Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

My blog post on popular new age movie The Secret has created a little bit of dialog here at Zaadz and was recently featured on Brian Johnson's blog, with a lot of comments.

I just wrote The Secret: Part Two, referencing Wilber's Pre/Trans fallacy, Gebser's stages and my assertion that the New Age represents a spiritual pathology rather than a stage of spiritual growth per se….

I thought some of you who have been following the threads lately might find this interesting and want to get in on the action here!

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hey Julian, just read your posts… but why don't you tell us what you really think, LOL

I think it's great that you're debunking new age magical thinking and the regressive tendencies of the green meme. But let's not become phobic of the power of intention just because New Age tries to hijack this concept. Here's my way of thinking about it:

New Age says “your thoughts create your reality”, and New Agers then believe that they can sit in their couch, think really hard about wanting a new car, and soon enough it will quaff into existence in their driveway. Ehhhh, no. It won't. That's purple v-meme (magenta) magical thinking and nothing else.

Using adult spirituality and integral thinking we can still honor “your thoughts create your reality” but only as a partial truth. Sure, it's very helpful to focus on what you want to create or achieve in your life. But as you go about your day, holding your intention in your mind, you must also take action! Action will produce results, not magical thinking. The power of thinking lies in that it will motivate you to take action, and help you be more confident in the actions you take. Asking your mind “how can this be done?” is also very helpful, because it will help tap your creativity. This might sound like orange meme self-help stuff, and in some ways it is. But the way to go is transcend and include, transcend and include, no?

Just wanting to make sure that we don't throw out any babies with the bathwater,

Pelle

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

agreed Pelle

creatively using the power of the mind is important.

perhaps you saw The Secret: Part Two above where i assert that the ideas being propogated amount to a pathology rather than an appropriate stage perspective.

the useful distinction here is that we do not “include” the pathology from the previous level - we heal, debunk and transcend it……

best
~j

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

“New Age says 'your thoughts create your reality', and New Agers then believe that they can sit in their couch, think really hard about wanting a new car, and soon enough it will quaff into existence in their driveway. Ehhhh, no. It won't. That's purple v-meme (magenta) magical thinking and nothing else.”

When I was first introduced to YCYOR (you create your own reality), there was a lot that appealed to me from a rational perspective.  It was the irrational application of the principles of attraction that had me leave that ideology behind.  To quote someone who used to post a lot on a board that I used to frequent:  “No matter how much YCYOR, you still have to get up off the couch and walk to the bathroom to poop!”  Now, maybe this is due to some deeply repressed association with being and the limitations of physical form.  Maybe there are people who don't ever have to poop.  I wish I could potty train my son that way;-)

When I left the YCYOR movement, it was because I had heard through those circles of this mysterious thing called enlightenment and transcending the ego.  The rational approach stayed with me.  I was willing to consider these things, and hold them up to the light of reason, then draw conclusions.  Along the way, I found Integral Naked and began to piece these things together.  There's still a loooong way to go, but from where I am, now, here's how it fits together for me.

It has to do with absolutist ideas that maybe, just maybe, transcend all of this just like some have reported from that “infinite” perspective.  Maharshi may or may not have been such a being with that kind of perspective (not that he can drive a jeep, but, you know…).  What did Maharshi encourage.  Inquire “Who am I?”

Well, YCYOR assumes there is a “you” of some kind.  Reasonable assumption (though apparently, from the perspective of someone like Maharshi, that is a myth!).  So, asking who is the “you” that creates the “reality,” and it would seem, from a (as opposed to the, right Arthuy?) non-dual perspective, “you” and “reality” are the same thing.  So, of course, that makes sense that YCYOR when Y and R are the same and they are the Kosmos.

When I think about YCYOR and apply it to the narcissistic body-mind, it makes no sense at all.  Yes, YCYOR but not how one might expect.  With the understanding that the “you” is much deeper than pre-rational consciousness is able to grasp, then it can actually be helpful to consider YCYOR from a higher developmental stage.  And it has to be higher than rational, because rational will still associate being with the body-mind, at least as far as one's center of gravity is concerned.

