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The Integral Pod (formerly I-I+Zaadz, or IIZ) is a discussion group (a.k.a. “pod”) for enthusiasts of the work of Ken Wilber and other proponents of integral thought. Our aim here is to provide a “We-space” for broad discussion of second-tier living, loving and learning. Please read our vision and guidelines – the ...(more)
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  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 23, 2007, 1:22 PM:

 

Have you seen the latest audio and video on IN? Check them out.

Escaping Flatland. Part 1. Tragedy, Terrorism, and the VA Tech Massacre

The Stuart Davis Show: Episode 10: The Tragedy at VA Tech

In it Ken and Stu discussed the Virginia Tech Massacre from an AQAL perspective. It's a very good intellectual and philosophical discussion. But what struck me is that they used Steve Pavlina as an example of boomeritis due to this blog post:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/04/subjective-reality-and-nonviolence/

Yes, I think Pavlina was being very partial on this post. But it's because he's mainly focusing on the Upper-Left. So I think that Stu and Ken grossly misrepresented Pavlina's overall POV. Here are some key quotes in the Pavlina post:

“The perspective of subjective reality says the entire world — i.e. your seemingly objective physical reality — is a projection of your own consciousness.  This perspective suggests the only thing you can really change is yourself.  If you want to address the issue of violence in the world, you can only do so by turning within.  Go to work on the violence within you, and strive to become a person who embodies nonviolence.  This translates into a serious personal responsibility, more than is typically experienced with a purely objective world view.”

Note that Pavlina started his post by “The perspective of subjective reality…” This is a clear introduction that he's only talking about this perspective.

And below is the quote Stu used in his video. I've included an extra paragraph for more context.


“The subjective reality perspective suggests a different interpretation of events, and therefore a different response as well.  There is no “out there” that is separate from you.  If there’s violence in the world, it’s because there’s violence in your consciousness.  It’s because your own thoughts are disharmonious.  Within your own mind you attack yourself, splintering your consciousness and pitting some parts of yourself against the others.  This manifests in the objective world as various forms of violence.  If there’s disharmony within, there’s disharmony without.  It cannot be otherwise.

Events themselves are neutral and meaningless.  Even from a purely objective perspective, a shooting has no meaning, and it certainly isn’t tragic, since ”tragic” is a subjective human label.  Our thoughts and emotions provide the meaning.  If you say an event is tragic, that’s the reality you’ll experience.  But there’s no objective universal law that’s labeling these events as such.  You’re picking the labels because the events are reflections of thoughts you resist just as much.  And if you feel the need for social validation of your own thoughts, you’ll also manifest hordes of like-minded others to back you up.  But the responsibility for your reaction still rests on your shoulders alone.

In my opinion the subjective reality interpretation is more empowering than the objective one.  I’m not suggesting that one perspective is right and the other is wrong.  I am, however, suggesting that the subjective perspective is more likely to lead to positive action that produces real change, change that actually looks good from both perspectives.  Remember that for change to occur, it must be personal.  You must change.”

My interpretation on the Pavlina article is not that he's reducing everything to the Upper Left, he's mainly highlighting one possible perspective, which is the subjective reality perspective, which is the domain of the Upper Left. No big deal about this. Even Gandhi and the Buddha talked about it.

I remember when I was in the loft with Wilber, someone asked him, how do we solve all the suffering in the world? Wilber's answer was, “wake up.” He goes on to say that *this* life is like a dream so when you wake up, the dream disappears and so all the suffering in this dream too. But of course, that's only true for the subjective part of reality–the Upper-Left. So in that context, Ken was also being partial.

So my gripe is, Pavlina could be an ally since he's familiar with the Integral Model but I-I/IN is alienating him like he's a New Age freak job. Why don't they have a dialogue with him the way they dialogued with partial peeps like Deepak Chopra, Bill Harris, and more partial peeps they featured on Integral Naked?

They blew it on this one. Pavlina have millions of visitors on his website. An interview with him could've given I-I/IN more exposure. Why do they have to be so freakin' antagonistic and right all the time? Where is the skillful means? Jeesh. IMHO, that's not very fluffy!

~C

  Hokai : In Absentia

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Hokai said Apr 23, 2007, 3:08 PM:

 

Not to defend Stu and Ken, but you're not quite right here:-) Even if you believe Pavlina is “mainly highlighting one possible perspective, which is the subjective reality perspective, which is the domain of the Upper Left”, this phrase subjective reality is actually another name for “my ego consciousness creates all reality, because my reality IS all reality”. This has absolutely nothing to do with One Mind creating Reality in all four quads, that Mind being the Source and Ground of the whole AQAL.

Further on, since you quoted Ken when he was talking of waking up - awakening is NOT “only true for the subjective part of reality”, because awakening is the recognition of absolute reality, and that is the nature of all reality-domains or quadrants as we know them. Sorry, bro, but you're making the same mistake as Pavlina, confusing the timeless Spirit with temporal subjectivity. When we say Spirit is absolute subjectivity, it's a paradox, since subjectivity is never really absolute. We could have said absolute objectivity just as easily, and Buddhism does mostly that. Or absolute intersubjectivity, or whatever. But the word absolute is key here, and no amount of clever psychologizing is going to make One Mind fit into the personal subjective perspective and create the whole world, so that, “Events themselves are neutral and meaningless”. That is madness! Events are NEVER neutral and meaningless. Facts are NEVER out there, running around on their own. Such events don't exist. Events always arise in perspectives, and perspectives provide interpretations. There are all sorts of interpretations, of course. And I'm glad we could exchange two different ones. Keep it up!

Hokai


  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 23, 2007, 4:25 PM:

 

my dear Hokai. i think a better way to approach this is to ask Pavlina himself what his perspectives on integral matters are. we can argue about this ad infinitum but it wouldn't advance the discussion one bit. like i said, Pavlina is familiar with integral theory, and have read Integral Spirituality. so i'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has an understanding of integral theory like we do.

ok. assuming that you, Ken, and Stu are right, how does this help I-I's cause? does this advance integral consciousness one bit?

what i'm trying to say is, Pavlina is very accessible online. it would've been much better if they engaged Pavlina in a dialogue to get to his interiors than to treat him like a New Age freak who's ignorant of the integral model.

~C

  melv : new father

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

melv said Apr 23, 2007, 4:49 PM:

 
 

Hokai

Not to defend Stu and Ken, but you're not quite right here:-) Even if you believe Pavlina is “mainly highlighting one possible perspective, which is the subjective reality perspective, which is the domain of the Upper Left”, this phrase subjective reality is actually another name for “my ego consciousness creates all reality, because my reality IS all reality”. This has absolutely nothing to do with One Mind creating Reality in all four quads, that Mind being the Source and Ground of the whole AQAL.

While i havent read many of the articles you are referring to, i would question the statement 'this phrase subjective reality is actually another name for ''my ego consciousness creates all reality''

What if its the authentic true self that is speaking through the subjective self, which lets face it all the most of us are currently capable of. I agree that the Upper left is incomplete if taken in isolation, that does not invalidate its contribution.

  Balder : Kosmonaut

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Balder said Apr 23, 2007, 5:19 PM:

 

Ken and Stu mention that they wished they knew what sorts of things Cho was writing.  Maybe they know now, but I found a link to one of his plays:

Richard McBeef

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

timelody said Apr 23, 2007, 5:41 PM:

 

Okay, I don't mean to be flippant here, I really don't, but I just don't have a lot of time to submit a full post right now - but …


Pavlina says if ”you feel the need for social validation of your own thoughts, you'll also manifest hordes of like-minded others to back you up.”


If it is possible for us to manifest hordes of like-minded others so easily, then why should we be concerned about Ken and Stu reaching out to millions through Pavlina? Why not just manifest hordes of Integral folk with our thought labels and cut out the middle-man?



  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 23, 2007, 5:50 PM:

 

because integral folks could use more skillful marketing instead of just left and right bashing.

~C

  MrTeacup : Celestial Accounts Receivable Dept.

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

MrTeacup said Apr 23, 2007, 5:49 PM:

 

This is unnecessary word-parsing. Pavlina has made his beliefs pretty clear:

Subjective reality is an integrated belief system where consciousness and awareness are primary.  They are the container in which everything else exists.  And I do mean EVERYTHING… In a truly subjective universe, there is nothing outside your own consciousness

To me, Pavlina seems almost triumphant about his reductiveness. When he says, ”I’m not suggesting that one perspective is right and the other is wrong,” I think two things: First, that this is a very pure specimen of classic Green pluralism, and second, that Pavlina is making this move because many of his readers are fairly conventional personal development/empowerment types and subjective reality is quite controversial with them.

This is part of what's frustrating about talking to Green. If you feel strongly about something, they will do everything they can to include you, even to the point of holding contradictory viewpoints. The main goal is to not offend people, so they try to maintain a delicate balancing act where all viewpoints are equally valid. But come back a week later and you'll find them delicately balancing a completely different set of beliefs that upsets the balance of the last set. If you push it, you might get them to give up and admit that the whole thing is a house of cards, but they'll still just say that all viewpoints are equal, so at least in principle, there must be some way of doing it!

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 23, 2007, 5:55 PM:

 

“This is part of what's frustrating about talking to Green.”

what's frustrating is that IN didn't talk to Pavlina about this.

“If you feel strongly about something, they will do everything they can to include you, even to the point of holding contradictory viewpoints.”

um, i think I-I is guilty of this too. just ask the Wilber critics out there.

my two cents.

~C

  MrTeacup : Celestial Accounts Receivable Dept.

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

MrTeacup said Apr 23, 2007, 7:06 PM:

 

I-I is unlike Pavlina in that these contradictory viewpoints are not caused by a fascination with relativism.

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

timelody said Apr 23, 2007, 10:02 PM:

 

 

Okay, I get it.


On the one hand  you have a national tragedy that has the hearts and minds and attention of the nation and maybe the world-or at least a good portion of it. There's an energy behind it, involved in it, etc. and in that energy, as is often the case there is a potential opportunity.


On the next hand you have The Secret No. 1 on the New York Times bestsellers list and so there is a real interest and attention and an energy behind and involved in that.


Somewhere related to that is Steve Pavlia and the millions of followers at his website and blog.


So your reasoning, if I am understanding it correctly, is that it is possible to take a creative step back and potentially use this opportunity skillfully -don't bash, dialogue and get into that pot which could potentially result in a lot of things for the better all around.


Don't know that I could state it in words, don't know that it's even necessary, but if I am understanding you correctly, I see it. I can see where you are coming from and how, indeed, this could appear as a sorely missed opportunity for many good and positive things. And when I say “appear” don't read too much into that -I really do see it and believe I understand what you're talking about, and right there, there it is.


But my feelings about the potential of all that began to change when I began to write this above -and since that was so I saved it for here:


The two [The Secret interest and the VTech interest] put together in many, many ways violently clash and so there is a real potentially abrasive sort of potentially explosive energy in that coupling as well.


I wrote that when I was trying to trace all of the potential energy. That is, the potential energy and attention and interest and so on that could make this a big, good thing. But when I started to write that something changed … This is a terrible, terrible sort of energy clash; there is just so much madness, suffering and delusion in it; so much sorrow and tragedy … To put those two together does not make me feel all that excited about the energy and opportunity for potentially good things. It is a tragedy on top of a tragedy … I don't know that that's the time and place for even what appears to be skillful -and now I have to put it in quotes- “marketing.” There's a black hole in there …there is a black hole in this culture … and I think it just has to eventually be accepted that black hole and truly bad things exist. Lemons that can not be made into lemonade. Suffering that is just tragic suffering and it's not a time for anything but to stand in sorrow at the suffering … and confusion … and suffering …


I did have a host of other thoughts I believe highly worth considering in terms of the viability and potential outcomes of this idea from an objective marketing standpoint - such things as the risk of “marketing” under false pretenses and/or the potential of that being the result even if it was not intended; the potential watering down of AQAL Integral if in certain ways if it would “catch on to a Steve Pavlia crowd;” the potential eventual negative backlash due to both of those and the ultimate result that it was just a wrong move and not really so skillful because now those that might have been interested are not so much anymore due to this; those who might have been helped are skeptical and suspiscious; green meme “wins” anyway because any idea that lots of more people are going to be prompted into an Integral consciousness is sorely premature …etc.


