An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

I was walking back from class today at my local Junior College, and thought, why do I think so much about my problems?

It's not like I really am that important, so why do I consider my problems, or my pleasures, so precious, that is so much more precious than anyone else's?

Any thoughts?

Edward

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Wow, Edward, cool !!! And thank you for sharing this realization !!

This seems to be an example of what Ken Wilber calls moving from subject to object, which is always a step of expanding consciousness and (therefore) of maturation. Your problems/pleasures were “subject,” were part of your identity, sort of invisible to you in a way, and now they are visible objects you can contemplate, think about, work with, “out there” from your “self-identity.” They are your problems/pleasures, not you. Does that seem to fit as a description?

This is what he might call a step out of narcissism. Or one of the possible steps of expanding narcissism so eventually it dissolves as the “self” becomes the One Self which is All Selves.

Anyway, IMO you as an individual ARE precious and important; you are unique, and it's appropriate for your life and experience to be treasured by everyone, including you. But in a more mature kind of way, which it seems you are stepping into. 

And, so, what are you going to do with this insight? How has it changed you? How will your life or experience be different now? I'd love to hear.

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

1Vector3,

Yes, the sense is that I can view myself and my problems/pleasures for all their grandeur, but at least for the moment I am seeing them as not as universally huge as they once seemed. I just know they can't possibly be THAT big. A step out of narcissism is a good way of putting it. Feeling one step removed from them is also a good way of putting it.

I am sure it will continue to play a roll in the way I make up my worldview, the way I view and interact with others, and the way in which I interpret my actions and spirituality.

Another take on that realization is: you know I REALLY AM every bit as fallible as anybody else.

Like taking the mirror and turning it on myself: do I really sound like THAT?

Thanks for your sharing as well.

Edward

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

You kin call me “OM.” It occurred to me that this shift in your awareness might ALSO have something to do with the difference between being in one's twenties vs. being in one's teens. At least, some people make the leap, haha.

Keep on keeping on !
Blessings, OM

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

OM,

Sounds like a case of human development meeting genuine soulful spiritual experience. The problem being around where a limited concept of self meets the infinitude of its potential.

So I could look at the sun and say clearly that it is a greater entity than I am. But I can also conceive of the possibility of designing some piece of equipment which could harness the sun; then the sun would be lesser than I. I could see the whole universe and say I could never compare to that, and yet I can conceive of building a device which could skip across it, or leave it altogether; then which is greater? It is even possible to conceive of technologies which can overcome the obstacle of death. So surely if I can do that, I am (or at least potentially could be) greater than even death.

In this contest it seems my potential is at least comparable to all the beauty and greatness of the universe, technically…

However this doesn't mean that I actually am greater than the universe. It only means that there really is something to this whole “self” business, isn't there? As I perceive the boundless glory of the universe, and can put myself even in those terms, then I run into some problems.

I am becoming increasingly aware of my “self,” and don't know how to interpret what “I” am. I just don't know what to make of “that.” I go through all the classic stages of delusion with it, being embedded within it, considering it some sort of mother/father figure, comparing myself to “it”, and now trying to put it in more objective terms, as I become more aware that that my misinterpretation of it is affecting my behavior! No, I am not the greatest thing in the universe. Yes I really do sound like THAT. There ARE surely more important things in life than ME. I become more aware of myself as a social being in the context of others, and redefine myself as a member of humanity, however the sense of infinite potential still remains.

Now what?

Edward

Re: An Exaggerated Sense of Self Importance

Oh boy, this is getting juicy. Big thoughts, big questions. 

Being an elder and a spiritual counselor, I do have a few possibilities to suggest for your ponderings, with great respect for the scope on which you are pondering!!

Two writers/teachers/speakers I respect very very very highly on matters of “who am I” are Adyashanti (www.adyashanti.org) and Ken Wilber (numerous websites, books, and Gaia Groups.) You might look over their stuff and see what attracts you.

