Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this way

This thread I've started because I was half-way through a reply to Siona's recent letter on the Integral Spirituality in the 21^st Century thread when I realised I was so way off-topic I just couldn't continue – and reading Balder's reliably erudite (and concise!) reply to Siona may have had something to do with it too : ) But once one's begun to bare ones soul (even if only a little, in truth) one can find oneself simply compelled to see it through ….

So … this isn't an “I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours” thing … but … if anyone does want to come to the confessional, 25%Father Lol will be absolutely delighted to hear your confession :)

My reply to Siona got so far:

“Hey Siona (namaste, bow)
Thanks for those links, extremely interesting articles. Even though I'm not a Third Culture Kid or a Cross Culture Kid I could feel myself resonating with quite a lot of what I read, and I can see how similar benefits and challenges to those that TCKs and CCKs experience could be experienced at later stages in life even, when we might do a lot of travelling or adopt a different religion / form of spirituality (anyway, we've always got our internal kid : )).

I was brought up a good Catholic boy (well, you know … :) ) I became a suitably devout altar boy, 'discovered' I had a vocation when I was eight and made the grade at the age of twelve, entering a seminary that was a production line for parish priests. [I'm not being very generous here … it provided a damned good education! … Underlings, Low Figures, High Figures, Grammar, Syntax, Poetry, Rhetoric, Philosophy (two years) and Divinity (four years) … kind of wish I'd made it past the beginning of Grammar though :-(  ] Three years later came the Fall - I fell off the conveyor belt and was expelled. I already had a lengthy list of black marks against my name for such misdemeanours as being caught with a James Bond paperback in my dormitory-cubicle chest-of-drawers (hidden amongst the shirts) or smoking 'out of bounds' in the back plantation, but the critical mass was effectively reached when I was grassed on for masturbating with another boy in his cubicle. (He had arrived at the beginning of term, was physically powerful for his age, very good at sport, and, being the cloistered innocent that I was, I was no match for his charms.) In December 1967 I was summoned to see the President – I'll never forget the apprehension I felt walking down the special sprung-linoleum floor of the corridor leading to Monsignor Grant's rooms. To my surprise my parents were there with the Monsignor, then surprise turned to shock & horror and in turn to humiliation as I realised I'd been rumbled. It was, to put it mildly, a rather traumatising experience. I was talked about rather than to, and it was made clear I was to leave at the end of that autumn term. At home I felt something of an exile, yet was also feeling mortified and indignant as I remained for a while clinging stubbornly to the belief that I still wanted to be a priest – although if I'd been less unconscious I would have seen that the writing had been on the wall for a good year or so … being allowed to watch “Top of the Pops” in Father Gilmore's room (he was the Form Master for High Figs, and really was so cool … he used to rattle through the mass (Latin of course) at one hundred miles an hour), on his b&w telly, and sooooo getting the Beach Boys' “Good Vibrations”… this was probably the beginning of the end for me. Sometime not too long after I was back at home, though, it all came to a head. What blazed in my mind was “If I'm not good enough for them then they're not good enough for me” and I promptly stopped going to Mass, on Sunday or any day. Catholicism was chucked there and then, and I became something of a spiritual orphan.”

Well, I could have gone blathering on about how ten tears later I got into Buddhism (it's interesting how many Catholics get into the dharma, but maybe not so surprising considering the rules/vows both have) living in a dharma centre for three years, with initiations into Secret Mantra and the accompanying Tantric vows that can never ever be revealed, and how when I left and re-entered the outside world I felt I was living something of a double-life, bit of a “stranger in a strange land” thing going on …. but I'm really a lot more interested in hearing your confessions …. so, pull open that curtain, step into this little wood-panelled space, close the curtain behind you, sit down in an appropriately repentive fashion, lean towards the grill and say: Bless me Father for I have sinned, it is ? weeks/months/years since my last confession and these are my sins ……

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Peace be with you, Brother Lol.  In nomine patri et filii et spiriti sanctum…

Another almost-Catholic here…

What sort of confessions will you hear?  Our Catholic dalliances and failures?  Or other treasures from our deep, dark wells?

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Amen, Brother B.

“What sort of confessions will you hear?  Our Catholic dalliances and failures?  Or other treasures from our deep, dark wells?”

Spoilt for choice, now … but I think those “other treasures” just shades it.

On second thoughts … let it all pour out, my brethren. Spirit works in mysterious ways …

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Lol! This is excellent; what a rich and raw story; it reads like a book. So I'm so thankful for your off-topic-ness, and I like that you resonated some with those articles.

An aside: It's a curious world – and attempt at indenity – that notion of being third-cultural. Imagine trying to shape a sense of self in a multiplicity of cultures; spending a few formative years in a society that values collectivism and quiet and then expecting to continue one's development in an individualistic nation such as the US, or vice versa, does something to a child's process. Developing a sense of self depends in part on having stable reference points – think of a child learning about how her parents react to her behavior – and if those references point are in constant flux, the project gets tricky. Again, this may well be a bit of a stretch, but I can see very much the same thing happening in one's spiritual, rather than egoic, development. There's something to be said for an established container. (And while being aware of this container is obviously crucial, I don't think the awareness of other paths would devalue it in the slightest.)

But I digress.

My sins? My sins consist mostly in believing in them at the time. (So far I've learned that the heinous sins of my youth were really just lessons, or inexpert attempts toward something I didn't then understand. But I'm not sure. Perhaps they were sins then.) My sins consist in years of self-hatred and despair and a pitiable attempt to use Buddhism to annihilate the ego I so desperately loathed. (I did end up nearly dying; this was not what I had in mind.) My sins involve using spirituality as a way to justify self-destruction. I used to be very cruel.

I might come back to this later, though. I do love this topic. And I am moved to say, Lol, again, that your own story is great.

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Bless me Father Lol, for I have sinned, though truly it's been only about three weeks since my last confession…

It was actually my very first attempt at confession, at age – 12 or 13? – that turned me away from Catholicism until my mid-thirties. (And even now it looks like I'm pretty much a heretic …)

Anyway, I've told this story in bits and pieces on various threads the Integral Naked forum before. This is more of the complete enchilada.