But, well, I don't know. I just feel the sorrow I mentioned above …and it just might be more ethically sincere to state a sincere position on the matter -as was done. And why might that not be better and more genuine and authentic in the long run anyway? Quality before quantity. Alwyas. And if not, again, I'm not so sure it's necessary or even possible to care about Integral goals and potential marketing interests in that sense, in light of all that is really going on  … .


What do you think?

Peace, Tim

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said Apr 23, 2007, 11:17 PM:

 

I don't necessarily think that Ken and Pavlina should dialogue about Virginia Tech, the topic is still much too sensitive, and those affected should be left alone to grieve.

But a dialogue would be great. What would Steve Pavlina actually say in front of an Integral audience? Let him show us his true colors once and for all.

BTW, you can accuse S Pavlina of a lot of things, if accusing floats your boat, but he does not say that your ego consciousness creates reality, nor does he say that the world is an extension of the ego. He says that reality is a projection of consciousness (Spirit). This is not to say that he doesn't have different beliefs than Ken, because he does. So does Bohm and other people, but that does not automatically make them 100% green.

Steve Pavlina talks about levels of consciousness, states, types and lines of development. Regardless of his use of green-ish language that does suggest an integral cognition. Having an integral cognition with a lot of green values intact is not rare within the integral movement either; quite the contrary actually: the mode of discourse if often green while discussing Integral ideas. So let's not get carried away within our Integral Island.

We can talk about this for ages but we'll never know exactly where Pavlina stands until he gets a chance to explain himself. If Deepak Chopra could appear on IN it wouldn't be revolutionary to bring Pavlina on, after all he has explicitly stated that he knows about Integral theory.


Pelle

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said Apr 24, 2007, 5:24 AM:

 

Ok, I've now read the whole blog post.

There are a couple of fucked-up green paragraphs, especially this one

The subjective reality perspective suggests a different interpretation of events, and therefore a different response as well.  There is no “out there” that is separate from you.  If there’s violence in the world, it’s because there’s violence in your consciousness.  It’s because your own thoughts are disharmonious.  Within your own mind you attack yourself, splintering your consciousness and pitting some parts of yourself against the others.  This manifests in the objective world as various forms of violence.  If there’s disharmony within, there’s disharmony without.  It cannot be otherwise.


It's possible that S Pavlina doesn't mean this in a green, egocentric way - but the writing is still ambiguous (and confusing!) enough to be irresponsible, IMO.


But there are also much more balanced paragraphs, for example this one:

When viewed in the right light, the subjective and objective perspectives can be congruent.  You just have to understand that a subjective change always precedes an objective change.  It’s ineffective to attempt to force an external change without making the internal change.  For example, it would make little sense for me to attack violence in the world as long as I still have unresolved violence within me.  Fighting violence with violence only begets more violence.  However, the very act of addressing the internal violence is what manifests the external solution.

This seems like very sound advice for those who still haven't started focusing on their interiors and their inner life.


So my conclusion is still the same as C4's… let Ken interview S Pavlina and ask him the tough questions


Pelle

  kessels : soul-journer

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

kessels said Apr 24, 2007, 5:57 AM:

 

I agree with you on your last post, Pelle.

I also agree that in order to find out Pavlina's center of gravity, it would help if you'd to talk to the guy, but I'm not sure if I'm even interested in where his center actually is.

What Pavlina seems to be doing, at least in his blog, is to apply absolute truth to the relative realm. First he warns us not to make that mistake, and then he goes on to do just that…

He clearly gives much more weight to the subjective side of the street, which I can't consider to be integral. It's a form of subtle reductionism.

Peter


 

  kessels : soul-journer

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

kessels said Apr 24, 2007, 6:49 AM:

 

…which is to say that I totally agree with Hokai on this. (Sorry, wasn't paying full attention.)

Peter

  Grey : Integral Ideator (I-I)

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Grey said Apr 25, 2007, 12:45 AM:

 

Definitely. I mean, you may be able to tease some truths out of that paragraph Pelle says is more balanced (i.e. interior development is important, but that's about all you can say for that paragraph IMO), but I'm not sure I'd agree that a subjective change “always” precedes an objective change, at least not the way Pavlina seems to be using the term “subjective” here.  Just because I have some violence “issues” in me doesn't mean that I can't control them and use efforts towards objective change as a sort of therapy or whatever. In other words, interior and exterior development arise “together” and not necessarily interior first, then exterior.  Or no?

If we're talking “subjective” as in the true Self, OK, but that doesn't appear to be what Pavlina is doing here.  Sounds to me like he's still promoting The Secret and the Law of Attraction.

FWIW

Grey

  Grey : Integral Ideator (I-I)

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Grey said Apr 25, 2007, 12:48 AM:

 

BTW, just wanted to point out for anyone who doesn't follow his blog closely that Stuart has also blogged about his latest episode in order to better explain his views on Pavlina's Virginia Tech blog.

Cheers,
Grey

  melv : new father

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

melv said Apr 24, 2007, 4:24 PM:

 

I still have a lot to learn with the integral model…

What exactly do you mean by subjectivity, especially in relation to the upper right?

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said Apr 25, 2007, 2:39 AM:

 


What Stuart says is true but hardly revolutionary for anybody half familiar with Integral Theory. The best part about his blog post is that he uses a language that is accessible even for non-Integralites, so let's hope some green spiritual practitioners read it. Personally I believe this is something that Integral people have to do a lot more: spreading ideas and sowing integral seeds in people's minds using everyday language.

For a couple of months now I've been claiming that S Pavlina has a teal cognition but mostly green values/spirituality. No big deal, that's where he's at. Some of what he writes is highly offensive to Integral persons (or even to most people), but in other areas he's actually one of the forces that is busting loose from the green swamp.

Green interpretations of the Law of Attraction are usually infantile, that's why we explored it from an Integral level in this thread. If you only read Stuart's blog you might throw some babies out with the bathwater.



peace,

Pelle

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 25, 2007, 5:01 PM:

 

“Personally I believe this is something that Integral people have to do a lot more: spreading ideas and sowing integral seeds in people's minds using everyday language.”

couldn't agree more :)  and here's my favorite quote.

Think like a wise man but communicate in the language of the people.

William Butler Yeats : Irish poet, playwright & mystic, winner of Nobel prize in 1923
William Butler Yeats (1865 - 1939)



~C

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

adastra said Apr 25, 2007, 5:41 PM:

 

