who is actually lifting weights?

I watched one of the ISC video clips, and out of all the teachers and people there Ken Wilber was the only one who looked to me like he did a LOT of strength training.  Now we all know Ken highly recomends weight-lifting as part of the kinesthetic module of an ILP, but how many people actually do this?  Personally I go to the gym once a week.  I don't have a body-builder's body and I don't want one – I just want to stay reasonably fit, if I can.  That's all I'm interested in.  I wonder if the other teachers do lighter training, or perhaps more cardio rather than lifting weights.  I like hearing Father Thomas, but I find it really hard to imagine him pumping iron!  So… guess I'm just waffling, as per usual.  How do people here feel about resistance training?  Does anyone share my suspiscion that Shawn Philip's FIT and other resistance training programs are just so very masculie/yang (and therefore great for people so inclined) and maybe not such good universal or “gold star” practices, for everyone?

Okay, that sounds more negative than I intended.  Let me try and give it a more positive spin.  What other kinesthetic practices are valuable, but perhaps more apropriate for yin types?  I've found RMAX's products really good, especially Intu-Flow (a taiji-like program for joint health and mobility recovery, though it also helps increase strength somewhat).

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Oh, thank GOD, a practical question.

I do have a wee theoretical query when I'm done, though.

I used to lift  weights before I had kids. I built muscle really quickly and easily then, and it did creep me out just a bit, because I didn't need big muscles, thanks. So I didn't get deeply into building muscle. I despise cardio workouts, but did them anyway, when I could force myself. What I got from that is to do what feels right for your body/mind, but not get carried away. You have to balance your workouts, as you strive for balance in all your practices. (Side note about Ken: he focuses so much on weight training because he simply can't do much else. Cardio is out for him. So probably the other folks have more balanced approaches because they are healthier than Ken.)

At the moment, my exercise is crap. I try to get walking in when I can, but I've been very lazy about it.

So my question is, should a person who feels very yin be doing yin sorts of exercises predominantly? Or would it make more sense to stretch in another direction? Do you think there is a reason you don't want to go in that yang direction, possibly one that you'd rather not think about? I'm not saying there is. It's just that there's always another side to things.

I despise cardio, as I said, but for my blood type I'm supposed to get lots of it, and I feel tons better when I do. Seems that areas where a person needs to grow are never the ones they find particularly fun, huh?

Liz

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Okay, I'm starting weightlifting again today! Seriously. My arms got that wing-flap thang goin …

I used to weightlift at a gym, then at home using a bench and barbells. Nothing heavy duty, but good toning work. I did that for years! I don't know why I stopped. Got kind of boring and repetitive, maybe? But heck, I could do bench exercises in my living room while I'm watching The Daily Show or something!

We still get charged monthly for this gym membership, and we haven't been in months …

I do walk a lot because I enjoy it. But I felt my best when I was both walking and weightlifting. And gotta have some stretchy yoga in there too …

It's spring. Time to get moving!

Mary

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

yep, well, er, I am starting again tomorrow. Actually, tomorrow will like be too lovely to stay inside, so maybe it will be the next day. I tried ordering a BowFlex thingamagig, my boys wanted it, but the shipping to NorthWest River was never part of the deal, so it never came. I have to say, it seems a bit more practical to garden and stack wood that go to the gym, burning fossil fuels up to get there. However, that said, I am wishing somebody would invent and bring to market an exercise machine like a cross trekker that would generate energy that could get stored in batteries, power the house, get put into the grid…..I would be an investor, and we would make a ton of dough……I just know this! And I would be very motivated to put in at least an hour a day making electricity….

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

I don't think it would generate much power, Jane.  I guess the body is designed to be energy eficient rather than to kick out lots of extra power.  I once heard a physics guy describe it in terms of kilowats and was shocked when I realised how power-hungry modern society is compared to what our bodies generate.

I resonate with the gym “problem”, but fortunately I only live within walking distance from my local leisure center so don't need to use a car.  I have contemplated doing workouts at home, but I doubt I have the space to install the things I'd want – my absolute minimum is a bar to do pull ups on.  Ultiately though I really enjoy the workout high, plus seeing all the regulars at the gym makes it sort of social.

Btw, Liz, have you tried one of those chi machines, you know, the ones that swing your legs side-to-side while you lie down?  They are relaxing and require no effort – you can just lie back and listen to music for 15 minutes a day.  That's all I do and it's had a very positive effect on my energy levels, though that might just be because I was so out-of-shape to begin with.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Believe it or not, I have two chi machines! I haven't used the one I have here in awhile, but I lent one to Arthur and he uses it fairly regularly.

Perhaps I will dig mine out again.

Liz

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Gavin, I am soooo disappointed to hear that….I usually burn 500 calories or something like in half an hour on one of those machines….I would have thought that that would have translated into a couple of lightbulbs or something like that burning for a day— 500kw-h(I can’t remember my electrical physics very well)…..I also saw an article of a someone who rigged up their washing machine to a bike of some sort, and that was the washing done!…….the refrigeration might be a bit more complex…….I would love to figure out how to get off the grid…er, but I am not mean to hi-jack the thread….just that I think about these things…..I read the book the Ecology of Commerce by David Hawkins, a few years ago, and it was very interesting to realize how much energy we are wasting in the name of efficiency. This energy balancing seems like it must be integral to an integral life practice. It means mostly that everyone should stay home and grown their own food…..and although I am travelling way to much this year, I agree with this. Jane

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Sorry to give you a reason not to do cardio, but electricity generation is not terribly efficient using the human body.  Do a little math (as I tend to do) and you'll need to run constantly to power the average US home.  Running burns about 1kW/hr (conversion from calories) for a 150 lb person, which is about what a home uses.  Assuming that is roughly translated into some mechanical device like a treadmill….who wants to be a hamster?!  And don't try to run the microwave at the same time or your treadmill will run backwards;-)


I could have just gone for a jog around the neighborhood in the time it took me to read this thread, research the silly statistics and do a lame calculation so I could post this.