I went to an explicitly muliticultural, relatively progressive, post-Vatican II Catholic girls school. And ironically, we had better sex education (including a lot of info on birth control) than the local public schools. But it was far from perfect.

I recall a book we were given that went over some information that we never discussed in class. There was a section on masturbation that emphasized that it was not something that caused blindness or insanity or any of those other things that people used to be told in an attempt to keep them from doing it. But it was also described as a male activity. Nearly all boys masturbated at some time or other, the book asserted, but very few girls did. And while this book did not really define adolescent masturbation in itself as a sin, readers were warned that masturbating “too often” was not  good for the spirit, and that it might lead to problems in marriage.

So when I figured out that this pleasurable past-time I'd been engaging in for quite some time was probably masturbation, I was alarmed. If it was a largely male activity, what did that mean about me? Why was I one of the few female freaks that engaged in this? Was there something “male” about me?

And how often was “too often” anyway? There was absolutely no one I could ask. Not my parents, not my girlfriends (since of course they probably didn't do this nasty thing), not my siblings, not my teachers. But there was one thing for sure: I didn't want to have any problems in my future marriage. So I decided I'd better give up masturbation, or at least cut way down to make sure that I wouldn't fall into the “too often” category.

I had a wall calendar in my room and rewarded myself with one of those stick-on gold stars for each day that I did not masturbate. Things seemed to be going pretty well for a while – but then I started having wet dreams. (That's right: they're not just for boys). I figured I could not personally be blamed for these dream events, but they were a cause for worry. Sometimes I spent the night at a girlfriend's house, where we'd usually share a bed. What if I had one of those dreams while sleeping over? I might wake her up, and she'd wonder what was going on. What to do, what to do. The best solution seemed to be to pre-emptively jill off to cool down whatever energies might attempt expression through my dreams.

Since I was still unclear on this “too often” thing, I wondered if confession was the proper solution. If it was, though, I'd just have to be damned, I figured, because there was no way in this world I was going to tell any male priest about my freakishness. No way in hell.

Something else happened that truly had me wanting to go to confession, though. My mother, a bird lover, had six Java Temple finches in a large cage in our living room. One of my weekend chores was to clean this cage. The birds were beautiful, but I was always irritated by how scared they seemed to be of me or of any human. I took it upon myself to “tame” them by catching them one by one and holding them, giving them the opportunity to get accustomed to being handled. But of course they never got used to any human presence – it's just not in the finch's nature.

At any rate, I was holding one of these birds one day, and he pecked at my hand and actually bit me. Irritated, I squeezed him more tightly. Too tightly, apparently – I felt the bird's heart beating in the palm of my hand – and then he shuddered and stopped breathing. I saw the light go out of his eyes. When I opened my hand, he dropped to the floor. I blew on him in hopes of resuscitating him – to no avail.

I'd killed one of my mother's birds, and I felt like a murderer, because my angry actions had caused his death. Certainly this was something I needed to confess.

I had never been to confession and was not confirmed. My mother still took me to church sometimes, but for a variety of reasons no longer took communion, so I never did either. But one day in religion class at school, all of us were offered an opportunity to go to confession if we wanted to. There would be no intimidating booth and grille, simply a room where we'd sit face to face with the priest and talk informally. This priest was a visitor whom we'd never see again, not the usual young Jesuit who served at our school masses. And if we were still feeling trepidatious about it, we could invite a friend to join us.

So my best friend, Rita, decided that she and I would go to confession together. This ruined everything for me. Since this priest was a stranger, I had considered that I just might be able to confess both my freaky habit and my bird-murder to him. But if Rita was going to be in there with me, I wouldn't be able to discuss these things at all.

What was even more messed up was that once we got into the room with the priest, we both froze up – afraid of being the first to speak up – and the priest actually got impatient. He sighed, looked at his watch, and reminded us that there were scads of other girls waiting to confess. I think Rita came up with some lame story about taking the Lord's name in vain. She was absolved, and we were both excused.

So that did it for me: that night I became a Protestant / Pagan. I figured: if God couldn't hear my confession directly, what kind of a God was he anyway? I admitted I was genuinely sorry for the bird-murder, but not for the pleasurable freakiness. And I came to a kind of “Huckleberry Finn” conclusion: if I was really going to be damned for such a thing, well then, I'd just have to be damned.

So there you have it, Fr. Lol: my hitherto “unconfessed confession!”

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

Mary

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Ah Mary, I love you dearly for your confession. And it had me in absolute stitches!

Say three Hail Marys and a couple of Glory Bees (it just looked so silly without the extra e) and I'm sure it'll all be sorted for you upstairs.

Father Lol

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

I swear, early this morning I had a dream in which I was considering the idea of posting a confessional thread. I had decided against it because it seemed too likely to run into self-flagellation in a negative way; now I run across this thread…veerrry interesting. On that note, though, I think this can be a productive affair. I think it helps to put things out to a group, instead of one individual (a la Catholicism), for the purpose of showing others that we're all prone to “sins” and that nary a one of us is unique, regardless of the sin (especially regarding masturbation and sexuality!)

Thanks to Lol, Siona and Mary for your confessions. C'mon Balder!

Not sure what it was in my dream that I felt I needed to confess, though! Honestly, I've confessed all my sins to therapists over the years, at minimum, and my wife has heard it all. Most of them, at this point, seem to rank pretty low on the sin spectrum, so I would probably bore with the details.

Siona, your experience with using Buddhism in an attempt to throttle your fractured ego struck a chord. Not so much because I've done that myself (I did that with drugs, alcohol and other forms of self-mutilation in my late teens / early twenties), but because I wonder how many people get stuck there. Based on my experience, one cannot truly transcend the ego until it is healthy. Otherwise, shadowland abounds. Again, just my limited experience.

