Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Jane – This event sounds so delightful and it would be wonderful to see, learn, & commune with you, and others out there in integral forum-land, again. But now it's less likely that I'll be signing up for this. I usually spend those winter holidays with my husband, family and / or friends; New Year's is a time of reunion for many of us.

This event is also quite expensive – and we've been having leaner times this year…. While it's not totally out of the question for me, more than likely I will simply be raising a big toast to you and the other experiencers from afar …..

Sigh,

Mary

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Well, i might have to find you in the pre/post days of the conference for a vizzy…

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I would greatly dig that, Jane!

And especially after New Year's – I could probably drive up closer to where the conference is …

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

mm it's $900, flights will be the same again (or maybe more), plus other expenses. I think its a bit ambitious for me at the moment.

UNless I start getting about $3 to the pound, I can't see it.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Liz, you might want to consider just coming for a visit, and we'll forego the conference proper, but visit with Mary, Jane, et al.. You are welcome to stay with me!

as for $3/pound, it—and all things—are possible.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I can't imagine missing an opportunity to see you, Jane, and anyone else who goes to this event. I won't be attending, unless I win the lottery before then, but definitely make sure you schedule some extra days here in Cali.

I'm off work for a month between semesters, so I'm flexible where and when I meet people.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I was considering that anyhow:-) I had hoped for Summer, but it's almost on us already. This might be more practical. I couldn't really let you all get together without me, could I?

Liz 

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I was thinking maybe I should find a beach house somewhere hot and surf-like and bring the boyz down with me for Christmas……I'd don't know if I will be totally blowing the budget but at the moment I don't care, and some good intentions can bring all these things towards us.  
Liz(Tam)–are there any scholarship things you could get, or doing what you did last time…. And do any of you california people know how to manifest beach houses for the holidays? 
Liz(Tiki) I think this will be very cool……I've always wanted to go to Monteray where the hippies all hung out in the '60s and Valdy (canadian folk singer) planted seeds in my impressionable adolescent head… 
I think I have a friend from Labrador coming with me too…..
and uh, I think I will get a lottery for this one too…. what the heck, if I win I could even get a ticket for Ramsses…..now that would be fun! Lol too come to think of it, though he wants to go hang out in Baja….hey, we could follow him around on a road trip….and what the heck, we better manifest Michael here too for a shindig of sorts….
Yes, indeedy, it is shaping up nicely in my imagination…
Jane

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

LOl if we are playing cool hippies, can we go to catalena island?

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

like totally, man. that would be groovy.

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

and I need a day in SF and a ride on the bart train.

I have no idea of distances

Liz

Should this be retitled “How to have a great time in california and save $900”

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

The Bart ride is guaranteed if you land in SF and maybe Bruce will take you around there…. 
Actually, I am thinking the ISE might be very lovely too. 

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I have put this event on my calendar. I really want to go.
But, I have shyly avoided committing for 'money fears' as well as hoping my spouse will join me.
As I have said elsewhere, I love the place. I spent a week there in the mid to late 80s for a 'Religious Science' annual conference. I remember it fondly.
This looks to be so much more 'ripe' and delicious. I'm not giving up, yet.
{;-)

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

that would be wonderful if you and you wife came.  I hope everybody makes it…. It seem like time to make the shift and all start doing what we really want to be doing, our deepest passions, our most poignant soul journey…. Besides we are all such good dancers! :)
Jane

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Amen to that Jane.
As I like to say, “I lived through the 'Sixties' & died to tell about it.”
And I'm still here, so “…time to make the shift and … start doing what [ I ] … really want to be doing, [my] deepest passions, [my] most poignant soul journey.”
And the dancing too, of course {;-).
Thanks for the boost.
Doug

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

California Dreaming. I wish I could go…I'm all tapped out. Just came back from a 5 day conference in Chicago of which I footed the bill myself (ouch). My kid needs braces, I need to see the dentist myself and must plan for summer vacation with the kids. Does that count for anything? : - ) I will be going to Las Vegas next week however on business. I'm looking for some show girls to show me around.

Hey when all else fails we've always got each other in the Integral pods to bounce off of. Last time I was in California it was near where Liz and Arthur live. I was all swamped and stressed over a new job at the time otherwise I would have been in a better frame of mind to visit. Instead it was 3 lonely nights in a Hilton with free beers in the lobby. I walked to a great local Mexican restaurant one night and ate alone, good tacos and chips. I liked the flowers they plant in Mountain View along the overpasses. Pretty.

Maybe some day ya all might come down to..Yaahooo..Tampa, Florida for some cigars and beer! And, that's still being Integral guys!

Dan

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

OK I've checked the realities
I could get a flight 27th, coming back 11th jan for £450, (about $700)which is really very good and leaves me time to visit and play and do SF………

However on top of the conference fee of 900, they want another 600 for accomodation. THis is just excessive, I've stayed in very good hotels in the US for very little money.

