this a safe space? Are people allowed to question things with an open mind?
After answering those questions you then choose whether you want to be part of the pod.
I believe Tamo was a troll, that's why he was removed. So far he is the *only* person ever to be removed. Loads of people have been critical of Holosync, the price of Holosync or the marketing of Holosync - but none of those persons have been removed. So being critical is not a criterion for being removed.
Best,
Pelle

Re: Skeptical...

http://clientsi.gaia.com — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:23:34 GMT

This was the most informative thread out there for someone who is really interested in finding actual research supporting many of Holosync's claims...and yet it was derailed by removing the most detailed and legitimate source present. I really enjoyed the discussion between Gemstar and Tamo; it was well thought out, focused on the purpose of the post and extremely informative.

Then Tamo is removed because he didn't introduce himself and didn't say he had plans to post in other threads? What? You prefer removing credible posters, because they are enhancing *only* one thread? I wasn't aware there was a minimum posting level in this pod. From what I read of Tamo he was far from "anit-holosync" but rather he took issue with the claims that were clearly unsupportable while acknowledging the claims that were indeed verifyable as fact.

I'm certainly unaware of the content of said "PMs" but there was really nothing Tamos did that seemed out of line other than have a different opinion than a forum moderator.

Re: Skeptical...

http://drane.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 08:33:01 GMT

Hi Sheila,

I'm not crazy about what I've seen of the "public face" of Centerpointe, either, but I've never called the hotline or listened in on podcasts, so my exposure to the company is limited to their mailers and my purchases. I'm mostly thinking of the in-your-face marketing that borders on spam in terms of how much it can turn me off, but...

Judging from your reaction to Gemstar here, it seems to me that the main common denominator in all your calls to the hotline is you (unless you happened to talk to the same guy each time), so you may want to sit with your feelings towards the hotline people and Bill and see if there isn't at least a certain amount of projection going on there, or possibly even a certain amount of your own antagonism or defensiveness that is contributing to these unpleasant phone calls.

It also seems unrealistic to me to expect a phone operator to be "enlightened" after only 4 years of using Holosync, and I'm not sure why you'd expect that, since you seem to be into integral, too. The product may help you to meditate like a Zen monk "at the push of a button" in terms of your brainwaves (solely in the upper-right quadrant in Integral-speak, i.e. individual exterior aspects), but it's not going to actually turn you into one overnight, maybe not even at the end of the full program, and certainly not in all four quadrants all on its own.

And then there's lines of development to consider, too. One might sit alone on a mountaintop for decades and achieve second or third tier (in Integral-speak, i.e. a certain form of "enlightenment" in very clumsy, approximate, layman's terms) in certain lines, but still be at "mythic membership" ("Amber") in terms of interpersonal relationships, for example.

Not to mention the distinction between states and stages, and on and on....

Anyway, as Gemstar has said (I think), there is some scientific evidence posted on the Centerpointe web site. Have you seen this article, for example?

Scientific Research Validates Holosync Benefits

The article is followed by an extensive bibliography, so I'm not sure what other scientific evidence you're looking for. Is there something specific you were hoping to find?

As for Wilber, I'm not sure you'll find an "official" endorsement anywhere, but there are audio and video podcasts on Integral Naked and Integral Life where he talks about Holosync (and other such technologies) in positive terms. But more or less in the same way that he might talk positively about pretty much any of the thousands of other practices a person can do.

Well, I do hope you find what you're looking for and wish you all the best in your practice.

Metta,
~G

Re: Skeptical...

http://smokiesmik.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:15:54 GMT

I phoned the hotline a number of times, as I stated. Each time I spoke with a man who would not provide his name. They claim the hotline is there to answer questions, of which I had many, not just the science issues which was less significant to the conversation. This was not an issue of someone having a bad day. It happened repeately.

I am not being harsh nor judgemental. I simply stated my experience. I also stated I planned on continuing for the time being. I do not appreciate being "told" to walk in someone's shoes. I do not judge people's hearts. I do evaluate products I choose to use which is why I have been searching for a disucssion in this area.

It is my impression that when one voices any concern or their own experiences, they are chastised here.

I plan on reading some of the other discussions and will not post here again.

Sheila

Re: Skeptical...

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 03:02:38 GMT

First off, Welcome....

