Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Who's worked with the Big Mind process?  Please comment on what you think of this technique, how well it worked (or didn't) for you, etc.  Also, has anyone read Genpo Roshi's new book Big Mind/Big Heart?  Here is a relevant entry from Ken Wilber's blog:

Ken's Foreword to Big Mind/Big Heart by Genpo Roshi
February 04, 2007 13:56

Foreword to Big Mind/Big Heart by Genpo Roshi

Let me state this as strongly as I can: the Big Mind Process (founded by Dennis Genpo Merzel Roshi) is arguably the most important and original discovery in the last two centuries of Buddhism.  It is an astonishingly original, profound, and effective path for waking up, or seeing one’s True Nature.  It is such a simple and universal practice it can be used in any spiritual path you wish, or even just alone, by itself, as a practice for realizing your True Nature—which you can call God, Allah, Jahweh, Brahman, Tao, Ein Sof—it doesn’t really matter, because the core of the Big Mind Process is Emptiness itself, which, having no specific content at all, can and does embrace anything that arises, integrating it all.  What Dennis Genpo Roshi has done is not only the most original discovery in Buddhism in the last two centuries, it is unbelievably simple, quick, and effective.  In Zen, this realization of one’s True Nature, or Ultimate Reality, is called kensho or satori (“seeing into one’s True Nature,” or discovering Big Mind and Big Heart).  It often takes five years or more of extremely difficult practice (I know, I’ve done it) in order for a profound satori to occur.  With the Big Mind Process, a genuine kensho can occur in about an hour—seriously.  Once you get it, you can do it virtually any time you wish, and almost instantaneously.  It is nothing less than the discovery of your True and Unique Self, Ultimately Reality, the Ground of All Being—again, call it what you like, for “they call it Many which is really One.”

But Genpo didn’t work merely with Buddhism.  He took some of the central discoveries of Western psychology—particularly Voice Dialogue and subpersonalities—and found an astonishingly effective way to integrate the best of the East (or simply the best of the contemplative traditions)—which is finding one’s True Nature and Infinite Self or Infinite-Empty Consciousness—Big Mind itself—satori itself!—and then integrate that with some of the best of the West (namely, working not with infinite Reality but with finite reality and with finite selves, helping to make them conscious and then healed and wholed).  The wondrous part is that he then found an easy and effective way to integrate the Infinite and the finite selves (again, using the overall Big Mind/Big Heart Process). 

Big Mind Process works with your own mind, with your states of consciousness, just as they are now.  What you don’t know, if you haven’t had a satori or awakening of some sort, is that right now, reading this page, is Big Mind, or God, or Spirit.  And it is so close and so obvious that you can’t see it.  But Genpo, in this book (which is a simple handbook of how to do Big Mind/Big Heart practice yourself), will show you that part of your own awareness, right now, which is already enlightened, already one with Spirit, already fully awakened.  And once you spot that, an entirely different world opens for you.  The book you have in your hands right now will, I can almost guarantee it, open your mind’s eye and show you how, in this very instant, Spirit is fully and completely present, looking through your eyes, listening with your ears, holding this book in its hands: right now!  And it always has been, but it was too close to see, too obvious to notice, too simple to believe.  This extraordinary discovery awaits you in this book.

(We at Integral Institute have found this process to be so effective and profound, that we have made it a central part of our programs, seminars, and Integral Life Practice.  You can see videos of Genpo doing this process, and leading you through it completely, at Integral Naked at www.integralinstitute.org.  You can also find these types of videos on Genpo’s own website, BigMind.org.  We have found the process to be around 97% effective, and that is why I feel comfortable promising, or darn close to promising, that by the time you finish reading this book, you will be among the enlightened ones, even if with beginner’s eyes.  Of course, this initial—but very strong—insight or kensho can be infinitely deepened if you want, and Genpo gives simple instructions for how to continue meditating to deepen this awakening.  But awaken you will, I truly believe.) 

Genpo did not include developmental psychology in this integration of the best of the East and West, and for a reason: it simply does not matter what stage of development you are at in order to do Big Mind Process.  It works at virtually any major stage of development—whether you are at magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic, integral, or super-integral: any stage can do Big Mind and awaken to the ever-present, all-pervading, infinite Reality of All Being (again, name it as you wish).  But, if you want, you can study how these stages mesh with the states of Big Mind: Genpo Roshi is a founding member of Integral Spiritual Center (at Integral Institute), and has been instrumental in studying ways to fit together stages of consciousness with states of consciousness.  Again, his work can be found at IntegralSpiritualCenter.org, and at his own website BigMind.org. And you can find all of this in a book that I happened to author, called Integral Spirituality.

But start here, with this book, and this simple but profound process, and be prepared to find your own True Self, possibly for the first time, but joyous in any event.  And you will learn to integrate the finite or dualistic selves (the skeptic, the controller, the victim, the damaged child, the angry mind, the seeking mind, etc.) with the Infinite or Non-dual Self in its many displays (Big Mind, Big Heart, Integrated Feminine/Masculine, Great Joy, Great Gratitude, Integrated Free-Functioning—the Ultimate Goal).  A genuine taste of all of this awaits your reading pleasure, my friend, and I am happy and hopeful for you that you will simply relax the mind, rest in the present, let your consciousness go free, for it has no walls—and then read this book, or simply let it soak into you, let the words wash through you, and soon enough, that “you” will be “YOU”—which is to say, I AMness, your own True, Infinite, and Eternal Nature: “before Abraham was, I AM.”  This book is truly a handbook of Awakening to I AMness, which is already looking out of your eyes right now. 

I am adding my own blessings to these wonderful words of awakening that this book contains, and may the merit of all of this be dedicated to sentient beings everywhere, that they too may wake up and discover who, and what, they really are.  In that awakening, suffering can find no purchase; in that enlightenment, hatred and anger can find no home; gratitude and joy inexplicably arise in their place, dancing wildly in the deepest clarity and most astonishing thankfulness, all of which together provide an endless fountain of awakened joy, happiness, compassion, and wisdom, pouring out of your mind and your heart (now your Big Mind and Big Heart), and into the world in a gushing and uncontrollably overflowing superabundance of radiance, release, bliss, luminosity, celebration, and joy.

Now look at me, my friend, and listen, please, I’m truly serious: isn’t it time for you to wake up?  How long have you been lost in this dream?  Can’t you feel the wisdom holders shaking you, saying, “Wake up, please, this is just a dream!”  You know this, don’t you?  You know that in the deepest part of your being, you can wake up, don’t you?  You have been searching for how long now?  Well, it is time for the Great Search to end.  As long as you are searching, you are looking for a future moment that will be better than this moment, but it is this moment that holds the entire key: why are you running away from your own awakening? 

