What do you do for ILP?

I've been taking Ken's suggestions for ILP pretty seriously and I'm curious what other people are doing for ILP practices. Do you think it's important for your life? Do you wish you were doing more or think you should be but have been unable to for one reason or another? Which practices are you doing? I'm feeling inspired to meditate rigorously after reading One Taste. Here are some excerpts from One Taste, and an interview about One Taste, to set the context.

One Taste
p. 129 - Wednesday, June 18

            ….anybody can put together their own integral practice. The idea is to simultaneously exercise all the major levels and dimensions of the human bodymind-physical, emotional, mental, social, cultural, spiritual. To give several examples, going around the quadrants, we have the following levels and capacities, with some representative practices from each:

UPPER RIGHT QUADRANT

(INDIVIDUAL, OBJECTIVE, BEHAVIORAL)

Physical

DIET: vitamins, hormones, Pritikin, Ornish, Atkins

STRUCTURAL: weightlifting, aerobics, hiking, Rolfing, etc.

Neurological

PHARMACOLOGICAL: various medications/drugs where appropriate

BRAIN/MIND MACHINES: to help induce theta and delta states of consciousness

UPPER LEFT QUADRANT

(INDIVIDUAL, SUBJECTIVE, INTENTIONAL)

Emotional

BREATH: t'ai chi, yoga, bioenergetics, circulation of prana or feeling energy, qi jong

SEX: tantric sexual communion, self-transcending whole-bodied sexuality

Mental

THERAPY: psychotherapy, cognitive therapy, shadow work

VISION: adopting a conscious philosophy of life, visualization, affirmations

Spiritual

PSYCHIC: (shaman/yogi): shamanic, nature mysticism, beginning tantric

SUBTLE(saint): deity yoga, yidam, contemplative prayer, advanced tantric

CAUSAL(sage): vipassana, self-inquiry, bare attention, witnessing

NONDUAL(siddha): Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Shaivism, Zen, etc

The general idea of integral practice is clear enough: Pick a basic practice from each category, or from as many categories as pragmatically possible, and practice them concurrently-“all-level, all-quadrant.” The more categories engaged, the more effective they all become (because they are intimately related as aspect of your own being). Practice them diligently, and coordinate your integral efforts to unfold in Emptiness, and the entire journey is a misty memory from a trip that never even occurred.
 

p. 281 Tuesday, November 11

The whole point of authentic contemplation is simply to accelerate the growth, development, or evolution from the subconscious to the superconscious dimensions of your own Being. We now have abundant evidence that meditation does not alter or change the basic stages of development of consciousness, but it does remarkably accelerate that development. Meditation speeds up evolution. It accelerates the remembering and the re-discovery of the Spirit that you eternally are. Meditation quickens the rate that acorns grow into oaks, that humans grow into God.

Shambhala interview with Ken

“For spiritual development, I have always been a strong advocate of meditation, in any of its numerous forms. Thus, the second major point I wanted to get across in One Taste is the importance of meditation as part of an integral practice.”

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Eddie

Thanks for starting this subject; I'd be interested to hear what people have to say to the questions you ask.

My initial, quick answer (as I was saying to you in the Temple Cafe yesterday) is that discipline is not my strong point, certainly not in the sense of meticulously planning what practices I do each day, what I do twice a week, etc. in the sense of a rigorous, scheduled ILP practice.  When I've tried to do that usually after a while the whole house of cards collapses, followed by a period of chaos, then I might try to bring some disciplined practices into play again.

What has worked better for me is to hold the idea of an ILP in mind and heart, and to proceed by sensing where I need to put more energy and work at a particular time - e.g. if I realize my diet has been going to hell, I need to put more effort into that; or I may realize that I haven't been socializing enough, haven't been working with or serving my relationships and community enough.  Etc. 

As for mediation specifically, I agree that it is important, but I've also heard Ken say that if people aren't meditation, they should try spending literally ONE MINUTE per day, every day, meditating; and I've heard him talk about meditation as being more than the practice of staring at a wall or counting breaths.  In response to a woman who “confessed” to him that she didn't meditate, he said among other things that to set aside a period of time to listen to music with your full awareness would be a form of meditation.  Currently Liz, my stepson and I are studying Aikido, which has been called “moving zen” and certainly contains elements of meditation, at least as we've been taught it. 

So the situation may be more complex, subtle and nuanced than first meets the “I”…

spiral out,
arthur

Re: What do you do for ILP?

When I was talking to Ken about a nameless dread I sometimes experience (although hardly ever lately, interstingly) he asked me what meditative practice I do:

~~~

Ken: A couple of things. One is - and it also just depends on whether you're working with a teacher or a therapeutic pal or whether you're kind of doing it on your own - but the standard rule for any of these negative feelings is to first give awareness to the resistance to feeling the negative feeling, and then give attention to the feeling. So if it is that you might start by just - do you have a meditation practice? Let me ask that first.

Arthur: Um… [nervous, self-deprecating laughter]

Ken: That's OK! I mean, just…

Arthur: Sometimes, yeah, I…it's something that sort of comes and goes. Lately what I've been doing is some counting breath meditation when I go to bed and when I wake up in the morning.

Ken: OK.

Arthur: But at various times, like I've done Vipassana for periods of time and I've done…

Ken: So you did do Vipassana?

Arthur: Yeah, I've done a couple of 10-day retreats and I've…

Ken: OK, well that's good because I think in this regard, in any event, I pretty strongly agree with the Nyingmapas that in the nine jnana system, the nine vehicle system, or the nine levels of practice or stages of practice, that the foundational one is really Vipassana/Shamatha, because it's just such a fundamental practice of training the mind; and you really do have to be able to concentrate, you have to be able to reach what's called “access concentration,” which more-or-less means being able to keep your mind on an object for 5 minutes without totally losing it. And so counting breaths is certainly one way to develop that, and if you've also done ten-day retreats in Vipassana then you've trained the capacity for simple awareness and that's a really foundational practice.

~~~

heehee - I felt pretty intimidated initially by the BBG himself asking what I do for meditation…

There's a lot of good stuff about shadow work, a very important part of an ILP, in that conversation.  Here's a link to the rest of the transcript.

cheers
arthur

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Here's another slant on meditation, from the Robert Augustus Masters thread:

Robert Augustus Masters on Meditation:

