UFOs

On the Larry King Show this evening, a panel of several people testified about their experiences with UFOs.  They were making an appearance on the program apparently in anticipation of an event in Washington, DC, this coming week, where officials and military folks from around the world will be meeting to discuss the UFO phenomenon - and to present the positive evidence that has been collected to date.

What do you think of this topic?  Is it a modern mythology, a technological twist on the same prerational, magical/mythic forms of thinking that have given us gods and goblins throughout the ages?  Or is there something to it - something that defies reduction to naïve cultural projections? 

It isn't a topic that is discussed much in Integral circles.  Should it be?

I think it is very likely that life exists elsewhere in the universe.  I would be surprised (and disappointed) if it didn't.  I am less sure that any of those life forms are actually visiting us right now.  I am open to the idea, but not convinced … I have not seen enough yet that would allow me to feel comfortable taking a decisive stand for it or against it.

A number of years ago, I was in an unusual position that allowed me to hear testimony that probably many people haven't heard.  I was working as a court reporter and was asked to transcribe a number of interviews with military officials, again in preparation for a meeting that was going to be taking place with government employees in the US capital in several months.  For fun, and hoping I'm not breaking any rules here, I'm going to quote from one of the transcripts I made.  I will change the names just to be safe.

~*~

COL. D:  I am LD, Colonel, U.S.A.F., retired.  I got a bachelor of science degree, and then the Air Force sent me to the _______ Business School to study management, and then promptly assigned me to Washington, DC.  And I served in the Chief of Staff's Office for orientation, and then they put me into the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission where I became responsible for maintaining the inventory of the accountability of the nuclear weapon stockpile and involved in the security and the - you might say, auditing the manufacturing facilities and the storage facilities for all the nuclear weapons in the U.S.  And while I was there, I had my first incident with UFOs, which, in mid-July, they flew over Washington, DC, and I saw my first nine UFOs.

INTERVIEWER:  What year was this?

COL. D:  It was July of 1952.  And, of course, during that period of time I made a lot of contacts.  I was a staff officer for the military liaison committee between the chairman of the AEC and the Secretary of Defense.  And so, I became acquainted with not only the Army, Navy, and Air Force, but civilian agencies, the CIA, the National Security Agency, and other contacts which I developed.  During that period of time, one of my functions was to accompany a security team, which visited all of the nuclear facilities to check on the security of weapons.  And we were getting reports of visits by UFOs over the storage facilities and even some of the manufacturing facilities.  And that went on continuously.

Now, we found that the reports - the formal reports were few and far between, but security people were reluctant to report many of them because the protocol and the bureaucracy involved in reporting them - they just avoided reporting. 

Later, I was assigned to the Sandia Corporation as a military liaison, and I was involved in establishing a quality assurance program for the manufacture and the quality and the maintenance of their nuclear weapons.  So we had to visit all of the manufacturing facilities such as [inaudible] and the Pantex facility, which assembled the nuclear components of [inaudible].  And so, there again, we observed the UFOs, who were very much interested in the facilities that we were visiting.  But we did get constant referrals.  What are all these UFOs hovering there for?

And so, then, after that - this was during the 1950s, through the entire ‘50s.  Then I was assigned to the United Pacific Command under Admiral Phelps during the ‘60s, and I was the officer in charge of the alternate command post involved with nuclear weapon operation planning.  And during that period of time, I was - I maintained contacts with NORAD, with the SAC operations, involved [inaudible] operational plans for the use of nuclear weapons.  And during this period of time, I also learned of a number of incidents which happened.

And then further on I finally retired from the Air Force and joined the Boeing Company, where I was assigned to the Minute Man program where I was responsible for the configuration accounting of all the nuclear fleet, the Minute Man One, Two, and Three.  And during that period of time, I also learned about incidents involving nuclear weapons.  And among these incidents were a couple of nuclear weapons sent into space that were destroyed by the extraterrestrials.  But in talking to various contacts throughout, they would allude to the fact that these did happen.  There was - for example, the missile - a Minute Man missile was destroyed at the launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base.  That's now a matter of public record.

Well, the one incident, for example, was they actually photographed the UFO following the missile as it climbed into space and shining a beam of light on it, which neutralized the missile.  And this was recorded.  It was all hushed up.  And they split up the team that observed it, but of course eventually the news came out.  And it was later published, and we confirmed it…

~*~

This is just an excerpt from the interview.  He also talked about a number of other incidents, some of which he witnessed firsthand.  He also described the study of extraterrestrial artifacts at Los Alamos and Livermore that he knew about.  He closed the interview by saying that there were quite a few people like him who were getting up in years and who were just tired of not talking about these experiences, and he believed that “sooner or later the truth will come out.”

Re: UFOs

I've been waiting for 20 years for this particular aspect of the truth to be widely known. It never happened. There must be millions worldwide by now who've had some direct, first-hand experience of these visitors, and yet the story still hasn't broken into mainstream consciousness.

m

Re: UFOs

200 billion suns in our galaxy alone.  A billion is a huge number.  To frame it, consider a cash machine that will deliver a dollar a second 24hrs a day.  It would take 11 days straight to build up a million dollars.  To become a billionaire, it would take 32 years.  200 billion is a huge number.  If only 1/100 of 1% of these suns might harbor life and 1/100 of 1% of that number might have developed a technological capability, and only 1/100 of 1% of those had mastered relatively local space travel, and 1/100 of 1% of those could really beat the distance thing, then there would be 200 civilizations in our galaxy alone capable of distance travel in space.

The same statistical approach can be applied to the countless stories of UFO sightings.  If there were 1,000,000 stories to start with (not an unlikely number when you consider the reports from thousands of eye witnesses to the same “event”) and you eliminated all of the remotely suspect for unverifiability and etc and leave only the ones that stand up to a rigorous and collaborated interview - let's say a hundred really puzzling and seemingly irrefutable “encounters,” and still you had your skeptical hat on looking hard at these hundred, you would have to admit that it was not possible, statistically, that all of these people who had passed all previous screenings were still fantastic, conspiratorial, deluded, hallucinating, liars.  You would have to admit, from a statistical perspective that at least one was telling the truth.  One is all it takes to accept the inevitability of the phenomenon.  In other words, both the opportunity set and the incident set are too large to sustain disbelief.  “Why not?” becomes the more legitimate question.

Re: UFOs

Hey, Mascha and Michael, I'm glad to have some company in the tinfoil hat club!

Just kidding.  I think it is certain that there is life elsewhere in the cosmos, and believe it is likely (as Michael so nicely illustrated) that at least some of these beings will be capable of far distance space travel.  The question then is, Even if this is so, are any actually coming here?  I have hesitated to come down and state with certainty that “they're here,” simply because even if we acknowledge that out of all those who report seeing UFOs, there must be some who are telling the truth (I believe many are), we still don't know exactly what they're seeing.

The only “classical” UFO sighting I've had took place when I was a boy.  I watched a greenish point of light move across the sky, and then make a sharp right angle turn and fly away at a very high speed.  I've had some other, archetypal dream-like experiences that mirror other aspects of this phenomenon.  I'm not sure how, or even if, this physical sighting and these other more spiritual experiences are related.  (Not only in my case, but in general.  I raise the question because some writers on this phenomenon actually blur the line between physical and subtle/dream experiences, suggesting that there are beings who inhabit a space that can cross over between these dimensions of experience.)

A question that isn't often discussed when considering advanced extraterrestrial life forms, should any exist, is exactly “how” or in what ways such beings might actually be “advanced.”  Integral – and the Wilber-Combs lattice – suggest that the evolutionary arc will not only encompass many lines, but may well also involve a deepening in state experience and the attainment of high state-stage development.  Many popular depictions focus mostly on the technological and cognitive lines of development, perhaps just because that is what is most evident.  If beings develop not only technologically but in these other ways as well, then this blurring between “spiritual”/subtle and “technological”/gross phenomena may actually be something to expect.

Re: UFOs

…*they* are here…we are them…Earth is a planet where souls come into existence for the first time but I would venture a guess that many posting at zaadz have an extraterestial soul origin…where ever you see the cutting edge of cultural change that is a good indication…most are not *contracted* to be fully awake…that is not a nessisary pre-requisite…but look around and you will see their faces…

Re: UFOs

…UFOs that are visible are considered the jalopies of the universe…and most of them belong to our government…plasma drive is a reality…our government has two space programs…one for the public and one that they are desparately trying to keep secret…landings of other beings and contact will become common place within the next generation…but first Earth will have moved up an octave…the ones responcible for abductions are not of the highest sort…

…people are so afraid to even consider these things…but we need to release the flatlander mentality to get on with the business of raising the frequency…take off the tin foil hats…

Re: UFOs

Hey all…

Just jumping into the pod after a long absence. This thread caught my eye because I recently saw a very interesting documentary about crop circles, aka agriglyphs. I didn't know that there have been over 9000 documented agriglyphs since the 50s. I also didn't know that, according to the researchers, new mathematical theorems have been constructed based on some of the geometrical formations. I didn't go looking for this DVD; it came up randomly when I was looking for rentals at Blockbuster.com (egad! not the imperialist, censoring, mom and pop store killer!) I felt that viewing it was time well spent.

Re: UFOs

I'm 100% with Michael on this one - the odds on us being the only “intelligent” life form are pretty much nill.

Frans

Re: UFOs

I strongly believe that there is life out there, and have a tendency to want to believe that other sentient beings have visited this planet. I'm just not sure about the lot of stories. There is tons of honest testimony - I've read about it so much over the years. Some are mistaken, some are authentically an unexplained phenomenon. That, coupled with some, and I mean some, alien abduction descriptions, make a good case for their “visitation.” Trying to take an integral perspective on this … I guess it would be cautious of me to say that if there is a sentient, intelligent life form contacting us, we will interpret it according to our own structures of consciousness, and experience as it occurs differently than another. That may go a long way to describe why alot of alien contact stories to sound purple/animalistic and mythic like in nature. It also may describe some of the pathologies that accompany this, such as narcissistic tendencies to believe your sperm is being used by the aliens to create the future hybrid race. It's a hazey line between the narcissistic, the mythic, and the authentic mystery of UFO's, aliens, or extra-dimensional beings. Whatever the case is, an integral model is definitely a big help to make things clearer.

What is everyone's take on alien abduction?

Re: UFOs

I hesitate in sharing this - but thought it might provide another perspective and I think most of you have heard from me enough on II to know that I am very very well grounded. This is not about UFO's but about the topic of life on other planets, visitations, etc.

This is my daughter's first life time on the Earth. All previous lifetimes have been spent (I think) primarily on a specific planet (I don' t know the name/location, but I've seen it in dreams as well as the people and some various other environmental qualities). She's now 22 and I first became aware of this when I was expecting her. I have been a lucid dreamer for quite some time and had several very amazing dream experiences during my pregnancy. I will tell you that I have O % interest really in the topic at all and never had an interest in anything of this nature. As a young child it was obvious she was very different. She had abilities to see spirits of all types and our house seemed to be a gateway of sorts. Between her and my son (16 months apart  - he's a natural born dreamwalker but untrained and so some very interesting phenomenon occured in our house regularly) life was an adventure in the spirit world on a weekly basis for years. Some years after she was born, a teacher of mine validated my thoughts about my daughter's soul home. My daughter, I will tell you, isn't all that pleased about being here. She found all of it highly curious - just all of it and mostly kept to herself - writing and drawing these amazing pictures that I'd wake up to in the morning. I later came to know that she and I had connected a long long long time ago on that planet prior to me beginning incarnations on the earth and had maintained a connection in spirit over this time.

I haven't read anything about any of this and as mentioned, even having a personal experience with this doesn't really peak my interest. I find life here on Earth pretty darn engaging enough. However, in my view, this is another way that people from other planets  are making contact here outside of the visitation type of process.

OK - so is this too weird for all of you?? Has any one else ever read or heard about this? 

Re: UFOs

Jayne,

No, not weird.  Probably more common than you might think.  For years and years I have concealed the suspicion that I am here from another planet myself.  That many of my last incarnations were on a post-apocalyptic planet that had long ago worked out this materialist bullshit and gotten down to the fruits of a deeply sustainable spiritual/theatrical community and economy.  All my life, I have been appalled at the way human beings treat each other.  I am coming to know who I am and why I am here and, like you, I feel there is enough here to keep me busy for the rest of this incarnation without slipping into some elitist fantasy about how totally blown everybody else is compared to me.  I used to think that but now with all this shadow uncloaking, I can see what a fuck I have been most of my life - covertly of course as the “look good” was pretty good despite the “do bad.”

Tell your daughter to quit bitching and get into it.  She's here for a reason and the sooner she discovers it the better off we will all be.  Being critical does not work.  Tell her that I already tried that for about 50 years or so.  Lovin' yourself and other people, that's what works as I am sure you know.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Jayne,

ps:  If you haven't already heard about the indigo children phenomenon, you might google it up and see.  It is a world fraught with a ton of bullshit, but there is a glimmer of a “something” in there that still holds definite traction for me.  I think I was perhaps born indigo but shadowed it upon discovering that the lack of affection in my life could be effectively but toxically replaced by attention.  Hence, I became an attention freak and corrupted right into the red/orange/green whoop-dee-doo with everyone else.  Consequently I got downright narcissistic and wounded big time developing a righteous victim/martyr shadow with a messianic cherry on top.  Today, I know that I am no messiah but I do like the feeling of Christ /Krishna consciousness as it rises on occasion within me.

Re: UFOs

Hey folks,

Jayne, you asked: Has any one else ever read or heard about this?  Yeh. My first meditation teacher (who I mentioned in a pm to you a while back) who had been a Jesuit in the Vatican in the 50s, was certain that his soul's origin was on/in another planet. I too was a dreamwalker in my first decade. I would include whoever interupted my outloud dream conversations in the conversation, without recall! That was pretty trippy for my parents.

Bruce, as a kid I saw what I thought was a satelite until it took a 90 degree turn and excellerated.

ShamanSun, I'm pretty sure I walked into a crop circle back in '79. There's more story to that; maybe later.


Toward the end of the cold war some in the the citizen diplomacy movement held out the hope that a difinitive extraterrestrial contact would inspire an kind of ethnocentricity at worldcentric, that a broad human unity would be affected through the recognition of a common other.

Since then I've come to see a whole set of developmental challenges that suggest a sliding scale of terms for stages. The subject/object, self/other progression seems evident in our perspectives on the 'big others', the challenges of kosmoscentricity. To me it's clear that the perspective of  'we're it, it's just us' expresses an egocentricity of even a post-conventional view.

IMP might offer the first decent chance at making sense of what we, as yet, understand least.

Still, I'm with Robert Frost on..”Earth's the right place for love. Don't know where it's likely to go better.”

Kerry

Re: UFOs

Jayne,

That's fascinating!  I too have little interest in the topic, but have thought for some time that it would be no more than logical that we manifest in various lifeforms, in various locations (in many more respects than just physical location).  I've never heard of an experience like your daughter's before but see it as just another part of the mystery of life - no need to analyze it in my eyes…

Frans

Re: UFOs

…okay…I'm et…I hope this doesn't tip the cart over…I came from a 5th D world where time is manipuable…I've had less than 10 incarnations…I was dropped off in the past and fast -forwarded so that I was prepared for this life …this is a pivotal generation and You are All a part of it…this is the changeing time…that's why you are at zaadz right?…to change the world?…this is part and parcel of the work…
   …I feel the faster we can get more critical mass to 3rd tier the sooner we can get this show on the road…

Re: UFOs

Fascinating, Will. Can you say more? I admire you for going so far out on a limb…

For info more immediately verifiable, here's a link Marianthi posted on the recent UFO thread at Heartmind forums.

  www.blog.agoracosmopolitan.com/?p=107,   


“Brazil, India and China are taking the lead on extraterrestrial awareness”, Mihir Sen, from the India Daily reports. “They want to make sure the emerging new world understands that we have to co-exist with our advanced extraterrestrial neighbours.” The Indian Daily reports that Extraterrestrials will be forced to more publically reveal themselves in order to try to avoid a planetary disaster which is projected to occur in 2012.

As human civilization is being destroyed under the hyprocisy which guides the Western Scientific and pseudo-religious Establishment, the timely needed enlightenment of human populations on a reported Extraterrestrial presence could very well be led by China.
The government of China, notwithstanding accounts of human rights abuses, appears to have constructively prepared members of that
society on the kind of potentially vital awareness context, which Western governments continue to deny its own societal members.”

~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: UFOs

Mascha, Dear Ones,

Thanks for including that alarming red quote summarizing the overriding sentiment among the many who have opened and are opening to the 12/21/12 date proposed by Mayan and other sources as the new millenial “end of time.”

I have been “on” this subject since I read an account of psycotropically-influenced cultural interaction by the McKenna bros. in 1968.  Simply, as an ethnobotanist and cultural anthropologist, the brothers contacted a previously sequestered tribe somewhere in Venezuela if memory serves.  Their protocol was fairly simple.  What they measured was the rate of information exchange between themselves and the native tribe they cozied up with.  Along with sharing language and habit while under the influence of psychotropics from both the native and First World compendia, the brothers routinely consulted the I Ching and recorded both the hexagrams and the rate/frequency/substance of the exchange of “habit” between themselves and the clan.  Deep into this study, they began to see a pattern emerging from the flow of the hexagrams superimposed on the important exchanges of skill, knowledge, and insight between the parties over “time”.  What emerged was an image of a multi-stranded rope that twisted open at the inception of the experiment and seemed to head towards a conclusion of sorts at a date fifty some years in the future.  As it turned out, once they got home and worked further on the details of the pattern, the date turned out to be 2012.  Neither brother at the time was aware of the significance of this date in Mayan deep astrology, but soon, they both were struck by the unfolding interpretations coming from the ongoing decoding of the Mayan calendar.

For those of you who are not aware of what the Mayan calendar points to, please allow the following description to encourage your curiosity:  simply, through dedicated observation, the Mayans and, perhaps, other astro-observational cultures which preceeded the Mayans, a certain galactic cycle had been noted as a repeating phenomenon.  Without detail, this cycle involves the up and down location of our part of the galaxy as it vibrates above and below the horizontal plane of the galaxy.  2012, precisely, as proposed by the current state of the art of this calculation, Dec. 21, 2012 is the moment when the earth will exactly coincide with this so-called galactic “plane.”

Boiling the Mayan heiroglyphic language down to its most basic, what is suggested, and what stands out as profoundly alarming, is the notion that what this co-incidence will precipitate is “an end to time.”

As this ultra-simplified reduction spreads thoughout the “millenial” community it has left the typical apocalyptic paranoia in its wake.  Dire shit, including the earth flipping on its axis, aborted rotation, mass extinctions from tectonic and corresponding volcanic activity, the collapse of civilizations and civility and on and on are swept into the doorway opened by the “end of time” summation. 

Compounding this “American” version of millenial thinking is the hoo-hah surrounding the predictions of Nostradamus as alchemized by the suggestions of Revelations in the bible.  To me, a critical co-incidence that has gone unnoticed in the years since Nostradamus produced his work, is the timing of his professions against the backdrop of European hegemony in the new world.  My suspicion is that Nostradamus became aware of the Mayan calendars basic notions about the “End of Time” as these notions were returned (in great secrecy) home to Europe on the ships bearing the gold and other loot acquired by the conquistadores.  Imo, the recent film The Fountain, by Darren Aronofsky attempts to address this issue obliquely but fails in the end to tie it in with any conviction.

To my knowledge, nothing in the Mayan calendar interpretations details such chaos.  Nevertheless, this “end of time” piece still stands out and begs for an integral interpretation.  My instinct and my intuition is that the “end of time” piece does not refer to material destruction so much as it does to our collective impression of WHAT TIME IS AS A PHENOMEMON.  I propose do develop this notion further as this discussion unfolds.

We are experiencing and coming to “know” a few things that support this intuition.  First, there is a collective sense that, despite all the friggin' low-end monkey-motion going on around here, the earth's cog is being forcefully raised, awareness is expanding, and the global perspective set is moving from 2p through 3p and on to 4p.  The 4p perspective, imo, includes the capacity for the observer to rise above the mundane drama of the 3p “flatland” and observe the goings on “below” from the dramaturgical perspective of 4p.  Such a developed perspective requires the witness to include a sense of conventional time in their considerations of both the drama in their own lives as well as the drama unfolding around them.  To see such drama as it is actually happening from a temporarily uninvolved perspective requires oversight, or an elevated location from which to track back in time to cause and forward in time to vision through imaginary projection. 

