Lines of Development

I'm hungry for as many examples of lines of development as possible. Ken says:

“ALL of the major developmental models have actually examined a particular developmental line . Piaget studied the cognitive line; Kohlberg, the moral line; Loevinger, the line of self-concept development; Graves, the developmental line of values; Maslow, the developmental line of needs; Gilligan, the moral line in females; and so on. Each of those developmental lines were shown to unfold in stages or levels.

• Cognitive (awareness of what is)
  
• moral (awareness of what should be)
  
• emotional or affective (the full spectrum of emotions)
• interpersonal (how I socially relate to others
• needs (such as Maslow's needs hierarchy
• self-identity (who am I?)
• aesthetic (self expression, beauty, art, meaning)
• psychosexual “which in it's broadest sense means the entire spectrum of Eros (gross to subtle to causal)  <—– !?!?
• spiritual (where “spirit” is viewed not just as Ground, and not just as the highest stage, but as it's own line of unfolding)
  
• values (what a person considers most important ie Spiral Dynamics)

Re: Lines of Development

Re: Lines of Development

“So for the moment we're stuck with mostly UL lines of development. I'm sure Ken would have given lots more examples of lines in other quadrants, if there were any.”

Kinesthetic?

But that is so silly. When you get to turquoise in kinesthetic, what does that really mean? You move “as infinity”? Like when Tiger Woods plays golf it's like watching the causal winds made from that impeccable swing extending into eternal divine bliss!

I saw somewhere here that someone made a distinction in lines of development, dividing them up into Ego-lines and Abilities-lines, where was that again? Then you could perhaps theorize that Abilities-lines (like kinesthetic or aesthetic or musical, etc) doesn't go through the Spiral-stages, but got a different kind of development?

“I can imagine any area of interest-i.e. astronomy-that has contained within it much development over time, but astronomy itself isn't a developmental line is it?  Are there lines within astronomy for example?”

There is a line they don't talk about very often, but it's called the BS-line, and it's proven to be very useful.

No, just kidding!

:P

Re: Lines of Development

That definitely makes sense.  So I might outline a possible approach to “locate” a line in the Lower Right for instance.  As you said Pelle:

“All of the UL lines of development have UR correlates”

1. Cognition would be the UL line associated with mathematics (unless theres a “math” line in there also(?)).
   
2. In the UR, we can easily imagine that whatever part of the brain that does calculations “Biomathematically” would have a line there.

1. Red - Basic counting and written numbers - 1,2,3,4…
   
2. Amber / Blue - Algebra and simple formulas that allow for accounting for instance. 2+2=4, 2-x=-1
   
3. Orange - Scientific math.  Pythagoras and all those Greek guys up to Newton and calculus and further (experts please chime in if you're out there).  Allowing for explosions in areas as architecture, investing, astronomy, chemistry, electronics, etc. - insert calc equation.
   
4. Green - Gets fuzzy for me here. I'll guess at Einstein with relativity, but then again maybe he was Turquoise or something, and Newton was teal… Clearly we need an integral mathematician to clear up this area–which i'm not…- E=mc^2
   

Re: Lines of Development

There might be some useful discussion on this thread starting here, and then we were just talking a good deal about lines (mostly artistic) over here (if you didn't see it).

There is actually a mathematical line of development. And I'm stuck somewhere in pre-long-division …

Gardner's Multiple Intelligences model is great for 'lines across all 4Q' in the sense that he directly links each intelligence (line, stream) with jobs, professions in society (LR) and qualifies them by how much they are valued by cultures (LL).

Math - (scientist, mathematician, accountant)
Language - (poet, writer, journalist)
Spatial - (painter, sculptor, architect, map-maker, jet pilot, navigator)
Musical -(musician, composer, singer, arranger)
Kinesthetic - (dancer, athlete, inventor)
Interpersonal - (salesperson, politician, psychologist, therapist)
Intrapersonal - (psychologist, philosopher, motivational speaker)
Naturalist - (biologist, zoologist)

Daniel Goleman, and other theorists on the subject, does a great job of exploring emotional and social intelligence across 4Q as well. Note, for example, how much emotional intelligence has cptured the interest of the business world, very much as a functional systemically important reality.