For the record, I'm thoroughly disgusted with the Steve Pavlina blog entry being discussed here, and Stuart Davis did a good job of expressing why, so I'll just quote the above-mentioned Stuart Davis blog in full here and save people the trouble of clicking on it.  :p

~~~~~~

Virginia Tech Massacre / Stuart Davis Show

This week the Stuart Davis Show focused on the shootings at Virginia Tech. In the spirit of love, the show is intended as a memorial to the victims as their families. In it, various causes and reactions to the shooting are explored, from different perspectives (subjective, objective, inter-subjective, and inter-objective), and distinct altitudes of awareness. I attempted to offer a slightly more integral view to this profoundly painful event.

In the episode, I pause at one moment to highlight what I found to be an example of the worst interpretation / response to the tragic massacre; Steve Pavlina's blog response. Since my show is short, I did not have the time to quote Steve's blog fully, and I also did not want to make the episode about him, but rather keep the focus on the victims, their families, and the shooting. Here, on my site, I'd like to to provide people a look at Steve's full comments, so they can read for themselves the larger context of his comments, and have a fuller picture.

Here is a lengthy quote of Steve Pavlina's blog:

Begin quote:

Here’s one possible subjective interpretation of a seemingly violent external event:

Notice the event. From a subjective standpoint, if you don’t notice the event — if it never reaches your awareness — it never happened.

Notice your emotional reaction to the event, if any. How does it make you feel?

Accept responsibility for what you’ve created. You and you alone are 100% responsible for manifesting this. Not the shooter. Not the victims. Just you. If you observe violence in your reality, it’s because you’re harboring violent thoughts within you. On some level you’re fighting with yourself. Your emotional reaction is a pointer to the inner relationship. For example, if you’re outraged by violence, it’s because you’re resisting and repressing the violence within you. Describe your reaction to the external event, and you’ll have a good description of the internal situation that spawned it.

Interpret the event. How is this event a projection of your thoughts? You are the dreamer of this reality. Why are you having this dream? What are the main symbols, and what do they mean? Is there a lesson here, and if so, what is it? For example, if you perceive people getting killed in the world, then what part of your consciousness have you been trying to kill? Is there some part of you that you refuse to accept and just want to die?

Change your thinking. If you found this event unpleasant and feel a need for something to change in the world, then what must you change within yourself? How can you become the change you’d like to see in the world?

When I started dabbling in subjective reality, at first it was overwhelming to consider that I could be creating everything in my reality, but after a while I understood how the subjective perspective pushed me to grow a lot more. My perspective has me assuming responsibility for everything in my experience. So I wouldn’t say the Virginia Tech shootings were anybody’s responsibility but my own. From my perspective I manifested the whole thing, and how I respond is my responsibility and my choice.

I won’t go into great depth on this — that would require a whole other article — but I can easily interpret the Virginia Tech shooting as a dream in a way that’s meaningful for me. For example, the key numbers (age 19, 33 dead) are significant for me. At age 19 I made a decision to turn my life around while sitting in a jail cell (as explained in podcast #1), and at age 33 I launched StevePavlina.com. The shooting occurred at the tail end of a weekend Erin and I spent in Sedona, Arizona, which unearthed and eventually resolved a lot of internal conflict about certain upcoming decisions. I don’t see this event as tragic in any way. It doesn’t cause me to feel outrage, a desire to see people punished, a sense of addiction to the drama. It just is.

I’m sure I’ll get the usual flood of outrage email for saying this, but to me this event is perfect, and to observe it creates no resistance within me. I expect that only a handful of people reading this can understand that perspective. I know the outrage bandwagon is far more socially acceptable, and my refusal to hop on board will perhaps create outrage for my not being outraged. I can accept that too.”

End quote.

Here are the specific items I found offensive, especially considering they were posted hours after the Virginia Massacre:

- “You and you alone are 100% responsible for manifesting this. Not the shooter. Not the victims. Just you. If you observe violence in your reality, it’s because you’re harboring violent thoughts within you.”

In this context, hours after a massacre, it is incredibly insensitive and dismissive to post such a comment. It dismisses the unspeakable loss and pain being experienced by countless thousands. Instead of taking the moment as an opportunity to engage the suffering of victims and families, Steve Pavlina took the opportunity to frame the whole thing as a subjective game, a play-thing of the imagination.

-“You are the dreamer of this reality. Why are you having this dream?”

NO. The ego, the level of subjectivity that craves, that desires, that conspires to acquire power, status, and success IS NOT THE DREAMER OF REALITY. The Infinite subject is, the Ground of All Being. The ego is an ephemeral feature of reality, not the source of it. And it is Kosmic Narcissism to suggest it is, much less train people in how to concretize that delusion.

-“So I wouldn’t say the Virginia Tech shootings were anybody’s responsibility but my own.”

Wow. That's what you want to give to the World, in the hours where people are utterly destroyed, when the culture is an open wound? You want to use your magic bag of subjectivity to claim responsibility for a massacre, which you conceived as a toy for your self to process? Offensive and hurtfuly, if you ask me.

-“I don’t see this event as tragic in any way. It doesn’t cause me to feel outrage, a desire to see people punished, a sense of addiction to the drama. It just is.”

Then you are every bit as dissociated as the murderer. Again, hours after REAL PEOPLE were murdered, hours after REAL suffering exploded in the heart of our society, this is the kind of poison you want to post on your blog? That it's all a meaningless construct of your dissociated ego (which I noticed by perusing your sight, is simultaneously engaged in empire building and acheivement-driven enterprise). I am dumbfounded. Baffled. And deeply offended.

In my episode, I frame Steve Pavlina in a negative light, and I want to make sure it's clear why.

1, I understand that in his mind, he was taking a perspective in that blog (Subjective). In my mind, he was taking a perspective too far, at the worst possible time. In typical new age fashion, he took a very important key (subjective interiority) and turned it upside down. Instead of the transparent Subjectivity of the Self (the key), he shrunk the view into the New Age Narcissism that is so trendy. In this subjectivity, whatever you see becomes a tootsie roll. In this view, your subject is the source and creator of all reality. You manifest the Kosmos with your thoughts. Instead of having a subject so LARGE it sees (correctly) that the ego is a feature of relative reality, Steve Pavlina's version of subjectivity makes the Ego the ground of reality, the creator of it. What does Steve Pavlina, the Maker of All Things feel in this position? Nothing. The shooting at Virginia Tech is meaningless to him. This is dissociative, not transcendent. This is the suffocating self, not the Infinite Self. And in my view, Steve Pavlina is taking the key, the Infinite Self, and re-packaging it for consumption by voracious egos. Same trick the Secret used, which I've written about at length in this blog.

2, I am not against ego. I think everyone should have their own Pope-Mobile. My bread and butter is rock 'n roll, the Temple of Shallows. There is NOTHING wrong with shallow. The ego is not going anywhere, we cannot kill it, we should not kill it. We should see it for what it is. And that's the problem with new age narcissism. It puts the Ego in the position of the Kosmic Subject, then denies that it's ego. Even though this new kosmic subject is using every imaginable magical technique to get rich, to acquire power and influence, to gain status and ornamentation. COME ON. Just call a spade a spade. I, Stuart Davis, want to get rich too. I want to be popular, good lucking, well adorned. But I don't pretend it's Godhead that does all this clutching and desperate acquiring. It's fucking EGO. And ego is not evil, or wrong. Until you let it go masquerading as Spirit. Then you get calamity. And that is what The Secret and its various permutations are up to. That's what Steve Pavlina is doing, running this acheivement, success-factory of a web site, and masquerading as Spirituality. Let it be what it is. You can just build a successful business, you don't have to tell people their thoughts create reality. It is a double disservice, burdening the ego with a Spirit it cannot house in any healthy way, while simultaneously allowing people to bypass authentic spirituality (why spend decades developing your interiority when you can just “think” a Universe into being, when you can manipulate the contours of all reality with the frontal strucure?)

3, Most importantly, Steve Pavlina used the Virginia Tech massacre as an opportunity to advertise this brand of spiritual bypass and dissociation. Hours after this unspeakable tragedy, he chose to post what was easily the most inflammatory, disgusting commentary I read on the event. Actually, the only inflammatory commentary I read on the event.

4, I am passionate and committed to engaging all altitudes of awareness, all domains of reality, in myself and others. And not in a condescending way. Let orange be orange. Let Amber be Amber, Red be Red, and so on. But I won't stand by without comment when some asshole uses the unspeakable suffering of others to showcase dissociative talents (on what is clearly acheivement-driven site). That is disgusting, and that has to be called out.

That said, I don't hate Steve Pavlina. I still consider him a brother in the Mystery. I just hate what he did with the massacre. I just hate the way he collapsed the Upper Left Quadrant (subjective reality) into megalomania, and did so in the open wound of others. I'm not being holier than though. Lord knows I have made countless painful blunders, publicly. I've been an asshole many many times, and I'm not out of the woods yet, if you know what I mean. But we have got to put an end to this kind of new age narcissism. It's making things worse. Don't worry about the Secret and the way in which you magically create reality with your thoughts. Sink into the slow, messy struggle that is love, and the immense responsibility we have to each other.


  Jane : riversong

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Jane said Apr 26, 2007, 4:37 AM:

 

Stuart writes: “NO. The ego, the level of subjectivity that craves, that desires, that conspires to acquire power, status, and success IS NOT THE DREAMER OF REALITY. The Infinite subject is, the Ground of All Being. The ego is an ephemeral feature of reality, not the source of it. And it is Kosmic Narcissism to suggest it is, much less train people in how to concretize that delusion…..
” Just call a spade a spade. I, Stuart Davis, want to get rich too. I want to be popular, good lucking, well adorned. But I don’t pretend it’s Godhead that does all this clutching and desperate acquiring. It’s fucking EGO. And ego is not evil, or wrong. Until you let it go masquerading as Spirit. Then you get calamity.”

I don’t watch the news, and I only occassionally even go the Google News…So this event, is very far from me in a sense. The massacre of 33 people at Virginia Tech is a sad, sad event, and that sadness will reverberate in lives for a long, long time.

Still this morning, when I consider the cause and effect linear events that led up to this event, I am sure I would find a young man, caught, to use Stuart Davis’s words, in the ‘calamity’ of his own ego. And I would further find that he was also caught by in the larger calamity of the communal ego which supported the calamitous intention of his ego, and by this I mean the guns, the appareil, the multi-media feeds, the college millieu, the little Korean children working in sweat shops making consummer goods for the world’s consumption, the international US-Korean relations, the apparent lack of the miracle of ‘we’.

The thing is, contrary to what Stuart claims, EGO (even ‘calamitous ego insisting on playing out its horror script’) is SPIRIT. It is fair to say that acting from ego ‘as if it is not Spirit’ (even from the bold declaration of wanting to be a rich rock star, and ‘ego is good’ kind of honesty) inevitably brings the very calamity it so seeks to avoid. In turn, the ensuing calamity, itself, creates a self-returning storyline that in the end of the day, regardless of our resistance, will bring us back to Spirit. Further ‘Nothing is itself without everything else.’ ‘We become what we abhor.’ ‘That which we resist persists.’ And as if stymied and trapped in the extreme by our storyline, Reacting to Calamity creates more Calamity.

The Night is Dark, granted. The storylines get very complicated, become generational, become very dense. They fractionate, tangle, suck up and appear to destroy lives and energy and goodwill, and loving kindness just like the Typhoonigator, in Mercer Mayer’s One Monster after Another. The illusion of horror is created. The storyline of horror, the living horror that we experience, is very convincing. I have witnessed my fill of it. And as convincing as this is, we need to look deeply, and see through it.

Another confounding, yet utter, truth is: “Peace is not the destination, Peace is the Way.” Figuring out what this really means is our present task. Witnessing, resonating, gentling,through all of it, ALL of it…..staying the course, staying centered, staying in peace…no matter what, with every stone unturned…. this is life in the eye of the needle, peering through the clarified lens of perception, to the arising of the miracle of what is, of Life, of God.

And, further, it needs to be said, at the end of the day, tumblin’ and stumblin’, we are ALL comin’ home to God. We never left God in the first place. This is the adventure we are on….”to return to where we started, and know the place for the first time.” and “no matter where you go, there you are.”

And nobody said this was easy…..but it is infinitely easier than the calamitous alternative.

So, even as I cringe, and hope, and feel fear and dread, I repeat that beautiful prayer of ee cummings–

“Oh thank you god
For most this amazing day.
For the leaping greenlie spirits of trees,
For the blue true dream of sky,
For everything which is natural,
Which is infinite,
Which is Yes.”

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 26, 2007, 1:32 AM:

 

Paul Salamone has a good post in response to Stuart's blog. here's the link:

http://psalamone.zaadz.com/blog/2007/4/stuart_davis_vs_steve_pavlina

i think Paul articulated very well my position on this.

here's one thing i noticed though: most of the people (like me and Paul) who are easy on Pavlina are those who are long-time readers of his blog. the reason for this i think is because we've seen more dimensions of the blogging persona of Pavlina than those who criticize him based on a few blog posts.

but anyway, here's to the mystery…

~C

P.S. check out Pavlina's post, Spiritual Depth Perception. i think it's very fluffy :)

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

adastra said Apr 26, 2007, 8:34 AM:

 

c4chaos: Paul Salamone has a good post in response to Stuart's blog. here's the link:

http://psalamone.zaadz.com/blog/2007/4/stuart_davis_vs_steve_pavlina

i think Paul articulated very well my position on this.

here's one thing i noticed though: most of the people (like me and Paul) who are easy on Pavlina are those who are long-time readers of his blog. the reason for this i think is because we've seen more dimensions of the blogging persona of Pavlina than those who criticize him based on a few blog posts.

but anyway, here's to the mystery…

~C

P.S. check out Pavlina's post, Spiritual Depth Perception. i think it's very fluffy :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey Rommel

Well, Steve-o has managed to evoke disgust from me twice now (the first time was the “Secret” (shhhh!) promotion stuff - so he has a task ahead of him if he wants to win my heart and/or mind.  And I'm disinclined to read through his blog based on what I've seen so far - I don't even have enough time to read the many offerings on this pod lately.

But hey, if you've got some spiraliffic Steve Pavlina nuggets of teal goodness to share (this invite goes out to any SP fans), please do drop them in Noosphere Nougat.  :) 

spiral out,
arthur

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said Apr 26, 2007, 6:01 AM:

 

Here is the blog post C4 links to:

Stuart Davis vs. Steve Pavlina

Posted on Apr 26th, 2007 by P'SAL : PLUNGE ARTIST P'SAL

Frankly, I don’t know what to think about Stuart’s recent – and some might say over-blown – rant against “personal development for smart people” blogger Steve Pavlina.

Like most Zaadsters, I’ve been reading Pavlina for the last year or so, and have found his clear, pragmatic approach to personal development to be of tremendous value. He’s a certified geek, and seems like a really nice guy to boot. And I wouldn’t be anywhere without such classic posts as “How to Become an Early Riser” and, ahem, “10 Stupid Mistakes Made by the Newly Self-Employed”.

And even though Pavlina’s been on a New Age of kick for the last couple months (influenced in no doubt by being married to a psychic), I believe he deserves a lot better than to be labelled “every bit as dissociated as the [Virginia Tech] murderer” by Stuart. Stuart bases this accusation on his perception that Pavlina is championing the subjective ego as the creator of all reality in Pavlina’s recent comments on the VaTech slayings, “Subjective Reality and Nonviolence”. In reponse to Steve’s statement that “You are the dreamer of this reality. Why are you having this dream?” Stuart replies:

“NO. The ego, the level of subjectivity that craves, that desires, that conspires to acquire power, status, and success IS NOT THE DREAMER OF REALITY. The Infinite subject is, [sic] the Ground of All Being.”

What’s striking about Stuart’s critique is that, if one seeks out what Pavlina actually means by “subjective reality” (found here in his Q&A on subjective reality), we find a worldview strikingly similar to Stuart’s:


In subjective reality, “you” have a completely different identity. “You” are the consciousness within which everything exists — time, space, people, places, events… EVERYTHING. You are NOT a human being with a body and a mind. You are consciousness, and there happens to be a human being with a body and a mind within you. So everything you perceive must be interpreted relative to the perspective of consciousness, not from the perspective of any particular body-mind, including the one you identify as your own.

…If that’s not a perfect description of the Witness, then I don’t know what is. Here’s Stuart’s version:


The Witness is that which is aware of all that arises, but the Witness itself has no qualities, no location, no characteristics. It is aware of phenomena, it’s ever-present, without birth or death, but is aware of birth, death, and everything that goes with the collastomy bag of Being (including Bliss).

Now granted, I think Pavlina’s VaTech post is a bad representative of what he’s all about. I can see how Stuart (and Ken Wilber, for that matter) could take a couple of Pavlina’s more inept turns of phrase on “subjective reality” and confuse it with standard New Age thinking (whatever that is).

But why such vitriol? Why accuse Pavlina of such “inflammatory, disgusting commentary” for writing a cogent post which is essentially a call for self-examination and non-violence?

The cynic in me would see it as a marketing ploy: Ken and Stuart are so hell-bent on proving the necessity of the Integral Approach that they will blow anything that smells of even a hint of the dreaded Boomeritis entirely out of proportion. It’s basic marketing to find an enemy and rally the troops against him, after all.

But I know that Stuart’s heart is in the right place, and that he wants to make the world a better place, just like Steve. And, to be fair, Pavlina’s New Age schtick is getting tiresome. I’ll take the lifehacking geek who wrote “Overcoming News Addiction” over Steve the “Lightworker” any day.

But why let oneself get so triggered by a blogger? (Yes, I know I’m letting myself get triggered too ;)). I’m going to go out on a limb and say that… Pavlina touched a nerve. Like Pavlina (and myself, and maybe even you), I’m willing to bet that Stuart was not able to feel much “outrage, a desire to see people punished, a sense of addiction to the drama” himself in response to the shootings at VaTech, and I think it scared him.

In fact, to Stuart, like Pavlina and myself, I bet that VaTech was primarily something that “just is”.

And if we are to get angry at anything, it should be towards that terrifying equanimity which prevents us from feeling angry in the first place.

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said Apr 26, 2007, 6:16 AM:

 

Arthur:
Of course Steve's blog is hugely popular - he's telling a lot of people still sunk up to their eyebrows in narcissism exactly what they want to hear.  “No need to do the hard work, folks, magical thinking will take care of everything - or everything important anyway, namely YOU and your kosmically inflated ego.”

Pavlina does slip back down into green at regular intervals. Parts of the blog post we have been discussing is an example of that, and I have no problem calling a spade a spade. Green is green even if it's produced by Steve Pavlina.

But it is not accurate to claim that Steve says “No need to do the hard work, folks, magical thinking will take care of everything - or everything important anyway, namely YOU and your kosmically inflated ego.”
If you claim that then you have not read very much of his blog. Pavlina regularly talks about the hard work that is involved if you want to master any area of life. Even when he gets a green spasm fit and recommends the Secret he says that it will take you years of practice to learn to focus your intention well enough to get results in the areas of life that interest you. He also says that intention alone is not enough, you need to take action as well (duh). In that sense he is actually an antidote to the magical interpretations of the Secret.

Pavlina is a mixture of classical green and classical teal. Either you dismiss him completely because of the green stuff, or you can acknowledge the fact that he inspires people to start working hard to improve their lives and the world in general.
It's a personal choice and I'm fine with the fact the Integral folks choose different approaches to this.


peace

Pelle

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said Apr 26, 2007, 6:20 AM:

 

Jane, I just want to say that I enjoyed you free-flowing post on the Ego, the Darkness and Spirit. It made me feel into the situation, beyond rational thoughts.

peace

Pelle

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 26, 2007, 3:19 PM:

 

OK, I'm seeing what others are seeing in Pavlina now. The following comments he made might be quite troublesome, given his audience:

“You and you alone are 100% responsible for manifesting this. Not the shooter. Not the victims. Just you. If you observe violence in your reality, it's because you're harboring violent thoughts within you.”

“So I wouldn't say the Virginia Tech shootings were anybody's responsibility but my own.”

If you look at those from the perspective of the Absolute, you can make it “fit”. But I don't think his primary audience gets that. I'm quite sure of it, actually. And one MUST take into consideration the nature of the audience. BUT, here's the thing: if you don't really get that Spirit is All, and that Spirit as You manifests everything in conditioned reality, are you really going to buy what he's saying here anyway? I'm guessing that very few people actually resonated with that post, so how much harm could it have done? Don't forget that people today, especially in America (that's all I know about), have very sensitive BULLSHIT alarms. People deny truth in what others say or write all day long, even as they listen to the crap in their heads all day long with the bullshit alarm on silent mode. I just don't see Steve and this issue as that big of a deal.

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 27, 2007, 4:27 PM:

 

“I'm guessing that very few people actually resonated with that post, so how much harm could it have done? Don't forget that people today, especially in America (that's all I know about), have very sensitive BULLSHIT alarms. People deny truth in what others say or write all day long, even as they listen to the crap in their heads all day long with the bullshit alarm on silent mode. I just don't see Steve and this issue as that big of a deal.”

bingo :) and to illustrate your point, here' a link to the relevant thread on the infamous Pavlina blog post:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/steve-pavlina/6250-subjective-reality-nonviolence-blog.html

now compare the discussion there from the discussion here.

this particular thread may be more of interest to the those who think that Pavlina had lost it :)

~C

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 26, 2007, 3:44 PM:

 

On a tangent here: I was thinking about this whole Integral/Pavlina controversy the other day, and something that Ken said in Kosmic Konsciousness came up. He is giving an example of how an integrally-oriented or turquoise person would be perceived in a room with three other people: one blue (amber), one orange, and one green. All three first-tier people despise each other. When each of them is asked how they felt about the second-tier guy, they all say something to the effect of: Oh, that guy, um…he was cool. What strikes me is how the “side” that is arguing passionately about how non-integral Pavlina is would be likely viewed by people operating in first-tier as seriously annoying and anger-inducing. Now, giving the benefit of the doubt, perhaps all the rants are simply for integral eyes only, and there's got to be someplace that it's OK to rant. That's not how it seems to me, though. Anyone else get this sense?

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

adastra said Apr 26, 2007, 4:48 PM:

 

Colin: All three first-tier people despise each other. When each of them is asked how they felt about the second-tier guy, they all say something to the effect of: Oh, that guy, um…he was cool. What strikes me is how the “side” that is arguing passionately about how non-integral Pavlina is would be likely viewed by people operating in first-tier as seriously annoying and anger-inducing. Now, giving the benefit of the doubt, perhaps all the rants are simply for integral eyes only, and there's got to be someplace that it's OK to rant. That's not how it seems to me, though. Anyone else get this sense?

