Integral Feminine

Hi Gina (and everyone else),

I wil of course respect you opening up a thread for women only Gina, but my question is this: what about a thread where everyone writes posts from their feminine side/aspect - there are men that have access to that and showing that may help those who don’t. Or rather: those who have convinced themselves they don’t…

Just a thought - love to hear what you think…

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Frans,

I thought about that too…. there was the green pluralistic self that thought about wanting to include all. 

But

What I am trying to create is a way for integral women to find their voice without having a male influence (other than their own inner influence).

I don't know if you were around for this, but you might spend some time reading…

Re: Integral Feminine

Gina,

That works for me. I’d like to keep this thread open to both genders but want to emphasize that we are looking for the feminine aspect here.

As to the green need to include everyone - in me there’s a opening to include and transcend differences within ourselves, while honouring those differences, in fact nurturing those differences as necessary parts of what brought us here. It’s my believe that we’ll never get ahead as long as we struggle internally, while externally setting ourselves up as one group as opposed to another. We all have all 9 types of the enneagram and both genders as part of our psyche - we need to learn to move fluently between all of these. That’s when balance starts to mean something more than just a nice concept.

Has the feminine been ignored/hurt/abused here? - no doubt it has; I just don’t believe women can make this better - we either make it better with everyone included or we become part of the problem, as one group in conflict with another group.

Anyone - let’s hear from your feminine side please!

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Gina…. Hi Frans….

Hmmm, I'll be honest, my draw to this thread is somewhat diminshed…. even with the guidelines that men will be participating with their feminine side.  (my) Bottomline, there are simply differences.  I was glowing at the thought of feminine essence having full rein…. maybe even stretching and encouraging ourselves to really go with it, and see where integral holds, falters, hides, etc….

I think I'd like to request that this is a play space for female embodied first….  lets see where it takes us, what unfolds.  Then we can create a sister thread including all feminine aspects or invite all to the mix after it unfolds  (lets us get the space ready for ya! ;-)

Lastly, with love for you Frans… it did seem to me that you stepped in and “led” this thread in a different direction than Gina intially intended.  I don't have any disagreement with your points, and its certainly viable and interesting, but I guarantee, there will be a different outcome and play. 

So I wonder: do we want to work with the feminine in different forms (primary essenced and otherwise) or do we want to simply allow one embodiment full access to FLOW….

My enthusiasm last night, when I learned of the thread, was to have a space dedicated for women… a sacred space to see, be, …… Yum!

Thoughts? Sense?  Other voices?

Full embrace,
~ Stacy

Re: Integral Feminine

Stacy,

I agree - that’s why I started a seperate thread. “Integral Women” is the thread that Gina started - I didn’t reply on that thread because i wanted to honour it’s commitment, which is why I started “Integral Feminine”.

Hope that clarifies - and I hope to see your posts on both!

Love, Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

nooooo waaaaay!!

busted :-)…. how did i miss this, morning coffee and all?  can i blame being up to nearly 3am studying?

thanks for the clarification Frans!!! my bad,
~ Stacy

See ya on both threads

Re: Integral Feminine

Wonderful Frans

I want to play in both. I learn as much about my feminine self through interaction with male as I do from female. This is all new to me.

So which game are we going to start with?

Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

Hey gang

I had a very interesting discussion with a friend of mine yesterday about Integral community, one of the aspects was about masculine/feminie, men/women.  Theres an integral group that hes involved in that has a woman's sub-group.  He didn't feel it was healthy though, as it had arisen because there was a lack of genuine feminine in the group, and a lack of space for it to emerge - thus the women had moved thir feminie somewhere else…disaster.  The whole point of an Integral community is that there is space for both masculine and feminine, and that people are able to connect with both in themselves and others.  But as the Integral women thread has I think proven: integral women's feminine energy and feminine needs are vitally important - having been part of a mens group for years, I know how important and nourishing it can be to be able to function without women around.  And vice versa.

I think a women only space is a really healthy aspect *if* its not to compensate for a lack of feminine in the group as a whole - that just creates division.  I feel like this pod has the best balance of masculine/feminine of any online integral community I've come accross, but we undoubtably have potential for even greater balance. 

The Integral movement has more emphasis on the masculine side, its unavoidable for now I think.  Ken's work is leading the way still, and I think it has to.  Great thinkers are nearly always men - its a masculine approach, great movements are usually led by great thinkers.  We don't have a lot of choice in that.

What I want to ask the women is how I as a masculine man can help open the space for more of your femininity, and womaness.


EWan

Re: Integral Feminine

Ewan:
What I want to ask the women is how I as a masculine man can help open the space for more of your femininity, and womaness.

I have the same question. While the answer for women might seem totally obvious, it isn't obvious for men at all. I myself am very much in touch with my feminine side in several areas, but that doesn't mean I always can guess what a woman wants me to do (or not do). Like Ewan, I truely want to learn more about it. In real life, I can often pick up subtle non-verbal cues, but they're not available here. So part of the process of making this a better place for women to hang out, is for women to be as specific about their wishes as possible. I know that it's nicer for a woman to be seen and understood without having to explain everything, but sometimes men have to hear it straight and clear. I think there is a lot of willingness in this pod to accomodate women more.

Also, as a general tip for women: if you ever want a man (or men) to change behavior, say what you like men to do, explain what makes you happy, not what you don't like. Just tell him/them what you find attractive in men (or better yet: use the word sexy, if approriate). Any good man will take notice immediately. Make it a challenge for him, and watch miracles unfold.  Men love challenges, works way better than compliments. You'll get through that way, while complaining to a man is one of the best ways to make him close up (unless you have a really good man who knows how to deal with that, but they are rare).  I hope there are other men here who can confirm this?

I'm following the Integral Women thread with great interest, by the way, spelling each and every post.

Peter

Re: Integral Feminine

Ewan, Peter

Thank you for the question.

For myself, I'm not entirely sure what I do need, as that part of me has been so submerged (by myself as well as others, I hasten to add) but I'll try, please be aware I'm thinking out loud here.

I need to be heard, listened to and that listening to be demonstrated by a real interest in deepening the ideas, exploring them further (trying hard not to say what I don't want here guys  : -D ). The conversation might go something like this;

“So am I right in understanding you feel/think/see/hear  x …?”
“What specifically about x makes you feel/think/see/hear…?”
“How do you think this     y     idea impacts on  x…?”

I want the space to come to my own answers using a range of information from others, presented as possibilities, viewpoints, options. I'm happy and eager (most of the time, so long as shadow hasn't been triggered - and who knows when that's going to be) to learn something I don't know or see something from a different angle if its presented as a possibility not a 'fait accompli' (sorry, a negative slipped in there).

There are a lot of approaches in NLP which are very useful for this type of discussion especially the meta model.

There are other things which come into play called meta programs in NLP which I think also have a huge impact on misunderstandings in communication, which IMO can be misread as masc/fem in nature (Pelle might have more to say on this - perhaps its a thread in its own right?).

And as I've mentioned before I personally find it useful to have a real-life example to illustrate a theoretical point. I love theory and models and I want to see how I can use them day to day, how others are using them.

I'm often scared to admit I don't know something (to be seen as a silly little girly who shouldn't really be here with the big boys - I know, my issues not anyone elses), so when I pluck up the courage to ask the question or make an observation I'd like to be answered with acceptance, as an equal, even if my knowledge or experience on this particular point isn't equal. At this point I'm wondering isn't this what everyone wants, not just the feminine?