Soooo…If YCYOR is totally unappealing, then it might be that rational perspective is driving the bus.  If it is accepted without any reasonable consideration of it's limitations, then pre-rational is gonna poop it's pants sooner or later!  Time to buy a new couch and move up to more rational furnishings;-)  What seems to me to be a hallmark of trans-rational (aka vision logic) is the ability to see it in the context of a bigger picture, which may be that the “you” is much, much more expansive than either rational or pre-rational perspectives can see.  If my fleeting experiences with trans-personal experience is any indication, there is no limit, no boundary, to what it is that creates it's own reality.

Keith

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

yay, Keith!!!

Jane

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I saw “The Secret.” A friend who is prone to this magical thinking (her latest business venture just failed because she's so duped by this creating-your-reality crap) set it up for a group of us to see. Another friend and I sat in the back and laughed through the whole thing. Well, not the whole thing, as it's a bit much to swallow. We made it through most of it, but had to leave. Frankly, our laughing would have become disruptive.

I think it's mostly successful with people who are already successful, and who have a strong need to assuage their middle-to-upper-class guilt over having more, by being able to blame people for their own misfortune. It presents a quick and easy answer to the age old problem that Jesus addressed; there will always be poor.

Now! New and Improved! It's their own fault!

Liz

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

“Now! New and Improved! It's their own fault!”


Ahhh, the dark side of the force!  Inappropriate understanding of what may actually be wisdom can be used to the same end (arrested development, regression and repression of shadows, etc., etc.) in dualitic ways.  One can either inflate their own sense of self by assuming magical powers, or by relative association when deflating others.  When people inflate themselves, they hurt mostly themselves.  When they use this “wisdom” to try and indoctrinate others, it can be very damaging to those they think they are helping.

Grace and Grit provides a good example: “Why did you give yourself cancer?”

Pithy answer to passive agressive questioning like that: “Well, we are all One, so why did you give it to me?”

Keith

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Liz: “I saw “The Secret.” A friend who is prone to this magical thinking (her latest business venture just failed because she's so duped by this creating-your-reality crap) set it up for a group of us to see. Another friend and I sat in the back and laughed through the whole thing. Well, not the whole thing, as it's a bit much to swallow. We made it through most of it, but had to leave. Frankly, our laughing would have become disruptive.”

Yes, but it would make a good exercise for them: “Why did I create the reality of Liz and her friend laughing at this wonderful movie?”  Or perhaps they noticed that you left, no doubt as the result of the focused intention of the true believers  enjoying the film - and you thought you had free will.  Ha!.

I'm reminded of some Seth readers I've known or encountered; e.g. a woman who sincerely asked in a post why she created the reality of being raped, or a friend of a friend who asked someone dying of a terminal illness why they chose to manifest that reality. 

choosing my own spiral,
arthur

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Great blog, Julian!  “The Secret,” even without having seen it, has become something of a “litmus test” - as has “What the Bleep” - if people are gushing with enthusiasm about it I know right away that they are caught in the pathological expression of the green meme that you explicate so well in your kick-ass blog.  On a more postive note, enthusiastic reactions to “I (Heart) Huckabees” are a good sign that someone may be on my wavelength (thus demonstrating that my focused attention has successfully drawn them into my life).  “The Fountain” is another such, although interestingly I have encountered a few people who really liked that movie but who don't really get it at the deeper levels.  When asked what they like about it, they'll say something like “It was like a dream,” or talk about some of the surface storylines. 

spiral on,
arthur

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Does anyone remember that service that Saniel Bonder (a founding member of Integral Institute) and his wife offer, or used to offer?  It had “magic” in its name, and basically entailed praying to pictures of Saniel and his wife in order to “manifest” things in your life?  I had a post about this on the first IN forum, but alas, the archives for that forum are still inaccessible.  I also just did a quick search for Saniel's website for this service, and couldn't find it.

