A sad development

Well, this is a fine pass we've come to… now I can either make nice or anyone who doesn't like rough edges gets to put a BAD SEED into my REPUTATION basket, or whatever, and then the Politeness Police make sure I am marginalized. Or I can be all sweetness and lite, even totally vacuous and become influential because I say the right things. Wow, you guys are a piece of work. And you even sell the Trust System (because it is, after all, all about selling, isn't it? You even got a name for it from Marketing I bet.) (I can feel those BAD SEEDS accumulating already!) as a wonderful new development. I am impressed! I wonder how many good and creative people will resign because you have introduced a new element of coercion into the mix. Oh well…

Re: A sad development

Curmudgeon,

Re: A sad development

“Or, if you see something that you feel goes against the values of the
community, use the system to pass out a 'bad seed' so as to both warn
other members and to make sure that piece of content is deemphasized”

“What happens as a result of this seed circulation?
Well, it impacts your reputation. Those of you who post content that is
appreciated by others develop a better reputation than those who
devalue the community, and your better reputation will give you more of
a 'say' on the site–that is, your input becomes more heavily weighted
as a result, while those members who don't contribute to the communtiy
don't have as much of a say.”

This sounds like a systematized method of control to me. It is called a “System” after all and it is an indirect rating system which is laid over the actual mode of interaction where folks can express approval or disapproval in person, directly to their discussion partner. Your reassurances are not reassuring. It is not the actual use of the System that bothers me it is that you people in the power structure have conceived of this system of control and think it is neat! otherwise you would not have implemented it, for crying out loud. That is what boggles me. Why did you find this necessary? What marketing principle does it fulfil? WHAT IS THE AGENDA that this expresses?

Warn other members?? …make sure that piece of content is deemphasized??

I repeat, in a community with the pretensions that Zaadz has this is very disturbing. I hope it is ignored, but I doubt it will.

“Seriously, though - if you have something meaningful to say, have the guts to say it regardless of our Trust System.” Listen, Jake, I don't need you to tell me that. Who do you people think you are anyway? I don't fear your Trust System I find it unnecessary and expressive of something I find is iconic of a deep malaise which permeates our society and now is introduced to Zaadz.

“Communities judge you and form opinions of you regardless of whether a
formalized system exists. People in communities talk about each other
without individuals knowing, and “reputations” form.” Yep, and that's fine. But now you have codified and mechanized something that worked naturally… why did you think that was a good idea? were the thought terrorists running riot through zaadz?? I doubt it. Just more reaching down into the life of the community and messing with it. You silly person, I  have lived for decades in communities of less than 1500 people. You don't need to lecture me about reputation formation. Controllers will never learn.

You don't even seem to see (or perhaps you don't care… or maybe this is your goal!) that this might… even that it just might have a modifying effect on the behaviors of some people on Zaadz: there might be those who will modify their writings, even on a level not fully conscious, to get more good strokes, likewise others might modify their behavior in ways they think will avoid the negative judgements of others. And you will have created this system of self modification, self shifting. There are people here who really depend on the companionship they receive from others on zaadz, you can tell just by reading the words they write. Now you controllers, the same people who inject new “features” into my profile without asking, without a default “off” setting, or who think it is ok to rearrange the layout of my profile page, without asking, now you have introduced a subtle form of control that I repudiate.  You don't deserve the allegience of anyone who values freedom of expression, and free, uncoerced discussion.

Re: A sad development

I truly am sorry you feel this way.

Re: A sad development

Jake?

Thank you.

What is respectful?

Jake,

You say, “Saying fuck you to me is not respectful. Expressing your deep concerns about the system is.”  This is the crux of the problem with bad seeds.

Bad seeds are the good-nice people's way of saying, “Fuck you!”  Others will feel violated.  I knew perfectly intelligent, nice-good people who could not get over being given a negative point at Omidyar because THEY could never understand the reason.  And THEY never will understand.  THEY will remain innocent in THEIR own minds.

And that's a good thing.

Most people on this board will agree with you, when you say, “Saying fuck you to me is not respectful.”  Most people everywhere will agree with you.  That many people, or even most people, hold the same belief does not make the belief valid.

For me, many times when someone says, “Fuck you!” I know that I have discovered a tender area in that person that needs care and attention.  I almost never take someone saying, “Fuck you!” to me in a negative way.  I thank THEM for THEIR honesty.

Everyone who cries out is helping US to see the planet's wounds –  OUR wounds.  WE need to help heal THEM, not to tell THEM how bad THEY are.  THEY wouldn't be acting out IF THEY didn't already feel bad.  Punishing THEM won't EVER work.

Because every THEM is US!

Re: A sad development

Jake, you are so taken up with yourself and the wonderfulness of the trust system you can't tell when someone is poking the envelope. Besides I don't respect the people (or at least the idea thay came up with… and they have allowed this to represent their psychological intelligence) who invented the system and I suspect there are reasons deeper than those expounded. WHy do we need another layer of coercion?? The good seeds… who cares? this would just be another irrelevent piece of code to clutter the internet… but the “BAD SEEDS”? uh-uh, I suspect the cretins who came up with this idea don't get the POSSIBLE effect, if they did understand the possible effect and did it anyway then they are much worse than cretins. This society already has enough of this shite why, in Zaadz of all places would you introduce more… what a bunch of fools! Why should I respect the idea you have imposed??

Does your “better world” include thought police? I don't want any part of it.

Re: A sad development

Curmudgeon,

I deleted the explative from your post.  Don't be disrespectful in my pod.  And I suggest you re-read the terms of use you agreed to when you joined this community, particularly ”By accepting this agreement, you acknowledge that you are entering this community with reverence, compassion, respect for yourself, your fellow members, and the law, and a desire to grow and to give to the world.“ 

Jake is one of our finest developers in both quality of code and person.  I really think you should be asking more questions and doing less assuming.  I must say, your tone is a bit off-putting to me.  As one who has been on the front-lines since very early on, evaluating applications into our community, asking for more information when necessary before giving the green light, and even occassionally deactivating accounts of scam artists and violators of our terms of use, I find this trust and reputation system to be a blessing.

