Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Remembering a comment Ken Wilber made on Kosmic Consciousness about teacher types I tend to agree. Going to learn Zen meditation or any meditation for that matter is pretty much like training for your black belt in Karate. Adjuncts such as Holosync could almost been seen as taking protein supplements while weight training or even a form of electronic steroid.

This view could be very helpful to de-mystify things such as Zen and Meditation for the masses who still have those ethnocentric reservations and misperceptions of such things, not to mention the great value in practicing these things to begin with.

Also, it would help as an image to hold in ones mind for the hero types who need to identify with stages of growth that are rewarded and recognized. Like being an Eagle Scout. The same could be applied to psychotherapy efforts. Mental and emotional gymnastics.

I know this is a little along the vein of the Integral Martial Arts thread, I think the analogy deserves its own thread as the direction it can take could branch off in very different directions.

Dan

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

This view could be very helpful to de-mystify things such as Zen and Meditation for the masses who still have those ethnocentric reservations and misperceptions of such things, not to mention the great value in practicing these things to begin with.


Zen is already a pretty stripped down version of the teachings. Less words and more non-action. But is meditation on it's own worthy of doing? The Buddha first learned the most advanced techniques of his day (got to the 6th and 7th jhanas with 2 different teachers). He felt that was not enough and continued his search. After his enlightenment, he stuck meditation in his ILP (8 fold path) as one of the path factors that needed development.

I am reminded of how yoga is marketed these days to the masses. It seems to be nothing more than fostering a cult of the body. I use to enjoy reading Yoga Journal and now the magazine seems like McYoga-lite.

Without a context of meaning (i.e. culture) how valuable and how efficacious is any technique in and of itself?


love

e

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

I know e , I know! It's the mass trend of everything becoming “Ophraized” “Americanized” “Mass Marketed”  Dumb it down and sweeten it up for mass consumption.

It sells and its good for profits. We know that sex sells, so does the “McDonaldization” and “Fast Food” menatilty seeping into post-modern and intergral culture.

It's what makes it pay baby. Orange in the drivers seat. Now the hippie cultural finally pays off and you can get that thrid house and boat to boot.

Dan

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

I've been using extreme sports metaphors to talk about practice and practices for many many years - it's one of my favorites, actually.

I've also been working on restating the goals and models of practices in non-ethnic/regional terms, and non-religious terms, for many years.

But I kind of agree with e that there's a cost to seperating practices from their original models. I think the cost can be acceptable, especially if one makes sure to update the model behind the practices.

But the practices without their contextual model have certain dangers. Of course, all extreme sports have their dangers too - it's just that most people mistakenly assume practices are inherently safe.

They would only be inherently safe if they did nothing, ha ha ha.

Anyway, even tho your metaphor of “black belt in zen” is consistent (both originally japanese ideas), and it might be a good way to sell a meme, my concern, which isn't a strong concern, is that you haven't gone quite far enough with your metaphor - one foot in the sports model, one in the regional/religious model.

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

I think the methaphor is a good one; strive for perfection. But also knowing that black belt is the level just past beginners. Supposedly once a black belt you should know your basics enough to be able to make real progress. Uptil then the focus has been basic form, angles, techniques, strenght and agility. Up till black belt (and even long beyond that) most people have no interest or even ability to ponder the human or spiritual context in which the practice is contained. And ideally the context would be a wholesome one of course.

I agree fully with e about his point of context. If there is a spiritual practice it would benefit greatly from a wholistic view. Martial Arts is very much the same. If the teacher is not able to show the whole range (when asked) the student will have a narrow and limited view. Basics are necessary and fundamental but only so that we can use them in our ongoing exploration and incorporation into a fuller expression of humanity. Isn't that what “skill” is all about?

So let's endavor to earn a black belt in emptiness/love.

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

isn't the striving to earn counter-zen?

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

No not at all. This is a common misunderstanding. To endeavor to realize life's deepest questions is a well intended motivation. And if taken seriously one can actually intimate a pull from the Absolute wanting you to cultivate and grow. Like it says in the Bible, only those God pull on will go to him. Seek him with all your heart, all your mind, and with all your strength.