All of these lines … it's easy to see how they can or do have multiplicitous 'sub-lines' or what-have-you. Mr. Flow psychologist (whose name I will never be able to spell nor pronounce until I hear it said . .Milihay Czfvdghsvadgvffvskvdsfmilihay) help coin the idea of

domain - field - channel

Which can be thought of as the LR breakdown and construction of these lines.

So, for example, in the domain of music there is the field of singing and the channel of the voice - in addition to the field of instrumental musicianship through the channels of trumpet, violin, cello, piano, clarinet, oboe, guitar, drums, etc., etc. etc. Then there’s conducting, composition, arrangement, “musical supervision” for movies and TV, etc. etc.

Now we're getting into serious details. None the less, they are all the musical line.

Science and mathematics? Forget it. It's endless. As with the kinesthetic line (yoga, weightlifting, dancing, running, acting, typing, using tools … . football, basketball, baseball, hockey, skating, gymnastics … the Olympics are coming up …)

All of this is just mostly to speak of the talents, except that I see interpersonal, intrapersonal, emotional and social intelligence as self-related lines.

I think looking into the LL is really interesting with regard to altitude and the lines, especially the talent lines.

Third-person constructed fiction –where there is an objective element present between the 1st person perspective of the creator and the 2^nd person perspective of an audience (or vice versa) does not appear but in cultures where there is an orange altitude. So too, with journalism –as we are seeing now in China with regard to Tibet (i.e. NOT third person.)

Music would be a study in itself, if we can differentiate it from lyrics and also with lyrics. We are all familiar with ‘the devil’s music’ no? Which really has mostly to do with the expression or elicitation of certain emotions and behaviors. Heck, bring dancing in there too then. So much has to do with what is accepted in a society.

I am really interested in how each level, stage or station deals with emotions and their expression. Each level, past magenta, has it’s own unique ways of dealing with them (in addition to the fact that each level brings news emotional expansion and sensitivity –and new emotions). How cultures deal with that is very important and reflect altitude as well. Boys don’t cry, girls don’t laugh; boys don’t get hurt, girls don’t get sexually aroused, etc.

Anyway, enough from me for now!

Re: Lines of Development

Killer post Tim!

Hit the nail on the head.  Each line, no matter which quadrant, seem intangible, but you give the domain-channel-field example and it clicked!  I am going to check out those books you mentioned.  Gotta lotta reading to do. Thanks!

Re: Lines of Development

BTW, Tim–just for sake of getting way ahead of myself–do you think each line itself  has it's own inherent Wilber-Combs Lattice?  Does any level of any line have the horizontal state dimension inherent to it?

Maybe gross subtle causal and nondual don't apply to all lines because I remember in some audio Ken was saying in reference to the different states in existance how matter could have a gas liquid solid “state” for example.  Or electricity with a binary state on or off etc… Different lines have different states, maybe?

Re: Lines of Development

BTW, Tim–just for sake of getting way ahead of myself–do you think each line itself  has it's own inherent Wilber-Combs Lattice?  Does any level of any line have the horizontal state dimension inherent to it?

Maybe gross subtle causal and nondual don't apply to all lines because I remember in some audio Ken was saying in reference to the different states in existance how matter could have a gas liquid solid “state” for example.  Or electricity with a binary state on or off etc… 

Well, first, I feel very strongly that at least “the talents” –music, space, drama, math, etc. – are all fundamentally part of the Logos.

This means, for example, Ken is fond of saying “You don’t need very much to get a Kosmos going. All you need is Spirit, a Logos and some kind of Eros.” So, for example, physicists say that immediately following the Big Bang the laws of mathematics were present. I feel very strongly this must also be true for all of the arts (which emerge as talents, etc.) The laws of music, or those potentials which would become music were fundamentally there. And then through evolution driven by Eros, a few billion years later … music as we know it. Ya know? I don’t know how this applies to the other lines (i.e. aside from the talents) but it at least on the surface seems it should be true. Maybe it’s easier for the talents because it’s easier to take and objective view (and I’m getting caught up  in that too? Possibly.).

Now, as far as States? –the lines across the WC-Lattice. Personally I don’t see how they couldn’t be. In the sense that everything manifests from The Causal –hence “The Cause.” Thus, in between, the Subtle, and then ultimately, no matter where you look the Nondual.