Perhaps that something that is begging to be confessed will unearth itself later!

On with the confessions…

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Some early Buddhist schools used to have a “group confession” ritual.  Perhaps some still do, but I have not been part of any sangha that actually practices this.  I expect it could be a good thing.  I have done “confession practice” as part of my Tibetan sadhana, however, but that is quite “safe” feeling because it is done in the privacy of my meditation.

I don't have any juicy Catholic stories to tell!  I wish I did.  I actually have never confessed to a priest.  I was raised in the Episcopal church, and later moved towards Catholicism on my own, but never completed catechism or confirmation in the Catholic faith.  At one time, in my late teens (I believe), I was interested in being a priest or monk, and began to talk to priests at various churches about this.  When I mentioned Thomas Merton as one of my inspirations, however, I noticed I became immediately suspect in many of the priests' eyes.  Being a theological/mystical heretic – and later, an apostate – is perhaps my biggest sin, in the Church's eyes.

When I was young, I used to rebel inwardly against forced piety.  I recall sitting in church and privately imagining all sorts of humorous, sacrilegious thoughts and images.  These thoughts and images often arose spontaneously, and sometimes they scared me when I was very young, because they were clearly products of my unconscious and were not under my control.  I wondered if God would get mad at me for such thoughts, but came before long to feel that he would compassionately understand unruly minds like mine and wouldn't hold it against me.  (Unfortunately, an Irish friend of my mother's wasn't graced with such an understanding image of God, and she was quite tormented by her rebellious, sacrilegious, sexually charged thoughts about Jesus.  When she confessed them to her parents, she was sent to a hospital and given electric shock treatment.  She has never fully recovered from that abusive intervention.)

There are a number of reasons I have sometimes jokingly remarked that I was probably a Catholic in my last life.  One is that I grew up with a kind of automatic shame and fear of masturbation, without ever being told (to my knowledge) that it was evil or bad or dangerous.  My distrust of it was such that, even when I touched myself, I would never allow myself to go through to climax.  So, it was embarrassing for me when, one day, when I was in my first year of high school, my mother asked me if I had ever masturbated or experienced orgasm.  I told her no and tried to sound offended.  She laughed and said, “Well, you should!  You need to know your body, so you'll be better prepared for being with a woman.”

I didn't really feel comfortable receiving permission to do this from my mother – I wanted to hear it from a male, but didn't have any males in my life who could or would talk to me about these things – but eventually I did allow the permission to sink in…and then was happy to have found an excellent new pasttime!  Guilty feelings about it didn't fully leave me, though, till I was in my twenties.

I'm trying to think if I have any current confessions to make, Father Lol.  My life is pretty boring and “clean” right now.  But not spotless!  I'll come up with something….

Here's a non-classical sin that I think I'm committing:  I am not living to my potential, holding myself back and not really entering the “world” in the ways that I desire.  I am settling for less, for the easiness and (apparent) comfort of inertia.

Bless me, Father Lol.  I'm a sinner!

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Balder, I can relate:
“Here's a non-classical sin that I think I'm committing:  I am not living to my potential, holding myself back and not really entering the “world” in the ways that I desire.  I am settling for less, for the easiness and (apparent) comfort of inertia.”

I'm sure that, while this may not be a classical sin, it is widespread and quite human. I tend to live to my potential in spurts (ugh, previous masturbation stories sending up crude images, LOL). We can't push the edges all the time; there has to be time for regrouping, resting, reflecting. Of course, that can become inertia, and I am currently witnessing that in my own life after intense growth over the last year+.

OK, here's the confession that I think was calling me this morning:

Stage setting: Yesterday I entered dharma gate of Soto Zen Buddhism by taking the bodhisattva precepts with 11 others in a wonderfully powerful ceremony in the midst of a sangha here in Portland.

Confession: There is only one precept that I really struggle with, in literal versus esoteric terms: Do not become intoxicated. On gross-level terms, this is stated as not using alcohol or drugs. In esoteric terms, it involves not engaging in activities that cloud or delude the mind. I'm stuck in gross-level terms, and I know there's a lot of conflict on this in some postmodern schools. The most relevant issue is that I am internally conflicted. I occasionally drink and use other substances (conservatively, not to excess, all natural plants, no powders), mostly to socialize, sometimes to access non-ordinary states of consciousness or to get a different perspective on some emotion or thinking that I'm stuck in.

The problem: Most of my peers use alcohol or substances in this way, my partner included. I am already in the challenging position of no longer being able to relate to the world in the same way that they do (and the same way I did until early last year). They are queer, post-conventional people that are largely rooted in green vMEME thinking/being. I lean towards turquoise most days. I fear that social connections, and my marriage, will be strained if I abstain from what is often a group activity. Already, they can't relate to much of my spiritual perspective. If I take this additional step, which I feel internally called to do on some days, it seems like I take a significant risk. I am not ready to move away from these relationships.

And there's the significant issue of taking the precepts yesterday. Talk about guilt! I know that's not the intention of taking the precepts; guilt does not help, especially if I choose to continue this behavior, even on a temporary basis. And my rational mind gets back to rationalizing: the esoteric meaning of the precept: not becoming deluded. I do significant work each day, each moment towards that end. Then there's also the notion that it is impossible to keep all the precepts, all the time.

Oh, sheesh. Mental masturbation, anyone?

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Colin, I have an idea that will maybe help you. (No promises but it's a thought.) When stuff like that has come up for me I have found it useful to take such things as opportunities to become demonstrably more aware of how difficult it is. So that “guilt” can also just sit -and maybe even be transmuted-into just pure awareness of something… awareness of how contrary the world and ordinary life is to these types of things, or they to the world and ordinary life, awareness of habits and so on that just simply were not so present in awareness as they are all of a sudden. Or sometimes, if not often, I have thought that that might just be the man point. It make you mind-full somehow …

Then again, maybe this is just another brilliant rational justification that comes from the influence of my brother! (See below …)

(Seriously, though, I do think that makes a difference.)