That is, I no longer need be the sole arbiter in questionable situations.  Now, I can let the community be the guide.  That actually puts more power into your hands does it not?  Still, the terms of use agreement is in effect.

~M

Re: A sad development

That's ok Matthew, I decided late last night it would have been more effective to say “[expletive deleted] you anyway!”

Although I have noticed the fuck you echoed over and over, by Jake as well, so the meme lives on. Matt I don't even know you people but if this is for your convenience then I am even more aghast. Well I have said all I want to say, I'll just be repeating myself and the Department of Redundancy Department is closed.

I think you may well regret the introduction of the BAD SEED, it will bite you in the butt

Disrespect?

Jake, I mean you no disrespect.  I'm sure you are a very nice boy.  I can see by your post that you mean well and that the road to seeds was paved with good intentions.  I don't believe that WE, any of US, are competent to judge what is respectful – when it is not obvious.

The point system at Omidyar was one of the reasons for its failure.  Some folks will spread negativity and Other well-meaning folks will not see the negativity, but will think that reproach is sometimes needful and correct.  Others will spread a message that needs to be heard and addressed and Other well-meaning folks will see that message as needing reproach.

The tone of your posts to Curmudgeon is already sadly defensive.  YOU cannot help being defensive.  You created this wonderful, clever, useful system that is going to change the World and assholes like ME and Curmudgeon are finding fault with it – and by extension – with you.  I apologize to you, Curmudgeon for including you in column “A-hole!”

Something that needs to be defended needs to be removed.  Things that are right do not get attacked.  I'll bet anyone here lunch that there were comments at the meetings that you all held about creating a point system that brought up what to do when the idea was panned.

WE cannot teach anyone civility and morality through punishment, correction, or coercion.  ALL of US only gain permanent understanding and growth through positive reinforcement, good modeling and sharing with Others.  Bad seeds won't help anyone.

You say, “creativity doesn't necessitate being 'in-your-face'; that's only one expression of creativity among many.”  You are correct, but “being in-your-face” is one way of being and that Way of being has to be respected, honored and uplifted.  It is not the nice-good-sweet people who need protection.  The nice-sweet-good people have Marines and lawyers and SUVs to protect THEM.  The nice-good people are killing US all over the planet.

The nasty, mean, petty people need to be protected.  How did WE make THEM that way?

Some ideas can only be addressed through “in-your-face” rudeness.  High school athletes who put nooses in trees need immediate negative reinforcement.  WE need to make it immediately and abundantly clear that hatred will not be permitted, or WE will end up with assaults, court cases and marches later.

Additionally, certain “not-nice” people cannot frame ideas, or voice them in any manner other than “in-your-face” defensive rudeness. THEY do not know how, or why, THEY feel violated, but THEY can voice THEIR pain and frustration at what THEY consider to be a violation.  These people MUST be protected and most “nice, polite” people do not have the understanding, insight, or skills to protect THEM. 

Because “nice” people are  … well, nice.  Most of US have not lived lives filled misery,  pain and outrage.  WE're lucky and need to share OUR good fortune.  It is not enough for ME to commit to not using bad seeds, I must also stand in the road and say, “Giving bad seeds is wrong.  No one will be helped and many will be hurt.”

The nice-good people at Omidyar could never understand why negative points was any kind of BIG deal.  The nice good people here will not understand either.  Only those who are constantly in pain, or who live in empathy will understand why doing something painful ANY Other person is painful to US all  – ALL the time.

Many “good-nice” people will give troubled people, or outraged folks, bad seeds because EVERY time WE see THEIR outrage, the still-small-Voice in US resonates.  WE feel THEIR pain as OUR own because every time WE look outside OURselves, WE fail to see the beam in OUR own eyes and think that Others are somehow responsible for OUR outrage, or pain.

This is called the tuning-fork effect.  YOU may have encountered it in a psychology class.

Marcus Aurelius, he predates most psychology classes, said, “It only stings where we have wounds when others throw salt.”  Throwing salt, or bad seeds, at the wounded, or at anyone, will not help anyone, but has the potential for great harm, and psychologically speaking, says a lot more about those who throw salt than those who are wounded. 

I know there are no wounded among those good-nice people who run Zaadz, or even among those who use Zaadz, except possibly, ME and Curmudgeon.  God forbid.

And I do not use the G-word lightly.

My question is simple: What do WE do about the fella who kills himself between the time that someone gives him a bad seed, or several someones give him a few bad seeds, and the good-nice people who run Zaadz review his “situation.”

Crying out in pain is not a “situation.”  Crying out in pain is one of the bravest acts ANY animal can undertake.  WE ALL need to help – right then – by giving LOVE, aid and comfort – not by throwing salt.  We've had enough salt-throwing to last forever.

Those who sit quietly by, die of THEIR pain.  Either WE are ALL connected, or WE are not.

Re: Disrespect?

Text Mage, if you're going to call me an asshole at least capitalize the A OK? and that's Mr. Asshole to you anyway

Re: A sad development

I think you're putting an unnecessarily negative spin on it, Curmudgeon.  I find it an interesting experiment, which I will watch unfold with interest.  It is a much more flexible rating system than ones I've experienced on other forums in the past - the aspect of “rating the raters” is one that seems particularly important, and limiting the amount of feedback people can give makes it a potentially more useful tool.  One forum I was on which lacked those modulating qualities got into an awful “rating war” at one point.  This system seems like one that potentially may fare much better.  We'll see how it goes.  :)

spiral out,
arthur

Re: A sad development

I really like the idea of giving nice seeds to people whose blogs we enjoy.  I personally cringe a bit at the not nice seeds so I won't be giving any.  If I pop over to a blog that doesn't resonate with me, I don't go by again. Just because I don't like what one is saying, their words may be helpful to others and/or may bring help and support they themselves need. My belief is if someone is saying or posting anything that may be inappropriate eventually other members will stop visiting. Of course, if something really bothers us, we always have the voice to talk to the zaadz team as well.  As a manager, when issues arose, I gently pulled the employee aside to speak about the matter in a respectful and helpful manner.  This turned out to be a win-win and allowed the person to maintain their self-respect and modify what needs modification. 