Isn't that what lured you into this whole business in the first place?

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

First, I want to thank Bill for side stepping my rants and getting to a more creative level in the discussion. This has been a habit of mine and needs to be refined to a more creative level of thought process.

By removing the practice from the model we endanger its purity and the techniques that are best, but may take years to master which is way too long for our instant gratification society. Zen on the run is what this culture is attracted to and that's not Zen at all. They even have a cereal called “Zen” in health food stores for that fast breakfast. On the other hand, it could make a very valuable way of life more accessible to very busy cultures. Who's got time?

Many Zen teachers have lineages and won't tolerate it. And so the market supplies us with alternatives. Some have value; some don't and just are a form of spiritual entertainment. Systems like Big Mind are worth exploring because they are hybrids that incorporate Western concepts and techniques.

“Striving to earn” in Zen as Nicole mentioned does seem counter to the core essence of awakening but you can't deny that when you go to a Zen retreat you are practicing something, what is it? It takes time and effort and skill. Some claim that's just a teacher trick to bring you to zero point. So that then gets into philosophy of what's the best way to do something in Zen.? There are many flavors of it for different types of folks now. In it's pure form not so the case.

“I think the methaphor is a good one; strive for perfection. But also knowing that black belt is the level just past beginners”. That's me Bjorn! I am a Zen beginner even though I have read much on it. To me, a “black belt” is something the mind can latch onto while it needs to. Just so long as it doesn't become an egoic obsession and block breakthroughs to new levels. Martial Arts can elicit that aggressive intense red meme defensive/aggressiveness so common to the power ego (on the positive side it develops self confidence, chi generation, agility and physical health).

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

isn't the striving to earn counter-zen?

Have you practiced zazen in one of it's various flavors?

It's hard work. It's physically painful, mentally painful, and emotionally painful.

Even tho the core of the technique is 'not to grasp at thoughts', you can't keep it up long enough to actually do it, without an extraordinary effort.

Not to mention doing it long enough so that the habit of 'observing without grasping' becomes strong enough for the more important effects to start. That's months and years of practice.

That requires a special kind of striving, especially in these times. So, you're mis-positioning the role of striving in zen - there is a specific technical way you are to relinquish grasping, but that doesn't mean no striving in general.

In the old days, there was always the stick. Who would endure the stick, if they weren't striving to attain? Of course, the stick is the easy path - it's even harder wthout the stick.

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Thank you Bill for the stick :) you're right, of course, and I'm grateful for the learning.

Namaste,

nicole

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Thank you Bill for the stick :) you're right, of course, and I'm grateful for the learning.

Namaste,

nicole

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Thank you Bill for the stick :) you're right, of course, and I'm grateful for the learning.

Namaste,

nicole

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

not sure why my last post was repeated 3 times - I only sent it once. Can a mod help delete the duplicates please?

Thanks,

Nicole

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

I've also been working on restating the goals and models of practices in non-ethnic/regional terms, and non-religious terms, for many years.

But I kind of agree with e that there's a cost to seperating practices from their original models. I think the cost can be acceptable, especially if one makes sure to update the model behind the practices.


I sat a retreat with Ajahn Amaro a few months ago. He said there are 3 aspects in any of the old sutras: mythological, psychological, spiritual. So there is talk nowadays about layering, talking to as many levels of people as possible within a talk or essay, etc. So, why the impetus to strip out the ethnicity, mythology, etc. Do we really think we are going to get closer to the truth because of it? I was just in India over the holidays and the mythology and ethnicity are many people's reality. I actually quite enjoyed it all…got a glimpse of what it must of been like in ancient Rome or Greece. Surely, being integral allows one to navigate these first tier realities without getting hung up on anything, yes? Isn't that what Teal initiates us into?

love

e

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Surely, being integral allows one to navigate these first tier realities without getting hung up on anything, yes? Isn't that what Teal initiates us into?

That's for you to demonstrate. I look on to your demonstrations with much curiousity and fascination.