What I've learned from them and from my own experience is that “I” is an extremely complex thing !  It's not as simple as the world leads us to believe: I am my body, my feelings, my thoughts. We are, as you said, social beings in the context of others. We wouldn't exist as who we are, without other humans' influence every day of our lives.

And it's even more complex than that. 

At some point, if we are willing to grow and mature, our “identity” expands through family, through various ever-larger groups defined in various ways, to, if we keep going, “redefining myself as a member of humanity.” You said it very well.

And some people keep expanding their identity even beyond that to “I am a member of all sentient beings”. Maybe even a part of the Universe. Maybe even a portion of the Infinite All That Is, or even beyond that, to the Field of Infinite Possibilities and Potentials (Deepak Chopra's term.)

So we end up like a nested set of smaller and larger identities, all co-existing, we hope peacefully co-existing, haha. We are all those selves, and at any given moment we can be in any of those identities, and can have experiences from standing in that Self looking out at the rest of What Is. (Except at the highest levels, the Infinite Self. Then there's nothing else to look out on.)

So I don't accuse you of being silly or a dreamer or prideful or of thinking you're the greatest thing in the universe. I applaud you for moving toward owning all of your Selves (who already exist, just awaiting your acknowledgment of them) and for being willing to real-ize your potentials. These potentials really are pretty awesome, in the Larger Identities.

Eventually, of course, if you are standing in a very large identity, the “who's even with whom” concern seems to fade to no importance, and in fact who is self and who is “other” gets kinda blurry, at the more expanded levels/scopes of identity, I'm sure you can see that.

So you are indeed “even with” the boundless glory of the universe, but only when you are standing in a much larger Self than the one inside your skin. Only when you recognize you are a portion of the Whole, the universe. No more than that, and no less than that, a portion. With all the characteristics of the Whole. That's pretty boundlessly glorious!!!!! It's a whole lot more empowerment and glory than most people will allow for themselves and for others. But, the world is changing. People are waking up and expanding. You are, IMO, part of that happening. 

So how does that grab ya??

Blessings, 
OM

Re: An Exaggerated Sense of Self Importance

OM, this …

So we end up like a nested set of smaller and larger identities, all co-existing, we hope peacefully co-existing, haha. We are all those selves, and at any given moment we can be in any of those identities, and can have experiences from standing in that Self looking out at the rest of What Is. (Except at the highest levels, the Infinite Self. Then there's nothing else to look out on.)

… is brilliant!  I know it's just Integral 101, but somehow, the way you put it, it really hits the spot.  Thank you!

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Well put, but I have to say: “Whoa!”

Edward, as we enter into the various realms of experience, we need to guard our personalities. A requirement in that effort is that WE KNOW OURSELVES. Investing energy in thinking about ourselves is a preparation for those opportunities.

A second aspect of the effort is choosing the ideas we associate with. 1Vector3 reflects on expansion, but expansion involves work. That work manifests itself as change in the space of ideas. When you introduce yourself into that space, you will find ideas (personality-free structures of pure spirit) expanding into the space of your mind. You need to sort through them. As they are attempting to relate to you, you will consider them in the context of your life.

Your recognize that ideas are not terribly interesting unless they relate to a large context. That is a positive and hopeful sign. But don't run away into the all until you have the weight to navigate it successfully!

That involves choosing a purpose - a goal that helps you to focus your experiences. If you have one already, that's great! If you don't, you risk becoming simply another particle bouncing in the chaos.

Blessings!

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Hi Edward!

Trichonos: Edward, as we enter into the various realms of experience, we need to guard our personalities. A requirement in that effort is that WE KNOW OURSELVES.