I've been wanting to get a set of adjustable dumbells, but instead, I found all of you integral ones.

Navin

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

It's facinating how just at lunch today a friend and I were discussing the value and understanding of how being active and physically balance makes all the difference in how we walk in the world (literally). 

My perspecitive has been up and down.  I LOVE activity.  I love yoga, cardio, machines even.  Yet, not doin it.

The underlying question I keep asking myself is what is stopping me.

So, sorry infimitas if your thread seems to be getting hijacked….
but I would love to hear from any woman who has stayed with her pracitice (consistently) after kids have come and grown.  The reason I ask for a woman in this case is because it seems (and maybe I am WAY off on this) that our fitness is somehow connected to our body image ………. and that is a WhOLe other topic ;)

My body longs to hear your wisdom so it can finally get my mind to JUST DO IT.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

oopps…. sorry, guess it's just me  (*blush*)

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Okay, I want to try and weigh in on this (nark, nark, nark :-)

My oldest brother grew up as “the little kid” in the neighborhood at the time, and so between the older boys always just trouncing on him and my oldest sister enjoying the fact that she was bigger with him a bit much, so the story goes, the day came when he said, that's it -mom, dad, get me some weights! As my sister tells the story … one day she just suddenly realized, whoops! I'd better start being nice to him! because her days of overpowering him were no more.

So there are pictures that I drew of my family in 1-3rd grade and my oldest brother is always pictured with hulk-like muscles. This definitely influenced me. And … I liked the Hulk too! (used to watch the TV show in my specially ripped up pants and shirts - for those of you who remember that TV show). Okay, anyway, rambling.

I have always tried to lift and build muscle like my brother. I have always wanted to. I do know that when I was about 13-14 and was active and on the track team and really taking an interest in physical fitness … I absolutely noticed how it enhanced my spiritual and consciousness awareness. So that idea has stuck with me ever since. It's absolutely true. (Ken says in One Taste, how he has found it is so easy to transcend the body when it is in good shape. His emphasis on this has always been one of the key points I was happy to agree with in his work.)

Anyway, in later years I was among folks who were very much into a yogic yin relaxation and flexibility, freedom from tension type of bodymind practice. I adopted this too … but I always wanted to be able to mix the two. i.e. resistance/relaxation, breath/muscle … . long story short, no I've never quite fully reached that goal.

I have worked out regularly on and off for all of these years, but just never as regularly as I'd have liked. In these last couple years however, I have been nearing closer and closer to that ongoing commitment. Especially recently, I just might actually be making that progress I've always wanted to be made (e.g. I am starting to for the first time show signs of looking like my brother. :-)

But alas, something always gets in the way and it's so easy to fall off that wagon.

Weight lifting, however, does have a lot going for it other than Ken's advocacy. In reality, it's true and science has proven it, Fr. Thomas could, amazingly still start picking up those weights and his body would be very happy with him for doing it. Whereas, other types of exercise do indeed become more and more risky, even dangerous, with increasing age. So I think that alone says a lot about weightlifting as a fantastic physical module practice.

Okay, done smoking my cigarette, gotta go!

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

The thing that feels great about lifting weights is that it really gets the endorphins going. For some reason, cardio does nothing for me. I feel good afterwards, but I'm thinking about whether my knee is feeling kinda wonky or whatever. With weights, I just feel powerful and sexy when I'm done. I even really love feeling sore as hell a couple of days later.

Yes, having kids definitely interefered, and I just am not the kind of person driven enough to get to the gym or even the back yard after a night of interrupted sleep.

Interesting that this is coming up now, because Arthur and I are planning on helping each other become more disciplined in all areas of our ILPs once he moves here. Perhaps we'll start some sort of ILP blog at that point and try to get mutual support from everyone else here. That would be a great use of this here sangha-space.

For now, I am just trying to get through every day. I did have a nice walk this morning, though. Had to run to my son's school and back with some ice cream for a potluck!

Liz

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Hey, “tell yer boyfriend” (j/k) some kind of a dedicated “physical fitness” board or something would be a great idea here - to both inspire one another and keep track. And, it would also help for that “support” as kind of in this thread when “we've fallen.”  In part, something like that could be kind of along the lines of Balder's “What Does This Community Eat?” thread -where there's no real topic for avid discussion necessarily, just kind of a community record, sharing etc.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Yeah, it's a good idea. Thanks for starting this thread, infimitas. Especially for all us old flabby parents, apparently!

Liz

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Hey! Who you callin' “flabby!?” Why … that's all muscle!

And besides them kids need a soft place to rest somewhere!

…er … um . .

Okay, I got it! At least we have an excuse. Hmph!

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Tim:
In part, something like that could be kind of along the lines of Balder's “What Does This Community Eat?” thread -where there's no real topic for avid discussion necessarily, just kind of a community record, sharing etc.

I just started a new thread. Check it out…

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

I was just about to start lifting weights again!
After ten years of NOT lifting weights, and with the 30 year old arm flap goin' on-
I HAVE TO TAKE ACTION!
I am pretty consistent with exercise because I was born with one of those bodies that if I don't, BIG TROUBLE happens fast.
Big butt trouble, big thunder thigh trouble…
So it has been a lifelong struggle to stay away from the tasty treats and exercise…
Although most recently since the ILP has arisen in my life, it seems easier and easier to keep on track because you notice more acutely when you are not attending to that certain area of your life.