I'll give this some time as it might be a good thing, a learning and growing experience.  I just prefer to focus on the positive and, again, I love the warm fuzzy seeds :)
Hugs and peaches,
Sprite

Re: A sad development

This is exactly how I hope most people will use the system. To highlight and reward content they felt was meaningful. The only time I've ever given negative feedback myself was for spam or blatantly abusive behavior. 

Re: A sad development

Give me a break Jake!!

If that is the case then shit-can the BAD SEEDS. Beside I can only give 5 seeds to one person. I wanted to give ALL my good seeds to a friend and couldn't do it (for probably obvious reasons, but only as protection from bad seeds).

If it meant to be all sweetness and lite then get rid of the pernicious BAD SEEDS

Re: A sad development

Thank you, Spritelet!

I'm not one to pass out bad seeds either, though they're there if you find anyone trying to pull Nigerian spamming tricks on the page. :) But yes… we're hoping these features will be used like this–I think it's wonderful to be able to throw some positive seeds in the direction of those who are really contributing to the community.

I love what you wrote about managing. Thank you, again. :)

Re: A sad development? or just how we look at it...

I for one would like to throw some seeds to Curmudgeon

He is right to be concerned about zealots who might turn the 'zaadz seeds' into a censorship system. But there are the rest of us who may very well recognise such activity for what it is. Close minded thinking has created many of the world's problems. We do not have to tolerate it in an open minded social network which zaadz strives to be.


A hammer can be used for construction or destruction, depending on the quality and intent of the hands which wield it. Great input Curmudgeon !

tom

Re: A sad development

Good Lord, I'm back in school. And an Orwellian nursery school with a “Trust System” at that. I wasn't able to finish reading the blurb before I got the sick feeling in my stomach: everyone is being told to watch everyone else and perform like good little snitches. But they can feel powerful, knowing they're “seeding” the place with their personal judgments about  what  every blog or post is worth.

Must be time to take wing and fly away from here. This is creeping censorship and, quite simply, appalling.

m

Re: A sad development

Mascha:

Censorship? How so? I'm sure you read our terms when you joined. It's not about censorship… it's about trust and respect and honoring others. Again, we implemented this little set of features to put the moderation control in your hands. The vast majority of you, when you join the site, join with a wonderful awareness of and passion for the values we intended for this community. There are definitely some, though, who join with malicious intent. For the most part, we on the Zaadz team get alerted to spammers and abusive users before they detract too much from the site–and we're able to shut down their profiles or otherwise bar them. Is that censorship? To my mind, giving YOU, the community, the power to make these decisions seems much more in alignment with our values. And again, why focus on the negative? This is a reward system, too… it'll allow others in the community to find those posts and discussions that others have found  valuable, and will make participating in these conversations more easy.

I'm a little puzzled by those who'd focus on the negative. It's not unusual to have  these sorts of systems in place, and this way, instead of you needing to come to the team members to resolve disputes or to 'police' content, you have the power to do so yourself.

In any case, I'm sure you read our terms when you joined. It's not about censorship… it's about trust and respect and honoring others. This is merely a means

Re: A sad development

Hi Siona,

I have to ask you this: are you being coy? Do you really not get what I and others here are objecting to?

m

Re: A sad development

No! Not coy at all! Read Jake's post above; he put it beautifully. Again… there's moderation in this community regardless of whether or not you, the regular users, have a say in it. We've had to remove members who don't hold to our guidelines, and as Matthew wrote, it's never an easy decision. This way, instead of those few of us at “the top” making the decision about what constitutes boot-worthy abuse, we can turn to the community and see what the verdict there is.

And again, why would people even use the bad seeds except in the worst cases? Why not just focus on distributing the positive? That way those posts and discussions that represent the best of what this community has to offer will “rise to the top,” so to speak, and so the good can be nurtured further. It's a collaboration, not a competition, and I firmly believe that a system such as this will help the community as a whole.

I hope I'm not being absurdly dense here. :) Anyway, if this turns out to be a complete disaster and the community starts capsizing into negativity–or even generic blandness–we can always turn it off. I think, though, that it'll be used judiciously and kindly, and I'm curious to see what posts and discussions get highlighted.

Re: A sad development

Curmudgeon!

Have a little faith, yo. Don't you think this community can tell the difference between empty pap that sounds pleasant but contributes little of worth and powerful points that might sound rough but that point to important truths? We didn't create this system to turn Zaadz into a bland and mediocre place! We created it to allow the community to decide for yourselves what you find valuable and important, so as to make it easier for others to discover, and to allow you, too, to play a larger role in the moderation that already (necessarily!) occurs.

No one said anything about rough edges; I tend to like them. It's more a matter of respect, and the ability to have a voice in the decisions we on the team already make.

Again, as I wrote in that little document, this system depends entirely on the intent of those using it. I have a great deal of faith in both the goodness and tolerance and discernment of the community, and I'm quite certain that people will use the 'bad seeds' only to alert others to violations of the terms (such as spamming or plagiarism or overly commercial posts)… and that circulating the good seeds will help all of us get connected to the conversations that are making a difference.

Also, Jake and the dev team put a huge amount of time into this. I'm incredibly proud and grateful for the work and the planning and dedication and coding, and it hurts a little to see this sort of response. Oh well, indeed…

Re: A sad development

It's a lousy idea. A really lousy idea. I'm sure the people who came up with it are really, really well meaning as well; I can feel their good vibes in there, but it's a lousy idea.

Mascha, I would give you Big Love if I were to play the game.

David

Re: A sad development

I'm confused!

If we hoard the seeds we get the seed logo lit, and if we give em away we have none
& stay in the dark.
I gave away my 68 that i started with somehow, and now i'm down to zero,
and my light ain't lit.