How much of the above is my feminine aspect or just my own foibles, who knows. The song will grow as other women add to the music and the lyrics. Thanks for supplying the manuscript paper!
Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

Ewan, Peter, Julie,

Ewan, I agree with you that a woman-only thread is a symptom of some disfunction on the pod as a whole - ever since I joined (in April) I’ve been struck by a lack of the feminine aspect. Too many theoretical discourses, dialogues and monologues, way too little feeling and heart. I’ve been trying to add those and even to start a thread based on experiencing only, but it didn’t take off, and most of my posts were replied to by women (go figure) and a few guys like yourself and Peter.

So, maybe the women-only thread is the healthiest thing that can happen right now as it will no doubt have an impact on the men and maybe make them more aware of a lack of balance in themselves. I specifically call upon men like Rick, TC, Bjorn and David to participate here too.

Peter, as for how to react to women - my advice is to not think, but feel; act from heart, emotion and insight, instead of acting from head, logic and insight. The end result - insight - is the same, but the approach is from the body instead of from the mind.

Mind you - this will work best with womens who are truly in touch with their feminine side, which comprises the women on the woman-only thread for sure, but in my experience few women “out there” are really in touch with their feminine side…

Julie, thanks for being a bridge!

Love, Frans (yes, I love you all - and I can say that and not feel any less of a man!!!!)

Re: Integral Feminine

I've been thinking about workshops on gender relationships that I'm familiar with.  It seems, with the great thread that Gina started and then this follow-up one, that there is a lot of energy in this pod around these issues.  In one of the workshops I'm familiar with, people work with three questions:

~ What positive qualities or characteristics does the other gender bring to relationships?

~ What would you most like to know about the other gender?

~ What do you want the other gender to know about you?

The way this is done is the men and women split into different groups and answer these questions separately in these groups.  This may take some time.  Then they get back together again and discuss their answers.  Often the answers generate a lot of heat, but if groups persevere, a lot of light too.

Do you think it would work to try something like this here?  We could use the same questions, or we could modify them.  Would it be worth trying?

Best wishes,

B.

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Bruce,

How about we change the questions to:

~ What positive qualities or characteristics do both the masculine and the feminine bring to you as whole being?

~ How can the other gender help you in integrating those qualities that are most subdued in you?

~ How can you help the other gender integrate those qualities that oare most subdued in them?

I am quite commited to the idea that we need the balance in everyone individually- not two genders that balance each other.

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi, Frans, I think those are good questions as well.  I would prefer them in addition to the ones I listed rather than instead of them.  I agree with you that it is important to develop and balance masculine and feminine qualities within ourselves, but I think concentrating primarily on that interior work may downplay the LL and LR gender issues that also need attention (and which may be highlighted by speaking in terms of Women and Men, rather than just feminine and masculine).

Best wishes,

Bruce

Re: Integral Feminine

Great point Bruce.

When I was in the Navy and underway (on the high seas) people have no privacy and they tend to loose all pretense. They start to behave the way to do when they are alone even when surrounded by others. It really is something that is hard to describe.
The mess deck (cafeteria) after working hours would fill up with people that weren't on a watch.
In it you could see the various world communities develop that represented where people came from.
The Black guys would sit at one table and play hearts of dominoes, the Filipinos would all sit at another table, New Yorkers at another, West Coast another, etc…
These weren't stable boundaries, as I being a good domino player and shit talker often found myself at the black table, and it moved around, but people from similar cultural backgrounds tended to congregate.
After a month underway though, these boundries began to fall apart and everyone just became other people that were always around, like family.
I also saw women in all of their true colors, and found most of them to be no different from us. They even took on the ritual of having a porn night in women's berthing before pulling into a port, and they had the really good porn too.
The fact is that boys and girls are treated and acculturated differently from day one. The biological and hormonal differences in behavior are often indistinguishable from the physical effects that being treated differently cause.  I wouldn't be suprised that after a month or two underway if blood test showed hormonal balances that were more like ours than like the typical women in the civilan U.S. world, and ours more balanced as well.
So I understand that people feel the need to communicate with people from their particular background. When I'm overseas and I meet another American it can feel like a communications oasis, it is so much easier and freer.
At the same time we shouldn't isolate ourselves out of fear or feel sorry for ourselves because of that fear. I still need to learn the language of the place that I'm at and put myself out there.
If you think its easy for men to navigate a man's world, then you don't really understand what it is to be a man. Often it is just as hard, but we can't complain or share. We are on our own in a large degree.
To systematically isolate ourselves and reproduce the same social boundaries in here that we do in real life, is to ignore the issues that those real life boundaries create.
So while I think it is a good idea to have a thread for women only, it isn't a good idea for women to isolate themselves from the rest of the forum.

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Rick

If you think its easy for men to navigate a man's world, then you don't really understand what it is to be a man. Often it is just as hard, but we can't complain or share. We are on our own in a large degree.

No-one said this. In fact if you read the integral women's thread, specifically Lauren's post, you'll hear something very different.

So while I think it is a good idea to have a thread for women only, it isn't a good idea for women to isolate themselves from the rest of the forum.

As far as I'm aware this isn't the intention of this thread as noted in my reply to BeLynn.

with Love
Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

Bruce - I agree,

So what we will need is participants to form the groups. For the first set of questions:

~ What positive qualities or characteristics does the other gender bring to relationships?

~ What would you most like to know about the other gender?

~ What do you want the other gender to know about you?

we would divide between women and men.

For the second set of questions:

~ What positive qualities or characteristics do both the masculine and the feminine bring to you as whole being?

~ How can the other gender help you in integrating those qualities that are most subdued in you?

~ How can you help the other gender integrate those qualities that oare most subdued in them?

I woul see us use the same participants as for the first set of questions, but without any division being necessary.

Who wants to participate? Please reply to this thread and spread the word - ideally we’d get a 50/50-ish split between women and men.

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

Oops zaadz just had a blip, I'll try again.

Thanks for the questions Bruce and Frans.
I would like to participate

Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

Good, Juliee.  I'm willing to do it too.  But reading through the Integral Women thread, I had a concern come up:  Jane and others have expressed how men will move into a conversation and soon, the issue is about men.  They're taking over the conversation and dominating the dynamics.  I can see how my coming forward with this idea could therefore be interpreted as a male, again, trying to “take control” of the direction of a particular conversation, and I honestly don't want that.  I believe what's taking place on the Integral Women thread is important.  It is moving, powerful, touching, sometimes triggering for me to read.  And based on past conversations here (the Nile debriefing thread, the Integral Masculine/Feminine thread, and now these new ones), it's clear that Female-Male/Feminine-Masculine dynamics are very important for our group (and of course outside this group as well).  So, I would like to participate in what is unfolding, and this was one way I thought we could facilitate the males and females engaging in this together. 

But not at the expense of what is unfolding now for the women here.

Best wishes,

B.

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Bruce

So, I would like to participate in what is unfolding, and this was one way I thought we could facilitate the males and females engaging in this together. 

But not at the expense of what is unfolding now for the women here.



I personally don't see that as usurping, after all the Integral Women thread remains as a forum to allow the flow to happen. As has been noted in several places the two (masculine and feminine) still need to come together as one somewhere sometime to be integral. We all have choice as to whether or not to participate, now and ongoing.

I think if we all honour the sacred feminine and the sacred masculine (paraphrasing Chris off the Integral Women thread) in the process and face our fear and anger (Jane's knot) then great learning can happen.

Others may have a different view of course.