You know what, $1500 for a 4 day conference is racketeering, even if I could find that amount of money, I have SO MANY more things I could do with it. I'd be looking at a 3k trip.

I'm tempted just to get a flight and see whoever is around and stay with my nice friends in sacto and crash jane's Monterey beach pad. I'll have 98% of the fun at half the cost:-)

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Heheee! I don't know about racketeering, but it's out of my league for sure.

I'll be off work from December 18 - Jan 18. Any time in there is great for visiting! Prices for flights vary wildly. I think traveling on Christmas Day is actually much less than the days surrounding it.

One of the things I love to do on Christmas, if the occasion arises, is to be ultra nice to the people working on that day.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Thank you Liz, I am seriously looking at this option. If you have family coming I can always take off for a few days. My daughter has already claimed Christmas day, as she had to work last year and so they haven't had a family Chritmas in their home yet. But after that should be fine, I just had a look today and that was the best price I found, hence those dates, but something around that should work for me. I'd look forward to it all year, too

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

It is interesting about the cost.  We have been having a great conversation over at integral life about the cost of all these spiritual experiences….. and it was said that the cost for this ISE was out of the ballpark too… same as you've said Liz…. (If you want to share accomodations with me and my friend it knocks it down a couple of hundred dollars, and that would be great!)…but still I am wondering about the cost too.   How much should a conference like this cost, do you think?  Robb Smith has  been taking a bit of heat for the cost, and all the hyped marketing for so many of these 'products'…. and I am really happy to see the discussion happening.  Schalk, over on Integral Life, sent a letter to Gempo Roshi wondering about the cost of all his Big Mind workshops and received a 'loving' reply that he clearly had 'big shadow' regarding spirituality and money….. 
A lot of medical conferences that I have gone to seem to cost out at $200 dollars a day for the venue….. and the speakers and no accomodation… yet when I was at Schumacher the cost for a week, 3 weeks food(unbelievable food) accomodations(humble single rooms), field trips and the best lecturers imaginable(Don Beck was one of them) was around $3000American with around 30 people in the course, some on scholarships too… which seemed like a very reasonable rate.   It seems that some workshops can be a lot less……  and others more.  I was reading that Tony Robbins packs 'em in maybe 20,000 people for $200 a day…… that seems like a handy way to haul in the cash. 
The accomodation part of this, shared room all meals for $400 dollars for 4 nights and mostly 5 days of meals, did not seem outrageously expensive to me, for a resort place in California over the holiday season….. 
How much should all this cost?  where do you think any extra money gets shoveled away to?  Does this mean only the 'rich' get to attend? Is this an elitist event? 
Someone suggested that we should all gather and hang at his friends field in Monteray and camp on our own for a cheap version of the ISE….maybe we should….
Whaddya think?  I tell ya, I sort of feel like getting a volkswagon camper van and putting on some Jan Joplin music and clothes, (hair has been looking like that for a while anyway) and just touring around.  My boyz want to come surfing…. and I wanna be an ageing-hippy-on-tour for the season! :)
Jane

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I do understand that presenters have to make a living and doing that kind of work is not a 5 day week kind of thing. Your group of 30 sounds much more practical and I can see how that works out. This event will generate half a million dollars in 4 days, just on fees and venue. With shared rooms for up to 4, thats still over 400 bucks a room per night. I bet I could get the Sheraton cheaper. This isn't plush accomodation from what I've seen, 4 to a room is basically a bunk house. Here they sell that accomodation to walkers at £20 per night. I'm not impressed, frankly.  

With 300 people staying for a conference, it's unlikely the conference itself will be paying huge extra amounts for the meeting rooms, this is a place that is used to hosting conferences.  I bet they have a set rate for venue, meals and use of facilities.

Just say, for arguments sake, presenters took $500 per day..that would be 2k for 4 days work, not too bad. But sure, there's preparation time etc etc. In groups of 30 you'd need 10 leaders, thats 20k. 300 delegates at 900 dollars is $270,000.

Now, that leaves, from where I sit, a cool quarter million. Someobody is going to make an awful lot of money out of this. Call me old fashioned, but I think a quarter million IS an awful lot of money.

Oh and this is just year one…….they are aiming for 5. nah, it has a bad feel for me. It reminds me of the first Integral thing we all got e-mail invitations for. There it was extra for accomodation and travel too. That sparked the discussion that led to the first Boulder gathering and there have been others since. We reckoned we wanted to be together in real space more than anything else.
I got my own room, I think I cost me $25 or $30  a night. For that I got a kitchen and living room too:-)

400 for 4 days isn't outrageous, if you weren't also paying 900 for use of the  facilities and other stuff. And if you had a room each. What would I be prepared to pay? Well, if the 900 included meals and accomodation, for 4 days I'd think that would be doable.  I can't help but feel someone is being greedy in here somewhere.

