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The Integral Pod (formerly I-I+Zaadz, or IIZ) is a discussion group (a.k.a. “pod”) for enthusiasts of the work of Ken Wilber and other proponents of integral thought. Our aim here is to provide a “We-space” for broad discussion of second-tier living, loving and learning. Please read our vision and guidelines – the ...(more)
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  Balder : Kosmonaut

Absolute and Relative Emancipation in TSK and Integral

Balder said Apr 1, 2007, 10:07 PM:

 

I just posted a thread on my TSK pod in response to a portion of my conversation with Ken Wilber this weekend.  I wanted to post a link to it here, in case you are not a member of that pod but would care to discuss this topic.  I'm looking in particular at how TSK approaches these issues (since Wilber says it does so inadequately, and I only partly agree), but if we pursue the discussion in this forum, we can expand the topic some or adjust its “angle,” as you see fit.

Absolute and Relative Emancipation in TSK and Integral

Best wishes,

Balder

  Balder : Kosmonaut

Re: Absolute and Relative Emancipation in TSK and Integral

Balder said Apr 4, 2007, 12:40 PM:

 

I'm going to do a little “commentary” on part of Tarthang Tulku's text (which is available in full in the thread linked in my previous post), trying to comb through it from an AQAL, postmetaphysical perspective.  I'd like to hear your feedback, particularly if you disagree with my reading… but also if you don't!


Tarthang Tulku:  “If we begin at a level that is too abstract, we may come under the influence of theoretical constructs that lack transforming power. But if we look at our own experience to see how the patterns we rely on are established, insight is directly available. Language, behavior, living conditions, human evolution, the rise of consciousness, our own personal development, and the circumstances in which we act and live - these are the subject of our inquiry. Without restricting knowledge to 'psychology' or 'anthropology', such an inquiry recognizes that the subject and substance for investigation can be found in immediate, present experience, within and around in all directions.”


Tarthang Tulku suggests an AQAL range of experience and knowledge as the subject of an inquiry which aims at a “more comprehensive knowledge.”  (I highlighted the words which I think comprise an AQAL range of concern.)  As a contemplative, he is interested primarily in the transformative potential of knowledge, and thus stresses that starting from too abstract a perspective will not have transformative power; the knowledge yielded by abstract reflection or research must be wedded to personal experience, which of course is also an integral concern.  I do not believe he is commenting specifically on how individual anthropologists, psychologists, or linguists should proceed - though a number of them have drawn on the TSK vision for inspiration in their disciplines - but rather is suggesting that knowledge from these and other disciplines can be used in the service of deepening TSK inquiry.


Tarthang Tulku:  “We might start by looking at beginnings. The known world is built up on the basis of communication. How did human beings learn to speak?  Scientific speculations on this point, together with the evidence that supports them, can serve to focus an inquiry that looks at how language functions within our own minds, shaping our intelligence, our perception, our understanding, and our interactions with others.”


Here again, he is suggesting using LL or UR disciplines (I believe linguistics and related studies would fall in these areas) in the service of UL inquiry and transformation.


Tarthang Tulku:  “Another focus might be the process by which human consciousness changes over time. Different cultures have accepted as fundamental realities and ways of thinking that are completely different from our own. Appreciation for such differences can suggest how the changing dimensions of consciousness have given rise to our own ways of thinking, and can loosen the hold that our styles of thought and imagination have over us. Reflections based on our own experience and observation of the culture around us, together with study of findings by historians and cross-cultural investigators can provide a fruitful basis for such inquiry. Literature and the root meaning of the words and symbols we use in daily discourse can also offer valuable clues to the workings of the mind.”


In my view, Tarthang Tulku is not only exhibiting awareness of Zone 2, 3, and 4 disciplines, he is encouraging use of the knowledge of these fields in transformative spiritual inquiry.  He does not appear to be encouraging actual memetic development in the service of relative emancipation, and that would be a short-coming from a fully Integral perspective, but he is acknowledging that structures of consciousness develop in time and history, and is pointing to the “loosening” and opening that can take place when we are able to take our own structure as “object.”