The dilemma for this dramaturgical perspective of 4p is that it is limited by the conventional notion of time being a continuum stretching linearly back into the past and linearly forward into the future.  This struggle with limitation, however seductive and dominated by consensus, is the herald to 2nd tier consciousness.  3rd tier consciousness, imo, is marked by an acceptance that 4p is a transitional stage at that only by opening to an advanced notion of what time might really be will the witness be able to assume the 5p position of being free from the strictures of the consensus notion of time and, transcluding 4p, drop closer to the flatland 3p stage into the middle of the tetrahedron created by the three corners of the flatland triangel of 1p-2p-3p, and the dramaturgical perspective 4p point centrally located above the center of the 3p flatland.  5p, or the doorway to bliss and 3rd tier exists equidistant from the vertices of the tetrahedron and dead center in the middle.  Here, establishment of self-as-Self, indigo awareness, and ego resolution is actually possible.  From this perspective, the mystical experience may be joined.

So, what to do about the “holy crap/paranoia” factor?  Well, a couple of considerations come to mind: 

One, the actual precision of the event.  How precise is this horizontal plane through which we are purportedly travelling?  Reason indicates to me, considering the overwhelming scale of phenomenon in the galaxy, that this “plane” is hardly an infinitesimally thin something-or-other.  If that is the case, then we have been transitioning through or near it for some time already, and we are already experiencing the effects, whatever they might be of this transition.  My reading includes some conjecture based on sophisticated calculations beyond the Mayan's keen but limited observations, that we have already passed the middle of the plane and are on into the “future” despite the apparent savant-like accuracy of the Mayan calendar.  This possibility might account for the seeming disruptions in weather, plate tectonics, increased volcanism and etc, that seem so evident now. 

Two, many of us are rankled deeply by the seeming manipulation of history by those who have had the balls to interpret it for us.  Such interpretations and translations are rife with conscious editing of what actually happened into what those who love to control things by inculcating fear have lied to us about from god knows when.  I, for one, take no comfort in these explanations and recommendations, preferring to cleave to my own counsel as well as that of others around whom I deeply trust myself, and the revelations that rise from self-inquiry. 

Three,  the apparent acceleration of “out there” phenomenon including crop circles, ufo's, abductions and the like.  Backing up to the operating conclusion that there is likely advanced life with distance travel technology, well, then there is probably also a, um, er … “federation” of allied interests out there that are paying close attention to the “experiment” unfolding here on earth.  So, why the increased “attention” and visitation phenomenae?  Well, if I were them, and I had vested interests here on earth, I would be worried that the whole shebang was about to go up in radiological smoke.  Additionally, given the chemical soup we are foisting on ourselves, the chances that we might significantly fuck up our genetics wholesale is a growing possibility.  If I, as a concerned scientist or cultural anthropologist from the Pleiades on duty behind the moon,  had a stake in the proceedings,  I would be all for manifesting crop circles and fly-overs to raise awareness here among us monkeys that there was a bigger picture, and that we were being observed and concern among the observers was rising as we marched down the trail to this lie-infested vision of inevitable Armageddon, or so it seems to me.

When I say “it seems to me,” I am reporting from the sum total of my observations, experiences, intuitions, and  logical reductions.  I do not ask that you believe me, but only that you consider as selflessly as possible what it is that I am saying.  Please ignore the bombast, pontification, and exercised certainty as it is mostly shadow working to draw attention to itself so that it might be finally saved from its darkness and included in full awareness.

Yer pal,

Michael

Re: UFOs

Michael, there is such a keen self-awareness evident in your writing, to me it doesn't come across as pontificating and overly certain. In fact, I thoroughly enjoy the flamboyant richness you scatter like angel dust from so many different angles of this hologram we're admiring together, it inspires me to also say more (than maybe I should sometimes, hee).

Now I am very curious to hear if there are any practical consequences to holding such views as you and Will and Jayne (to an extent) have expressed here. IOW, how do you act in the world, given these perspectives? Do you navigate differently?

I appreciate these windows into your reality,

m

Re: UFOs

Dear Mascha,

Thanks for the reassurance.  I know that this is not the case, but sometimes I do feel as if I were operating in a vacuum of sorts in the world at large.  That feeling is far less prevalent here, in the company of bright sparks like yours for instance.  Its not that many others here and elsewhere have not reached the same state of affairs with similar operating conclusions, its that I do feel that much of the time we are quibbling about the details and not seeking to grok the overall state.  Though I seem bound to engage it, the God debate to me is silly.  None other than Hans Kung, the excommunicated Catholic theologian who supported liberation theology that sprang from Jeusit priests ministering to Amazonian natives in Brazil, wrote a book entitled “Does God Exist?”  In it, he concluded that it did not matter if God existed. (though, to my ear, he successfully proved the case for existence)  “Why” he asked, “would you lead your life any differently?”  “Does not our every real yearning point in the same direction - towards peace of mind and communion?”  Unlike Kung, however, I believe that it does make a difference and that difference is centered on the utility of the precious energy and attention that is our real gift to ourselves and the world.  As long as we are side-tracked in acrimony about the existence or not of something that cannot be described with words, this precious energy will continue to leak and spoil in fruitless debate.  Empiricism is a boon when applied to the strictures of the mundane and a curse when it seeks to rule discussions of spirituality.

Mascha, you asked, “Now I am very curious to hear if there are any practical consequences to holding such views as you and Will and Jayne (to an extent) have expressed here. IOW, how do you act in the world, given these perspectives? Do you navigate differently?”

Well, for me, as I am not sure about others generally, I have become less transient and my “navigation” as you say, has turned within.  I vigorously explored the micro/macro outside cosmos  for almost 60 years before I realized that what I sought, the Kosmos, could be found only inside.  I heard this countless times before I turned-to myself from all sorts of sources.  Still, until I came to experience the imminent collapse of self through a succession of nominally “incurable” diseases, I did not know truly what it felt like to be powerless over my life.  Big pattern-recognizing brain, high-end education, middle to upper-middle class benefits and strivings and nose-rubbing encounters with great beauty, the wild side, and abject horror did not do the job - my ongoing confrontation with death and an early exit from this life, has.  I came to realize that I had been “dying to live” while all the while missing the benefits of “living to die.”

Though my academic labels are sparse, I am yet plastered with a confabulation of others.  These labels are more than superficial as they represent incorporated perspectives - most of them not obtained through study alone, but much actual experience in the world.  My appreciation of vibration for instance, does not come so much from my here-and-there studies of acoustics and crystallography so much as twenty years maintaining my balance on blood-slimed decks at sea.  The subtleties of wind, tide, current, wave and the inexplicable wonder of water are deeply imbedded in me.  I did not come to my appreciation of drama by studying it alone, though I have done a bit of that, but more by practicing it from every single aspect that the theatre has to offer.  I did not come to my appreciation of materials science just by inventing some weird stuff and trying to make a living thereby, (which I have done for twenty more years) but by sitting down at the potter's wheel in-between fishing adventures and turning out well over 100,000 pots and other ceramic doo-dads from the most marvelous and versatile stuff this planet has to offer - clay.  I did not come to appreciate the critical importance of self-inquiry and the overwhelmingly beautiful emotional reality by studying psychology.  Rather, it came to me out of desperation when I realized, fully, that I was full of shit and did not have a clue as to who or what I was.  Talk about inauthentic!  Hah!  No wonder some people still see a bit of it in me.  Jaysus, what a fool I have been. 

So, the consequences of this state of being are numerous and today, finally, I can say with some willingness and conviction that I am preparing to accept them all.  I will continue to discriminate and measure my honesty with compassion for myself and others but I intend, fully, to let my little light shine as brightly as I know that the all the gods in heaven would have me.  I am here to seek and provide encouragement for myself and others while becoming utterly transparent to the dense objections of those who are threatened by my attention when it turns to matters about which they seem to be confused.  Forgive me for my trespasses as I forgive you for yours.

In the end, my message is that it is far simpler than it seems to be - excruciatingly difficult at times, but simple in the end:  everything that we seek lies within.

yer grateful pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

[teeny tiny correction dear Michael – Hans Kung has not been excommunicated; he remains a priest “in good standing” although the Vat has rescinded his authority to teach “officially Roman Catholic” theology–excuse my silly editorial spasm–now back to the more exciting speculation on UFOs, consequences, & etc ….]  :-)

Re: UFOs

Hey Michael, thankyou for sharing this lovely post with us. I really appreciate your interest and knowledge on these subjects. It seems too often to be pushed aside as taboo, leaving it desparately in need of an integral interpretation. Thanks for that!

Re: UFOs

I always wondered why ghosts always bother people with opening windows and moving toothbrushes and appearing as cold winds, and why aliens appear as flashes of light or dots or green hazes. And why people with the “telekinesis-ability” only bother to move very small things, and only when people aren't looking.

Come on. If you were a ghost you would have more fun that annoying people by moving their cellphones or opening their windows at night. Or if you came across an advanced civilization on another planet with your spaceship, you wouldn't kind of just… fly past really, really fast and then… DISAPPEAR! What's the point in being so damn mysterious? If I discovered living creatures I would head down there to try and speak with them right away! (And just in case keep a poisonous ampule or something with me in case their consciousness was RED and tried to attack or torture me to death for being an outsider.) Or if you could do telekineses you would do some way cooler and significant stuff than moving pens away from you on a table - and share your ability with both other people and the scientific community for study!

My point is that when people from other planets (which I'm sure have existed in the past, exist right now, or will come to exist in the future) come here to us for a visit, it won't be as a mysterous and blinding purple light, mkey?

Re: UFOs

Is, your posts are funny (if a tad, um, condescending).  I understand your points, and think a lot of silliness goes on in these areas of the “unexplained.”  Some of these so-called incidents are likely just cases of runaway imaginations – projections of fantasy on top of rationally (and conventionally) explicable events, at best.  But from what I've seen, they ALL can't be “reduced” in this way.  We can't say exactly what is happening in these different events, but I'm convinced that something significant is … something not explainable by appeals to magical thinking or superstition or hoaxes or whatever. 

Also, just to be clear:  Just because YOU wouldn't do something a certain way doesn't mean it can't happen that way.  Your argument in that regard is not rational … just a matter of preference.  Mmkay?

B.

Re: UFOs

I have seen a UFO.  It was in Raleigh NC in 2004.  I was doing a time-lapse shot of the Raleigh skyline from a hotel balcony with a cameraman for NBC Olympics.  It was 6:30 in the morning and I was looking North-easterly and saw a blackish dot eight fingers above the horizon moving in a sine wave at incredible speed.  It covered 70 degrees of my lateral field of vision in about four seconds before disappearing behind a cloud bank. It made about four complete crests and troughs of the wave.  And of course the cameraman didn't see it nor was the camera pointed in that direction…   Classic! 

Watch a jet at distance and estimate 70 degrees of your vision and see how long it takes for the jet at probably 3 to 400 miles an hour to cover that area.  It puts the object I saw at speeds well into the thousands per hour.  I have no idea what it was but the speed and movement were fascinating…utterly remarkable.

Michael your post in particular pique my interest.  You've mentioned many things from the McKenna's to your ideas on 2012 that awakened my own views on the subject.  My own musings on this are based on some things I've studied indicating that yes we will cross the “galactic plane” which is an inertia plane acting like a fulcrum to our lever movements above and below it - so to speak.

I agree with you.  This won't precipitate an “end of time” but rather I think an experience of “no time,” a suspension of time.  We will enter a duration (?) of inertia in plane - a stillness where events “seemingly” stretch to a stop and with no events there is no way to mark time.  This could and will be frightening to those unaccustomed to meditation, contemplation, stillness, beauty, or a lack of stimulus.  We will experience the still power of the galactic fulcrum in equilibrium - I think…  Some may experience nothing out of the ordinary as this will be an inner phenomenon based on conditioning - or so I think.

The Mayans don't detail chaos as the experience will be individually subjective.  There's no way to know how the collective will respond.  I'm sure a full spectrum of unbridled fear all the way to bliss will be experienced.  Some will recoil and some will unwind and open to new perspectives.  Then again this is the future we're talking about and it may just be another day and my thoughts may just be good old fashioned magical thinking…

…But back to it, I know that I saw something.  I don't know what it was, perhaps, a natural phenomenon I'm unaware of…        Beats me, it was cool, though.

Re: UFOs

Rod,

Thanks for the feedback esp. the piece about the fulcrum.  I had not heard it put quite that way before and can, ummmmm….. “drop” into it a bit and see how such a “pause” in “flight” very well might produce a “cessation of time” effect.

I think that this is one of those “red pill, blue pill” situations - freak out and fight or freak out and flee.  Screw the pills I say, just chop wood/carry water and be extra liberal with the affection in our lives.  Its like trying to prepare for a tidal wave that may come from any direction including up and down, outside-in. or inside-out.  This is not the first time that millenial fever has swept the land in the last 100 years or so.  This time seems a bit more genuinely pregnant though.  It sure seems capable of focusing our attention on just how small the earth is in relation to what's out there, and we just little micro-bugs scrabbling around this tiny dot so convinced that the entire thing is all about us.  The irony is that maybe it is all about us, or me, I mean.

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Hi Everyone

I've followed this thread with an increasing sigh of relief.

Bruce:  The only “classical” UFO sighting I've had took place when I was a boy.  I watched a greenish point of light move across the sky, and then make a sharp right angle turn and fly away at a very high speed.  I've had some other, archetypal dream-like experiences that mirror other aspects of this phenomenon. 

I didn't know that a greenish point of light was a classic UFO sighting. I had this experience alongside my Aunt when I was about 17. It was new years eve and we'd gone back to my house to pick up some albums. We saw a very green point of light hovering over the hill against which our houses were set, it then moved away quickly. we sort of rationalised it as a firework but there was no noise, no fading and it was in the time when fireworks were ONLY used on Bonfire Night here in the UK.

A second incident happened maybe 15 years ago. We were woken in the middle of the night by a huge noise that sounded as if there was a jet plane taxi-ing or whatever on our street. It was really strange because the sound was so loud, sort of all-surrounding almost a physical sensation but it didn't hurt my ears (which usually happens for me with loud sound because of various ENT issues from childhood). I went outside to find the cats, several neighbours were out in their nightwear. We were just surrounded by this noise but there was nothing to see. The noise continued for 10-15 minutes as if directly overhead and then faded. I rang the police but couldn't get through. I rang the local paper in the morning expecting some logical explanation. They said the police had had several calls about the noise but had no idea about the cause. I was then treated to an interview by the local 'hack' who was desperately trying to get me to use the acronym UFO, which of course I resisted - what would people think?!!!!! And there the story died but to this day I have absolutely no idea what the noise was. We have no heavy industry or airfield etc in the area.

Juliee

Re: UFOs

Great thread, Bruce & all.

Although this slightly departs from where this dialogue is at right now, I think many of you might be interested in this intelligently written article by Laura Knight Jadczyk who is a hypnotherapist and one from her husband, a physicist.

Ultra-terrestrials and 9-11

The article is complex and scientific in its approach,  will only quote the last paragraph, but it's worth reading the whole thing if you have a head for numbers etc.

We don't know - and cannot know at present - whether some super secret beam weapon was used to take down the Twin Towers on 9/11; but it is possible. And frankly, it is the one explanation that seems to cover all the anomalies. Bottom line is: Something is happening, there is a schedule, and the servants of the alien masters are pushing an agenda that few of us understand. They are trying to cement controls, to solidify their power base, because Something Wicked This Way Comes.

Re: UFOs

“We don't know - and cannot know at present - whether some super secret beam weapon was used to take down the Twin Towers on 9/11; but it is possible.”

We don't know , and cannot know at present, whether some enormous but invisible – and mutated – alien aircrafts and glowing crystals with massive firepower, created by an ancient civilization of raving duck-billed platypuses and evil sloths, lost for centuries but now finally uncovered by a super secret excavation team venturing into the darkest depths of the Amazon, who then launched it far, far into the furthest reaches of the galaxy where it exploded into a billion peices, and then by the powers of human thought alone merged together to form an organic superweapon too frightening to imagine and too horrifying to even conceptualize by an intelligent mind, which then with an enourmous blast set off straight towards Tellus, dodging planets and gods on its way, to finally burst through the atmosphere – in a hail of rainbows – and then finally, in a mighty climatic thrust, transfigured into a robotic George W Bush II holding an american flag in one hand and Mao Zedong in the other, crying: “MAY ALL BEINGS BE FREE FROM THE OCEAN OF SAMSARA” and then crashed into the World Trade Center on 9/11, in the EXACT same moment as a plane, type Boing, came from the other direction – but was of course only an optical illusion – which resulted in a worldspread wave of fear being injected into the populations of the world, leading inexorably, to eventually to a (secret) war on a global scale which benefits an ultra secret group of few very powerful men controlling everything, and especially YOU, and your family and your bank account … but it is possible.

This is all supported by modern quantum science of course. The evidence for this is simply astounding.

Re: UFOs

The quote I posted above was clearly designed to put people off reading the article. I re-read the article myself and still feel it is worth looking at if you are interested in the possibility of UFOs - not because of the conclusion above, but because of the data provided within the article. There is also an interesting interview with the author on BBC radio here.

Re: UFOs

There are a lot of unexplained things out there, but from an integral perspective we shouldn't try to explain the unexplained. An Orange (rational perspective) might try to explain away UFOs with mundane explanations, and they would probably be right some of the time. But all of the time? Who knows. No one really knows, so we should just stay open, not give in to the temptation to come to conclusions when there isn't evidence to support a conclusion. The truth of some of these things may be even more amazing than creatures from another planet. The universe is so amazingly big, it would make more sense to me that there is life on other planets rather than not, but as far as we really know–as far as there is really evidence for–human beings are the most developed. 

David

PS. My favorite UFO sighting.

Re: UFOs

Hey guys-

Saw this post on the front page, and just wanted to drop in my 2 cents.

I am very fascinated by this topic, and have seen three UFOs on seperate occations.  Twice in Philadelphia, and once at the Jersey Shore.  From what I have seen- I believe these aircraft to be man-made.  It is my personal belief that while kagillions of other planets and space time realities exist- we are not interacting with each other in the physical.  Is it possible to reach other worlds?  I think so- but I think we have to look at things like radio waves to get a better understanding of how that may be done.

Interesting stuff.

Re: UFOs

Dave said:
From what I have seen- I believe these aircraft to be man-made.  It is my personal belief that while kagillions of other planets and space time realities exist- we are not interacting with each other in the physical.

I think the main argument against all UFOs being man-made (aside from the physics-defying properties of many UFO craft) is that the phenomenon has been reported throughout history.  It isn't unique to the 20th and 21st centuries.  Three really good books on this point – as well as on the ability of UFO occupants to apparently bridge physical (gross) and nonphysical (subtle) realms – are Dimensions by Jacques Vallee, Supernatural by Graham Hancock, and the amazingly well written Angels and Aliens by Keith Thompson – who was, for a time, the president of Integral Institute.

The first person to really delve into humanity's ancient interactions with UFOs was Carl Jung in his 1958 book Flying Saucers.  But for one of the most easily accessible ancient sighting (and abduction) reports, check out the first chapter of Ezekiel in the Bible. :)

-Tom

Re: UFOs

serendipitously, i just posted a blog about this topic as well. allow me to share the link here:

http://coolmel.zaadz.com/blog/2007/11/ufos_the_truth_whatever_it_is_is_out_there

FYI, the UFO conference in Washington today was held at the National Press Club. it's not covered in the mainstream news for some reason. but i think it will be featured on Anderson Cooper 360 tonight at CNN. will check that out too :)

see: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/09/simington.ufocommentary/index.html

“Former Arizona Governor Fife Symington will be moderating a November 12 event at the National Press Club where he will discuss the Phoenix Lights incident. He says he will be joined by 14 former high-ranking military and government officials from seven countries who will share evidence from what they call their own UFO experiences and investigations.”

Re: UFOs

Thanks, C4, for posting a link to your blog.  I was just about to do so!  You've got some excellent links and clips there.

Best wishes,

B.