Perhaps they've taken it down….

I wanted to see if I could find it, to give Julian something fun to chew up!   :)

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

“Does anyone remember that service that Saniel Bonder (a founding member of Integral Institute) and his wife offer, or used to offer?  It had “magic” in its name, and basically entailed praying to pictures of Saniel and his wife in order to “manifest” things in your life?”

Don't remember that one.  Doesn't surprise me.  I really don't know what test one must pass to be among “the most spiritually advanced people on the planet.”  I believe that is how Ken describes those who are in the inner circle of the ISC gatherings.  Aren't Saniel and his wife among those folks?  Weird.

Keith

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I found it!  Sort of.  Saniel's business was called MatterMagic, and the site was www.mattermagic.com.  But if you look for it now, it has a note that it is no longer available.  So maybe they thought better of doing that kind of business.  If so, good for them.

Back when I wrote that post on IN, I tried to take a balanced pro-and-con perspective, but it was hard.  This stuff seems like magic snakeoil salesmanship, and it's better off not being associated with I-I (if I-I wants to have any traction in the post/modern world).

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Balder:  ” I found it!  Sort of.  Saniel's business was called MatterMagic, and the site was http://www.mattermagic.com/.  But if you look for it now, it has a note that it is no longer available.  So maybe they thought better of doing that kind of business.  If so, good for them.

“Back when I wrote that post on IN, I tried to take a balanced pro-and-con perspective, but it was hard.  This stuff seems like magic snakeoil salesmanship, and it's better off not being associated with I-I (if I-I wants to have any traction in the post/modern world).”

Bruce, out of curiousity, what do you (or anyone else reading this thread) think of the Q-Link and related technologies from Clarus Transphase Scientific?  Ken has endorsed this product, for example on the “Speaking of Everything” CD set, and the website refers to scientific research but the whole thing has a bit of a “snake-oil” feel to it, albeit a higher grade of snake oil.  :)

Full disclosure: I have a Q-link and although I haven't been wearing it for a while, when I do so it appears to make me feel/function a bit better.  :)

Here's a description from the Q-link website:

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Arthur. I have a Qlink, as well as a similar product from another company, but for the sake of simplicity let's stick to the Qlink.

Does it work? Well it definitely does something, and it's pretty powerful at what it does. I have no idea exactly how it works but it definitely interacts with subtle energies. Most of the time it's benificial, ie combats fatigue, enhances focusing, etc. But it can also be too “invasive” at times, helping induce a state that might not be what the body wants or needs at that point. Nobody would suggest receiving Reiki all day long, and though the Qlink certainly isn't Reiki, the parallell isn't entirely far-fetched either. I tend to use it in situations when I think it will be useful to me, but I don't wear it routinely any more. The most useful application is probably for people who are sensitive to DECT phones, wi-fi, cell phones or similar radio frequencies - here the Qlink does a swell job of preventing fatigue.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Thanks, Pelle.  I, too, have the subjective experience of the Q-Link helping me in the ways you describe.  However, I'm interested in the question of how we distinguish something like the Q-link (or the marketing associated with it) from the Bondariffic Matter Mesmerizer - or whatever it was called - Bruce referred to above.  Thoughts?

arthur

p.s. Here is a seven-minute excerpt from The Secret.  (I wanted a video segment, so I drew it into my life.  It's easy - ask me how!)

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I too had thought about publicly lambasting this horrific movie …but it just sickens me SO MUCH it's not worth the trouble. The culture of magical Narcissus is SO STROBG in that piece of shit … well, we watched it for about 7 minutes.

But here's why.

Basically, because a close relative of mine  … how do I put this? He needs REAL help. Pathology, yes. Worse when pathology (as you speak of it above) fuels pathological tendencies in others -and at a lovely $30 price tag - that is pretty serious, no?