As Pelle said above - it's OK to be skeptical here.

Regarding your Centerpointe experience, did you only call once, or did you perhaps try a different operator at a different time? I know that as a business model, most companies want their front-line people to reflect the business, but everyone has the occasional crappy day. It's highly likely, if he is in his 4th year, he's hit at least the early Purification series, and those levels do tend to push O/R a whole lot. So maybe you got your "proof" and didn't recognize it. "Enlightment?" I believe Bill addressed the idea that "enlightment" isn't necessarily the goal of using Holosync anyways, and for some people, it does take longer use before they reach a stage of calmness, clarity and being the "Witness". That's why the program is spread over approximately 13 years.

Besides, no one on the support lines has any kind of scientific data to provide - and because they aren't scientists, they really wouldn't be in a position to discuss it, even if they did have access to it. Also, even if there is scientific data, do you know of many companies that are all that willing to share their data, on a simple phone call with a customer? So it must be pretty frustrating to have to field calls from people wanting scientific "proof" when you cannot give it to them.

Walk a mile or two in their moccasins before passing too harsh a judgement would be my advice. If what you've found online at the CRI web-site isn't enough scientific information for you, and doing your own research on binaural beats (and actually there is quite a bit online) hasn't satisfied your need to know, then probably no amount of calls to the support line is going to satisfy that need, either.

As for Bill's podcasts, I've also been on many, and haven't had the same experience at all. So I'm thinking that perhaps when you indicate that AL1 hasn't affected you one way or the other, you might want to consider that stuff you may pick up from others is a reflection of what may be happening, interiorly, to you, without you even being aware of it. Yes, Bill does have a temper, and he will occasionally explode (seen him do that on a different forum) but it's usually around the subject of someone ripping him off by reselling or uTorrent'ing product. :)

Specifically, as in one particular post on this group, you're probably not going to find your answer(s). There is a great deal of good information here, though, and I think enough balance on either side of the scale, to help you to make up your mind. Some people will read and say "Yes, this is what I'm looking for" and other's will say "No, not my cuppa!" Only you can decide if you want to look at what is there, and then if that is enough information to make your decision. That is part of the process of developing discernment (which comes quite a bit before "enlightenment").

Be Well!

Gem

Re: Skeptical...

http://smokiesmik.gaia.com — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:42:33 GMT

Hello All!

I've been looking for a group on Holoysnc to discuss many thoughts I have had about the product and service I've received.

I have been using the system daily for over a year now. I am into the second set of CD's where subliminal messaes are recorded. In fact, I have been at the end of this series for quite some time and have been hesitant to order the next set.

I have called the coaching hotline a couple of times with my questions and was treated very poorly when I specfically asked for scientific data, was this product, in fact, endorsed by Ken Wilber, what I was experiencing, etc. I had invested quite a bit of money and certainly more importantly, my time, with this product and I just wanted to disucss some things, as they say they are available for.

It struck me odd that this person on the phone was irritated, annoyed by my questions and he had been using this product for 4 years. He didn't seem to be very close to enligtened to me. Actually, the energy he emitted was extreme anger. This did not help with my possible skepticism. It was my desire to continue using the product and I simply had some questions. I received nothing. So, as the saying goes, "The proof is in the pudding" and this guy was the pudding who wasn't doing a good job in "proving"!

I also have sat in on a significant number of audio podcasts with Bill Harris and he struck me as angry also, which is totally disconcerting. He tries to hide it; however, it comes through very clearly for me.

Anyway, I still want to use this product - I haven't yet stopped. It's just that I'm ready for the next series and it is a huge investment and I want to talk with those who have been using it for quite a while and get some feedback. I hope to do that in this forum. So, I plan on looking through some of the other posts. I landed here first because of my "skepticism."

I have been searching other places on the web looking for some answers. I even emailed Depak Chopra on another site and he wrote back and said he was not at all familiar with this product.

I have never really fetl anything pos/neg from using this. I had been meditating regularly before using it and when I saw the link to the integral institute, I signed up because they hold a level of confidence for me. Again, I have used it daily for over a year.

So, if someone would like to direct me to a specific post on this forum to begin my quest for some answers, that would really be appreciated!