So stop searching, take a breath, and start reading this manual for Awakening to the present moment, and I think you will never be able to look back.  And then, if you and I ever meet, we will know each other, won’t we?  With a twinkle in your eye, a slight smile on your face, a radiance in your heart, you and I will look into the eyes of each other and see the one and only Self, Big Mind, Big Heart, and the days and nights of the endless search will have lost its dreadfully painful meaning.  

Ken Wilber

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey Arthur,

In case you missed it, there was some discussion last week about BigMind on another thread.

You’ve done an amazing job with this forum, by the way.

–Bob

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hi Arthur, Hi Bob…. and others!

I wanted to respond to this as I did BM/BH this weekend using the ILP dvd.  I have gone through the process two times before using the INaked segments and the Big Mind dvd (produced by Big Mind).  I actually view each one of these as very different experiences since Genpo guides and allows the process to unfold differently, especially in relationship to the audience.

I did read the previous thread in the Chapel  and will direct some of my comments towards the flow of that thread.

I have found the process very helpful and interesting.  I have been a “bit” surprised at KW and others description at how 'rocking' this is, but then again, I hesitate in labeling anything that… including Integral.   To me in always sounds like Hype, because one persons 4th wheel is another persons fanaticism is another person's brand….  I also think it can encourage too many to hold on tightly, taut its accolades and crystallize it into hardness.

What I like about BM/BH….. (as a sidenote, I love that they are now calling it Big Mind/Big Heart as well! that deserves a big hooray in my book!)  is that it helps mark a path to transcendent states …. one of many paths in my view.  I also love that the process honors ones interior and its facets and acknowledges how they can and do work together (in harmony or not) and that they don't need to be destroyed, altered or disowned.  It isn't the parts themselves that are the trouble but perhaps the relationships between them that are the challenge.  I also think that is a wonderful experience of transcend and include.

Perhaps I hold my expectations more lightly….. perhaps I suspend judgment on whether it is so rehearsed:  “let me talk to the protector.”    “now what do you do?”     “protect.” 
In my view, it is another process that helps excavate and examine what is already available.  You know on my journey, I will cross (hopefully) a diverse terrain and I want to be able to have access and skill with a variety of thinking patterns, views, tools, relationships, physical abilities, fortitude and grace.

Regarding the enlightened experience…. I didn't hear a promise for such.  And besides, can't a transcendent experience have a different texture for each person ( with similarities)?  Someone's peak experience may not even register on another's radar….. 

Again, I am happy to have Genpo teaching BM/BH.  I think it has incredible value for many at some point on their path.  It has brought me a number of treasures which I am grateful for receiving. 

Walking the path, arms open, touching lightly, breathing deeply, returning the gifts
~ Stacy

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Bob: “You’ve done an amazing job with this forum, by the way.”

Thanks, Bob. :)

Bob: “In case you missed it, there was some discussion last week about BigMind on another thread.

Great! I love it when people cross-link to related discussions; I did indeed miss that - I'm happy to report that this pod is way too busy for me to easily keep up with these days.

I'm going to copy those posts from the other thread, then we can continue on here. (My kingdom for a “merge threads” function.)

Bob said Mar 8, 9:18 AM:

The blogmeister known as Dashh linked to a scathing critique of Genpo Roshi’s Big Mind process. Check it out.

C4Chaos is also talking about it.

I think this fits in somewhere with the discussion about snake-oil, easy-bake routes to a false sense of enlightenment. Here’s my take:

I tried Big Mind via the videos on Integral Naked. Not only did it leave me cold, but it also left me scratching my head. When you get a bunch of people together and the vibe is right, I don’t think it matters much what you do. People will get a “big hit” from the love in the room, whether they’re doing Big Mind or the Hokey Pokey. Not that all activities or practices will inspire or amplify the love vibe to the same degree. I just think too much emphasis is given to technique sometimes, whether we’re talking schools of psychotherapy or spiritual practices. I’ve not been to a live Big Mind event, but I suspect too much credit is given to the Big Mind process and not enough to the energy of expectation, anticipation, hope and love that people share with each other when they gather for a spiritual experience.

Also, the BM process just doesn’t make sense to me. Simply saying, “Let me speak to Non-Grasping Mind” or “Big Heart” or whatever, and having me shift in my seat and act out my idea of what that means—doesn’t that just reinforce whatever concept I have of those terms? Wouldn’t everyone in the room have a completely different idea of what those terms mean? Shit, if I knew what the experience of “Big Mind” or “Big Heart” really felt like and I could tap into these places on command, then I would already be enlightened (and fully realize it). I don’t know, maybe it’s just “The Skeptic” talking.

–Bob

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Jane said Mar 8, 9:28 AM:

I remember sitting through all the big mind sessions too a year ago, bored, and wondering what the deal was…… sort of like baking a cake without the ingredients, I thought. It is certainly appears to be a far cry from the bodywork, group work sessions that I have had with Robert Masters…which are emotive and messy, and often transformational in a deep, deep sense. Getting to the ‘witness’……I don’t think this is a class room event that happens by changing the position in our seat. I think it happens in the very mud of the mud….
Jane

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MaryW said Mar 8, 12:55 PM:



I'm appreciating your observations, you guys.

The Big Mind videos and audios on Integral Naked did nothing for me.

When I went through a “mini” (2-3 hours long) Big Mind at an I-WET (Integral Weekend Experiential Training program), facilitated by Diane Hamilton, it felt like a learning experience. That is, I participated and listened to others, and got to hear a wide variety of perspectives and “takes” on “controlling mind,” “seeking mind,” “desiring mind,” “big heart,” etc. But it did not result in a “kensho” for me, or evoke any kind of noticeable state-change. (For many others, it did. Some people said the walls in the room became transparent!)

When Genpo was in my area about a year ago, he gave another “mini” Big Mind, and again for me, it was basically a learning experience in “voice dynamics.” I enjoyed watching Genpo in action and hearing people's responses to his prompts, but many, perhaps most, of the people there had already been through Big Mind several times, and the responses became predictable. At the same time, I sensed the spiritual warmth and general “good vibes” of people gathered together for mutual exploration and a certain kind of “communion.” So again: a pleasant time, but no epiphany/kensho for me.

In contrast to these (admittedly limited) experiences, I've been on silent contemplative retreats in which I've shifted into a different state of consciousness for several hours or days at a time. And like Jane, I've been through sessions with RAM that brought me into my body in a completely unexpected way. On the other hand, I'm a church-goer, and although I have had some amazing-grace encounters in church, they certainly don't happen every Sunday, lol! And the first few times I tried centering prayer, nothing seemed to really “happen.”

I wonder if the longer and more intensive “Big Mind” retreats might yield different effects? Or if repeated expeditions into the Big Mind process make a difference?

Mary
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Balder said Mar 8, 1:47 PM:

Thanks for posting this, Bob. I've also been somewhat skeptical of the Big Mind process, but have been holding off my reservations until I've had a chance to experience it. I have listened to some experiential sessions on Integral Naked, but like others here, these brief voice dialogue exercises didn't really do anything for me. At least, they didn't give me kensho.