Love

Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

Rick,

you’re making some good points - too bad you had to put the porn lable on there, though. The addiction to porn is a clear sign of the extremely unhealthy relationship we have with sexuality, especially here in in North America. Sexuality should be ( and always has been, except in our culture) a normal expression of the attraction between the feminine and masculine aspect in all the forms this can take - but we’re a long long long way away from there…

I would like to ask everyone to have a peak at the Integral Women thread - specifically the post that Jane put up. It very clearly emphasizes what’s at stake, and she does so in a not-to-be-misunderstood fashion…I will ask her to cross-post here too.

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

It was a forward deployed navy combat ship Frans. Think extreme sexual disfunction steaming around the world and blowing shit up. Think 13 men to every 1 woman, tight quarters, no privacy and a month and a half at sea.

I checked out the woman thread today and I have to say that it follows, almost verbatim, the linguistic patterning that linguists have uncovered doing research into group female communicative styles.
That is someone says something, everyone supports what was said, a round of how each person feels about it and tells a story, often repeating what was said before, then a pause and a new point, followed by the same pattern. At the end, not much actually gets said of any depth, but that's not the point, the point is to create connections and group support. Social norms and rules are also enforced via gossip and shaming.
That's why it is good for there to be at least one thread for this, but that can be done in any chat room really.
This is a topic and theory driven forum.

Re: Integral Feminine

Rick, you wrote:

At the end, not much actually gets said of any depth

Wow. Makes me wonder how deeply you read that thread …

Mary

Re: Integral Feminine

I didn't, just skimmed the first 6 or 7 posts or so. The basic jist seemed that someone stated that they felt the need to be heard, and a bunch of posts following that agreeing, supporting and then repeating what was said by the first. Then a topic change…..
Depth really is a relative and non-quantifiable thing, so it was unfair or me to equate that with either the thread or femal communicative styles. That's what comes through in the literature, and that's what I meant.
Many of the linguists that have published papers on this were women and did so recording their interactions with groups of female friends. What I noticed in the research and the transcripts was that what was actually said remained secondary to the support of this linguistic pattern and the feelings of the group. So it was immediately noticed and stigmatized when a woman in a chat group didn't conform to group communicative norms, and I would say that it is the same for men, and the same for cultures in general.
Some sociologists studying highschool male communication in California highschools noted that any expression of deep feelings or self placement in the “one down” position of dialouge was immediately stigmatized, every time. They wrote a book titled, “Dude! Your a Fag!”
So the point is that these lines of masculine and feminine are as culturally defined as eating steak or fish is.
I would suggest it for anyone interesting in this line of scholarship. I'll look to see if I can find an online journal paper about this and post it.

Re: Integral Feminine

Not everybody can appreciate the feminine gift, as we all know. This is real sad, I can see how much it damages my real-life female friends. I don't like to see that kind of shit here, to be honest.

Peter

Re: Integral Feminine

Rick,

Dude, thanks for giving such a wonderful and illistrative example of the Intellectual Masculine as Pelle would call it, in its purest and most untainted form.  Unfortunately for you, you seem to have totally missed the whole direction that this pod is trying to move in - that is - toward community integration.  That means boys and girls both get to play!

Thats why it is good for there to be at least one thread for this, but that can be done in any chatroom really.  This is a topic and theory driven forum.

Well it may be like that from your perspective, unfortunately your uber masculine jump just missed the Integral benchmark.  I'd suggest you practise some empathetic perspectice taking along with all that meditation you do.


Ewan

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Rick

This is a topic and theory driven forum.

Where specifically does it say this?

Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Rick,

I can only imagine the dynamics…

Have you always had a real passion for putting your foot in your mouth? I know you’re a very intelligent man, so I can only assume there’s a motive here…

I’m sure the linguistic structure is typical of a female (feminine?) forum, but I can’t agree with your statement that:

“At the end, not much actually gets said of any depth,”

If you read carefully - no, let me re-phrase that - if you read with any feeling at all, you’ll see the depth of what is being said by these women. Sure, it’s not based on theory, logic and topic-driven but if you really think that’s what this forum is about you may want to reconsider. That’s the sort of stuff that needs naval ships to go out and blow the shit out of everything, Rick.

Having said all that - I don’t believe for one second that you are that one-sided. So, what is behind it all?

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

Mandalas, labyrinths, painting, koens, lyrics, tantric sex…..

round n round, feeling, repeating, pausing, new sensations, same, patterns, connection….   it is exactly deep, for the giver and receiver…. if one is truly PRESENT, OPEN, AVAILABLE TO THE SUBTLE.

pretty revved up over Holden's comments, obviously ;-)
Heartfully,
~Stacy

Re: Integral Feminine

Bruce,

I for one second Juliee’s thoughts - you’re more than welcome to introduce and guide at least the initial part of the “virtual workshop” - I have a feeling that once it gets going there will be a natural flow to the unfolding. Bear in mind we’re aiming for the feminine aspect to come out, in both genders.

So far it seems we have Bruce, Juliee and Frans (me). how about you Stacy, Ewan, Mary, Rick and all others?

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

Bruce, Frans, Juliee, and all –

I really love the questions suggested for this “virtual workshop” – but I'm thinking that if I were to participate, it would have to be at a later time … I'm finding lately that (much as I love this place) it's better for me to limit the number of hours I spend here reading and posting and pondering what I've read here, better for me to focus on just a few things at a time. In the past I've spent a good deal of my energy and time engaging here, sometimes to the detriment of other things, and I wish to correct that imbalance. 

Also, I'm in more of a “listening” mode right now, listening especially to what I'm hearing in both the Integral Women and Integral Feminine threads.

And, lol, I'm behind in the Gilead book club threads!

Carry on,
Mary

Re: Integral Feminine

Frans, you can count me in. I might offer a different perspective than most others. Spending 33 years living in the world as female (though quite awkwardly) and now 4 years as male offers interesting (though still partial) insights.

Re: Integral Feminine

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a second. I liked what Rick said about gender differences being cultural. I don't think it can be teased out as far as percentages, scientifically, but it's wise not to get too caught up in the differences. I firmly believe they exist, but it's easy to get lazy and just assume that female=feminine, etc.

I'm also not opposed to porn, per se. I think it serves a function, and it's a bit silly to rail against something that is so prevalent. What is needed is more women in the porn industry who are empowered to express female sexuality, and more space to have a broader range of sexuality expressed, in general. It needs to evolve, and denigrating it is not truly integral, nor is it accepting people where they are. But we sure as hell need to progress past money shots, no?

Rick was saying some pretty unpopular stuff, but it's good that he said it. I also feel like sometimes nothing gets done with women talking. But there's something about female agency that needs a lot of space. And if that space is not there, it tends to swirl around in circles. Women aren't used to having space. Perhaps once we are really able to trust it, and by extension the men in this forum and integral men in general, then we can let our agency move things forward.

A beginner's mind is essential. It may be that we need to process a lot of old baggage first, and we need to be patient with that process.

I do have a soft spot for Rick. I don't know why. But let's all treat each other as if we're doing our best, as of course, we are.

Liz

Re: Integral Feminine

Hiya, Liz,

I think keeping in mind that many gender differences, though not all, are culturally installed and reenacted, will help us as we redefine what it means to be a man or a woman (or somewhere in between). I think the greatest freedom is quite a ways off: when people feel free to express masculine or feminine energies in any moment, regardless of their sex. Some will express mostly masculine or feminine; others will manifest either depending on the energy they are encountering in the moment.