I do think each states has things “particular” to it, that, say, don’t have much import on the others … but that is also just my feeling and opinion (based on experiences, intuitions, what appear to be insights, etc.)
 

But the heart of the whole thing would be that there is some Causal factor to begin with and then, through time’s simply ongoing and through evolution Karma is generated. Karma, which as I understand it, ultimately exhausted at the Causal. I may be getting confused the “Higher Subtle” –as in Vedanta –and the Causal as Emptiness (See Wilber Eye to Eye ) but I seem to recall in like One Taste an interview reprinted from WIE magazine where Ken and Cohen are talking and Ken explains the “place’ where your karmas ultimately exist. Thus after death, the gross burns away, the subtle burns away and then at a certain point you come to terms with your ultimate karma –whether you killed twelve nuns or left your true love. Thus, then the process of involution begins again. (Kool stuff!)

But, at any rate, Emptiness is not other than Form and Form is not other than Emptiness. Again, I think there are “operative’ things relevant only to Gross state existence. Some of the lines might be that. But … I think it’s clear that anything that occurs has to have some sort of fundamental Causal essence. Further crystallized in Subtle, fully crystallized in Gross –the furthest away from what that initial “ “ ultimately is. Something probably unspeakable.

Anyway, … we did have a discussion about this sort of thing regarding at least the talents. It started on a thread here with Pelle and then, through Arthur’s suggestion, we were able to some extent to discuss it with Ken on an ISC concall. I don’t have a multiplex account right now but the link is here. And the call clips are:

IS Call on Ch. 4 'States and Stages': Part 2, Ken Wilber  

Ken chats with Sweden's Pelle Billing on the January 'States and Stages' call….

Posted: 03/01/07

IS Call on Ch. 4 'States and Stages': Part 3, Ken Wilber  

Long-time ISC member (and prolific forum poster!) Tim Melody chats with Ken on the January 'States and Stages' call….

Posted: 03/09/07

As a matter of fact, I have to be honest, I still need to listen to my own clip once again and probably a few more times because although he gives “the generic answer” as ‘yes’ what he explains I just super-complicated and I can claim to have fully grasped it yet. (None the less, I sit there going. “Mmm mmm. Yeah. Sure.” )

Cartosys: Different lines have different states, maybe?

Actually, this seems to in some sense be true also. In Integral Psychology, other places, Ken has identified gross, subtle, causal as different lines. Then there is also “faith” (E.g. James Fowler) and spirituality as a sperate line.

Hmm. All of this is a really good line of questioning!

Thanks.

Tim

PS. You know, you mentioned levels having a WC-Lattice and I think this is true too. Maybe this comes out most in the idea of a daemon being Spirit's push, call (etc.) to a higher stage. This is something I was able to talk with Ken about in another call that hasn't be published anywhere yet. (Although there is a daemon call in the ISC calls, so maybe check it out.) My question was essentialy 'what is a deamon?' (i.e. what are it's involutionary factors, and state factors.) We talked about that, but he said along with the conversation that one's daemon could simply be a higer stage -and not only did this ring true at the time but the more I have thought about it, it really is an important insight. Many people, right now, are living with Turquoise daemons. A daemon (if I using an unfamiliar term) is an innate calling or drive from Spirit toward something that, when an individual has it, simply cannot be ignored. You have to act upon it, or it will turn into a demon. And haunt you for the rest of your life. the daemon is how God is to speak or act through you, or the Voice of God in you (or that sort of thing). So anyway, thus, many pople alive now are living with Turquoise -higher stage-daemons; many, right here within this community. It is what prompots such things as shoting yourself half-way across the world once you've read your first Wilber book to be a part of Integral Institute, or something along those lines. Becasue this seems to be how this “thing” is going to be realizes. And this “thing” is simply turquoise reality. Cool, huh. So, yes. It does seem like Levels have WC-Lattice reality.

Note: The post below this was supposed to go after your first post.

Re: Lines of Development

Yeah, I think they are just fundamentally different Patterns (Bigl P) in the Kosmos - innate AQAL potentials and unfoldings, probabilities, inevitablities, that sort of thing. This is especially true when you go into the realization that different lines cut across different species. From an UR perspective one could say something like “well, they evolved and were then passed on” which may be true in at least some part, but how did they come about in the first place? Selection pressures from all four quadrants. It's certainly an interesting topic to continue discussing.