~~~~~~

Yeah, I've had my doubts about that one for a while actually.  It does seem that Wyatt Earpy/Kendalini Wibler may be inconsistent on this score.

arthur

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

timelody said Apr 26, 2007, 7:32 PM:

 

 

That anecdote is just a generalized example to get a particular point across -and I've seen the real thing play out in life hundred of times. But that shouldn't be taken to suppose that the turquoise dude is incapable of ever making anybody else mad. That's just silly. (And we also need to be sure to remember that “everybody is right” at one and the same time means that everybody is wrong and or partial too. Usually the reason everyone thinks the turquoise dude is cool is because he keeps his mouth shut.)

But please let me just throw something else out here that I fear might be escaping people's notice:

Well, I'll put it this way: of the 6.5 billion people in the world today, how many do you suppose are going to be in an uproar that somebody “bashed” SP's views? I think it would be safe to say that 99.99999999999999% of people would be on the side of the basher, no? It's not like Ken and Stuart are taking on the entire world in their disagreement-or even, exemplifying their being “smarter” than everyone else. Indeed, plenty of people stupider than Steve Pavlia or the “Wilber critics” would agree.

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 26, 2007, 9:26 PM:

 

But that shouldn't be taken to suppose that the turquoise dude [TD] is incapable of ever making anybody else mad. That's just silly.

No, the point isn't that the TD isn't going to make anyone mad. It's that the TD uses skillful means to communicate, and may make others mad, if they are triggered. Not a “deny-all-other possibilities, I know the absolute truth on these matters” argument style. But I suppose some of that's my shadow showing through in my read of it. In truth, though, we've seen a range of reactions to the whole “integral controversy” (Good God, aren't there better things to talk about!? We <i>blog</i> about this?), and most perspectives are balanced, not flaming (again, my read).

Stuart says: <i>What does Steve Pavlina, the Maker of All Things feel in this position? Nothing. The shooting at Virginia Tech is meaningless to him. This is dissociative, not transcendent.</i>

I doubt Steve would agree with that assessment. Actually, if I've picked up on some of his waves at all, he's probably laughing: <i>Gawd, Stewie, gotchya didn't I?</i>

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

adastra said Apr 27, 2007, 8:37 AM:

 

So, Colin, would it be fair to say that you don't feel Stu and Ken are using Right Speech in this instance? 

What does right speech mean at integral altitudes, anyway?

I'm thinking this would be a worthy discussion in it's own right, so please see the thread I just started: Integral Communication/”Right Speech”?

cheers
arthur

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 27, 2007, 9:22 AM:

 

<i>dammit</i>
keep forgetting about the tools…

Yes, that's what I was implicitly stating, Arthur. And that implicitly includes some others I've seen in this pod.

  Hokai : In Absentia

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Hokai said Apr 27, 2007, 1:02 PM:

 

I have given my brief account and have no inclination to elaborate in detail something that seems self-evident… But here's another take on this issue, this one by Julian Walker at  his zaadz blog. Even though Julian is being quite serious in his considerations, my favorite remark is this one:

“Now I have only two questions for Pavlina:
1) When did you go of your meds?
2) Did a writer from The Onion hack your site and post this stuff?
It's almost too good of a parody.”

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 27, 2007, 4:34 PM:

 

“Now I have  three questions for Pavlina:

1) When did you go off your meds?

2) What kind of drugs did you take instead while you were in Sedona?

3) Did a writer from The Onion hack your site and post this stuff?

It's almost too good of a parody. How do these guys get taken seriously?”



Hokai,

now that is the kind of tone that would get Pavlina into a constructive dialogue. right?

seriously, how would you engage a person if they start a conversation like that with you?

even that kind of tone and personal insults have no place in a political debate. let's all get a grip and practice what we preach about right intention, right speech, and right action.

my two cents.

~C

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

adastra said Apr 27, 2007, 9:33 PM:

 

Julian's comments may not be Right Speech (I'd say NOT) and they may not be skillful Integral Communication (NOT, again) but Steve Pavlina's Vtech blog is still offensive crap.  Just sayin'.  :)

It does sometimes seem to me that Julian is vying to be the “go-to” guy for Inflammatory Rhetoric, at least in integral circles.  Stuart Davis, step aside!

spiral out,
arthur

p.s. OTOH, everyone's arguments are equally valid and true.  Just kidding.

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 27, 2007, 10:47 PM:

 

in fairness to Julian, i wouldn't go far as saying that he's engaging in “inflammatory rhetoric.” i just think that he has a different style in trying to get his point across. but it is my opinion that his approach is not optimal with the people he's trying to sway (if indeed his purpose is to sway people).

i've seen worse “inflammatory rhetoric” when it comes to criticizing New Agey beliefs. like this blog about New Age++ for example. take note that according to the author of that blog, Wilber fits the New Age++ category.

talk about right speech! ah well…

~C

  Hokai : In Absentia

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Hokai said Apr 28, 2007, 4:11 AM:

 

Hi, ~C4.
“Hokai, now that is the kind of tone that would get Pavlina into a constructive dialogue. right?”
Of course not. But I don't think that's what Julian was hoping to do. Those remarks are still my favorite in the post, however, not as a “philosophical” position, but as a spirited, humorous reply to something that can hardly be approached in a respectful tone, where it not for the grave consequences of such secretish views.

“seriously, how would you engage a person if they start a conversation like that with you?”
Honestly, again, I don't think this is an attempt at conversation. But why should we discuss Julian's views, intentions and actions here, why not comment on his entry and engage HIM there directly, as some already have.

“even that kind of tone and personal insults have no place in a political debate.”
There's a time and place for all styles of debate. Worse things happen in politics and diplomacy that may have longterm positive effects. At this point it may be neccesary to establish a somewhat stark contrast between constructive and destructive applications of aperspectival thinking, and that will certainly require a lot of humour from everyone who wish to remain in conversation. Of course, some serious bruising will take place.