On porn: I used to be pluralistic with a feminist slant. Freedom of speech! No censorship!  More porn made by women for women! While I still hold those voices at times, I have recently learned from men in my world that the ready access of porn can be very destructive. Some men (and women, no doubt) are locked into cycles of compulsion and shame that I don't think would be quite as easy to manifest if it weren't for the wide availability (and misogyny) of porn. Ooh, this is a hot topic. I can just hear the variety of voices that may arise in response to what I or you have written.

Liz wrote: I also feel like sometimes nothing gets done with women talking.
Criminy, that's also walking right into a potential line of fire. LOL. My read on this is that, in situations in which that is the case, women have repressed their agency because it doesn't operate on the same timeline as masculine agency. So, I agree with you, I think. That said, I do wonder if overly agentic men often rush to decisions too quickly without considering all of the potential ramifications. Again: we need balance.

How wonderful that you share your soft spot for Rick! He takes a lot of beating (and deals a lot out) in this forum, from what I've seen; yet, he keeps showing up with a remarkable amount of authenticity and some fluidity thrown in to keep things moving. Hi, Rick!

Re: Integral Feminine

i watered my garden today. 

then i measured and cut some lumber, nailed it together, and built a fence around my garden.  now my chickens will stay away from my seeds and plants.

so what was done?  to be certain, my garden is safe, space is preserved… mission accomplished.  and wait…. in a few days, with the water they drank today, my plants will grow, stronger, healthier, abundant, an offering.

Liz…. I'm grateful for the space we have in INtegral Women, and I agree with you.  And I find that it is generally more the “content” than the feminine mode of discourse that becomes the culprit, for me.  Yet to be totally honest, I am also known to step in and lead if in fact there also happens to be a task at hand, other than socializing ;-)

Rick…  I too welcomed your comments, wherever it takes us.

cheers, Stacy

Re: Integral Feminine

Context: this emerged right after reading both the Integral Feminine and Integral Women threads. It is partial, in some senses. AND it represents a deep awareness that has been unfolding within me since the beginning of 2006; today, a new layer. I did not edit this.

Ooh, the integral women thread is burning with the fire of purification. So much of value has been shared. As before, Jane and Mascha and other beautifully honest women ripped culturally-installed blinders off my contorted face. I am learning so much over the last week since the whole multiplex stage started to rage. Watching it reflected here, mulled over, discussed…it's been a wonderful experience.

I am stumbling around like my head and heart will explode, though. Some of what has been said tapped into the deep unconscious in a collective sense. Men fearing heart anger. Oh, that's a big one. Women (and children) choosing silence to keep the peace so men don't dissociate (more) from their hearts and hurt people, emotionally or physically. (There's so many more layers to this, bolstered by an often unconscious xenophobia in us all, layers of which I am still unconscious.)

Every one of us, deep down, is vitally wounded. I have had this feeling strike me where it counts, bleeding out the pain of years (no, centuries and millenia), numerous times over the last year and a half, and now it reemerges with a palpable sense of urgency.

These are the feelings that tap into images of muddy, naked, bloody beings screaming out in pain in the darkness. We live in darkness all the while whistling songs of comfort, dissociating from the pain of being here. We do our best to communicate all the while feeling deeply alone, stranded in this God-forsaken land of brutality. (Stick with me: this is darkness; light is here, too.)

Oh, light seekers, come down into the darkness, the mud and the earth, and the death. Hot flickering flames burn my behind, transforming me. I have seen this. I have felt this.

Yet, I am still, simultaneously, a light seeker. I still whistle songs in the dark. I can only dive deep so often. And I still contribute to the hurt in the world by whistling this song of dissociation. Sometimes we are truly in the light; more often, though, it seems that we are merely dissociated from the dark. And when darkness surfaces, habit energy arises in waves of trying to restore balance by pointing to the light. What I have learned, but still struggle to remember in-the-moment, is that the light gets clearer when we recognize the dark.

To all of you, women: I hear your pain. The pain of being silenced, over and over again. The pain of being waved off like some child in a room full of men. The pain of having your emotions shut down to protect house and home.

To all of you, men: Fuck. What the hell to do with all of this pain? How to embrace the dark, the bloody, the heart-anger? I submit: Look at Her. Listen to Her. Let Her rage and cry and look you in the eyes with her eyes that seem to boil. And then join Her in the dance of pain. The dance of recognition. The dance that says emphatically, YES! Here we are, together.

When I've been able to do that myself, between my own masculine and feminine, I witnessed energy that I had never felt the magnitude of before. When I let myself sink into the anger AND the fear, it ripped my soul wide open.

And I laughed. It was the full-bellied laugh of seeing the light IN the darkness. Of witnessing the dance of Shiva and Shakti, embracing in the cycle of life and death. Yes.

Re: Integral Feminine

And this is why Colin is my long lost twin. Listen to my twin brother, I beg you, if you can't listen to a voice like mine because it is too demanding and strident, manipulative, shaming, incendiary, strange, polarizing - whatever – it doesn't matter. JUST FEEL THE PAIN, that's all.

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Colin

That's awesome, putting into words what I only recognised as you 'spoke' them, although its all been there all along.

Juliee

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Liz,

“I’m also not opposed to porn, per se. I think it serves a function, and it’s a bit silly to rail against something that is so prevalent. ”

I’m sure you misunderstood me (God, I hope you did…) - porn only became porn after society pushed healthy sexuality to the back corners of awareness. What I refer to as porn are the excesses we now see all over the internet and in “adult” stores; most of that has nothing to do with healthy sexuality, but it exploits women and men alike. Ask Rick if he thinks the sailors were better off on their leave after watching porn.
To say it’s silly to rally against something that’s prevelant - what about political lying and deceiving, all the murder and rape on the streets- that’s prevalent too…makes no sense to me, honestly.

I am with you in feeling affection for Rick - as I said I don’t believe for one second he is as one-sided as he likes to portay himself.

Space - let there be space!

Frans

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Colin,

Good to hear your voice here too! I’d say few others will be more qualified than you, knowing both aspects from a gender-specific perspective.

So, please add your insights - great to have you here!

Frans

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Mascha,

Your voice too is needed here - please say you’ll participate!

Frans

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Thank you, Frans. That took me by surprise. Wow… I'm moved, actually.

I'll repeat something from the “Integral Women” thread. It explains why I hesitate to get involved in the discussion here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lauren said: “I have intuited the depth and horror of the grievous wounding boys inevitably endure in patriarchal cultures, and I have experienced how that wound essentially abandons them to a nearly impossible situation, forcing them to self-fragment so violently, that true relational and psychological health (or the ability to thrive in any case) is a great rarity. I trust that the act of assuming true responsibility requires a foundation of self-awareness, emotional literacy, and healed shame that is damn hard for a man to come by in this (and most) cultures. But, can we at least acknowledge this then? That this is the miserable situation we find ourselves in now?”

I said:  Yes. YES.

As always, you nailed it, Lauren. Here it is. Let's  look at  every last bit of it together and say what we mean out loud. For once. Without fear of reprisals for not delivering the news in the exactly right wrappings. By now we know, the package is never correct and will be criticized by many if it contains this gift. Because it contains this gift.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We keep coming back to the same spots in these repetitive cycles – except that it doesn't have to be running around in circles. We're not doomed to repeat.  If we've learnt anything from the previous rounds, we could be part of a spiraling upward movement, higher and wider, always a little more encompassing than the rounds before.

Wishing for the best,

M

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Mascha, all,

“we could be part of a spiraling upward movement, higher and wider, always a little more encompassing than the rounds before.”