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Tim: Thanks for your suggestion. It helps to be reminded that, regardless of the nature of my chosen actions (or even actions that I feel I don't actively choose in some circumstances), the freedom comes with simply witnessing them as they are. Awareness. Yes, that is the point, isn't it?!  I'm still so new, I often forget.

I've been reflecting on this issue since I posted it yesterday. I was still feeling conflicted, but was not able to witness the conflict. Your post helped me flip a switch such that I am now sitting in awareness of the conflict, not sitting AS the conflict. Now I'll spend some time today sitting with the conflict as an object, not imbedded in it purely as subject.

I think this is spot-on in terms of the intentions of the precepts.

What's a Buddhist doing in a Catholic confessional, anyway! LOL
I always have been intrigued by Catholicism, though, and the elaborate rituals and supporting cast of holy objects, art, etc.

Loved your story about your young and brilliant brother! Seems the smart genes run in the family!

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Oh my son, hush now …. you're no sinner … though I admire your pluck for trying to come up with something that might earn you some Divine Redemption.

The enigma of not living to our potential, feeling like we're settling for less. Blessed be the honest householder and family man, for verily he shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

This is great! I love it!

Okay, here's my confession:

Despite the fact that I was raised Catholic, took my First Confession in 2^nd Grade, and went to confession on a regular basis as a part of my Catholic schooling … I have never actually made a real confession! It was fake every time!

Much like Mary's friend, I made it all up! All those years! However, I did learn a very useful technique from my brother …

Go into confession, make something up and then say that you did that one bad thing and then “lied once.” The one time that you lied was right now in the confessional! (oh my God my brother was brilliant even at about 8 years old! Never submit your will to authority! LOL)

There was not a time in my youth that I actually ever confessed anything real! But I went anyway as required and did my prescribed penitence of what was usually “one Our Father, three Hail Mary's, occasionally a Glory Be (now please recite the Act of Contrition).

Now, with that I will submit another, perhaps more meaningful confession: the day that I willfully decided for myself that I didn't have to go.

It was, I think, somewhere in 7^th Grade. My best friend was “not Catholic” and so he “didn't have to go.” We went to the church as usual and knew that I could easily escape notice, since the process took so long, by simply not going. (There was no specific account being taken.) And … I didn't. My “not Catholic” friend freaked out!

Friend: What are you doing! You have to go!

Me: No I don't. Why? You don't have to go.

Friend: But I'm not Catholic! You have to go! Oh man …

He was clearly disturbed (even though he was not too far from a juvenile delinquent on most days …) He simply could not believe it and in retrospect I see this as an early experience of different stages interacting. Even though he was not Catholic, nor raised particularly religious (but went to Catholic school because it was “a better education”) he still could not fathom nor process that I'd just broken the mythic law of God

And so that's my confession. I skipped that time, and I do not believe I have been back ever since. In addition, every other visit to the confessional was a sham.

All that said, however, I do think it's a valid and useful practice -even sacred in certain situations. And I, of course, love the idea of group confession too. (Think about how gloriously green that would be for the Church to adopt it!)

I do want to say one thing, however. It's funny. Right around the time I skipped mythic confession was when the very idea of sin before God became more and more serious to me. I owe some of that to my early spiritual experiences, some to my own efforts certainly, but I absolutely owe so much of any morality (which I hope it some!) that I have today to the wonderful ordered and constantly reinforced upbringing and education I was given. I am very thankful for that and would not change a thing.

All through Junior High we would say the Act of Contrition at the end of the school day. There is something about that regular ritual that has got to stick with you after a while. The idea … what did I do today that I maybe should not have? The idea that it is said everyday demonstrates that not a day goes by when I could have done just a little bit better.

Thus, I am sorry!

I'll be waiting for my penitence Fr. Lol!

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Just a general, generic confession. We all think we're doing the right, selfless thing when we're doing it, right? But we know we can't be doing the selfless thing 100% of the time, so just a general confession for all those times it wasn't quite selfless.

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Tim – That was hilarious! I've heard similar stories about kids having to “make up” sins to confess (I mean, how much sinning can you really do at age 8!!) – but this thing that your brother figured out, about making up something and then confessing that you “told a lie” – that is pure gold!!!

Tim: And I, of course, love the idea of group confession too. (Think about how gloriously green that would be for the Church to adopt it!)

–Actually in 1973 the Catholic Church, spurred by Vatican II, promulgated a revised penance ritual that included four distinct forms: the individual ritual (sacrament of reconciliation), a communal ritual with individual confessions and absolution, a communal ritual with general absolution (and a miniature version of this is included at every Mass now), and an emergency ritual to be used in cases of imminent death. So the church does have a bit of a green streak here and there.

I've only received the sacrament as an adult, and each time (for me it's usually once, at most twice a year) it has been a blessing. It's especially wonderful when you have found a mature, humble, compassionate “confessor” who knows you and who is skilled in spiritual direction (and who thus might offer guidance beyond the typical “five Our Fathers” penances), but it can be a graced ritual even when confessing to a stranger. There is something about articulating your admitted mistakes or wrong choices in the presence of a forgiving other that is liberating. And beyond any church rituals, perhaps our most honest and freeing confessions occur with trusted confidant(e)s ….

But oh thank you Father Lol for your kindness and sweet penances!

Mary

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

too funny..great thread

ya know…apologies if it was mentioned and i missed it…ive only browsed…
but historically, from what i understand, the confessional idea came from the idea of “lay confessors”
which was introduced to catholicism from a more celtic spirituality

the idea was that spiritual practice had a sense of being “soul friends”
which was rooted in the idea that any given person who had already “died” (or '2nd tier' if you will) was capable of being a “soul friend” for another, and hear their confessions

skillfull listening and skillful questions played a huge role
as well as end-of-life contexts

of course, the institutional church eventually corrupted the idea
they couldnt stop people from being “friends,” so they switched the game a bit, it seems

anyway…that's how i have come to understand it

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

“I'll be waiting for my penitence Fr. Lol!”