Namaste,

Sheila

Re: Skeptical...

http://seanmcneely.gaia.com — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:00:23 GMT

I have read some of these post, and the way I see it, you can do research on a product. Go on any forum and research any book, program, TV, HDTV, DVD Player, ect... Everyone has something to say backed by some research. The fact that Holosync has a 1 year money back guarantee, should be enough. If you actually spend your time trying to research Holosync and reading what people say your year will be up. Just use the product if it works keep it, if it does not return it and get your cash back. If you try to read what everyone writes it will drive you INSANE..... LOL... trust me I did this when I was buying my HDTV, and every product I buy, but I am trying to stop the madness..... I really can drive you nuts when you buy a product then read an article like this, and then you think you were ripped off.... Just use the product and find out for yourself that is what I am going to do, I will post my results here in a few months. Sean

Re: Skeptical...

http://holosync1.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:14:32 GMT

I'm pretty skeptical, too. Enjoyed your thorough analysis article, a lot. Not sure why or how it works longterm - not even sure it works for everyone, either. But I noticed the change JUST using the demo CD for less than 5 nights. Now I am going into the second year and ordered the set that you can put your subliminals on. There is a difference. I am more calm and more sure. Definitely more aware. Try the demo cd - you can get enough of a sample on the holosync demo - if you notice changes to yourself in the following few days - great - order - or try to get a used copy on ebay. When you finish one level and move on - some people sell their previous level online. Anyway, good luck. -SoCal

Re: Skeptical...

http://medeadbugger.gaia.com — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:18:20 GMT

This contribution is gratefully received and much appreciated,
In Australia, if a supliment claims of itself to be a miricle cure, offering health giving or nutritional benifit or some such it attracts special scrutiny as charlatans and sooth sayers should reasonably be. I expect, should any advantage come from this enterprise, it would amount to not more than a placebo effect. What first alerted me to some thing being amiss here was the overt greed being exercised by one appealing to those in search of wholistic compassionate ideals not associated with what they are exercising.Thank You.

Re: Skeptical...

http://haelan.gaia.com — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 03:56:32 GMT

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Reading your posts has made me even more curious to see for myself what the results will be.

Haelan

Re: Skeptical...

http://pelle.gaia.com — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 22:33:54 GMT

Hi everyone,

First of all, let me say unambiguously: it is more than ok to be skeptical of Holosync in this pod. We've had skeptical threads in the past, we're having one right here, and that is as it should be.

One of the weaknesses of Holosync is indeed that there still hasn't been any large scale formal research around it. There's been a lot of informal validation around its results, with 700 000 (!) buyers so far, but proper research would still be nice to get.

Tamo was removed not because he was skeptical, if that was the policy of this pod then I would have to remove myself and lots of other people from this pod :) But in fact, no one has ever been removed before, this was the very first time.

The reason Tamo was removed, was that he specifically joined this pod as an anti-Holosync person, and he explicitly stated that he would not participate in the pod beyond this thread about skepticism. He also refused to introduce himself, even though he was asked to more than once. This means that he refused to play by the basic guidelines we use to keep this pod a civil place.

I have a lot of experience moderating and running forums, and in my experience entering a forum the way Tamo did means trouble 100% of the time. Sure, I could have waited for him to cause more trouble, but when you've seen the same scenario play out more times than you care to remember, then I prefer taking action.

Also, PMs have been exchanged behind the scene, so it's not only based on what went on in this thread. Since pod trouble is usually handled through PMs as much as possible, it is impossible for pod members to fully know how the moderators are doing our job. So at a fundamental level it's about trusting the moderators to do a good enough job, that is the implicit agreement when you are part of the pod.

I'm always open to criticism and feedback, so please feel free to give me that.

And let me also say that if Tamo had simply said that he authentically wanted to be part in this pod (i.e. introduce himself, try to see both positive and negative perspectives on Holosync, etc), then he'd still be a member, regardless of the unskilful way he entered the pod.

Thanks for the questions everyone,

Warmly
Pelle

Re: Skeptical...

Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:27:23 GMT

First I'll answer Claires question of "Why?" (re Tamo being removed):

He refused to follow proper pod etiquette after been warned (by PM from Pelle), and continued to take things from the impersonal to the personal in his efforts to prop up his own position. He wasn't interested in Holosync, but rather in using this forum to make traction for his own "research blog" which he made certain we were aware of, by posting a link to his stuff (commonly noted as "spamming", especially in a one-off posting situation).