I posted how i feel under Jake's Current Status.
 ultimately i agree with David. “It's a lousy idea. A really lousy idea”

and I'm definately not crazy about the “FLAG THIS” on the blog posts.

Re: A sad development

Ladybear,

Re: A sad development

Thanks for the seeds clarification, Jake,

This leads me to another question…
How then is our reputation formed if not by people seeding us?
By our participation in the network?

I'm trying to get this!

Hugs & Thanks  XOOX

Re: A sad development

Hi.  I have a very strange, mixed feeling about the new system, as well as this thread.  I would like everyone reading this to take note of the tones taken up by both sides of the debate entertained in this thread.  SIDE NOTE: Please excuse my generalizations.  The people defending the system (mostly, its creators) are being incredibly humble, mature, respectful, and positive.  The people denouncing the new system are doing it in an deliberately sour, spiteful, sarcastic, immature tone.  I, personally, think this new system is (among other things) an attempt to minimize such cynical/negative comments.  Which is great for this community.  If you can't make a logical point without sounding pompous, immature, and hateful, then why are you here?  I don't want to blow on the negative flame that's already kindled here, but can everyone please consider the fact that pride, cynicism, sarcasm, and straight-up hateful language gets us nowhere?   I think its great that people are challenging this system.  All the power to you.  That is exactly WHY the system has been created, to add to this power.  But make your points in such a way that people will want to listen… not to make you sound smarter, or better, or more right than anyone else.  The smartest people in the world are those who realize how little they know. 
     Finally , with that out of the way, I would like to say that the idea of this system does make me uncomfortable.  I despise peer pressure.  Conformity makes me ill.  Aren't most of us this way?  I dare say these are natural instincts for Zaadsters:)  But these negative things occur in social settings where people allow them to happen.  This has yet to happen on Zaadz.  It might, but it hasn't yet, as far as I'm aware.  In short, we need to trust each other, be honest, and not abuse the power the creators of this incredible website are giving us.  I say lets try the seed thing.  And, worst case scenario: If it doesn't work, ditch it! We'll try something else!
     -zeb       

Re: A sad development

Zeb.

Goodness. A deep bow. Thank you so much for this; I completely agree. It's THIS that people should be using the seeds for–why not reward dissent? Why not give some postiive seeds to content that might be challenging, but that's expressed (and this is the crucial part!) in a manner that's respectful and thoughtful and creative, rather than cynical and destructive and cruel?

Anyway. You've definitely got it.

The thing is, and I think you've put your finger on this, too, it takes a mature and thoughtful and responsible group of people to use such a system in this fashion. I happen to believe that the Zaadz community is more than capable: this group is incredibly tolerant of different points of views, and I certainly don't see this new system as changing that. (And who knows? Perhaps you'll all be more tolerant than those of us on the moderation team have been…) So while I'm with you on that vague anxiety about conformity, I also don't see this group as one that would value catering to the status quo. I'd like to think that most of us have guts enough to give postiive seeds even to those we don't 'agree' with. :)

Thank you, again. Good stuff.

Re: A sad development

Zeb, love your post - and I share your mixed feelings.  Still, on balance I see this as a sophisticated first attempt on the part of Zaadz to create a system that might help cultivate the development of healthy natural hierarchy…we'll see how it works in practice.  The Z-team tells us that “good seeds” carry more weight than “bad seeds,” which sounds reasonable to me.  Based on what we've been told so far, someone would have to consistently be very obnoxious, rude, disrespectful etc. to accumulate enough “bad karma” to have their ability to post removed.  In my opinion if someone can't get play get along well enough with others to avoid that fate then I'd rather not read what they have to say anyway.

Mostly this sounds like an attempt to help bring people's attention to contributions and contributors who are particularly worthy of attention - or particularly worthy of avoiding - rather than an attempt to “censor” people.  

The most interesting (and, not coincidentally, uncomfortable) part of this is the positive and negative feelings it brings up in me around the whole process and associations of rating and being rated - thus helping me become more sharply aware of all the attachment and avoidance I have around those issues.  So, great…another fucking growth opportunity…wheeeeeee!   :p

spiral out,
arthur

Re: A sad development

Adastra?

“The most interesting (and, not coincidentally, uncomfortable) part of this is the positive and negative feelings it brings up in me around the whole process and associations of rating andbeing rated - thus helping me become more sharply aware of all the attachment and avoidance I have around those issues.  So, great…another fucking growth opportunity…wheeeeeee!   :p”

Re: A sad development

Siona, one of the many problems with the idea is that it will make it difficult for minority views. The popular views will get a lot of good seeds; the minority views negative seeds. The popular view isn't always right, so there's a problem with the idea.

I really don't see the need for it. Each pod as moderators, and if someone wants to send good vibes to another poster, they can do it on a thread, by shout out, or by PM or even email or skype or telephone or snail mail or even in person. There's no lack of ways to give someone a “good seed” if a person wants to.

What this idea does is open the door to people giving a lot of bad seeds. It sanctions and encourages the sending of bad seeds. Why would zaadz have a program that actually sanctions the sending of negativity like that?

~David

Re: A sad development

David!

Thank you, as always, for your thoughtful voice. I'm not particularly concerned about the minority thing–I HOPE this community is mature enough not to turn this whole thing into a popularity contest, but to use the seeds to support and encourage those responses that reflect the values of the site, regardless of how popular or 'out-there' the post or converastion might be, and to discourage posting that's disrespectful or cruel.

How does it encourage sending bad seeds? Just because the option is there doesn't mean you should use it; it's just there to empower you to dissuade members from using the site in ways that aren't in alignment with the terms we all agreed to when we joined. Again, right now, Matthew and Jodi and Rommel and the rest of the support team have this job. Why not allow the whole group to have a say?

I suppose I'm looking at this whole system from the perspective of the community as a whole, not from the perspective of any one individual. From this larger view, the seeds allow for negative and abusive content to be dealt with within the community, rather than bringing in some sort of outside moderator, and allow for content that's powerful and contributes (according to the community itself) to the values of the group to grow and to bubble to the top. And from this point of view, then, it's a system that's good for the whole.