More below -after your next post. :-)

Re: Lines of Development

Hi, I'm Mark, new to the integral pod.

I'm going to try to flesh out my view of what lines are. 

I'd like to pick up on an author Tim mentioned: Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (I happen to be staring at his book Flow right now on my bookshelf, otherwise I would certainly mutilate and butcher the name as well).

I've ruminated on Csikszentmihalyi (M. Cs. from now on) and Howard Gardner for a while now, and I think there's a connection.

Flow is about the psychology of optimal human experience, and how one can experience it. In other words, M. Cs. talks about the gross world correlates required to access the subtle state regularly.

He makes it very simple.  Flow happens when there are clear goals, a clear objective or challenge clearly defined, and clear feedback about whether you are achieving that goal or not.  The feedback leads to a refinement of skills–when you improve the skills to meet the challenge, the feedback improves.  The flow state happens when you're getting “yes I'm meeting the goal” feedback constantly– good good good good good….

In general, however, what's been found is that that same skills meeting the same challenges over time leads to the feeling of “flow” fading out.  In order to get that feeling of flow back, one must raise the challenges and increase one's skill level to meet them.  Then, again one feels flow.

There's much more I could write, but for now I'm going finish with one statement.

I think that another way to define a line is to say that it is the “skills” portion that interacts with the defined challenge and the feedback on whether that challenge is being met. of what M. Cs. has defined. 

There is much more to say here… but I'll stop with this. 

What if you could define a line as: “the conduit between the gross and the subtle bodies” ?

Interesting, anyone?  I'm looking for feedback on this post… ; )

Re: Lines of Development

Great thread!

My guess with mathematics is that orange would correspond to the ability to use mathematics as a tool along with the laws of fysics, the laws that objectively describes universe developed in late 1600.

Then you could see green mathematics with Gödel and his Incompleteness Theorem, which states the impossibility to create a complete system of axioms in mathematical arithmetics. This has to me similarities to Kuhn's concept of paradigms, i.e. all scientific theories rests on a non-scientific foundation - paradigm - that cannot be logically justified. In the end, this leads to relativism and scientific anarcy - anything goes - according to Feyerabend.

Or maybe Gödel is Teal, since he recognizes the degrees of complexity of systems…

The pythagoreanism in early Greek mathematics could perhaps be seen as a mythic purple attempt to find god in the equations.


With music performance, I can see both state-aspects - the way you relate to the music you perform - and stage-aspects - levels of development in first understanding the depth of a piece and then to perform from this depth.

Wow, this is cool, but complex… I think…

Kristian

Re: Lines of Development

Y'all got my thinker buzzing again all over the place. :-)

It's probably just the case that more study and Integral literature is needed on these subjects. I do know that when I was looking into it briefly the “history of math” is clearly marked out in stages. Even more interesting: when algebra appeared for the first time known in one place in the world, all of a sudden it starts showing up in diverse and completely unconnected cultures. So right around the same era it appears say in Europe, then in South America, then India, etc. That's not the literal history, I'm just casually remembering, but it is something like that. And clearly now we have vision-logical math all over the place in game-theory and so on. Another tricky, must-be-aware-of thing about math and the talent lines is that is seems quite more than clear that someone can be at a lower stage of development and appear to be working at a higher one. i.e. someone genuinely concrete operational working with what is ultimately vision-logic math constructions. I found a study where a university professor did a test/survey and found that 92% of physics students were NOT using formal operations. Rather, to put it another way, they were assuming orange math and physics principals in an amber fashion. They could get the answers correct but they were dumbfounded when asked to explain the principals behind them. In a way this highlights the whole fallacy of amber-ish type schooling, where you just mechanically memorize things and so on, rather than learn how to think (the orange but especially great green imperative).