Yeah maybe I have shadow issues about money too. I work for it! It doesn't come easy. I'm suggesting presenters get paid per day in dollars what i earn in a week in pounds. I'm not suggesting they should work for an hourly rate that assumes 40 hours per week. But if I could earn that in 4 days I wouldn't need to work the rest of the month.

If the unaccounted $250,000 also goes to a hypothetical 20 presenters, that would be $12,500 each. Now I'm not suggesting these figures are real, but if they are anywhere close then ………..shadow issues or not, it's not right.

Liz  

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Someone suggested that we should all gather and hang at his friends field in Monteray and camp on our own for a cheap version of the ISE….maybe we should….
 
Rofl jane, now that's just too far the other way. You've seen what happens to me with no hairdryer and straighteners:-) I'm sort of developing sympathy feelings for a dear friend who maintains if she can't do something in lipstick and high heels, she just won't do it. Now I'm not that bad, but I think my camping days are done:-)

I'll join you in the field in the daytine..I wanna bed to sleep in though:-)

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I'd be happy to go camping or whatever…but remember that California is not always sunny and warm. In the winter, or on the coast, it's foggy, rainy and cold. I despise being cold. Monterey at that time will be cold, Jane!

Liz, as for the money, remember there is always overhead, and we have no idea what that is. Schalk had a huge snit over Robert charging money for his services, and I can tell you that RAM is not terribly wealthy by any western measure. My feeling about these things is that if I feel it's worth it to me, they're charging the right amount and I'll buy it. We live in a capitalist economy, and that's how it's done. If they can't get enough people, the price will drop. If they get a full house, they're charging the right amount, regardless of the amount of profit. Why is that a bad thing?

When you talk about things in terms of a wage per hour, it's comparing apples and oranges. There is a tremendous amount of preparation for something like this.

Anyway, Liz, we can argue about it when you get here. Perhaps we can crash the gates or something. You provide the good scotch, OK?

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Oh, and Tiki-Liz, as for family coming on Christmas, no, I don't.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I get that Liz, I really do, I think its justifiable they earn in 4 days what I would in a month, for that very reason.
I'm not sure though it justifies someone esrning in 4 days what most of us would earn in 6 months though. Bob Dylan has overheads too, but even with a whole entourage tickets were still only £45. Yes I know thats apples and pears again.

I do think there is a serious issue about people who are selling spiritual goodies, for want of a better term, trying to strike a balance. Yes they need to earn a living. I know I-I can't afford to run this at a loss, I know the staff work for pittances already. I understand that. I also understand lots of people will want to go and if it really does cost that much in this format, then my view is maybe its the wrong format.

For those who have that sort of money and no bills to pay, good luck to them. To those who are thinking of going into debt over it, I'd say think twice. I'm sure some will think it important enough to sacrifice something else, and they are entitled to that choice.

Oh and you didn't think I'd arrive without Whisky, did you? I may even bring a haggis this time:-)

Liz 

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Oh I never suggested any of these people shouldn;'t charge. As you said, it is a capitalist society- what comes free tends not to be valued very highly. So even if they could afford to, it might well be counter productive

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Really, Liz, you can leave the haggis at home. I have no need to prove my allegiance to my ethnic heritage…in fact, it's probably why my ancestors left: couldn't stomach the food any more!

(pun  intended)

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I was going to have one freshly shot too..and bring you the pelt to make a rug

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I am really intrigued about the cost of things….I don't think the capitalist argument really cuts it at this point, Liz(Tam).  Just because something sells out does not mean that it has been priced appropriately.  Making huge profits and not providing a product that fills the bill is not appropriate to me.  I keep wondering what Integral Money looks like….. and how these sorts of spiritual experiences should be valued.  Liz(Tiki) I love your practical approach…..how much should people make?  I would love to see the books on this…. I have been paid for giving talks before, and I have done many for free too…. especially when my travel is being taken care of and and conference fees and so on….. I wonder what would happen if  the 'teachers'/presenters are actually sponsored to come but not 'paid' per se….. would they still see this as a premier integral spiritual event.  
I hear you about Monterey being cold… maybe we should go skiing…
and I hear you about the bed.  I like beds too, most of the time. 
Jane 

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

So, let's just say that they priced it appropriately. and then went out of business. Who is to say what is appropriate? Especially without any of the information we would need to make such a determination?

I'm not saying some asshole isn't making off with a bunch of ill-gotten gains. I just don't know. There's at least one person on the roster you couldn't pay me to be in the same room with. I'm just saying there isn't anything inherently ethically wrong with charging a lot of money.