Tim, my son, I fear the Lord may yet still be waiting for your penitence. But fear not overly, my son, His mercy is indeed boundless.

I have been away ministering to my flock in the furthest reaches of our virtual parish. Last night the Lord visited me in a dream, in the form of a flaming dove, ablaze with light, and revealed to me your penance.

You are required to use properly the gift of your spiritual intelligence, bestowed upon you through Our Lord's infinite love and compassion, and lead your brother Colin into the True Way.

As a sign of your true penitence, you will exhort and inspire Colin to join with you on the steps of Capitol Hill, there to sing the Agnus Dei from Faure 's “Messe Basse”:

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Bless me father lol…………….I too have sinned…………..

And yes, I was raised Catholic too. I remember in ,my last year at school a group of us, all girls, went on a weekend retreat to a local convent. We weren't particularly devout, just at that age where any excuse for a parentless weekend is appealing. So off we all went to Newmains Convent, about 10 miles from home.

There were lots of sessions taken by the one nun, all about growing up and relationships, fairly predictably the “should you” or “should you wait” question was discussed a lot. Of course, I wanted this woman to explain WHY? Like if sex is about love, how do you love someone more just because they stuck a ring on your finger? WHY wouldn't you want to sleep together? WHY would it be sinful? WHY is it a big deal? WHy would God care?

I guess I must have asked WHY? once too often-I was summoned to a private meeting, asked about whether I had a boyfriend, how long I had been going out with him etc etc. We pursued the debate some more, I wasn't convinced by anything she said.

So I was invited (summoned) to another private meeting, this time with the priest. I had been discussed with him. So we had some wee chats about my potential future husband and the reasons I should “keep myself pure”…this went on for quite a long time.

Meeting no 3 was interesting. The pair of them had obviously got together, and I was called back to see them both. Time for the confrontation. Basically, the accusation was “We think you've done it” Yeah, course I had, as had most of friends hiding upstairs waiting to see if the roof was about to blow off, while they prayed piously and pretended innocence. So, Mary and lol , I was really bad. I lost my virginity on the 6th of January 1973 (Epiphany:-)
and for those of you who can't count, that was exactly 10 days before my 15th birthday.

Actually they were pretty cool, relieved I had only one partner, talked a bit about the risks of sleeping around, sensibly talked about the emotional risks of getting too involved in the kind of relationship you were maybe not mature enough to handle. They asked about contraception, i told them i was on the pill. They advised me to stay on it, they thought I'd have a much better future without a baby to take care of. Obvioulsy didn't think there was much point in locking the errr stable door at that stage :-)

I wish my mother had been as understanding. She found my appointment card for the Family planning clinic (I was working by this time)……that was the day i found out my mother knew all those swear words i thought she didn't, and she called me all of them. She then waved the half used pack at me, saying “And you must have been having a rare old time, look how many are gone!” I didn't think that was the time to explain how they were actually taken. Oh then she called my boyfriend on the phone and demanded to speak to his mother
(this terrible sin happened pretty regularly in her house as they went out every Saturday).
Fortunately, by this time he had also left school and was conveniently an apprentice electrician. The telephone in his house didn't receive any incoming calls for a week or two, after he disconnected a wire:-)

So I sinned, he sinned, (It was 8 days before his 16th birthday, so I guess I could have been done for statutory rape)and we had a house of sin, at least on Saturday nights.It was all young and giggly and full of fun and as far as I can see completely harmless. However, if you wish to pronounce my penance, father Lol, I will atone as best I can.

Liz

Liz

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Bless you my daughter, but on this day I simply do not feel worthy to mediate for our Lord and pronounce penance.

Today I woke up to a most unusual state of affairs. As I came into waking consciousness I was aware I was seeing things in an entirely different light, in fact through my half-closed eyes the light in the room did seem to have a greenish hue, something I just couldn't fathom, and my perspective on what is right and wrong no longer appeared to be so certain or so incontrovertible.

I did maybe have rather more green Chartreuse to drink last night than I ought, perhaps this has something to do with it, but if things continue as they are I fear I must do penance myself, and go into solitary retreat, spending the dark hours of the night in vigil before our Lord on the cross, begging his forgiveness for all the strange thoughts that have invaded my mind.

Please, my daughter, do pray hard for the salvation of this sinner's soul. And do say three Our Fathers and five Hail Marys for the safety of your own soul, just in case - there's no harm in erring on the side of caution, t'be sure. And if you can find a smidgeon of contrition for your earlier escapades that'd be even better.

In confusion,

Father Lol

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Dear father Lol,

It was not my intention to add to your confusion in these troubling matters, however that smidgeon of contrition is sadly lacking. You see, part of me thinks I had the measure of the whole messy business around that time (no pun intended) and it REALLY was not that big a deal. In fact rather than regret the simple clarity of that time, I suspect if I could return to it I'd be a happy camper. YOu see, now it would be a great -big-deal .

Of course if we'd had a proper youth club I would have played table tennis instead, but in a working class community life is such that one is thrown on one's own resources and expected to make one's own entertainment :-)

However I do appreciate your reaction was not one of shock and horror and I am so relieved not to have been condemned to eternal damnation straight off. 3 Our Fathers and 5 Hail Mary's seems like a reasonable precaution, the 3 to honour my Irish side (to be sure, to be sure, to be sure)

If you would permit me to comment though, it seems your own situation was very similar, it is all a question of dealing with whatever resources are at hand, in whatever situation you find yourself. It is very unfortunate that your enterprising spirit was not recognised and appropriately honoured. How we are shaped by those around us………

Rather than a solitary vigil, dear Father Lol, I suggest you share that vigil and use the time err…more productively. You may be very tired by morning, but you will be able to rest, knowing that green aura has been cast aside. I will pray for blinding light and the moving of the earth for you

Liz 

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Fr. Lol, in the spirit of contrition and in honor of your vision, I am curious about this, but unsure of my part. Waiting, I suppose, is my next step.