Re: A sad development

But Siona, why hope that something Zaadz has introduced won't damage zaadz… don't you see how weird that is? are you that dense? And No I do not think people discern the fluff as fluff or there wouldn't be so much of it here IMHO.

Oh, for crying out loud, I am just a cranky geezer anyway and I am leaving so you can soil you own nest as much as you want. I am just amazed that the implications of introducing this “System” at this time in this society's life escapes you. Wake UP! Sheesh!

Re: A sad development

Way too convoluted for my pea-sized thinker!

Re: A sad development

Never been one for posting.  I'm fascinated by the seeds.
I'm curious about all the metaphors involved in planting seeds.  If you're suffering a drought and your soil isn't rich enough to grow anything, what seed will grow? 
If you're living in a country suffering a drought, what seed will grow?
If you genetically engineer your seeds, what harvest if any do you reap?
If it just isn't possible to grow anything, you don't get any new seeds.  Your land is dead.
If feels like positive reinforcement, a social exercise, a coercion.
So take note, all my 25 seeds go to the next person who posts.  I'm okay whether I'm given any or not.  It isn't such a hard row to hoe you know.

Re: A sad development

I'm fascinated, too, and I'm even more fascinated by the various reactions to them. Thank you.

Re: A sad development

I am going to try to be opened minded about this thing and my first gut reaction is true disappointment…The “trust” system feels like it is built upon a basic feeling of mistrust. All of the sudden, it feels very uptight and conservative rather than open and explorative. My reactive self wants to just take my profile down immediately. Something free and open is now feeling systematized and almost political. I am sad about this and I recognize that the intention is not bad. I am wondering if there is a way to make this more open. Right now, the way the system reads is not exciting but restictive and punitive feeling. I am thinking of a child who is misbehaving - ignoring them is usually the best thing- no bad seeds. And on a psychological note this system does not seem to do a very good job of separating personhood from behavior. I mean someone can write something disagreeable- do a bad behavior and this does not make them a bad person- hence they should not develop a poor reputation. Oy!

Re: A sad development

Oh, Wabisabisatva… thanks so much for these reflections. Does it really come across as being so mistrustful? I'd like to think that it's possible to focus more on the positive and rewarding side. We could certainly remove the negative seed aspect (positive seeds only are fine in my book!) but then we're stuck with the problem of how to find and deal with those who are abusing the site.

Ai. Perhaps it's our own fault–the current moderators do such a good job of keeping an eye on the community and watching for those who are misbehaving (that is, spamming, or asking for large sums of money to be transfered to them, or sending cruel and sexist comments to women) that it's easy to imagine that this place remains good and kind and respectful without such moderation.

Thank you again though for these reflections, and especially for being so aware of your reactive self. I'm glad your profile is still here. (And yes, the personhood / behavior thing is something I'd been thinking of, too. That said, why would having a poor reputation, or a low score, make you a 'bad person'? In the Zaadz universe, it means only that you haven't been playing nice–no more and no less. )

Re: A sad development

I am having a struggle with this “Seed” thing.

Seriously…Trust?   System?   Good seed?    Bad seed?  Reputation?   Haven't been playing nice?

What is this really saying? 

I am fairly new to zaadz and have enjoyed and met many wonderful people here. It is sad to see all the comments about  them leaving, due to this seed thing.

If you want to “put the moderating power of the community in our hands,” then let us have a “hand” in the decision before putting it into effect.

*Snow*Moon*

Re: A sad development

Siona- Thank you for your response. I feel heard… and hope that this charge can actually bring this community together. It feels as though we have entered a new developmental phase and are experiencing some growing pains…Hopefully we can get through it.

Re: A sad development

Hi, Gang,

I don't want to be unmindful of my speech or question anyone's motivations, but I need to add that this won't work for me.  I desire a community where I can speak freely without  concern for what people think or whether my ideas are fashionable.  I don't like having knowlege of this system in the back of my mind before I write.

I realize I could just try to forget about it, but why should I go to all that trouble?

I'd also like to add my personal impression that we are not growing by leaps and bounds. (Alexa)   I realize those numbers are not completely accurate, but even if they are off by a large mark I believe this new idea creates more problems than it solves.

To me, it's fair to say that few friendship-sincere people join a community in the hope that their comments will be critiqued, analyzed and ranked.  Perhaps there are a few but where such systems exist the people who join are most often there to promote themselves, a product or a service  - often through questionable means.  For a tool that's being sold under the idea of promoting meaningful conversation this simply seems off base. .

In terms of products and services, let me also mention hat no matter how well intentioned a person may be, I think we've all had our fill of Amway types and self-promoters.  I can't speak for anyone else, but the last thing I need is another Zaadz friendship request where someone tells me about their great music but doesn't mention a thing about me.  This system seems destined to attract and retain more of those personality types. - imho

Then, there's simply the integrity of the system itself which will surely be called into question.  Will it work similarly to the “Popular Blog Tags” listed on our home page which, at least to me, seem to omit almost all of the popular blog topics I read.

I could easily be mistaken, and forgive me for saying this up if I am, but in a group of people out to “change the world” it seems odd that there is no tag for activism, politics, and so many others.  Is there actually a “system” that rises these things to the top or do we just have the appearance of a system?  If so, how is this new system any different?

I  certainly don't want to raise any unnecessary questions, but these are my concerns.

I wish Zaadz well.

Re: A sad development

I can't speak for anyone else, but the last thing I need is another Zaadz friendship request where someone tells me about their great music but doesn't mention a thing about me. This system seems destined to attract and retain more of those personality types.  

Re: A sad development

Jake, thanks for your reply.   I appreciate your response, but the tag clouds in question look no more natural to me than the mission statement that precedes them.  My observation remains.

Re: A sad development

This is a brave idea Siona and Team, and I salute you, to boldly go where people may kick and scream! How may I ask do we grow, if not by hard work on ourselves?

Re: A sad development

Thank you, Siona. You add a wonderful presence here.