It seems like all the open-minded integral stuff goes out the window as soon as money gets involved. I've got PLENTY of money shadow…I can't put my finger on the point, so I do apologize. (Might have something to do with the heat and my AC being on the fritz) It seems like there's something underneath this…

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I'm guessing that the fees paid to the speakers aren't their primary incentive for giving the talks.  It's a fabulous marketing opportunity to make them that much more of a “big name” for future events.  Also, a lot of them have things to sell – books, coaching or consulting services, etc.

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

In relation to money many spiritual movements and organizations tend to show their uglier face. This face is regularly veiled  by leaders making statements to those expected to spend their money on the movement having big shadows regarding money and spirituality, or how money given to spiritual purposes comes multiplied back in some form to you. The end result of this however being that spiritually oriented people, who often have no in interest in pursuing big careers and making a lot of money, put all their savings on these outrageous course fees, and get even more impoverished. Simultaneously an inner circle inside the movement lives luxurious lives. This goes on as long as people will  believe on those manipulations considering their issues with money.
I have some close own experience on this from my long history in TM-movement.
And when looking around me at other guru centered movements it all looks very similar.
I also know that high quality spiritual conferences and seminars can be organized at  very low cost. I'm a Freemason and in our co-freemasonry organization we arrange a national level weekend seminar every year in June. Every fourth year there is a truly big international conference in Paris or some other big city.
The seminars and conferences itself cost nothing. The only costs come from accommodation and traveling.
In co-Freemasonry no one makes a living by teaching it. The teaching is inbuilt in the hierarchical structure of the organization.
In the national level seminars we each year have one lodge responsible of organizing the ceremonial part of the meeting, and another lodge the seminar program. This year the lodge I belong to will be arranging the seminar. We have three different themes we give introduction on. This year I will be one of the speakers.After the introduction we gather in small groups to discuss the theme. This year also the musicians among us will improvise a “Freemason Opera”. One of us has also written a small play with a masonic theme, that will be presented there.
The place is an old beautiful manor house from the eighteenth century surrounded by several smaller buildings.It is a panoramic place in the countryside. The manor owns big areas of land in the surroundings. It has also two sauna buildings at the lakeside. In the other building there is also a big gathering room with a fireplace, where we gather together  informally in the evenings to bath in sauna, to swim in the lake, and to just talk and enjoy the nature and  the beautiful scenery.
All this costs with full board, that includes excellent vegetarian cuisine, 57 € per day per person, when sharing a room with another person. The cost of the whole weekend will  be from Friday evening to Sunday afternoon 114 €!
And our presentations and discussions regularly reach to integral or second tier altitudes.

Another once a year held weekend seminar I regularly participate in is in the same place. It is organized together by several spiritual organizations: the theosophic society,   anthroposophs, rosencreutzians and us co-Freemasons. The seminar has an overall theme, that is divided in 3 sub themes. Introductions are given on these themes. After each introduction we get divided in small groups to discuss the theme. No one is allowed to lean on the dogmas and leading figures of their own movement as authorities. I like these discussions very much. They are generally of  very high quality. Most actively and regularly in these seminars participate the experienced leading figures of the movements that organize this seminar. Hence it also forms a powerful connecting link between these organizations. I think this is very integral. This seminar weekend also costs with full board 114 €, and it is  free for anyone who has interest in the themes of the seminar to participate in.

Btw. in March this year, while I was with my husband visiting my son's family in Palo Alto in California, we spent one night in a neat and nice hotel in Monterey. I don't anymore remember the exact cost, but I felt it was truly inexpensive. I have in my photoalbum even a pic from that hotel.

Irmeli

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I suspect that the difference between speakers' costs and the projected fee income will be susidising Integral Institute/Life. The dealings that I had with some of the integral speakers when we were trying to organise an event in the UK (some of which I'm sure are involved here - haven't looked 'cos I know I can't attend) were that all they wanted was their accomodation and flight costs! I was gob-smacked.

Julie

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Exactly, Irmeli. Hotel accomodation in the US is, by European standards, spacious and cheap. NOt only is this expensive, but the “bunk house” feeling I got from their own puvblicity seems to fit with the experience of people who stayed there.

Anyone who is thinking of paying 150 a night to stay here should read tripadvisor reviews
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g32840-d115057-Reviews-Asilomar_Conference_Grounds-Pacific_Grove_Monterey_Peninsula_California.html

I wouldn't stay here at $50 a night, really.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Psychology Conference at Asilomar in June.
3 days-cost approx $200

http://www.ncgps.org/downloads/Asilomar2009Flyer.pdf

Of course it might be subsidised, it may be comparing apples and pears. It's unlikely to be susbidised to $700 per person though.

That's it for me, I think. Other orgs do things at the same venue much cheaper, the accomodation is awful and I don't have the money anyhow!

The information is there so others can make up their own minds, I'm not inclined to spend any more energy on this.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Of course, the more expensive events subsidize the company. I-I is not freemasonry, which is well-established and can expect to last through the next few years without worry. I-I can't.

