Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Last year in Elightennext magazine
there was an article with the title:What Ever Happened to 
the Vikings? by Elizabeth Debold. It deals with the shocking impacts the Scnadinavian style gender neutrality has on men.

I'm Finnish, and have all my life lived in Finland. Finland does not officially belong to Scandinavia, that consists of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. For practical purposes Finland is usually included in the Scandinavian countries, as our
society is structurally similar to these other Nordic countries. And we too have mostly Viking blood circulating in our veins.

Therefore it felt confusing to me to read that article as I cannot recognize here the kind of subjugated and feminine miserable men that were described in the article.  I have been to my dismay observing that this article is frequently referred to, and quoted at Gaia by readers who have taken the claims of Elizabeth
Debold at face value as a fact.

Debold: Sleuthing a bit, I discovered that in 2000, a feminist group at Stockholm University demanded that all urinals be removed because they were discriminatory to women. Talk about penis envy! I had no idea that this was how
culture was evolving in Sweden, Holland, and all the Scandinavian
countries that are leading the gender-equality revolution.


Fringe groups have a right to demand the most strange things. It is an essential part of freedom of thought in modern societies. This does not mean that people bother to pay any attention to such statements. I have never seen any
discussion on this topic. And there are urinals in all men's toilets.
My husband does however admit that he don't always use the urinal,
because it can be smelly and dirty.

Debold:Sweden and the other small homogeneous nations of Northern Europe have generous maternal and paternal leave policies, free access to higher education,
affordable child care, and more. They have legislated a smorgasbord
of policies designed to level the playing field between women and men
that make my feminist heart beat faster. But it never occurred to me
that as women took to their feet, men would sit down—on the john,
no less!


We do really have these generous policies, but it has not put men down. It
has helped to create a more equal society, where good health care and
good education is available to all. It has also created a possibility for mothers to stay at home with their small children without fully sacrificing their careers. I cannot see at all from where comes the idea that these social benefits would draw the men down.

In Finland women can have possibility for a three year maternity leave from their job for each child. If the woman decides to return to her old job after
max three years, the employer has to take her back and give her a job
of similar responsibility and payment as she had before the leave. If
she is pregnant again she may stay only a few weeks or months in her
job, before again having a new three year maternity leave, and then
again return to the old job, she practically left 6 years ago. Pretty
many women actually utilize this possibility, because the government
pays monthly support money to them for taking care of their small children at
home, and not utilizing the communal day care.This has however
created a situation where where women get less paid than men for the
same job, as the employers are afraid of women getting pregnant.In Finland men can get only a few weeks maternity leave. I suppose in Sweden they are
more equal in this issue. Anyway there too few men utilize this
possibility. In which ways are men put down by this? This system creates the possibility for women to truly enjoy their motherhood without sacrificing fully their careers.

The problem of subjugated men I have never seen discussed here in any newspaper or magazine, because men are not perceived as subjugated here. There are however other specific problems of men that are
being discussed. And some men have tried to start men's movements,
but it does not interest too many men at all.
People here are also pretty concerned about the fact that boys don't do in school
as well as girls. Books are being published on how to raise the
boys in a way that better enhances their boyhood and their future
manhood. I just finished reading one of those books.

I have 30 and 32 year old adult sons. I have no observation from the time they were in school of gender neutralizing indoctrination.

The problems women feel they have in relation to gender issues are: they still do most of the household work even if they have a full time job. Also domestic violence is a severe problem here.

Irmeli

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Thanks for the clarification, Irmeli.  I read that article and it has haunted me since.  The article was very believable and I had never heard of “gender neutralization” before.  Your input serves as a reminder that no publication is free from fact-picking and sensationalism (after all, even EnlightenNext needs to make sales!).

Bryan

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Hi Irmeli

You said: “I have no observation from the time they were in school of gender neutralizing indoctrination.”

Sorry to seem to contradict you about your own experience but….I think one of the things that the article was pointing to was along the lines of the personal comments you made on another group about the same article….

In those other comments you said that, thankfully, you let your sons “run free” and to develop their physical attributes and risk taking etc. Unfortunately the (mostly female?) teachers at your sons' school, according to your comments on the other thread  if I understood them correctly, said that your sons were “out of control” and that they couldn't sit at a desk. Your healthy response was “why should they!?” My thoughts exactly! :-)

I think Debold's article was pointing to this attempt, mostly by female teachers, to control some boys and not let them have the kind of physical freedom that you gave your sons.