Tarthang Tulku: “Within the social, cultural, historical, and mental patterns that shape the 'known world', a structure operates that is far less solid than we usually imagine.  Objects enter our lives in the course of an unfolding series of events, like actors who appear on stage, play a role for a time, and then depart. Despite appearances, the roles that the actors occupy - the patterns into which 'things' fall and the stories about them - are a matter of interpretation, not substance.”


His comments here (and throughout his writings) reflect, to me, at least a postmodern grasp of the fundamental role of interpretation in the establishment of our “worlds,” and a perspective which is consonant with the groundlessness of AQAL space posited by Integral Postmetaphysics.


Tarthang Tulku:  “An inquiry into the inner structure of this world we take for granted begins with our own being and history, and with the 'things' and patterns with which we interact.  Perhaps we focus on a table on which are resting some books or papers. The table is located quite specifically in space and time.  It has a history that can be traced back physically (UR), socially (LR), culturally (LL), and economically (LR); it has meaning (UL/LL) in our lives that depends on the linguistic structures that let us identify it, the ways in which we have put it to use, and the associations we bring to it.


In the same way, whatever is now in existence has a history and reflects dimensions of structure, meaning, and value. Because these dimensions relate as well to 'our' being as 'narrator' and 'owner', an inquiry that embraces them can teach us where we come 'from' and where we are 'going'. We can ask how the past led to the present, how we make models and structure experience, and how we project the past toward the future. We can educate ourselves so that patterns open up, stimulating an active, creative intelligence. Through such inquiry we discover that knowledge is available here and now, freeing us from the need to freeze accumulated understanding into a position for fear of losing it.”


An article by Mark Edwards, I believe, describes developing an “AQAL sensibility” - an aliveness to the multidimensionality of lived experience as it unfolds and evolves in history.  Tarthang Tulku seems to be evoking a very similar sensibility here, describing the fluid responsiveness and sensitivity that emerges when we inquire into and awaken to all of these dimensions of Being, this creative interplay of time, space, and knowledge. 


Again, because he is writing from the perspective of a particular contemplative/transformative vehicle, his emphasis is primarily on how exploration of these things may affect us personally, awakening a creative and responsive intelligence and deepening our understanding and relationship to time, space, and knowledge (a transformation which I believe Wilber would describe in terms of state access and stabilization). 


The rest of the excerpt, in fact, deals primarily with the “effects” of engaging in a free and open inquiry into all of these dimensions of embodied human existence in time and space.  Deepening insight into these dynamics - which are multidimensional, mutually enacting, shaped by interpretation, temporally bound in particular structures (which may be opened and transcended) - introduces us directly to the main subjects of concern in TSK, the dynamic, creative, open ground of Being as expressed through the interplay of time, space, and knowledge.


In my conversation with Ken, while he encouraged exploring and further developing TSK from an Integral perspective, he warned me not to read too much into TSK - because otherwise such an exercise would likely encourage Buddhists to remain complacent about their current perspectives, failing to fully acknowledge or value relative structural development and the trajectory of relative emancipation that entails.  In my view, while TSK, as a vehicle, does exhibit awareness of AQAL space and the postmodern critique of ontology and metaphysics - as I've tried to demonstrate in this thread - its focus is not really on encouraging relative development per se.  An Integral TSK would place more emphasis in this area - and some writers in the TSK tradition have begun to do this* - but I believe the shift would be a relatively small one, since these dimensions are already explicitly acknowledged within the primary TSK texts themselves.


With that said, I also think that TSK provides one living example of how an “Integrally informed” transformative path of inquiry can wed investigation of multiple fields of knowledge to depth-oriented, “absolute” emancipatory practices in the service of personal transformation.


Best wishes,

Balder Page_add reply to post  Comments_add reply to thread  Printer print  Email send   World_link permalink
 

Re: Absolute and Relative Emancipation in TSK and Integral

Patrick [no longer around] said Apr 4, 2007, 2:24 PM:

 

Thank you Balder for this analysis and bringing this topic. I think it is of major importance.