I still can't see what is ethically wrong with this. If I had that kind of disposable income, and I wanted to meet all those people (I'd like to meet a LOT of them) then I'd go for it!

I'm not inclined to argue, either, Liz, I just don't think that all the energy around this is accounted-for. Still, it's not a big deal. I think it's delicious that we've organized ourselves multiple times now to have get-togethers, in part prompted by such high-falutin' events!

If anyone else is interested, please feel free to dive in. Accommodations in January are likely to be really cheap. When Arthur had the event in Vancouver, we almost got Helen to come, but she backed out, sadly. Can you imagine what that would have been like?

We've found that there's really nothing to compare to meeting in person. Friendships can start, deepen—or even mend—when you can look each other in the eye. It's a beautiful thing to feel the other person you've been talking to from afar. Differences seem to shrink before your eyes, and it's impossible ever to pretend that the other person is only the sum of their all-too-imperfect parts ever again.

I'm getting all misty-eyed thinking about it! This's not what I expected to write…it's not a cure-all for everything, meeting in person, but it is something I feel strongly about.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Well, as one who recently began collecting Social Security as sole income, I can say that if there is any way I could come up with the money for this conference I would sign up immediately. I feel the pinch also, Tiki Liz and hear your regret that it exceeds your current sense of the possible. On the other hand, I really wish IL great success with this event.
I have read some of the discussions over on Integral Life and understand that some folks believe 'Spirituality' should be free and easy. This begins to sound a lot like the old debates between 'Faith' and 'good works' or perhaps 'grace' and 'merit'. One could argue all day long in this dualistic way.
I don't believe these two are mutually exclusive. I need to lift my fork to my mouth to feed myself and yet it truly is a miracle what this amazing body/mind does with the food I 'work' to put into it. And besides, as you say Liz (Trans/Include) Integral Life is one of the main monetary support bases for Integral Institute which according to this observer is doing some of the most important work to heal our world family and planetary environment.
The other side of this coin is sheer joy of learning and playing together in a face to face venue which is quite beautiful.
If I fail to have a miracle that allows me to attend the conference, I'd love to consider visiting with ya'all in Sacramento… Rah Rah! {;-)
Doug

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Do you really think II is at risk of collapse now? and if so, Why?
I am not disagreeing, mind.  I wrote this over on the IL board a while ago…and I suppose there are other aspects to the shaky ground, and I am curious too what they might be.:
Now this may be bit of a leap, but Helen(e) IMO is the real catalyst that brought about the demise of the integral institute.   I am being totally serious here even though this may seem outrageous/ and even though it might not really be clearly 'in demise'….In early days we had a wonderful forum on the Integral Naked.  Anyone could read the statistics of new people joining up every day to II…usually about 40 people @$10/person/month.   The math is such that every day another $400 dollars more / per month than the previous month… Which to me looked like it was good.  we went from 3000 members to maybe 10,000 members in the time I watched…. and the the dreams of the integral university looked like they might be well in hand, and financed, by this flood of members.  that was $1.2 million to run the organization/year…. and that was only part of it.Helen(e) came along, queen of all spammers extraordinaire, and in some ways very loveable, though also irritating for most of us. So, first of all, armed with all our green meme outlooks, everything is beautiful and must be included, and in total denial of our blue meme “hey ya gotta have some order around here” and even in worse denial of our red meme “hey we are under threat and need to get together”, Helen(e) began spamming every topic.  Many of us would rush to the boards topics in the morning to get to see what had been posted before Helen(e) spammed everything.  ”It's already been Helen(e)d” became a common euphemism. And her spam was really tricky.  She actually has done a lot of reading, and sometimes was very kind, and sometimes was very wise.  I suspect as she references herself above, she is schizophrenic, and maybe schizoaffective.  Anyway, all those are just 'psychiatric labels'.  My sense of Helen(e) is that she is mostly in 1P spirit world where none of the ususal progress and discipline of trundling up the memes developments have occurred, or at least they have only partially occurred. She is kind of like an autistic savant…or something….. and maybe she is just a bad speller with bad grammar who has a personality disorder and spams as a lark.  I don't know.Anyway, whatever Helen(e) is, the great mighty Integral Map was no match for her. The forum was not moderated with any effect and it became really challenging to have an intelligent discussion about anything integral without Helen(e) acting as a grand messer-upper.  It was like a dinner party with some really 'huge guest' that took up all the air time and the coherence of the conversation was reduced to, at first, hushed whispers of how to get the guy to shut up, then loud raucous rallies to get rid of him…. and the host of the party, (IN in this case, and II by default) was unwilling to escort him to the door, bless him, call a taxi if necessary and send them along. As a result, all of us left the forum, some splintered into the Heartmind forum, a beautiful little forum, that you can google, and some of us left completely, and others ended up on Gaia (what was then Zaadz).  The IN forum went dead, and with it (in my guess anyway that these are directly related) went the 40 new members joining II every day….and actually what looked like the financing for the dreams of II too. This IL forum here, is the new attempt to revive the IN forum.  The solution to Helen(e) in this forum comes from the Orange meme.  Technically, we can block all of Autonomy's posts, and thus avoid the huge mess that can be created by one person.  And of course, this is very clever and a relief, but it is not an integral solution.  And you know, from what I can tell, all of this really reflects deeper shadows in II.  From what I understand about the rift of II from Don Beck and spiral dynamics, there is a philosophical difference in the two which is really important.  II and Ken are trying to move people up spiral, to 'save the world', and Don Beck and Clare Graves before him recognized that we MUST HAVE HEALTHY FUNCTIONING CORE VALUE MEMES before and in order to evolve, and that these had to remain healthy and functions with every new evolutionary emergence.  In my opinion, the reason that you can have these money mongers on the so-called 'integral' level is because they have not developed and maintained healthy green values, where everything is beautiful in its own way, and we are equal, and we all deserve to be treated with love and respect—and that includes the Helen(e)'s of the world and the people in red and blue.  In effect, the shadows of Integral have created Integral Snobs, IME.  and as a snob, of course, you can make a gazzillion dollars an hours of the stupid schlepps that work for $10 an hour at the local dry-cleaner, and you can justify this by thinking that really those people at the dry-cleaner are somehow equal-but-not-really, and their money can get melded in with everyone else who “brings in the power flow from Wealth Mastery as Tony Robbin's would teach us”.    The thing is, until we all develop the kind of compassion that seeks to truly love our neighbours as ourselves, and somehow paradoxically know also how to have conversations in safe places without harming the spammers(bless them) terrorists etc, until we learn truly what social aikido really is….we are going to have these same shadowy issues lurking in the corners. I think Don Beck is great, and I also think most of II is riddled with shadow.  