In a Q&A session with Robert Augustus Masters a while back (in another forum) Rhonda/Feral asked, “Talk to me about meditation. Why would I want to do it? How do you find a practice that is right for you?”  Here is his response:

~~~~~

Let’s start by saying that meditation is the art and practice of being aware of what’s happening as it’s happening, while taking into account that this is a deceptively simple statement, given that “what’s happening” is not necessarily what it appears to be. What follows fleshes this out. As you read it, I suggest that you soften your belly, and remain aware of the arising and passing of each breath; when your attention drifts away, simply return it to your breath, noting, if possible, to what your attention was pulled.

Meditation simultaneously roots and wings us, helping us to abide in and as Being, while enhancing our ability to take care of the business of daily life (if only through keeping us present). Nothing could be more practical than meditation.

In the beginning, meditation is a practice of the self. Later, meditation is a practice that renders transparent the self. And still later, meditation is a practice that opens us until we are but openness itself, embodying what is obviously more real than the self.

That is, in the beginning, we meditate; later, we allow meditation; and still later, we are meditated. This makes sense not to the rational mind, but to that which cannot help but be aware of the rational mind. Meditation radically decentralizes egoity.

That is, meditation undoes, unravels, renders ever more transparent, the very self that seeks and attempts to meditate. That self, that knot of subjectivity velcro’ed to spiritual ambition, views meditation as a remedy or as a means to an end, but meditation – if entered into with sufficient commitment – undresses and unseats that self, cutting through its reign of us, leaving in its wake what we’ve been all along.

(Are you still aware of breathing?)

When we allow ourselves to be centered not by our separative selfhood and its self-obsessed subjectivity, but rather by Being, meditation finds its true depth, the vast dimensionless presence of which unmasks, uproots, and ultimately dissolves our mistaken case of identity.

Meditation includes the overlapping practices of (1) making space – transconceptual space – for whatever arises; (2) remaining present; (3) witnessing whatever is arising, externally and internally, without dissociating from it; and (4) awakening to the real nature of all that is.

Meditation is all of these and more, existing at essence as the practice-path of being centered not by self, but by innate awareness.

Meditation is the practice of awaring.

As such, it makes equal room for happiness and unhappiness, simultaneously opening us to deep insight, the moment-to-moment feel of a soapy dish, and the subtle agendas hovering so very near to our next thought. Meditation makes conscious space – a true living room – for the high and the low, the gorgeous and the repulsive, the fascinating and the tedious, shining the heartlamp of intrinsic awareness equally on all.

Meditation is not about feeling a certain way, nor about being in a certain state, nor about having certain experiences, but rather is about remaining awake in the midst of whatever is happening.

Meditation requires no props, robes, or equipment. It is not limited to a particular format or posture; one can be still, one can be moving, one can be quiet, one can be chanting or praying or crying. Whatever works. It's good to stay with a practice that works for you, but not to stay with it too long.

(How does your breathing feel?)

And don't make meditative practice special or “above” the rest of your life. It's more useful to awaringly wash dishes than to squat on a meditation cushion trying to reach some exalted state. The good news is that meditation works; the bad news, at least for our egoity, is that the spiritual deepening central to meditation is not always going to make us feel good.

Meditation is not about getting somewhere. In meditation, we move not from here to there, but from here to here – and from now to now – allowing ourselves to be awakened and homed by all things.

To be thus awakened and homed is to be grateful for all that has brought where we are. Meditation devoid of gratitude is not really meditation, but only spiritualized dissociation. Gratitude itself can be a deeply liberating practice. As awareness and love become more and more indistinguishable, we begin to truly live, regardless of our circumstances.

We don’t do meditation, but without us there is no meditation. May we take the practice of awaring to heart, daring to let it immerse us in – and reveal to us – the full Truth of what we cannot help but be.

******************

And how to find a practice that is right for you? Trust your intuition.

Here’s a user-friendly practice to try:

Sit comfortably, with loose jaw and belly, eyes closed or almost closed, and count outloud your breaths on the exhale, starting with 1; when you’ve reached 5, start at 1 again. Do this for a few rounds, then make the counting silent. Do this for a minute or two, then bring some awareness to your belly, noticing how it moves with each breath, rising/expanding on the inhale, and settling/falling back on the exhale. So as you inhale, notice your belly rising, and as you exhale, count and notice your belly falling back. If you forget where you are in the counting, simply start at 1 again. Do not interfere with whatever thoughts are arising in your mind; let them be. Do this for a minimum of 10 minutes.

- Robert Augustus Masters

~~~~~

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Yeah, I take the practicum very seriously, too. I tend to meditate 1-2 hrs per day (Vipassana/Mahamudra) morning and evening, do 30 minutes-3 hours of hatha yoga (thats asana, pranayama and various kriyas), do free weights, cycle, swim and sauna…I do not smoke or drink alcahol (though went on a spate of doing so for 6 months recently and enjoyed the experience immensely; I'm visceral like that) and recently detoxed from caffeine in a gut-spasming foetal writhe that lasted 72 hours…

I 1-2-3 God it in the car driving 40 miles to work…listen to Integral Naked through my iPod…read at least 20 pages of  something useful every day…actively parent my son…work as a broad-spectrum psychotherapist…teach yoga (BWY registered)…have my own relational psychotherapy…nurture the local Integral Salon…try out one new thing a week…dream diarise…aim for one Vajrayana puja per week…

I tithe my income to sensible charities…recycle most stuff…am almost plastic bag free…eat vegetarian  food that is mostly organic and let my hair down in the zaadz QAR section which I spend 25 mins on per day…

It has taken me 24 years to get to a place where I do most of this every day (meditation a must)….sometimes, in the words of Orion Mountain Dreamer, I get up weary and bruised to the bone and still do this….because I live like an empress.

Reading this through I realise that I may sound narcissistic in this catalogue of sensibility…so be it…I would want to urge everybody to practice assiduously in this way…because death is the most definite thing that is ever going to happen to you and the only thing you can take with you upon exit from planet earth this time around are the samskaras…and I fully intend to carry forth into the next incarnation carrying those of discipline, perseverence and Right Action…and hopefully not get sandbagged with 25 years of serious intrapsychic damage, drug abuse and emotional manipulation as I allowed myself to be this time around…not that I mind the pain, ye ken, all sadhana has the mild tractional discomfort if it is to be an effective stage/structure double-vector catapult…but I would like to begin the next adult life from a higher altitude…

Ken Wilber taught me this right from the first edition of The Atman Project which I read in 1983…I have done a cha-cha up the path ever since.

Hope this proves to be of use. Like Ken sez; get into integralism or not…but take up meditation.

J x

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Tantricksta,
Impressive. I share your enthusiasm for ILP as well. We have a lot in common in here. Although only months old for me, I see this as a life path. I was doing weekly psychotherapy for about 5 years and now after feeling much better, and the therapist is over an hour away, I've focused on other components. Of course, as feelings come up I stay and work through them but lately I've been wanting to find someone new and local to work with, perhaps on my apprehension for being with groups of people, feeling scared still of not being liked; could be some cognitive script work; not sure.

The mahamudra meditation is perhaps the biggest thing for me lately, since August, and it has really taken off. I'm careful not to clock time, but it averages about 90 minutes/day. My best is usually the 45-min meditation in the morning. What made the difference for me here is finding a good meditation teacher from the Kagyu lineage (student of the late Kalu Rinpoche). The preparation for death stuff comes into play for me too, really amazing (from the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying)

I'm really big on nutrition and eating organically. I read somewhere that the Romans were more concerned about what they put in their bodies than who they had sex with. For some reason it's inverted for us, though of course with AIDS, I can understand a bit of that perspective. The point is that Westerners, I can at least speak for Americans, seem to have forgotten how intrinsic good food is to our well being.

I've been weightlifting almost my whole adult life, am off of caffeine, though yesterday I did have a decaf cappuccino. I'm off alcohol too but again, because I was at a dinner last night where there was a $300 bottle of bourdeaux, I did partake a bit.

I too am concerned about this coming off as narcissistic or a 'look what I do' kind of attitude. But there it is. Thanks very much for your post. I'm happy to see others take this really seriously.
Eddie

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Wonderful stuff here Masters. Thanks for sharing this Arthur. I'll read this again and again.
Eddie

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Great thread Eddie.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Eddie,

I really warm to yr honesty…yeah personally I tend to plaster over the cracks so let me say that i have only recently gotten back into hours of daily sitting having sprained my ankle in August… and being unable to assume a half-lotus I was able to tell myself that I could not meditate because  sitting in an upright  “pharoah” position was not grounded enough for me…I was sometimes aware of the obvious BS I was giving myself here and sometimes not…it would have been more honest to tell myself that I wished to succumb to laziness….