I'm trying to demonstrate that restructuring the models to reflect the best of modern science, and a transcultural anthropological perspective, works better for modern humans than trying to wear the dress and adopt the manners and the world models of the ancient cultures from which these ideas came.

I believe that if we have to adopt the mindsets of ancient cultures in order to use these enlightenment technologies, they will, first, not be used, and second, to the extent that they are used, that they will block us off from the benefits of the modern scientific world models.

Since I'm not willing to give up the benefits of science, as far as I'm concerned, modernizing the models is critical.

But I don't mind if you don't want to, and like I said, I await your demonstrations with great interest.

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Bill, I really like your idea of modernizing and at the same time I enjoy as e the multi-layered display of culture. I do believe in translation in order to comprehend each-other. The more languages that we possess the more will we be able to bridge the old systems with the renewal of thought and ideas in science and in culture.

I feel free to use metaphors and parables, or quotes and sayings of old, to make a point, distilling it as it we proceed to clarify it. I feel free to use the old Bible or refer to any of old saying from Hindu mythology. Quoting Chuang Tzu or the Buddha as I see fit. But also knowing that many teaching would be best to keep within their own context, like for example, Christianity. Understanding the teaching of Jesus demands of us that we strive to comprehend all of its historical effect. The whys and hows of his message. I find it necessary to use old systems as they are very much a part of our society today, and also because it is maybe not so wise to separate here and now with our cultural past.

And also, I only bear witness to something that is much more encompassing that what I myself can lay claim to. But if I can back up what I say with historical evidence of revelation and insights, our present here and now is filled with a sense of historical connection and value.

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

e > Surely, being integral allows one to navigate these first tier realities without getting hung up on anything, yes? Isn't that what Teal initiates us into?

Bill > That's for you to demonstrate. I look on to your demonstrations with much curiousity and fascination.

While in India I donned local garb, performed ancient rituals within ancient ceremonies, shunned utensils and ate with my right hand, even drank water from the tap. All the while I did not forget how to logon to the internet and as far as I could reckon, gravity still fell at 9.8 m/sec*sec.

–

Bjorn >> And also, I only bear witness to something that is much more encompassing that what I myself can lay claim to. But if I can back up what I say with historical evidence of revelation and insights, our present here and now is filled with a sense of historical connection and value.

Bingo!!


love

e

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

To me, a black belt is like rational thought. It's something I need to have in order to truly transcend it. I'm currently training in aikido, and that is what is always on my mind. That I'd like to get that black belt. Not to have a black belt, but so that I can have the technique firmly grounded enough so that I can let go of technique and really starting learning aikido.

As it is now, it's a lot of sweat and not wanting to get back up off the floor. On occasion, it really flows, but mostly, it is about striving.

Of course, I also really want the cool outfit that goes with getting the black belt, and that has everything to do with attachment.

Liz

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

No Liz, it got to do with STYLE, not attachment:)

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

If the practice of yoga asanas/pranayama helps the age 50+ women I teach achieve 10-15 minutes of 'someplace else' once a week and gain some equanimity in their lives, who am I to deny them just because they're not taking a more purist or holistic path?

Is not second tier about meeting people where they are?

Juliee

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Yes, of course Julie but at least one person in the dynamic should be capable of backwards and forwards looking and that should be the teacher of the practice. That way maybe some, one or all of the ladies will connect more deeply or not. At least the potential should be there.

love

e

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Hello folks..I am enjoying the discussions here.

Regarding a path's cultural context; I would find it difficult to generalise about  what that context consists of so will restrict my focus to ritual.

The more a ritual is practised, the deeper the groove, or vasana, it cuts into Kosmos and so the more  potentially effective a ritual becomes to all who perform it.

I would regard the  potential benefits of a ritual as nucleating  around notions of becoming more receptive to,  consonant with  and experiencing of,  particular archetypal energies which, downSpiral , tend to be anthropomorphised as  beings with whom one seeks to resonate with in some way.

 An Integralist would hopefully possess the conceptual tools to be able to distinguish between pre- and trans-personal archetypal ritual and make an informed choice concerning the type of ritual one may wish to enact.