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Another comparison –

I've been to several 10-day silent centering prayer retreats. These are generally very deep-level experiences for all involved, and the cost (which includes good food and  VERY comfy accommodations – your own room all to yourself if you'd like) is $500 - $750 dollars, depending on the venue. Thus: no more than $75.00 a day. Scholarships are offered for those who need them. (And people will still claim that even this is too expensive …)

Right now the ISE seems “busy” – more like a conference than a time of inquiry and spiritual practice – i.e., there are a lot of teachers involved, lots of events planned … I can't help but wonder if there will be enough space and quiet for a gathering that is intended to be spiritually transformative. Initially I was wanting to go because it looked like a way to have a retreat-like experience with other integralites, and it was mainly the time of year that was a problem for me. If it were at a different time of year (like, right after the beginning of the new year) and if the tuition were not so high, I would probably try to make it.

I'm glad for those of you who will be going, though – and look forward to hearing about your experiences.

Doubly glad that it looks like we will get to have a more affordable integral hang-out!! And seeing Tiki-Liz (and Jane, and any of you other far-flung folk who would be traveling great distances) again!!

Mary

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I'm filling up just reading that, Mary. It's been too long and there has been a lot of water under the bridge. Whee, looks like there's 2 Liz's, mary, jane, Doug, Mrs Doug…………..I have a former colleague 100 miles from Liz that I need to see too. I'm going to sort things with work and get a ticket while they are still cheap. THis is much more exciting than the conference:-)

Liz 

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I'm willing to acknowledge there is energy in this for me. Until recently I couldn't have considered going to this, or doing anything that was “just for me” without major domestic upset. So maybe some of what I'm dealing with here is simply “my stuff”.

So now I have a world of choices and I need to learn how to use that wisely. I have to ask myself hard questions all the time. I don't want to go running off like a kid in a sweet shop, signing up for stuff just because I can, that just doesn't feel like it would be right for me. However sometimes opportunities present themselves, like Jane's visit to Devon or the Allan Combes event at Findhorn and I've decided they were too good to miss and unlikely to come around again, so I did them.

Then I look at the ISE……now, maybe, I could just about find it. It wouldn't be without financial hardship but it's not completely impossible. So then I have to ask myself is this the best way to spend that amount of money? I guess that depends what I'd take from it and there is only one way to find that out. Then I have the shadow of “What, spend all that on just me?”………I know loads of people who could use that money, if I had it, from the big issue seller in my town, to the local hospice, it would educate several African kids, I have a couple of kids of my own who would be pretty pleased to see it come their way, the list is endless.

And then the sincerity question. Why would I be going? Am I really on some quest? Not really. Would it be fun? Sure, but I can find lots of ways to have fun. Do i get to spend time with my friends? WEll, those who can afford it, yes, but I can see my friends without this. Liz was right in her post about the value of that shared time, I'm not actually sure I WANT it cluttered by someone else's programme. Oh God, is that heresy? Am I a fraud? Am I playing a game with myself where I'm making some of the right noises but not really willing to make the big effort where it counts? I honestly don't know.