“let's all get a grip and practice what we preach about right intention, right speech, and right action. my two cents. ~C”
I appreciate your generous effort to give everyone an equal hearing. I really do. Ultimately , however, relativizing takes us only so far. Calling as spade a spade IS right speech, and it implies a position, NOT an absolute truth. When we go back to the source of that very notion, i.e. right speech et al., the Buddha's advice was to speak truthfully, pleasantly, at the right time, and with a noble motivation. Each one does his best to work out all these four that often arise in tension, along with inspecting oneself. In the naive non-judgemental climate (an open attitude WITHOUT implicit moral judgement) we soon reach a point where REAL discriminations cannot be made and are readily dismissed as arogant, insensitive and shadow-driven. Julian is free to weild his sword of wisdom, and so is everyone else.

Thank you, Hokai

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 28, 2007, 8:45 AM:

 

“Ultimately , however, relativizing takes us only so far. Calling as spade a spade IS right speech, and it implies a position, NOT an absolute truth.”

good point. i agree. but actually what most of us are doing here so far is *not* relativizing, rather we're *generalizing* (e.g. making ad hominem comments on Pavlina based on a couple of blog posts). that's just natural. we make judgements and take positions all the time based on our bias and information that are available to us. all i'm saying is that our judgements of Pavlina is lacking if we don't take into account his subjective dimension (e.g. ask him questions, see how he answers them, and then form our opinion).

and besides, can we really take a position from the perspective of the Absolute? i doubt it.

~C

  Hokai : In Absentia

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Hokai said Apr 28, 2007, 9:43 AM:

 

alright, bro. but who's “we”? I'm not generalizing anything about Pavlina. If I made comments, or commented on what other people have said (like Julian and Stuart) it was always related to the one post on VA Tech and the pseudo-subjective pseudo-reality. I understand this whole business feels quite unpleasant for someone else, who may be a regular reader of Pavlina, have a developed taste for his material, and even have some sense of identification with his style of conceptualization. But, in that very broad sense, someone out there will always be upset and even hurt - whatever I say, even if I stay silent. That's not the idea of skilfull communication or right speech either.:-)

“can we really take a position from the perspective of the Absolute? i doubt it.”
Well, yes and no. Absolute is never something unavailable, something on the other side whatever that meant… If it's Absolute, then by very definition (so far as there is a definition of Absolute, we're already in the linguistic and conceptual domain) it does not have an other, so it's not a thing. There is an “other”, however (and there we go with paradoxical slang), and it's the relative. In fact, every philosopher worthy of mention has taken a position from the “perspective of the Absolute”, the perspective of non-perspective. It is a vast difference if someone does that conceptually, by twisting their mental activity into the impossible figure of thinking about everything (certainly precious if that's the only way), as opposed to someone training and liberating a capacity for stable immersion into causal and nondual states through meditation - and after emerging from that state or even during the attainment, to formulate a position on all things relative, well, that's something every spiritual master has done and done quite well. There's no doubt in my mind about that.

But I was thinking of something quite different when I mentioned the absolute truth. Even when we call spade a spade, and that neccesarily implies a position, there's no need to be threatened by such clarity, unless YOUR position is being excluded. Hence arises opposition, which is then reified as something quite absolute, or at least something very objective and existent from it's own side. And that's suffocating to any discussion.

Hokai

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 28, 2007, 10:33 AM:

 

“alright, bro. but who's “we”? I'm not generalizing anything about Pavlina. If I made comments, or commented on what other people have said (like Julian and Stuart) it was always related to the one post on VA Tech and the pseudo-subjective pseudo-reality. I understand this whole business feels quite unpleasant for someone else, who may be a regular reader of Pavlina, have a developed taste for his material, and even have some sense of identification with his style of conceptualization.”

ok fine. i just like using the “we” pronoun when generalizing :)

so let me clarify: people who think Pavlina is a New Age junkie based on that single blog post are generalizing. nothing wrong with that. we generalize to form opinion. but the generalization is lacking in this case since it doesn't include a dialogue with Pavlina.

for the record, i have no vested interest in Pavlina even tho i'm a regular reader. actually i have more vested interest on I-I/IN that's i why i expected more from them. my position has always been, I-I/IN could've done better by including Pavlina's perspective first before posting a public assessment of his blog and/or his personality. that's the part that felt quite unpleasant for me. so it's the how, not the why.

as for the Absolute, i'm the first one to tell you that i have no experiential knowledge of it. my understanding is all conceptual based on stories, second-hand accounts, books, and lectures i've encountered along the way. but if i understand the Absolute correctly, how can someone take a position from that perspective when there is no-one there to take the perspective? even those who are plugged into the Absolute from time to time have to shift “back” to relative subjectivity (intersubjectivity) to get their point across. but again. what do i know? :)

~C

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 27, 2007, 9:51 PM:

 

btw, before we all get lost in the thick of this discussion, i'd like to mention that i've watched and re-watched Stu's VA Tech video. compared to the Pavlina post, it has a more embracing look into VA shootings. props to Stu for making that video. but imho, the video stands on its own without dragging Pavlina into the mix.

as for me, i went through these stages of reaction: shock, disbelief, WTF!, empathy with the victims and their friends and families, anger and hatred toward the shooter, anger at the people using this incident to push their political agendas, compassion for the shooter, disgust with the media for feasting on the story, and then a sense of acceptance that life goes on. so i'd rather not say much about the incident.

~C

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 28, 2007, 9:32 AM:

 

I realized last night (after coffee at 8pm!) that a few threads in this pod are currently converging, and it seems to be critical, so I am attempting to flesh it out here. I come to this issue with a deep respect for all those I have named, and all those who are involved in this thread, whether peripherally or directly. This is significant work; I am honored, humbled and called to higher waves by this compassionate engagement with all that is Beautiful, Good, and True. Thanks to all who are joining in this effort.

In the Shadow thread, Liz and Lol are engaged in this:
 

Lol said (welcome back, Lol!): “But I did want to respond to Liz's question(s) … ”Here's my question for everyone: when I let the masculine agentic energy out, I get clobbered for it. This has happened enough times that I really don't question it. If we let that sort of thing flow, are y'all really ready for it? Or is it just too intense for online work? Can you accept it from a woman? Really and truly?

For me I guess it depends on how you let it out, same as would apply for a guy.”

In this thread the issue of Right Speech arose and is being probed. One wave, that Hokai and others seem to be resonating with, is that Julian, in his recent post on the Pavlina's (view-in-that-moment) blog entry regarding VATech, was “wield[ing] his sword of wisdom.” C4Chaos, Arthur and I are resonating with the wave that one should be careful to wield such a sword wisely and with skill. I think there is wisdom in the wave Julian and Hokai are expressing, AND I feel that the sword is not being used with obvious skill. That said, I am simply reading exteriors and translating those through my interiors.

I bring this in here because, as Lol pointed out, “it depends on how you let it out.”
This seems to be a call to speech that comes from your highest Self for the purpose of engaging in compassionately-centered dialog that has the power to effect change.

From my read, this seems to be a distinction between, as Pelle brought out, intellectual and visceral agentic masculine.

From Pelle: What do I mean by the visceral masculine? Well, the intellectual masculine is having the agency and guts to flesh out your own ideas as clearly as possible, and also daring to disagree with others if you don't feel that their ideas hold up to scrutiny. It all takes place in the world of concept and ideas …What I call the visceral masculine is more personal. One way of doing this is lovingly challenging someone else to grow, or challenging them to own something they appear to resist.

Julian's post seems to come from an intellectual agentic masculine wave, and I guess what troubles me about that is that he has brought a specific person (Pavlina) into the mix. So, it's not so much “fleshing out ideas” because it was made personal. So much so, that Pavlina is personally ridiculed:

“Now I have three questions for Pavlina:
1) When did you go off your meds?
2) What kind of drugs did you take instead while you were in Sedona?
3) Did a writer from
The Onion hack your site and post this stuff?
It's almost too good of a parody. How do these guys get taken seriously?”

This activates the wave that C4, Arthur, I, and probably others, are resonating with when we suggest that this is not Right Speech. And, as irony or synchronicity or serendipity would have it (pick your poison), I am reading Grace and Grit right now, and I read the following quote last night, written by Treya:
“Learning to focus more on how we say something, not just the content. Often each of us feels totally right about the content, but we both say this “truth” in an unkind or angry or defensive or provocative way. And then we can't understand why the other reacts to the twist in the comment, not the content.”

OK, so does this resonate with You?

Namaste,
Making Gassho,
Deep Love,

Colin

P.S. I am cross-posting this in the Pavlina/VTech thread, the Right Speech thread, and Julian's blog in response to the aforementioned post in an effort to both encourage on-going discussion and directly engaging those involved.

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 28, 2007, 10:03 AM:

 

well said, Colin. and i agree with your observation. excellent choice of quote too from Grace and Grit.

allow me to share another link which is related to this topic.

NLP 101: The meaning of your communication is the response you get


there is a great deal of truth in that NLP wisdom which applies to everyone concerned:)

~C

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 28, 2007, 10:23 AM:

 

Thanks for posting that intro to NLP, C4.

This is great:

Ever have a time when you were sure you were being totally clear, but the other person heard something else?

One way to deal with that is to blame: it's their fault they didn't get it. But then they didn't get it, you didn't get it, nobody got anything.

Another way is to take responsibility: that's interesting, I wonder how else I can say it so they'll get it instead.

By adopting the belief that the meaning of your communication was the response you got instead of the communication you delivered regardless of their response, you become more real-world by being responsive to feedback and flexible by adapting to change.

So, what is the point of Julian's blog post on this subject? (Julian can give his own perspective, if he is so inclined) Whether or not it was Julian's point, what you (C4) and I and others pick up on is this wave: “Ah ha! Told ya so! YOU are SO fucked up!” with arrogant self-reflection while simultaneously declaring to others how gosh-darn ON you are by posting it on a blog. Some might argue (and I have the wave arising in my own head) that my suggestion here is a performative contradiction (well, aren't you doing here exactly what you are suggesting Julian has done?). I counter that voice by feeling into it and knowing that I am coming to this topic from my heart, not my head. And, just to be extra clear, this is a newish development for me. I can recognize the headiness and agentic assault because I am sometimes prone to it myself.

  Hokai : In Absentia

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Hokai said Apr 28, 2007, 10:22 AM:

 

Hi, Colin. The visceral component is almost absent in this medium, and tone is often a matter of trust and implicit understanding we have about the nature of critical speech. We all need to exercise this basic trust when we engage in online conversations, and I assume most of us do.

The “three questions” you quote are an obvious joke, and I'm sorry if there those who don't find it funny. It'd be great to make an altitude analysis of this joke and possible reactions to it. Differences in humor started more then one war, but even so they're not a problem in and of themselves. The problem arises when not laughing to Julian's joke is somehow combined with not feeling the perversity in Pavlina's pseudo-equanimity towards murders at VA Tech. The joke wasn't personal or distasteful, but Pavlina's treatment of a tragedy was.

There are many ways to call a spade a spade, and yes we need to choose them wisely. When I said anyone has the right to weild the sword of wisdom, that's what I meant. It's a sword of wisdom, i.e. it's discrimination exhibited and expressed wisely. One cannot weild a sword of wisdom but wisely. There's no need to call for more wisdom here. Sometimes it's ugly, especially if it's mirrorlike wisdom.:-) And sometimes it's not so funny. And sometimes it feels irritating, but that's what it is - calling a spade a spade, and not beating around the bush, or ignoring the whole mess.

Here in Europe, the styles of writing are so much more down-to-earth and cynical in every good sense, that all this talk about making peace and getting along would be considered sheer exageration in sensitivity, especially when no one complained of insult or prejudice or anything inconsiderate. It's like being unsatisfied when we don't like someone else's ideas being different from our own in a way that makes our ideas seem less stable and unquestionable.