One thing the system doesn't account for is that every person has a shadow.

But the colossal trouble with this system is that people will be allowed to give bad seeds, and no one would ever know why they got there. No one would be able to defend themselves against bad seeds. There would be no record of what happened at all. Perhaps the person who gave the bad seed was really in the wrong. There would be no way of knowing.

In a modern society we have courts of law. People are innocent until proven guilty, and those who are accused are allowed to hear what charges have been brought against them, and they are allowed to defend themselves. Most importantly, evidence must be presented in order to prove a person guilty.

With this system, there is none of that. There is no record of what happened, and therefore a person could never defend themselves against bad seeds. This system is without question premodern. It does not offer more fairness but less.
 
Imagine if the Bush administration said they were going to insitute a “Bad Seed System” where citizens would be allowed to send in bad seeds about other citizens, and if a person accumalated enough bad seeds they would be jailed or exiled or who knows what. Of course, everyone would object; only the biggest fascists out there would think that it would be a good idea. Somehow in smaller communities things like this can creep in. It would be interesting to look into why that is.

~David

Re: A sad development

A few last notes before I sleep. 

Re: A sad development

Jake:  “1) There is a record of every feedback transaction.”

Meaning, who gives what rating to whom?


J: “It is currently not exposed on the site,”

Which site?


J: …”but we can track every positive and negative piece of feedback. We will review these to defend against misuse...

Who is We? And how does this lighten the load of moderaters as Siona has pointed out in defense of this addition, when now they have to review these transactions as well?

Surely, those in favor can see why so many people aren't comfortable with some aspects of this system, including the surveillance aspect?


m

Re: A sad development

I'm sure the Trust system will be refined over time…and it makes me so much more hopeful about the site's future (which, strangely enough, matters to me).

No matter where you wander on Zaadz, there seems to be an aura of compassion and hope.  The site is going to grow exponentially if it stays true to it's current spirit.  What will happen when mods are unable to keep track of feedback of members, posts, blogs, ideas, etc.  “Featured Members” could have cartoons of bloody chainsaws under the words “keep it brutal” in their profiles (as seen in a MySpacer's profile…I found him on the MySpace homepage under “Cool New People” today).  There goes the neighborhood.

People who are struggling in life should come to Zaadz for relief, encouragement, kindness, compassion, discussion, and the ability to be open and honest - WITHOUT being destructive.  Ok - so the chainsaw thing would never happen here, but negative energy is usually much more subtle than bloody chainsaws.  If we want Zaadz to grow strong, it has to be organic and self-healing.

I hope Tom's right that open-minded understanding will win out over ideological tyranny.  And I hope (and believe) the Z-Team will refine the Trust system if it falls short.  For example, there should be a way that people can make appeals to the team when they feel unfairly maligned.  I'm sure the community will contribute to make this work well.  Nothing is ever perfect, but passion and community enable growth and refinement.  Nothing lacking here.  Zaadz has soul and a bright future.

Re: A sad development

Jake said: “1) There is a record of every feedback transaction. It is currently not exposed on the site, but we can track every positive and negative piece of feedback. We will review these to defend against misuse.”

But the question is not what the feedback was but what actually happened to inspire the feedback. Will there be a record of that?

Also, has it been explained anywhere just why the old system wasn't working?

~David

Re: A sad development

ZaadzSTARS :)  Lets stop taking this all so seriously.

Zaadz wants us all living, living in abundance, living in totality, living intensely ~ not at the minimum, but at the maximum, overflowing.

Our lives should reach to others. Our blissfulness, our benediction, our ecstasy should not be contained within us like a seed. It should open like a flower and spread its fragrance to all and sundry ~ not only to the friends but to the strangers too.

This is real compassion, this is real love: sharing our enlightenment, sharing our dance of the beyond. I know the sleeves of my garment contain an abundance of seeds, and as the wind blows, my seeds will be scattered to take root where they may. I'm not concerned whether they land on the soil or on the rocks ~ I'll be spreading them everywhere in sheer celebration of life and love.

How many seeds do I get for this posting??? (lol)

Re: A sad development

At least one ;) 

Re: A sad development

Wow!  Reading through all these posts, I would say Wabisabisatva's reaction was very close to mine. 

Also, dismay in general.  I really think it's kind of complex, and it's difficult for me to grasp the whole thing.  Oh well.

I guess my contribution to this discussion would be two things: 

First, Ladybear had a really good question in her response, and nobody who would know the answer has answered it as of yet. 

Second, WHY are we having a Trust System now?   

I get it that we have grown really, really big and that there are all kinds of people here with all sorts of agendas, and some of them may be a little problematic in their behavior possibly.  And Siona has explained that there is already a vigorously used monitoring process in place, and it has been working because some very dedicated people have been really keeping their eyes on what all the Zaadsters are posting and saying to one another.  And I'm wondering why that isn't enough.  Why do we need this new system?

As for my reaction now, I think it's good to keep an open mind.  I'll just be my normal self and do what I normally do.  If I can figure out what to do with the darn seeds, maybe I'll try to do some of it and see what happens.  What the heck?    ….but I do want to know WHY, and also the answer to Ladybear's question, too.

And thank you for your thoughts and efforts.

Re: A sad development

I think we should give this idea a chance and not pass judgment so quickly.  The idea is just an idea. 

Whatever your  positive or negative feelings are about this idea, you do not have to take any action.. You have a choice.   So do the others. Why prevent or discourage others  from participating?  . It is not necessary to crush or kill ideas you  personally don't agree with.

Let the idea grow and prosper –OR –  die a natural death…..

peace,
mimi

Re: A sad development

I am saddened by the negativity this “seed” business seems to be fostering in some. 

Perhaps this negativity is an argument against the seeds.  Perhaps it gives validity to the seeds. 

There are those that will judge their worth in the “reputation” gained or lost here.  So be it.

I, for one, do not find my value or self-worth in or from others.  I find my value and self-worth WITH others.  Hence, I neither fear nor welcome the seeds, and will form an opinion as the concept takes hold.  If positive - then good.  If negative, perhaps we can again take up this feedback - yet the careful nurturing of the zaadz team will most likely note anything awry before many of us.