The blog post you linked was scathing but not substantive enough for my tastes. His basic message was, “It can't be so easy. Don't trust people who promise easy enlightenment.” I'd like to hear a more reasoned argument about the flaws with the process itself.


From my perspective, I'm skeptical about engaging in a process which primarily encourages discursive thinking as a means to really, meaningfully contacting something other than a surface interpretive structure. I do believe it is possible to use just about any human faculty in the service of awakening, or as a means of direct “pointing out,” but it seems to me that for the process Genpo is using to be truly lasting and effective, the audience would have to be fairly “ripe” already. Otherwise you run the risk of encouraging a rather sloppy translative spirituality.

Which can bring in the moolah, but may lead practitioners astray.

(I think Stuart Davis' claim that the Big Mind Process is the “fourth turning of the Wheel of the Dharma” is pretty over the top, especially at this early stage of the game. That kind of talk – apparently quietly endorsed by Wilber – is irresponsible.)

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Michael said Mar 8, 2:16 PM:

Bob, Balder,

In a darshan once with Gurumayi some years ago, she was discussing the paths to liberation, or moksha. She said that there were really only two routes: 1) the balanced and persistent study, service, devotion, and meditation track, and 2) the far simpler, just-drop-any-illusion-that-you-are-not-already-enlightened track. After a brief, somewhat dramatic pause, she said, route one was far, far easier.

I really took that to heart and have passed ye old hairy eyeball over anything that promises a shortcut to liberation ever since.

best,
Michael

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Patrick said Mar 8, 2:49 PM: I'm probably the worst big mind student ever!

I bought ILP kit and watched the videos. I was all exited and when I started to watch big mind I stopped after 20 minutes…. The way the guy talks to the audience, the promise of quick enlightenment which he voices, the way the audience responds in a semi hypnotic way freaked me out! Plus the talk with the sub-personalities is just nothing new: the list of psychotherapeutical models who've used it is long!

I thought to myself that it was I-I an KW's way to create kind of a heart practice which includes, shadow work and meditation. Although I'm eager to read all of Wilber's book, I do not follow him on that one.

KW stays for me a deep and profound philosopher who has integrated much material in a comprehensive map (which has to be debated), but when he tries to provide techniques…well I really find it weak.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna say the same thing about the 3-2-1 process. If people think they can clean their shadow simply using a 3-2-1 process! This is all to quick for me, and I think shadow work is a long process…that never ends and that needs more than that.

Basically I think this ILP kit is total crap…

On another level, Following Balder's pod on TSK, I got the book and started practicing it and for me , that seem a profound practice.

Now to follow those threads I need to watch this Big Mind video till the end (Oh no!) and I think I have to see this secret movie (which after seeing the apalling trailer I didn't felt like seeing!), or I'll be lost in the conversation!

Patrick

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Keith said Mar 8, 2:54 PM:

I was interested enough to buy the DVD from Kanzeon Zen Center. I found myself not able to play along, though I really did go through the whole process and watched the whole video with undivided attention and effort. I don't know what was supposed to happen for those on the video, but according to claims, it is “97% effective” in producing a kensho experience, or satori, or wharever. I wonder if it may be more like only 3% of people are willing to say “nothing happened to me.” Is there some risk in making claims to a methods certainty, so that when one doesn't experience the results, there is embarrassment and unwillingness to be honest about it? Or, if one doesn't get results, but there were 97% likely to, does that mean they interpret whatever miniscule realizations they might have had as being more than what it is?

Keith

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Eugene said Mar 8, 4:00 PM:

On the other hand does a Kensho experience really have to be extravagent to be a Kensho experience?

Personally I found the Big Mind experience effective, although short lasting(I've only done it once so far).

It says in the ILP kit that it should be tried at least 3 times to really get a good feel of it, it might be worth another shot.

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That's everything from the other thread; I've now locked the other thread and conversation can continue on from here. :)

r.thor@your-service.ca

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Very well put Stacy.  I think BM/BH and any alternate approach to inner presence or that connection with being is ultimately a great, great thing.  So long as the intellectual market is not saturated with 'rubbish,' and people are not trying to sell products, but instead advance consciousness, than any signpost pointing towards the realm of enlightenment is a 'good' thing..

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I experienced the Big Mind/Big Heart process as led by Diane Hamilton during the ILP seminar last year in Petaluma, CA. I was still SO new at the whole idea of integral that I just opened myself to the possibilities. I didn't have any type of profound experience. Well, no more profound than other practices learned or explored while there (and some were quite profound, moreso than BM/BH). I did get some insight into the different internal and “Big” voices; though I can imagine that this same kind of insight could be derived from voice dialog itself. Taking that practice the next step to “Big Mind/Big Heart” is the primary distinction, from what I could surmise. Again, though, I am a total newbie. I admit that I cringed a bit when I saw Ken's and Stuart's glowing reviews: 97% efficacy? Makes the whole thing a little suspect, as well as the intentions behind it. Can anyone say nepotism? That may be a bit harsh, but it's what came up for me at the time.

Edit: It would be great if Ken would elaborate on what he means by “awaken” in his review. Awaken to a new level of consciousness or understanding? Certainly not awakened awareness, entering the first level of enlightenment, I hope.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

This thread is 2500 years old. Since the time of the Buddha and thru all the yanas, sudden vs. gradual enlightenment has been debated. There has been no consensus.  So why wont Big Mind/Big Heart work for you? Can you easily shift perspectives? And most importantly, do you right now believe that your fundamental nature is perfect as it is? Or do you believe you have a lot of work to do? Both? Neither? If you think you need to work towards your fundamental perfect nature i.e. pay for it in some way because deep down you feel that you are a rat bastard, then Big Mind/Big Heart is not your cup of tea. It's no Big Deal though as there are a number of gradual paths available that will convince you eventually. You can always hedge your bet and throw it in once in awhile.  :-)

P&L

e

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Thank you, e.

You've put what i was going to say in a nutshell. But the debate about what exactly constitutes 'enlightenment' or 'awakening' will go on. Often, I've found myself in the strange position of arguing for someone's already existing self-realization - and they argue against it!

I guess it takes ripeness… then, just a glance, a smile, a single sentence, or a touch from a satguru will end the self-doubt  instantly. Ramana Maharshi has called self-doubt the last obstacle. So it's good to see what doubt is exactly.

Doubt is a thought. Or a series of thoughts. Whatsoever you think, it is always only just a thought. A movement of  consciousness within us allows  us  to doubt  our true self. The power to do that is given by the  Self.  Thus  self-doubt  proves  the prior existence of  Self,  untainted,  changeless, free of doubt. 

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey Mascha,

“Doubt is a thought. Or a series of thoughts. Whatsoever you think, it is always only just a thought. A movement of  consciousness within us allows  us  to doubt  our true self. The power to do that is given by the  Self.  Thus  self-doubt  proves  the prior existence of  Self,  untainted,  changeless, free of doubt.”