I work in dozens of schools across the UK every year and I see this dynamic happening regularly. I notice that many -certainly not all-  female teachers, when scolding a boy to sit down or be quiet etc, will do so in a way that has (too) much emotional intensity to it and that effectively shames the boy. When I see the same kind of intervention by many ( but not all) male teachers it is done in a “cleaner” way, less emotional intensity, a more staightforward matter of fact way - “these are the rules, follow them or get out” kind of feeling to it. The boy is not shamed as much.

With not being able to sit down and concentrate as well as girls, and therefore being perpetually told they are noisy or “bad”, and that most of the girls are quiet and therefore “good”, and with school curriculum becoming increasingly academic in theuir nature, (certainly in the UK and even for young primary school classes), the unconscious message going to many exuberant boys is “there is something wrong with the way you are”.

So these boys start clamping down on themselves and become full of self-doubt. Thankfully it seems your boys had a parent who didn't share the school's attitude, and they have grown up unaffected by it. That's great. But there are plenty of men who haven't escaped it so easily.

I agree with your other point that if Debold was extrapolating from the small number of people she interviewd to the whole male population of Scandinavia, well clearly that's ludicrous. But, I think I remember her saying something along the lines that she was aware that she was really only looking at sensitive, academic-type males in mostly urban areas.

Also, I think the internal condition of many senstitve men, which the article was mostly about, is largely a separate issue from things like maternity or paternity leave, or doing housework, or domestic violence.

Anyway, I always enjoy your posts and the perspectives you present, along with the insights into your own culture that they contain.

All The Best

James

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

James: I think Debold's article was pointing to this attempt, mostly by female
teachers, to control some boys and not let them have the kind of
physical freedom that you gave your sons.

When I said that I have no observation of gender neutral indoctrination in our schools I  mean claims like this done by Debold: “It’s all part of the Anti-Sexism Awareness Training that begins in kindergarten, through which the schools,
supported by the government, are deliberately trying to switch the
accepted gender roles.”

I have no observations of this. Schools have been traditionally very controlling of  children's behavior. In Finland I often hear the claim that schools were made for the dutiful and obedient girls, and hence  schools are not good for boys. I don't quite agree with this either. Schools were initially made for boys, and from the very beginning trying to control their behavior, and teaching strict obedience to the boys was on the agenda.
A change that apparently has happened unintentionally, and that has been detrimental to the boys, is maybe your excellent example of female teachers shaming the boys' behavior. As you mentioned boys very likely would do better with different approach male teachers could naturally provide.

James:I agree with your other point that if Debold was extrapolating from the
small number of people she interviewd to the whole male population of
Scandinavia, well clearly that's ludicrous. But, I think I remember her
saying something along the lines that she was aware that she was really
only looking at sensitive, academic-type males in mostly urban areas.

The problem is that I cannot spot the phenomenon of men being oppressed by women and having a suffering aura around them  among sensitive academic-type males either. Neither have I ever heard them complain about this.
Men here are very fast to complain about losing some of their rights and positions considering gender issues. The Vikings can defend themselves pretty well also in these matters. However my observation is that here men respect women more than in other traditions, and they respect also the female voice and opinion.  This is not a new phenomenon. It has old roots. And my personal opinion is that this is why the Nordic Countries are so advanced societies today.

Irmeli

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Deliberately trying to switch gender roles.  What a statement: “switch.”  Did no one view the article with an editing eye?  Even worse, presumably they did, and approved.  The article is to me distasteful in its entirety.

I agree with you from a distance, Irmeli, about the advances in your countries.  I have always felt that Canada would do well to adopt more strongly social policies and values distinguishing Northern European countries, but our politicians unfortunately pay heed to anti-red sentiments drifting northward.  Our current leader pandered quite heavily to the Bush administration, and his actions have been something of a disaster for progressive social policy in Canada.

Red (meaning deliberate consideration of social legislative design, among other things) is of course bad because it squelches business and entrepreneurialism.  This latter statement has been hammered into people for two or three generations, and covers the lie that the US economy is fundamentally state backed.  Most front-line (read: too expensive for corporate) innovation takes place in the fully government funded military and government run or sponsored health and education systems.  The transistor, advanced electronics, radar, the internet, computers, commercial airplanes, work automation, the laser, nuclear power and etc etc were all developed entirely or almost entirely in the military.  Pharmaceuticals, chemicals, GMO, big agriculture, expensive health deployments—these are substantially government funded.  Red?  Just look south.  It's a cover word for the rich keeping their money and power and from which “social engineering” is seen to detract.