Betwixt and between, these roles are splayed and lay exposed for all to see…

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

My dear son, it is surely I who have erred. Even though today my mind does not seem to be my own, I cannot but see that it was my own hubris that urged our brother Tim to inspire you into joining with him on the steps of the Capitol to sing the Agnus Dei.

Who am I to think that someone such as yourself, who isn't bound by the One True Faith … oh my God, what am I saying? …  …. forgive me Lord, I know no longer what I am doing … or saying …. by Thor's hammer I will see this through …. where was I? .. oh yes, when I was thinking of you and what I'd asked brother Tim to try and get you to do, I remembered that old joke that I never used to be able to see any humour in at all, the one about the Catholics living in a small part of Heaven surrounded by a high wall because they thought they were the only ones there … well, this morning, when I remembered it I laughed til I cried. And then I cried til I ended up laughing. I don't know what is happening to me, my son. Perhaps I should join you in the Zen hall and gaze at the space in front of the wall until things become clearer.

Father Lol

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Alright, now I am confused!

I am going to go back and read this thread again, and then read the message you sent to me Lol to try and make sense of it all. (Part of it has to do< I think, in part, with the fact that i don't know you quite well enough Lol, to understand exactly where you're generally coming from in this scant cyber-world of a community. But anyway …)

However, at first blush, I do think this is interesting. Somehow, this confessional has brought about some kind of transformation in YOU. I see this as a sort of hitherto unrecognized truth -at least from an amber standpoint and certainly a strictly amber Catholic standpoint. That truth, basically, priesthood is for the priest! far more than it could ever be for the congregation! Somewhere in here is a wonderful miracle of agency in communion (and capitalize that if you want).

There's even a Pollyanna type truth here too: the minister transformed by the congregation rather than the other way around.

Though I still do not believe I have a full handle on what exactly is going on here, I will say one more thing.

Lol, I would err to the side of (actually, just as you said) some kind of a profound Subtle recognition that occurred. I know what it is too. I've been there … In fact we are all there now, we just don't normally notice it.

There is a reason St. Theresa practiced self-mortification regularly despite by all other accounts being one the most wonderful and Good people imaginable.

Somewhere on the Subtle … . I'm not even going to describe it, at least not just now. But what I will say is that somewhere on (in) the Subtle, … well, some Truth about what we in the West and particularly because of Catholicism call Sin, indeed becomes revealed …

 … and it's bad too. Lord God, it's bad.

Why? Here is my take on it.

Because what is beyond that on the Subtle, the very fabric of this universe (in that regard) is so utterly Innocent, and so utterly Loving and so utterly Humbly Loving and Innocent and Embracing (of All) and so, so, so … I'm out of words …

 … that our very best efforts here on the gross physical frontal egoic realm just could never, ever, ever, measure … and because we recognize that this is an aspect of our True Nature (in whatever way, however it is interpreted) … all we can be is sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry … and despite our sorrow, we still will never be able to wipe away the sin …

I want to share that I recognized this with the simplest act I once “committed” of trying to “help” someone … (it was theoretical-spiritual, etc.) … and I suddenly saw the EGOITY of it all … the pure and utter heartless RAPE  of it all … Who in the WORLD did I think I was trying to “teach” somebody anything!? … It was so obvious that I forced it on this person -although, just like Liz said above … by all other accounts, most people would have said “You're a great good person! You didn't do anything wrong! You're a nice guy!”

There is a reason St. Theresa practiced self-mortification despite by all other accounts being such an outstanding person …

So, does any of this ring true to you at this point?

Hoping I am not once again raping the utter Innocence of the Universe … although it's probably true, unfortunately, that I am. (And so Mother/Father, forgive me!)

Oh well! Causal Emptiness solves all these problems anyway! :-)


In Peace,

Fr. Tim

(Yes, I do believe that I was a priest - in a previous life.    … Which might in part be why I have so many kids in this one! Baby-making is fun!!!:-0 )

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Fr. Tim!

You surely have arrived in the nick of time!

I've been given an extended leave of absence as I no longer felt I could carry out my pastoral duties with any integrity.

I have recommended to the Father Superior that you be allowed to shepherd this virtual flock, caring well for their souls. You do seem to be emminently qualified and to possess the requisite missionary zeal.

I'd like to thank you, my erstwhile parishioners, for all your support and advice, but most of all for your good humour.

Spiritus vobiscum

Lol

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Was? You're leaving us, Father Lol? Adrift in a sea of muddy Nile waters and uncertainty?

Hrrmph!

Before you retire, I just wanted to say, Bless me, Father, and I'll bless you.

That's all.

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Blessings, sister.

May you be free from suffering and the causes of suffering – even if growing pains are another matter :)

May you experience abundant love, joy and happiness in your life, and be a cause of that in others.

May you be finally, finally free.

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Fr. Tim!

You surely have arrived in the nick of time!

I've been given an extended leave of absence as I no longer felt I could carry out my pastoral duties with any integrity.

I have recommended to the Father Superior that you be allowed to shepherd this virtual flock, caring well for their souls. You do seem to be emminently qualified and to possess the requisite missionary zeal.

I'd like to thank you, my erstwhile parishioners, for all your support and advice, but most of all for your good humour.

Spiritus vobiscum

Lol



 

Well, … okay. I'll hear confessions in your stead Fr. Lol.

But I do hope you return soon and rest well in your leave. Our prayers and well wishes will always be with you.

So, … My dearest fellow parishioners. In remembrance of the good spirit and pure and worthy heart of Fr. Lol, and by directive of the Father Superior, I humbly offer myself to your service …

In the Name of the Father, the Mother, the Son and the Holy Ghost, …

The confessional door is always opened …


Fr. Tim



PS I actually do have further thoughts (perhaps of absolution) for both Colin and Liz

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

PS I actually do have further thoughts (perhaps of absolution) for both Colin and Liz

Yes, Father?

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Tim.
Please share those thoughts.

LOL, I have never told that story before, not in its entirety at any rate. If it (or I) caused any distress, it wasn't intended.