Nice! in Buddhism it is said the mind has two aspects: emptiness and infinite cognition. The problem is with infinite cognition. The mind narrows or contracts and the infinte cognition is then seen as other (object). And since there is ignorance of the fundamental empty nature of mind the belief in subject co-arises. Once this subject object split is reified (I'm here and it is over there), there then is a 'space' for further obcsurations to occur with the afflicting emotions  ( I  << like/dont like>>  it).

My favorite quote of Nis' ,”Wisdom tells me I am nothing; love tells me I am everything. Between the two my life flows.”

wishing you Big
peace & love

e

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey, e. Yeah, you're down on it, as my black friends would say. And that you're calling him 'Nis' is an extra little kick.

One of my favorites from Nisargadatta/Maurice Frydman (who actually  wrote  'I  Am  That' based on Nis' teachings) is this saying  – from memory now:

“Those who make plans will be born to carry them out. Those who don't, won't be reborn.”

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Beautifully said, Mascha.

Clarification: Certainly *instant* enlightenment or awakening is possible without extended, or even any, practice. What I was primarily questioning was the 97%. It seems each person's path is subtly or profoundly different, so saying that one method is 97% effective for those that use it seems a bit off.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I think Ken has said that we could define enlightenment by the nondual state realization plus a certain stage development, whatever the leading edge happens to be. He said turqoise, I believe, at that time, but another time he said that indigo was the leading edge, so maybe we could define enlightenment as the nondual state realization plus a turqoise or indigo stage realization. I would just add that it seems to me that turqoise or indigo cognition wouldn't be enough; the person would also have to have turqoise or indigo affect and motivation. It's worth noting also, I think, that Ken, I believe, defines a stage realization has having a center of gravity in a particular stage and that the person will still have responses, throughout the day, above and below that, maybe even way below or way above. Some people, I think, see a teacher with a state realization and a pretty high stage realization as well but see him demonstrate some ego or something at some point and decide the person doesn't have any realization at all. It seems to me that “enlightened masters” are more human than many people think they are and expect them to be.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

And, of course, while someone may get the state realization with very little practice, the stage realization will take an awful lot of work over a long period of time. Ken has said that it takes on average 5 years to get to another stage–if conditions are right–so if someone got the state realization when they had an orange center of gravity, it could be another 20 years at least (if they were working hard at it) before we could really consider them enlightened.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Ha, don't get me started on statistics, Colin. That's one of my pet peeves, and the reason why I gave up studying psychology at the university level. Statistics, once you know how the data is gathered, are usually self-serving BS, except in fields like engineering and a few other disciplines where they can give workable estimates.  But in finance, politics, psychology and spirituality… oh, forget it. Better to remain a skeptic and ask, how did you come up with that number, Ken? 97%?

Nicely, of course :-)

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Folks, you're making a mistake. Stage does not equal degree of enlightenment. You can have an enlightened person who is at any stage of psychological development. S/he can be a complete asshole with tons of shadow, too, which is also unrelated to enlightenment.

Part of the impetus for dealing with shadow and personal growth and all that other happy stuff is so that when you get enlightened, you aren't an idiot. Because it's unlikely that once you get absolute understanding of the Kosmos, you're going to worry about seemingly petty stuff like that. The example of Adi Da is Ken's favorite. He's a completely enllightened wanker.

KW's position seems to be that an enlightened person who is at a higher stage is “more” enlightened, in a relative sense, because they have access to more complete truths in the relative world.

I've also seen people here criticize someone for self-reporting they are at a particular stage of development. I think that part of the fear around that is the they think someone who is saying they are at a turquoise center of gravity is more enlightened than other people. This is also not the case. I'm far more cognitively developed than spiritually, and there are lots of other lines of mine that are incongruous, too. My financial sense is somewhere around magenta…

Liz

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Liz: “My financial sense is somewhere around magenta…”

oh, great.  lol.  um.   :0

Liz: “Folks, you're making a mistake. Stage does not equal degree of enlightenment. You can have an enlightened person who is at any stage of psychological development.”

To further clarify the excellent point you are making, and hip everybody to the latest word from the BBG, here's a quote from a recent Ken Wibler [sic bastard] & Stualicious do-or-dialog:

–The two axes of enlightenment.  Proposed in Ken’s newest book Integral Spirituality, this distinction between horizontal enlightenment and vertical enlightenment holds a key to revolutionizing our understanding of enlightenment in an evolving universe. Horizontal enlightenment is the traditional domain of the great contemplative traditions: the ability to master gross-waking, subtle-dreaming, causal-deep sleep, and nondual-suchness states of consciousness.  Vertical enlightenment is grounded in the truths of developmental psychology, which posit that humans grow through stages of greater care and consciousness, from archaic (infrared), to magic (magenta/red), to mythic (amber), to rational (orange), to pluralistic (green), to integral (turquoise), to super-integral (indigo), or stated more simply, from egocentric, to ethnocentric, to worldcentric, to Kosmocentric.  Since the great states of consciousness are present at every level of development, one can complete the entire body of meditative training in a given tradition and still retain a fundamentally egocentric or ethnocentric orientation.  Because structures of consciousness are evolutionary emergents and not ever-present realities like states of consciousness, an Integral Approach to spirituality would define full Enlightenment as being one with all states and all structures of consciousness at a given time in history.

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that is all,
the standing-wave meta-illusion known as “arthur”

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Mascha,

I once heard someone say (I think it was Huy at an I-WET in Boston) that
“37% of all statistics are made up on the spot.”
Delivered deadpan.

Love that.

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I found Big Mind/Big Heart useful, but if that was a kensho I experienced (each of the three times), why, I'll eat my hat.

I've had a handful of experiences that brought about semi-enduring state changes and plunked me into the causal and perhaps the non-dual. They were far more profound than my BMBH experiences, not just as state-changers but as stage-shifters. I enjoy BMBH. I think the idea of applying voice dialoging process up the entire spiral into the transpersonal voices is a great one. And I like the intimacy it potentially facilitates for a group. I like that it's a group psychological practice that is grounded in deep awareness, and that it journeys up the developmental spiral (self-sense line). But I cringe when I hear those 97% claims and it's actually dissuaded me from sharing the dvd of the process with friends who I know will close down and not participate authentically when they hear the claim.

Actually, it bothers me, I-I's tooting of it's own horn all bragaliciously in its marketing, and not because I have a problem with self-tooting. Self-tooting is good. I love the turquoise shadow thread. I just think its bad marketing. I-I doesn't need to go about proclaiming itself as the vanguard, headed up by “the most influential philosopher of our time” or whatever the line is. They really don't. The proof is in the pudding, and I'm willing to bet that the huge majority of those who bring their vital energies, participation and revenue to the I-I hoedown weren't drawn into it by the bragging.