An Integralist would also be mindful of the Myth of the Given and seek to separate out pure archetypal essence evoked as a result of ritual from its cultural manifestation. The latter would seem to be a vehicle for the former, a sufficient but not necessary condition for evocation.

These sorts of distinctions could not, to my mind, be clearly made, if at all, by nonIntegrally-informed beings.

Example; I could use the Vajrayana Buddhist technique to self-generate as, say, Menla, the Medicine Buddha…so I visualise myself as having bright blue skin sat in my vajra posture,etc.,and in doing so connect with and add to the Menla  Kosmic vasana…this makes the task of visualisation somewhat easier than if I attempted to, say, self-generate as Carribean Ken, Consort of Barbie because nobody as far as I know does that (correct me if I'm wrong). The cultural manifestation becomes the vehicle which, fuelled by my personal faculties-in-training rides me into the essence of the practice which, at one level, engenders my compassion specifically in terms of my ability to heal, and, at a deeper level, facilitates, for example, insight  into the union of appearance and emptiness through the contemplation of Menla's body, either 1-p or 2-p.

Perhaps when the Integral Age really gets under way, rituals incorporating three or more perspectives will supercede or augment what is already practised.  Perhaps they won't culturally resemble anything we can do at present because of what the new worldviews disclose to us.  But I would imagine that a second or third-tier ritual would require a cultural context by which it could enable enactment..the difference between such an Integral ritual and a first-tier ritual would lie in the former's inherent facilitation of enabling its practitioner to separate essence from embodiment.

Thanx for reading..Jon x

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Hi Jon,


The more a ritual is practised, the deeper the groove, or vasana, it cuts into Kosmos and so the more  potentially effective a ritual becomes to all who perform it.

Yes, yes!

I would regard the  potential benefits of a ritual as nucleating  around notions of becoming more receptive to,  consonant with  and experiencing of,  particular archetypal energies which, downSpiral , tend to be anthropomorphised as  beings with whom one seeks to resonate with in some way.

 An Integralist would hopefully possess the conceptual tools to be able to distinguish between pre- and trans-personal archetypal ritual and make an informed choice concerning the type of ritual one may wish to enact.

Something to work toward, indeed…

An Integralist would also be mindful of the Myth of the Given and seek to separate out pure archetypal essence evoked as a result of ritual from its cultural manifestation. The latter would seem to be a vehicle for the former, a sufficient but not necessary condition for evocation…

I like that very much… “sufficient but not necessary”…

Perhaps when the Integral Age really gets under way, rituals incorporating three or more perspectives will supercede or augment what is already practised.  Perhaps they won't culturally resemble anything we can do at present because of what the new worldviews disclose to us.  But I would imagine that a second or third-tier ritual would require a cultural context by which it could enable enactment..the difference between such an Integral ritual and a first-tier ritual would lie in the former's inherent facilitation of enabling its practitioner to separate essence from embodiment.

Exactly! Thanks, my friend,

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

If the practice of yoga asanas/pranayama helps the age 50+ women I teach achieve 10-15 minutes of 'someplace else' once a week and gain some equanimity in their lives, who am I to deny them just because they're not taking a more purist or holistic path?

There's no reason to deny them anything.

It's not an either-or situation, it's a both-and. People can both run marathons and stroll around parks, and both have their values, and their place in the modern world.

And, you can do a lot of in-between things too. There are a lot of practical benefits of all kinds that are the results, or side effects, of doing practices.

It's when you do practices past a certain threshold point, which varies from person to person, that the heavy-duty results start, and depending on their nature and character and life-story, the heavier effects might not make the lives of your 50+ women examples easier.

But that depends on the person(s) involved.  It's kind of like all exercise - there's always a certain risk, of falling or injury - people have to make a reasoned choice about the risks, and the risks for what you are describing are pretty small. Much more dangerous to cross the street getting to the class.

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Hi Bill

My question was rhetorical; of course I'm aware that we can both run marathons and go for a stroll.

The question was an expression of my anger (which is arising again) at what seemed to me to be a belittle-ing of people who are practising a 'McDonaldisation' version of yoga. We are all in different places on different lines - who is brave enough to define any one pattern as the 'right' pattern. Where we are is where we're meant to be.