With that said though, it is still a struggle to jog, and keep things consistent. It really is your will that gets you outside. I have discovered this, over the many years that I have listened to my inner sloth try and convince me that pysical exercise was not nessesary…I have even believed the voice that says “If you think positive thoughts then you will not gain weight” HAHAHA really even before “The Secert” was out I had my own little system of magical thinking. (No offense to LOA followers!!!)

Anyway I would love to have a cyber group of you integral woman along with me, who are lifting weights together. Maybe this would help keep us on track?

I have thought of this before, like an integral 5K run group or an integral marathon fundraiser for II, like they do for breast cancer or march of dimes…

Just some ideas!
Lets keep eachother motivated.
Heres to not forgetting our bodies-

Brit

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

“So my question is, should a person who feels very yin be doing yin sorts of exercises predominantly? Or would it make more sense to stretch in another direction?”

“Do you think there is a reason you don't want to go in that yang direction, possibly one that you'd rather not think about?”

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Been lifting on and off (now on) for about 25 years. For me it is just strength training for the fun activities I like to do i.e. mtn bike, snowboard, ice hockey, white water kayak, etc. If you dont have a modicum of strength (and flexibility), your mistakes are much more costly. It is also great for rehab. I have been able to heal injurries much more quickly without the need of a Dr's care. I lift about 3 times a week for 30 minutes. The traditional chest, back, legs with a days rest inbetween. I lift after about 30-40 minutes of cardio and about 10 sun salutes and a situp routine. All you need is about 5-6 sets of dumbbells  (in 5 lb increments) and a small workout bench that inclines. The lightest dumbbell would be for bicep curls and the heaviest for benching or squatiing. All the other excercises will fit in that range.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Veeeery interesting.  After reading this post, I've been thinking all day about beginning a weight lifting routine.  I was at Sears and contemplated getting a weight set.  When I got home, there was a message on my phone.  “This is a message for Robert Alderman.  I want to know if you are still interested in a 30-day free membership at our fitness center.  Please call me if you are.”  I've never spoken to the person before, and have no idea what fitness center he's talking about, but I'll be giving him a call…  :D

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

I have even believed the voice that says “If you think positive thoughts then you will not gain weight” HAHAHA really even before “The Secert” was out I had my own little system of magical thinking. (No offense to LOA followers!!!) 

Actually, did y'all know there were studies done on this -or along these lines?

Visualizing weightlifting, or jogging or exercise actually does increase muscle! It is, however, just not as much as the real thing. (I think it was something like visualization brought about a 5% muscle increase whereas the real thing was 15% over the same period or something like that.) The recommendations for this, however, are if you're stuck in bed injured or something … because, you actually have to visualize, vividly, the entire exercise, the full movements, the resistance, etc. for the same amount of time. So, why not just do it!

Anyway, I did think that was interesting and lends support to the mind-body unity. (And I guess also, the NOT-all-powerfulness of “The Secret.” :-) )

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Okay, Pelle, I like your thread, but I have started one specifically dedicated to The Fitness Module.

So, come along folks!

I'm going to beat you!!!!

:-)

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

If anyone brings up that stupid fucking movie on this thread again, I'll personally make it a part of my ILP to kick their ass.

i'm mostly kidding. But don't push me.

Liz

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Hither to be known as the ‘S word’ and banished from all polite conversation for ever more….. Yay! Liz… I’m with ya baby….and now back to the weights.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Tim:
Visualizing weightlifting, or jogging or exercise actually does increase muscle! It is, however, just not as much as the real thing. (I think it was something like visualization brought about a 5% muscle increase whereas the real thing was 15% over the same period or something like that.)

Yeah, you activate the neuromuscular paths simply by thinking about it.
Without mentioning any kind of movie: focusing on what you want is supremely important.

I sometimes try to think tango movements through in my head, and my experience is that it helps a lot.

Pelle

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

[In the interest of full disclosure: I am a personal trainer.]

I have been lifting weights on and off for 25 years, but have been doing so seriously for the last ten years or so – inspired in part by Ken Wilber's discussion of weight training as part of an integral program in One Taste.

You can see my current program at the Integral Health pod.

Weight training doesn't have to be super hard core to be effective. There are a billion reasons to lift weights, including:

* increased bone density
* blood sugar control
* functional strength
* improved emotional state (as effective as prozac in some studies)
* it's fun
* it creates a sense of mastery
* improved fitness can increase self-esteem

I could go on and on.

As far as being an integral practice, it's one of the most comprehensive modalities available. And if you practice some of Shawn's recommendations, it can also be meditative. In fact, I once used weight training in place of meditation for a while – there are few things as effective in getting one out of ego consciousness than having a heavy barbell on your shoulders as you attempt to do squats. Either you are perfectly present in the moment or you get hurt. Fun!