Couldn't they just say, “We've found BMBH to be a wonderful and valuable practice, and we'd like to share it with you. Here you go. Hope you like it too…”

Best,
Lauren

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

“Actually, it bothers me, I-I's tooting of it's own horn all bragaliciously in its marketing, and not because I have a problem with self-tooting. Self-tooting is good. I love the turquoise shadow thread. I just think its bad marketing. I-I doesn't need to go about proclaiming itself as the vanguard, headed up by “the most influential philosopher of our time” or whatever the line is. They really don't. The proof is in the pudding, and I'm willing to bet that the huge majority of those who bring their vital energies, participation and revenue to the I-I hoedown weren't drawn into it by the bragging.”

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I've enjoyed everything I-I related so far, but what Liz says - at least in some ways - rings true to my experience so far.

I've also felt a big of a masculine overdrive on the whole I-I thing.  I don't know why, and I certainly don't have a problem with it.

Just mentioned in attempts to continue to spread the experience.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I was quoting Lauren, FYI. I'm not sure everyone is clear on that.

Liz

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

WORD to you Liz!

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hear, hear. Thank you, Liz (and Lauren), for that.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hearing the 97% claim about Big Mind really made me tense up. What if I'm one of the 3%? That might be why I didn't experience anything much when I listened to the Big Mind on IN. It would probably best, I imagine, if you were there with Genpo doing the facilitating; you could more easily slip into the Big Mind he was offering, sharing.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Statistics don't mean a thing unless they can tell you where the number comes from.

I agree that I-I has bad marketing. I don't mind aggressive marketing, but I want it to be good aggressive marketing. Make me feel special and like I'm getting something for almost nothing. :P

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Some suggested de-briefing questions (and my expectation of statistical answers) for the next BM/BH group session.

How many “got it?”
(97% say “me”)

Of those who say you “got it,” how many aren't sure but are afraid to look stupid?
(100% say “me”)

Now a question for “me.”  How'd you get to be such a Jerk;-)

Navin

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

So Navin, who are you really? The kid in the Emperor Has No Clothes On story! I knew it all along.
Jane

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

A suggestion for incorporation in all future Big Mind sessions (at least those held in conjunction with I-I:

I'd like to talk to the “loving critical feedback for Ken/I-I voice…

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

That's a cool, interesting quote, Mascha. I haven't really studied Nisagardatta, but I've meant to for a long time. Even though I've bought a half a dozen books so far this year that I haven't read entirely yet–I was really good about that last year–I think I'm going to have to go ahead and finally get that one.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Yep, sweet quote. Just a suggestion. Dont 'study' Nis, just read him for fun and let his words try and sneak past your discriminating mind. Here is a cool site if you have not seen it yet. If you want to mental tussle then Wei Wu Wei is the way to go.

http://advaita.org/

Liquorman is going to be in Chicago this weekend I believe.

peace

e

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Advaita has some grooviness about it, although it's a bit too much of a Boomeritis supermagnet for my taste.   Adyashanti is my favorite advaita-licious carbon-based lifeform, though I've also been to see Neelam a few times.

As for Big Mind/Big Heart, I've had one brief (a couple of hours) group introduction to it at an I-Wet conference, and like many giving input here, I was underwhelmed.  I did not have any significant state change; although there were aspects of the experience which were interesting, it felt like a head-trip that didn't go very deep into my being. 

I'd love to give the Big Mind/Big Heart process another go, and preferably I'd like to experience it on a one-on-one basis with either Genpo Roshi or (even better) Diane Hamilton, who I find very impressive and inspiring (as a friend and fellow I-WET attendee enthused, “I want to be like her when I grow up!”)  I have a feeling that transmission would be a big part of a successful BM/BH experience, and I feel that would likely be more potent for me in a dyadic rather than group situation. 

My provisional impression is that it is being vastly overhyped by Ken and I-I, but I remain open-minded and willing to try it further at some point (I'm in no hurry, and have other priorities at present).

The audio and video material available on IN does virtually nothing for me, although a friend of mind who has done a lot more Big Mind work with Genpo Roshi advises me to do a weekend retreat to really get a taste of it, and assures me that afterward I would be able to “tune in” to it a lot more, and then the audio and video presentations would be more potent.

Has anyone else had experiences with BM/BH which they'd like to share?

spiral out,
arthur

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I think it has alot of potential as a framework for engaging your S/self.  It's like integral neural linguistic programming.  I found it useful the one time I tried it although I didn't have rainbows and sunshine coming out of my ass(seems like that's what alot of people expect).

I think Genpo Roshi did a really good job at explaining where Big Mind fits into a more holistic Zen practice over at Buddhist Geeks.  Check it out guys

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/04/16/buddhist-geeks-15-is-zen-enough/

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Have you ever had rainbows and sunshine coming out your ass? That sounds fun. (actually I've been told that only happens when Diane does it)

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I linked to this thread from a similar (although less active) thread in the Multiplexiverse, and got the following responses:

~~~~~

Hi Arthur,

At your suggestion i followed the link to the Zaadz thread and gave it at least a cursory read. Its general tone seems one of disgruntlement with the Big Mind and Big Heart process. Evidently contributors to the thread just didn’t seem to ‘get it’. This can happen, in spite of the ‘hype’, and one possible explanation is that the BMBH process is somehow flawed. But wait a minute, seems to me that Roshi, as part of the intro to BMBH, offers that the only likely problem is that some folks can get ‘stuck’ at some point along the way; the wag in me wants to call this ‘stuckness’ BMBH-tile Dysfunction. Ah, but Roshi, once made aware of the problem is better than any little blue pill. Armed with a love of truth, compassion, and a load of experience he gets folks ‘unstuck’ through inquiry. He knows what questions to ask, as looking back on a stage of development is pretty much a matter of transparency, and he has been there, and then some; maybe it was all those years sitting on a cushion, or doing extensive koan work, and going inside of voice dialogue techniques, has given him some considerable expertise. I have witnessed this capacity first-hand and was amazed at how he just cuts to the chase -excising the root of the blockage with the skill of the finest of surgeons.     

I have no quantitative evidence to support any claim of 97% of participants ‘getting it’, but when he leads the process i would not be surprised, based on my experience, to find it to be a reasonable number.

Warmly,

Charles

88W18'28” 41N58'02”

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

hey,  thanks for cross posting in the name of good discussion, although, it would be nice if you didn't use other people's accounts to post on the multiplex unless you want to contribute somehow apart from zaadz advertising…  :)

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Lindsey:hey,  thanks for cross posting in the name of good discussion, although, it would be nice if you didn't use other people's accounts to post on the multiplex unless you want to contribute somehow apart from zaadz advertising…  :)

~~~~

Hey, my pleasure, Lindsey!  Please see my response to your recent post in the Multiplex BM/BH thread.