This dishonesty hides a highly punitive inner critic who is set up to conceal some very primal stuff on early abandonment…my mother hovered between life and death for the first week of my birth and my father was not on the scene and I was left alone a lot in the first week of my life…primal work has allowed me to access my unexpressed emotions around this which have led to a good deal of convulsing and vomiting with an inner experience so painful I cannot use neocortical cognition or Witness to override the fusebreaker mechanism which turns terror into cognitive lack of self-worth via the punitive critic…but this work is not resolvable in a single, or even ten sessions if the damage is deep…takes many years, as I guess you know Eddie…so the whole mechanism often threatens to scupper my sadhana/ILP unless I screw my courage to the sticking place and get on with it day by day…and sometimes I do get scuppered but the work i have done in the more upper-fulcrum rule/role mind realm has enabled me to ignore this critic most of the time so I don't have to please him by proving what a worthless, lazy being I am…

Actually, I am thinking that a thread on the developmental heirarchy of defenses would not come amiss in future…xmas project beckons,,,out wiv the ole Vaillant then… (that's George Vaillant's Wisdom of the Ego…cracking read…)..

Anyway, there's the anatomy of my personal sabotage for you…if I could rescript Good Will Hunting, I would have Matt Damon weeping in Robin Williams' arms a good dozen times punctuated with relapse upon relapse, with a centre of gravity migrating upspiral taking him out of streetfights, then alcohol excesses etc…rather than the sanitised Hollywod version of salvation-in-a-single-cathart….

I would appreciate others of the integral sangha sharing their own sabotage mechanisms because it may bring to light just how uniquely creative we all are in these matters…as well as shedding light on the universal mechanisms of this complex mishmash of stuff we call the shadow…howzabout it folks?

Echoing Pelle…great posting Eddie…and wonderful RAM insert Arthur…Jon x

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi, Eddie,

Thanks for starting this thread; I like reading about what others are doing.  It's inspiring, and also helps me become aware of areas I'm neglecting in my own practice.

I've been quite busy lately since I started a second job in October, which has been demanding a lot of time that I otherwise had available for family and “practice” time, so an honest answer at the moment (the state of my life for the past couple months) is that my practice-time is quite thin.  I am still doing regular Diamond Approach work (weekly sessions with a teacher) and meditating several times a week, but my physical exercise time (already weak) has taken a real hit recently.  I moderate a couple pods, but they have been very quiet lately and I haven't had the time or energy to do the work necessary to revive them, so my “volunteer” time has been almost nil.  But it's okay – I'm still finding my balance as I get used to my  “night job” and I'm sure I'll find a suitable routine in this new schedule before long.

For the past few years, here is what my ILP has consisted of:

UPPER RIGHT:

Diet:  Vegetarian.

Structural:  Walking, Kum Nye yoga.

UPPER LEFT:

Emotional/breath:  9 breaths of purification (from Tibetan Bon tradition)

Mental/Therapy:  Diamond Approach

Mental/Vision:  Studying Integral Theory and the Time-Space-Knowledge vision (TSK)
Spiritual/Subtle:  Guruyoga (Tibetan Bon tradition)
Spiritual/Causal:  TSK inquiry

Spiritual/Nondual:  I've studied Dzogchen for a number of years with several masters, and TSK is also nondual, but I do not feel my current level of practice is really at the nondual level.

On the Lower Left side, I've been serving as cultivator/moderator of several forums, but that has not been a very demanding or time-intensive practice so far.  I also teach classes informed by (and sometimes directly about) Integral Theory, and I regard this as a LL (community service) practice – communicating on a deep level with other individuals who are committed to self-transformation and social service or healing work.  It is a joy to inquire deeply with my students, and to have the opportunity to provide them with information and techniques which I hope will serve them on many levels in their own work and practice.

Warm wishes,

Balder

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Eddie

My ILP is

Yoga; weekly class, monthly workshops, teaching an after school class in my son's school to 11-12 year olds, due to start teaching a group of older (50+) women in the new year, daily (sort of) asanas & pranayama.

largely vegetarian

constant reading of integral/spiritual/psychological 'stuff'

participation on pods

daily (mostly) holosync meditation

teach a transition/life skills programme to 11-12 year olds on a voluntary basis in another local school

attempting to live in an aware way, paying attention to what I do/say and why and make shifts if necessary, or just be with the awareness

All of this is a natural part of my life. I'm in the process of looking at doing more shadow type work through psychotherapy/Gestalt therapy, this will mean creating more space in my day/week.

I also used to take salsa and belly dancing classes and the urge is upon me again to slide  some form of dance into my week - maybe I'll try tango Pelle, if I can persuade Ross to accompany me and find a local class.

I've become aware of a tendency to spiritual materialism (Chogyam Trungpa's book sitting here waiting to be read) so I'm consciously stepping back from my magpie-ish ways and looking to further deepen my yoga practice as this has been with me for 18 years, rather than skipping gaily down yet another path in search of 'The Path'!!!!!

Juliee

Re: What do you do for ILP?

My ILP has always been sort of amorphous. I struggle with structure and categorizing things sometimes, as well as having the usual issues of laziness and trauma to overcome, as everyone seems to. So even saying “this is my ILP” feels both filled with hubris and not a large enough idea to cover what I do with my life.

What I've come to realize about myself is that I have to sieze every moment of awareness that I can, and not beat myself up for what I can't. This is enormously complex, as all of you know. The critic and the lazy bum battle, distracting from the real work at hand. I've made some inroads, however.

The newest addition to my ILP is Aikido, as most of you know. This most integral of martial arts is an amazingly effective practice in every quadrant. It reaches into places that I never knew existed, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. While learning to do a forward roll, one of the most difficult things for newbies, I had an intense fear reaction that I later identified as having to do with falling forward off my bike when I was seven, breaking my front teeth. Aikido brings an awareness to me that nothing else has touched so quickly and efficiently. And it's brought the physical aspect to the fore, which is something I've srtruggled with my whole life. I just can NOT go to a gym and work our. It's too horribly boring. But going to the dojo feels so complete–a workout for all of me that leaves me deeply energized.

I would have to say that about every facet of my ILP. It's all been very organic evolution for me: something will bring added awareness, and I notice that and try to incorporate it into my life, which then positively affects the other lines and levels, etc. Parenting, living in community, academic work, all of these have become part of my ILP, simply because they work, and all have contributed to every quadrant in some way.

Other stuff: I've done some very deep work with Robert Masters, even though I haven't spent a great deal of time on it. Again, for me, it's what works. I'd rather spend one hour working with Robert than a year of any other therapy I've ever witnessed. This is not to say that he's the only way, just that it resonates with me very deeply. He's been my psychotherapeutic Aikido. I know a practice is working for me when I simultaneously crave and fear the work. Peeling back the layers is painful and freeing.