Re: UFOs

Edit: Just saw C4 posted the same info while I was assembling this one. Oh, what the heck. Here goes…

Balder, I'm very interested in reading more of those court transcripts you said you've kept in your OP. I've been researching UFO and related phenomena on and off since my first encounter with a cigar-shaped craft  in the '80s and have been hired as a consultant on media projects since then occasionally (good money btw. :-)
 

Here's what's happening today in terms of public disclosure:

PILOTS TO TELL THEIR UFO STORIES FOR FIRST TIME


UFO Close Encounters
The Reality as Seen by Former High Level Government and Military Officials


November 12th Group to call on US Government to Re-Open its Investigation

WHEN: Monday, November 12, 2007 11:00 AM

WHERE: National Press Club Ballroom Event open to credentialed media and Congressional staff only

The American public is not alone when it comes to sighting what the US Air Force has labeled Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). So too have former governors, high level military and government officials, highly trained airplane pilots and aviation experts. The phenomenon is real. It happens worldwide. No one is sure about its nature. Experts from seven countries will divulge what they have discovered about UFOs at a November 12 panel discussion moderated by former Arizona Governor Fife Symington (R) at the National Press Club.

Just one year ago, pilots, mechanics and managers from United Airlines witnessed a metallic disc-shaped object hovering over the United Airlines Terminal at Chicago's O'Hare Airport. The clearly observed object shot straight up leaving a hole through the clouds. Despite the clear aviation safety issues involved, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) never investigated the incident and dismissed it as weather. This head-in-the-clouds refusal to investigate stands in sharp contrast to efforts by governments of other countries to understand these incidents.

“I believe that our government should take an active role in investigating this very real phenomenon,” said Symington, who was a witness to the famed 'Phoenix Lights” incident seen by hundreds in Arizona while he was governor. “This panel consists of some of the most qualified people in the world with direct experience in dealing with this issue, and they will bring incredible, irrefutable evidence, some never presented before, that we simply cannot dismiss or ignore,” he said.

The group, using previously classified documents, will discuss many well-documented cases, including two investigated by the US government. The first involves a Peruvian Air Force pilot who fired many rounds at a UFO which was not affected. The second was an Iranian Air Force pilot's attempt to fire at a UFO, but whose control panel became inoperable. “This case is a classic that meets all the necessary conditions for a legitimate study of the UFO phenomenon,” stated the US Defense Intelligence Agency document on the Tehran incident. Both pilots will come forward to speak about these events publicly for the first time.

WHO: Fife Symington, Former Arizona Governor, Moderator
Ray Bowyer, Captain, Aurigny Air Services, Channel Islands
Rodrigo Bravo, Captain and Pilot for the Aviation Army of Chile
General Wilfried De Brouwer, former Deputy Chief of Staff, Belgian Air Force (Ret.)
John Callahan, Chief of Accidents and Investigations for the FAA, 1980's (Ret.) Dr. Anthony Choy, founder, 2001, OIFAA, Peruvian Air Force
Jean-Claude Duboc, Captain, Air France (Ret.)
Charles I. Halt, Col. USAF (Ret.), Former Director, Inspections Directorate, DOD I.G.
General Parviz Jafari, Iranian Air Force (Ret.)
Jim Penniston, TSgt USAF (Ret.)
Dr. Claude Poher, Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, founder, French GEPAN
Nick Pope, Ministry of Defence, UK, 1985-2006
Dr. Jean-Claude Ribes, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, France, 1963-98
Comandante Oscar Santa Maria, Peruvian Air Force (Ret.)

[……]

~~~~~

Michael, great letter, but (yes, there is a but…) I was hoping for insights into how extraterrestrial or interdimensional information impacts your everyday life and behavior. Same question for Will who has gone AWOL from this thread for some reason.

Lightly, open-mindedly,

your pal too :)

Re: UFOs

Mascha,

Pretty busy these days and a bit reluctant to get into my “et” influences as they are of the really “out there” variety - not sure whether some of them actually happened or are just products of my somewhat feverish imagination.

More later, if I get a sufficient dose of “what the hell …”

yer pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

I watched the movie: The Day the Earth Stood Still - on Sunday night.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0043456/

Pretty good recent yet historical projection of the multiple imaginaries we've associated with life beyond Earth. It's classic, and cracked me up!

Interesting to read all of your delvings. Even more interesting to hear how convinced some of you are that your souls originate from other planets. How can we know, thats the ultimate voyage isn't it? The subjective experiences of individuals are facinating. To me its as unfathomable as the Kosmic force itself. Despite two specific personal encounters of UFO's - one whilst in a friends garden, and once in a dream - in which, I was watching myself and then partner walk through a field into the distance, while a space-craft of some far out description, hovered over us, and pronounced - in a male voice!, 'You will have a daughter and her name is Fire'….
This made no sense to me, as I was 19 years old (of good mental disposition - i.e. no drugs! etc) at the time and never thought about either life elsewhere, or the possibility of having children. I did have a daughter not long after though, and her name is Autumn, the dancing colours of fire! (named after my favorite season).

I have no interest whatsoever in trying to understand any of this. It just is.

Love
Lisa

Re: UFOs

thanks again to Balder for starting this thread. i think it's more appropriate that i post a direct link from here to the 2001 UFO Disclosure Project Meeting video. very informative. a must-see for UFO enthusiasts as well as for skeptics.

here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk

i agree with the objectives. this issue, if proven to be true, is more significant than Global Warming or the tiresome and nauseating religion/science debate. why? because, if proven to be true, we could use the advance technology as an alternative to our current dependency on oil. and a confirmation that we are not alone in the universe would stretch our limited philosophies. in short, it would force humanity to grow up.

for more info, see The Disclosure Project. here's a list of their main objectives:

WE, THE PEOPLE, CALL ON THE U.S. CONGRESS:

• To hold open, secrecy-free hearings on the UFO / Extraterrestrial presence on and around Earth.
  
  
• To hold open hearings on advanced energy and propulsion systems related to the subject that, when publicly released, will provide solutions to global environmental and other challenges.
  
  
• To enact legislation which will ban all space-based weapons.
  
  
• To enact comprehensive legislation to research, develop and explore space peacefully and cooperatively with all cultures on Earth and in space.

Re: UFOs

P.S. i just watched Anderson Cooper 360. the program did cover the UFO Conference held to today at the National Press Club over at Washington D.C. Anderson Cooper interviewed James Fox (executive producer and director of the UFO documentary, Out of the Blue). of course, they have to have a skeptic on the show so they included James McGaha. but man, that skeptic didn't do a good job. he just basicaly dismissed the testimonies (and physical evidences) of credible individuals. he just played skeptic for skepticism's sake instead of having an interest to do more investigation. that's not the kind of skepticism that would take the conversation further. it's baaad skepticism!

anyway, i'll post a video of the UFO conference and the Anderson Cooper coverage as soon as they're available on Youtube.

in the meantime, check out this blog post for a video snippet of the UFO Conference held today at D.C.

http://realufos.blogspot.com/2007/11/latest-footage-from-biggest-ufo-event.html

and speaking of “Out of the Blue”, here's a link to the first part of the documentary.

http://videos.zaadz.com/284239/out_of_the_blue_pt_1_of_8

that is all for now.

~C

Re: UFOs

C4,

It's a shame, I spent an hour last night posting to this pod about The Disclosure Project only to log on today and see it vanished into the zero point energy field!  Anyhoo, lemme regurgitate points:

This summer, I discovered the Disclosure Project as well, and in my usual style dove right in, spending many a late night on the computer watching said youtube as well as many interviews with Dr. Steven Greer (founder of the Diclosure Project and CSETI movement). 

Dr. Greer seems to be operating from a second tier altitude, as well as a deep spiritual practitioner, which makes it very exciting to see how his work develops.  I recommend his latest book to everyone in this pod.

Also, here's some other great interviews, but do a video search of “Steven Greer” and a plethora will pop up.

Please comment / critique–I thrive on challenging discussion!

-B

Re: UFOs

thanks for the book recommendation. i've added it to my reading list. i'm new to Steven Greer so i'm still catching up. saw this video of him talking about consciousness, meditation, etc. which sound like New Agey stuff but for some reason he strikes me as very credible and truthful. i don't know. i'll check up on him some more. in the meantime here's a video of him talking about the Disclosure Project and its objective to raise the consciousness of everyone on the planet. he even talked about Dennis Kucinich in this video! check out the 1:09:12 mark.

UFO Disclosure Project - Dr. Steven Greer - Hidden Truth Forbidden Knowledge

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5970516724842544272

and btw, i also found this video:

Xcon 2004 - Steven Greer, M.D. - The Untold Story of the Disclosure Project

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1127596292178999687

Steven Greer's arguments are hair-raising. he's arguing from an alternative energy perspective. remember that this video was during a 2004 conference. Greer mentioned that we're lucky if the price of oil is $10 per barrel in 5 years. well, the price of oil per barrel as of this writing is a whopping $94.65 per barrel! [ed note: Casey had corrected me on this. Greer actually mentioned “You think gas is expensive now? Wait five or ten years. You'll be lucky if you can buy it for five or ten dollars a gallon.” (see 11:58 mark on this video)]

this issue is really more interesting than Global Warming. if Greer is correct, then acknowledging the implications of extraterrestrial technology could be our best chance of leapfrogging our current technology to save ourselves from the devastating effects of Climate Change (and wars, and peak-oil, and more).

~C

Re: UFOs

There is article today about UFOs today from Reuters. Here is an excerpt:

“The Air Force investigated 12,618 UFO reports from 1947 to 1969 in what was known as Project Blue Book. Investigators concluded that the incidents posed no threat and there was no evidence of space aliens or a super technology in operation.

'Since the termination of Project Blue Book, nothing has occurred that would support a resumption of UFO investigations,' the Air Force said on its Web site.”

Probably the most reasoned source we've seen so far here.

Some of the U.S. sightings, such as the one in Phoenix in 1997, might have been military experiments. They were doing things like learning how to project images onto clouds as a form of psychological warfare. It wouldn't surprise me if they set up experiments with space-ship-like aircraft to see what effect it would have on people if they saw it.

David

Re: UFOs

David, check out this pic of an airship that a friend of mine sent me this morning: http://www.kolchinsky.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/rossiya-4001-airship-2.jpg

I don't doubt that things like this have been used for Psych Warfare purposes (both foreign and domestic) for decades…

Re: UFOs

have you noticed how *watered down* the coverage of this event on U.S. mainstream media? as far as i know only CNN covered this in detail. they even aired the conference live on the CNN website. but the Anderson Cooper coverage i've seen is very luke warm. hopefully, someone would post that video on youtube so i could link to it.

speaking of *watered down*, check out this very *watered down* coverage from NYTimes via Reuters,
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-usa-ufos.html

and Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311177,00.html

compare this with this news coverage. it's short too but it has more details, like names and quotes from witnesses.

ABC News Australia: Ex-pilots, military officers call for new UFO probe
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/13/2089628.htm

but most coverage has no mention the names of the credible witnesses. for example, like Nick Pope, Ministry of Defence, UK, 1985-2006 and so on.

i'm no conspiracy theorist but i smell something fishy.

but anyway, for a list of all the witnesses check out this PRWEB release of the event:

——–

PRWeb: Pilots to Tell Their UFO Stories for the First Time
http://www.prweb.com/releases/Unidentified_Flying/object_UFO_event/prweb567548.htm

(PRWEB) November 7, 2007 – The American public is not alone when it comes to sighting what the US Air Force has labeled Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). So too have former governors, high level military and government officials, highly trained airplane pilots and aviation experts. The phenomenon is real. It happens worldwide. No one is sure about its nature. Experts from seven countries will divulge what they have discovered about UFOs at a November 12 panel discussion moderated by former Arizona Governor Fife Symington (R) at the National Press Club (www.freedomofinfo.org).

Just one year ago, pilots, mechanics and managers from United Airlines witnessed a metallic disc-shaped object hovering over the United Airlines Terminal at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport. The clearly observed object shot straight up leaving a hole through the clouds. Despite the clear aviation safety issues involved, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) never investigated the incident and dismissed it as weather. This head-in-the-clouds refusal to investigate stands in sharp contrast to efforts by governments of other countries to understand these incidents.

“I believe that our government should take an active role in investigating this very real phenomenon,” said Symington, who was a witness to the famed ‘Phoenix Lights” incident seen by hundreds in Arizona while he was governor. “This panel consists of some of the most qualified people in the world with direct experience in dealing with this issue, and they will bring incredible, irrefutable evidence, some never presented before, that we simply cannot dismiss or ignore,” he said.

The group, using previously classified documents, will discuss many well-documented cases, including two investigated by the US government. The first involves a Peruvian Air Force pilot who fired many rounds at a UFO which was not affected. The second was an Iranian Air Force pilot’s attempt to fire at a UFO, but whose control panel became inoperable. “This case is a classic that meets all the necessary conditions for a legitimate study of the UFO phenomenon,” stated the US Defense Intelligence Agency document on the Tehran incident. Both pilots will come forward to speak about these events publicly for the first time.

Who:    

• Fife Symington, Former Arizona Governor, Moderator
• Ray Bowyer, Captain, Aurigny Air Services, Channel Islands
• Rodrigo Bravo, Captain and Pilot for the Aviation Army of Chile
• General Wilfried De Brouwer, former Deputy Chief of Staff, Belgian Air Force (Ret.)
• John Callahan, Chief of Accidents and Investigations for the FAA, 1980’s (Ret.)        
• Dr. Anthony Choy, founder, 2001, OIFAA, Peruvian Air Force        
• Jean-Claude Duboc, Captain, Air France (Ret.)
• Charles I. Halt, Col. USAF (Ret.), Former Director, Inspections Directorate, DOD I.G.
• General Parviz Jafari, Iranian Air Force (Ret.)
• Jim Penniston, TSgt USAF (Ret.)
• Dr. Claude Poher, Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales, founder, French GEPAN
• Nick Pope, Ministry of Defence, UK, 1985-2006
• Dr. Jean-Claude Ribes, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, France, 1963-98
• Comandante Oscar Santa Maria, Peruvian Air Force (Ret.)

When:    
Monday, November 12, 2007
11:00 AM

Where:   
National Press Club
Ballroom
Event open to credentialed media and Congressional staff only

Re: UFOs

Hi Balder, C4, Et Al.,

Awesome thread! :)  I've been toying with the idea of an “integral ufology” since around 1997, when I was still dreaming of becoming a professional ufologist, filing FOIA requests with the NSA (you can now get all the same whited-out documents they sent me online), doing my high-school senior social studies project on “50 Years of the Government's UFO Coverup in America,” etc.  And then I stumbled upon the works of Ken Wilber.

The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.  He recently came out of “hiding,” so to speak, with an appearance on Coast to Coast AM in September and by giving the keynote talk at a conference in Las Vegas in October about his involvement in US military remote-viewing research.  I blogged about him here, along with a little explanation of why I think he's an integral thinker.  I'd be interested to see what you all think of it.

I wrote up some of my Integral Ufology ideas a couple of years ago, which I'll post here.  I've never shared these with anyone before, so see if my idea makes sense–and if not, I can try to clarify…

Outline of an Integral Ufology

8/26/05

Start by laying out all the various facets of the phenomenon (and related phenomena):

1. Sightings (1947-present, WWII foo fighters, 1897 airships, and all prior-to-1947 sightings in general)—includes: CE-I (object), CE-II (object and being/s), and CE-III (communication by, or interaction with, being/s).
2. Abductions (CE-IV and CE-V), historical and modern (reasons for? genetics, hybrids, reincarnation connections apparent in Mack’s and Strieber’s work, DMT: The Spirit Molecule, etc.)
3. Government coverup/conspiracy (Roswell, MJ-12, Area 51, reverse-engineering, alien bodies, Blue Book, CIA psych warfare, etc.)
4. UFOs throughout history: “Angels and Aliens” (demons, elves, nephilim, piskeys, gnomes, fairies, etc.; Vedanta correlations; von Daniken; and Jacques Vallee’s work in general—interdimensional aliens; varying perceptions of same phenomenon through the lens of different stages of consciousness)
5. Mythological and psychic dimensions (Carl Jung’s “Flying Saucers,” von Daniken, Sitchin, Vallee’s “control system” theory, Strieber’s experiences and speculations; social dimensions: UFO cults, Roswell craze, Lady of Fatima sighting, Phoenix Lights, etc.)
   
6. Crop Circles and Cattle Mutilations (Linda Moulton Howe, et al.; phenomena historically… “piskey rings,” etc.)
7. Ancient Astronauts—Mars/Moon/Atlantis connections (theories of underground bases, underwater bases, hollow Earth, von Daniken, Hoagland, Hancock, Sitchin, NASA, remote-viewing, etc.)
8. Cryptozoology connections (Bigfoot, Loch Ness, Mothman, Jersey Devil, Cornish Owlman, etc., especially as related to Vallee’s interdimensional theory)
9. Related paranormal/subtle phenomena (teleportation, psychokinesis, telepathy, ghosts, angels, OBEs, mysterious lights [i.e., Lubbock Lights], demonology and sleep paralysis; plus dreams of aliens, aliens seen with the deceased, reincarnation and abductions, etc., etc.)
   
10. Varying Theories & Skepticism (and social dimensions of both—why do people today champion the ETH? why do people vociferously deny it? why do Vallee’s theories slip under the radar? why does Wilber, or academics in general, not give any more mention to UFOs than passing jabs at the obvious—and inherently unavoidable—narcissism of baby-boomer abductees?)

Re: UFOs

Soulplex,

very interesting. thanks for the link. will check it out.

personally, i find Dr. Steven M. Greer very credible, although i'm still holding reservations until i find out more about the guy. what's more fascinating about him is that he's able to organize and convince people with impeccable credentials to testify to congress about their UFOs and extraterrestrials. see The Disclosure Project. i mean, it's not that easy to dismiss Greer as some UFO crackpot with a conspiracy theory.

i'm collecting videos of him for those who are interested to know more about the guy. check out this link: http://videos.zaadz.com/tagged/Steven+greer

anyway, speaking of integral ufology, how about WIE magazine doing a cover story on UFOs? you guys can interview Steven Greer and find out more about the Disclosure Project? i'd buy that issue in a heartbeat :)

~C

Re: UFOs

Hi, C4, thanks for the links to the videos of Dr. Greer.  I look forward to checking them out.  I used to hear him on the radio from time to time in Virginia and was also impressed with him.  He seemed like a bright, clear, credible person, not a crackpot.  And his ideas on alternative energy sources – and the reasons they might be discouraged internationally – are very interesting and not a little disturbing.

I have not met Dr. Greer yet, but I spoke to him on the phone when I was transcribing interviews for the Disclosure Project.  I did meet his wife, who brought the tapes by to me.  Interestingly, when she gave them to me, she warned me to be careful.  She said the last person working on them got threatened by someone and gave up working on them.  I'm not sure what to make of that.  Nothing unusual happened to me.

(Knock on wood!)



P.S.  Excellent idea about the WIE issue!

Re: UFOs

:) Believe me, I've been thinking about writing a grand Pulitzer-worthy UFO article since I joined the staff of WIE.  It's occasionally joked about, and I'm sure it will happen, one way or another…someday.  Maybe in 2012. ;)

I do occasionally manage to work in a mention of ETs or UFOs in some of my shorter pieces, but the longest thing I've written in WIE on the topic so far is a review of the “Phoenix Lights” documentary by Lynne Kitei.  It's the second review on the page here.

I think Steven Greer's credible enough, but like most ufologists, he isn't very integral.  He tends toward the nuts-n-bolts ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis) of UFO origins, which I find to be far too simplistic an explanation as it's usually stated.  Yes, we may be dealing with beings from other planets in our universe, but if so, we also have to take into account the fact that they seem to have a remarkable capacity to phase in and out of gross-physical manifestation at will, walk through walls, defy the laws of physics, and show up in people's dreams, OBEs, and DMT trips… Here's just one of the countless really weird cases that doesn't necessarily jive with the commonsense idea that we're dealing with little orange/rational scientists from outer space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly-Hopkinsville_encounter .

-Tom

Re: UFOs

”:) Believe me, I've been thinking about writing a grand Pulitzer-worthy UFO article since I joined the staff of WIE.  It's occasionally joked about, and I'm sure it will happen, one way or another…someday.  Maybe in 2012. ;)”

Tom,

LOL. well, good luck on the Pulitzer!

seriously, how about covering The Disclosure Project on WIE. there are actual people with high ranks referenced in the briefing documents. and according to The Disclosure Project, the Executive Summary had been distributed to all members of Congress in 2001. it's only $5 to get access to materials and you'd have a list of *credible* high-ranking people to interview on the WIE issue. no need to put an integral spin to it. you can just go by with hardcore journalism 101.

i'll be disappointed with Andrew if he laughs at you. WIE is not suppressed by shadow groups, is it? ;)

c'mon, if Larry King can cover UFOs then what does WIE got to lose? i think you should jump on this bandwagon while it's hot! i'll be looking forward to that WIE UFO Pulitzer Prize winning issue ;)

~C

P.S. in your review of the Phoenix Lights Documentary, you wrote: “Are we now moving towards our next evolutionary level, the positive maturation and spiritual advancement of consciousness itself?”

Steven Greer says, yes, in this video :)

and here is Former Arizona Governer Fife Symington *admitting* and describing his experience of the Phoenix Lights :)

Re: UFOs

Thanks for your support and encouragement, C4!  Andrew did find the Larry King special the other night fairly persuasive, so…we'll see. :)

I personally am not all that interested these days in Greer's coverup testimonials, because I find the US government's involvement with the phenomenon far less interesting than the phenomenon itself.  I've been convinced of its reality since the mid-90s (seeing a UFO myself while doing an early-morning paper route when I was 15 helped), and once you're convinced it exists, the natural question becomes: Well, what the hell is it? 

I think the whole government angle is seriously murky territory, because it's been well documented that certain elements of the US intelligence community have f-ed with ufologists' heads for their own bizarre purposes.  It becomes hard to tell what's real and what's disinformation.  I have no doubt that many of those military and government employees who are part of the Disclosure Project are telling the truth.  Many of them seem perfectly sane and sincere.  But what “truth” are they telling us?  I think certain elements of the US government have been taking great pains, for decades, to make people believe that they know more about UFOs than they actually do, for two reasons: (1) to present the illusion that “everything's under control,” and (2) to give them an eventual justification, and public support, for the militarization of outer space. 

But the UFO phenomenon itself–stretching back into ancient human history, and probably even pre-history–is a far more fascinating and multidimensional mystery than the Military-Industrial version of the story.  Read some of the contact reports here for a taste of it, or the vast chronology of reports here.  UFOs are strange, and they seem to have always been with us…

Have a look at these images:
Madonna and Child and…UFO.
Flying Saucer on a 17th-Century French Coin.

And here's a nice, thorough collection of BC and AD images, including cave paintings and medieval art: http://www.ufoartwork.com/

As Deep Throat said in season one of the X-Files, “Mr. Mulder, they've been here for a long, long time.” :)

So when I do write a piece on the UFO aliens, it will have to be with more of a focus as to what they are, where they come from, and what they're doing–and less about what the government knows, or pretends to know, about them.  I think they might be interdimensional beings, not that far removed from other cryptozoological creatures (like Bigfoot), who also somehow operate with full lucidity in both gross and subtle realms (and bodies).  I think Jacques Vallee's “Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Origin of UFOs” is worth quoting:

“Scientific opinion has generally followed public opinion in the belief that unidentified flying objects either do not exist (the 'natural phenomena hypothesis') or, if they do, must represent evidence of a visitation by some advanced race of space travellers (the extraterrestrial hypothesis or 'ETH'). It is the view of the author that research on UFOs need not be restricted to these two alternatives. On the contrary, the accumulated data base exhibits several patterns tending to indicate that UFOs are real, represent a previously unrecognized phenomenon, and that the facts do not support the common concept of 'space visitors.' Five specific arguments articulated here contradict the ETH:

1. unexplained close encounters are far more numerous than required for any physical survey of the earth;
2. the humanoid body structure of the alleged “aliens” is not likely to have originated on another planet and is not biologically adapted to space travel;
3. the reported behavior in thousands of abduction reports contradicts the hypothesis of genetic or scientific experimentation on humans by an advanced race;
4. the extension of the phenomenon throughout recorded human history demonstrates that UFOs are not a contemporary phenomenon; and
5. the apparent ability of UFOs to manipulate space and time suggests radically different and richer alternatives.”

Re: UFOs

Tom,

good luck in getting that exclusive :)

you said: “So when I do write a piece on the UFO aliens, it will have to be with more of a focus as to what they are, where they come from, and what they're doing–and less about what the government knows, or pretends to know, about them.”

personally, i'm not that interested with that angle. we can dissect the origins of UFOs and aliens ad infinitum but it would all be speculation and there will be no practical outcomes of that effort, IMHO.

i care more about the practical implications of the technology and possible alternative energy that could alleviate poverty, suffering, environmental problems and other social issues. if Steven Greer is correct, then it's our moral obligation to get the word out about these technologies that have been withheld from humanity. i agree with him on that reasoning.

here's a video of Dr. Steven Greer's presentation about Advanced Energy Research Organization (AERO) on August 20th in Bethesda, Maryland.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-441768200946303094
(note: pay special attention to the Q&A portion near the end of the video. very juicy :))

and here's a link to AERO's Award Program:
http://www.aero2012.com/en/award.html

——-

AERO Award Program

November 1, 2007

Advanced Energy Research Organization, LLC (AERO) is offering an up-front $200,000 licensing award and minimum $5 million two year royalty program for a qualifying new energy breakthrough.

The Charlottesville, VA energy research company is leading a world-wide search for promising, out-of-the-box inventors and scientists who have provable energy generation inventions that need support, further development and widespread public exposure.

AERO CEO Steven M. Greer MD notes that, “Over the past 100 years, many major energy breakthroughs have withered on the vine, died with the inventor or been absorbed into secretive corporate or government programs. It is AERO's mission to see that these new technologies are protected, supported and massively disclosed to the public so that we can go beyond our current addiction to oil, gas and coal and begin a new, sustainable era in human history.

AERO is uniquely qualified to see that such technological innovations make it to market. Our network includes 'A-list' celebrities, Nobel Prize winners, current and former heads of State and millions of people who follow our work. The inventor or team that has a qualifying system for energy generation will have the full force, support and protection of this unique, global network.”

Re: UFOs

C4 said:
personally, i'm not that interested with that angle. we can dissect the origins of UFOs and aliens ad infinitum but it would all be speculation and there will be no practical outcomes of that effort, IMHO.

i care more about the practical implications of the technology and possible alternative energy that could alleviate poverty, suffering, environmental problems and other social issues. if Steven Greer is correct, then it's our moral obligation to get the word out about these technologies that have been withheld from humanity. i agree with him on that reasoning.

But I don't think the two are necessarily opposed.  If we better understand what UFOs are, then we'll better understand how they operate.  Greer seems committed to the idea that we're dealing with little green men from outer space who visit us in spaceships and have, in fact, crashed here in those spaceships.  Much of his evidence for this comes in the form of “eyewitness” testimony from military personnel, government contractors, etc.  But given how much the US government has actively engaged in disinformation programs to deceive the public–and their own employees–about this subject, I find such testimony highly suspect.  NOT because of any lack of integrity on the part of the eyewitnesses, but because of the demonstrable lack of integrity on the part of the government.  If you can't trust the context, then it makes it harder to trust those who were embedded in that context. 

The best book on the subject of the US government's UFO conspiracy is ”UFOs and the National Security State” by Richard Dolan.  The best book on the supposed “Roswell crash” is ”Body Snatchers in the Desert” by Nick Redfern, who makes a persuasive case as to why the government is actually happy having people believe that what happened at Roswell in July 1947 was nothing but the crash of an alien spaceship.

Now, I don't doubt that the government has developed advanced propulsion technologies based on observed characteristics of UFOs.  And they may have even recovered material from crashed UFOs.  Maybe.  So more power to Greer for demanding that the military share this knowledge with the world rather than hounding their power while the oil runs dry. 

But still, given all I've learned about UFOs and their occupants, I sometimes suspect that even 500 years from now we might not have a clue what they really are.  Three hundred years ago, we were still seeing them as “fairies.”  In the 20th century modernist Space Age, we saw them as little scientific explorers from space.  Who knows how we'll interpret the mystery a hundred years from now… But I think only an integral consciousness is capable of effectively approaching the problem, which is why the great Jacques Vallee probably has the single best perspective on the subject.  Here are some links to many of his interviews and articles.  (”Heretic Among Heretics” is his best interview.)

Tom

Re: UFOs

again, thanks for the links Tom. i'll add the book to my Weird Stuff category :)

you said: “Greer seems committed to the idea that we're dealing with little green men from outer space who visit us in spaceships and have, in fact, crashed here in those spaceships.  Much of his evidence for this comes in the form of “eyewitness” testimony from military personnel, government contractors, etc.”

from what i've seen and learnd by watching Greer's lectures, i don't think that that is Greer's position. he's perspective is much more complex than that. he even makes distinctions between UFOs and ARVs (Alien Reproduction Vehicles). he also says that there is a grand conspiracy for disinformation and misinformation.

see Exopolitics or Xenopolitics?

and i quote: “Today, we see racist appellations applied to certain alleged ET groups – The Grays! The Reptilians! The Tall White Ones! Must we go down this tired, dirty path again? Must we replay the sordid history of human racism, prejudice, and xenophobia as we begin our first steps towards the stars?”

and Greer goes way out there when he starts talking about meditation, ETs, and consciousness. check out his videos and see if you can re-evaluate his position based on his claims.

i'm collecting the videos here :)
http://videos.zaadz.com/tagged/steven+greer

~C

Re: UFOs

Soulplex: The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.  He recently came out of “hiding,” so to speak, with an appearance on Coast to Coast AM in September and by giving the keynote talk at a conference in Las Vegas in October about his involvement in US military remote-viewing research.  I blogged about him here, along with a little explanation of why I think he's an integral thinker.  I'd be interested to see what you all think of it.