Let the seeds grow before we reap!  They have the potential of being an invasive weed, but they also have the potential of a beautiful flower.

Re: I am not saddened ...

I think it is a good thing to try. it may flop, it may fly … it may be on life support within a week.

Overall though, it may help me (and you) sift through the myriad of ideas floating around zaadz to select those that may be among the best. Let's face it, no one can read all this stuff, view all the pictures and debate all the ideas … it is just too vast.

It has the potential to become abetter 'wiki' of social and cultural ideas where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. or it could just flop.

Hell. er …  heck, … hey it's worth a try. and I haven't given all my seeds away yet!

Re: I am not saddened ...

Thank you, Tom.

:) This is precisely what I think should happen. We hope that this will be a great tool for our community. It is structured with the intent to be positive. It could be an amazingly exciting tool for everyone. The community has the power and the choice.

Thank you for your positive input, Tom. Yes! “I think it is a good thing to try. it may flop, it may fly…”

Re: I am not saddened ...

Good morning Zaadz community~~

I too, need time to “digest” this idea, but also think it is a good structured & positive tool for the community.

However, I am sadden by the responses of some who don't even want to give it a chance and claim that they are leaving the site.

(Now, give me my seeds!)  >smiles<

*Snow*Moon*

Re: A sad development~roots, trunk, fruit and seeds

As I try to reply to this thread  that I've been following  since last night after I'd blogged my knee-jerk reaction, before the balancing one comes through, I would like to be able to see all posts in this thread. Clicking the “Reply to  Thread” link at the last post, causes just that one to be displayed.
Clicking “Show all posts in this thread” causes all to vanish.  This is not a How To or Support question - it's been posted on one of them earlier - -this is a point I”m making to show that we need to nourish the roots for seeds to fly free to seed a more healing world.  The infrastructure has to be looked after. Cross-browser compatibility does not even seem to be a priority, as it is admittedly a difficult thing to achieve [not impossible, though].  For this reason, I apologize for not naming those thougths I've agreed with, and those I have not.

I've sometimes asked what is the change that people want to see in the world; what is it that we are not happy about- and even more, what do we dream about? Do we look at the world, and every thing old as something to throw out? Everything new as something to adopt?  Or vice versa?  We need to have more discussion or reflection on that – that would be the trunk of the tree.

One of the changes that some who have wandered here would like to see, is the non-duality of  life filtering down into our daily lives. We try to move away from being intolerant even to those people or ideas who seem intolerant; we strive to stay in oneness and away from the subjectivity and shifting sands of positive-negative. Is there just one point of view of what is negative?  Of what is positive?

Already we begin to see: those who agree with me, are positive, and those who do not, are negative. Those who modulate their voices are positive, those who do not are negative.

On a theoretical- practical note: as I keep changing, and so do my views, moving from knee-jerk-to balanced-to reactive …what happens to seeds I gave out and wish I hadn't; or those I didn't, and wish I had? Are we going to now focus on seeds given to us or to others, rather than building up the trunk, branches and fruit? Is the bitter fruit going to be removed and the sweet one accepted?

As one who likes both, and enjoys disagreement,  I am stil smiling. But dear Zaadz team, did you fully think things through?  Perhaps this discussion is doing that—helping us all to think things through.

And that, dearest Curmudgon, is not sad. Thank you for starting this thread.

Re: A sad development~roots, trunk, fruit and seeds

This is so funny!

I don't don't know even what to think of it.

This thing is just raising our consciousness of our poularity. Popularity is not a guiding principle for me.

Now I have to think a bout these seeds!!!! But I don't want…That's not why I'm here…. I don't want to play this game of yours that is now imposed on me. Seeds!!!!!

I'm starting to feal increasingly uncomfrotable with new features appearing here on Zaadz.

I don't think there is bad intention or motivation in the Zaadz team.

But I think that a certain “spirit” or vMeme or stage of consciousness is starting to spread it's influence. That is preventing other Memes or stages to fly freely through Zaadz, as the features start to be oriented.

I don't want to have to think about seeds! I repeat: I don't want to have to think about seeds…

Re: A sad development~roots, trunk, fruit and seeds

Meenakshi,  Thank you for the beautiful WISDOM in your post!  I hope everyone reads it with an open heart.

As to your first questions here's a recommendation for now.   If you think have more than a line or 2 of comment or response do not hit the reply button.  Have a little text editor window open, follow the thread and  you can type your reflections on each post there.  Then open the reply and copy / paste.  Will this work?

Re: A sad development

This will be interesting to watch and participate in.  I do like the concept, andI think that the 'good and bad seeds' will help promote more kind words all around.  

Re: A sad development

TextImage said: “You say, “Saying fuck you to me is not respectful. Expressing your deep concerns about the system is.”  This is the crux of the problem with bad seeds.

Bad seeds are the good-nice people's way of saying, “Fuck you!”  Others will feel violated.”


This is really true, Jake. Please listen to it. There are other ways to deal with the issue. The seed system will harm the vibe of the place in a big way. 

Please look for other ways to deal with the issue.

~David

 

Re: A sad development

Hi All,

This has been a great conversation!  But most of it would fit better in the Think Tank.  So, if you want to continue to hash out the pros and cons you see in this system, please do it there.  I'm going to lock this thread now.  I may be deleting it at a later time if it skews the search and makes it hard for people to find answers to their questions.  Let's keep this pod as I intended it to be: for writing “How To's” and for answering your questions about the site (in this discussion board, for example, with the TR system).

Thank you all,
~M

Re: A sad development

Hi All,

This has been a great conversation!  But most of it would fit better in the Think Tank.  So, if you want to continue to hash out the pros and cons you see in this system, please do it there.  I'm going to lock this thread now.  I may be deleting it at a later time if it skews the search and makes it hard for people to find answers to their questions.  Let's keep this pod as I intended it to be: for writing “How To's” and for answering your questions about the site (in this discussion board, for example, with the TR system).