I like a lot of the whole post of Trichonos. It makes so much sense to me, and to my way of relating to spiritual experiences in general. I continuously ground those experiences to my body, to the reality around me I live in in the gross realm. Instead of giving grandious interpretations to my experiences of infinity, intense bliss etc, I perceive these as useful forms of subtle energy. I channel this energy towards my heavier energies, to the work with my shadow issues. It is truly useful there. It makes the shadow work lighter to do.
I do not identify myself with the ideas and images those subtle perceptions and energies may bring with themselves. That kind of identification tends to in hidden ways powerfully flame grandiosity. As warning examples are to me the many grandiose, 'enlightened' spiritual teachers, who often get revealed having been sweeping under the carpet their darker side not fitting into their image of their enlightened selves.
In The Evolving Self Robert Kegan describes the function and role of “I” as an evolving meaning maker. This approach I find to be in a healthy way grounded, and that I deeply resonate with. Permanent fixation with having 'no I' if find to be a pathology.
I am in no way trying to deny the importance of the experience of expanded states. These are hugely important to me too. The difference is in the meaning making, in my interpretation of them, and what I do with those states. No amount of experiencing infinity, light, bliss I allow to create grandiose interpretations of myself.

Irmeli

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Cool, other input!!!

Thanks Tely. That metaphor of standing in any of various selves at various times came to me during a workshop recently. I am glad you too find it useful. The rest of the story is that of course, each self has its own perspective. So one gets to experience many perspectives by standing in various places within one's self.

Trichronos, I agree with two themes you brought up: the importance of really knowing oneself, all the selves, which involves a lot of psychological healing and “shadow-work.” And the importance of having a purpose, a central organizing principle around which all the selves coalesce or align. Never thought of the latter point that way, but it's an excellent point. The alternative is a sense of being scattered, chaotic, and probably, I'm guessing, depressed and feeling meaningless.

See how useful your musings and questions are to others, as well, Edward!!

Blessings, OM

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Is there really one central organizing principle around which all the selves coalesce?  I think of it as different selves (developmentally speaking) having different purposes.  And, OM, maybe your metaphor of nested selves can also be applied to purposes – nested purposes.  One would hope that the purpose of the highest self would in some way have primacy, though, or at least help to somehow organize the other purposes so that one's experience of living isn't so scattered or chaotic.

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Hmmmm. Interesting thoughts, Tely. I think both, one and differing, haha, how's that for “Integral?”

The purpose of the highest self naturally and inevitably does have primacy, isn't that true just logically? Because it is the vastest self, and in my perspective, is a basic “cause” of all the other selves. Creates them.

That would be, IMO, the one central organizing principle around which all the selves coalesce, but of course inevitably each self has its own purpose appropriate to its nature and scope, who the “I” is. A single central organizing principle is not the same as not having different purposes. The purposes would just themselves be expressions of and thus aligned/coalesced with, the one principle. Does that make sense?

And it might be that there is one over-arching purpose that is the same for every highest or largest Self which exists, namely Self-realization, or perhaps Self-appreciation. But then, something more unique or specialized, too, probably.

Well, that all quickly gets complex and kinda woo-woo, so I'll just say that much.

Does that mesh with your viewpoint, Tely?

And Edward, this is still your thread, say whatever you want to !!! 

Blessings, OM

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Yes, OM, it's a perfect mesh.  :-)

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

perhaps a little creative visualization is in order. How do I visualize myself? Beyond the body, what am I? Am I the axis mundi? The central turning point? Or am I the great nest of being, the I which connects all things, the great mesh work.

Edward

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

I'm still working on it, but one of the best images I have come up with so far is simply a set of concentric circles, all of which are “you.” The human self is the smallest inner one. The universe or the Kosmos or “all that is” might be the largest one, or might be the paper on which all the circles are drawn.

Does that do anything fer ya?

If not, try the image of a nested set of dolls like the Russian dolls. Or nested set of boxes. That's my second-best image.