Anyway, so, in my own studies in drama, theatre, etc. a very obvious developmental pattern jumps out right from the start. We don't really know anything about magenta forms of genuine drama (and no, the “ritual roots” thing, if anyone is familiar, is not really correct). In Western history, we have this glorious sort of emergence in Ancient Greece, which was clearly due to a center of gravity at orange which allowed it to significantly emerge and develop while it encompassed the earlier levels (magenta, red, amber). Transferring to Rome, however, we have a clear case of Red all over. The whole structure was based on power; actors, mimes, comedians, etc. were enslaved and there was a good deal that was, quite frankly, along the AQAL structure of a strip club today or the most simplistic levels of the porno industry. In large part, for this reason, the great over-take of amber outlawed it for hundreds of years. None the less, the Medieval theatre is a clear-cut case of amber in so many respects it's almost funny. With the Renaissance and the Enlightenment we have an orange center of gravity theatre emerging once again and being realized far more than it ever had been before. The structure of all of these is too complicated to go into here, but one of the signatures of an orange theatre -especially from a LR perspective -is a “star” surrounded by a supporting ensemble. We see this still in movies and shows today. Only in the 20th Century do we then clearly see green emerging and it has in fact been all over the place in many various forms. One of the signature, of course, is how it tries to break down, deconstruct and even viciously attack the orange model and any shades of amber. A lot of pathology there, but in healthy forms you have Brecht, for example. Vision-logic is clearly emerging in movies and I in fact think there have been second-tier dramatic individuals since at least the end of the 19th Century. (Stanislavsky and Grotowski are two clear examples.) I think the enormous complexity of the art form, or its potentials help foster this. And there a lot of talk about game-theory an so on.

But I wanted to say this too.

The lines create what we should be calling -if only just because it's fun- the Horizontal Spectrum of Consciousness.

I had a sort of 'concessionary revelation' last night that Ken's work and writing, in part due to what he has been trying to accomplish, really does leave one with sort of an orange impression, even though it's not orange at all.

When I read Howard Gardner's work you get this immediate clarity, impression and feeling of great diversity. He says, for example, he pluralized intelligence, and he was instrumental in pluralizing development. Everybody's different, and unique, and you go away with the feeling of such and in a real hard science concrete sort (that is IMP very much) of way, and you see it in nature, animals, species, etc. too.

It's not at all that Ken does not include this. He in fact is more inclusive of it than anyone. But perhaps it has to do with emphasis, the task sought to accomplish and maybe even just writing style, even thinking style.

So, in other words, you read about the multiple lines … but even that, the term “lines” is a very orange-ish sort of idea. Gives the impression of the straight and narrow. And then this also kind of gave me the revelation of maybe understanding some of Gardner's recent criticism of Ken in Five Minds for the Future. Where he says (from memory) “I am uneasy with anything in which everything fits into a neat and clean model.” This may mean, in other words, what I am saying: you get this impression -even if you understand it clearly and vividly as second-tier -of 'orange-ish-ness.'

So, the 'solution' as I see it, is to simply start talking about and emphasizing the “lines” as this Horizontal Spectrum of Consciousness, an incredibly diverse rainbow of colors, culminate hues, combinations, etc.

I get this idea, not only from my own previous thoughts, but from the idea that the Gardner associated project at Harvard is called “Spectrum” but it's the horizontal spectrum. Music, math, poetry, space, etc.

You know, it's not just that people are often going to arrive at their station in life and more or les stay there (i.e. a particular level) but the reality is that most people are also going to develop only one or a few of the Horizontal Spectrum Bands (lines, colors! :- ). Or better said, will focus their lives on one particular line as the dominant. And thisis what they are good at too!  And this is a right and this should also be honored. (The possible 'typology' talked about in the other thread I linked above highlights this.)

I really find this interesting because I am certain that the entire universe, or Kosmos, can be looked at through each of these spectrum lenses -which means higher consciousness tends to reveal the Kosmos as that particular line, intelligence, spectrum band.

For example, mathematicians clearly see the entire Kosmos as structured out of math. Spatial wizards, geometry, painters, can see the entire universe as geometry. I, for myself, have seen the entire Kosmos as constructed of music. Drama is common too and there is at least on writing that I know of where the writer is clearly seeing the entire Kosmos as composed of the elements particular to dramatic talent.

But this is a horizontal spectrum (where which obviously I speak of it at higher stage or maybe deeper states). The mathematician doesn't see, or isn't conscious necessarily, of the musical reality. The musician not necessarily conscious of the dramatic reality. And so on through the horizontal spectrum.

Make sense?

Lord, I've rambled enough!

Re: Lines of Development

Thanks Tim and to all for your contributions to the thread (and therefore my insight into these matters). This is one rockin' rabbit hole folks!