Thank you all,
~M

Re: A sad development

This is how every community goes.  This judgement system starts and for the ruffians and down-to-earth individuals who dont hesitate to “keep it real”, we get slaps on the wrist, we get pushed to the back of the room where it is noisest so we can't be heard.  I am the last person you will find worshipping the book “The Secret”-which is no more than a money-making idea meant to appeal to the half-learned New Age crowd whose heads are too far up in the clouds and they being so desperate for a transcendent experience that they will not ask enough questions-the hard questions at that.  A large crowd here at Zaadz are attracted to such things as “The Secret” which is fine but excuse us if we aren't bubbling over with joy on a 24-7 basis, have a “totally successful yoga practice in which i make sure i look like a supermodel before teaching it and forget the spirit of true humility that must be incorporated into my practice”.

I attended a school in NYC full of people who were completely impressionable and it was one of these “new” schools that pop up everywhere.  The founder an leader said it was a revolutionary school and we are here to shake things up blah blah blah, but as soon as i started criticizing their curriculum and the amount of fluff and positive reinforcement (almost to the point of brainwashing in my opinion) they filled it with (instead of you know, actual learning) no more than 3 weeks later i was told to leave (though they tried asking to make it sound less offensive-even AFTER i told them i wanted to stay and graduate at least)!  I sense a little bit of that with the seed system.  Almost as a way to track the “rabblerousers” who arent on the “i am a god incarnate and feel only joy….feel only joy…..feel only joy” bandwagon.

I have been margnalized and know what the signs of it are.  Seeds smells of it.  The only difference is that a larger group will be dropping you negative seeds because you are talking about something they dont like or that makes them uncomfortable.

In closing i will say this:  the world is lucky to have nay-sayers and the “ruffians” who bring up the hard questions and cut through the crap and fluff of a concept and bring out the meat and potatoes.

Re: A sad development

It seems to me that Curmudgeon has a relevant point to make concerning this somewhat Orwellian ‘seed system’. However, I’m reminded (as is often the case) of a thought provoking set of ideas from the philosopher, James P. Carse. In his gorgeous little book, Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility, he elucidates what appears to me to be the crux of this current situation:

(1) There are at least two kinds of of Games. One could be called finite, the other infinite.

A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing the play.

(2) There is no finite game unless the players freely choose to play it. No one can play who is forced to play.

It is an invariable principle of all play, finite and infinite, whoever plays, plays freely. Whoever must, play, cannot play.

(3) Just as it is essential for a finite game to have definitive ending, it must also have a precise beginning. Therefore, we can speak of finite games as having temporal boundaries … to which, of course, all players must agree. But players must agree to the establishment of spatial and numerical boundaries as well. That is, the game must be played within a marked area, and with specified players.

…Numerical boundaries take many forms but are always applied in finite games. Persons are selected for finite play. It is the case that we cannot play if we must play, but it is also the case … that we cannot play alone. Thus, in every case, we must find an opponent, and in most cases teammates, who are willing to join in play with us.

…Because finite players cannot select themselves for play, there is never a time when they cannot be removed from the game, or when the other contestants cannot refuse to play with them. The license never belongs to the licensed, nor the commission to the officer. What is preserved by the constancy of numerical boundaries, of course, is the possibility that all contestants can agree on an eventual winner. Whenever persons may walk on or off the field of play as they wish, there is such confusion of participants that none can emerge a clear victor.

(5) Only one person or team can win a finite game, but the other contestants may well be ranked at the conclusion of play.
…There are many games we enter not expecting to win, but in which we nonetheless compete for the highest possible ranking.

(6) In one respect, but only one, an infinite game is identical to a finite game. Of infinite players we can also say that if they play they play freely; if they must play, they cannot play.

Otherwise, infinite and finite play stand in the sharpest possible contrast.

Infinite players cannot say when their game began, nor do they care. …the only purpose of the game is to prevent it from coming to an end, to keep everyone in play.

While finite games are externally defined, infinite games are internally defined. The time of an infinite game is not world time, but time created within the play itself. Since each play of an infinite game eliminates boundaries, it opens to players a new horizon of time.

(7) Finite games can be played within an infinite game, but an infinite game cannot be played within a finite game.

Infinite players regard their wins and losses in whatever finite games they play as but moments in continuing play.

(8) If finite games must be externally bounded by time, space, and number, they must also have internal limitations on what the players can do to and with each other. To agree on internal limitations is to establish rules of play.

…If these restraints are not observed, the outcome of the game is directly threatened. The rules of a finite game are the contractual terms by which the players can agree who has won.

(9) The rules must be published prior to play, and the players must agree to them before play begins.

A point of great consequence to all finite play follows from this: The agreement of the players to the applicable rules constitutes the ultimate validation of those rules.

(10) If the rules of a finite game are unique to that game it is evident that the rules may not change in the course of play –else a different game is being played.

It is on this point that we find the most critical distinction between finite and infinite play. The rules of an infinite game must change in the course of play. The rules are changed when the players of an infinite game agree that the play is imperiled by a finite outcome–that is, by the victory of some players and the defeat of others.

The rules of in infinite game are changed to prevent anyone from winning the game and to bring as many persons as possible into the play.

If the rules of a finite game are the contractual terms by which the players can agree who has won, the rules of an infinite game are the contractual terms by which the players agree to continue playing.

For this reason the rules of an infinite game have different status from those of a finite game. They are like the grammar of a living language, where those of a finite game are like the rules of debate. In the former case we observe rules as a way of continuing discourse with each other, in the latter we observe rules as a way of bringing the speech of another person to an end.

The rules, or grammar, of a living language are always evolving to guarantee the meaningfulness of discourse, while the rules of debate must remain constant.”

So, do we play?

Respectfully,
Dave

Re: A sad development

hi everyone,

we appreciate your feedback and concerns about the Trust System. however, like Matthew said, this discussion is better off on the Thinktank pod. feel free to continue the discussions there (see this thread).

thanks!

this thread is now locked.

~C