The Secret! The Secret! The Secret! I seriously can't believe anyone buys this shit. However, it really irks me when it is the already weakened, who need real hope, real solutions … in fact, that's JUST how they start the movie “I was at the absolute lowest point of my life … .” It is unethical. So I have problems and actually AM at the lowest point of my life …

Further, then a couple of months into “The Secret” Yee HA! …here comes this person's damn near SUICIDAL BLOG … . (and when I say suicidal, I mean it seriously) …but still holding out hope for 'the secret” …

The producers of this movie should be shot.

All the way to the bank.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Dear Tim

My mom has been bugging me about my need to watch this movie. :) She just forwarded an email from a cousin of mine with whom I have been out of touch most of our lives raving about it. I also have a colleague in Australia who is smitten with it and has been trying to get all her colleagues (she's in charge of their tiny franchisee association) to watch it too.

My mom is a member of Unity church so this fits in nicely with her belief system.

What interests me in this and other modern phenomena is reflecting on why people are into it. Perhaps it's partly because many people are not critical thinkers and magic and superstition are just as rife today as they ever were, it's just that they are “manifested” to borrow the word :) differently today.

The kind of intellectual and spiritual rigour required to engage reality more and more continuously is not something that many are developing. Much more fun and much less pain to be entertained, mystified and drugged by media, addictive substances and lifestyles…


Namaste,

Nicole

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Arthur,

However, I'm interested in the question of how we distinguish something like the Q-link (or the marketing associated with it) from the Bondariffic Matter Mesmerizer - or whatever it was called - Bruce referred to above. Thoughts?

Good question. I guess if it's called the Bondariffic Matter Mesmerizer then that could be a clue ;)

On a more serious note I don't have a general formula for this. Personally I try to combine my intuition and my bullshit detector and usually it works well. Any sign of integral thinking in the marketing will be a big plus. I also monitor my state closely when I read about a product and usually that will tell me a lot about its efficiency. Maybe one could do kinesiological testing, a la David Hawkings, to formalize what your state tells you - unless people think that is magenta stuff as well. Doing a Google search such as “problems Qlink” or “side effects Qlink” or whatever the product is, goes without saying. Money back guarantee is also a good thing.

Pelle

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hi, Pelle.

I noticed you reference David Hawkins in your post, so now I have to out myself.  I love his work.  Not the thread to go into it in detail here, though I'd love to get an integral discussion of it going.  In Integral Spirituality, Wilber mentioned the first in the six book series, Power vs. Force.  It's the most popular/well-known but not the best.  More of a primer.  I am currently reading his latest book titled Discovery of the Presence of God.  Last night I read a chapter called “Clarifications,” and there was so much that could be thrown into this whole series of threads.  I kept reading and noticing, “that would be a good bit to post….and that….and that.”  There might have been a paragraph or two that would have been inches off the mark, but the rest was dead-on.  If anybody is interested in Hawkins and this thread series (myth, pre-trans, siddhis, buddha killing, enlightenment, adi da, etc.), I highly recommend this chapter.  The book is really good, but this chapter is particularly good with respect to these conversations.

Keith

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Keith, I notice that the subtitle of Hawkins' Discovery of the Presence of God is “Devotional Nonduality.” I like the sound of that! Now I'll probably order it …

Thanks,
Mary

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hi, Arthur,

I hadn't heard of the QLink before, so I can't really say whether it is also a sleek version of snake oil.  Because it is purported to work on an energetic level, and has supposedly been tested in labs or whatever, I have less trouble with it than I do with a program which appears to me to be akin to selling indulgences, or the giving-to-get-rich schemes popular among televangelists.  Saniel's business MAY be authentic, but I am very skeptical of it, and think it plugs in to people at the same level that The Secret does.  Which is why I mentioned it.  Except that it is even less empowering than The Secret, because it asks you to rely on others to do the “manifesting” for you.

Best wishes,

B.

P.S.  The program is called “Matter Magic” – which is a little better than the Bonderific Matter Mesmerizer … but not much!