Personally, I certainly enjoy having my views questioned. And I don't believe there are “two waves” at work here.

Thanks for your observations, and for engaging this subject from yet another angle.:-)

Hokai

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 28, 2007, 10:34 AM:

 

Thanks for your insightful comments, Hokai.

Obviously, there is a basic difference in opinion here. To make a point, here's an exaggerated example: The “joke” that Julian made might be seen by some as akin to the “joke” made by Ann Coulter at the Republican National Convention:

“I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards, but it turns out you have to go into rehab if you use the word ‘faggot-so….'”

What's to be offended about; it was just a joke, right?

I will own that I am, in my current version, a sensitive soul. There is value in that, though, and maligning or invalidating that tendency is not integral, from my perspective. Relegating it to “green” in an attempt to cheapen it serves no one (I say this preemptively because I have seen that done to others).

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said Apr 28, 2007, 10:38 AM:

 

Cross-posted from the “Right Speech” thread:


I believe that we do need to have a sharp but compassionate Integral sword ready to make distinctions when needed. If something is clearly green, but trying to pass as Integral then we need to call a spade a spade. At times a clean cut is needed even if it hurts.

What I see in parts of the Integral movement, and this includes the Integral icons Ken and Stuart themselves, is that many manifestations of green is attacked using a tone and language that clearly displays the shadow in the attacker. You don't see Integralites being all upset about manifestations of amber and orange, it is always green that is the target in heated debates.

I do believe that it was quite unnecessary for Stuart to publicly crucify Steve Pavlina. Stuart could have made a compassionate and Integral statement on the VA Tech Tragedy without doing this. Further more I feel it was outright inappropriate by Julian to publicly insult and ridicule Pavlina, this tells us more about Julian than Pavlina.

A skilfully wielded Integral sword will uncover the incompleteness of first-tier ideas, for example Green tendencies to let the UL (in spirituality) or LL (in academia) rule the day.
An unskilfully wielded sword, such as Julian's in his blog, will instead decapitate the person who dared to be unevolved enough to still hold onto first-tier concepts.

my 2 cents


peace
pelle

  Colin : Transfigurine

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Colin said Apr 28, 2007, 10:58 AM:

 

It seems I've made a minor gaffe by cross-posting my comment without a call to continue the dialog on one thread. I'm suggesting that, if others agree, we bring this conversation, if it continues to unfold, to the Right Speech thread.

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said Apr 29, 2007, 12:51 PM:

 

thanks again to everyone who have shared their perspectives on this thread. i've learned a lot of things from this interaction. but there's still one important perspective missing here, and that's Pavlina's.

so allow me to link to his latest blog post so that we can consider this when interpreting Pavlina's point of views moving forward.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/04/making-peace-with-death/

here's a key quote:

“The prevailing social views would encourage you to dismiss my perspective on death as being insensitive, dissociated, or perhaps psychopathic.  Try to see that there’s a deeper level of compassion at work here though.  I’m not trying to belittle the emotional pain people experience when their loved ones die.  Rather I’m suggesting that death itself is not the source of that pain.  The source of that pain is the unhealthy attachment to that which is by definition temporary.  This realization is a way to genuinely transcend that pain by uncovering a greater truth, not a futile attempt to hide behind a shield of denial.

“I know it’s easy for people to jump to the conclusion that I’m adopting a dissociative perspective in order to avoid dealing with my own fear of death… a diagnosis that invariably comes from those who’ve never met me.  In my teen years, I did in fact experience that dissociative state, while deep down I was deathly afraid of death.  That was followed by many years of gradual transformation, much of it through inquiry, introspection, and some fascinating paranormal experiences.  If you allow your compassion to broaden and deepen instead of keeping it fixed on the notion that a tragedy has occurred, it can take you to a new level of awareness.  This isn’t a dissociative place but rather a fully associative one.  At this point you begin to see death for what it really is, a far cry from what our social conditioning teaches us.”

and if you' re interested to see the reactions of his readers, here is the link to the forum thread:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/steve-pavlina/6619-making-peace-death-blog.html

  Lucidity : Designer of Life

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Lucidity said Apr 29, 2007, 2:28 PM:

 

I do think that Steve's POV is important here and I do hope he decides to get involved in these discussions about integral.

But even if he didn't I don't think the integral community will condemn him to hell.
Right?

I don't really know Pavlina so I can't defend his stance, but ultimately what is all this about?
Is it really about WHO is right and WHO is wrong, here?

or are we really all open to exploring truth?

I wouldn't be surprised if Pavlina and Ken agreed on certain points, not that again I know any of Pavlina's work nor making a judgement about him personally.

  MrTeacup : Celestial Accounts Receivable Dept.

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

MrTeacup said Apr 29, 2007, 4:13 PM:

 

But what exactly is Pavlina's perspective on death? Here's what he says:

I suspect this attachment to the temporary stems from doubts over the continuity of life after death.  If you’d had the experiences Erin and I have had, you wouldn’t worry about it so much.

It’s one thing to read third-party accounts and to try to convince yourself that life after death is possible. It’s quite another to channel a dead relative of someone you’ve never met and bring them to tears because you’re able to give them so much verifiable validation.

So for Pavlina, fear of death doesn't come from attachment to a permanent self, but the lack of attachment to a permanent self. Death doesn't really matter, because I (my relative self) just goes somewhere else, crosses over, maybe a spirit realm of some kind. But 32 people died violently. If your philosophy is that it doesn't matter, it's dissociative. Pavlina travels exclusively on the 'form is emptiness' side of the street, and dismisses the 'emptiness is form' part as unspiritual and delusional 'prevailing social views'. This is extremely partial.

A second problem is that he doesn't seem to be aware that the existence of a spirit realm contradicts his belief in subjective reality. If everything including other people are products of intention manifestation, then his experiences of channeling dead people must be also. What makes that real if everything is a product of his own consciousness. If subjective reality is true, then when I die, whatever I believe happens will happen. Heaven, hell, nonexistence, rebirth, whatever.

—-

To me, the appropriate spiritual response would be to accept that this is indeed a tragedy, but also to remember not to lose the Absolute perspective, and I don't get that from Pavlina. He clearly believes the “spiritual” perspective is superior, and when we are talking about integral spiritual teachings, I shouldn't have to mentally fill in the blanks. If his glass is only half full, it doesn't matter much to me how clear and pure the water is, its still only half full. And because there are so many teachers out there claiming to be full when they are only partially full, its important for the integral community to stand up and say it, and not just in a general, kind of conflict-adverse way. We need to be able to take a specific teaching, and point out where it succeeds and where it fails.

I'm also in favor of taking a Right Speech and Shadow lens on how that is done, but there is no getting around the fact that this type of endeavor is going to be hard for nearly everyone. A major integral challenge is to abandon your partial viewpoints, and within an integral community, we have an obligation to help each other do this. That is itself an expression of compassion.

  e : .

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

e said Apr 29, 2007, 4:10 PM:

 

Hey All,

Why is Pavlina the integral whipping boy? He just seems to be speaking from the upper left is all.

There is a long tradition of debate in spiritual circles. The Buddha debated with anyone that came to see him. Krishnamurti even talked with terrorists and softened their hearts. What is the big deal with a dialogue with Pavlina? If Integral is so comprehensive and true, surely Pavlina would be someone to easily bring into the fold. Surely he can easily be shown the light. And if not, why does and who says his views have to fit in with integral?

As far as VA Tech goes, any person in the throes of the loss of a loved one is not going to be on the internet reading peoples blogs. So whatever Pavlina or anyone else writes is not going to harm anyone of those people.

What does integral wish to accomplish? What is this place to be? At best an integral island at worst a clique. It was a mistake to ban Martin. If integral cannot educate people thru dialog and tolerate differences of oppinion and even a bit of antagonism, what real good is it?

peace

e

  MrTeacup : Celestial Accounts Receivable Dept.

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

MrTeacup said Apr 29, 2007, 5:29 PM:

 

Stuart tried to engage him in a dialog, which he declined. But is anyone saying that we shouldn't debate him, or his ideas? No. His misguided views are excellent opportunities for debate. But I don't think its our job to bring anyone into the fold, or show them the light. People are where they are, and change is up to them.

I do think that some of Pavlina's views are harmful and have negative consequences, but that doesn't mean I think he should stop writing. I hope that he becomes less partial, and perhaps pointing out the problems with his thinking can in some small way contribute to that, but its not my goal to change him.

I'd like to find a consensus. Some people think he's fantastic; others think he's deeply offensive. Both viewpoints are seeking validation. Given the level of energy around this issue, I think Pavlina is only the tip of the iceberg. I sense a deep-seated, but fairly hidden division that has arisen lately as pro- and anti-Pavlina camps. Dig a little, and you find that some people believe that opposing new age, magical thinking too strongly turns people off, while others feel that permitting new age thinking to slide undermines the power of integral. These are important issues that I think everyone is eager to discuss.

  Lindsey : momento mori

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Lindsey said May 1, 2007, 2:21 PM:

 

In Steves most recent Blog on Death he says

“The prevailing social views would encourage you to dismiss my perspective on death as being insensitive, dissociated, or perhaps psychopathic.  Try to see that there’s a deeper level of compassion at work here though.  I’m not trying to belittle the emotional pain people experience when their loved ones die.  Rather I’m suggesting that death itself is not the source of that pain.  The source of that pain is the unhealthy attachment to that which is by definition temporary.  This realization is a way to genuinely transcend that pain by uncovering a greater truth, not a futile attempt to hide behind a shield of denial.” I wonder if he is somehow responsding to Stu….

It is amazing how I almost like what he says all the time but there is always something irksome and pathological about it.

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said May 1, 2007, 3:10 PM:

 

The irksome part for me in that latest quote is calling all attachment unhealthy. Unless you are a causal or nondual sage you will have attachment to your loved ones, and that in itself is not unhealthy. Maybe he's trying to say that you shouldn't be attached to your attachment… With that I can agree.

Perhaps it would have been more useful if Steve had posted some pointing-out instructions on how to feel into the pain of the incident, and how it's possible to connect to Spirit when you reach the core of the pain. Something like that would have been more useful to his readers, considering that most of them probably aren't causal sages.

I still like a lot of Steves material, but some of the spiritual/philosophical stuff is confusing at best, and green at its worst.


peace
pelle

  Lindsey : momento mori

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Lindsey said May 1, 2007, 3:20 PM:

 

Exactly what irks me! From a causal perspective attachment is unecessary but not wrong. Why does he vaule no pain more than pain? Why is it unhealthy to feel pain?

~Lindsey

  e : .

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

e said May 2, 2007, 2:31 PM:

 

Hey Pelle & Lindsey,

Attachment leads to suffering and so is unhealthy if suffering is seen as unhealthy. You dont have to be a non-dual sage to see this. You can see this in the dying process. When folks die thru some protracted illness, negative or positive attachments always yield suffering. But when love enters a room, the dying can die in peace and the living can go and live in peace.

peace & love,

e

  Lindsey : momento mori

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Lindsey said May 2, 2007, 4:18 PM:

 

Hmmm… that's true. I think there is a difference between pain and suffering though. There is no need to suffer but there is nothing wrong with pain arising. Complete non-attachment is what I call dissociation. We incarnate for a reason!

  e : .

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

e said May 6, 2007, 3:58 PM:

 

In your original quote SP was equating 'emotional pain' with suffering. Non-attachment is a bit misunderstood. Not to bore you with the details but in Dependent Origination we are to unattach to craving and if possible sensation or feeling (not emotion). To see the impermanence of sensation was a decent into emptiness realization. Complete unattachment actually makes you more present to what is happening with no obscuring veil. You know the old joke about what reincarnates? Our defilements.

p&l

e

  Julian : integral healer

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Julian said May 2, 2007, 5:48 PM:

 

dead on mr T.

you summarize the essence of the debate nicely and point out the underlying tension - this aint about pavlina - it's a much broader issue and one that i think powerfully influences the effectiveness of integral.