I am huge advocate, obviously, of including weight training as part of an integral practice.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

I'd have to say that the best physical practice that a person could have, in an integal or 8 fold path kind of life, it would be eating in moderation and not drinking alcohol. A great way to include heavy physical exercise into your life is to voluteer in your town for building houses for the poor, participating in a farming co-op, bike riding, walking, etc…
If you eat in moderation and not with greed then you will get most of the health benifits of working out, and you'll actually be practicing at the same time. In order to have a proper weight lifting routine you have to eat more and more protein at that. I personally lift weights and stay active, but I'm just built big. It's genetics more than anything.
I find the need to look good as off setting to any benifits that someone could get from spending a lot of time in the gym. A gym just breeds these feelings.
If your naturally a skinny person, then you'd have to lift a lot of weight and eat a lot just to get big and strong, if at all. And, if your a naturally big person like me, that is if you have a six pack at 200 lbs., then health is found in the kitchen. BTW, I weigh 210 lbs., so no six pack.
It is important to take care of yourself, but only as much as it takes for you to be healthy enough for your practice, anymore can lead to vanity. After enlightenment, you can work out all day long and it won't hurt you, but until then…  That is, until then you will be working out purely for your self, which isn't the best way to get over yourself. Now I do work out from time to time, so I don't alway follow any of this advice, but I don't have an organization like II and write in books to tell people to do otherwise.
It's called the middle way after all.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Holden, “I'd have to say that the best physical practice that a person could have, in an integal or 8 fold path kind of life,…”


Here is how weight lifting fulfills the 8 fold path.

Right View is founded on the idea of karma. The body *is* karma. It is the result of past actions, whether from a previous life or your current life. By taking care of your body, you are acknowledging and accepting responsibility for your past actions. Also included is the 'precious human birth'. It is precious, so take care of it!

Right Intention. You stated it well, not thru vanity but thru the above do you intend to excercise.

Right speech. Thru abstenation (silence while you workout) or kindly supporting your workout partners do you cultivate right speech.

Right action by acting to maintain your body in a state of health. You are not harming yourself or harming others.

Right livlihood. Excercise helps to regulate the diet and sleep to help in your livlihood. You will perform your livlihood better thru excercise. If you dont like that then also by abstenation is right livilihood cultivated.

Right effort. Excercise leads to wholesome states of mind.

Right mindfulness. Mindfulness of the body, sensation, thoughts and emotion and the state of the mind can be practiced while lifting. All these can be seen to be impermanent and non-self while going thru the routine. The body *is* suffering while you workout! :-)

Right concentration. It takes concentration to perform any excercise.

There you have it. 30-60 minutes fulfilling the 8 fold path in daily life.

peace

e

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

I haven't been able to read through this thread in detail yet, but y'all have inspired me to finally start doing some light weights again as part of my ILP.  It's only been a few days, but already the results are minimally pleasing:

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By the time Liz gets here at the end of the week I should be in even better shape.    :)

I have done light weightlifting as part of my ILP at various times, and I have started that up again recently.  It feels fucking great while I'm doing it, and afterwards my body feels more solid, I feel more grounded, have more energy, more endorphins (what a friend of mine likes to call “endolphins”) and so forth.  It is a thing of supreme goodness. 

I like to start by taking a few quiet moments to dedicate the workout to all beings, or some such intention (on occasion I've dedicated it to particular people or things).  This helps set a certain spiritual tone and mindful intention.  While I'm doing it I like to focus on the feeling of my muscles as I'm moving the weights, to be really embodied and present with it.  Sometimes I play chant or other spiritual music in the background, although recently I've tended to use the OMNI CD for background; that way my brain gets a workout (or maybe massage) at the same time. 

spiral out,
arthur

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

I look at pictures like that and think, “There is no way I'm getting naked with a man whose tits are prettier than mine.” LOL

Or who has less chest hair than I do! Gulp!

Liz

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Word.  A chest like that looks overinflated (much, perhaps, like the chestbearer's ego) - a too-vigorous bite and it might explode!  (Which for most people is a total turnoff - exploding chests?  No thanks!) 

My goal is to workout enough to feel great and energize my being, but without going so far that my gf won't go to bed with me.  That is one unintended consequence that would be an wholly unacceptable (Batman).

spiral out,
arthur

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

“Here is how weight lifting fulfills the 8 fold path.”

That's good stuff there e. Of course, I'd have to take some E to get the full effect of that kind of rational. funny stuff, thanx.

That being said, I think that is important for us to acknowledge the fact that there are things that can be benificial after a certain level of understanding, verses at the beginning. I think lifting weights at your house, without mirrors or with a friend of the same sex, can be fine, but how many of us can even do that? I lift weights, but I don't see it in anyway connected to my practice. For that, biking, hiking, etc.. would probably be more benificial.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Well lets keep linking…

Weights support biking, hiking, etc.

Biking, hiking supports the parks and trail systems via pass fees, etc.

That is, biking and hiking in the backcountry helps to conserve land. There was/is a well intentioned but misguided movement to preserve land in a pristine way. But the best thing for it is to get bikers, hikers and anglers to use the land. This way people actually care about the land in a very direct personal way because they use it and it is less likely to get gobbled up by some rich lobbying company. Nothing against them, they just need to back off at times.

So by keeping yourself fit, you keep the whole world fit.
That should fit well into anyones practice.

P&L

e

PS I lift weights 3 times a week in the basement with no mirrors with my wife after we get home from work.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Your thought process on this is very integrally linked, but your assuming that all things are equal in exercise.  The fact is that lifting weights is one of the best ways to injure yourself and to keep you from hiking or riding bikes, etc…
Second, is the fact that there is a universal state of in-shapeness. This is one of the more misunderstood aspects of working out. For example, if you want to be a good swimmer you have to swim, for biking you have to bike, etc… Lifting weights is very helpful if you want to lift heavier weights.  This is obvious to anyone comparing the muscle physiology and ability of a sprinter vs. a long distance runner. They utilize two different kinds of muscle fibers.The Navy has found that bike riding is a suitable substitute for swimming when your not able to use water, so while waiting for BUDS selection for special forces SEALs, some guys will bike and swim.  Oh, and those guys are in as good shape a human can really get to, all without weights. Even then, their bodies are used up while they are young.
I remember once, in the pre-SEAL selection, having to do 500 push-ups without being allowed to go anywhere.  Later, I found out that push-ups are horrible for the rotator cuff. After many months of that, I went to lift weights, and I noticed that I could lift much more weight with my left arm in a bench press than with my right one, and I'm right handed. My right side can lift the same starting out, but it gets weak much faster. So it's a nerve problem. 