Or another image I find even more helpful is the physical universe, the distribution of star-stuff, of atoms. There are small clumps, like planets/bodies, medium-sized clumps that contain the smaller ones, like solar systems/group souls, and even larger more inclusive ones like galaxies/even vaster collections of souls who are one Being. And I understand there are even clusters of galaxies!!! Note that the boundaries are all quite fuzzy, so it's easy to see that it's all One Stuff but some places it's denser and some places it's less dense. “Things” are the more dense places. This metaphor is pretty exact, by shifting “atoms” to “energy.” Conscious energy. Awareness which = Beingness. We're small clumps of that.

Good question!!!

Blessings, OM

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

OM: Or another image I find even more helpful is the physical universe, the distribution of star-stuff, of atoms.

I have recently been reading the book The View from the Center of the Universe by Primack and Abrams. It is about discovering our extraordinary place in the cosmos.  Primack has done foundational research in modern cosmology.
He says that it is correct and appropriate to see ourselves situated in the center of the universe.

The book is written with the purpose that we can better visualize ourselves  in the All, and to be able to more adequately to understand our role in the cosmos.

 The authors of the book consider it to be hugely important to us to update our understanding of our role in the universe to be in line with what the new, but already well established modern astrophysics has to say about this issue. The image that Newtonian physics created of our role is deeply alienating to us, and has had a catastrophical effect on us in this regard.

The book is easy to read and understand. I highly recommend it.

Irmeli

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Like this.

Left-click on image to enlarge

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Om,

That's interesting, I'm feeling out the concentric circle image right now.

I like the nested chains, in that I am that which connects all these random events and makes sense out of them. I am the chain between many things, many perspectives.

I bring things together, to “make sense” out of them.

Sort of like gravity, in our model.

Edward

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

OOOH, Irmeli, it sounds fabulous. Thank you a zillion for the recommendation. I especially resonate with
The image that Newtonian physics created of our role is deeply alienating to us, and has had a catastrophical effect on us in this regard.
That makes me REALLY want to read the book!!

Edward, in my perspective you are the things as well as the sense-maker and the gravity, you are the events and their connections. Some “you” or other is that, and others “you's” are smaller and larger than that.

However, the way you are talking now points to your sense of yourself which I call your Cosmic Essence. It's the quality or characteristic of the All which you specialize in. There might be others who also specialize in that. We are all all qualities, but I perceive that we do specialize, for the fun of interacting that way and experiencing that.

Other Cosmic Essences might include truth, beauty, playfulness, order, wisdom, creativity, possibility, graciousness, love, chaos, movement, freedom, acceptance, honoring, and a lot more possibilities. The list is very very long.

So from what you say I'd take a guess that your Cosmic Essence is along the lines of intersection between wisdom and connecting. Wisdom FROM seeing connections. If this is true, that is something you are always doing, practically in every moment and in a thousand different ways, without even consciously trying. 

Or perhaps not Wisdom but Knowledge or Intelligence, from seeing connections or seeing patterns. Seeing them by seeing the quality of or gravity in the space between them, rather than seeing similarities of their elements. Which is a wondrously different way to spot connections; very rare, very helpful to people.

Anyway, my profile mentions I do Cosmic Essence readings, at a distance. It's partly from a questionnaire and partly intuitive, and the result is about 3 written pages. Let me know if you would like one. To me it's one of the most powerful tools of self-knowledge, of self-acceptance, and also of rapport with others!

So, continue your journey inside, coming up with many answers to Who Am I? Very interesting so far, huh?? You've evoked a lot of possibilities from me and from Trichronos and Tely and Irmeli.

Blessings, OM 

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

I think the axis point of this thread lays somewhere in what Irmeli was talking about, as she approached the topic of going “too much” into identifying with large and ecstatic places.

Irmeli, you wrote that you use the feelings of bliss on a subtle level to help you better approach your shadow. In a way that is what I am beginning to appreciate. Even these large spaces of universal identification are limited in some sense as you approach another person, with all their infinite potential, in the context of their developmental altitude.