~~~

Hey Tom

The UFO thang doesn't hold my interest much anymore - for one thing, the “signal to noise” ratio in just about any UFO discussion is severely…suboptimal.  But I popped in to see if anybody has mentioned Jaques Vallee, who was the only author on the phenomenon who held my interest for long back in the day when I was a little obsessed with such things.  Your blog entry on him is excellent, thanks for linking to that. 

From the wikipedia entry on Jacques Vallee:

~~~

Vallee's interpretation of the UFO evidence

Vallée proposes that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon, partly associated with a form of non-human consciousness that manipulates space and time. The phenomenon has been active throughout human history, and seems to masquerade in various forms to different cultures. In his opinion, the intelligence behind the phenomenon attempts social manipulation by using deception on the humans with whom they interact.

Vallée also proposes that a secondary aspect of the UFO phenomenon involves human manipulation by humans. Witnesses of UFO phenomena undergo a manipulative and staged spectacle, meant to alter their belief system, and eventually, influence human society by suggesting alien intervention from outer space. The ultimate motivation for this deception is probably a projected major change of human society, the breaking down of old belief systems and the implementation of new ones. Vallée cannot say who or what is behind this scheme, only that the evidence, if carefully analysed, suggests an underlying plan for the deception of mankind by means of psychotronic technology. It is highly unlikely that governments actually conceal alien evidence, as the popular myth suggests. Rather, it is much more likely that that is exactly what the manipulators want us to believe. Vallée feels the entire subject of UFO's is mystified by charlatans and science fiction. He advocates a stronger and more serious involvement of science in the UFO research and debate. Only this can reveal the true nature of the UFO phenomenon.

Vallée's view of UFO investigative efforts

Vallée is often highly critical of UFO investigators overall, both believers and sceptics, asserting that what often passes for an acceptable level of investigation in a UFO context would be considered sloppy and seriously inadequate investigation in other fields. He has written pointing out logical flaws and methodological flaws common in such research. Unlike many critics of UFO investigative efforts, his critiques are not condescending and dismissive and he indicates that he is simply interested in good science.

Concerns regarding the UFO subculture

Vallée's Messengers of Deception is recognised as an important sociological work in its own right, since the subject of this 1975 study is UFO contactees and cults as opposed to the UFO phenomenon itself. In the course of the study Vallée expresses concern about the often authoritarian political and religious views expressed by many contactees. Amongst the groups profiled are the nascent Raelian movement and an early form of the Heaven's Gate suicide cult, against which Vallee prophetically warned potential converts, “you only risk your life!”

~~~

Re: UFOs

Soulplex: The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.  He recently came out of “hiding,” so to speak, with an appearance on Coast to Coast AM in September and by giving the keynote talk at a conference in Las Vegas in October about his involvement in US military remote-viewing research.  I blogged about him here, along with a little explanation of why I think he's an integral thinker.  I'd be interested to see what you all think of it.

~~~

Hi Tom and all

For easy reference, here are links to all the parts of the Coast to Coast show you mention, which is posted on Youtube in twelve parts. 

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part One

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Two

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Three

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Four

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Five

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Six

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Seven
Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Eight

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Nine

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Ten

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Eleven

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Twelve

~~~

Re: UFOs

Soulplex: The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.

~

Jacques Vallée interviewed by Daily Grail

TDG: When we look at ufology in the 1960s, versus today, I'm not sure a lot of progress has been made (perhaps even the opposite). Is ufology a sisyphean endeavour, unworthy of our prolonged attention? You've personally devoted almost 50 years of research and writing to exploring the phenomenon - can you give a simple opinion to the question: what is behind the UFO phenomenon?

Jacques Vallée: You’re asking me two different questions here. I have convinced myself that there was a real UFO phenomenon once the errors, hoaxes and occasional manipulations were screened out. We do know a great deal more today than we did just 10 years ago, thanks to dedicated researchers who have invested their time and resources to documenting the data. That is not as good as a serious scientific research effort, but one should never underestimate what can be achieved by motivated amateurs. This being said, it would be unrealistic to expect quick solutions, in this field as in any other scientific endeavor.

I have also been interested in the nature of consciousness, and that field has not gotten closer to a solution in fifty years either. Similarly, look at some of the lingering enigmas in archaeology, or in medicine: all we can do is document our data and hope someone will make sense of it at a later time.

Re: UFOs

Here's a good CNN clip on yesterday's press conference in D.C.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrDblT-j70M

Re: UFOs

cool! thanks i've been digging for that :)

Re: UFOs

Hey, Tom, great to see you here! I love the Integral Ufology. That's exactly what we need.

One thing I'd like to know is if we can, by a person's description, discern whether they saw a gross-realm phenomonon (like the picture you linked, which I love) or a subtle-realm phenomenon. An integral theory of what sort of cultural overlays or interpretations people would put on their experiences would also help a lot. The credibility of witnesses would also have to be determined in an integral way for each sighting.

Thanks for the link on Steven Greer, C4. It was interesting looking at the Wikipedia article about him. Here is an excerpt:

“Back in the early 1960s, when I was eight or nine. Some neighborhood boys and I saw a disc-shaped, windowless object that hovered, silent, then simply vanished. My parents said, “That's very nice” and ignored it, but I knew what I'd seen, and it was life-changing.”

How would we know he didn't just see some government experiment? It brings in to question the ethics of testing these things out on the general population–maybe the guy's whole life was determined by military experiment! Of course it may also have been the experiment of some 16 year old down the street (and, of course, it could have been the real ET as well, but we would have to be skeptical about the reports of an eight or nine year old).

Then when he was 37 he had this experience:

“This thing came within a few hundred feet of us and only 10 feet above the ground. It signaled to us for about 10 or 15 minutes. It was an extraordinary event.”

“In March of 1997, during an event near Atlimeyaya, Mexico, Greer and his CSETI team encountered two soldiers who were carrying AK-47 rifles and who had no insignia on their uniforms. ^[22][23] Believing they were in danger, Greer and the team prayed for protection from the ”Divine Being”, which kindly influenced the two soldiers for both soldiers dropped their rifles, walked to a van, picked up guitars and starting playing them, allowing Greer and the team the chance to escape. ^[22][23]”

Re: UFOs

:D  yes, magenta indeed!  I said that with a smile on my face, knowing the context in which I was invoking a superstition.

I think it's possible that some of the things that are witnessed might be test runs or experiments with high level, secret US technology.  That's a reasonable assumption – easier to believe, in general, than the idea that we are being visited by aliens.  However, some of the incidents do appear to involve elements that are likely beyond our own ability to replicate.  Also, these events happen around the world, and to imagine that all of them are attributable to secret US experiments stretches credibility – particularly since we have testimony of such experiences that go back for six decades (or beyond, if you consider some references in traditional myths and teachings).

In a previous post, I started touching on what an Integral approach to this subject would be, so I appreciate what Soulplex is doing.  I agree that there is a place with this phenomenon where the line appears to be blurred between gross and subtle state experience, and some folks (such as Strieber) suggest that the individuals we are dealing with actually can operate with equal facility in both perspective dimensions – appearing subtly to folks, psychically or energetically, as well as physically.

Some of this stuff is way out there, and I am uneasy getting “behind” it.  But I've had some unsual experiences that have piqued my curiosity.  Earlier, I mentioned having several visionary experiences while camping out in Arizona.  Some of the elements of one of these intense experiences matched very closely a similar encounter and “testing” Strieber described in one of his Communion books, which I read a good while after having the experience.  It impressed me so much that I wrote to Strieber to talk to him about it.  I made it clear that the experience, while very intense and vivid and involving elements that were quite different from my normal dreams, nevertheless appeared to have been something that happened entirely in the subtle dream state.  In the experience, I had no sense I was dealing with “aliens” – just with powerful spiritual beings who were putting me through some exercises.  So I was surprised at the overlap of the experience with Strieber's alien encounters.  Strieber wrote me back, but he only made a short comment:  “Don't ignore what happens in your dream states.  There's more to them than you know.”

There are a number of ways to look at this, obviously.  And I recognize that there is an intriguing universality to archetypal images which, while telling and significant in their own right, may nevertheless be entirely a human psychological phenomenon.  But there is also the possibility that sufficient development allows beings (individuals) to navigate in the subtle as well as the physical (spiritual literature worldwide attests to this), and so it would make sense (from an Integral perspective) that beings from a sufficiently advanced culture may be able to “move” in ways we can't imagine, connected to state realization as well as gross physical/cognitive/technical development.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: UFOs

Cool, Balder!  Your Arizona experience(s) remind me of one of the sightings of my biological father, Don Dixon, which he blogged about here.  You might want to check out ”Supernatural” by Graham Hancock.  It's a very good overview of the striking parallels between UFO phenomena and visionary/shamanic experiences, paying particular attention to the work of Rick Strassman (my review of his book is there on Amazon) and Jacques Vallee.

In “Supernatural,” Hancock writes:

“…Jung described the sightings as a new form of global rumor that 'differs from an ordinary rumor in that it is expressed in the form of visions.'  His inclination was to treat UFOs as 'a 99 per cent psychic product,' yet he admitted he was baffled by their 'apparently physical nature,' which, he lamented, created 'insoluble puzzles for even the best brains':

    'The only thing we can say with tolerable certainty about UFOs is that they possess a surface which can be seen by the eye and at the same time throws back a radar echo.' ”

See – even the great Carl Jung couldn't figure it out. :) 

You said: it would make sense (from an Integral perspective) that beings from a sufficiently advanced culture may be able to “move” in ways we can't imagine, connected to state realization as well as gross physical/cognitive/technical development.

I agree.  And if you read Ken's ”Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies,” he talks about the ancient idea that gross-matter crystalizes out of the subtle pranic field, which he correlates with the modern physics idea of a “zero-point” field.  So if you have beings who are capable of maneuvering fully consciously in their subtle bodies, they may also be capable of popping in and out of the gross-realm at will, and creating/condensing gross bodies (and “ships”) out of subtle energies as well… This line of reasoning goes a long way toward a way of explaining pretty much everything “inexplicable” about the phenomenon, including why the aliens seem so interested in souls, reincarnation, reproduction, and the like (as detailed at length by Strieber in his books and online writings, as well as by the late Harvard psychiatrist John Mack in his books ”Abduction” and ”Passport to the Cosmos”). 

In “Communion,” Whitley Strieber suggested that the aliens may represent ”what the force of evolution looks like when applied to a conscious mind.”  And I think there's probably a lot of truth to that, any way you interpret it… If they're projections of our own subconscious, then the phenomenon could signal that we're waking up more and more to a conscious identification with ourselves as Eros, the evolutionary impulse.  And if they're really existing, independent beings of some sort, then they appear to be Kosmocentric – identified with Eros themselves – and interested in pushing forward evolution wherever they can, including among us lowly human beings… (And the truth may lie somewhere in between, which is why I've always liked Strieber's quote so much.)

Whitley also wrote this on his blog at UnknownCountry.com a few months ago:

“I got the impression that they take a long view of history. They are interested in the state of mankind not only this year or in a hundred years, but in a million years and a billion years. The evolution of intelligence is important to them, and they are here to help it through a difficult time on earth, so that it can, in time, reach a state where it offers some sort of value to others.