I'm sure I-I has no objection to me frequently posting links to audiovisual material in the Multiplex, thus encouraging people to subscribe to take advantage of that fine material - even though in so doing I am, by your definition, using my free zaadz account to “advertize” for I-I.  Similarly, note this passage from the IIzaadz pod description - which I wrote, btw: “Many of us have memberships in Integral Naked and/or Integral Spiritual Center, so that we can enjoy the incredible array of audio and video materials made available at low monthly cost by Integral Institute.”

metta,
arthur

p.s. This is getting kind of off-topic so I'm cross-posting it over to the Constructive Criticism (and Kudos) for I-I thread.  We can continue the discussion there if you like.  :)

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

>> “Have you ever had rainbows and sunshine coming out your ass? That sounds fun. (actually I've been told that only happens when Diane does it)”

Every now and then :P

Diane seems to have the perfect voice for leading any kind of therapy session(Very calming).

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey you all,
Its always daunting to read a thread thats has been going for a while, and add anything to it, but I suppose the predominance of critical feedback with everyone’s experience I found familiar, and yet distant.
I saw the I-I material, I saw the Kanzeon and I-I DVDs, and I visited Kanzeon in Utah to check it all out. See, it worked for me, from day one. There was even a little audio clip of a talk show host getting kensho in 15 minutes by Genpo, and I could feel the process. It really did get me to a much larger ‘witness state’ than I had only experienced once before.
But I am not surprised that lots of people also don’t get it. I was so enthused by it I tried showing it to my friends, and even the most close to buddhism didn’t get it. That was such a sad experience for me, but also a growing one, for obvious reasons.
My Jungian analyst was unconvinced too. And then something struck me. There is a strong link to preference for everyone of us. We prefer Diane, we prefer a more traditional long-term approach, we prefer accurate statistics, we prefer better marketing.
How about dropping-off preference? How about beginners mind?
As far as I can see through my own development process, I resist, I resist, and then somehow, someplace clarity comes - Ige t a new perspective. When I look back I can see its always because I gave up my idea of reality, situation whatever. And then my cup was empty, and could be filled up. Like the Zen koan.
Doesn’t have to be filled up with Big Mind. Could be Tolle, Krishnamurti… Just has to have given up, surrendered, shields off etc etc. Open to the next spiral glimpse…

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hi Guys

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey Jon,

I saw Genpo on youtube using a triangle diagram. He had Duality on the
right, Non-Duality on the left and I forgot what was at the top.

He gave the impression that Non-duality was surpassed by taking a position
at the apex. Is that the shikantaza 'position' you mentioned in another thread?
Does he still use this idea? Can you say anything about that?

love

e

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

>>I saw Genpo on youtube using a triangle diagram. He had Duality on the
right, Non-Duality on the left and I forgot what was at the top.

He gave the impression that Non-duality was surpassed by taking a position
at the apex. Is that the shikantaza 'position' you mentioned in another thread?
Does he still use this idea? Can you say anything about that?



I saw the idea in his latest book so I think it's safe to assume he's still using it.  Assuming the dual and non-dual voices are always present, holding both together is the more complete stance.  It's a typical hierarchic conception( interesting to contrast with Wilber's conception ).  I believe the apex is called the “Integrated Free Functioning Human Being.”

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey e

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Eugene >> It's a typical hierarchic conception

Sort of…see below…

Jon >> Yeah, he still uses the triangle, it is another tool in his box for pointing at… .  zen?

Right… 
Mountains are mountains
Mountains are no longer mountains
Mountains are once again mountains

As for shikantaza, it can be compared to the apex, though its good to keep in mind that both the names 'apex' and 'shikantaza' are being used here simply as handles for an ever unfolding experience or understanding which has no natural conclusion to be drawn. 

Yes, all things self-liberate in suchness.


Thanks Jon.

love

e

PS David, Arthur posted the links to the teachings originally referred to.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

OMG this thread is huge - gonna take me a week to read it. Thanks for bumping it Jonathan.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

e, which video were you watching?

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey David,

The video in question is most probably 'Same Shit, New Day' .

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

~~~

Same Shit New Day with Genpo Roshi Part 1

Same Shit New Day with Genpo Roshi Part 2

Same Shit New Day with Genpo Roshi Part 3

Same Shit New Day with Genpo Roshi Part 4

Same Shit New Day with Genpo Roshi Part 5

Same Shit New Day with Genpo Roshi Part 6

~~~

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Thanks, Jonathan.  :)

David

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Thanks, Arthur.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

A guy gave a theoretical summary of the Big Mind/Big Heart process in my last salon meeting. After that we watched several of the Big Mind clips from IN. And I had the most amazing experience! As soon as we moved into the transpersonal domains I felt a very strong kundalini movement and simply had to sit up straight, to the point where it almost hurt my back. Then as we explored the non-seeking mind and then Big Mind, I got a real taste of what this means.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

For what it is worth, the Big Mind process has been one of the most pivotal things in my life to date.  In late 2006 I had a pretty remarkable opening 'on accident' as a result of watching the Big Mind DVD in the Integral Life Practice kit. 

I think the instructions were to watch it once and then try to actually do it the second time or something like that.  While I was sort of half watching it the first time through Roshi was talking to Seeking Mind and he pointed out that the Seeking Mind never actually finds anything.  That got my attention.  I sat up and started paying some more attention.  When he asked to shift to The Way I made the shift and…   …my symbolic/linguistic thought returned about 2-3 days later.  I was moved to tears and 'I' (my symbolic replica self image) was literally blown away.  What I remember of the 2 or so days of no-thought is that I would stop in amazement at the lack of thought and the fact that I could function just as well or better without it.  I talked, I drove, I ate, I slept… well minus what 'I' had considered 'I' of course. 

I had the opportunity to do a 2-day workshop with Roshi last July and he managed to straight up turn off my thinking mind.  There is really nothing I can really say about the experience except that I was completely and utterly dumbfounded.  I would recommend without hesitation that anyone who is at all interested in Big Mind should go do the process with Roshi himself.  Sit as close as possible and 'dive right in' to every voice and be honest about where you are at.  You will not be disappointed.

I am presently looking forward to doing Big Mind again with Roshi in New York City next weekend.  I think I will make a point of trying to do live Big Mind as often as my budget and time will presently allow.  I regularly 'check in' with the process via self-facilitation and Zen-Eye.org

Just my two cents,

Mark

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

It's delightful to hear/read reports of profound experience with BM/BH.  I would like to give it another (more in-depth) shot sometime.  I think transmission is an important component, therefore I'd like to try it with Genpo Roshi himself.

spirals,
Arthur

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hi y'all,

Thank you all for sharing critique and experiences!

As with Mark and Daruma, my first experience of BM/BH comes from the integral naked-files and then from a weekend workshop with Genpo. The IN-files, which also are on youtube, was my first introduction - and that was really cool. Something in me shifted and opened up. A spaciousness. Not as profound as Mark describes, but still…something happened.