First of all let me say wre I'm at:

My knowledge and understanding  of TSK  is near to zero. I've bought the book, and I started a week ago the Giant body exercise. I've been meditating for 15 years, but with a different approach. I include the giant body exercise at the beginning of my meditation and then I go on with my practice.

In many ways, Tarthang Tulku's words sound familiar, as I believe is the case for many other practitioners of different paths.

Then, as you showed it, his texts shows that he is considering things from an AQAL perspective.

But the question is, does the technique bring one to an AQAL perspective? When I refer to the “technique” I mean what I've read in the book.

And it's here that I have difficulties. I believe the techniques exposed in the book would be considered zone 1 - meditative techniques.

One could say that tarthang Tulku's text exhibits an AQAL perspective, but that he might have come to this point of view not by his technique, but by contact with zone 2: beeing in the west, studying philosophers and so on. He may have grown an AQAL perspective not due to  the meditative technique, but through other means. Now this is of course an hypothesis.

Now the question for me is the following: All meditation techniques are considered zone 1. But are not these two experiences very different:
1) thinking (zone 1)
2) seeing the thought process.(zone ?)

The second point is a very different experience, and as I've understood it, they would both be classified zone 1-meditation techniques.  But those process are so different
in their perspective that I just can't put them in the same zone or perspective.

It could be that meditation is a zone 1 and 2 process. And the shadow? Yes of course, but what if meditation was a zone 2 process of the self in the here and now? Meditation helps us disidentify with the “I am a body, emotions and thoughts”. Psychotherapy or shadow work could be then a zone 2 practice of the transcended and included but still bruised selve.
Two techniques aiming for the same zone, but different stratas of the self.

I would need some help on that one.

But basically my idea is that i can't resign myself to accept KW's idea that meditation is a zone 1 technique and that it fails to foster evolutive energies to other zones and quadrants.

Love to you,

Patrick

  Balder : Kosmonaut

Re: Absolute and Relative Emancipation in TSK and Integral

Balder said Apr 4, 2007, 6:41 PM:

 

Hi, Patrick,

Thanks for your letter.  I might copy a version of it over to the discussion on the TSK pod too, if you don't mind; or you could copy it there yourself, for others who are reading on that pod to follow.

If I had to name TSK's primary “technique,” I would say it is “free and open inquiry” rather than meditation.  I think there's an important difference here, because while many of TSK's exercises are classical “meditation” techniques (phenomenological introspection and discursive inquiry/reflection), TSK encourages using all human faculties and being open to all fields of knowledge.  TSK teachers emphasize that TSK is not just a collection of techniques, with the books understood as commentaries on the techniques; the inquiries and explorations in the books are seen as essential complements to the exercises, having their own value and role.  The method of open inquiry that TSK cultivates is understood as something that can impact and deepen any knowledge discipline, since all paradigms (Zones 1-8) can be understood in terms of the interplay of time, space, and knowledge, seen from different perspectives or through different focal settings.

I don't believe Tarthang Tulku is claiming that the exercises he has created (not just the ones in the first book, but all 120 of them) are capable of leading to every form of knowledge that he lists in the chapter I quoted.  I believe he learned many of the things he talks about in that chapter the same way we have:  through reading books and studying the fruits of the research of individuals in many different disciplines.  What he is saying is not that TSK leads to all this knowledge, but that all of this knowledge can be fruitfully used to further and deepen TSK inquiry.  In other words, he is saying that we can and should draw on the knowledge of the sciences and the arts (for instance), as well as the knowledge that is afforded to us through phenomenological introspective techniques, when engaging in TSK inquiry.

Does this make sense?

About the difference between thinking and watching thought:  I agree that they are different, but if I understand Wilber's use of the term, he places both in Zone 1.  Zone 2 deals with structures of consciousness that are not visible to naked introspection; it deals with patterns which are grasped when we take a “big picture view,” either gathering data from many subjects or taking a long historical view and analyzing trends.  Written in Integral Math, I expect the difference between thinking and watching thought would be clear, but for the time being, it appears Wilber still sees fit to lump both together in the same zone (1).

Take my views here with a grain of salt.  I may be wrong about this, but this is how I understand Wilber's model so far.

Best wishes,

Balder