Please don't disappear on us

Liz

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

My dear Liz

Sitting in an internet cafe in my new gear – denim jacket, ''Be The Change You Want To See In The World'' t-shirt and torn 501s, all from the charity shop – I think taking leave of absence was merely the first step, and that I've actually hung up my cassock for good. Yay!

Far from causing me distress, your confession made me realise how much I'd been filtering the dark roast of life through too thick a filter paper — none of the rich flavour was making it through.

I've also come to see that my early vocation, nobly naive as it might have been, was more about living out my parents' unconscious dream than any vision of my own. It's not that I didn't or still don't have a vocation …. it just got a little side-tracked and ended up in a cul-de-sac, that's all.

So my mission now is to experience all I've been missing out on, the awesome diversity of life on the other side of the gauze …. have started by doing an 'Internal Alchemy' qi gong retreat and got some juicey jing zinging around …. might just go and have myself one of those Integral Satoris now.

Will call in from elsewhere on my travels …. love and peace to you, sister,

ex-Father Lol

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Wow, father lol just got trendy:-)

Should you find yourself on home turf shout, I'd be happy to buy you lunch wearing either cassock or denim, and if we split the distance it shouldn''t be unmanageable.

Of course I'm a staid old lady now and much more reserved, but I do still eat lunch:-)

You know, what you said struck such a chord. I had to have a big church wedding because my parents didn't-my father turned catholic to marry my mother, so his father forbade the family to attend. My dad was one of 9 kids, so that was a lot of family missing. So they had a wee tea in my gran's house.

At both their ruby and golden wedding celebrations we made a big hoo haa with cake and flowers and stuff. My dad cried when they brought the cake out at their golden a few weeks back, he feels responsible they never had the day they should have.

And what is behind it all? Well, my mother's older sister was pregnant when she married, but to cover it up they had the whole event and a premature baby…that's what it was like 50 odd years ago. My mother was, apparently, as pure as the driven snow, and feels she was downgraded………long standing family dynamics where my mums sister was always the one who could fall in the Clyde and come out with a trout in her pocket. But she always carried the 2 scenes in her head and assumed people wuld reach the opposite conclusion, that she married under a cloud. God it's awful how this stuff travels whole lifetimes with people…….

Sex, guilt, Catholicism, among us, just here in this forum, we could write a book

Love and good luck to you on your journey lol, if you are passing anywhere near, don't be a stranger

Liz

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Dear lol,

Maybe there is something in the air apart from Spring. Time for renewal and all that. On a whim I have made a late booking for weekend retreat at Samye Ling, this will be my first retreat apart from that one with the nuns.

I'm off in about an hour, also to immerse myself in the things I have missed. None of us has the whole jigsaw.

Liz

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Boy, I'm a bad confessor. I said I'd get back t y'all and never did! Forgive me!

But I've got just a tiny bit of time here so let's see if I can get out a few thoughts.

Colin. What I wanted to say -and I'll try and state this as briefly as possible- was that a good deal of your entire moral dilemma there seems to me to clearly have to do with your awareness of holons and your own holonic nature. Meaning, your vows and aspirations or whatever may be whole unto themselves, as you are, but you and those vows and aspirations are also inevitably a part of the others around you. It just seems to me like you realize that you can not do anything without affecting them also -and that's a good thing! Or, in other words, it strikes me as very turquoise.

The thoughts I had on that, again, as quickly and briefly as possible, were of course that, one, that's a good thing, but more importantly, two - these vows and precepts were not created in that context. If anything, they were created with a very different context in mind. A context where, first, those relationships did not matter in the face of aspiration, etc., -or maybe better said, they just were NOT considered in that way (because awareness of the holonic nature of self and others was nowhere to be found)-and secondly, chances are in the context they were first created in, those relationships would have, if anything, simply revered you for your direction (i.e. aspiration, vows, etc.)

I think there is indeed, as you said, controversy over all that in certain circles for just that reason, although it's probably interpreted more from a green worldview/context. Either way, well, it just ain't all your fault. But then from there, I think the important thing is to attempt to honor your turquoise sensitive, be as conscious and aware of that and all it creates in this situation, and attempt to go from there as consciously and with as much “in the moment,” now, awareness as possible. Seek the turquoise dharma in the matter, even though, well, you may still be largely left to your own resources. (But, hey, that's a good thing too in a lot of ways. Whatever answer there is going to found within you, so, well, just keep looking that direction.)

But I guess the summation is that I don't want you to be feeling any unnecessary guilt about how you have to handle all this. ( and I do think “have to” is the right way to put it. No, you should not just chuck all those relationships! Not good thing, just as your awareness tell you. Other may say otherwise. But I think your instincts are correct -and even more noble. No? Relationships-which means holons-is going to be a big issue for spirituality and aspiration in an Integral world.) Make every effort to attempt to differentiate what might be Authentic in the situation, and what might just be a construct of the conflicting contexts of the whole thing, and whatever that might cause to arise in your mind that maybe isn't all that useful.

Okay, gave it a shot! (I'll certainly be interested in a continued conversation, but that's just all I can “spit out” in a bit of a rush here. J )

Liz, … well, this is easily much more complicated. I admit it, I suppose one of my efforts here as a stand in confessor is to attempt to eliminate as much -as I said above -unnecessary guilt as possible.

You yourself mentioned the differing contexts and I think that's worth looking into a bit more. We are talking about you, but it is certainly a different “past” you in a very different context and with a very different worldview and even tools available to construct on available. What I think I am trying to say with all that is something in the direction of … (I'll try my best here) … that teenager is just fine with it all, and, I think that's okay. I sense an orange teen that really could take care of and responsibility for herself. (The whole matter of teen sex is so complicated anyway. There are biological issues to be considered, cultural-indeed, the set up of modern western culture over the last few hundred years, or even much less, does add some never before relevant considerations. Even women's liberation from a modern perspective changes the whole thing. Prior to that, well, they'd have just married you off in response to those biological realities.) Okay, anyway, …

However, I sense that it's the mother/much-wiser-adult that feels the distress. And? I can't really argue with you. As a parent facing teens soon! … I don't know that we have fully comfortable answers -and certainly the more comfortable is to desire that “teen” and “sex” are two words that never have to go together.