  ~C4Chaos : (hyper)linker

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

~C4Chaos said May 1, 2007, 3:16 PM:

 

heads up everyone! B-SCAN with Steve Pavlina is up!

keep your eyes on this tag:

http://coolmel.zaadz.com/blog/tags/b-scan+with+steve+pavlina

for those who are interested to engage Pavlina in an open discussion, you can always sign up on the Steve Pavlina Forum.

i've done my part. now i rest from this discussion.

thanks to everyone!

~C

  maxie : Zaadster

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

maxie said May 1, 2007, 11:46 PM:

 

C4,

I've been lurking away on this thread more or less since it began and want you to know that I really appreciate the way you have “meistered” this discussion.  I chose not to post as I was deep into some other “thinking” and knew that I could not handle the distraction without compromising the time I needed to think and write elsewhere.

Generally, I thought that SP put what he had to say gently on the table - a true offering, not a projection. He announced (unnecessarily I think) that his post on VA/tech would probably be “offensive” to many.  I don't see him being offensive, just true to his sense of what it means to be totally responsible for the whole enchilada.  VA/tech, and our relationship with it is a perfect test of this responsibility pledge. 

People were “offended” because Pavlina's offering was so radical, so immediate, so jarring to our conditioned instincts to look without for blame and solution.  Who to blame?  Where is the solution out there?  Guns?  Forget it.  The gun lobby won.  There will never be substantive change in the gun laws.  Period.  The kid was primed and I helped push him over the edge because I have been dilly-dallying on the trail to examine my own shadowed hatreds which I project out into the world whether I want to or not.  That boy was tuned to the frequency of this shadowed broadcast  of mine.  Today, I am not afraid to admit this.  Yet still, shame arises.  I feel shame.  Feeling it, expressing it, leaves me with less in the tank.  I choose change.  Shame subsides.

Every day, we hear of suicide bombers blowing up 30-50 Iraqis.  Every day, we wince and move on to the sports.  When it happens in our town, we freak and contort in grief and uncertainty as to what the right response might be.  I totally agree with Pavlina that the only correct response is to take it in, find what is left in me that can just cluck at dead Iraqis while twisting when its home boys and girls.

I can't help it if the uber-rationales don't see what I see, what Pavlina sees, what virtually every mystic who ever walked sees, that all of the universe - the whole enchilada is somehow being born in every stuttering moment right out of the center of my heart.  This is not news, and it underlies Pavlina's conviction (and mine) that I alone am responsible as it is I alone (working in concert with the Source) who can change me and thus remove the support of shadowed vision I give the shooter in the nightmare of the dream.

This utter taking of responsibility is not a “we” thing.  It is a “me” thing.

Thanks again for the stable guidance.
Yer pal,
Michael

  Bjorn : One Mind

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Bjorn said May 2, 2007, 7:51 AM:

 

I thought Julians critique is right on. If Steven Pavlina would stay true to his highest integral understanding he would be able to see the absurdity of then resorting to a greener understanding. SP does an injustice to all of us by not holding himself to his highest understanding. But I doubt he actually have a more integrated grasp as he again fall back to his base view. It is escapist. 

Calling a spade a spade means in my book we do not lighten the truth with easy-to-hear generalizations. 

Yes, we are all fully responsible for own lives and the lives we live around. We should be examples of peace and love. But to bring in this Universal truism to this massacre does it no good. Julian truly points out the danger and confusion of such an outlook. 

Pelle, have you challenged or engaged in dialogue with SP? At least Julian is crying out. 
Would SP listen to a more tempered engagement? I wonder as he moves freely between understandings as how and when it suits him. But it seems to come back to that he gravitates back toward a green outlook which means that is where he resides. Why? Well, then he personally is off the hook. “All is is well on the western front…” etc.

Once we take a stand and become fully responsable for the views we hold and advocate we by nessesity must live by them. As long as we play with different views we will not personally need to conform to our highest understanding.

Ego death is the goal for spiritual and may I say Integral students so there needs to be a firm and strong voice for not accepting or compromising our reality we live in. By using spiritual insights to events that are straight forward in society alienates people from true spirituality. It affirms their prejudices against anything spiritual.

True spirituality is never separated from day to day events, from pain and suffering, as well as common happiness. The boy was clearly out of his wits, and yes too bad we could no have helped him before it went too far. And yes, the only way I can make a difference is to be the solution myself. For that I thank Julian because his war cry is loud and strong. And he has the ability to express himself in a clear manner (I wish I could be as clear as that).

SP can't help himself. Fame has him by the neck. Why listen when SO many listens to him?

If he had any guts he would be able to answer Julian and Stuart Davies comments with a single relpy to their open dialogue. But most likely he will not be able to hold on to his views and will resort to backpaddeling once again from his own statements. See, that's what the truth does; It wakes us up.

  Pelle : focusing

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Pelle said May 2, 2007, 9:01 AM:

 

Björn:
Pelle, have you challenged or engaged in dialogue with SP? At least Julian is crying out. 
Would SP listen to a more tempered engagement? I wonder as he moves freely between understandings as how and when it suits him. But it seems to come back to that he gravitates back toward a green outlook which means that is where he resides. Why? Well, then he personally is off the hook. “All is is well on the western front…” etc.


(This is not only directed at you Björn, but I choose to post it as an answer to your post.)

No I haven't dialogued with Steve, nor do I see why I have to.
All I have said is that I believe Steve has an integral cognition, but that he still accesses green or green elements in some of his articles. Other articles display more integral thinking.

People have several lines of development. It is not our task to be “with them or against them”. Then we turn amber ourselves. The same person can be very advanced in some respects and underdeveloped or even pathological in others. That's why I'm against demonizing Steve Pavlina, and I'm against alienating him from the Integral movement.

The next huge wave of Integral people are the ones who right now have teal cognition and green values. Let's not kick downwards, but instead display why Integral is desirable and one step upwards from where they're at. They have the cognition to grok what we're saying…

Yes, we can allow ourselves to be pissed off at the stream of green materials out there. Yes we can vent at times. But projecting everything bad on people outside the integral movement, just to feel good within the group, is also a trap that is best avoided. Regular group psychodynamics are still at work, even at integral levels.


peace
pelle

  Julian : integral healer

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Julian said May 2, 2007, 5:46 PM:

 

pelle forgive me but you keep conflating green with magenta.

magical thinking a la the stuff i have criticized SP about is technically actually not green, it's MGM, new age magical thinking/narcissism.

healthy green is something else altogether - and i agree it should be supported. ya gonna hate this but: it would be great if all those claiming turquoise were actually stabilized at healthy green - differentiated from unhealthy regressive green….

a good first step is learning the difference between the classic PTF mistakes SP makes and healthy green.

all the best
~j

  Frans : Gone to the Dogs

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Frans said May 2, 2007, 11:17 AM:

 

Hi Michael,

I wonder - if Steve Pavlina (and all other self-proclaimed mystics) truly believes his own words, then why not focus on creating that world every moment and take utter responsibility? Postings on blogs and web sites that he knows very well will create conflict will only add to the misery of the world, right?

I’m not saying that you’re wrong in what you say - just that the need to say it shows it for what it is - an ego need to be seen as a mystic. Being the knowing, and in that staying away from adding anything; that would be the mystic’s way…

Frans

  maxie : Zaadster

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

maxie said May 2, 2007, 2:32 PM:

 

Frans,

“I wonder - if Steve Pavlina (and all other self-proclaimed mystics) truly believes his own words, then why not focus on creating that world every moment and take utter responsibility? Postings on blogs and web sites that he knows very well will create conflict will only add to the misery of the world, right?”


Interesting question.  Maybe we're just mystics in training, still caught between the revelations manifesting in our experiences and the still somewhat egoic need to share them.  I see no particular need to wait until someone else declares me to be a full-fledged mystic, to feel or perform (and I mean “performance” in the exalted sense, not pretension) like one on occasion.  Fully embracing the responsibilities of 2nd Tier with a growing Turquoise perspective base requires an unabashed honesty about your capabilities and limitations, wouldn't you say?

As far as “adding to the misery of the world” is concerned, well that is in the eye of the beholder.  I believe (though my own experience of reading SP's post) that, however radical or pushy the post may have appeared, that the “misery” experienced is inside of the individual reader, and not in the “world” as you seem to suggest.  Misery, per se, is a personal experience, a non-definitional cover word for constellated emotion.  Dissecting the emotional components shadowed by the word “misery” is more productive than reaching out to blame someone for “creating”  the experience.  No one can “create” emotion in another.  The emotions are already there full force compacted along our own storylines.  We should thank the provocateur for the opportunity to experience our own emotions whether they are “offerings” like Pavlina, or “projecting” like Stuart Davis and dear sweet Julian.

I'm not saying that you're wrong in what you say - just that the need to say it shows it for what it is - an ego need to be seen as a mystic. Being the knowing, and in that staying away from adding anything; that would be the mystic's way…”

The statement “-an ego need to be seen as a mystic . . ” seems like a judgment to me.  I feel that you are reading my mind and taking inventory of my motivations.  I can take a little of that without “reacting” but, as a standard mode of communication, I am disinclined, over time, to be willing to interact on that level.

There is a hierarchy between being a sleep-walking dumbkoff and sainthood.  We are all along this trail somewhere.  I think that what you are suggesting is the Saint's way.  Mystics are well known for blabbing away to anyone who will listen.  Jesus, for instance, had lots to say.  Even his own apostles could hardly get what he had to say, remember?

yer pal,
Michael

  Frans : Gone to the Dogs

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Frans said May 2, 2007, 4:06 PM:

 

Michael,

What makes a mystic - let’s not go there, it would take too long. I just couldn’t help noticing the contradiction in SP’s self-proclaimed reality and his actions in the world of us mere mortals…

You say:

“Fully embracing the responsibilities of 2nd Tier with a growing Turquoise perspective base requires an unabashed honesty about your capabilities and limitations, wouldn’t you say?”

I couldn’t agree more - which is why it’s a lot easier for me to appreciate Julian and Stuart - they’re the first ones to tell you that the ego is still important to them - unlike SP who tries to come off as being above all that (and having had an E-mail conversation with him re. “The Secret” that is impossible to believe for me)

You say:

“The statement “-an ego need to be seen as a mystic . . ” seems like a judgment to me.”

It isn’t - who am I to judge you? I’m simply making an observation, based on where I am at (defining a mystic as someone who personifies non-resistance, which may well be a different definition than yours).

As for “adding to the misery…”, a better word would have been “suffering”. Experiencing that inside would bring it into the world, according to SP..?

Your friend,
Frans

  Grey : Integral Ideator (I-I)

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Grey said May 2, 2007, 1:35 PM:

 

Nice interview, C. Well done! But…

I found Steve's answers to your more interesting questions to be totally non-interesting.  First, he appears to have only a very superficial understanding of the AQAL model and then, naturally enough, goes on to make either very superficial (and inaccurate) criticisms of the theory or criticisms of the community, which has little or nothing to do with the theories themselves. 

And his comparison with Hawkins' levels of consciousness is just silly. Hawkins' levels have absolutely nothing to do with development in any way that makes scientific sense. They're mostly just a series of emotional/spiritual states that a person can be in at any one time, and equating second tier with the level of reason is nonsensical because Hawkins' level of reason appears to essentially encompass everything above amber. But I do see how this model fits better with Pavlina's obsession with being “effective”, as well as his rejection of linear development (mean-green pluralism anyone?).

I was particularly disappointed that he didn't attempt to respond to any integral criticism of The Secret and just reduced the whole argument to (and I'm only slightly paraphrasing) “the integral community is just jealous of my success and the success of The Secret”.