I don't feel a strong pull for this, I have so many mixed feelings about it. I know lots of the folk who are keen on Integral are in a worse financial position than I am. It just seems to me if the organisation really wanted participation it would be more accessible. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you can't contribute to changing the world if you can't get your own financial house in order enough to come up with 3k.

 Jane
 In effect, the shadows of Integral have created Integral Snobs, IME.  and as a snob, of course, you can make a gazzillion dollars an hours of the stupid schlepps that work for $10 an hour at the local dry-cleaner, and you can justify this by thinking that really those people at the dry-cleaner are somehow equal-but-not-really, and their money can get melded in with everyone else who “brings in the power flow from Wealth Mastery as Tony Robbin's would teach us”.    

Wow jane, that resonates so strongly. It feels like Guru following in all its worst manifestations. People donating large chunks of their meagre income so those at the top can have mansions in malibu. I had the same feeling in the Vatican museum. Awesome as it is, I just couldn't help wondering how many catholics (and others) that wealth would house and feed. What does a church need all this “stuff ” for? Doesn't it trust its God to provide?

It just feels..not right……..and sure, it may be me that has the problem

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Wow, you guys are blowing me away! Jane, boatloads of great ideas, as usual. Yeah, there is that Helen shadow thing. You could be right. I know they missed a sort of wave when that happened, and the wave broke elsewhere. But maybe that was a good thing? Creating more diversity where there was a more cultish (yeah, sure, count me in on that) following before? Money had been pouring in, but they were also hemorraging it out. They had to get smart about it, and stop letting Ken run things. The guy has no sense of how to run an organization at all! I'm still very dubious, to be honest, but I think it has a fighting chance.

Even here on Gaia, we diverged, and there are other pods that are thriving in their own ways. I think of this as a good thing.

Thanks, Liz, for your candor. Perhaps there is an enormous shadow there, as you and Jane have alluded to. I don't think of this as a problem of yours or anyone else's, just a line of inquiry. It doesn't happen to trigger me. It's OK, don't worry: I have plenty of other things that do…

I feel like I have all the integral information I could possibly ever use, without the seminar thingy. I think a weekend with all those poeple would be kinda wasted on me. I'm not being falsely modest; I'm very bright. I just pick what interests me, and getting into the minutiae of integral theory does not, usually. I'd rather hang out with Bruce Alderman, anyway, if I'm looking to get a shot of theory! …and save my money for the next ITC. The talks are great, but the times between, meeting and greeting, are the glue that holds us together.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

I don't mind the price of the seminar; if people want to pay that amount then they've set a good price. I also don't mind the multitude of teachers, since it's not a retreat but a “spiritual experience”. In my experience there are two kinds of seminars: one where you go deep with 1-2 teachers, and one where you get an overview of the work of several teachers. Both models are useful depending on what you're after.

The only issue I have with the event is the five year plan. What's up with that? The only other five year plans I've heard of were devised in Moscow. For me the core of having an evolutionary outlook on life is that you have to be prepared to flex/flow at all times, meaning that you plan what has to be planned but nothing more.

A good example of evolutionary thinking is agile development - but I see nothing agile about having a five year plan.

I have a similar issue with the IL web platform: it's too heavy and complex, instead of being light and easily accessible. I'm not interested in handling complexity on a website; it should have been done for me.

Sometimes I get the feeling that IN/II/IL place to big a burden on their shoulders. Everything has to be perfectly 'integral' and groundbreaking. Why not let go of all that and simply do something that is good enough, and then build on that. Now that would be agile…

Pelle

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Pelle: Sometimes I get the feeling that IN/II/IL place to big a burden ontheir shoulders. Everything has to be perfectly 'integral' andgroundbreaking. Why not let go of all that and simply do something thatis good enough, and then build on that.

Yeah, interesting point. I've been trying to get back into IL, but it's just not attracting me much these days. That's partly because I don't… resonate (??? not the right word, but we'll go with it for now) with several of the more active members of the community, but it's also because the site itself is just not inviting enough.

And it's precisely the sort of agility Pelle talks about that attracts me to the “real-time feed” (or “statusphere”, “statstream”, microblogging, or whatever you want to call it – Twitter, Facebook, FriendFeed, etc.). You stay in touch with your community and broader network of contacts (friends of friends, etc.) and then engage more deeply with people wherever something happens to be going on. No need to rely too heavily on any one organization or web site.

Anyway, I haven't been following this thread too closely. The Don Beck/Spiral Dynamics thing just caught my attention, and then I saw this from Pelle. So apologies if this isn't terribly relevant to the general discussion.