But I believe what OM is saying is that even though it is true that we live in the context of others (many others!), and in that context our desires and wishes are no more important than any other's, we are still important and deserve to be treasured and loved.

Stepping into the arena of universal identification involves more than just “ME.”

Edward

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Edward: Even these large aspects of universal identification are limited in some sense as you aproach another person with all their infinite potential, in the context of their developmental altitude.

 We come to exist through relating to others, through our interactions with others. Our existence is possible only through that.  Who I perceive myself to be evolves through my relations and relating to others. Later this process can become internal. Then it includes  also internal relating to different aspects of myself, or even an internal dialogue between these aspects.  Our way of relating to others, and also to our mind, is  hence  very basic to our development and evolving, not the experiences of infinity in our meditations.

 I believe creating  grandiose interpretations of ourselves through our infinity experiences and attaching to them,  can actually do harm to how we relate to others and our mind. This can create stagnation in our development  through the stages, in spite of having access to even ‘universal  states’.

As I have explained in my earlier posts  the most important role of these advanced meditative states have to me is through their subtle energy component.  I infuse my heavy shadow energies and bodily sensations  with this light. I put them together. This I perceive to be truly healing. It increases my wellbeing in my body and in my mind palpably.

But probably you cannot use the light in this way, as long as you identify with the light and infinity. You have to be detached from it, for that energy to become something you can use in shadow work.

Self development is a gradual process of non identification. As long as I am something, I cannot use that something as a tool in my mind. Through self development more and more stuff becomes available to you as tools in your mind, as you not anymore identify with that stuff.

This process of nonidentification is gradual and involves many levels or stages. An important step in this process is to learn to take emotionally the position of the other. Only then a true dialogue with others  becomes possible. When you have this capacity you don’t anymore need to continuously control and manipulate others to make yourself to feel stable and safe. An even more  advanced level  means stopping to identify yourself with how others perceive you or expect you to be. This step brings great inner stability and autonomy. Then you can more peacefully rest in what you are, and accept yourself as you are. You can better learn to respect your own rhythms, tendencies and inclinations.

  I know this sounds awfully self-centered, and it is in a healthy way. In the wake of this healthy self-centeredness, you learn also letting others to be who they are. You can better respect their rights, their own space, as you can respect your own. Martyrdom does not anymore exist here, nor exploitation of others. Paradoxically you feel  also less loneliness and separation from others, even if you may spend actually a lot of time alone.

 This stage of acceptance, the feeling of being at home in your mind and body, does  not mean stopping  evolving.  Instead it means possibility for enhanced evolving, as you have got a stable ground to stand on.

 Edward: Stepping  into the arena of universal identification involves more than just “ME”.

 All of our existence and evolving always inevitably involves more than ourselves. Self development is a gradual unfolding of what has been embedded in my“I” ,to  available resources and tools in my mind. “I” is always the subject that perceives, and it hence cannot see itself  or the lenses through which it sees.

Irmeli
 

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

Irmeli, you said:

We come to exist through relating to others, through our interactions with others. Our existence is possible only through that.  Who I perceive myself to be evolves through my relations and relating to others. Later this process can become internal.

I thought about this earlier today: if it weren't for society and the people who surrounded me as I grew up, I would be very much an animal. I should remember to appreciate the uniqueness of my upbringing, and maybe learn to understand social clashes as in some respect a by-product of a far greater thing, which is the education of the human race.

I also feel that we agree on many things including the process of dis-identification. The part that trips me up is where small self and big Self interact.

Edward

Re: An Exagerated Sense of Self Importance

That what is ultimate to me, or the big Self, is something that is transcendental to me and my direct perception. It is something I may someways be interacting with having surrendered myself to the deep intelligence beyond life.Or maybe I'm just on the receiving end. I don't know for sure.
This surrender has had big implications on how and to what objectives I use my intelligence and mind.

Irmeli