That’s what it’s all about, isn’t it.

Mascha - you have been an inspiration to me from when I joined Zaadz, so of course I value your voice.

Love, Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

The things that jumped out for me today on this thread were:  (all different posters)

Great thinkers are nearly always men - its a masculine approach, great movements are usually led by great thinkers. 

I also saw women in all of their true colors, and found most of them to be no different from us. They even took on the ritual of having a porn night in women's berthing before pulling into a port, and they had the really good porn too

it's clear that Female-Male/Feminine-Masculine dynamics are very important for our group (and of course outside this group as well)

So the point is that these lines of masculine and feminine are as culturally defined as eating steak or fish is.

I also feel like sometimes nothing gets done with women talking.

When I've been able to do that myself, between my own masculine and feminine, I witnessed energy that I had never felt the magnitude of before. When I let myself sink into the anger AND the fear, it ripped my soul wide open.

Thank you all.  There is so much juice here I do feel like my soul is being ripped wide open

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Hey, Frans- I didn't word that very well, did I? I agree that the stuff out there is crap, and also (Colin) that many men are in a painful and ugly cycle of dependence/addiction to porn. Did either of you get the rest of what I said, though? I kind of feel like you seized on a flaw and didn't get the gist of it.

I'm loving what everyone has written. Really powerful stuff. More later. I have to babysit.

Liz

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Liz, is the gist of it that we shouldn't rail against a phenemon (porn) that is so deeply embedded in our culture? That we should take the attraction to porn as an opportunity to make the genre more reflective of healthy sexuality? If so, I agree totally.

You could probably pretty reliably assume that I agree with much of what you say. It's when I don't that you'll hear it. The nature of forums (and communication in general): people will take the time to say what they disagree with, not what they agree with. We should practice agreeing more, too. 8)

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I agree :)

Peter

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Frans: “Have you always had a real passion for putting your foot in your mouth? I know you’re a very intelligent man, so I can only assume there’s a motive here…”

Yer on to something there. Let's not make this about me. Let's also just say that I have probably lived a very different life and am from a very different culture than many of the people on this forum. I've never been on the “inside” of a group before, so before talking to people I have to figure out what style they use and how I should talk. It is hard to do here.

First let me apologize again for writing and sending without putting enough thought into how it would affect others. I'm working on that.
Next, let me say that there are fundamental differences between the majority of female and male speach in every culture, so I'm not saying that this is a bogus issue, it is a very real issue.

My point is that this may have absolutely nothing to do with masculine or feminine ways of being, more than they are common and patterned communicative styles. The general consensus seems to be that there are a few people that feel that their voices aren't being “heard.”
All human communication consists of 2 elements. The creative and new uses of standard grammer and set patterned styles. If speach didn't have both these elements, then communication wouldn't happen. I'm sure everyone here takes for granted the fact that we use a linear communicative style of one thing leading to another, but this isn't universal either.
This is most likely an issue of different communicative styles being preferred and understood better than others. So the issue isn't to feel or nurture our masculine or feminine essenses, as these are just concepts that we largely made up anyway, it is a matter of learning to communicate in a different way.
The studies done by female scholars show that there are men that utilize what would be considered a female communicative style, and women that use what would be thought of as a male style. So this is really just a matter of saying that the majority of white, middle to upper class, American women have a particular style of communication. When encountering a group or a person that uses another style misunderstandings and irritation can ensue.
For example, in this particular speech style, everyone must wait a turn, and no one is allowed to monopolize the conversation. When this happens it is noticed immediately and stigmatized. I think that Gina and others are waiting for their particular style to be respected and used by others, and are having a hard time when other people “just don't get it.” That is use other styles. This issue won't be solved until we understand the underlying and immediate causes, and how to change how we write when communicating to different people on this forum.

This isn't really any different than traveling in a different culture and trying to communicate with others. Many Native Americans have written extensively on how intrusive, rude and wordy the “white man's” communicative style is, both men and women.
So it would be much more pragmatic and sensible to just learn about these different styles, learn to recognize them and when they are being used, to avoid misunderstanding and hurt feelings.
The only real difference that I saw in the female only thread was a universal use of a particular style that isn't primarily used in other threads. It's called textual analysis.
Linguists like Deborah Tannen believe that this difference in communicative styles is a major, if not the main, reason for the glass ceiling in American companies. She found that when both women and men utilized a communicative style that was labeled as feminine, they had a low promotion rate, while women that used a “masculine” communicative style didn't report these problems.
Communication is a great deal more than words and grammer. It tells others where your from, your social status, whether you are more or less agressive, etc…
There are different styles used by men and women in every culture, but they aren't the same that we use in ours. So an Australian woman may have a lot of problems communicating with a Japanese woman speaking English or Japanese. The Japanese use an active listening style that sounds interuptive to us, but to sit attentively and listen to a Japanese person without making noise at the end of every sentence is rude to them.  Or if one of the woman on this forum struck up a conversation with a black woman from inner city Baltimore or Atlanta, you might not click either, but you wouldn't say it was because that other woman was not respecting or giving your inner feminine voice the space it needs.
My wife, who is Japanese, had a horrible time when she first moved to South Texas. She would compain to me constantly that local woman would be really rude to her on the phone or ignore her requests at a store or doctor's office or at work. She got really depressed about this, so I coached her in the different style used by Mexican-American women in south Texas. I worked with her to lower her voice, speak louder, look people in the eye, etc… and the problem disapeared. For the phone, all she had to do was lower her voice and it worked. In Japan a woman who speaks with a high voice is considered to be of a higher class and is more respected.

You may think that this is over intellectualizing a subject that ya'll have already made up your minds on, but this is what I went to school for.

Re: Integral Feminine

Some people might be wondering what the hell a non-linear communicative style, from my last post, would sound like, so here's an example of a Trobian Islander explaining how to plant a coconut tree in their native language. This is from an old ethnography.

“Thou-approach-there coconut thou-bring-here-we-plant-coconut thou-go-thou-plant our coconut. This-here it-emerge sprout. We-push-away this we-push away this-other coconut-husk-fiber together sprout it-sit together root.”

They are able to speak in a linear style, but they only do so when speaking of things they consider non-essential, or talk about other island cultural goups who speak in a linear way, which they consider vulgar.

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi, Rick,

I hear you on communication styles. I think you're onto something here as well. When communication styles clash, the WE doesn't arise. You don't understand me, and I don't understand you.

That said, I think there's more to the fragmentation we're talking about than just that. In American culture, it seems we have largely dissociated from feminine energy and impulses in the public sphere. Sure, groups of women get together and express communion in pockets all over the U.S. and the world; however, in the public sphere, in politics, in relations between men and women, and in relations between men and men (and men and themselves), the feminine has been trampled on, denied, repressed and dissociated from. In many cases, this is true for women in relationship as well. The almighty phallus has ruled for millenia, and we are suffering for the partiality. Of course, we need to embrace both impulses, instead of (as in militant feminism) repress the masculine impulses.

Re: Integral Feminine

Colin:
instead of (as in militant feminism) repress the masculine impulses.

It's funny, no, how militant feminists go into their masculine to repress the masculine, thinking that they're actually promoting feminism?

A female friend pointed this out to me recently.

Peter

Re: Integral Feminine

Colin: “I submit: Look at Her. Listen to Her. Let Her rage and cry and look you in the eyes with her eyes that seem to boil. And then join Her in the dance of pain. The dance of recognition. The dance that says emphatically, YES!”

Mascha: “JUST FEEL THE PAIN, that's all.”