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Tom (and everyone) -

This is from THE DAILYSHOW. Wyatt Cenac travels to Sweden to wake them up from their socialist nightmare.

It's a lot of fun, and is scientifically almost on level with Debold's article.

knudriis

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

James -

I am aware of problems in the school system.. So is the danish school system, and there is a lot of experimentation going on in Denmark in this area. Some of it good, some bad - but in the last ten years we have had an open debate about gender in schools and kindergartens. And the very fact that it is an open topic makes it less of a problem.

Maybe it's not a school thing? - I mean: why are girls sitting politely on their chairs with the right hand in the air, from the very moment they enter school? - could it be that girls from very early age are taught to behave “girl-like” - not by forcing them (like we do with boys in school), but by other and more subtle means.
This is a thesis in Bourdieu's “Masculine Domination”, i think. Haven't read it all, and I'm not a expert in the area. But looking around at my own and my friends kids, this makes sense to me.
 

knudriis

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Hi Knudriis

Great that it's an open subject now in Denmark. It's probably less so here, but some people are talking about it.

And yes the possible subtle “training” of girls to be “girl-like” at an early age may also be happening. Thanks for that insight.

James

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Knud and James, sorry, but I don't think girls need subtle training. I did my very best to raise my kids in a gender neutral way and affirm them as individuals, and my daughters were always quiet and well-behaved in class, and my son was - a lot more challenging. Given lego or sticks to play with, he always seemed to turn them into guns. It's not all nurture, there is a strong component of nature in how kids relate to their environment.

Thanks,

Nicole 

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

I second you on the strong nature component, Nicole.  I observed it in so many ways and contexts raising my daughters.

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Nicole and Tom -

This is such an interesting topic. A lot of research in anthropology is going on in this area, but I haven't had the time to keep myself updated.

I have a girl and two boys, and I must confess that my expectations, and therefore my unconsciousness actions,  have been different. I am not talking about shaming og surpressing certain behaviors, it's happening on a much more subtle level.

The next time you attend a babyshower, listen to the words of guests and parents. How many are saying “sweet boy” or “strong girl”?
We do our very, very best to empathize with these little beings, and we all try very hard to understand their unspoken intentions. By the words we choose as we are trying to put these intentions into the verbal domain, we are shaping the future of these little people.
Little girl graps a ball. Guest: “Oh, it's red”. Little boy grabs a ball. Guest: “Yeah, throw it to me”.

On the other hand, I have seen studies of brain development in girls and boys. These studies show that there are gender differences on a biological level, starting at the age of three.

I really don't know :)

knudriis

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Hi Nicole

Yes
I strongly agree. There may be some “cultural training” going on with
both boys and girls as Knudris points out with the “red ball / throw me
the ball” example, but I believe our hardwired nature is the more
intense drive.

And if whatever cultural training that may also
be present is badly out of sync with that built-in nature, then all
kinds of things get screwed up. Which I think is what is happening to a
lot of boys in many schools in many different countries.

James

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Right, James and Knudriis, and let's not forget the children who are transgendered or have other distinct individual differences. The important thing is to honour and nurture that “built-in nature” of each person, and that's a difficult task for any institution, whether it's a school or whatever it is. It's a lifework for us as parents, after all.

Nicole

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Agreed Nicole - thanks for that.  It's easy to be overcritical when people have tough jobs to do.

James

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

knudriis:I am aware of problems in the school system.. So is the danish school
system, and there is a lot of experimentation going on in Denmark in
this area.

This applies also to Finland. This theme has here been discussed a lot in the public arenas during the few last years. Also books have been published on this theme that are widely read. The main theme, I would say consensus practically, in this discussion is that boys should be allowed to be boys. Schools and kindergartens should find out ways to better appreciate the different way boys can most naturally evolve and learn.

knudriis: Maybe it's not a school thing? - I mean: why are girls sitting politely
on their chairs with the right hand in the air, from the very moment
they enter school? - could it be that girls from very early age are
taught to behave “girl-like” - not by forcing them (like we do with
boys in school), but by other and more subtle means.