This leads me to another point. Hyper exertion, like weightlifting, tends to flood the body with antioxidants, so it is recommended that someone eat a hand full of raisins before lifting weights to help counter act this process.
I could go on with this, but I think the point is made.

I lift weights as well, but it is mainly because I've locked myself into a big body type. You see your hypothalamus has a kind of set point, which sets at your heaviest weight. Once your a certain weight, your body will attempt to stay at that weight, and will heavily resist any attempt to change it. I don't want to get into the biochemical way that it does this or why.
Anyway, this means that the best way to loose fat is to substitute the weight with an equal amount of muscle. To your body, it is a measure of total mass, and not tissue type.
But, this also means that if you gain muscle weight, and then become sedentary or stop lifting, the easiest way for your body to keep your total mass is a state of homeostasis is to replace the lost muscle mass with equal fat mass. Since muscle is much denser than fat, you will gain more fat per cubic measured unit, than you loose of muscle. So if you lift weights, and get big, you have locked yourself into the lifestyle. Eventually, everyone will have to stop lifting at a certain age.  You can limit your caloric intake to keep from gaining the fat, but your body will resist you and very few people succeed.
This isn't something that Ken or others talk about.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Hey Holden,

Your thought process on this is very integrally linked, but your assuming that all things are equal in exercise. 

Not really, I said early in this thread I use weight lifting to support the other fun sports I participate in.


The fact is that lifting weights is one of the best ways to injure yourself and to keep you from hiking or riding bikes, etc…

Sorry, I kind of assumed people would not go hog wild and hurt themselves. As you learn about the limits of your body and are cognizant of correct form, injurries dont really happen much. Yeah, you can drop a weight on your toe, etc.


Second, is the fact that there is a universal state of in-shapeness. This is one of the more misunderstood aspects of working out. For example, if you want to be a good swimmer you have to swim, for biking you have to bike, etc… Lifting weights is very helpful if you want to lift heavier weights.

The sport  I was really into when I was a kid was speed skating. We biked alot to crosstrain too. What happens though to some people is that  the quads get way overdeveloped and the hamstrings and hip flexors remain under developed by repetitively doing a certain type of motion. By doing strength training on the hams and flexors, ones speed increased. The ability of the leg in the recovery phase to go quicker because it was more powerful created a faster overall turnover of the stroke. Faster stroke with increased power translated in faster speed or better performance. Eric Heiden traveled with his weights to meets!! It may be different for different sports. I have noticed in mtn biking, if I strength train my upper body, my riding gets smoother, I can control the bike and my body better as I go over logs and climbing is easier. Plus as some muscles get fatigued, I can use other muscles to help out.

I only weigh 185 but am pretty strong because I strength train (not body build). Since I live in a city, I cant get to the trails I like to visit on the weekends on my mtn bike. So I am regulated to the basement to keep fit.

peace & love

e

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

“This isn't something that Ken or others talk about.”

Pity, because they are precisely the sort of conversations I enjoy!  It's not easy though, because opinions on these sort of things vary so much it's almost impossible for a non-specialist to know what to believe.  On the old forum there were a few people really into it, but they have long-since dissapeared…. Rhonda and Jana, I think.  Remember them?  They would always wade in on discussions like this.

I personally believe that lifting weights poses a greaeter danger to the joints, and has less functional carry-over to other types of exercise, than many people seem to realise.  There are a lot of factors though, such as your diet and what other activities you do.  Although my understanding is subject to constant revision, at the moment I am of the opinion that balanced calisthenics rather than weights, combined with a healthy nutrient dense diet (especially raw food) combined with a good joint-health practice like Intu-Flow, will minimise any risk of injury.

That said, an hour lifting weights has a totally different feel to an hour of calisthenics.  I suspect it works much better for combining witha meditative-like awareness.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

e,

I wasn't talking about specific situations like yourself.  Weight lifting can also become necessary in a physical therapy regamine after an accident.
I'm not against lifting weights. It is my prefered way of working out, since I'm too busy and poor to do a lot of out doors stuff as well. I just wouldn't recommend it to someone as a part of an integral lifestyle. I think Yoga would be infinitely more benificial than weight lifting for this purpose. I also got a letter from Habitat for Humanity yesterday. They want me to help build houses. Now that would be an integral practice of working out! And that is available to any urban resident.
Since you work out in your garage, you probably don't have the kind of equipment that can really hurt you and you know what your doing, but that's not the majorities case.
My wife will want to do strength training at the gym and I tell her not to experiement and not to do any exercise that I haven't shown her how to do. There are a lot of machines and exercises that will hurt you.
I think I'll go lifting today actually.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Hey Holden,

I agree yoga is essential. My sister has been an Iyengar teacher for like 25 years. She says your age is related to your spines ability to bend forwards/backwards and twist. From that perspective, you can become 'younger'. After my cardio and before situps and weights. I will do 10 sun salutes and some asanas depending on how my body feels.

Here is a brief article from the Parade magazine I read a few weeks ago. The key in regards to weight training for me was.