This is a great message, and I'm hearing it. I was looking into the same issue in a UL sort of way recently, and now you're bringing it into the LL (though I realize you've been on this for awhile; thanks for driving it home).

The masculine way of showing love is often to do something to try to ease the pain, or suggest some kind of fix, and that's sometimes appropriate, but there isn't much communion in that,  and communion, or a sharing in the pain, is healing in itself. Right?

And sometimes the masculine jumps to suggesting a fix just because he doesn't want to feel the pain, eh?

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Oh, man, thank you so much for your openness.

David: “The masculine way of showing love is often to do something to try to ease the pain, or suggest some kind of fix, and that's sometimes appropriate, but there isn't much communion in that,  and communion, or a sharing in the pain, is healing in itself. Right?

And sometimes the masculine jumps to suggesting a fix just because he doesn't want to feel the pain, eh?”

What I'm groping my way into – slowly, painfully – is going beyond the choice between either communion or a quick fix, where you spring into action….. a way of being where I don't have to divorce myself from any feeling, however uncomfortable, in order to do something. Where nothing is cut off; where I exist as a whole human being, present to all aspects of myself.

Does this make sense?

love,

M

Re: Integral Feminine

Yes, David, that is EXACTLY what I was getting at implicitly. Thanks for making it explicit. (I realized I wanted to do that when I was driving home from work yesterday; you did it for me.) The masculine drive wants to FIX things. I watch this dynamic in my parents and in myself. What the feminine wants is simply to be witnessed and embraced for ALL that she is.

Mascha, ooh, that's good! How do we incorporate both the feminine and masculine drives, within ourselves and in culture? This is definitely a BOTH/AND for me. The feminine needs to express and be witnessed, and the masculine needs to act. The masculine can act, too, as long as the feminine is witnessed first. Witnessing, listening, opening…I try to allow those impulses to arise and then I can move into contemplating, questioning, formulating…an action.

Beautiful, everyone!

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Rick,

I enjoyed reading the linguistics information you posted and found some truths in what you said about people not understanding each other based on the style or 'norms' of their culture.  My grandmother was born in Italy and spoke with a strong accent my entire life.  Aside from the translation that would have to happen in her head before she spoke, she also struggled with humor and other more suble levels of communication style.  It is always interesting to hear more indepth information about communication.

Which is also why I find it so interesting you have mentioned me here and on another thread in relation to my comments to you about your style and also analyze what you believe my motivations are for starting the Women's thread.   I love what you have to say, I read it, I tend to enjoy most of the content (except when you get verbose) and I respect your opinions on subjects which you seem to have a strong understanding.

Where I continue to see the gaps between us is in the depth of desire to see, feel and hear the other's words and opinions.  Your style above shows a disrespect by saying we repeat ourselves and that you really didn't need to read all of what we said to get the jist of the content.  Ok…. for you, maybe that is true.  Except (and here's the point , if you had stayed with me this far) it is in the subtle/subtext that the real meaning of the words comes out.  It is the Depths of our beings we are sharing and you are reading us like we are textbooks.  We are rich novels to be savored…..

Take care my friend,

Gina

Re: Integral Feminine

Frans,

I'm not really sure how to respond to your request. I don't want to appear to have ignored the issue, but I don't really understand what's expected of me. It seems like this is more than just an abstract exercise, there are many hidden currents here that I don't feel equipped to navigate.

My past attempts to embrace my feminine voice have nearly always been aggressively and sometimes abusively discouraged. This has always been by women – I have never really attempted that with other men – so I'm a little cynical about the idealized portraits of the feminine that I've been reading lately. Sadly, this is a routine part of the male experience.

I think it's worth noting that we aren't being asked to embrace our feminine side for our own sake – it's only really an issue because women have been hurt by it. I'm not trying to minimize those feelings at all, we definitely need to do something about that. But the culture has the expectation that mens' experience has no value in and of itself, while women's feelings are always important, and the repetition of this meme seems deeply opposed to the stated goal of this thread.

I'm sure that many people will want to say that they don't think this is happening at all. And that's fine, maybe you are right.

Or, maybe it's our fault for not speaking up in the first place? You are probably right about that too.

Re: Integral Feminine

Mr. TC,

You mentioned something that I've been noticing, not as a strong current, but as an undercurrent – and it is something I commented on in one of Jane's earlier posts several months ago:  a tendency to paint idealized portraits of the feminine, and to contrast those portraits with more realistic (if not pathetic) portraits of the masculine.  For instance, in Jane's recent post, you have the contrast between the pure, transformative raw force of Women's heart-anger with the dominating, violent, war-mongering, child-beating, women-raping, dinner-ruining anger of Men. 

In no way am I denying that men's edginess and aggression have caused a great deal of harm, domestically and socially.  But the pictures, in their incompleteness, bear a stamp of idealism that … well, I think it's worth noting.  And maybe we can respond in kind – not by comparing ourselves to woman at her worst, but by attempting to articulate ourselves at our best, to stand forth as fully as Gina and Jane and Mascha and others are calling their sisters to do.

B.

Re: Integral Feminine

TC and Balder, thank you for bringing this awareness to the group. I missed the juxtaposition of the idealized feminine with the pathological masculine in my quick reads and responses. I think many of Jane's points were right on, and I think there's more to the story that needs to be filled in. Thanks for starting that.

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Mr. Teacup, when you write

I think it's worth noting that we aren't being asked to embrace our feminine side for our own sake - it's only really an issue because women have been hurt by it.

–I wonder if you took the time to read this, from Lauren's post in the Integral Women thread:

I have intuited the depth and horror of the grievous wounding boys inevitably endure in patriarchal cultures, and I have experienced how that wound essentially abandons them to a nearly impossible situation, forcing them to self-fragment so violently, that true relational and psychological health (or the ability to thrive in any case) is a great rarity. I trust that the act of assuming true responsibility requires a foundation of self-awareness, emotional literacy, and healed shame that is damn hard for a man to come by in this (and most) cultures. But, can we at least acknowledge this then? That this is the miserable situation we find ourselves in now? Can we stop pretending that just because we are a fairly self-aware group that we are anywhere close to freedom from chronic, primarily unconscious, utterly foundational devaluing of the Feminine? And can we stop pretending that this is not horribly unhealthy and wounding for all involved?

In that last sentence there, how do you read “all involved?” Do you think it refers to only women, or to women and men?

I'm wanting to point this out because while there has been recent focus here on women and on women's pain, I think you're misrepresenting things when you claim that “it's only an issue because women have been hurt by it.” I wonder why you don't pick up on the concern for “all of us?”

Mary

Re: Integral Feminine

Mary,

I did read that, and I think it's wonderful. Of course, my comments don't apply to everyone, but they still seem relevant. In the post you quote, Lauren also says she fears that what she says will be misunderstood, so perhaps she shares my concerns?

~Teacup

Re: Integral Feminine

Mr. Teacup, just saw something on my homepage that I thought I'd post to back you up.
It was a cheezy “tips for singles” power point thing with 4 tips for both men and women.
Here's one of the one's for men:

Talk … and listen! For women, conversation and emotional connection is a source of foreplay. This does NOT mean she wants to hear you brag about your income or high-powered job. She wants you to ask about her! Try asking about her career goals, her family, or her friends. Ask what her favorite movie is, or where she likes to eat. And then – and this is the important part – remember what she says! Nobody wants to hear the infamous, “Uh – what was your name again?”