Anyway, Steve's obviously an intelligent enough guy, so he gets some things right and can make lots of other things sound right, but his hell-bent drive to be effective at all costs (I mean, “help a reader to build a Deathstar”? Just a joke, I suppose, but it implies that he doesn't care much what a person's goal is; the important thing is to be effective in achieving that goal) causes him to make a lot of poor decisions purely for the sake of effectiveness without really contemplating the issue from a more integral point of view. His support of The Secret typifies this problem, but it's far from the only example of how his egocentric focus on personal effectiveness (and helping others to be like him in that regard) leads him astray.

Anyway, thanks again for the interview, C.

Cheers,
Grey

  Julian : integral healer

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Julian said May 2, 2007, 5:39 PM:

 

yes thanks c4.

grey i agreed with your review - and said so (and then some) here….

  Grey : Integral Ideator (I-I)

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Grey said May 2, 2007, 10:09 PM:

 

Thanks for pointing that out! I didn't check the comments for part 2 after I saw that part 1 comments were all just expressing full agreement with Steve….

I'll go give that whole part 2 exchange a read right now.

Later,
Grey

  e : .

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

e said May 2, 2007, 2:40 PM:

 

How should we see first tier…as a prison to escape?
Express love and compassion or outrage and disgust for those “stuck” there, and god forbid, express themselves from there?

Our thoughts express a duality our minds are held sway by…Reality/Illusion

In SD terms.
Reality is expressed in the values of the singular pole.
Illusion is expressed in the values of the plural pole.

Reality getting more complex and Illusion becoming more inclusive going up the Spiral.

Reality prone, Illusion is negated. Magic, mythic and green thinking is ‘out there’, it needs to be reeled back in.
Illusion prone, Reality is negated. Reality is too violent and rationally limited. Utopia is just around the materialistic corner.

You can see this duality splay out in the views expressed about SP. Those that bash him are Reality oriented. Those that embrace him are Illusion oriented. You can see this duality splayed out in the Masculine/Feminine or just about any other thread here. Do we even sense the conditioned nature of all of our views? By definition a perspective is partial.

Can and how does this habit stop in the mind? Does it even need to?

In Zen Buddhism koan practice is for the mind that is Reality prone. Go ahead and try and figure it out i.e. rationalize the koan.
In Tibetan Buddhism deity practice is for the mind that is Illusion prone. Where is the deity (Illusion) when it dissolves into awareness?

How does this duality change going from Body\Mind\Spirit?
What would it be like if the mind saw thru the duality of Reality/Illusion?
Is there anything past this duality?

peace & love,

e

PS
Jane, sweet post sans the theology.
C4, thanks for the Q&A with SP. Nice effort!

  maryw : ponderer

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

maryw said May 2, 2007, 11:07 PM:

 

Peeps,

Check out Balder's great blog post on this subject.

  Frans : Gone to the Dogs

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Frans said May 3, 2007, 7:48 AM:

 

Thanks for that link Mary - it is a very good post indeed.

Balder says:

“the elevation of the subjective pole over the objective one (instead of an embrace which holds both in their co-arising), and the inappropriate attribution of absolute creative power to that complex of thought, feeling, image, and desire we call the self.”

That pretty much sums up what Steve Pavlina does.

I can only imagine Balder must have been cringing inside when he compared Steve to Krishnamurti - that’s like comparing a bowl of dirty dishwater to a deep mountain lake…

  Enkidu : Warrior Priest of Sol

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Enkidu said May 3, 2007, 10:42 AM:

 

Solipsism

  Lindsey : momento mori

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Lindsey said May 3, 2007, 11:54 PM:

 

Word!

  Rannah : Spirit Channel

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Rannah said May 5, 2007, 4:27 PM:

 

“You and you alone are 100% responsible for manifesting this. Not the shooter. Not the victims. Just you. If you observe violence in your reality, it's because you're harboring violent thoughts within you.”

“So I wouldn't say the Virginia Tech shootings were anybody's responsibility but my own.”


Wow, tough to follow all this post.  And again, maybe too simple a response, but how can this be taken seriously?  It reminds me of those who say the Holocaust never took place. 

It does make me wonder tho, are these the views of reality that slow us down in finding the solutions so sorely needed to prevent violence? to find and fund the health care for the mentally ill? And are not the violent the mentally ill? 

  Frans : Gone to the Dogs

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Frans said May 5, 2007, 5:25 PM:

 

Hi Rannah,

I was going to say: define “mentally ill”…but then you kinda said that already - so I’m just repeating it, because i think it’s an important question. More later.

Frans

  Lindsey : momento mori

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Lindsey said May 5, 2007, 6:04 PM:

 

I don't know that it is necessarily that bad for society it is pathological but still from a post conventional worldview. It seems like this could be a personally damaging perspective if taken really seriously, but not quite on the same level as denying the holocaust…

  e : .

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

e said May 6, 2007, 4:00 PM:

 


From Don Beck on April 20.

—-

SDi Constellation:

I've refrained from posting any comment on the tragic happenings at
Virginia Tech because I got so emotional my self in the loss of life
and senseless suffering. Having taught students (kids, actually) like
that for so many years I can just imagine what it must have been like
for the professors when they were helpless to intervene and protect
those who had been, in a sense, put in their hands by their parents,
the University, and the state. I just can't think of anything more
horrible and the grief will last for many months and years to come.
There are two observations I would like to make.

First, we are witnessing how a healthy culture, with a strong DQ
purpose driven system, in this case around the “Hokie Spirit,” rose
to the surface to embrace all in that community with the
determination to move ahead. Interesting how the DQ (Blue) scheme
expressed, its in content (theme) a more of a Green sensitivity,
meshed with powerful Purple “we are all part of the family” nurturing
and emotional support. All the singing, chanting, and mutual display
of personal warmth, was only a natural response to the trauma and
tribulation that spread in ever corner of the campus. We now speak of
this as the amount of resilience that was built into the overarching
cultural displays and responses. While it was most demonstrated in
support for the various athletic teams, especially the
intercollegiate football program – the Hokies – it appeared to have
a much stronger base than simply “in sports.” We have visited with
Dr. Gretchen M Bataille, the new President of the University of North
Texas about how to create such a spirit of resilience on the Denton
campus, in spirt of having only a mediocre sports program and a large
number of commuter students. (Maybe, however, you have heard of the
wonderful jazz band and the College of Music produced Noah Jones.)
She reported that every college and university president is now on a
state of alert since, over the last 2 days, these institutions have
had more than 10 threats causing them to lock down buildings and
cancel classes.)

Since Dr. Phil Mcgraw is a graduate of UNT with a Ph. D. in clinical
psychology – and was on campus over the weekend – we are laying out
plans to suggest to him ways to expanding his own work from more of a
person to person focus to an understanding of large scale systems
design and management. Our initial contacts have been most positive.
“Dr Phil” was on Larry King's CNN two nights in a row with a number
of keen insights into these events.

Second, issues regarding Cho Seung-Hui are another matter. If
Professor Clare W. Graves were here he would most likely speak of a
biological closed system, and his advice would be, and I heard him
say this many times: “just BACK OFF.” Meaning, there is nothing you
can do about this pattern than to encircle it, contain it, restrict
it, isolate it, protect others from it and, most likely
institutionalize it. Graves did a great deal of work in both prison
and mental health environments which, I believe, is where he
developed many of the characteristics of “The Gamma Trap.” But with
this biological “closedness” (his term) rather than situationally
closed and/or arrested, there is nothing for it. Most likely this
condition sealed in at the ages of 8-10 so it is not a function of
mistreatment in high schools. We just don't have current means within
higher education to both detect it early enough and then respond to
it with full court press strategies. Political correctness and naive
notions of diversity have not helped.

Sadly,

Don

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

adastra said May 7, 2007, 10:07 AM:

 

I like this little article on the tragedy, and appropriate responses to it:

Where Was God at Virginia Tech?

by Olga Bonfiglio

As we get over the shock of the tragedy at Virginia Tech, the religious questions will soon begin: How could God let this happen? What kind of God allowed it? How can I believe in God when bad things like this happen?

Jesuit theologian Jon Sobrino can offer us some help. He knows a lot about tragedy. He nearly escaped assassination on March 16, 1989, in El Salvador when members of the military broke into the rectory and killed his brother priests, the housekeeper and her daughter. He was out of town that night.

After the peace finally came to El Salvador after 12 years of civil war (1980-92), an earthquake in 2001 killed over 800 people, injured nearly 5,000 and destroyed more than 108,000 houses and 150,000 buildings. The Salvadoran government didn’t provide the necessary rebuilding support so the people did it themselves, first by digging out victims of the earthquake with their bare hands because they had no equipment. Sobrino concluded that God wasn’t in the tragedy of the earthquake or even in the government’s disregard for the people. God was in the people’s response to the tragedy.

By declaring Cho sick and insane in plain view on America’s TV and Internet screens, we essentially remove ourselves from any response for the killings and salve ourselves instead with anger or fear or denial or avoidance. We did this after Columbine and again, after 9/11. What is missing in our response to all these tragedies, however, is the “we.” How are we part of the madness that drove the perpetrators? How are we preventing further heinous acts of violence? How are we making ourselves feel unsafe?

Many people will react to the VT tragedy by installing more cameras, more guards, more lock-downs, more security keys. Only those in the security business will benefit from this strategy as they willing sell institutions their goods. Administrators tend to adopt such measures because they look as though they’re doing something. However, fear prevails because these security devices are constant reminders that campus is unsafe and everyone is at risk.

Many people will choose an avoidance strategy where they break some pattern they think relates to the tragedy. For example, the mother of one of my students advised him to forego applying for a residence hall assistant position because resident assistants at VT were among those killed.

When tragedy strikes, and it always does, some people go on with their lives without thought or reflection on it. This denial strategy essentially leads one to believe that nothing happened and all is normal. We try to get on with life without dealing with life’s reality. We then prevent ourselves from acting against such tragedies because we refuse to relate to them or find meaning in them-or to find God in them.

I’m not suggesting a Pollyanna approach saying that all is well and God will provide. Actually, I’m suggesting a more confrontational approach against these evil acts of violence and terrorism.

· Join with others to form or strengthen your community, neighborhood or campus. Talk about these issues and figure out what YOU can do about them to respond without fear, hatred or denial but rather with love, compassion or reconciliation. After the Jesuits were executed in El Salvador, the gardener, who lost his wife and daughter in the killings, planted rose bushes in the same place where they were killed.

· Defy the inclination to give in to fear by objecting to stepped up security measures and instead organize people to look out for each other. Refuse to watch the repetitive news reports or analysis of the tragedy by turning off the TV and the Internet. Challenge people who say mean and nasty things about others to stop such vitriol.

· Sublimate your anger, sadness and fear by being silent within. Meditate. Take a walk in the woods. Breathe deeply. These strategies cleanse the body and help you face the tragedy.

For the present, it’s clear that we are going to have to deal with terrorists in our world. Let us confront them by pulling together and allowing our communities to be transformed. So far, we’re getting nowhere through our anger, fear or denial.

Olga Bonfiglio is a professor at Kalamazoo College in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and the author of Heroes of a Different Stripe: How One Town Responded to the War in Iraq. Her website is www.OlgaBonfiglio.com. She has also written for several national magazines on the subjects of social justice and religion.


  Frans : Gone to the Dogs

Re: Tragedy, Terrorism, VA Tech Massacre, and Pavlina

Frans said May 7, 2007, 1:32 PM:

 

Thanks Arthur - that is a great little article!

Reminds me somehow of the movie “Catch a Fire’, where the main character (I’m really bad with names) refrains from killing the now old and decrepid torturer, played by Tim Robbins. He rmembers a conversation with Nelson Mandela, who told him that he would never be free until he could forgive…

Frans