“I am pretty sure that intelligent life is extremely rare, and that there is a sort of choir of consciousness, and that there is a desire that our voices be joined to it, in the interest of the new.”

The truth is out there …

Re: UFOs

Here's a nice little overview of some of the sighting reports from the 19th century and stretching back into antiquity: http://www.rense.com/ufo4/historyofufo.htm

Re: UFOs

FYI. as promised. here are links to the Youtube videos on the CNN coverage of the UFO Conference at the National Press Club.

CNN UFO Story 11-12-2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrDblT-j70M

CNN about UFO debate at the National Press Club, Nov.12th, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGO7Iser4g

UFO Close Encounters - Anderson Cooper CNN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FPH9FtIJkE

and i also posted a follow up blog covering this UFO Conference.

UFO Disclosures, Conspiracies, and Consciousness

enjoy!

~C

Re: UFOs

You know how you can tell a thread is really ludicrous? When people who never otherwise post are really interested. I'm not saying these people shouldn't contribute. I'm asking,”Why don't they?”

I'll tell you. Because they don't like having to logically defend magical thinking. Aliens destroying the twin towers?

Holy shit.

I said nothing at first because I thought others would surely publicly criticize such a ludicrous statement. Several of you have really great minds and have said nothing about all the preposterous ideas on this thread. What you're practicing here is blind compassion, folks. Sorry to kill the party, but there is no way I'm going to pretend I agree by not saying anything. Pull your agency out of your pants and use it, for crissakes.

Liz

Re: UFOs

Appreciate your candor. I think this just goes to show how deeply serious this issue is in terms of cultural pathology. Make no mistake about it. Regardless of truth or falsity, authenticity or incredibility, and regardless of any -not unnoted incidentally -genuine reasonable and rational inquiry into the subject: when the door has been opened, something truly Boomeritis this way comes.

I do have a question though.

Are we really still all bent out of shape by freaking crop circles?

Re: UFOs

Yes, Liz and Tim, I agree:  this topic is one of several that attracts all sorts of wild, ungrounded, speculative, even magical types of thinking.  Conspiracy theories.  Apocalyptic visions.  Fanciful revisions of history.  Etc.  I've done my time sparring with proponents of hairbrained New Age ideas when I lived in Arizona.  I could run into a walk-in any day of the week there in Sedona.  Heard all sorts of crazy stuff. 

Critical thinking is welcome on this thread.  If you want to pounce on any claim and demonstrate how fallacious it is, please feel free.  I just haven't had the spirit to go hunting for loons.  (Not that I think anyone here is a loon.)  I'm busy, really busy these days, and when I've been posting here, it's mostly on a borrowed minute.  Like right now.  I should be sleeping, since I've hardly slept all week.  But I just wanted to respond, and say that lack of critical responses on my end is not due to a particular lack of agency.

Back in Sedona, I used to have somewhat of a self-righteous mission to spar with channelers and ET cultists (good god, there was even an “alien team” of channelers in town that went by the name of The A Team; everyone dressed in white jump suits and they all rode in a big van.)  But some of the “nutty” stuff I heard turned out to have something behind it.  I used to laugh at a boy who told me on a number of occasions about the black helicopters and the secret base at the foot of a particular mountain nearby.  Then I saw them.  Sleek, black, unmarked military helicopters, with the individuals on board also dressed in all black uniforms, cruising right over my log cabin at the edge of national forest land.  Heading straight for the mountain that had been identified as the site of the base.  Flashing lights on and off in morse-code like signals right at the mountain. 

I saw them on two occasions.  I have no idea who they are, and I totally agree that the existence of some special ops guys in black military helicopters may not have ANYTHING to do with all the extraterrestrial stuff that gets associated with them.  But the stories, I learned, weren't pure urban myth.  People really were telling the truth about what they were seeing out there.  (A friend's father was hiking in the woods back there and was stopped by a man in black uniform on horseback and told not to go further.  I believe my friend's father was telling the truth.)

One last note.  I don't think I read anywhere where anyone directly said ETs shot down the twin towers.  I read (or skimmed, really) the article where I think you are getting that idea, but I didn't get the same impression that that's what the author meant.  (I think the suggestion was that US space-based lasers did it).  But anyway, the point I wanted to make is this:  the reasoning in that article can't technically be called “magical thinking.”  The arguments made are based on Orange-level reasoning power.  They may be misguided arguments, or the conclusions may be far-fetched, but it isn't magical thinking per se.  It's possible to use reason to arrive at wrong conclusions.

Best wishes,

B.

Re: UFOs

You're right Bruce. It wasn't an alien space beam. Rather, a “super secret beam weapon” used by the servants of the alien masters.

“We don't know - and cannot know at present - whether some super secret beam weapon was used to take down the Twin Towers on 9/11; but it is possible. And frankly, it is the one explanation that seems to cover all the anomalies. Bottom line is: Something is happening, there is a schedule, and the servants of the alien masters are pushing an agenda that few of us understand. They are trying to cement controls, to solidify their power base, because Something Wicked This Way Comes.”


I appreciate your Sedona tales. I actually have my own experiences to -maybe if I have time -share in regard to this topic, but the moral of the story is that, indeed, we can not have a rational conversation, much less a truly Integral conversation, about this without addressing or including some really, really deep issues that it evokes and brings to the fore. One is indeed, at root, how this subject, by nature, evokes -or can evoke - truly magical consciousness structures, either in the form of hope/wish or fear/dread. Mythological to follow, but it's the magical-emotional that really takes off these days. (We note also how this is also coupled almost inherently with a distrust of government, cultural authority, etc.)

The other issue is that it really does get down to a fundamental existential -and so spiritual -level. i.e. this world, and so my life, our lives, all of history, etc. was not what we thought it was. And so then, what is it?

Re: UFOs

Liz,

great to hear your skepticism! your candor is very much appreciated.

however, also please take the time to evaluate the personalities referenced in this thread. e.g. my video links to Steven Greer. like i said, i'm new to him so i still don't know. but i'm taking the time to evaluate his credibility by finding out more about him and his project, rather than jumping the gun and labeling any belief in UFO as a product of magical/mythical/purple worldview.

and since we're in the I-I pod, i'd like to remind you that one of the founders of I-I, Joe Firmage, is a UFO enthusiast. check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Firmage#Extraterrestrial_Interests

also, as Tom Huston had pointed out: “one-time I-I president Keith Thompson wrote one of the most comprehensive and literate books ever composed on the subject: ”Angels and Aliens.” 

now what does that tell you?

but for the record, i agree with you. “aliens destroying the twin towers” is ludicrous.

what i personally want to see on this thread is a rational discussion with very very very minimal irrational speculation. so let's hold our horses on speculation that we can't back up unless we can point to something to prove it, or to someone who claims that they have the evidence. Steven Greer is one such person. he claims he can prove and back up his extraordinary (yep, weird out of this world) claims. and let's stick to the facts.

check out The Disclosure Project, watch the two-hour long May 9, 2001 Conference video and listen to what *credible* people had to say about their experiences. these people are not your typical New Age junkies. these people are high-ranking government, military, and public officials who are willing to testify before congress. they have nothing to gain and everything to lose by putting themselves on the line. so listen to them, evaluate their statements, and let's be the jury.

that is all for now.

~C

Re: UFOs

Thanks for this excellent response, C4.  I agree with you. 

I think there is a (pretty understandable) fear of getting sucked into a morass of fanciful speculation and magical thinking even broaching this subject, which is probably one reason why it is almost never mentioned on Integral forums (I've hardly seen any references to the subject over the past several years on IN or I-Multiplex or, now, here).   And perhaps there's some shadow or ego stuff too – attachment to not being labeled “green” or “Boomer” or something, and so taking a defensive posture against anything which has the potential to get you negatively labeled. 

I think it is easy to label something with a “color” based primarily on the subject matter and the associations that go with it, rather than on the actual structure of thinking that may be brought to bear on it, or even used to support it, in any given situation.  If we are going to be prudently skeptical here (and with this subject, I think we should be), I think we also need to be discerning in our use of labels and make sure we aren't just broad-brushing something based on common associations with the subject rather than considering that there may be multiple valid ways to approach, and multiple levels on which a subject can be entertained and explored.

With this subject, I think it is important to stress that there is nothing irrational about the idea that other life exists in the universe (in fact, it seems quite rational to assume that it does, based on what we know now about the structure and size of the cosmos, the genesis of life, etc), nor is it irrational to consider that some life may be capable of interstellar travel.  These notions in themselves are not “magical” or “mythic.”  Acknowledging this is an important first step in beginning to think responsibly about this subject, without giving in to social (or even Integral cultural) pressure to resist association with “far out ideas.”

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: UFOs

Hi, C4- I just don't have time, as I said in this other post, which you may not have seen. (Two hour video??!) I don't summarily reject the notion of there being other intelligent life in the universe, and I don't have a lot of interest in it. Maybe if they come and help us with the global warming thing…

Liz

Re: UFOs

“Maybe if they come and help us with the global warming thing…”

that's exactly! what Greer is arguing for!

jeez, if you have time for Wilber, then i suggest you make a time for Greer whenever you can. coz if Greer is correct, then this is, arguably, more relevant and important than anything AQAL :)

but just a word of caution: Greer's claims are way out there, especialy when he starts talking about meditation, ETs, and consciousness.

~C

Re: UFOs

Liz said:
“Aliens destroying the twin towers? … I said nothing at first because I thought others would surely publicly criticize such a ludicrous statement. What you're practicing here is blind compassion, folks.”

Actually, I've dabbled in UFO discussions on the internet since around 1995, and one thing you learn very quickly is how to ignore the nutcases who want to drag down the conversation with kooky ideas.  I saw some of that stuff on this thread but chose to ignore it, not out of compassion (idiot compassion or otherwise), but simply because I don't have the patience or the time…

Tom

Re: UFOs

I don't think ET would do a thing like that.


I found this interesting on the UFO timeline:

Re: UFOs

Tom: I think Steven Greer's credible enough, but like most ufologists, he isn't very integral.  He tends toward the nuts-n-bolts ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis) of UFO origins, which I find to be far too simplistic an explanation as it's usually stated. 

Hi Tom

I watched a video yesterday (I think from C4s blog - sorry to be so vague, I tracked through quite a few) where he was refering to subtle and causal dimensions to extraterrestrials. It was the video of what looked like a 'private' seminar, I'll track it down and post a link later.

Juliee 

edit: here it is be warned it is very long!

Re: UFOs

Thanks for the link, Juliee!  I'll check it out. 

Tom

Re: UFOs

I'm a little surprised to find this thread here, of all places.  Disclaimer: ok I have no knowledge or experience of the things that are mentioned here, so I allow for the possibility that I am merely completely ignorant.

However, some of the arguments here strike me as very peculiar.  Several people use the 'so many people can't be wrong' argument.   The fact that thousands of people believe in these theories, and have interpreted certain experiences in these ways, does not suggest anything to me - considering the countless magic/mythic beliefs that pervade even modern western societies.

Also, from the little reading I've done, the 2012 stuff is based on some dubious calculations and interpretations, apparently to justify theories of a 'new age' where we're all going to be raised to a higher level, HIGHER VIBRATIONS will abound, and best of all we don't have to do anything to make it happen.  The alien theories seem to tend to tie into this as well. 

Reading this thread has been one long cringe for me, it really does sound like flakey new age twaddle to me.  Perhaps I should examine the 'proof' more closely, maybe one day I will.  Just my perspective, folks.

/runs to hide his whale music CDs and copies of the Celestine Prophecy  :-P

Re: UFOs

Reading this thread has been one long cringe for me

I wondered about this - I tend to cringe when something quite personal to me (an ideology; an opinion; something 'irrational') is disturbed. I cringe when my mother rattles on endlessly about nothing to the postman (i.e. my preference for her to act according to my preferred image, ie. one that reflects well on me, is not being adhered to).

I am enjoying the, for the most part, “I don't know, but here is my experience, and here is some other information I found interesting” attitude here - and I very much appreciate the catalogue of links to various sites and videos that are not blurred by Celestine Prophesy type writing (which I abhored because of the sheer awfullness of the actual writing). Some of the people here who have react negatively to this thread appear to have systematically not followed up on any of the links, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I have no attachment to there being UFO's or not, or that they were in some way behind 9/11. I apologize if I have thrown a wooly spanner into the works by the quote above from Laura Knight Jadczyk, and yet it seems to have inspired some pretty fixed and emotionally driven opinions.

I have found that whenever I say 'bullshit' about something, and I then take a look at why I've said this, it is because my ideology  / belief system has been threatened - and my 'bullshit' reaction is merely an indication of my own, um, bullshit (see Harry Frankfurt on Bullshit - “The motivation of the bullshitter is not to say things that are true or even to say things that are false, but is serving some other purpose..”).

I'd rather not divert the flow here, so I may not continue with this vein of discussion if there are responses - my preference is for the thread to continue to be a sharing of people's specific experiences and any of the more creditable information on the the net. Thanks all,

Sandra

Re: UFOs

You're quite right, Sandra, I for one haven't had the time to actually follow up the links that have been posted (I've been reading snippets at work).  I was just expressing my immediate feeling here, intended in a tongue-in-cheek way - hence my disclaimer and Celestine Prophecy remark.  There is surely room for a smart way of separating truth from fiction in these matters, something I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on.  And I appreciate that people in this thread have expressed actual personal experiences.  My cringe reaction comes from my perception of 'new age' elements in the discussions, a possibly incorrect perception, and in any case I felt there was room for a little scepticism here.  :-)

Ken

Re: UFOs

Hi Kendoji,

If I may paraphrase Ken Wilber here, I think that two kinds of people believe in UFOs: those who are gullible nitwits and those who have actually studied the evidence.  Those in between make it a point of “intellectual” merit not to believe.  So it's a bit of a pre/trans situation.

The US government definitely believes in UFOs (or at least their radar equipment does).  I suggest you browse a few items in the NSA's public document collection for starters, which contains many PDF reports of UFO tracking by foreign and domestic installations.  Most of the documents are all blacked-out and whited-out – which is what allowed them to be declassified from “Top Secret Umbra” and posted on the internet – but there's enough still legible to be interesting.  (You can see the CIA's somewhat less interesting public documents here.)

The single best book on the US government's UFO coverup, by far, is ”UFOs and the National Security State” by Richard Dolan.  If you read that with an even 1% open mind, you'll be convinced there's something going on. :)

Tom

Re: UFOs

Thanks everyone, for your reasoned responses. It seems all I needed to know was that there was good healthy skepticism out there and not blind acceptance. I actually think there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe, I just don't think we can be too careful about letting our emotional need to not be alone get in the way of our God-given brains.

I can think of a thousand things to write at the moment, but like Bruce and Kendoji, I just don't have time to do so.

Liz

Re: UFOs

Liz said: “I actually think there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe, I just don't think we can be too careful about letting our emotional need to not be alone get in the way of our God-given brains.”

Amen to that!  The fear of being “alone” is, in my experience, what keeps us from realizing that we are Alone–with a capital A.  It's the subtle sense of separation in consciousness that prevents us from taking responsibility for the Kosmos, as ourselves.  If all is One, then there's nobody but You to run this whole show…

I don't think it's an arcane point–and I think it's definitely part of what fuels so much of the emotional desire for people to believe in alien beings, angels, and all the rest.  It's the same desire that makes us feel we're not “complete” until we find that perfect other to make us whole.

Tom

Re: UFOs

hello everyone,

allow me to continue with this topic with a press release email i just received from The Disclosure Project. yep, i subscribed to their newsletter :) i'm such a sucker!

seriously, i think we should approach the topic of UFOs with our critical thinking caps on high alert! the less speculation and New Age mumbo jumbo, the better. let's stick to *facts* and *credible* individuals we can point to. i suggest that speculations about aliens and other weird conspiracy theories without *credible* and *falsifiable* references should be posted on other threads. there, i said it.

anyway, here's the press release email.

————

INSIDERS EXPOSE REASONS FOR UFO SECRECY

Disclosure Project (www.DisclosureProject.org) Director Dr. Steven M. Greer reports that government insiders have revealed the existence of a shadowy, highly classified program related to UFOs.

The reasons for the secrecy are simple: The inertia of highly classified programs, embarrassment over past illegal actions taken to enforce secrecy, and the fact that the energy and propulsion systems behind the mysterious UFO objects have been studied and fully understood. This disclosure would spell the end for oil, gas, coal and other conventional forms of power - and with that, the end of the current oil-based geopolitical order and economy. The truth is our tax dollars have been used to investigate this matter for decades and it is time for a dividend on that investment. The full disclosure of the facts will enable humanity to attain a sustainable civilization without global warming or the need for oil.

Recent calls for a US government investigation into UFOs have not taken into account the fact that such investigations are on-going, highly compartmented and top-secret.

Dr. Greer states, “As early as 1993, when I personally briefed CIA Director James Woolsey on the UFO matter, we knew of on-going, secret projects to which President Clinton and Mr. Woolsey were denied access.  The senior counsel for the Senate Appropriations Committee, then headed by Senator Byrd (D-WV) told me directly that upwards of $100 billion per year was going into so-called 'black' projects, including UFO programs, but that with a top-secret clearance and a subpoena power, he could not penetrate the veil of secrecy.”

Subsequently, working with philanthropist Laurence Rockefeller, Dr. Greer provided in-depth briefing materials for President Clinton and Hillary Clinton, who reviewed the matter while staying at the Rockefeller's JY Ranch. (The briefing materials are at www.DisclosureProject.org).

Dr. Greer reports that “The Clintons refused further disclosure of the!
 matter. CIA Director Woolsey frankly stated that they could not disclose programs over which they had no control or access. Mr. Woolsey and the Clintons were shaken by the secrecy, and the power behind it.”

Since then, The Disclosure Project has uncovered thousands of official US documents and top-secret military and corporate witnesses to programs dealing with UFOs, including project code names and numbers.  Such operations are rogue and are beyond the scope of Congressional oversight committees.

For further information or for an interview with Dr. Greer contact: http://www.DisclosureProject.org.

Note: The two paragraphs referring to Laurence Rockefeller and to Bill and Hillary Clinton had to be removed from this press release when we sent it out through our press release service - PRNewswire.com, because they refused to send out the original press release with those references.  It was referred up  the chain of command at their organization and censored by them. When you think that we have a free press, think again. This was not even censored by the outlets themselves, but by the entry point to those outlets!

————

AND HERE is the link to the actual press release at EarthTimes.org:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/news_press_release,223213.shtml

yep, the references to Rockefeller and The Clintons have been removed. ah, well.

and finally, here's a link to the briefing materials referenced in the press release. note that a donation is required to have full access to the briefing materials.
http://www.disclosureproject.org/access.htm

——–

Description of contents:

500+ page Briefing Document and the 70+ page Executive Summary. These materials were designed to educate the leaders of society. A hard copy of the Executive Summary was hand delivered to the office of each member of Congress in the weeks prior to the May 9th Press Conference.

The Executive Summary is a summary of the materials in the Briefing Document. Click on the following links for more information:
# About The Executive Summary - List of Witnesses
# Witness Testimony Samples

The Briefing Document includes the following:
# Insightful papers by Dr. Greer that put the issues around the UFO/ETI subject into perspective. He explains the implications for the environment, world peace, world poverty and the human future.
# Summary of transcripts of witness testimony from dozens of military, government and corporate witnesses.
# Well researched background cases of UFO sightings and landings.
# Dozens of Government documents related to UFO sightings showing the Government's knowledge and involvement in the subject for decades.

——–

just to get this out of the way… i'm sharing this information but it doesn't mean that i buy everything hook, line, and sinker. i'm posting it here to illicit a civilized, rational, and informed discussion on the matter. ok. allow me to start the discussion.

in this press release, Greer referenced actual names of high profile people! (e.g. Rockefeller, Woolsey, The Clintons). if you've watched Greer's videos (like this video) you'll notice that he tells this story a lot and claims that he can back it up with solid evidence and documents, photos, videos, etc. now, it's possible that Greer is a deluded crackpot who is lying to his teeth.