Juliee

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Juliee,

Yoga means to yoke. To yoke (integrate) body and mind.
If one is merely focused on the body is it ultimately yoga?
Why not call it stretching?

love

e

PS I did not make up these definitions and I was not belittling
anyones practice. I said Yoga Journal had lost it's depth.

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

e

if you read more closely up above I refer to asanas and pranayama  not just stretching. Yoking the body and the breath and with time the mind or no mind.

I'm not asking for a semantic lecture I'm asking for open mind open heart, compassion for others.

Juliee

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Thanks for replying Juliee and I am not sure where we got off on the wrong foot. Maybe this will allow us to see eye to eye.

Here is what I originally said…

I am reminded of how yoga is marketed these days to the masses. It seems to be nothing more than fostering a cult of the body. I use to enjoy reading Yoga Journal and now the magazine seems like McYoga-lite.

Now, you seemed to take offense and from what I gather you felt I was criticizing some of your students. It may seem that way but within the context of the thread, Earning A Black Belt In Zen, I wasn't. The magazine used to cater to all belts but now does not even seem to be concerned about that. It seems more interested in a yoga lifestyle (whatever that is) i.e. old Yoga Journal meets Cosmopolitan magazine.

You also responded,
if you read more closely up above I refer to asanas and pranayama  not just stretching. Yoking the body and the breath and with time the mind or no mind.

OK then my original comment was not addressed to you and I am not quite sure why you felt that it was. Again, you seem to be defending you and your students whom I was neither knowingly or unknowingly attacking nor criticising. I was critical of how Yoga seems to be watered down and then mass marketed. A valid criticism within the context of the thread IMHO.

Thanks for allowing me to further clarify.

love

e

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Hi e

Now, you seemed to take offense and from what I gather you felt I was criticizing some of your students.

OK then my original comment was not addressed to you and I am not quite sure why you felt that it was.

No I didn't feel you were criticising 'my' students or that it was addressed to me, it was nothing so personal as that, I felt a 'righteous' (my perception of course) indignation on behalf of the many people around the world who practice yoga at a level lower than 'black belt', at what i perceived (not just from you but from other posters too) as an an invalidating of their practice simply because it's not all-encompassing.

So maybe I would do better not to carry indignation on their behalf, let them carry their own!

But perhaps here we can be gentler on ourselves and therefore on others with less striving and more being?

Juliee

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

A poem posted elsewhere by Liz which more effectively expresses what I'm trying to convey

The Pureland master Inagaki wrote a short poem:

Just as you are…
Really…
Just as you are

Juliee

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Hi Juliee,
I hear your anger/frustration. I have heard it before and I can see where you are coming from, but with utmost respect I'd like to question it a little. I believe that speaking in very big terms about spirituality and religion upsets some people because it stretches their understanding and fundamental view of it. I clearly can see the challenge and risk anything unknown poses to us. It throws up everything and sometimes in order to feel safe in our insecurity we want to equalize and down play distinctions made in a many-layered teaching.

When Jesus says “be perfect as your father in Heaven” he doesn't disparage or dispair of people that might be in the +50 yoga group or the like. He encourages all of us to reach higher, regardless of where we are now. He truly knows that there is a mountain to climb and hey, why not? To hear of views and visions from a vantage point higher than our own doesn't mean that we are “looked down” upon:)

Love, seems to me, be the encompassing context which allows for the whole range of individuality without loosing the tension of a challenge that makes us go that extra mile.

Just as you are, yes, but with eyes towards the horizon

Re: Earning A Black Belt In Zen

Hi Bjorn

When Jesus says “be perfect as your father in Heaven” he doesn't disparage or dispair of people that might be in the +50 yoga group or the like. He encourages all of us to reach higher, regardless of where we are now. He truly knows that there is a mountain to climb and hey, why not?
Love, seems to me, be the encompassing context which allows for the whole range of individuality without loosing the tension of a challenge that makes us go that extra mile.

Exactly, this is what I'm trying to say.

Juliee