Then I attended a 2 hour evening seminar with Genpo, and that was a really profound experience to me. I remember afterwards sitting at a McDonalds restaurant in Copenhagen, eating a QP and being the Way. :-) It felt like the end of a 5 year obsessive search of meaning, wisdom and guidance and finding it all within oneself.

I signed up for the rest of the weekend, which gave no major shifts in my consiousness… But the depth of wisdom from Genpo was astonishing, or at least for me. He has a very deep understanding of the absolute realm as well as the relative realm, such as what psychological consequences comes from certain non-dual insights. In this way I think he is unique. That is really beyond zen!

A good example is the triangle e mentioned and Daruma and Eugene explained . When people get a non-dual awareness they tend to get stuck there, claiming that ego is an illusion and that Brahman is the only existing reality. Or as Ken puts it: “Getting the fuck out of Samsara”.

What happens is that ego turns into a huge disowned subpersonality - a shadow. So the non-dual awareness itself creates a new duality (or rather, the interpretation of the awareness), the one between duality and non-duality! Or between nirvana and samsara. Or between Big Mind and ego. This is a typical example of psychological consequences of spiritual insights.
As Genpo says: “The more enlightened, the more psychologically fucked up.” And he knows how, and what to do about it.

Genpos solution is the triangle with the two base corners and the apex (the top corner). In one base corner is ego, and in the other is the non-dual mind. Ego doesn't recognize non-dual mind, since it's finite, and non-dual main doesn't recognize ego, since it sees ego as an illusion - a dreem. The two voices are adressed and they get to express themselves. Then Genpo adresses the voice of the apex. The apex is the integration between ego and non-dual mind. It includes and embraces both of them making them both aspects of the self.

The triangle is used in more than that case. There are more transpersonal voices, such as Big Heart and the Master, like there are more dual subpersonalities.

Then about those 97 percents… Well, I had a profound experience, but it was no kensho (I would know, right?!).

So there are lots of things to be sceptical about this process, e.g. it's too good to be true, too simple and still so extensive - there is the shadow, the voice dialogue, transpersonal realm - you have to buy all of that. And best of all - the ego doen't have to die! It doesn't have to hurt, just ask nicely!

That's why he most often adresses the voice of  the Sceptic before he gets to the transpersonal voices. And there is also Big Doubt. :-)

So, disregarding the figure 97%, I think that BM/BH deserves all (positive) attention it can get. I really recomend it but without any guarantee.

And yes, he gives credit to Hal and Sidra Stone. And yes, they love his work.

The guinea pig
Kristian

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Hey, check this out - Annie McQuade has a brief interview on the Falling Fruit website talking about a controversy over Big Mind a while back:

~~~

A Crisis of Curiosity

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Nice one Arthur,

Amazing to read just how pissed off this Brad guy actually is with Genpo's Big Mind/Big Heart practice. I didn't find that episode with the Anne & Gwen 'controversial' in the slightest! Bless those lovely Buddhist Geeks.
Funny that isn't it, how simplification of a process can bring up wild rages out of nowhere for some… I guess it might piss me off if I'd been scratching my head for nothing for 20 odd years.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Lisaji: Amazing to read just how pissed off this Brad guy actually is with Genpo's Big Mind/Big Heart practice. I didn't find that episode with the Anne & Gwen 'controversial' in the slightest! Bless those lovely Buddhist Geeks.
Funny that isn't it, how simplification of a process can bring up wild rages out of nowhere for some… I guess it might piss me off if I'd been scratching my head for nothing for 20 odd years.

~~~

Yeah, I think they need to try harder if they want to be controversial.  :P

I was slightly boggled that the criticism came (so to speak) from a porn website - is that where integral critics hang out these days!?  Maybe they're disappointed that it's not Big Mind/Big Heart/Big Tits.   (Which leads to the question: just what is arising in the Big Mind of these people?  Big Dick?  They wish!)

I was listening to some I-I dialogs talking about BM/BH today with John Kessler  (who's apparently into that, if you know what I mean) and feeling kind of envious at the amazing experiences most people apparently have with this process.  Sheesh.  Maybe I'll have an opportunity to try again some time.

spiral out,
Arthur

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I read some other of the Brad guy's posts and I guess his style is being provocative, being on a porn site as well.

I'm speculating a bit here… I think it is a typical reaction from a immature sceptic. It's the opposite of faith or trust. So after sitting 20 years on the cushion clinging to faith or trust, you create a shadow in it's opposite - the sceptic. So when that one gets loose it's usually very immature and emotional.

Another shadow I think is present here is from the opposites provocation and humility. When into Buddhism, meditation and stuff you're supposed to be humble. It's intresting to see Buddhist-Geeks reaction, they get afraid of provocation, which is their shadow, and keep clinging on humility. Bless them!

This according to the lesson of Genpo: As soon as there is clinging, there is a shadow. :-)

Kristian

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Thank's Pelle.

The spritiual path as a hideout from everyday problem, I think I have done some of that. If you do that I think it's a great risk you get stuck in the absolute (if you get there). I read Eckhart Tolles description from his insight. It seemed like he was in a pretty bad psychological shape when he got his non-dual awareness. Non-dual - problems gone. He probably hasn't got a huge incentive to return to the dual… if I may speculate…

I liked Arthurs thread about spiritual bypassing!

How do you mean hiding in the therapeutic?

Kristian

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Haha,

Now that's it, well done Arthur - that's slightly more controversial. Yep, totally wierd on the porn site interview front. Doesn't surprise me that Brad's hanging out there ruffling his feathers. Hari Krishna wept! What more can I say. :) What's anyone else think who listened to that?


Lisa

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Brad Warner, I've never met the guy though I can certainly feel his presence.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I love that voice too: “the one that consciously chooses to be an ordinary human being”

Another aspect of it I think is the notion that you get an enlightenment or a kenhso as a reward for x years of meditation or rightful living. If Big Mind works then any asshole can pay $150 and get what you have been struggling for half of your life - before lunch! AND getting rid of some shadows too. Now thats not very fair, is it?! At least not from a dualistic perspective.

From a Kosmic perspective, wouldn't that be the best thing to do?! Taking an asshole, giving him a kensho and getting rid of the major shadows. ;-)

As Genpo describes it, the BM/BH-process is the fruit from decades of own medition, walking the path and helping others on the path, and decades of frustration from the difficulties in doing just that. This wouldn't be possible without all years of meditation, from Buddha to now. That's evolution!

Getting not so balanced critique like that is probably the price you have to pay for being an explorer and a pioneer, like Genpo and Ken. I don't know Genpo, but I wouldn't worry. He would maybe say something like: ”Let me speak to arrogance”, then ”ok… good, ok...” and then: ”Let me speak to unfairness.” :-)

Keep up the good work, Jon!

Love
Kristian

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Many of the people who commented have only watched a DVD of this process. Has anyone studied with Roshi?