Cheers,

Grey

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Actually, it is really relevant, what engages and what deadens…..It is true about IL….I have just attached onto a couple of people's blogs and look at what they have to say, but I have next to no interest in wading through the other stuff….there are not enough filters on it to make it light and focussed….And in a way, this is also about conferences too, what makes it worth the time, money and effort to attend, and what makes it feel like a heavy drag, or a burden, or a rip-off….. 
I love the notion of 'integral accountability' in all of this…and this is far more than a monetary accounting, it is an aesthetic accounting too, and energy accounting, if you will. 
Jane

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Liz: I-I is not freemasonry, which is well-established and can expect to last through the next few years without worry. I-I can't.

The co-freemasonry organization Le Droit Humain, I belong to is not that well established and rich as the old male only organizations are.
I appreciate this organization very much because it does not depend on money. Everything inside the movement is done without payment. When the leaders travel to some country to pay a visit to a seminar there, they pay themselves for their own travel costs as everyone else does. We do not have gurus and stars that are followed and idealized. Rather we are encouraged to find our own path to inner  growth inside the context that our growth support also the well being and evolving of others. There is something similar to Integral Life Practice, where you are encouraged to pick up practices from different domains of life according to your own tastes.
Freemasonry traditionally is most importantly a hierarchical organization. It is symbolic and we practice the art, and freedom of interpretation. This together is ingenious. This structure itself seems mostly capable of letting only people, who have developed morally through certain stages, to high positions in the hierarchy.
Also freemasonry is more about helping people slowly evolve through the stages than about enhancing advanced states. It has been this way long before the appearance of evolutionary psychology and the concept of developmental stages.

Irmeli

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Jane:From what I understand about the rift of II from Don Beck and spiraldynamics, there is a philosophical difference in the two which isreally important.  II and Ken are trying to move people up spiral, to'save the world', and Don Beck and Clare Graves before him recognizedthat we MUST HAVE HEALTHY FUNCTIONING CORE VALUE MEMES before and inorder to evolve, and that these had to remain healthy and functionswith every new evolutionary emergence.
- - -
In effect, the shadows of Integral have created Integral Snobs, IME. and as a snob, of course, you can make a gazzillion dollars an hoursof the stupid schlepps that work for $10 an hour at the localdry-cleaner,

I tend to think in similar lines. I'm a little bit uncomfortable of the focus at I-I on the advanced second tier or third tier structures. All this bubble on if someone is at turquoise or indigo altitude or whatever.  Some people may actually cognitively at their best reach there. Then there are however plenty of signs that these people are emotionally, interpersonally and morally actually much lower. This combination creates the snobs. And it is also the kind of stuff many gurus and spiritual teachers are made of. To all these people some humbling down would be truly healthy. And is actually necessary for their healthy development.

I myself am very cautious in not supporting economically these snobs.Good quality spiritual teaching is available at little cost. It becomes visible only, when you stop idealizing the snobs and gurus.

Irmeli

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

All true…for me, I like the idea of all those people striving for the Next Great Thing, whatever the egoic reason. Maybe they're snobs and gurus, etc. But every integral person I've met has turned out to be just another human, struggling much like I am.

Liz

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Reading these posts, especially by Jane and Irmeli, I'm reminded once again that I should be so grateful all the time, I should be out of my mind!

My guru refused to take money from the beginning; in fact, he offered me a large sum of money when he thought I needed it - and that was after seeing me in person maybe three or four times. I was shocked. He was completely sincere. There are some people in the lineage of Ramana/ Poonjaji who take you on in ways that go beyond anything I had ever seen elsewhere in this lifetime. 'Taking you on' means a relationship that encompasses every dimension, a kind of parenting on levels normal parents don't have access to because these layers of existence are too deep, too subtle and too high.

My benefactor adamantly insisted that you don't pay for someone to tell you the truth. For everything else, including therapy and workshops, you may charge a fee if you must and can't help to defray the costs otherwise - but the truth  is free.

Of course, since he wanted absolutely nothing, only to GIVE whatever he has achieved, I couldn't resist the surrender that was inevitable in the face of such a man. It's also telling that both, he and Poonjaji, ran away from teaching formally for the longest time. People had to hunt them down and compel them to work on them by just burning with the sincere desire to be free… including free of all teachers, ultimately.

I still can't believe my luck… still floored by the humility of these guys and how they blend into the background, so that very few people even notice them at all.

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Who is your guru, Mascha?

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

He's not hiding but he's also not advertising himself. I really just wanted to chime in here saying that there are true Satgurus out there, still, even today, there are great adepts who are not on the take. Sometimes I get so despondent when I hear the stories of corruption in the spiritual marketplace, I have to remind myself that the heart of devotion itself has not been broken. Even in America… You know?

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Yep! {;-)

Re: Intergral Spiritual Experience new year's 09-10 in California

Here's the news you've been waiting for!

There is a scholarship! Apply fast: the deadline is this Sunday.

Liz