The last book I read on this topic had the  title 'Rescue the boys'. It is written by a psychiatrist specialized on children. She says that parents often observe that they raise their kids somewhat differently, even two girls or two boys inside the family are often raised differently. She says mostly this is natural and instinctively correct. There are no approaches that would equally suit for all children. Different types and temperaments require different methods. The child influences  to the approach a parent takes, and this is exactly how it should be.

Irmeli
 

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

knudriis:The next time you attend a babyshower, listen to the words of guests
and parents. How many are saying “sweet boy” or “strong girl”?

My boys were many times told they were sweet, when they were small, simply just because they were sweet looking children. People often praised them to be oh so sweet. Once a mother at a sandbox, who had also two boys of the same age as mine, asked me why are my boys so sweet and beautiful .She and her boys looked weary and stressed, and I knew her boys spent long days in the communal day care center, and I also knew she probably did the best with her kids she could. So I said nothing, but I thought in my mind: all children are beautiful if they get a lot of appropriate attention and love. Then children just radiate wellbeing that is often experienced as sweetness.
I regularly called my boys mom's little angels, sweet little angels, or just little angels, not because I considered that to be a good educational strategy, but simply because I strongly felt them to be little angels. This has had no adverse effect on them in becoming men.

Irmeli

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Irmelin -

What about the other example? - “red ball”/”throw me the ball” - passivity/activity?
As I have become more aware of this, I see it all over. Which may be good, ok, bad or simply neutral, but I think we have to throw more light into this area.

Is there a biological explanation? - is it based in the way our neurons are hardwired? I don't think so, but I have little or no evidence to support my intuition.

knudriis

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Knud, I have no daughters myself, and all my grandchildren are also boys. Hence I have no close personal experience on raising girls.
I raised my children very intuitively, all the time observing what kind of response my communication created in them. This guided me. I had no intention of trying to break down typical gender behavior. I wouldn't do this with girls either.
It is possible that girls actually also encourage in their parents other type of response than the boys. I do not think it is about how the neurons are hardwired already in babies. It maybe more about existent morphogenetic grooves. I wouldn't fight against these. As a culture we build on the insights and successes of past generations. I respect that.

When I raised my children, my main focus was actually on the fact, that my children managed to  effectively activate in me all kinds of shadow stuff.
I focused developing strategies to be able to simultaneously work with these issues as I was with the children. I don't believe in controlling one's shadow stuff. It is not a good solution. At some point the control will break down, and the stuff that has been controlled, pours out in devastating ways. Because I did not believe in control in myself, I did not expect control of behavior from my children either.
This does not mean I did not set limits. However I did not do this by blaming or shaming the children. When my boys got out of control in a way that they did not anymore listen to me, or it all became senseless running around or fighting, I just picked up the other one, and held him until he calmed down. Usually he did scream and fight vehemently to get free. Simultaneously I felt deeply into my own anger and frustration. These holding sessions where times of processing difficult energies for both of us: the child did it by screaming, and I did it internally. When he had calmed down and stopped screaming, and I let him free. Usually he then run immediately to the other side of the room, but soon came back to me to give a hug. After a holding session with had again for a long period a calm coexistence.
I would probably do precisely the same thing with daughters. About the more gender specific issues I have no idea how those would turn out with daughters.

Irmeli

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Irmeli -
Sounds like you did a great job raising your kids! :) - It shows to anyone that each generation is stepping forward.

When I say “subtle”, I mean hardly noticable. no shaming, no surpression. I was at a garden party this saturday, and there were four kids little under 1 y.o. Three girls and a boy; the boy and one of the girls were able to walk a few steps. The girl was “clever”, the boy was “clever” and “strong”. He was not stronger than the girl, but in anyones very good intentions, they hoped for him to grow up and be a strong man. And clever, of course, but the girl was only supposed to be and become clever. 
This is subtle, this is not really surpression. Bourdieu (The Masculine Power) calls this kind of behavior “violence”, because he regard it as violence when we are not seeing the true and full potential of a person. I think violence is a strong word, but I see his point.

knudriis

Re: Thy Myth of Gender Neutrality in Scandinavia

Knud, I see your point. These things change gradually, when parents become aware of these limiting patterns in themselves. However I don't believe in rigidly applying new feminist (or masculinist) programs on small children.
To me much more important is however how to stop old traumas and patological shadow stuff to pass from generation to generation.It is also important to me that parents can truly support the individuation process of the child.

Irmeli