“I really find this interesting because I am certain that the entire universe, or Kosmos, can be looked at through each of these spectrum lenses -which means higher consciousness tends to reveal the Kosmos as that particular line, intelligence, spectrum band.

For example, mathematicians clearly see the entire Kosmos as structured out of math. Spatial wizards, geometry, painters, can see the entire universe as geometry. I, for myself, have seen the entire Kosmos as constructed of music. Drama is common too and there is at least on writing that I know of where the writer is clearly seeing the entire Kosmos as composed of the elements particular to dramatic talent.

The mathematician doesn't see, or isn't conscious necessarily, of the musical reality. The musician not necessarily conscious of the dramatic reality.

Re: Lines of Development

The pythagoreanism in early Greek mathematics could perhaps be seen as a mythic purple attempt to find god in the equations.

Wow, this is cool, but complex… I think…

Re: Lines of Development

Pelle is on to something about the dominant monad thingey (I always laugh when I say those words). But there are increasingly levels of complexity in the two lower left quadrants, and you can check those out in the graphs in SES. Gebser is in the LL, and forms of systemic organization in the LR.

But it does get kind of whacky, because of what Pelle mentioned. You can have a member of a magic-mythic society these days with a cell phone. They will likely still be organized in tribes, but may have access to artifacts created by those many levels of development above them.

I think Hargens has developed some lines in all quadrants related to Ecology (you might have to wait for his book–or I could be wrong), he's great and loves this kind of stuff.

Re: Lines of Development

It would be interesting to discuss lines of development in the LL. Has Ken or anyone ever done that? Of course he discusses values and morals, but what about aesthetic, kinesthetic, ego, musical, mathematical, intercultural? It would be interesting to look at the correlates to all these in all the quadrants.

David

Re: Lines of Development

I have more and more in my life started to see the importance of lines when looking at the relative self. It really is one of the best contributions of the integral model, to be able to see how diverse and unique we all are in terms of our development. I took up a question earlier in this thread which I believe no one adressed. Namely this:

When you get to turquoise in kinesthetic, what does that really mean? You move “as infinity”? Like when Tiger Woods plays golf it's like watching the causal winds made from that impeccable swing extending into eternal divine bliss!

What I really mean is: How do you map the development of lines? Can you use the altitude model of Infrared, Magenta, Red, Amber, Orange, Green, Teal, Turquoise, Indigo, Violet, Ultraviolet, Clear Light, etc when discussing other lines apart from like Values and Self?

What about the mentioned kinesthetic, or musical, or interpersonal? Is Indigo in the music line the equivalent of heavenly music? And when you reach Violet in the interpersonal line, do you interact with other people so that they… well, starts to worship you for your kindness, or what?

How do we map developmental lines, if the Altitude model clearly isn't working? Or am I interpreting the Altitude model incorrectly?

Re: Lines of Development

You're on to it.  Wilber suggests each line develops through each altitude as you mentioned.  In a person's psychograph each line is usually at different levels, but a person has an overall “center of gravity,” which I see as an average of all the different altitudes each line is at.   Thats when we generalize someone as being “green” or  whatever, we always gotta know it's just a generalization. The psychograph is much more specific.

Re: Lines of Development

Is. Is Indigo in the music line the equivalent of heavenly music?

Actually, this pertains to what we were discussing above and on some of the other threads I linked to.

Probably … we don't know what Indgo in the musical line really is. But . . yeah, I would venture a guess it's heavenly music. (LOL)

What is interesting or a huge tangled knot to tease apart is, again, the States in the lines. No doubt there has been “Heavenly inspired” music for millenia. (I'm thinking of that song right now that my kids just had playing on Shrek: “I heard there was a secret chord, that David played and it pleased the Lord …”)

But this is probably a case of states manifesting or involving into certain levels. So, subtle inspiration into amber music. You could probably apply this to any line. BUT … the talents, arts, sciences are really, really tricky.

I guess, if we follow Piaget, ordinary mathematical development follows a really set pattern. Kids can add and subtract, then multiply and divide, then do algebra, then calculous -there is increasing complexity.

But as a computational capacity you have prodigies and savants telling you the day of the week it was on some prehistoric date chosen at random, or calculating the probabilities in a game of black jack.