This is as true for men, so why is it ok for me to ask a woman a question that will allow her to yak away about herself, yet I'm forbodden from doing the same to the same extent? Sometimes my wife wants to talk endlessly about the same thing, just kind of repeat herself over and over, and wants me to share in this with her. I just can't do it, it's just not in me.
My ticket out of it is to make her laugh and forget about whatever the hell it was that she was talking about. There's shit that I talk to my best friend about and no one else, I don't expect her to fill that role. She's used to talking to her sister for 3 hours about thier day! I can cover my life up to my early twenties in 3 hours, so I wonder what could happen in a day that takes that long to talk about! This love and romanticism for inefficiency must die!!!!
(see that was a joke, that's my silly side, just for your Gina)
(serious again)
My wife on the other hand is amazed at how much setiment and feeling and understanding I can communicate with my best friend with so few words. If I can say it is 5 words then 30 is just pointless to me.
After a big fight with a friend of mine, about 10 mins. after it, my wife was left speechless when we make up with a certain look, and saying just this. “Sorry man.” “We cool?” “Yeh, it's cool.” “Alright cool.” Then a shake and a hug and that's it. It is really over at that point. I'm not harboring shit, it's really done.
Later on she was still amazed and said, “A man's world is so easy, it's amazing, that would have taken a whole day with one of my friends.” And she's right. So, why do we have to change?

Here's one for the ladies:

Find your own source of happiness. Women tend to equate their self-worth with their dating roster. If you've been going through a dry spell, or routinely seem to never get that second date, it could be that you're coming off as too needy. Your life shouldn't center on whom or whether you're dating. Fill your life with things that make you happy, such as friends, work, hobbies, and family. A man should complement your life, not complete it.

Again, just as true for men as it is for women.

In the end Mr. Teacup is right, we're not being told to respect some of the women's communicative style on the forum, we're being told to adopt them. Lauren's post is true and beautiful and largely alone in a sea of other post. The underlying subtext of it though is that the psychic wounds of men, caused by the devaluing of expressing strong emotions other than anger in public, is in the end bad for everyone, but mainly bad for women. “Our” disfunction makes shit difficult for everyone, and is what's causing the present consternation in this forum.
I don't come to this forum for a group hug, I come here because there aren't many people on earth that I can discuss such a broad range of issues with smart people. Is that wrong of me?

I just deleted a paragraph of my actual honest feelings, that no one actually wants to hear, because in me experience when a woman tells me that she wants to hear me express my true feelings, the last thing she wants from me is honesty.

Are most women actually that selfless anyway, or is it just the need to stroke the egos and feelings of others just so we can get some reciprical stroking on the back end.  If this style was somehow better, then why is it that I have the same best friend since I was 5 and most women change friends like fashion accessories. It takes a lot time to build the kind of trust and respect that bonds men together for a lifetime.

That's an honest question.

And after reading this post, don't take it so seriously, don't think that just because I wrote something just now that it represents the complete and totality of my views of feeling of anything.  We are taking ourselves way too seriously here, who's so important that they can't be fucked with every now and again. There's no reason to read more into it than it is, which isn't much.

Re: Integral Feminine

This love and romanticism for inefficiency must die!!!!
(see that was a joke, that's my silly side, just for your Gina)

:D

thanks (I would have put an emcon there but ….twisting my hair…. i just couldn't figure out how do it)  blink blink.

Re: Integral Feminine

Dear all

No time to read this burgeoning thread now, so I'm going to slot in a suggestion and hope it hasn't already been said.

Perhaps given the size of the topic, we discuss the questions one at a time, similar to the way we're doing Gilead one section per week. I too had similar feelings to Mary's re: time spent on the pod and out in the real world. This might make it manageable. Maybe Tim's  thread is the clearing house for those responses?

Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

Mr. TCup and Holden,

I appreciate your contributions, comments and questions! 

I also wonder… I'm asking all…. with respect and love, if some of this might also be age and experience related…  Gasp?  As I enter my 40s (did I just admit that? ;-) I see/experience/ relate to the gender issues differently.  I can understand some of the points being made, yet they seem a bit distant to me now.  They seem true, relevant but partial…. for instance:  if I think back to my late 20s then I know that seeing a man express his feelings too much created discomfort in me.  In my early 30s with the birth of my first child, I was totally revamped, as the feminine force surged through me, mercilessly out of my control.  So my mid-late 30s were revisiting and reinventing my femininity….  with the catalyst of my divorce and other cataclysmic cycles hitting me last year, I feel like I am re-engaging and reaching a new fitness level with my inner M/F (and thus externally as well)… a flexibility, flow, access, authenticity among the 2.

Am I even close to a mark here?  Anyone want to chime in? 

~ Stac

Re: Integral Feminine

Hi Stacy,

I think you're absolutely right here, and to me it's a very important point you're making. Both our feminine and masculine sides move through stages. It seems to me that we can even be predominantly feminine in some lines, while more masculine in others. For example, some men have a masculine sexuality but a feminine mode of communicating.

Btw, reading this back reminds me of something I read in the Dutch edition of Men's Health, which has an article about the physiochemical differences between male and female brains.  Apparently, in relationships, sex is to the masculine what talking is to the feminine…

Integral people want to do both, of course :)

Wishing you lots of masculine communication!

Peter

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MrT:
My past attempts to embrace my feminine voice have nearly always been aggressively and sometimes abusively discouraged. This has always been by women – I have never really attempted that with other men – so I'm a little cynical about the idealized portraits of the feminine that I've been reading lately. Sadly, this is a routine part of the male experience.

I recognize this, but I found out recently that women just (unconciously) respond to my own insecurities. When you're trying to embrace the feminine, and a woman responds negatively, that can have several reasons. Since you go into your feminine, a woman might go into her masculine mode, and lash out. So than you know what that generally feels like for women :) In that case, you actually get attacked by the masculine, not by the feminine.

There is also pathological feminine, and immature (selfish) feminine, of course. But it might require some feminine qualities in men to accurately spot the one you're dealing with.

A more mature woman will give you space to talk about your feelings, but might not tolerate you being insecure too much around her. Too much insecurity can be a huge disappointment to the feminine. And a turn-off, sexually.

Striking the right balance between being sensitive enough to feel into a woman's needs and being confident in your masculinity at the same time isn't that easy. But that's what advanced masculinity is all about, it needs a well developed feminine counterpart. I'm still struggling to really get there, meaning that right now my masculine side is trying to catch up…

For any men looking for a reason to get in touch with their feminine side more: sex becomes way better! :)

Neither the feminine nor the masculine really works without the other, and this is true inside each of us, inside this pod, and in our societies at large. They need each other to dance, and we either dance or fight.

Peter

Re: Integral Feminine

TC:

“My past attempts to embrace my feminine voice have nearly always been aggressively and sometimes abusively discouraged. This has always been by women – I have never really attempted that with other men – so I’m a little cynical about the idealized portraits of the feminine that I’ve been reading lately. Sadly, this is a routine part of the male experience.”

Rick:

“…the psychic wounds of men, caused by the devaluing of expressing strong emotions other than anger in public, is in the end bad for everyone, but mainly bad for women. “Our” disfunction makes shit difficult for everyone, and is what’s causing the present consternation in this forum.”

So, if I’m hearing you right, the underlying difficulty is that “we” don’t understand “each other”, leading to a lack of acceptance and feelings of being hurt by the opposite sex…

Wouldn’t understanding the role of the feminine in males - and the masculine in females - help us understand the other sex better, just like understanding women would help us understand the role of the feminine in “us men” better? We can say that it didn’t work in the past, so why try again - but that makes no sense, does it? It’s a fallacy to think that you’re all masculine without feminine parts/influences - we all have access to both, so we might as well try to work with those parts and understand them better.