BUT, think about it, if he's a lying crackpot, it's so easy to dismiss him! one denial from Woolsey, Rockefeller, The Clintons, and even Kucinich, about their associations with Greer would tarnish his credibility forever! and yet, Greer is still out there and had successfully convinced 400+ *credible* witnesses to join The Disclosure Project?

so what does that tell you? you decide.

and speaking of The Disclosure Project, do you ever wonder why the May 9, 2001 National Press Club UFO Conference didn't get that much media coverage, similar to what had happened with the recent November 12, 2007 National Press Club UFO Conference?

check out this essay from Greer:

http://www.disclosureproject.org/mediaplay.htm

——————-

Media Play

Conventional Wisdom has it that we live in a free and open society with a free press, which plays the role of a key check and balance on government secrecy and abuse. This and other fantasies, foisted on a gullible public, have enabled runaway illegal secret projects to get away with murder, and they are now on the verge of planeticide - the killing of an entire planet.

The truth is that we have free media - so long as it is inconsequential. That is, freedom of the press exists so long as it is exercised within a certain sphere of influence that does not reach a critical mass of significance. Sure, you can say and write anything - so long as it does not get placed in front of the masses in an honest way. The quaint notion of a free press, serving as the Fourth Estate and watching vigilantly over the interests of The People is one of the great lies perpetrated by the government, and by the corporate media itself. Every insider knows this is a lie.

Big Media must be distinguished from the media in general, insofar as the former is utterly corrupted and the latter is sequestered into spheres of limited influence and significance. Mass retail media - the nightly news, CNN, The NY Times, The Washington Post, Newsweek, Time and the like are less free on anything of real significance than the media of many third world countries - or even communist China.

Read more.

Re: UFOs

Quick note:

C4, et al : “Maybe if they come and help us with the global warming thing…”

that's exactly! what Greer is arguing for!

jeez, if you have time for Wilber, then i suggest you make a time for Greer whenever you can. coz if Greer is correct, then this is, arguably, more relevant and important than anything AQAL :)


Do you see how, when speaking of Global Warming in association with this topic, it becomes inherently existential?

Re: UFOs

timelody said:
“Do you see how, when speaking of Global Warming in association with this topic, it becomes inherently existential?”

And the thing is, that's what the UFO occupants have been warning people about since the 50s–about the threat of nuclear weapons and, even more commonly, about the damage we're doing to the environment.  The Little Green Men been fairly consistent–and insistent–on this point…

Re: UFOs

Mascha, I'm sorry I'm responding to you so late.  I lost track of your post in this thread, but I recall that you had asked for more info on the transcriptions I had.  I've been quite busy, but I did look last night in some boxes of material and found a bit more info.  I am hesitant about posting any more of the transcripts online, simply because I did them for the Disclosure Project and they have the rights to them. 

But…I'm happy to talk a little about them! 

One I looked at last night was just a familiar story of lights behaving strangely.  In this account, the lights were seen over a military post by several officers as they were working the night shift.  There were 3 red lights in an equilateral triangular formation.  One of the lights shot off into the distance at a very high speed, then returned to the formation, then eventually the formation rose directly into the sky and disappeared without a sound.

I recall a couple other accounts that struck me as interesting.  One deals in part with these stories of black operations, diverted funds, and possible “back-engineered” technology.  If I recall correctly, a woman was hired to work in the private sector for a high tech company in CA which did contract work for the state.   She quickly found out that she was working for a “dummy” department.  She had to file paperwork in order to get government funding for certain pedestrian projects, but looking into things, she found the same exact file had been submitted for years on end, and there actually was no work being done in any of those areas.  Whatever she was working for, it was just a front to get funds, which were then being used for other secret projects.  As I recall, she didn't ever know exactly what she was doing – and when she began to question too much, she got threatened and harrassed and eventually left her position – but her story corroborates stories by several government witnesses who indicated that this high tech company was actually serving as a front for government projects associated with UFO research.

I recall other interesting accounts, too, but my memory of the details is too sketchy.  Most of these transcripts are probably published now on the Disclosure Project site if you register with them.  After all this time, and having originally been a part of it, I probably should join them myself!

Best wishes,

B.

Re: UFOs

Thank you, Balder, for your efforts to find the transcripts. I figured that I knew the gist of the stories they told when you mentioned they were commissioned by Steven Greer. The man is a hero in my book, a formidable eco-spiritual warrior. He's sitting on a volcano with a bunch of high powered whistleblowers, trying to pry the lid off so that the rest of humanity may finally be able to see what's  really been cooking all along underneath our officially censored “history.” A volcano of information, available on the internet for everyone who is willing to do some homework to see. But it's information that will rock the foundations of the consensus worldview and collapse a bunch of governments.

What to do? I do research in my spare time even without pay and help in various ways (sadly, not very effective so far) to provide momentum and a safe environment for whistleblowers to come forward.

Good luck to us all, we need it.

m

Re: UFOs

Mascha,

How's this?  I started to draft a simple little something about my ET experiences last night and my brand new computer went “pzzzzzaaaaap!” and that was it.  Now I'm up at my sister's place where I tread lightly and have placed calls to fix the new machine.

I tell ya, it made me really think about the whole damn thing.  In a lot of ways, I don't care about the friggin aliens nearly as much as I care about the GD gov'mint and their patronizing shenanigans.  What is so friggin' dangerous about the truth?  It brings Matrix, the movie, to mind, that's for sure.

Clearly, the subject is one over which I have not one whit of control.  I do like the idea that the ET's might have some suggestions as to what we can do with the mess around here though.

Yer semi-throttled pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Michael: …..“pzzzzzaaaaap!”….

That  sure gives rise to another one of those much vaunted coincidence theories.

What is so friggin' dangerous about the truth?

No need to tell you that we're engaged in an information war. As a former political campaign consultant, you know a lot of the sordid details about how this war is waged on a global scale. The rest of us can at least realize that the corruption has reached critical mass, a point where massive amounts of  suppressed doodoo are ready to erupt into full public view. That's what makes speaking out so important and dangerous now. Will “the powers that be” declare martial law under the next fabricated pretext and take away the internet as our last tool to join in the effort of turning the Titanic around, or…  not.


Sometimes I shrug it off and say, who cares? If y'all want to keep trudging along in denial, go ahead, earthlings. Personally, I am ready to die in one of those obscenely avoidable cataclysms, manufactured because of the colossal ignorance of humans in their transition from adolescence to responsible galactic citizen. Eh.


.