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2007/edition_03-18-2007/Make_Body_Younger

You replace about 1% of your cells every day. That means 1% of your body is brand-new today, and you will get another 1% tomorrow. Think of it as getting a whole new body every three months. It's not entirely accurate, but it's pretty close. Viewed that way, you are walking around in a body that is brand-new since Christmas-new lungs, new liver, new muscles, new skin. Look down at your legs and realize  that you are going to have new ones by the Fourth of July. Whether that body is functionally younger or older is a choice you make by how you live.

You choose whether those new cells come in stronger or weaker. You choose whether they grow or decay each day from then on. Your cells don't care which choice you make. They just follow the directions you send. Exercise, and your cells get stronger; sit down, and they decay.

If you want to continue to help the Habitat folks well into your future, then there is no way around it, you have to stay strong (& flexible).

peace

e

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Hey e, I've loved all your input on this thread.

I particularly liked this too:

Your cells don't care which choice you make. They just follow the directions you send.

Almost everything I've ever experienced about the body-more than just the cells, the entire body as a systemic (system of systems) organism- has seemed to hold this to be true. (I wouldn't say it's 100% but for the most part the body does its best to follow the directions it is given, for better or for worse. )

To me, somehow realizing this really evokes great compassion, awe and wonder.

I think the idea of befriending the body, this wonderful thing-made up of so many other things- that does so much for you, is significant too.

All or so many of the mystics come to similar conclusions as well. Even St. Paul!

“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit  … Therefore honor God with your body,” (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Here, Witman's inspired, Nature Mystical gross immersion …

 

I SING the Body electric;  

The armies of those I love engirth me, and I engirth them;  

They will not let me off till I go with them, respond to them,  

And discorrupt them, and charge them full with the charge of the Soul.  

Was it doubted that those who corrupt their own bodies conceal themselves;          5

And if those who defile the living are as bad as they who defile the dead?  

And if the body does not do as much as the Soul?  

And if the body were not the Soul, what is the Soul?  

2

The love of the Body of man or woman balks account-the body itself balks account;  

That of the male is perfect, and that of the female is perfect.   10

The expression of the face balks account;  

But the expression of a well-made man appears not only in his face;  

It is in his limbs and joints also, it is curiously in the joints of his hips and wrists;  

It is in his walk, the carriage of his neck, the flex of his waist and knees-dress does not hide him;  

The strong, sweet, supple quality he has, strikes through the cotton and flannel;   15

To see him pass conveys as much as the best poem, perhaps more;  

You linger to see his back, and the back of his neck and shoulder-side.  

The sprawl and fulness of babes, the bosoms and heads of women, the folds of their dress, their style as we pass in the street, the contour of their shape downwards,  

The swimmer naked in the swimming-bath, seen as he swims through the transparent green-shine, or lies with his face up, and rolls silently to and fro in the heave of the water,  

The bending forward and backward of rowers in row-boats-the horseman in his saddle,   20

Girls, mothers, house-keepers, in all their performances,  

The group of laborers seated at noon-time with their open dinner-kettles, and their wives waiting,  

The female soothing a child-the farmer's daughter in the garden or cow-yard,  

The young fellow hoeing corn-the sleigh-driver guiding his six horses through the crowd,  

The wrestle of wrestlers, two apprentice-boys, quite grown, lusty, good-natured, native-born, out on the vacant lot at sundown, after work,   25

The coats and caps thrown down, the embrace of love and resistance,  

The upper-hold and the under-hold, the hair rumpled over and blinding the eyes;  

The march of firemen in their own costumes, the play of masculine muscle through clean-setting trowsers and waist-straps,  

The slow return from the fire, the pause when the bell strikes suddenly again, and the listening on the alert,  

The natural, perfect, varied attitudes-the bent head, the curv'd neck, and the counting;   30

Such-like I love-I loosen myself, pass freely, am at the mother's breast with the little child,  

Swim with the swimmers, wrestle with wrestlers, march in line with the firemen, and pause, listen, and count.  

3

I know a man, a common farmer-the father of five sons;  

And in them were the fathers of sons-and in them were the fathers of sons.  

This man was of wonderful vigor, calmness, beauty of person;   35

The shape of his head, the pale yellow and white of his hair and beard, and the immeasurable meaning of his black eyes-the richness and breadth of his manners,  

These I used to go and visit him to see-he was wise also;  

He was six feet tall, he was over eighty years old-his sons were massive, clean, bearded, tan-faced, handsome;  

They and his daughters loved him-all who saw him loved him;  

They did not love him by allowance-they loved him with personal love;   40

He drank water only-the blood show'd like scarlet through the clear-brown skin of his face;  

He was a frequent gunner and fisher-he sail'd his boat himself-he had a fine one presented to him by a ship-joiner-he had fowling-pieces, presented to him by men that loved him;  

When he went with his five sons and many grand-sons to hunt or fish, you would pick him out as the most beautiful and vigorous of the gang.  

You would wish long and long to be with him-you would wish to sit by him in the boat, that you and he might touch each other.  

4

I have perceiv'd that to be with those I like is enough,   45

To stop in company with the rest at evening is enough,  

To be surrounded by beautiful, curious, breathing, laughing flesh is enough,  

To pass among them, or touch any one, or rest my arm ever so lightly round his or her neck for a moment-what is this, then?  

I do not ask any more delight-I swim in it, as in a sea.  

There is something in staying close to men and women, and looking on them, and in the contact and odor of them, that pleases the soul well;   50

All things please the soul-but these please the soul well.  

5

This is the female form;  

A divine nimbus exhales from it from head to foot;  

It attracts with fierce undeniable attraction!  