Diet I've also talked about at length before, so I'll just reiterate a bit. I find myself unable to eat a vegetarian diet and remain healthy, so I try to be as conscious as possible about my meat eating. I try to eat only humanely raised free-range meats, which are also much healthier for those who consume them. I follow the blood type “O” diet, which is something of an elaboration on the gluten- and casein-free diet that I'd already been following for years, helping me to lose 80 lbs. and going far in the direction of healing my gut. I try to keep sugar and all artificial ingredients out of my diet as well, but I'm not perfect about such things. I have experienced that that leads to a feeling of deprivation, and feel that moderation is the key. Knowing and caring for my body tends to take the pleasure out of behaving badly for very long.

I'd say that the part of my practice that lags has always been the spiritual. Again, the critic and the bum have a field day with this. But I've actually made some progress with this lately, and have gone into a phase of pretty much chopping wood and carrying water and not putting too much other distracting energy into worrying about it. Doing what is in front of me. Being present. Basic stuff. Lately, I'm mostly noticing how much my ego LOVES drama and revels in it, even while it tries to let go of it. It's that whole thing of: everything that gets you closer to transcending your ego scares it into reasserting itself very forcefully. Sheesh.

I see my greatest challenge at the moment to be balance and self-care. Taking care of the foundation so that what depends upon it can also thrive. What is self-care and what is selfish? What is transcending a boundary and what is collapsing it? These are very often things that women struggle with, and I find I'm fairly typical in that way. This is when it's great to have a relationship, romantic or otherwise, where you can trust the person completely to help be a mirror to you and work with your issues.

Liz

Re: What do you do for ILP?

OK this is a slight tangent, but I'm curious why people are listing vegetarianism an ILP practise…?

Re: What do you do for ILP?

I think what people mean by vegetarianism is that it's one conscious approach to the diet/nutrition aspect of an ILP. For many people dropping meat in itself gives them a tremendous boost in energy, and a better health, and sticking to that approach even though meat might taste great is then a conscious aspect of one's ILP.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Ewan

My 'largely vegetarian' is a conscious choice of what I know works for me, I feel healthier and more comfortable physically if I eat mostly fruit and veg. I do eat some meat and as with Liz I choose to eat organic/'happy animal'/non processed meat if I do eat it (the last one is no hardship as I hate sausages etc.). The one thing I haven't got a grip on is over eating of carbohydrates which can make me uncomfortable and very tired if I really go over the top!!!
I put this in the 'body' section of mind, body, spirit, shadow aspects of ILP.

Juliee

Re: What do you do for ILP?

My recourse to vegetarianism is due to

1.Physical reasons (UR)…my physical vehicle feels heavier and acts more lethargically if I eat fauna.

2. My meditation practice becomes similarly inertial (UL)

3. I would be robbing other sentient beings of the gift of life.(LL)

3. Creating a demand for meat increases land usage…the ratio of fodder-raising to cattle-raising is about 6:1 which is significant considering the rate of  global arable acreage attenuation. (UR)

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Liz

You're the second person this week to mention diet based on blood group do you have a reference where I could read more about it?

Juliee

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Juliee,

Re: What do you do for ILP?

OMG…another book…I think I need therapy…addicted to books!

Juliee
x

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi, Juliee- one of the reasons the blood type diet appeals to me logically is that i've noticed over the years that some people respond really well to, say, a vegetarian diet, while others seem to steadily decline if they don't eat meat. One person feels great on Atkins and another just feels like they're poisoning themselves? Why?

For me, it began when I put my son on the gluten- and casein-free diet and he changed literally overnight. Huge, huge eye-opener. Yet others with his same symptoms didn't imporve much, or not at all. A lot of different diets are now being used for kids with autism spectrum disorders, and no one diet works for all of them. Again, I see this as significant. As far as I know, the blood type diet is the only one that addresses these issues. However, I don't think it's a complete regimen yet at all. Some people do fine as vegetarians who are supposedly not going to do well, etc. I think perhps there is a gut-injury threshold past which some people go and others don't, and they're therefore ok on pretty much any decent healthy diet.

As for ILP, awareness and attention to what we put into our bodies is so important, and I think one of the mistakes that a lot of ascenders make (and even as women and more “feminine,” most of us who identify as integral are more “ascenders” than the general population) is that they either become the food police or they disregard the body as irrelevant or something to be transcended.

My own tendency is to get all evangelical over whatever my latest addition to my ILP is, and I have to guard against judgement and over-zealousness. Ah, yet another growth opportunity.

What I would really like to see is more awareness of the statistics surrounding free-range meat make it into the general consciousness. It's far less energy and resource intensive than grain-fed meat, and far healthier, with free-range beef having just as muh omega-3 fatty acids as wild salmon. It's also great for the environment, as well-managed grasslands don't need the water and chemical fetrilizers that grains need to grow.

Okaaaaay, need to step down off the soapbox and get to work.

Liz

Re: What do you do for ILP?

I've ordered the book…there's really no hope for me.

Juliee

Re: What do you do for ILP?

My experience of book-addicted people is that it's only a problem if they don't read them. I'll be thrilled if you get something from that book. I'll only reiterate to take all evenagelism with a grain of salt, even from me. I've learned that–hey, KW is right–all knowledge is incomplete.

Liz

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Juliee:
OMG…another book…I think I need therapy…addicted to books!

LOL

I knew you wouldn't be able to stay away from it :)

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for starting a great Territory thread.


Currently meditating with a sound CD by Jonathan Halpern (?)
I have mentioned my NSA practice elsewhere
Dance weekly (estatic dance)            I consider all 3 of these both UR and UL
I would add yoga but it is not a steady practice at the moment (although has been in the past) … ha, see how I did that…. trying to add extra “points” for something I used to do but don't currently do…… does that even count?

Food intake varies … when I am eating 'at my best' I eat mostly veg/some fish and no dairy or flour.  When I am not 'at my best'  bread and cookies are eaten : )

Funny, but I also consider my postion at work (manager) as part of my service work.  I hold a considerable amount of space for people and counsel and process with folks daily.

Read Read and More Read.  I was on a mostly non-fiction/spiritual kick for a long time and have recently moved back to including fiction (even trashy fiction, like Valley of the Dolls)

Shadow work varies too… I love Byron Katie's work, it points to the self/projection rather quickly.  321 process works too (if I am all twisted in projection mode)  For deeper inquiry, I seek counsel from friends (some of whom, luckily are therapists) and of course by sitting with a quesiton for days or weeks at a time scouring out it's embedded nature.

And Creativity……. just for the fun of it….. for me is important and one aspect of my ILP I am hoping to make more room for.  I love acrylics and writing and lately have been enjoying the work of others more than creating my own.

I am sure there is more, since it has taken me a few days to answer, better just send post

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Liz

I bought the blood type diet book (of course I did - silly statement!!) and started to apply the principles. I feel so much better and I even lost 4lbs in the 2 weeks over xmas and new year, without even trying - over xmas!!!

A substantial proportion of the foods I had been eating for the 'new and healthier' me were on the 'poison' list for my blood type - avocados, tomatoes, chicken!!!

So I made the most gorgeous cheese omlette and adored every mouthful! Yay!

So much for mainly vegetarian, no dairy and no red meat!

Thanks for the recommendation

Juliee
x

PS I've started making my own bread using spelt flour, healthy, delicious, sooo easy to make and very therapeutic all that dough bashing.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Wonderful, Juliee! It's amazing, isn't it? I still struggle with wanting things that are bad for me, but “poison” really does capture it. I feel poisoned when I eat certain foods, and people think it's in my head or I'm being dramatic. Not so! Arthur and I ate something at our co-op at one of those sample stands and we were both sick for hours after–brain fog, headache, dizziness, and flu-like feelings.