Re: UFOs

Michael: How's this?  I started to draft a simple little something about my ET experiences last night and my brand new computer went “pzzzzzaaaaap!” and that was it.  Now I'm up at my sister's place where I tread lightly and have placed calls to fix the new machine.

~~~

Sounds like the aliens have got some really advanced reputation software up and running…cool.  :p

Plus they managed, however indirectly, to get me to post on this thread…impressive.

arthur

Re: UFOs

I'm open minded about the whole wide ranging phenomena of UFOs. I also appreciate balanced and well thought out investigation in this field,.

The most reasoned and well-balanced TV documentary I've seen on UFOs can be found here. (Looks like the person posting this on You Tube has broken the original full-length documentary into 6 parts) It mostly consists of interviews with experienced pilots, astronuats and scientists - which is great!

Most impressive section for me was re. the black triangle craft over Belgium. They interview one of the pilots sent to intercept, one of the commanders on the ground, plus then sending the radar data from separate ground radar units to a independent expert. All 3 conclude that what they recorded was real and most likely not of human origin because the speed and manouverability of the craft was way beyond anything currently known even to experts in the field.

However, my own take on the phenomena is that the most likely source is US military secret research, and the extent of their technical development has not been divulged to the world of aeronautical science at large, such as to the guys in Belgium. See here for declassified 1955 report on development of  saucer shaped craft. If they were planning something this advanced in 1955 what have they developed since?

 Nick cook's documentaries are also good on this.  I found this section of his documentary particularly intriguing - From wikipedia:
 “During the program, aviation journalist Nick Cook presented a satellite image of the continental U.S. showing a contrail allegedly originating in Nevada and extending over the Atlantic Ocean. The contrail was unusual, as it appeared different from other contrails visible on satellite images. The craft that produced those contrails was not visible on the image. Based on the details of the image, it was speculated that it indicated an aircraft flying at a speed of around 7,000 mph (Mach 10.5)”

Where might the money be coming from to develop such technology? Well, some interesting pre 9-11 “unaccounted for” military budget figures quoted here & here.

I am aware, however, that my take on this does not explain many of the “out of atmosphere” sightings reported by astronuats - watch the documentary if you have the time.

Live long and prosper :-)

James

Re: UFOs

James,

thanks for all your links! very interesting documentaries! will check them out soon as i get the chance. for now, i've added them on the video library :)

for those who's interested to watch a collection of these documentaries, check out this link:
http://videos.zaadz.com/tagged/UFO

everyone,

then again, i'd like to remind everyone to not get carried away with speculation and conspiracy theories. this topic is so DEEP and convoluted. so let's keep our thinking caps on and stick to *facts* and *evidence* and people who are *credible*.

i'm currently researching The Disclosure Project to find out more about them. so far, i haven't found any debunking on the said project. usually, negative things would appear on the wikipedia entry. but in this instance, nothing so far. there's a criticism section on the wikipedia entry, but it doesn't hold water. check it out. in short, it's dismissive but nothing substantial to counter the project.

so if anyone out there can dig up a valid skeptical criticism on The Disclosure Project, please share it on this thread.

[NOTE: Here's a critical reporting from Wired Magazine way back in 2001 when they covered the UFO conference.

“Until UFO fanatics produce tangible evidence – an alien body, an unknown metal, or a beam-mobile – their claims should be dismissed with prejudice, says Kevin Christopher, a spokesman for the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal.

Christopher says, “In the end, what's the evidence? It's secondhand information, it's snippets of evidence, someone might have seen something. Where's the hard evidence…? There's nothing concrete. Where's the craft? Where are the aliens?”

Greer, the UFO aficionado, has a ready answer: squirreled away inside government labs so secret that not even the president knows about them. “People in Congress who make inquiries, and President Clinton who made inquires, are simply denied access,” he said.

To Greer and his Disclosure Project colleagues, establishing the existence of UFOs is not a mere theoretical concern, but one of unimaginable urgency – yep, you guessed it, the fate of all humanity hangs in the balance.”

Re: UFOs

Thanks for the link to that, C4!  I was looking for it the other day when I mentioned the government wanting to use ETs as a justification for the militarization of space… I think Greer is right on the money here…
Cosmic Deception: Let the Citizen Beware

Re: UFOs

Hey Tom do you know of documentation or hard evidence from the CSETI expeditions Greer mentions in the article above where he says,

CSETI (The Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence - www.CSETI.org) which is the parent organization for The Disclosure Project (www.DisclosureProject.org) has been sending expeditions around the world for 16 years to make contact with ET peoples. We have never been harmed. We have never been threatened. We have never been afraid. Thousands of people over the course of hundreds of expeditions, have interacted with these UFOs – and with the beings on-board them.

So CSETI claims close encounter of the third kind.  What documentation or data do they have?  I haven't had time to dig it up and I'm wondering if someone is familiar with this and some links.  What type of interaction?   Are scientific methods used to contextualize these encounters?  Are there patterns, verifiable recurrences?  The shadowy government story has a high profile and it's a hard, hard sell.  I'm more interested in their independent research and it's credibility.

Re: UFOs

hi ROD,

i replied to your comment on your blog related to this same question. i'm crossposting my comment here :) follow the links.

———-

ROD said: “Really?  Honestly I haven't had time to dig up proof of those claims but what hard data does CSETI have from expeditions and are they replicated with some scientific method as a base?  Wouldn't that be the all the proof the Disclosure Project needs, Close Encounters of whatever kind they're talking about? ”

good questions ROD! well, CSETI has position papers that goes way back to 1991. case in point: check out Greer's Reply to Woolsey Letter. Greer even quoted a memo from John Petersen (of the Arlington Institute). if this is true, then it's very juicy ;)

but like you, i'm all for hard data too! they (i.e. Greer) do claim that they have it! aside from testimonies from credible people, they have thousands of hours of video footage. classified papers, etc.

i guess at this point, we're armchair spectators so it would take some effort on our part to meet their claims and “evidence.”

on my part, what i'll i do is start with the three books that Dr. Greer published, the documents published on The Disclosure Project website, the briefing documents they sent to all members of Congress, and the videos i've collected online. and then evaluate their claims and follow the breadcrumbs. man! i'm beginning to sound like Mulder here :)

of course, only on my free time. i'm not planning to make a career out of UFOlogy. i have a life and job to tend to. but this topic is still interesting because if by any chance that they are correct, then the stakes are high and as the old G.I. Joe mantra goes, “knowing is half the battle.” maybe that's why Dr. Steven Greer bothers to do what he's doing?

but when everything is said and done, for me, seeing, feeling, smelling, touching, tasting, hearing, knowing and being is believing :)

~C

Re: UFOs

hey Tom,

i just saw this on the CSETI website. since you're interested on Integral UFOlogy, maybe you'll have some use for this essay by Steven Greer :)

Extraterrestrials and the New Cosmology

“The universe is teeming with intelligent life. In fact, the universe itself is intelligent and alive. The multiplicity of life in the universe, while diverse, is essentially a singularity; beyond division, it exists in the unitive state, a marvelous, conscious Oneness. All that there is exists in its true nature as pure, undifferentiated, eternal Mind. And yet from the awareness of that which is relative, we find inner and outer, mind and body, good and evil, oneness and separation. Truth is often born from the contemplation of these paradoxes; both perspectives are true, but are dependent on the level of awareness of the observer.”

“As we ponder the universe and a new cosmology which accounts for the existence of advanced non-human life forms, the lesson of the paradox will visit us over and over again. But if we look intently with the eye of oneness, perhaps the cosmos will offer up a few of its mysteries.”

Read more.

enjoy!

~C

Re: UFOs

This came out of a PM exchange with a community member and so I thought I'd just post it here for the sake of discourse (with a few embellishments).

* * * * * * * * * *

Yes, on the crop circles I more or less am in the perfectly explainable man-made -even hoax -camp. I watched it done on TV once and I just find no compelling reason to speculate or believe otherwise. Although on your recommendation I will check out that video if I can.

See, not only do I remain open-minded, but I do have a history of being as much interested in ET's among us, etc. as anyone. And, I actually pursued the topic quite a bit at one point. Even to the point where I had a very deep and profound experience over it, that lasted several weeks, actually. And this was also during a more or less ongoing meditation retreat and I think that's what made the difference. In ways that are a bit hard to explain in a short space, I just really had the opportunity to live with, experience, come to terms with -and examine deeply (and it wasn't easy either) -how so very much this issue just shoots right to the core of your primordial existential -very deep -and magical-emotional -very, very deep still -levels of being and consciousness.  And by existential and primordial I really mean like massive echoes of the darkness of evolution past. And by magical I mean some of the most fundamental early emotions, or, yes again, existential impulses. Levels of consciousness that we really are just not even very much familiar with anymore on any sort of regular basis. Now, when this gets coupled with psychic and subtle realms of being and consciousness… well, you've got something pretty major on your hands. I do not think we realize how spiritual this issue is. (And that's probably becasue we are culturally conditioned to take the stance that science = no spirit, and so ETs are science oriented and so must not be spiritual.) But after all, in the end, after really, really living -even freaking practically dying! -with this issue over the course of several weeks  -first, there was actually a psychic/subtle experience involved at the end, and then after that … I just don't believe anymore it is all really associated with genuine ET's from other planets. I think it's just us. And in many cases simply our own higher nature … finding itself in a very weird and confused cultural worldspace. (I think we need to really, really, really examine that the contours of “Jesus will come to save us from death” are exactly the same as “ET's will come to save us from death.” The only difference is the contents. The culturally molded contents.)

BUT - even if not, having experienced very deeply how much this issue strikes to these fundamental -and then spiritual -levels of consciousness - I am not compelled to pursue it much anymore without some seriously substantial,  yes, terribly objective reason. But I will be as open and willing as the next guy when we would know for sure! Don't get me wrong about that. It's just, again, even if they are here … or do come, or whatever … we would still have to face our primordial, existential, magical and mythical -powerful -reactions to that.

Re: UFOs

timelody, interesting statement (from whomever that was)… It reminds me of a classic quote: 

“There is in many of us, obviously, a deep-seated desire to assent to extraterrestrial forces – to be embraced by them, overwhelmed by them, and if possible deprived by them of our own weary responsibility for ourselves.”

 –'Hiccups from Outer Space,' Russell Davies, reviewing Close Encounters of the Third Kind in The Observer, March 19, 1978

Re: UFOs

C, thanks for the “Extraterrestrials and the New Cosmology” essay!  I may indeed have misjudged Greer, based on what I've read so far.  He's pretty out there… Most of what I know of him is from his appearances on the Art Bell radio show in the 90s, railing against the government for their ET secrecy.  So I always kind of pegged him for a “typical ETHer” (ETH = extraterrestrial hypothesis).  But he seems to have one of the more comprehensive takes on the phenomenon that I've ever seen!  Very, very cool.

So all my comments above about hardline ET believers still stand, but Greer gets an exemption. :)

Tom

Re: UFOs

hey everyone,

sorry to sound like a pimp for The Disclosure Project, but damn, this thing is so juicy :)

case in point: i just received an email announcement from The Disclosure Project. remember the recent UFO Conference organized by Fife Symington and James Fox? at first i thought that it had direct connections with The Disclosure Project. but it turned out that, although it's somewhat related, the recent UFO Conference was not organized by Steven Greer. check out the open letter below. and get this: they're recommending Dennis Kucinich to head the UFO investigation. i wonder what Kucinich is thinking right now :)

anyway, take this information for what it is and do your own digging. i'll ease up on this topic for now, before people get the impression that i'm obsessed with UFOs ;)

OPEN LETTER TO GOVERNOR SYMINGTON AND JAMES FOX

THE DISCLOSURE PROJECT

STEVEN M. GREER MD, DIRECTOR

14 November 2007

Dear Governor Symington and Mr. Fox,

Congratulations on an excellent press conference on Monday. We are heartened to see the process of Disclosure continuing and that some of the witnesses and materials brought forward by The Disclosure Project (http://www.DisclosureProject.org) are continuing to reach the public.

Regarding the request for a government/civilian panel to investigate the UFO matter, while we appreciate your laudable purpose in making this request, we are concerned about the unintended strategic consequences of such a process. To wit:

• It is important to realize that powerful and well-funded unacknowledged special access projects (USAPs) within sectors of the US and other governments, and working largely through �work for others� contracts with private institutes and corporations, have already been investigating the UFO/ET matter for decades.
• These projects are rogue, unconstitutional and transnational in nature. In briefings that I conducted personally for CIA Director R. James Woolsey, Defense Intelligence Agency Director General Patrick Hughes, the Director of Intelligence, Joint Staff (J2) and senior members of key Congressional committees (Senate Intelligence Committee, House Government Oversight committee, etc.) among others, it was made clear that the chain of command has been subverted. Even after providing current project code names and numbers to J2, and after he subsequently located one of these USAPs within the Pentagon and demanded to be �read into� (or briefed) on the operation, this Admiral informed us that he was denied access to these projects.


• The science and technology behind these ET vehicles have been studied since at least the 1940�s and have been largely understood and reproduced. Their energy and propulsion systems, once disclosed, would eliminate the need for oil, gas, coal, nuclear power, public utilities and so forth. Many UFO sightings are, in fact, of these advanced aircraft which have been developed by Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, SAIC and other military contractors and were operational by the late 1950s.


• Importantly, in 1969 the Condon Committee at the University of Colorado, a panel much like what you are recommending, became a fraud perpetrated on the public, and its chairman, Dr. Condon, was a secret, unacknowledged CIA asset (after briefing CIA Director Woolsey and making a FOIA request, we obtained a CIA document that establishes this fact). Dr. Robert Wood, then of McDonnel Douglas Aerospace, was involved with the Condon Committee and discovered that Dr. Condon was sanitizing any credible evidence from the report and even withheld such evidence from other panel members (see www.DisclosureProject.org witness testimony by Dr. Wood). When Dr. Wood challenged Dr. Condon on this behavior, Dr. Condon contacted Mr. McDonnel directly and attempted to get Dr. Wood fired. Any such committee today would most likely be a similar corrupt hoax and would seriously set-back Disclosure and only deepen the cover-up.


• In light of the above, we recommend a strategy to have open, secrecy-free hearings before a relevant Congressional committee, such as the House Government Oversight Subcommittee for domestic affairs, chaired by UFO-observer Rep. Dennis Kucinich, or some other committee headed by a similarly honest and trustworthy chairperson. Alternatively, a hearing by the UN or the World Court would be an acceptable venue.


• Importantly, since The Disclosure Project now has over 400 military, government, corporate and intelligence witnesses from around the world, as well as corroborating official documents and project code numbers and names, such a pool of witnesses testifying before an open, televised hearing would assure honest, real-time Disclosure. This process, so long as open and conducted by an honest chairperson, would be much less likely to be corrupted than a government panel investigation.

I wish you great success in your important work towards disclosing the truth about UFOs and wish to assure you that all of us at The Disclosure Project stand ready to assist you and this process in every way we can. Please feel free to contact me at any time to discuss this matter further.

Best always,

Steven M. Greer MD
Director
The Disclosure Project

Re: UFOs

Just so you know you're not alone, C4, I'll post the email I just read.
See, there are at least four of us around here… or five… :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Disclosure Project: Insiders Expose Reasons for UFO Secrecy


Note to all those receiving this second Disclosure Project press release… please note that two paragraphs - those referring to Laurence Rockefeller and to Bill and Hillary Clinton - have been removed from the second one. The service we use for sending out press releases: PRNewswire.com, refused to send out the original press release with those references. It was referred up the chain of command at their organization and censored by them. When you think that we have a free press, think again. This was not even censored by the outlets themselves, but by the entry point to those outlets!

INSIDERS EXPOSE REASONS FOR SECRECY (Revised)

Washington, DC



Disclosure Project (www.DisclosureProject.org) Director Dr. Steven M. Greer reports that government insiders have revealed the existence of a shadowy, highly classified program related to UFOs.

The reasons for the secrecy are simple: The inertia of highly classified programs, embarrassment over past illegal actions taken to enforce secrecy, and the fact that the energy and propulsion systems behind the mysterious UFO objects have been studied and fully understood. This disclosure would spell the end for oil, gas, coal and other conventional forms of power - and with that, the end of the current oil-based geopolitical order and economy. The truth is our tax dollars have been used to investigate this matter for decades and it is time for a dividend on that investment. The full disclosure of the facts will enable humanity to attain a sustainable civilization without global warming or the need for oil.

Recent calls for a US government investigation into UFOs have not taken into account the fact that such investigations are on-going, highly compartmented and top-secret.

Dr. Greer states “As early as 1993, when I personally briefed CIA Director James Woolsey on the UFO matter, we knew of ongoing, secret projects to which President Clinton and Mr. Woolsey were denied access. The senior counsel for the Senate Appropriations Committee, then headed by Senator Byrd (D-WV) told me directly that upwards of $100 billion per year was going into so-called ‘black’ projects, including UFO programs, but that with a top-secret clearance and a subpoena power, he could not penetrate the veil of secrecy.”

Since then, The Disclosure Project has uncovered thousands of official US documents and over 400 top-secret military and corporate witnesses to programs dealing with UFOs, along with project code names and numbers. Such operations are rogue and deny access to Congressional oversight committees.

The Disclosure Project is calling for open hearings in the Congress and UN so that these whistle-blowers may testify. Previous government/civilian panels, such as the Condon Committee of 1969, proved to be white-wash operations and were penetrated by CIA involvement. Dr. Greer states “We feel that an open hearing process would be the best avenue for our democracy to reassert control over these rogue operations. We have hundreds of heroic government whistle-blowers who need to be heard.”

For further information or for an interview with Dr. Greer contact: www.DisclosureProject.org.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Out of the closet comes your

 m

Re: UFOs

Atta girl M.,

Sometimes we have to get our skirts a little dirty to get the wagon out of the mud.

Yer pal,
Red M.

Re: UFOs

…mankind is standing on our porch in the fog…peering out and just thinking there may be a neighborhood beyond the mist…for the longest time thinking that this were the Only house on the block…
   …feels so good to stretch our legs and stand up out of flatland…

Re: UFOs

Interesting article from a UFO journal

Re: UFOs

A site that collects the latest UFO news, videos and interviews with government whistleblowers.

Scroll down the page for “highly controversial” video sessions with Sgt. Clifford Stone, a government employee, who says he interfaced between the E.T.'s and the U.S. government. He seems to be sincere and offers some startling descriptions.


.

Re: UFOs

Jaysus M.!,

I gotta watch it all to give the guy a fair “read” but, oh my, on the implictions of such if his credibility can be substantiated.  Thanks for digging this up.

yr'M.

Re: UFOs

Hi folks, it's been a while since this thread was jumping.

But MichaelD posted this intriguing piece at Heartmind yesterday. Thanks for the Christmas present, MD!



Alien Nation


by Daniel Pinchbeck


While writing my books, I discovered that I was able to keep an open (if skeptical) mind, while exploring subjects that make most people flinch, whether shamanism, psychedelics or crop circles. These days, I continue to find myself curious about ideas and possibilities that lie even further out on the fringe, partially because of personal experiences I have had, ranging from UFO sightings to inexplicable manifestations. I seem to go through a process in absorbing a new pattern of information, first entertaining it as a vaguely humorous possibility and then slowly acclimatizing myself to it with increasing seriousness.

Lately, two new books have been tantalizing my worldview, suggesting new vistas of possibility. The books are Steven Greer’s Hidden Knowledge, Forbidden Truth, and Dark Mission: The Secret History of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration by Richard Hoagland and Michael Bara. Both books discuss extraterrestrials, alien technology and secret government cover-ups, but from different angles. While Hoagland and Bara offer the perspective that NASA is an occult organization that has concealed its findings of alien artifacts on the moon and elsewhere, Greer makes the case that there are numerous benevolent species of intelligent alien life, at a much higher stage of development than us, surrounding the Earth and ready to make contact when we are ready. Hoagland and Mara’s book is a weird, yet fascinating compendium of geometrical postulates and jarring details. Greer’s work, if true, is the best news that humanity has ever received.

Hoagland is well known for his previous work studying the “face on Mars” as a possible artificial construction, while Greer launched The Disclosure Project, getting military officers and intelligence agents to speak about classified encounters with UFOs and extraterrestrials. These accounts include that of Lieutenant Colonel Bob Salas, who was on duty, sixty feet underground at an ICBM missile base, on March 16, 1967, when a UFO appeared overhead, and the control systems for launching the missiles were suddenly deactivated. “Our missiles started shutting down one by one,” Salas reports. “By shutting down, I mean they went into a ‘no-go’ condition meaning they could not be launched.” The same thing occurred at another base, sixty miles away. “So that morning we lost anywhere from 16 to 18 ICBMS at the same time UFOs were in the area and were observed by airmen,” continues Salas. Greer proposes that the intelligences behind the UFOs were testing their capacity to neutralize the destructive capabilities of the military, and perhaps also indicating that the military was not going to be permitted to blow the planet to bits.

In Hidden Truth, Forbidden Knowledge, Greer tells an extraordinary personal story of his quest for understanding and his efforts to spread the word. He claims to be able to utilize meditation and psychic protocols to call in UFOs, which can be seen by himself and the people around him. “Any effort to contact ETs peacefully is greatly respected,” he writes. He notes that these ships — and the beings that inhabit them — can appear in fully materialized, semi-materialized, or astral form. He describes his meetings with major political figures and his interactions with a shadowy cabal that operates in secrecy and conceals their knowledge of the extraterrestrial presence and their advanced work reverse-engineering alien technology that could solve the world’s energy problems, along with many other applications.

I probably speak for many readers when I admit that I still find it hard to imagine that we are on the cusp of a new paradigm of extraterrestial communion that would literally usher the human race into a new world. Even if I allow myself to imagine it, I still find it a difficult psychological leap. This is the case, even though my own research into the crop circle phenomenon, detailed in 2012, led me to the hypothesis that the virtuosic formations were not human made, and had to be a communication — a teaching — from other levels of galactic intelligence. The accelerated development of our technology in the last decades suggests that we cannot imagine what a conscious species hundreds of thousands or millions of years more advanced than our own might be capable of creating, or what mechanisms they might use to travel across interstellar distances.

Having noted that, I also admit to being persuaded by the direct simplicity of Greer’s book and message, and delighted by his vision of an enlightened future for humanity, where the Earth has become a light-ship guiding us on a galactic mission of peaceful exploration. Near the end of Hidden Truth, Forbidden Knowledge, Greer offers this meditation: “Sitting quietly now, we see that we are joined by the angelic realm, the celestial beings, the astral worlds filled with our ancestors and with the beings from diverse worlds. And we see that there are extraterrestrial peoples joining us… And we hold within us this thought, and this vision of suffusing the earth in this golden light as it is brought in to this time of peace, and all the wars will be silenced and all the suffering will end.” If reality is somehow a co-creation of our consciousness, and we can determine which path to take, then I hope to join Dr. Greer in his reality tunnel.

____________________________________________________

Plus this video ({gotta learn how to embed on zaadz)}

NASA footage – Undeniable Proof of Aliens


C'mon, let's get real, shall we?

Correct answer: Yes, Ma'am!

Re: UFOs

Very interesting stuff.  I wish there was an easy way to verify this information though.

Re: UFOs

Heya M.

I finally got the film to load to see mile-wide ufo's de-materialize before my very eyes!!  Very cool and to hell with verifiction.  (no offense Eugene) What are we expecting, the State Department to step up and admit this decades long perfidy?  George Bush mangling the introduction to the Pleiadians?  Dick Cheney sneering sideways about how they all look a little gay?

yer pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Ha ha, Michael, now that you've mentioned it, those grey aliens in their tight little suits and swishy spaceships do look too gay for their own good.

But seriously, Eugene. Who or what organization would qualify as a convincing authority? CNN? CIA? KGB? How about the former Canadian Minister of Defense, Paul Hellyer, discussing the UFO Cover-up on MSNBC?

No, I don't think so. Nothing anybody says will ultimately do. And that's one of the truly great byproducts I see coming out of this ages-long swindle, the massive disinformation campaign every citizen on earth has been subjected to on several different levels. At long last, we finally have to discard all other authorities except for our own super-finely honed internal discernment to tell us what is real and what is spin. This is a form of purgatory in itself, the burning away of cloudbanks of fake knowledge we absorb from the unawakened culture surrounding us from the start.

Re: UFOs

Mascha,

“This is a form of purgatory in itself, the burning away of cloudbanks of fake knowledge we absorb from the unawakened culture surrounding us from the start.”

WORD!!

Judgment day's a'comin soon after, 'round 2012, an' all the toilets 'll start flushin' t'other way!!  Then we'll see whose been naughty and whose been nice. 

I don't expect things to change toooo much (heh heh) outside of them toilets and maybe the way hurricanes and typhoons spin from the north to down under.  There's likely to be a bit of psychic flabbergasting when we actually cross this galactic equator, but that shouldn't be too bad either as we seem to manage the odd trip north to south without much disruption.  Still, there could be a bit of confusion in the old zeitgeist when all these secrets that have been ratholed “down” the crappers regurgitate when the electro-magnetic vortices reverse direction and puke up the likes of Dick Cheney's real agenda.

Our sense of what time “is” might be due for a bit more correction (as seems to be the case already) maybe even a spine-tingling dose of it, who knows?

No wonder them ufo's are ganging up on us out there.  If I had a space jalopy and some time off from my job in the Pleiades, I'd fire 'er up and head on over to ol' Gaia for sure.

patiently,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Uhh:  “…when the electro-magnetic vortices reverse direction and puke up the likes of Dick Cheney's real agenda…” Now you've scared me, Michael! Yes, there are some alternative realities that I would really like to avoid. I keep reminding myself of the many doom and gloom scenarios that have been predicted and didn't come to pass in my lifetime alone.

And speaking of time, this past year didn't last longer than 15 days, I swear, it went so fast. While during the year, minutes would stretch into eternities, as ususal. So, time-warping shouldn't be too difficult as long as it stays within certain limits… Ah, who knows… We can count ourselves exceedingly lucky if we've somehow understood that not-knowing is safety itself – safety in utmost vulnerability and open-mindedness.

yer palette,

m

Re: UFOs

Hi Mascha, Michael

Thanks for the nudge, I got Hidden Truth, Forbidden Knowledge several weeks ago and haven't got round to opening it yet. Just what I need to fill the space (no pun intended) between xmas and new year when I need to retreat from a house full of kids!

I also ordered the meditation disc - I'll let you know how it goes (maybe by PM rather than in full public glare!!!!) ;D )

Juliee
x

Re: UFOs

Juliee,

In the “old” days, when I was first tuning into the world of conspiracies, the Illuminati, and etc., one phrase really stood out and seemed to go deeper than the rest, deeper than it seemed to merit until now:  “The hidden will be revealed.” 

Not wanting to get to far “out there” on the spectrum of disbelief, but, if there is anything that will characterize the overall affect of slipping past the galactic equator as has been calculated (with considerable disagreement) to be on the winter soulstice of 2012, it is this ” … hidden … revealed.” piece.  Clearly, as we encounter this equatorial horizon, much of the hidden record is already finding its way into the light.  How much of this “akashic” story can be held as true or even partially true is up to the individual's sense of “things.”  What matters to me is to keep the dialogue personal, open, and, as Mascha says, “vulnerable.” 

If “wounded” in any way by the revelations whether they be of the “dangerous new idea” variety or the other volcanic possibilities of terrestrial “upset,” we do know that others will be there to help us with the bandages and  transfusions.  Imo, this is why the development of new community and the capability to handle the consequences is of such great importance.