I do think there can be some kind of, maybe, better, healthier, more comfortable Integration of these “two selves” of yours. Wilber, mostly in notes in say, Integral Psychology and other books, talks about the “distal self.” That is the past self. The most thorough integration of the distal self(s) and the present self is always the best scenario. I don't know what you might find there, but I do have confidence that the two selves can find a newly comfortable, generally guilt free, relational balance. (I don't know, maybe some new “befriending” is in order? Maybe you even “talk” to her like she is your daughter? Cover all the issues, etc. That works in real life, maybe it will in such a matter in interior life. J  Oh, boy, and now that I think of it … your own mother is a part of your “mother” now …and her reaction -and where she may have been right, as well as wrong and too harsh and whatever-is part of what troubles you. Right? I wonder if there are not several birds that could be killed and better reintegrated with “one stone.” GOD, I hope I'm not being too personal here! PLEASE Forgive me if I am. But Mom and Dad leave their “scripts” on us, for better or for worse. It's up to us to make tem good ones, the most balnced, correct, right and healthy ones. This is actually quite fascinating … crap, what do I need to do!?)

Anyhow, two more thoughts. One, I really do think the folks who “got this out of you” deserve some decent credit. Indeed, they could have been MUCH harder on you and there are certainly lots of stories that I know in similr contexts that did not turn out so well.

And lastly, for whatever it's worth,coming from someone who's a bit younger than you, and from someone who has spent a lot of time around the youth of the generations after me … You're story is nothing! HA. They would laugh at you for being so innocent! Terrible sad, but terribly, terribly- T E R R I B L Y true! Trust me on that …

Peace, hope to have … helped or done something … Tim

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Tim,

Thanks for coming back to this thread! I appreciate your perspective on my “issue” and it resonates quite well with my take on it. I hadn't tacked the word “holonic” onto the relational aspect of vows, though, and that has most certainly helped me get it at a deeper level.

What have I done with my role in this issue? Well, I haven't made any hard and fast rules, and I haven't changed any of my relationships. I am blessed/cursed with the ability to either be fully present in an “awakened awareness” way relatively frequently, even if it's while tasting some hot sake in my mouth in the context of the aforementioned relationships. When I am not holding such awareness in any given moment, I am able to reflect on my thought stream or emotions, if relevant, rather quickly after the fact.

Blessing: THIS is reality, baby!
Curse: God, it gets tiring sometimes and I just want to “turn it off!”

I'm guessing that, at some point on the spiral towards enlightenment or Christ Consciousness, this becomes more effortless. Sometimes I feel that open spaciousness, but more often than not, it's work to build up this new muscle!

Thanks again, Tim.

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Edit: I thought my previous post was lost, so I recreated it. But it wasn't, so now I'm in edit mode…

One thing that is profoundly different than my previous selves, though, is that, when I do use substances, it is very consciously, infrequently, and in amounts that used to elicit the comment: What's the point? I'm just so darn sensitive to things I ingest now, including caffeine and sugar.

It's all about balance!

Re: Confessions of a seminarian ... pss, the confessional is this

Thank you Tim, I think you may have missed your vocation:-)

Your insights as always are deep and valued, it has taken me a couple of days to think through what you said.

My distal self….mmm, the young woman who was prepared to love freely and unashamedly, no I feel no shame or anything unhealthy there at all. If I had I wouldn't have told the story. I think if there is  a marker in the road for me here, it's that the adult me is willing to own and acknowledge her now. I have spent years pretending to myself I don't really care what people think of me, when, in reality I have probably been afraid of exposing bits of myself, the bits where I risk challenging people's views of who they think I am. Am I afraid of being judged? Probably, it certainly looks that way. 

So to the credits
Well the “people who got it out of me” as you so nicely put it, were not the people at the time. I do appreciate they could have been much harder and lol's story made me see just how damaging that could have been, so I am very lucky in that respect. 

I also felt I had to tll the story for another reason. I left my Catholicism behind a long time ago, around that time. There was no place in my life for a patriarchal organisation where my role was predefined, I didn't fit there, even at 15. I think with hindsight your observation of being in orange at that time is spot on, and with it came a hearty rejection of blue conformity. It wasn't that I didn't have ethics, or standards, or morals, I just know I had to work out for me what they would be. Something could never be “right” for me just because someone else told me it should, no matter how much authority or experience they brought with them.

I don't think I'll ever go back to Catholicism, or Christianity in any form, it simply doesn't hold enough meaning for me, but I do recognise these days how much it shaped who I am and there is a treasure trove of precious things in that tradition. The integration of my catholic upbringing has probably taken more work thatn that generally pretty happy teenager ever needed. As an organisation I distrust what they teach young people about sex and relationships, kids hear the “no contraception” bit and are so afraid of being caught with supplies they risk unsafe sex. there is nothing in the world any organisation or teaching can do about teenage hormones, in my view.

But yes, i was treated kindly and with a level of undertanding the Church generally doesn't get credit for and I want to acknowledge that. 

So for me, the people who “got it out of me” are the people like you, Colin, mary, lol, the people who come here with such openess and create an environment where this stuff can see the light of day and be poked around a bit. I think some decent credit is due there too. You won't remember me when I first arrived at IN….. I remember people like leela, one of the most gentle souls I have ever known, being so careful not to smash doen the big wall I couldn't even see I had around me, leaving me space to build trust and open in my own time.

That has been the real gift of the Integral Community for me. It has changed me, I am more open, more vulnerable in many ways, but I do believe that has made me more, not less and i wouldn't choose to have it any other way. 

So thanks again for your thoughts, and your sensitivity in how you articulated them, it helped me clarify things for myself too

kiss the baby for me
love
Liz