And now I know what blood type you are…bwahahahaha!

Do be careful about breads that advertize “gluten free.” in the EU, the rules are lax, and many “gluten free” items are really not. But if you're making your own bread, you're way ahead of the game.

I am going to try spelt again, now that a friend has said there are types that are GF. I can actually tolerate some gluten (not wheat), but I don't want to have it in the house, as others here have stricter diets.

Liz

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Liz: And now I know what blood type you are…bwahahahaha!

Do you know I debated putting my type in and then thought no - too much information - there are some funny people out there, they'll have to at least do some research before they can have that piece of info!! How sad - me paranoid?

Juliee

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Yep, I thought the same thing. You'll just have weird people who have the book handy stalking you now, instead of regular poison-eating folk…seriously, no, I don't think it's paranoid. We live in a very strange and unpredictable time/space matrix!

Anyway, I just want to offfer encouragement. This diet-change thing is a marathon, not a sprint. There will be infractions and struggles, but you will eventually prevail. This year I'm healthier than I've ever been, and it took several years to really get this. But I didn't start out with the blood type diet, and it was a much more evolutionary process for me. My gut has healed quite a lot, though, and in very tangible ways. You may be surprised at your results.

———-

One thing I realized this morning was that I need to do more metta. Arthur's the one with more meditation experience, as mine is a more home-grown variety I've cobbled together on my own. Who wants to tell about their meditation practice and what really works for them?

Liz

Re: What do you do for ILP?

I'll bite …

I do sitting meditation, mostly just watching my breath and my thoughts. But the most productive work for me is mindfulness in my daily life – just trying to be aware of what is happening within me.

One other meditation practice I enjoy – weight training. Nothing gets me focused in the present moment as much as handling heavy weights – it's either be present or get crushed.

Peace,
Bill

Re: What do you do for ILP?

I just spent about 10 minutes reading through this thread…it seems that the thing that most people do as ILP is…EAT!

Does that strike anybody else as funny? :-)

I'm going to have dinner now, hehe.

Frans

Re: What do you do for ILP?

You might be on to something there, Frans …. I can even remember Pelle saying elsewhere that he'd eat a certain person's Teal values for breakfast.

For brain food I eat (ok, drink) wild blue-green algae from Klamath Lake.

As part of qi gong practice I love (in bird qi gong) scooping qi into my middle tan tien with  crane's wings and having a good ol' munch that way.

I think my most important practice is being in the presence of awareness in whatever I'm involved in, and within this as much as possible being present to nature of mind …. and re-discovering this whenever I find myself (ok, ra-a-a-ather often) pulled away from it.

Coming back to eating : ) … I try to be present when I'm eating to the countless sentient beings that have died in order for that food to get on my plate. I make a connection with them / their individual continuum, through my intention, creating a cause for them to find their way onto a final path … along the lines of “… we'll meet again and journey along the way together ..”.

Being in this zaadz we-space is a hugely important part of my ILP …. food for the heart, soul and spirit.

ILP in progress: working on stretching, expanding the 'self' line out of its comfort zones … which involves not just thinking but feeling out of the sphere. And noticing how effortlessly I contract back into the known, the 'safe' (actually, not so safe really).

Now for neglected ILP.

My Jungian person is in South Africa til mid-March (since early December). It's beginning to feel like it might be too long to wait without doing at least something else. Can anyone direct me to an in-depth explanation of the 3-2-1 process?

Dancing. I love 5 Rhythms but haven't been to any classes for a while now. A friend is leading a Live Rhythms class (live music, druming etc.) on Thursday evening in Totnes and I'm going!

Work! Ok, I do work … it's networking and promotional infrastructures that I have to do more work on. I have to find other organic, free-range ways than I've tried so far to get myself more out there and noticed. Hey, world, guess what – I'm a fucking awesome craniosacral therapist!! Well … maybe not that free-range.

Okay, it's pretty much lunch-time. Scrambled eggs (with parmigiano and pecorino), and mushrooms, on toast (home-baked bread of course) anyone?

Lol

Re: What do you do for ILP?

yep, i'd like some of that omelette and toast. 

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hiya blue eyes!

You're welcome to stop by for a bite to eat (and of course a mug of fine Darjeeling) anytime : )

And happy new year, with every auspiciousness and serendipity, to you too!

Lol x

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Eddie!

I have never been able to start a practice just by rationally thinking this technique would be beneficial for me, and just starting to do it. I have more felt the need of my leisure time to be freely flowing, with as little rigid schedules as possible, having my doings just spontaneously appearing. I also feel this need is quite legitimate and appropriate, when we tend to have our working lives highly scheduled.
Partly for this reason I have regularly felt a strong resistance towards implementing a new regular practice into my life. However I have started during my lifetime one by one many lasting practices,  because I have felt somehow strongly pushed and pulled to do so.

The first technique I adopted over 35 years ago was TM-meditation. My close friend had for over a year had an obsession that I should learn this technique.
I resisted strongly, and was also very suspicious of gurus. Then one day I saw something  in her eyes I had never seen there before, and immediately knew I had to start meditating. After being initiated to the technique, I soon started to have so powerful experiences that I felt on a daily basis strongly pulled towards meditation. Finding time for meditation was not a problem, not overdoing it was. Often when I just was resting for a while doing nothing, the meditation spontaneously started.

After having been meditated for a couple of years I observed clear improvements in my overall health and habitual ways. One of these things was becoming more conscious of my eating habits, and how I felt after eating something. This made me gradually adopt a  mostly vegetarian low fat diet, with some fish, and no diary products except some low fat cheese.

23 years ago a meditating friend of mine started to push me to learn a powerful breathing technique called ‘Rebirthing’. She told me that many meditators had learned this technique, and found it very beneficial, and it had also improved their meditation experiences. She was also asking me if I could allow a weekend seminar to be held in our house. She would gather the needed 10 people for the teacher to come. I agreed after a few weeks resistance. The funny thing was, when I saw this French teacher the first time, a chill went through my body, and I strongly felt I knew her from before. She later told me she had precisely the same experience with me.
‘Rebirthing’ was a powerful breathing technique, that activated during the sessions deep hidden emotions and bodily sensations to be integrated through the breathing. I found it highly beneficial for me, and participated in many other breathing seminars, and finally learned to guide myself breathing sessions, which I did for many years. This French teacher became a close friend of mine. She has visited since then Finland frequently, and lived long times in our house. I think it is almost a second home to her.

Both with TM-meditation and Rebirthing I did for a while the technique exactly according to the instructions, but gradually started to do tiny adjustments to make the technique accommodate better for my needs, and to make it work more efficiently for me. I’m still meditating and doing breathing techniques, but my practises have evolved so much during the years, that I cannot call them anymore TM or Rebirthing.

After having been practising Rebirthing for a few years I saw clearly that the technique was less and less able to activate deep processes in me to be integrated. At the same time I knew pretty well that I still had a lot of shadow stuff hidden inside.