I guess if we go with ordinary development …well, you don't get symphonies until orange. This is a mjor increase in complexity from a song with no accompaniment or an atonal chant.

So, from that standpoint … I don't know if we know what's next.

Re: Lines of Development

So, from that standpoint … I don't know if we know what's next.


Sweeeet…the post-integral quote of the day!  :-)

love

e

Re: Lines of Development

This thread inspired a blog today.

(Thanks e.)

Re: Lines of Development

Hi all,

Just catching up on some threads here, I saw Is' post:

“kinesthetic?”

According to BBG there is an indigo/violet kinesthetic level and it's called Michael Jordan…

Frans

Re: Lines of Development

Sweeet.

:P

Re: Lines of Development

I was thinking… when it comes to an individual's psychograph, who is actually in charge of determining how it looks? Who is the judge?

It must be hard to do a credible/honest one yourself, since all kinds of Shadow and Ego components could stand in the way. And how could someone else, since they don't have direct acces to your inner world? It must be hard to determine something like a psychograph from mere observation, or? But if so, for how long, and how, should the observations take place? Through psychoanalysis sessions costing 300$/h?

(The Kinesthetic line is an exception!)

:P

Re: Lines of Development

This *excellent* article may help you is… ;)

Re: Lines of Development

Oh, thanks, Ewan.

Let’s hear it for 3-2-1!

Re: Lines of Development

trying again… being new at this I replied to a post instead of the thread.  Interestingly, the next day after this post I experienced my body as regressing to a very tense time in terms of tension during yoga practice.  If that's my only feedback so be it.

Re: Lines of Development

Re: Lines of Development

What if you could define a line as: “the conduit between the gross and the subtle bodies” ?

In general, however, what's been found is that that same skills meeting the same challenges over time leads to the feeling of “flow” fading out.  In order to get that feeling of flow back, one must raise the challenges and increase one's skill level to meet them.  Then, again one feels flow.

Re: Lines of Development

Mark:
What if you could define a line as: “the conduit between the gross and the subtle bodies” ?

Pelle:
Yes, in a poetic kind of way a highly developed line of development could function as a conduit between the gross and subtle, but we have to be very very careful here on a theoretic level. Gross and subtle bodies correspond to states, whereas lines of development correspond to structure-stages, so your phrase above can never be used as any kind of general definition, but simply as a specific observation phrased poetically.

Pelle and Cartosys/bryan, when I was a youth playing sports, soccer, baseball, or just playground whatever, I often had amazing flow state experiences, memories of which I can still call up right now.  (By the way I'm sure I honor M. Cs.' work due to these childhood experiences)
 
These flow states were due to me just being more aware than the peers I was playing with.  This awareness allowed me to always excel at youth sports.  I have many memories of goals, home runs, catches, soccer dribbling moves that I pulled off, scoring 8 points a game in youth basketball.

These subjective experiences of participating in youth sports were optimal experiences.

The thing about these states is they were a result of me using kinesthetic skills along with mental awareness about both the kinesthetic skills and the outer situation which demanded a specific response in the moment. 

The responses required in the moment were entirely governed by the rules of the game.  Score goals.  Hit the ball.  Catch the ball.  Pass the ball. 

They were joyful experiences, structured by this wonderful cultural creation: sports.

I think I first understood about different skill sets interacting with each other to serve one goal as a result of these sports experiences.  Bodily skills, mind skills, different skills being used at the same time.

I offer this description because it is not poetic, it happens.  Perhaps what I’m describing is translation, multiple lines within a level combining with each other to make the experience of that level ideal. 

When a level is translated ideally, it creates this wonderful source of energy for all the following higher levels.

I think of lines as different skill sets within a level, creating a cognitive “network” for the rules of the game for that level. 

And of course, the rules are set by culture, by the LL. 

Re: Lines of Development

Cartosys: This looks like an optimized development pattern, or the ideal way in which a line is traversed

I think relevant lines make a LEVEL easier to traverse.

Re: Lines of Development

Cartosys: This looks like an optimized development pattern, or the ideal way in which a line is traversed

Mark:  I think relevant lines make a LEVEL easier to traverse.


I should have said something like “…the ideal way in which a line moves through levels.”  A Hybrid of both! :)