I do believe that Stacy is right when she brings in the age factor - I am in my forties (hard to believe as that might be for me) and have definitely gone through stages of non-acceptance of my whole being in my 20ies and 30ies, but just the fact that younger people have joined this discussion is reason enough to realize I am a little slow and others are progressing a lot faster. Maybe us wrinklies can add some calmness to the discussion, Stac…

Bruce, I’m going to quote you somewhat out of context:

“And maybe we can respond in kind – not by comparing ourselves to woman at her worst, but by attempting to articulate ourselves at our best, to stand forth as fully as Gina and Jane and Mascha and others are calling their sisters to do.”

I for one trust that everyone participating here has good intentions and if hurtful stuff comes up I think we can take it in stride - after all, if we feel hurt it means we have something more we can work on. As long as we keep in mind that we’re all working at becoming more complete, can we really go wrong? As Rick said, there are few opportunities to connect with a group of smart, dedicated people like we have here.

If only for one reason: “…sex becomes way better! :)” as Peter said!

Frans

Re: Integral Feminine

Please see the new thread Integral Men as well.


Pelle

Re: Integral Feminine

Peter said: “A more mature woman will give you space to talk about your feelings, but might not tolerate you being insecure too much around her. Too much insecurity can be a huge disappointment to the feminine. And a turn-off, sexually.”

MrT said: “My past attempts to embrace my feminine voice have nearly always been aggressively and sometimes abusively discouraged. This has always been by women - I have never really attempted that with other men - so I'm a little cynical about the idealized portraits of the feminine that I've been reading lately. Sadly, this is a routine part of the male experience.”


So true! I suppose, to take responsibility for the issue, we might say that we misunderstood what healthy, or evolved feminine really is. We–those males who attempted to evolve past the John Wayne archetype– took it to mean “bare all your insecurities and vulnerabilities and sense of dependence and there will be a great payoff,” but the payoff never came. But what does the feminine really mean, at least evolved feminine? According to Carol Gilligan women grow through four stages: selfish, care, universal care, and integrated (egocentric, ethnocentric, worldcentric, integral), so universal care figures pretty big, though of course the name of the game here is integral. And what is the feminine gift to evolution? Nurturing, greater integration, harmony, deeper communion … so it doesn't have anything to do with baring our insecurites for all to hear, but rather employing a certain kind of strength.

MrT said:   “I think it's worth noting that we aren't being asked to embrace our feminine side for our own sake - it's only really an issue because women have been hurt by it.”

Rick said:  “Our” disfunction makes shit difficult for everyone, and is what's causing the present consternation in this forum.”

Very good points. Women are being encouraged to embrace their masculine so that they can be more whole and get good things in the world; men are being encouraged to embrace the feminine so that they can become less pathological. More on this in the wounding of boys thread. Men are also encouraged to become less masculine because there is the sense that it's a zero-sum game–if men get less, women will get more.
   

Rick said: “I don't come to this forum for a group hug, I come here because there aren't many people on earth that I can discuss such a broad range of issues with smart people. Is that wrong of me?”
 
Men have been pathologized for this at times as well. It's not wrong, just the masculine value sphere.
  
 

Rick said: “Sometimes my wife wants to talk endlessly about the same thing, just kind of repeat herself over and over, and wants me to share in this with her. I just can't do it, it's just not in me.”
 

Re: Integral Feminine

“Colin:
instead of (as in militant feminism) repress the masculine impulses.

It's funny, no, how militant feminists go into their masculine to repress the masculine, thinking that they're actually promoting feminism?

A female friend pointed this out to me recently.

Peter”

Yes, I was going to mention the same thing. Andrew Harvey, when he was speaking about the Divine Feminine, agreed that the feminine had been repressed, oppressed, etc., but he objected to militant feminism, saying that it had to be done “in the Mother's own way.” What did he mean by that? Without negativity, without destroying anything that shouldn't be destroyed. Also I think it means not seeing it all as a zero-sum game, thinking if men are brought down then women will have a chance to rise.

Re: Integral Feminine

Well done Guys for the Integral Men thread.

Its fascinating reading so far, I really want to find out what is integral masculinity and then as Pelle points out acknowledge both in myself from my own strong base of integral feminine (which isn't fully visible or acknowledged yet even by myself).

Juliee

Re: Integral Feminine

I woke up to some incredible posts! …. Smokin'! 

To highlight Peter's comments which grabbed me:

I recognize this, but I found out recently that women just (unconciously) respond to my own insecurities.  When you're trying to embrace the feminine, and a woman responds negatively, that can have several reasons.

My experience is that when insecurities enter the picture - masculine or feminine - look out!  If the interaction is less than conscious, the negative patterns, wounds, hurts, mishandlings that these threads have been discussing (IN Women, IN Fem, Wounding Boys) will most likely propagate in a bullish/remedial dance or fight (for healing, evolution ;-)….  this can occur between opp sex as well as same sex since we have access to both M/F inside us all.


Since you go into your feminine, a woman might go into her masculine mode, and lash out. So than you know what that generally feels like for women :) In that case, you actually get attacked by the masculine, not by the feminine.

Oh yes…. been there, done that.  Sorry to you and me for those experiences <3

A more mature woman will give you space to talk about your feelings, but might not tolerate you being insecure too much around her. Too much insecurity can be a huge disappointment to the feminine. And a turn-off, sexually.

Insecurity is a turn-off, not vulnerability or transparency (ditto for feminine insecurity too), IMHO.

Many a time, I felt that my male partner would come to me to share his feelings, but repeatedly it was to vent, complain and blame.  It also seemed to me that he unconsciously wanted me to “take it on for him”…. so I began to feel that I was an emotional trash can/ recycle bin.  (Of course, I unconsciously did so for many years)…  this created great entropy as we continued to externalize and lean on each others respective M/F.  Ultimately it created impotence as we simply “avoided” the sometimes cumbersome and consuming work of pruning our insides, and growing.

Striking the right balance between being sensitive enough to feel into a woman's needs and being confident in your masculinity at the same time isn't that easy. But that's what advanced masculinity is all about, it needs a well developed feminine counterpart. I'm still struggling to really get there, meaning that right now my masculine side is trying to catch up…

Ditto for the feminine to find the flexible and accessible balance of sweet full and open feminine power (embrace) with the ability to confidently lead, hold firm and hit the mark.  I believe this is what David Deida calls third stage.… 3rd stage evolution of masculine and feminine. 

For any men looking for a reason to get in touch with their feminine side more: sex becomes way better! :)

A totally divine dance…. definitely worth it!!!  I could get more explicit here ;-)  …. mmm, delicious, the exquisite polarities that engage and energize with each other (internally, externally and many combinations thereof)…. that's another thread ;-)

Neither the feminine nor the masculine really works without the other, and this is true inside each of us, inside this pod, and in our societies at large. They need each other to dance, and we either dance or fight.

And when you get the choice to (fight) it out or dance
I hope you dance
I hope you dance

[LeeAnn Womack, I Hope You Dance] …. editted by me, not a country fan but I like the sentiment ;-)

Born a Twin,
~ Stacy (w/ Steven)

Re: Integral Feminine

Lol,

I read your post on the Men's thread and it touched me very much. 

Thank you for sharing yourself, your life experience and your lens to the world.  Its a view I am so grateful to see.

Gina