So far in my life I had not been able to adopt a regular physical exercise regime to my life, even if I felt I needed it. I had tried doing yoga-asanas daily, but failed because I got my muscles sore from it. I had tried other things also, but dropped them all. I had all the time felt physical exercise is something I have to do to keep myself in shape, and not really enjoying doing it.
As I felt somehow having got stuck in my breathing sessions, where not much happened any more, an idea came to me to try combine light physical exercise simultaneously with deep breathing. I started experimenting with it, and found the exercising highly enjoyable and also very beneficial for me. I did many adjustments in the breathing and could gradually increase the power of the physical exercise. I was not just anymore doing yoga-asanas, I also started to go to gym and worked with weights, and enjoyed it enormously. And soon I observed the problem was not anymore how to adopt a regular training practice. It was how to make place for enough recovery time between the practices. I have been quite regular in the physical exercises for the last 18 years. Finding time has not been a problem, even if these practises take 8-10 hours per week. At the same time my deeper meditation/ breathing sessions have been spontaneously shifted to the night time, often early morning hours.

I got also initiated to Freemasonry in 1982. Many of my closest friends were at that time already Freemasons. For the LL and LR practices Freemasonry has been a treasure for me. It has taught me how powerfully an organizational structure itself can support one’s evolving. It has also been about co-operation, about building together, how in this building work the individuals have different functions and roles, and how our differences are actually a resource. Freemasonry is hierarchical, and I have learned the crucial importance of healthy hierarchies. It is also throughout symbolical in its approach. I have learned to see the power of the symbolic approach. Symbolism has been strongly present in spirituality throughout human history. Many old texts have still validity and important messages to us, when they are not understood literally, but symbolically.

In the 90’s I had also 8 years of psychotherapy.

And I read psychological, spiritual and philosophical stuff. Watching TV I have not so far in my life found time for.



Irmeli

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Thanks so much Irmeli, for taking the time to write that overview. It helps me a lot to see how others' practices have evolved, and lets me know that I am not wasting my time by doing things in an unorthodox way. I especially liked the idea of time between exercise as being important. This is seen in every practice, be it music or exercise or graphic design–the negative space, the space between the notes. These are what makes it music! This is what puts us in space-time at all, instead of another realm, why the manifest is Real, no? So we can play.

Liz

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Integral life practice isn't a formula to follow or a dogma to believe in, but arises from inquiring into our person in terms of our purpose and direction; make meaning of our life; interface with others and the environment, in which we exist.

Putting our life into the four quadrants neither makes it integral, nor renders it whole and the same applies to ILP, which is something each one of us does, at each level of development, to maintain their balance in order to exist.

Human development isn't a technique; it isn't cultivated by simply or blindly following a map; a construct or belief; this isn't what human development amounts to and the same applies to ILP.

Allowing our own integral life practice to emerge necessitates that we do away with all pre-conceived ideas we have about it, which requires the cultivation of awareness that is derived from inquiring into ”what is.” ILP can involve drinking and smoking; watching movies and having sex; ILP is what each of us do in every and each moment. So, why make  a concept out of it–this isn't how we evolve, but how we translate our belief-systems so that we can follow them, in practice. Believing and evolving are two different things. Transformation isn't the result of believing into ourselves–into our constructs, theories and maps of consciousness. This is wher ILP begins.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Cristoph,

”Integral life practice isn't a formula to follow or a dogma to believe in, but arises from inquiring into our person in terms of our purpose and direction; make meaning of our life; interface with others and the environment, in which we exist.

Putting our life into the four quadrants neither makes it integral, nor renders it whole and the same applies to ILP, which is something each one of us does, at each level of development, to maintain their balance in order to exist.

Human development isn't a technique; it isn't cultivated by simply or blindly following a map; a construct or belief; this isn't what human development amounts to and the same applies to ILP.”

I am in no way in disagreement with what you're saying here – but you're not implying that it's not useful to first relate to the idea of “lines of development”, and then identify lines/areas that one could work on with the aim of improving in these lines/areas, and incorporate this more into daily life, are you?

Lol

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Lol,

It's hard to identify anything if you already have a pre-conceived notion of what you'll be identifying; in other words, if you already know how beautiful a sunrise looks like, you may never again pay attention to it, simply because you know how it looks like-beautiful.

Becoming aware of who we are doesn't happen when we already know of what we want or need to become aware of. Awareness doesn't work quite in this way, while our thinking does. Awareness is cultivated through inquiry, not by knowing what we ought to do, like, for instance, designing an integral life practice or, worse, simply adapting to a given model of a so-called integral life practice.

Life isn't about extinguishing fires even though we are used to living like that; “integral” has its own fire, which we, in turn, attempt to fane by blindly adapting, for instance, to integral's propagated life practice, as if human development can be facilitated through a technique.

This is not to say that Valium, the medicine, has its purpose and place, for it does, but simply because Valium helps your next door neighbor, that doesn't mean it will do the same for you; because you're a different person, with different conditions, who may live a very different life than that of your neighbor.

Propagating a general technique is what the Evangelical Christians do on TV, which is probably the stage of consciousness “integral,” as a movement, has arrived to-the blue meme in SI terms, but, more likely, it isn't further evolved than purple or the tribalist stage of consciousness.

“Integral” isn't about the propagation of another belief system and the integral life practice qualifies as such a belief system; hence, people subscribe to it, like we subscribe to any belief system. Krishnamurti once said that you can't bring the mountain to the valley.

Integral life practice emerges organically when we make the efforts to inquire into our human nature; integral life practice is an individual affair; trying to access oneself is like trying to cut our own hair without a mirror. Thinking that we know which lines we have to develop and on what quadrants to focus doesn't do us any good; just the contrary, because the imbalance that surface in our life arise for a reason, for they help us to evolve and deepen our awareness of who we are. Learning to contain these imbalances is harder than to adapt to any technique of human development; learning to contain them is how we grow. This learning happens in relationship, not by structuring our life according to the four quadrants or our theoretical knowledge about the various lines of development. Learning is inter-actional; it doesn't happen by thinking about it, just like meditation starts there where we have surrendered our ideas, expectations and goals what there is to achieve.

- christoph

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi, Christoph,

Welcome to this pod.  I've been reading a number of your posts, and this was just the first one which prompted me to say something – though you've raised good points and important challenges in other posts, and I will likely respond to some of them later. 

In this post, I think you've made some excellent points about the important role of inquiry, the problems that may attend simply following a method or formula (Integral or otherwise), the barrenness of techniques (in and of themselves), etc.  However, if you are suggesting that it is therefore a waste of time to consciously employ something like an Integral Life Practice (as Wilber recommends), then I would disagree.  A life of inquiry is not opposed to anything, even techniques or consciously chosen programs of study.  In Krishnamurti-esque fashion, I used to take a hard line against methods, particularly methods of self-development, but later found that that position was not tenable – that the employment of techniques could foster inquiry, if engaged with the appropriate spirit – with clarity and attention and appreciative awareness.

I totally agree that simply “plugging in” a particular Integral-Institute-sanctioned routine of practice, or simply “downloading” the AQAL map, do not instantly usher you in to Integral territory.  But these things can be approached with a spirit of open inquiry, and they may even facilitate a quickening of insight that may not come as readily when one eschews any particular formal practices.  I would not go so far as to say that formal practices are necessary – I do not think they are – but they can nevertheless be occasions for knowledge as any other living relationship or form of vital engagement with life.

Best wishes,

Balder

P.S.  You mentioned, rather provocatively, that the general center of gravity in the Integral movement was probably “Blue” if not “Purple.”  Can you explain how you've drawn this conclusion?  What communities have you moved in?  What sorts of encounters have you had that have led you to this conclusion?