I am drawn by its breath as if I were no more than a helpless vapor-all falls aside but myself and it;   55

Books, art, religion, time, the visible and solid earth, the atmosphere and the clouds, and what was expected of heaven or fear'd of hell, are now consumed;  

Mad filaments, ungovernable shoots play out of it-the response likewise ungovernable;  

Hair, bosom, hips, bend of legs, negligent falling hands, all diffused-mine too diffused;  

Ebb stung by the flow, and flow stung by the ebb-love-flesh swelling and deliciously aching;  

Limitless limpid jets of love hot and enormous, quivering jelly of love, white-blow and delirious juice;   60

Bridegroom night of love, working surely and softly into the prostrate dawn;  

Undulating into the willing and yielding day,  

Lost in the cleave of the clasping and sweet-flesh'd day.  

This is the nucleus-after the child is born of woman, the man is born of woman;  

This is the bath of birth-this is the merge of small and large, and the outlet again.   65

Be not ashamed, women-your privilege encloses the rest, and is the exit of the rest;  

You are the gates of the body, and you are the gates of the soul.  

The female contains all qualities, and tempers them-she is in her place, and moves with perfect balance;  

She is all things duly veil'd-she is both passive and active;  

She is to conceive daughters as well as sons, and sons as well as daughters.   70

As I see my soul reflected in nature;  

As I see through a mist, one with inexpressible completeness and beauty,  

See the bent head, and arms folded over the breast-the female I see.  

6

The male is not less the soul, nor more-he too is in his place;  

He too is all qualities-he is action and power;   75

The flush of the known universe is in him;  

Scorn becomes him well, and appetite and defiance become him well;  

The wildest largest passions, bliss that is utmost, sorrow that is utmost, become him well-pride is for him;  

The full-spread pride of man is calming and excellent to the soul;  

Knowledge becomes him-he likes it always-he brings everything to the test of himself;   80

Whatever the survey, whatever the sea and the sail, he strikes soundings at last only here;  

(Where else does he strike soundings, except here?)  

The man's body is sacred, and the woman's body is sacred;  

No matter who it is, it is sacred;  

Is it a slave? Is it one of the dull-faced immigrants just landed on the wharf?   85

Each belongs here or anywhere, just as much as the well-off-just as much as you;  

Each has his or her place in the procession.  

(All is a procession;  

The universe is a procession, with measured and beautiful motion.)  

Do you know so much yourself, that you call the slave or the dull-face ignorant?   90

Do you suppose you have a right to a good sight, and he or she has no right to a sight?  

Do you think matter has cohered together from its diffuse float-and the soil is on the surface, and water runs, and vegetation sprouts,  

For you only, and not for him and her?  

7

A man's Body at auction;  

I help the auctioneer-the sloven does not half know his business.   95

Gentlemen, look on this wonder!  

Whatever the bids of the bidders, they cannot be high enough for it;  

For it the globe lay preparing quintillions of years, without one animal or plant;  

For it the revolving cycles truly and steadily roll'd.  

In this head the all-baffling brain;  100

In it and below it, the makings of heroes.  

Examine these limbs, red, black, or white-they are so cunning in tendon and nerve;  

They shall be stript, that you may see them.  

Exquisite senses, life-lit eyes, pluck, volition,  

Flakes of breast-muscle, pliant back-bone and neck, flesh not flabby, good-sized arms and legs,  105

And wonders within there yet.  

Within there runs blood,  

The same old blood!  

The same red-running blood!  

There swells and jets a heart-there all passions, desires, reachings, aspirations;  110

Do you think they are not there because they are not express'd in parlors and lecture-rooms?  

This is not only one man-this is the father of those who shall be fathers in their turns;  

In him the start of populous states and rich republics;  

Of him countless immortal lives, with countless embodiments and enjoyments.  

How do you know who shall come from the offspring of his offspring through the centuries?  115

Who might you find you have come from yourself, if you could trace back through the centuries?  

8

A woman's Body at auction!  

She too is not only herself-she is the teeming mother of mothers;  

She is the bearer of them that shall grow and be mates to the mothers.  

Have you ever loved the Body of a woman?  120

Have you ever loved the Body of a man?  

Your father-where is your father?  

Your mother-is she living? have you been much with her? and has she been much with you?  

-Do you not see that these are exactly the same to all, in all nations and times, all over the earth?  

If any thing is sacred, the human body is sacred,  125

And the glory and sweet of a man, is the token of manhood untainted;  

And in man or woman, a clean, strong, firm-fibred body, is beautiful as the most beautiful face.  

Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body?  

For they do not conceal themselves, and cannot conceal themselves.  

9

O my Body! I dare not desert the likes of you in other men and women, nor the likes of the parts of you;  130

I believe the likes of you are to stand or fall with the likes of the Soul, (and that they are the Soul;)  

I believe the likes of you shall stand or fall with my poems-and that they are poems,  

Man's, woman's, child's, youth's, wife's, husband's, mother's, father's, young man's, young woman's poems;  

Head, neck, hair, ears, drop and tympan of the ears,  

Eyes, eye-fringes, iris of the eye, eye-brows, and the waking or sleeping of the lids,  135

Mouth, tongue, lips, teeth, roof of the mouth, jaws, and the jaw-hinges,  

Nose, nostrils of the nose, and the partition,  

Cheeks, temples, forehead, chin, throat, back of the neck, neck-slue,  

Strong shoulders, manly beard, scapula, hind-shoulders, and the ample side-round of the chest.  