As a university for soul reincarnation, and spiritual expansion, (evolution)  the Earth may have no nearby peer.  No one wants to see this go up in smoke, not us, not even the bad guys, and surely not the ET culture who seem to have a great stake in the outcome here.  I think that, as far as population goes, well, the more the merrier.  Our problem has been the material focus of our species - how could this not produce a disproportionate delivery of goods and services, especially when you throw this misguided notion that competition is more important to evolution than cooperation?  An earth focused in spiritually-based community, and supported by technology that enhanced the garden vibe, may be able to accomodate 100B souls in relative harmony.  I'm for that, for the “all together, or none at all” approach to ascendance.

best,
Michael

Re: UFOs

>>But seriously, Eugene. Who or what organization would qualify as a convincing authority? CNN? CIA? KGB? How about the former Canadian Minister of Defense, Paul Hellyer, discussing the UFO Cover-up on MSNBC?

I just want to verify the source of the video.  Someone from NASA saying yes they shot it.  A link on NASA where I can find it.  At least an explanation of how they went about obtaining that video.  Anything really.  Ofcourse that responsibility lays solely in my hands, I can't disregard something because I'm too lazy or unable to go about finding such information.  I don't disregard it either.  I've seen the UFO's first hand in Mexico, I'm just not totally convinced they are extraterrestrial( although this tape would make it definitive if it is real ).

Re: UFOs

Thanks for clarifying your request, Eugene. Maybe this will be helpful. I  googled the words “Space Shuttle Columbia tether UFOs” and came up with pages worth of relevant links. Let us know if you find the verification you're looking for, will you?

Juliee, it would be great to hear your thoughts after you've read Dr. Greer's book. And why not right here on this very civilized thread? :)

Re: UFOs

Hi Mascha

Just finished the book…and I don't quite know what to say. I'd watched many of the video clips posted earlier on this thread from Stephen Greer and my question throughout was sort of…yes but why? His answer to that…eschatologists within the hardest core of the shadow group, was so close to a sci-fi favourite of mine that I struggled because of that.
The entirety of the book is like an amalgamation of a variety of sci-fi and new age books and I find myself torn between the testimony of 400+ witnesses and my 'rational' brain going “No!”.

Juliee

Re: UFOs

Juliee,

Might I suggest that everybody's “rational” mind immediately goes “Noooo!!!!”  How could this be?  Could our leaders have lied to us so thoroughly for so long - perish the thought!!”

But slowly, under the weight of th accumulating “experience” of others (if not yourself) another picture begins to emerge.  For so long, we have been told that we are it, in the universe, that only here on precious earth does life exist.  Most of us have long left that stricture behind, but there are vestiges of the odd-comfort that humans-as-a-singularity provided.  One, unfortunately being, the possibility that there are others, and these others are and have been here with us for a very long time.  Inescapable is the potential conclusion that we are labratory rats being examined and evaluated - or some such.  No one wants to jump to that conclusion thus you may be forgiven for the reflexes of your, er, rational mind.  The halls of the “given” tremble and we grow dense with fear.  Coming to grips with the “it doesn't matter” factor requires a visit to the edge of mortality.  In my experience, life did not begin for me until I was face to face with death.  This, I believe, is what underlies the UFO experience - “Do I have to?”  Yes, imo, we do.

best,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Hi Michael

Yes I think it's the 'human' end of the conspiracies that I struggle with, are there really people out there that are so 'evil' (I use 'evil' in a shorthand sense, understanding that these people are trapped in their view of the world)? I had a moment of thought though whilst reading one part of the book, an awareness of the arrogance of assuming that the 1930's-1940's Europe be the start and end of  modern western 'evil'.

I have few problems with the ideas of there being others alongside us and blending of 'out there'  with higher and higher levels of consciousness. So, as you say, experience is key and if spirituality is part of this jigsaw as Greer states, then that's the place to look for one's own experience.

Juliee

Re: UFOs

Juliee,

“So, as you say, experience is key and if spirituality is part of this jigsaw as Greer states, then that's the place to look for one's own experience.”

This, is as true as it gets for me.  Thank you for boiling it down so succinctly.

best,
Michael

Re: UFOs

>>Thanks for clarifying your request, Eugene. Maybe this will be helpful. I  googled the words “Space Shuttle Columbia tether UFOs” and came up with pages worth of relevant links. Let us know if you find the verification you're looking for, will you?

I've been trying to get the nasa page on STS-75 to load with no avail.  From what I've gathered, they claim it was ice particle activity?  I'm not to familiar with the physics of that so I can't really say either way.

I did find an interesting article on the camera artifacts present in the shot.  For one, the tether is only a couple centimeters thick.  The thickness you see in the shot is a very big distortion.  Also when they zoomed into the flying dots and they were hollow spheres.  The hollow center is also apparently a common distortion of likely cameras used.  It can go either way in my POV.  There is alot of reasonable information to back up both views.

http://www.rense.com/general/stsd.htm

Re: UFOs

Hi Juliee, Michael, Eugene and all.

You got me thinking again about the extent to which we are still trapped in vestiges of the consensus world-view - everyone of us emotionally clinging hard to a pre-fabricated world order, which, in more lucid moments, we cognitively recognize as completely false, illusory, clearly made-up. The denial on the emotional, visceral levels of being is massive and creates its own thick layer of co-created reality, like barriers between us and the less gross realms.

And why is penetrating this collective 'numbness', this energetic shield against multidimensional awareness, so important? I ask myself this freshly today. Why do I feel it is imperative for humans to allow themselves a more open-ended contemplation of subtle realms and their inhabitants at this time? I feel an urgency here. It sure feels like more than just human or planetary survival depends on allowing this particular shift.

I also sense that I somehow want to make myself useful in the area of cushioning the blows, softening the shocks that are coming down the pike… letting people know that it's okay to have our understanding of the world and our entire history shattered. And not once, but in a series of shocks that'll sweep away useless, man-made debris and open up our view to a much more ***alive*** and rich and intricate, though still relative consensus reality. I'm not talking about nondual immersion here; this is just about being able to function effectively in a vastly expanded, interconnected, yet still dualistically experienced reality.

 m

Re: UFOs

Hi Mascha,

>> again about the extent to which we are still trapped in vestiges of the consensus world-view

Thank you for the reminder!

Nyneve

Re: UFOs

Hi there, Larissa - Nyneve,

thank you for chiming in so chipperly (if that's a word). But now I'm curious. Anything you'd like to say about UFOs and how you would deal with it if some of the purported E.T. visitors are as real and influential as the most credible witnesses in that already fairly illustrious roster we've got so far say?

Friendly waves across the ocean and a smooth slide into the new year!

m

Re: UFOs

Hi Mascha,

I am afraid I will not say anything as interesting as you guys have been saying on this topic. Simply, I have nothing to say on the subject itself.

I chimed in because of what you said about being “trapped in vestiges of the consensus world-view”. I can relate to that. But as for UFOs, ETs - I was not into that, meaning I did not follow the discussions - not here - but in general. I did not think about and make that decision consciously, it sort of happened: UFO appears to me to be a complicated discussion that would require investigations, study, etc. I guess I was not interested enough, or had other things occupying me… Or was influenced by the “image” that only lunatics talk about UFOs, but if there is anything substantial then it would require being a specialist and access to special information or at least a personal encounter.

All in all - this was not my most burning problem. :-) Still is not. Maybe I am not aware of the seriousness of this subject… I might look more into this thread, I was already thinking if I should check out the sources and books mentioned. But again, I have so many books on my list already which for me are more important now, and there are other things to do… But then again, I find myself following this thread and exploring it bit by bit, so one never knows… I will see how this will develop and what comes up.

And last thing. A bit of a personal story, I mentioned part of it on Bill's thread about the Moon and Mars conjunction.
When I was a child I spent hours on the roof of our house watching the stars, dreaming about  ETs.  I  loved SiFi books on space travel and read anything I could find. I “studied” astronomy - well basics - when I was 11-12. By 13 I decided that I will be an astro physicist and made a plan how I will achieve that. And I even implemented the first step: at 14 I applied and was admitted to a technical school in the nearest big city - I lived in a tiny village in Ukraine - where I believed I will strengthen my math and physics so that I could pass the exams to the University. But that was also the end of that dream. For a number of reasons I could not study in that school and I returned back home in a few months.

But maybe this longing for stars, for space travel, this wish for meeting ETs was in fact mistaken for the other longing – for “spiritual” travel (for lack of a better name)? And I got to that a few years ago and hope to be making some progress, if slowly. And in this respect what you said resonated with me in that I feel and see clearly me being “trapped” and although I make consistent efforts to do something about it, I am not there and it once in a while “frustrates” me. I was glad to be reminded again, i.e. to remember - with your help - again.

Larissa

Re: UFOs

Mascha dear,

I big Aiiieeeyyyaaahhh! to all of that!  Now where's my damn seeds button… ? 

Mascha:  “And why is penetrating this collective 'numbness', this energetic shield against multidimensional awareness, so important? I ask myself this freshly today. Why do I feel it is imperative for humans to allow themselves a more open-ended contemplation of subtle realms and their inhabitants at this time? I feel an urgency here. It sure feels like more than just human or planetary survival depends on allowing this particular shift.”

I feel this “urgency” too.  I imagine that many of us do.  When feeling urgent, I am inclined to take action even if it is not in the direction of my urgency.  Let's say that I am feeling urgent about the self-doubt that arises when I think about the whole ET thing for instance.  You know, that “not knowing feeling?”  About something that is both mysterious and evident? 

The best I can do today as I feel the play of consciousness across the globe coming to me through my doors or the web, is be amazed at the beauty coming off these pages or out the window when my attention is held there, or hang in there with the self-doubt that arises when the pictures are not so pretty.  I mean, ET's are cool with their flight suits, but what if they're all just pretending to be so agreeable and discrete?  Ah, now there is an exterior source for self-doubt that will take a bit of work.

One thing we seem to know for sure is that ego densifies things.  “Dense” but subtle “things,” like the egomaniacal psyche - full of pride-of-knowedge, concoctions, artifice, and sham, are susceptible to profound change if significant subtle-field changes come to characterize our passage across the galactic equator.  There may be changes in the gross realm as well - already are if you consider global warming and the profoundly increasing rate of innovation as markers. 

How can we be present, open-mindedly communing with both the subtle and gross, while allowing (this takes lots of practice) the confusion of egoic density and all the shadow it contains to spill its guts out on the street in front of us as this time quickens to change?

Transparent we must become, enlightened, free of the congestions of egoic density - not the blessed ego though, for ego, as an attention-focusing tool only, provides us balance in the moment by allowing our curiosity to focus by bringing the lens of our perception to what it is we seek to imbibe or transclude.  Its just that so much has been attached to the ego - it has come to mean the self itself.  I contend that most of that self is a self-ish relationship with knowledge as stuff - a hoarded acquisition loaded with self-doubt.  Thus, the capability to focus, (ego) becomes identified with all the stuff it has focused on and stored as “fact,” lies, and habit.  What it is not focused on, as a consequence of carrying the burden of pride-of-knowledge, is the Source from which all arisen - the diviner of ego and beauty, which, curiously enough (heh heh) is ourselves if we are truly willing to take full responsibility for exactly where we are.  That, imo, is the present, and if the present is full of self-doubt, then stay right there and use the blessed ego to just penetrate right through it.

Our “densities” will unwind and the blessed emotions there confounded will unshadow and we will know them as if for the first time and, with help, they will alchemize to curiosity, choice, acceptance, tolerance, allowance, vulnerability, availability, intention and vision and surrender.  So doing, we will learn to live capable of manifesting the God-like gifts that are our true inheritance.

Ahem.

loving me loving you,
Michael

Re: UFOs

I'll give my 2 cents worth here too.

It makes no sense at all to even assume he posibility that our planet could be the only one sustaining intelligent life.  It makes much more sense (to me at least) to assume that Life created us - and that all the other life forms “out there” are manifestations of the endless potential that Life is.  In the end, all these manifestations are part of one and the same Life, living out different parts in one big play with the same direction: growing consciousness.

It makes sense to me that, once we've reached a certain level of awareness, we will start integrating more and more with different players in this game of Life…and of course the “powers that be” would not want to even contemplate that - it threatens their positions too much…

Frans

Re: UFOs

Wow, lot's of meaty stuff to sink more teeth into here.

First off, Eugene… Interesting link you gave. Unfortunately, I haven't the expertise to assess the merits of the article you found convincing enough to cast doubt on the Columbia shuttle footage. Well, at least the author didn't conclude we are looking at swamp gas. Just what are his qualifications as a space camera equipment expert, though? I still don't know.

Michael,

where to begin? When I serve up a light lunch, you come back with a six course set of entrées! Is it too much to ask for a brief explanation of what you mean by “crossing the galactic plane/ equator”? I honestly don't have a clue what that might entail.

Down-to-earth, practical Hausfrau type here,

m
 

Re: UFOs

Dear M,

So sorry, thought that you might know.  2012, the year, is the approximate time when our part of the galaxy (our solar system and sun in particular) will drift across the equatorial plane of the galaxy.  It is as if you were standing near the equator of the earth and slowly inched your way across it.  This coming time, 2012, has been predicted by several disparate mytho-archaic traditions, as THE time for the come-uppance of man or the transition from the iron age into the golden age (cue the “, , , peace will guide the planets and love will rule the stars.”)  No one knows for sure what all might happen during this time.  Clearly, things are happening - the “urgency” thing for instance, and the rate of innovation, and whatever the hell is up with this “global warming” piece, and what is up with the burgeoning of awareness shared by so many across the planet.

This equatorial crossing pulls us into the galactic zone that, like our own equator here on earth, is characterized by a fairly sharp transition between the direction that vortices circulate in the electromagnetosphere.  Simply, what may happen is that the positive and negative orientation of the poles may suddenly flip or switch.  This may cause the way that water spins in a toilet bowl to reverse direction.  It may also cause a difference in the way that tornados and cyclones, and hurricanes spin in each their separate hemispheres.  These are potential gross level manifestations of what might change.  However, the electro-magneto-gravitational arena is relatively far more subtle and the really profound and noticeable  changes may occur in the subtle, like the psyche.  Ok?  Basic consensus concepts that are dense with shaky rationalizations, like “time” for instance, may just fall away as we encounter a more higly evolved sense of what time really is.  Another is the notion of what the ego is.  If we are densely aligned with the ego as a marker of “self” and we are deeply attached to achievement and wealth as represented by knowledge and a bunch of constructs, these dense, “spiritual” materials, may not survive no matter how strongly we are attached to them.  Such attachments might be sundered in the blast of the new.  This could be extraordinarily painful and fearful if we haven't “got into the program” before the crunch is on.  Imo, the “crunch” is on, like you say, and the program is to let go of anything that will not fit through the “eye of the needle” which is to say that spiritual “achievements” and knowledge not incorporated into capability, are not going to help.  To be free in the moment is to live “capable” in the flow, responding spontaneously and correctly out of intuition, emotional maturity, and faith, than deductively and empirically from the captain's chair of self.

Hmmmm … there is more but I am out of time for the moment.

big love,
Michael

Re: UFOs

>>First off, Eugene… Interesting link you gave. Unfortunately, I haven't the expertise to assess the merits of the article you found convincing enough to cast doubt on the Columbia shuttle footage. Well, at least the author didn't conclude we are looking at swamp gas. Just what are his qualifications as a space camera equipment expert, though? I still don't know.

Hey Mascha,

    That's true, the site doesn't exactly strike me as credible.  Not to say that it isn't, just doesn't seem “professional.  The explanations given just seem like  reasonable possibilities.  The hypthosis of the article was we don't really know because not enough information has been released.  I don't mean to rain on anyones sense of awe.  I personally believe in extra terrestrials.  It makes sense to me on a statistical and intuitive level and I've experienced a UFO sighting in Mexico( have I mentioned that already? ).  I just like to take sightings on a case by case level.

On a sidenote:  Are you Russian Mascha?

Re: UFOs

So I rushed home from a little Saturday night gathering with friends to get back to you who are contributing to this thread. Cuz this is rich – so many flavors being added just today, in one afternoon.

And where is Balder? I'm secretly hoping you'll also come back to add more of what you've gathered about these phenomena so far.

Frans and Larissa, you bring what I'm asking, hoping, longing for – the attitude of open-minded eagerness to be shown more of what is out there and in here than conventional wisdom would allow.

Eugene, I loved the whole tenor of your post. For me too, the interest in E.T.s is a matter of having had one undeniable sighting (a very large cigar-shaped craft seen in broad daylight in India with a group of about 25 people from various nations - all of them certifiably sane :) After that, my intuition led to various research projects over the years which have me, at this point, convinced that what I saw that day as a teen was not man-made for a number of reasons – one being that the sudden flight acceleration of that utterly silent, otherworldly silver marvel would have killed a human pilot instantly.

Michael, you've probably gone further in your explorations than anyone of us here. I'm still feeling my way into what you said in your last several posts. So far, I've studiously avoided the New Age, 2012, Mayan calendar branch of this wild and woolly UFO tree. But I'm open to it now that you're bringing this aspect to the table.

m

Re: UFOs

“What do you think of this topic?  Is it a modern mythology, a technological twist on the same prerational, magical/mythic forms of thinking that have given us gods and goblins throughout the ages?  Or is there something to it - something that defies reduction to naïve cultural projections? ”

I wouldn't say it's magical thinking, but it is a culturally defined way of expressing oneself. We can see that as the themes of what a UFO is, their relations to either the government or aliens, and what aliens might look like; these are translated into popular culture and what people report over time has changed to coencide with these wider cultural changes.
But, that begs the question, what is the stress factor or cause of UFO's in the first place? We could say that they are true to their names and are, in fact, unidentified objects. The mind will fill in the blanks of the unknown, and it will do so in culturally relavent and acceptable ways. People see shit that they can't explain, while other people make shit up. There could be aliens. It could be all three.
It isn't nice to say, but people lie, and we most often lie to ourselves. It is when we are really honest with ourselves, that we are able to share our humanity and that which connects all of us. It is in our own brutle honesty that we can better understand the common elements of all of our personal and collective narratives. It is at this point that people will tell you to get out of their heads, as if their mental images are actually personal and private.
If ya'll knew just how easily you were the products conscious and unconscious manipulation, getting out of bed in the mornings wouldn't seem like such a good idea.
(kind of getting off the subject, but it needed to be said)

Here we see one more example where Integral theory suffers for a lack of a culture theory. People of various stages of development will find different slices of their wider cultures more relavent for explanation and stereotype than others, but these mental images have nothing to do with the actual memes themselves. God and angels aren't automatic or indigenous mental forms to a blue meme, after all what is a blue meme?

Is: “but was of course only an optical illusion – which resulted in a worldspread wave of fear being injected into the populations of the world, leading inexorably, to eventually to a (secret) war on a global scale which benefits an ultra secret group of few very powerful men controlling everything, and especially YOU, and your family and your bank account … but it is possible.

This is all supported by modern quantum science of course. The evidence for this is simply astounding.”

That's good shit! Thanx for making me laugh. I'm gonna use that one in the future.

ichun

Re: UFOs

Michael: “This coming time, 2012, has been predicted by several disparate mytho-archaic traditions, as THE time for the come-uppance of man or the transition from the iron age into the golden age (cue the “, , , peace will guide the planets and love will rule the stars.”) ”

Really? Which ones? It seems strange that archaic traditions would use a time reference that is both European and Christian.
Can you point me toward your source material, because this sounds made up, thanx.
P.S. I'm not saying that your making anything up.

Re: UFOs

Holden,

Michael: “This coming time, 2012, has been predicted by several disparate mytho-archaic traditions, as THE time for the come-uppance of man or the transition from the iron age into the golden age (cue the “, , , peace will guide the planets and love will rule the stars.”) ”

Holden:  Really? Which ones? It seems strange that archaic traditions would use a time reference that is both European and Christian.
Can you point me toward your source material, because this sounds made up, thanx.
P.S. I'm not saying that your making anything up.

Hmmm … source materials?  If you can accept that I usually come from an “it seems to me” approach to life and that “it seems to me” is loaded with an accumulating pile of references that stretches back some 60 years into the corners and alleyways of my life,  IF, you can accept that I am not expecting that you believe me, or take anything that I might have to say on trust or faith or any other unspoken bargain, then I will try to unpack, in a general way, the sources of my current operating conclusion about what surrounds the notion of profound change in the zeitgeist, that is nominally occurring right now and is claimed by some to peak in 2012.  Ok?

First there is the Mayan Calendar, a 5K yr old instrument of deep time coordination that “predicts” or announces its own “end” on 12/21/12.  There are many books written about this that cover the range from fanciful, to bullshit, to high-end scholarship.  The high-end, presented by John Major Jenkins and others in several relevant works, has been vindicated by strict astronomical expertise to be virtually accurate in that the Mayan “timing” is near spot on with recent sophisticated observtions of the celestial parade.  The Mayan “timing” does seem to coincide with both the 26K yr cycle of the earth's axial wobble factor and the point in time when the solar system crosses the galactic equator as it fluxes back and forth above and below this relatively precise plane. 

This Mayan perspective is corroborated by Incan mythology about a time (now) according to Incan shamans, when the potentials inherent in man will manifest in a transformation of homeo sapiens into the “illuminated” version of homo sapiens - (can't remember the term the shamans use for it right now)

Western mythology along the (very broadly defined) Christian lines includes Judaeo/Christian and Egyptian/pre-Hellenic Greek storylines.  Though derivative of Vedic/Hindu roots, this western tradition includes a “masonic” factor about the secret nature of “time” that has been carried primarily in esoterica from the Egyptian root.

Essentially, it seems that the Western “connection” includes both the overt, Apocalyptic/Armageddon Judgment Day tangle with Kabbalistic, Hermetic, Masonic lines.  Together, they comprise a daunting tangle of the mythic, the archaic, the esoteric, and the akashic lines.  Overall, it is a vexacious bunch of stuff.  Nevertheless, out of this tangle comes a few very consistent threads - something about time is not what it seems to be, and, in both the western and amerind traditions, there is this notion about a “judgment day” kind of “moment” when mankind will take some form of relatively immediate evolutionary step.

Though “western” mythology is derivative of the Vedic/Hindu line (imo) the Vedic/Hindu line came first.  Some suppose that the migration of humans across the Bering Strait some 30K years ago was originated in the Himalayas and connected that way to the origins of the Vedic line.  Thus, from the perspective of oral tradition, it is possible that all of these lines share some of the same roots in time and that they did not necessarily develop by themselves in isolation.  Considering that, it is possible that the whole architecture of the mytho-archaic is somehow derivative of a single source which would complicate the authenticity of it as it may have been bogus to begin with.  But more on that later.

Even assuming that all of these disparate lines had a single source, the Mayan prediction about the timing of the wobble and the galactic equator are so friggin' accurate as to bugger the imagination as to how they pulled it off.  One thing is downright clear:  either they knew something that had been carried forth from deep time (or was handed to them via ET sources) or they observed their way to it as a result of not being so friggin' distracted from it by all the modern claptrap that we have currently do deal with.  Either way, they (the Mayans) virtualy nailed the timing using only observation and crude (by our standards) instruments that have only lately been verified by our more “sophisticated” obsevational and calculation tools.  What this suggests is that they were not only prescient in observation of the heavens, they had to be just as observant about the flow of changes on the human and planetary cycle levels.  This same observational expertise has been a part of the human experience overall and validates, imo, the utility of astrology as a psychological science based solely on the “as above, so below” discipline.

The astrological perspective is the most contentious to deal with and I will not attempt to wind it into this overview except to say that astrologers generally, have been pointing to this “change in the ages” piece for some time and many have pointed to this “alignment” event as the entre to the age of Aquarius and so on.

Going back to the synchronous nature of these disparate lines, one western source is hard to dismiss from legitimate conjecture.  That is the Masonic tradition which, fully unpacked, carries a profound message about “sacred” geometry, the nature of time, and the sudden, domaine change that “consciousness” in humans is both capable of and imminent.

To wit, “The Cross of Hendaye” and the unpacking of its symbology by a guy named Fulcanelli.  Fulcanelli wrote a treatise about time and other things from the “alchemical” perspective back in the middle '20's of the last century.  The book just “appeared” in stores in France and then, just later, another edition appeared that detailed Fulcanelli's (a pseudonym as the guy was downright mysterious) contemplations on the Cross of Hendaye.

I will leave it to you to do your own reading on these matters, and come to your own conclusions, but one thing is sure for me:  despite my healthy doubts and skepticism about all of this stuff, my plausibility-oriented shit detector says cleary to me that, one way or the other, we are in for quite a ride.

best,
Michael

Re: UFOs

I see. It sounded like you might have gotten that from a researcher or book, I didn't know it was you that connected these dots.

“I will leave it to you to do your own reading on these matters, and come to your own conclusions, but one thing is sure for me:  despite my healthy doubts and skepticism about all of this stuff, my plausibility-oriented shit detector says cleary to me that, one way or the other, we are in for quite a ride.”

So more of the same then? Cool.

ichun

Re: UFOs

hmmmm, … less of the same and more of the new seems like the path to me.

Re: UFOs

One more thing that I think is pertinent to this piece about the Western Judaeo/Christian/Masonic and Mayan lines of “future prediction” concerns the Cross of Hendaye.  This cross was designed and built in “the 1600's” which is to say that no one knows for sure when it first appeared.  Apparently, it stood in a graveyard for a couple hundred years and then was moved into a courtyard near non-descript buildings sometime in the 1800's.

What is interesting and pertinent is that whoever constructed the cross was privy to the “secrets of time.”  Bringing Nostradamus (the plagiarist) into the discussion, well, he was an alchemist and writer (or so claimed many) whose quatrains detailed a long sequence of events supposedly culminating in apocalyptic events that were/are to proceed the western notion of Judgment Day.

It is curious that the timing of Nostradamus's work came after Portugese and Spanish adventures into central and South America.  Presumably, the conquistadores encountered the Mayan calendar and its priestly class of scientist/shamans.  It is likely that this calendar knowledge returned to Europe with the Vatican's emmissaries who traveled to the new world.  Outside of Nostradamus's “predictions” which were largely “modified” from many other people's works, the only outstanding reference to deep time “calendars' is this Cross of Hendaye.

What is significant about the Cross of Hendaye, is that it uses symbology and time cycle references in its various carvings that connect directly to the Mayan Calendar's symbology.  In other words, it is as if the Cross of Hendaye was specifically constructed by a very knowledgeable Masonic adept (perhaps) as a testament or “imprimatur” that consciously establishes concurrence with the Western occult tradition about “time” and the change of the ages with the Mayan depictions of same.

What is suggested is that the Western tradition as represented by the secret accumulations of esoteric “knowledge” by the Knights Templar and as maintained by their associates the Masons, corresponded exactly with the Mayan tradition and that the Cross of Hendaye was built to honor this concurrence.  Thus, the two streams of “time consciousness” which bifurcated from the Himalayas some 30-40K years ago- one going north and east across the Bering Strait, the other going south and west through old Europe and into Egypt came back together in this graveyard in the Basque region of Southern France at the hand of an unknown but deeply heads-up Mason.

Particularly irritating in this time of global political hoo-doo-ism is the undeniable fact that the Vatican has known about this for at least 400 years and never once alluded to it except to de facto promote the fear-oriented apocalyptic-judgment-day terror campaign we see playing itself out worldwide.  Hmmm …

best,
Michael