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Balder,

I did miss your post and I appreciate that you pointed it out to me. I echo our insights and no or yes, I'm not suggesting that it's a “waste of time to consciously employ something like an Integral Life Practice.” You get the point about the balance of holding space and applying an approach or spaciousness and form. One without the other leads to extremism, from which dogma is born, which also goes in the direction of inquiry, which, as you pointed out, can be taken to an extreme. The most beautiful person, theory, or what have you becomes ugly when it is deified, because it looses its beauty in this process. Formal practice is probably necessary for the realization of our ego, which doesn't mean there are exceptions, just like formal study of integral is necessary to understand it; simply discussion it, as if we would know it doesn't deepen our comprehension thereof. As I mentioned in my essay, second-tier community without integral theory is a pipe-dream.  

Assessing a community “center of gravity” is derived from observing its patterned mode of interaction, which, in regard to “integral” focuses mostly on fundamental ideas, which are often believed in blindly-inquiry into them doesn't seem to be much done anywhere, which is not simply taking another position. Inquiry isn't about approving or dismissing integral, but cultivating awareness. I can't give you a brief answer concerning the comment I made; it something that you can see when looking around; I talk more about it in the most recent essay posted at my blog.

Smile,

- christoph

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Christoph

”It's hard to identify anything if you already have a pre-conceived notion of what you'll be identifying; in other words, if you already know how beautiful a sunrise looks like, you may never again pay attention to it, simply because you know how it looks like-beautiful.”

But the reality is that even if I have on some level identified sunrises as beautiful, associated them with beauty, this doesn't get in the way of me appreciating the next or another sunrise, ever afresh …. because I can be and am in relation to that particular manifestation afresh, as if with new eyes. Similarly, if I become aware of myself over a period of days becoming physically less supple and energetically sluggish, maybe one could say I'm identifying something, but I happen to relate to it on the one hand as becoming present to an aspect of my relative condition as an effect of my conduct (choe-pa), and at the same time I can be in relation to it as “what is”, or at least its “what is-ness”, and in the presence of that awareness choose to do something about it. What I probably will do is some qi gong …. because I have experience of qi gong helping me be more supple and energetically more fluid. That experience was gained after being introduced to qi gong as a practice that gives benefits on a number of levels. When I say levels I'm don't mean structure-stages – if I analysed it I might find it more accurate to say lines. The truth is I don't automatically think in terms of levels, lines, quadrants etc. – but I do appreciate having been introduced to the concepts, to the map, and feel that to some degree at least I have absorbed, possibly even integrated a little, this map into my … what? consciousness? I personally haven't taken on ILP as a set of practices that I'd simply be better off doing. I find myself somewhat alienated by the package / packaging …. but I appreciate the heads up on, for example, the importance of working with Shadow, which in itself might inspire me or act as a catalyst to my finding someone to help me enquire into this aspect of my psyche…. and I also know that if do qi gong regularly I benefit in all sorts of ways …. and likewise I know from past experience that when I did it daily for a certain amount of time each day something was actually developing, being cultivated – this is the “gong” part of qi gong.

I could view the middle part of your post as a kind of homily, but I actually enjoy how you write, and appreciate reading what you write. But like Bruce I'd like to hear about how you've arrived at your premise that “… [this] is probably the stage of consciousness “integral,” as a movement, has arrived to-the blue meme in SI terms, but, more likely, it isn't further evolved than purple or the tribalist stage of consciousness.”

Your last paragraph in general I take no issue with. More than that, it resonates well with me. The last line, however, I don't accept for what it appears to be at face value.

You say: ”Learning is inter-actional; it doesn't happen by thinking about it, just like meditation starts there where we have surrendered our ideas, expectations and goals what there is to achieve.”

You probably need to define and qualify what you mean by meditation. Would you not, for example, include the analytical type of meditation that enquires into the nature of suffering, its cause, the definiteness of its cessation and the path (to follow) to arrive at this cessation? Or the various meditations relating to the “aspiring mind of bodhicitta”?

Best wishes,

Lol

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Christoph,

Welcome to the pod. Things have been awfully slow here lately, so it's nice to have someone come in and stir things up.

 
Allowing our own integral life practice to emerge necessitates that we do away with all pre-conceived ideas we have about it, which requires the cultivation of awareness that is derived from inquiring into “what is.”

First of all, I think you're confusing states and stages a little bit. Inquring into “what is” will get us to the unborn; it won't necessarily make us integral. That is, resting as the unborn and acting as the unborn in the most evolved way are two different things. We can rest as the unborn and act as Red, as Amber, Orange, Green, Teal. We can have a Red enlightenement, an Amber enlightenment, an Orange enlightenment, etc. All enlightenments include some combinations of these structures–we can have a pre-integral enlightenment, a sometimes-integral enlightement, a usually integral enlightenment, an at-times superintegral enlightenment. We can inquire into “what is” successfully and have many different kinds of results, not all of them integral. 

 

 ILP can involve drinking and smoking;

An ILP (life at an integral altitude) couldn't include these things to the point of harming the person's health. A super ILP (life at a super-integral altitude) couldn't include these things to the point of harming anyone else's health either. An enlightened person (by traditional standards, again) might smoke to the point of illness and disease, even death, but that wouldn't be an integral enlightenment.

Ken has mentioned at least a couple of ways that AQAL could occur in a spiritual life. One is as an operating system. That is, one could inquire into what is successfully, and then, upon acting, act in an integral manner, act in such a way that is at least implicitly cognizant of levels, lines, types, states, quadrants, and self–this is not the case with most “enlightened” people. Ken speaks about this in this video. Another way he has mentioned its use in a spiritual life is as a checklist–now and then step back and look at how things have unfolded and see if, for example, you are hitting all quadrants in the proper measure. Because we can be conditioned, personally and culturally, to favor some quadrants over others, but that conditioning is not necesarily ideal. He spoke about that in Denver with Andrew Cohen, but I can't find the video right now.

Best,

David

Re: What do you do for ILP?

David,

Integral study doesn't make us integral, as put forth in a recently posted essay on my blog. As for the confusion of stages and states, see Integral from the Inside-Out, should you be interested in a more delinated differentiation concerning this subject matter: http://www.integralworld.net/index.html?schaub14.html

An ILP (life at an integral altitude) couldn't include these things (drinking and smoking) to the point of harming the person's health.

What does life at an integral altitude look like for you? In Nazi-Germany they had this idea what a true Arian looks like. Of course, those who objected to this ideal could neither be Arian, nor were their objections taking into consideration; on the contrary, they were deported to a concentration camp.

A “diplomat” in Cook-Greuter's self-development model would conclude that  “An ILP (life at an integral altitude) couldn't include these things (drinking and smoking) to the point of harming the person's health. A super ILP (life at a super-integral altitude) couldn't include these things to the point of harming anyone else's health either.”

Accordingly, smoking and drinking would be outlawed in the name of living life from an integral altitude; those who happen to smoke or drink couldn't have achieved there, couldn't they? Is this what the integal altitude amounts to and do you think that you have reached there? Is integral just another belief system? It might be to you, but it isn't to me.

- christoph

Re: What do you do for ILP?