Upper-arm, arm-pit, elbow-socket, lower-arm, arm-sinews, arm-bones,  140

Wrist and wrist-joints, hand, palm, knuckles, thumb, fore-finger, finger-balls, finger-joints, finger-nails,  

Broad breast-front, curling hair of the breast, breast-bone, breast-side,  

Ribs, belly, back-bone, joints of the back-bone,  

Hips, hip-sockets, hip-strength, inward and outward round, man-balls, man-root,  

Strong set of thighs, well carrying the trunk above,  145

Leg-fibres, knee, knee-pan, upper-leg, under leg,  

Ankles, instep, foot-ball, toes, toe-joints, the heel;  

All attitudes, all the shapeliness, all the belongings of my or your body, or of any one's body, male or female,  

The lung-sponges, the stomach-sac, the bowels sweet and clean,  

The brain in its folds inside the skull-frame,  150

Sympathies, heart-valves, palate-valves, sexuality, maternity,  

Womanhood, and all that is a woman-and the man that comes from woman,  

The womb, the teats, nipples, breast-milk, tears, laughter, weeping, love-looks, love-perturbations and risings,  

The voice, articulation, language, whispering, shouting aloud,  

Food, drink, pulse, digestion, sweat, sleep, walking, swimming,  155

Poise on the hips, leaping, reclining, embracing, arm-curving and tightening,  

The continual changes of the flex of the mouth, and around the eyes,  

The skin, the sun-burnt shade, freckles, hair,  

The curious sympathy one feels, when feeling with the hand the naked meat of the body,  

The circling rivers, the breath, and breathing it in and out,  160

The beauty of the waist, and thence of the hips, and thence downward toward the knees,  

The thin red jellies within you, or within me-the bones, and the marrow in the bones,  

The exquisite realization of health;  

O I say, these are not the parts and poems of the Body only, but of the Soul,  

O I say now these are the Soul!  165

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Thanks Tim. I agree with all your points as well. We could go on and on. I dont think we've talked about the tool of dicipline developed within a workout regime and how it applies to other aspects of 'practice'. That stick-to-it-iveness…no matter rain nor shine…that helps inch us along our paths.

p&l

e

PS I have heard some folks are injecting sand into babies toys to give them a head start. :-)

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Wow, what a weighty subject!  Uh huh huh huh…huh.

I'm not sure how I can possibly follow up Walt Whitman.  Like e, I practice strength training, although maybe not on as noble a path as him.  I lift weights and run 3-4 times a week, and practice yoga 3 times–Pattabhi Jois-style ashtanga primary series.  If that kind of regimen makes it sound like I don't have a life–it's true.  Because currently I live in the middle of nowhere and will be here until next October (when I relocate to Santa Cruz for graduate school).  I too have found weight training to be really helpful with quite a few other activities, such as rock climbing and backpacking.  However, I feel like doing yoga in conjunction with weights has been equally as valuable, and ultimately it seems to me that yoga is much more sustainable and balanced as a regular exercise routine than weights.  I used to do just yoga for 2 hours six days a week, and honestly I felt the best I ever have in terms of energy levels and emotional resilience and genuine equanimity.  Or maybe it was the coffee enemas…

Just kidding!  Though I'm not opposed to such, um, cleansing practices, as long as great care is taken.  As far as weights being integral, I think holden is right about set and setting.  Gyms tend to foster a regression of attitude to high school insecurities and corresponding macho competitiveness, wich can be mildly annoying–or amusing, if you're aware enough.  Even worse, you run the risk of overexposure to the sonic onslaughts of Supertramp, early AC/DC (who's got big balls?), Queen (only Bohemian Rhapsody, mind you), REO Speedwagon, The Eagles, and every other classic arena rock staple you can think of.  I vaguely remember a discourse of the Buddha describing the supremely unfortunate states associated with encounters with these entities:

“Sariputra, what do you think?  What are these fetters that lead the mind into delusion, fear, anger, and heedlessness, for countless kalpas as numerous as Starbucks outlets.  They are the Speedwagon kilesa, the Supertramp kilesa, the Styx kilesa, the Billy-Joel kilesa…”

It then talks about how you'll be reincarnated as a pair of spandex worn by an individual with an apocrine sweat gland disorder and a diet of salty shellfish and garlic.  That's kind of preferable to enduring another 9-minute Frampton talk-box solo.  Anyway, i would ultimately recommend yoga as a sustainable, integral fitness practice.  But, balance is key, and weight training is fine as long as you cover the bases, like cognition (be aware of safe equipment handling, proper technique, proper weight distribution) and intention and emotional elements (it can be a good practice for more deeply working with/learning about emotional energies).

Just remember the Buddha's warnings.

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

LOL

Hey Blue, you brought up some old memories for me. I used to work out in this gym owned by this one legged heavyweight WBA ranked boxer. He lost his leg in a motorcycle accident. He had an indomitable spirit, real warrior type. He fought someone who fought Mike Tyson, really gave it a go but because of his handicap, he just could not progress any further in the sport. Anyway, one day I walk into his gym and he says to me, 'hey e, check it out' as he pulls out his scrotum with about 20 safety pins of various sizes he had put thru it (dont try that at home kids). So I say, without missing a beat, 'hey Gator, at least you know where your safety pins are when you need one' and walk into the gym. He would chit chat with newcomers and drop a 45lb weight on his fake foot and act like nothing happened. The newcomers jaws would hit the ground. What a character!!

But whether you have a predeliction for this environment with it's angry warriors or the svelte harry legged/underarmed patchouli smelling embodiments of green tara in a yoga day spa does not matter much. It all seems like preparation for the bardo i.e. we are all just passing thru.

peace & love,

e

Re: who is actually lifting weights?

Hey, Ken's not the only spiritual teacher pumping some sweet iron.  Check out Sri Chinmoy:

http://srichinmoybio.co.uk/weightlifting/images/256lbs.jpg