Next to Davybuoy's post :

There is nothing wrong with being skeptical about Holosync and expressing that on this forum. But you can also expect that there are several individuals here who, from years of using it and the experiences we've had, will step up to the plate to defend it's value in our own lives whenever someone (especially someone who is very new to the product) posts something they came across supporting the opposite view, because we know more experientially than most/all of the so-called anti-binaural, anti-Holosync (especially) research out there does. You might also consider that Holosync does bring up "resistance" to change in your lives, and this often manifests as skepticism. It's what you do with the skepticism thereafter that's important - for yourself and for others.

The same goes for Centerpointe Research Institute - many of us, in following suggestions of other programs and contacts from the marketing that is sent out, have found great benefit in that marketing. Those that don't like it have every opportunity to "opt out", on the emails or on what is sent by mail. This is't the place to bash a company because you see it's marketing as "hype". No one is twisting your arm to buy into it, or to opt out of it, if you were initially attracted to Holosync by it. The same with any perceived lack of research. As I indicated to Tamo - his efforts would be better served by taking up his issues of marketing hype and so-called lack of research with Bill Harris and/or CRI. Whether or not Bill takes him seriously isn't the problem of this pod, either. Now, were he using the product and Centerpointe ignored him, then he might have reason to complain, or just stop using the product.

So my initial post back to Haelen pointed out what I saw as the flaws in the research of this one individual. Haelen didn't challenge that - and I suspect it was Tamo (trolling opportunistically? - as he admitted that it was a Google alert that brought the post to his attention) who jumped at the chance to do so. Had he came in and introduced himself, and stated his case without doing so in such a confrontational manner, then he might have been taken more seriously.

I've been on a few different Holosync boards, and I've seen how such activities (as carried out by Tamo) can spoil a group for a long time. Sometimes it has turned off people who otherwise were doing OK with Holosync, and perhaps spoiled their opportunity to use Holosync to improve their lives. Even if I didn't like Holosync so much, personal responsibility would dictate to me that I don't turn them off of it, before they've even had the opportunity to make a clear decision on their own evaluation of what it is or isn't doing for them. So it's not so much a case of the pod needing or even wanting to be a "Rah! Rah!" place for cheering on Holosync, but rather that the discussion doesn't devolve into personal attacks on anyone just because they don't meet up with an individual's expectations of how they should respond, and/or that such actions don't spoil the potentials for anyone else.

My response to Tamo was from my responsibility as a Moderator of the pod, my personal experience as a meditator, meditation teacher, coupled with my own personal views of what I had observed in research, whether from Centerpointe or other "sources", which would include my own channeling source, but also would include a fair amount of reading I have done on my own. That I didn't feel it necessary to divulge every bit of that apparently didn't satisfy Tamo. As I suspected his purpose was to build a whole argument here, to be later (edited to suit his purposes) put into his blog, why would I feel it necessary to indulge his demands?

That's why, after his second post, rather than have anyone else get embroiled in the issue, I locked the thread until Pelle would have an opportunity to determine what needed to be done. At no time did I act beyond my capacity as Moderator, or do anything that would be unacceptable as a member or Moderator of this pod. The guidelines that Pelle has set up for this pod are clear, and I feel pretty fair and open enough to handle both skepticism and being supportive of Holosync and those using it.

Gem

Re: Skeptical...

http://davybuoy.gaia.com — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 14:16:17 GMT

Tamo's posts were combative, but I was not entirely comfortable with Genstar's posts on this thread either. I don't know what went on behind the scenes that lead to Tamo's removal, but to be honest without knowing more it is hard for me to post further as I don't know if it is ok to be skeptical in this pod.

For the record I am positive about the product, but I have problems with other aspects of the company and if it is not acceptable to discuss these and this is just a Rah Rah board for holosync, then there is no point in my remaining a member.

Regards,

Davybuoy

Re: Skeptical...

http://claire02.gaia.com — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:01:06 GMT

Why?
claire02

Re: Skeptical...

http://pelle.gaia.com — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:29:17 GMT

This thread is now unlocked again.

Tamo has been removed from the pod.

Pelle (pod cultivator)