PS: There are people who sacrifice their health for the greater good of the whole; people who use their bodies, like Gandhi, to faciliate change; to get people move beyond their limiting constructs. If Gandhi had lived an integrally-informed life, he probably wouldn't have been shot.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Cristoph,

  What does life at an integral altitude look like for you? In Nazi-Germany they had this idea what a true Arian looks like. Of course, those who objected to this ideal could neither be Arian, nor were their objections taking into consideration; on the contrary, they were deported to a concentration camp.

So, is the implication here that we can't make any universal standards of “the good,” that the good is entirely subjective?


A “diplomat” in Cook-Greuter's self-development model would conclude that  “An ILP (life at an integral altitude) couldn't include these things (drinking and smoking) to the point of harming the person's health.

A “diplomat” wouldn't be the only one who wouldn't think it's a good idea to smoke and drink to the point of ill health. The only one above that who might think it doesn't matter would be the pluralist. Of course one can think it's not a good idea and still do it … 

 

David: A super ILP (life at a super-integral altitude) couldn't include these things to the point of harming anyone else's health either.”

Christoph: Accordingly, smoking and drinking would be outlawed in the name of living life from an integral altitude

I wouldn't say “outlawed.” A “diplomat” might outlaw it; we might see it outlawed in an Amber culture. I would be more likely to tax it than outlaw it. In fact, I'm hoping the Illinois State legistature does just that to fund Chicago's transit system. Raising it $.90 per pack is one thing they're considering–they have to do something within about two weeks. Some liberal Democrats are objecting to the cigarette tax because they feel smokers have been picked on enough; I think a high tax would be good to discourage new smokers, in additon to funding public transit …

Anyway, a person living at an integral altitude would care for his or her body; therefore smoking or drinking to the point of ill health would not be something we would see at that altitude.

 

 Christoph: Is this what the integal altitude amounts to and do you think that you have reached there?

I think caring for one's health–and most likely the health of others as well–would be one characteristic of integral altitude–and YES!!!!!! I HAVE REACHED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Nothwithstanding a little caffeine and chocolate …

:)

David
 

PS. Self-sacrifce for a higher cause is certainly compatible with an integral life. Sacrificing one's health for no cause or the cause of one's momentary gratification–alcohol or cigarette use to the point of ill health or death, for example–is what's not compatable.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

David

The comment made was not to discuss social theory concerning what the good constitutes, which is inter-subjective, because it is relational. To say that smoking or drinking is detrimental to our physical health is one thing, to say that someone wouldn't smoke or drink at an integral level another.

Since you have evolved to the integral attitude, may I ask you what that represents for you? Does that mean you operate from an integrally-informed consciousness; do you infer by it to your gravity of consciousness; what do you mean by it?

I appreciate your clarification.

- christoph

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Christoph, in case you missed it, I addressed a post to you earlier in this thread.  You can read it here.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Hi Christoph,

 

Since you have evolved to the integral attitude, may I ask you what that represents for you? Does that mean you operate from an integrally-informed consciousness; do you infer by it to your gravity of consciousness; what do you mean by it?

I'll have to think about that one! It's the hardest question I've been asked all year!

Okay, I've thought about it. I had first thought I would sleep on it and come back tomorrow with an answer. But, though it is late, I believe I will attempt an answer right now!

Well, to operate from an integrally informed consciousness one would have to first of all have to consider a certain number of perspectives, say four or five. One would also be cognizant of the levels or structures that had made one's consciousness possible–it would appreciate the good of those worldviews, have an understanding what the weaknesses or shortcomings of each of those views are, and be able to use each in the proper measure. One would consider interior causation, exterior causation. One would consider all four quadrants, all lines as well, and types, self … .

But if you ask me, values and ethics would have to come in to play to really have an integral altitude. One would believe that each of the worldviews that made its integral consciousness possible should have an honored place in the world and that people have a right to evolve through them and fulfill their potential. One would no longer object to a hierarchy of values, a hierarchy of levels or structures. One could evaluate people and cultures and ideas clearly without being swayed by emotional attachments; for example, a person would be able to take an objective view on a dispute that involved their own family, ethnicity, country, etc. One would have at least a worldcentric view, or a strong worldcentric view.

One would have given up the cynicism and flatland directionlessness of relativism–one would care about things, care about life, the world to some degree, and actually be willing to do something to help it if called upon. One would have some kind of mission in life, even if it be to give up a personally mission-oriented life (which is different than postmodern apathy)…  I may be getting a little beyond Teal here because Teal is probably a little self-interested and self-concerned. Well, the integral person would have transcended gender biases to some degree as well. One would consider one's emotions but not be ruled by them, consider their appetites but not be ruled by them either …

I'm not describing myself there exactly, but just integral in general …
 
Well, that'll do for now,

David

PS. A person with integral consciousness would spontaneously see all levels, all lines, all quadrants, types, and self, or some equivalent of that–one would be able to consider those perspectives and apply them spontaneously, without having to look it up or pull out a pen and paper, though pulling out a pen and paper might come first.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

David,

How many people do you know who fit your description, be they personal or public figures?

Re: What do you do for ILP?

Well, I would bet that most of these people would fit that description. A few dozen on this pod, maybe a few dozen more outside of it, though I hardly ever see them.

Re: What do you do for ILP?

David,

You mean that most people to whom you refered to “see, as you write, “all levels, all lines, all quadrants, types, and self, or some equivalent of that-one would be able to consider those perspectives and apply them spontaneously, without having to look it up or pull out a pen and paper, though pulling out a pen and paper might come first.”

Keep on dreaming, but I'm not surprised about this perspective; integral is full of people who are smitten with thinking how highly evolved they are; integral speaks to them like the Bible speaks to fundamental Christian and both share more in common than they may admit–it's called blind belief.  

“Being highly evolved in one quadrant doesn't make us equally evolved in another. Understanding Wilber's integral philosophy doesn't mean that we have evolved to the stage of consciousness from which it is derived. Similarly, having the ability to assume multiple perspectives doesn't mean that we have ever stepped into the river of self-awareness. We can, as Wilber alludes to in Integral Spirituality, be highly conscious of our individual or phenomenological reality of being and equally aware in the realm of self-awareness, as in the case of the Dalai Lama, while the microcode of our manifest existence processes the mythic-rational stage of consciousness, in which case we might conclude, as the Dalai Lama did, that homosexuality is a sin or violates the sanctity of the Buddha-Dharma.”

Cook-Greuter's sentence-completion test, simply put, relates to the second-person zone, the conceptual perspective of our self-identity, or the meaning-making that is the objectified conceptualization of our immediate experience. The immediate experience referred to here is not to be confused with our phenomenological or ontological apprehension of being. Similarly, the cultural or exterior aspect of our self-awareness is not to be confused with its inter-personal and intra-personal zones. Bert Hellinger's constellation approach-which is as well-known to some people as Wilber's integral philosophy is to others-relates to the inter-personal dynamics of a social organism, be it family, business or nation, while Don Beck's Spiral Dynamics pertains to the cultural emergence thereof. This leaves the intra-personal aspect of self-awareness, which is rather difficult to communicate in language, especially since we are so accustomed to associating self-awareness with ourselves instead of the inter-subjective quadrant to which it actually relates and is derived from.”
 
How very reductionist integral folks are when he rubber hits the road, so to speak. It helps to become aware of it in body, mind and spirit–in self, culture and world. Walking with our head in the sky doesn't do any good for the earth. Call me arrogant, which is what you're called when you reflect arrogance in drags, as in integrally-informed.