If you are  in a process and you aren't feeling it, which believe me, I understand, then, at least in this process you are supposed to raise you hand. That is part of the rules of the process. Then Genpo, or whoever is facilitating the process will ask you, “Who is speaking?” It is totally normal to be in another voice. the voice that “doesn't like it, doesn't feel it, is skeptical, is bored”, and there is nothing wrong with ANY of the voices, it is just good to know “who” is showing up.

so much of meditation encourages us to notice our thoughts, so little of meditation encourages us to notice who is thinking those thoughts. Who is thinking?  If you are watching the DVD you don't have the opportunity to raise such questions. If you are doing a workshop and don't, well then you'll stay in that voice til the end and onward.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

I actually wanted to say one more thing. By the time I got to the Big Mind process I was so over it. Ken even told me personally to check it out, and I told him, “yeah, right, just what I need.” but I did.I went online and tried the process. What I was struck by was not Genpo's unyeilding faith that everyone is unborn buddha mind, which they are, and his confidence that since it is there, and since it is ever-present, he can ask to speak to it….. but I was more struck by how normal he was and how he even seemed to simplify the process, and make ken and colin more grounded, more practical. I loved that. 

So I went to see him. And I was feeling fairly bitter. After years circling various spiritual communitites that seemed more like an episode on General Hospital than a way to meet your true self, yeah, i was bitter. And when Genpo said it was all fair game, I took it at face value. So when I felt bitter and annoyed by him I raised my hand. He did not resist my state of mind or my opinion of him in the slightest. He welcomed it! Imagine my surprise after years of teachers trying to get me to see the world their way! He asked who was speaking and I couldn't even answer the question. He asked if he could experiment with a few voices, that they may not be the right names, but that we would just experiement TOGETHER and figure it out TOGETHER! I was down with that.

He spoke to the voice of the skeptic and I laid into him and Big MInd, and he agreed and launghed. He spoke to the voice of the cynic and I disparaged the entire spiritual venture and told everyone in the room they had too much time on their hands, that most of them needed a job and that Genpo Roshi did too! (all is fair game when you are speaking as the voice).  He asked to speak to contempt. I was too afraid to go there, that was not allowed in the identity I had of myself! So we spoke to fear and i spoke about my fears of letting out what I really thought about spirituality in the modern world and how I didn't want people to know how full of crap i thought all of this was. And Genpo, all the while, just welcomed this. He even pointed to examples about why I should feel this way about HIM!  Soon I spoke as contempt and all my anger about everything that I saw in this world, and how lame I had seen spirituality become came out, and it was fairly vicious. I talked about how I thought the whole spiritual trip had become a cliche of itself. And he welcomed all of this. He asked me from the voice of contempt what I thought about Big Mind. I laid into it! And he cracked up! I told him he was arrogant, and he said, “that's true, I am arrogant!”

Then he asked to speak to Big Mind. No need to talk about that.

But I'll tell you what really won me over about Genpo Roshi. I'll tell you what sealed the deal. I got really pissed at him about something and kind of disappeared for awhile. I had told other teachers or famous people when I was pissed about something and of course they said something like, “Sit on it.” or, “don't be so stuck in the self.” Basically they said, “it's your fault. If you were a more evolved being I would never piss you off, even if i was a complete jerk.”

I dedided to go to Roshi with what I was angry about. I told him that I knew the situation was complex, but that I was pissed about what went down. You know what Roshi said? “Oh, Annie, I'm sorry. I was kind of a jerk. I completely apologize.” And that is what sealed the deal.

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Well said Annie!

What I love about Roshi (and I know him far less well than you) is how he doesn't turn away from anything. There is an honest approach to looking at who we are as human beings (warts and all). Through the Big Mind process I have given voice to many parts of me, some that I have loved, some that I didnt want to acknowledge and some that I didnt even know were there. And that is the beauty of what Genpo Roshi seems to embody so well, that we need honesty, and an approach that includes the full spectrum of who we are. 

I have found it refreshing to see some of the things Genpo Roshi has acknowledged within himself - and this has cut through alot of the ideas of what I thought it meant to be spiritual - for instance that certain emotions werent allowed. What a relief!

It is also worth noting that anywork done with BigMind has to be backed up with some kind of sitting/ contemplative practice to embody what has been discovered. It is not just a case of one Big Mind workshop and then that's it. This has been my experience.  

Something I heard Genpo say in a workshop I have found to be true to my experience - that the BigMind process can act liie a compass. Once you have an experience of BigMind or Non seeking mind, how can i put…..you have much clearer ideas on what you don't need to do. For me especially when sitting, all the seeking and struggling that can be let go of.

I agree with Annie in that if you've tried the DVD and its' not worked then go to a workshop with Genpo and get stuck in! I'm sure you'll be pleasantly suprised.

Joel

Re: Big Mind/Big Heart - Genpo Roshi

Annie, I love your last two posts on this thread - especially the second one.  Thanks so much for sharing your experience.  Your openness, honesty, and willingness to speak uncomfortable truths fucking blow me away.  :)

Annie: If you are  in a process and you aren't feeling it…then, at least in this process you are supposed to raise [your] hand. That is part of the rules of the process. Then Genpo, or whoever is facilitating the process will ask you, “Who is speaking?” It is totally normal to be in another voice. the voice that “doesn't like it, doesn't feel it, is skeptical, is bored”, and there is nothing wrong with ANY of the voices, it is just good to know “who” is showing up….If you are doing a workshop and don't, well then you'll stay in that voice til the end and onward.

~

This is great advice, but advice that is very difficult for me to take.  Speaking up in a group is a big challenge for me, one that I am very much still working with.  I'd love to do one-on-one Big Mind/Big Heart work with Genpo Roshi or Diane Hamilton, or someone equally qualified; I'm also intrigued by the idea of doing a BM/BH workshop, and if I get a good chance to do so, I'll jump at it.  Then we'll see if I'd be able to “screw my courage to the sticking place” and speak up, in the likely event (based on my experience so far) that I'm not tuning into it.

Last night I went to a satsang with Gangaji, the second one I've been to.  This time I raised my hand every time she was asking people to come up but she didn't pick me…which, frankly, felt a lot like dodging bullets, lol.  I had a high degree of inner conflict over going up and talking to her, a serious approach-avoidance conflict, manifesting as stress and muscular tension that has me feeling today like I was run over by a truckload of rabid ninjas on acid (trust me, you don't want to feel this way). 

So, Annie, geez, you make it sound so easy.  :P  In any case, I keep a pretty agnostic attitude towards this process, and I figure I'd have to experience it first hand in greater depth to really make up my mind.  I am also very glad that people have come forth here and shared highly postive experiences of the process, particularly after so much initial skepticism was expressed.  (I also still believe that I-I overhypes it, even if it's just as amazing and effective as Ken says it is - I think it causes unrealistic expectations and feeds into the idea that the process is going to do you, rather than you having to put serious work into doing the process.)

spiral out,
Voice of Arthur