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

The thing about “The Secret” (along with what I said before) is that I am just flabbergasted that anyone would so seriously fall for this! Liz mentioned laughing through it … I felt the same; it's laughable.

At least with a What the Bleep idea (which I haven't seen btw) you mix in a cool incomprehensible thing like quantum physics, you know, to really foster a grand illusion (since 99.99999% of the population is unable to even understand quantum physics), but this thing,  this movie is so contrived from the get go …so formula … so overly-dramatized … (They actually show a guy sitting by a tree with special effects of golden waves flying out of his head to tell the universe what he wants … .)

Again, I just stand with my jaw dropped at how many people have gone and are going wacko over it. That really says something about areas of our current cultural psychology. I knew it was bad … but not this bad!

It is 110% nothing other than wish fulfillment or wishful thinking. The mentality is the level of Barney … Put the two shows together, side by side and the only difference is one had kids, the other adults. (Oh, and Barney is healthy for 1-3 year olds!)

And grown adults are falling for it.

It's just plain shocking …

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

One thing I find highly unethical about this type of movie (disclaimer: still haven't seen it), is the “experts” who are in it. Now the experts themselves are highly successful, no doubt about it. And to reach that level of success there is a high probability that they've got at least a teal level of cognition, enabling them to apply systems thinking to their businesses. So if they really want to empower people, they should tell them the whole truth about their success, maybe something like this: I have developed great business skills (LR), I know how to effectively cooperate with people who can help me (LL), I keep my body in good shape to have enough energy on a daily basis (UR)…. and finally, I do ask the universe for support, maybe I even write down what my next intention or goal is, and I do believe that I can reach my goals if I put my mind to it (UL).

The real challenge would be to shoot a movie that is truly educational, but still entertaining and most of all inspiring to people.

Maybe real world messages are boring, e g Do your ILP, suffer at a higher level.

Pelle

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I noticed Michael Beckwith (a Christian / New Thought minister) in that video clip of “The Secret.” He's been interviewed on Integral Naked, and I've heard a couple of other presentations of his, which I thought were great. But that video clip of the movie doesn't draw my interest at all. I wonder if – as was the case with “What the Bleep,” some experts are incorporated in ways that they may not appreciate …

This is a bit off-topic, but I feel like mentioning it since this is a thread on New Age. At a grocery store today I noticed a brand new section in the wine and soft-drinks aisle: “New Age Drinks.” This includes stuff like electrolyte-supplemented water (a product known as “Smart Water”), various vitamin waters, SOBE, Arizona Ice Teas …

I guess it made me look, eh?

Mary

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Don't forget Pimpjuice.

That made me look.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Was that right next to Hojuice?

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Ahem.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I have lost a couple posts trying to respond to this Secret movie thread and now it appears that we are off on a tangent about various questionable, new age, bodily fluids.  Thank you, Ramsses for your “Ahem”…..

I am going to try again, this time on Word, before I attempt to post.

In Integral Spirituality Ken says,  “It is through our history that we know ourselves.”   The idea that things manifest themselves, pa-ding, out of the universe is both true and not true.  I remember once watching a slide show of a person who had been cross country skiing to the north pole, and he showed a slide of a musk ox, and told a story of how this animal had suddenly chased after them one day.  I was thinking how surprising a musk ox is out on the arctic tundra, hairy and big and bulky, out in the middle of nowhere, what a strange and powerful spirit to spin itself into existence and then persist in such an inhospitable climate.  Who would have imagined!  I also remember reading about the fish that live in the desert in some dessicated form, and then when the seven year rains come, they rehydrate, copulate like mad, and then dry up again.  What a life!

I have had moments that have struck me as completely odd.  One time on a canoe trip, a hundred miles from Happy Valley,  I was crouching over a log looking at the tiniest red spider crawling on the caribou moss when there was a loud high pitch sound ringing in my ears followed by several tons of steel barreling directly above me 15 feet above the tree line…a low level jet, two people inside, 30 feet away from me, and still  as far away from me and the tiny red spider as if  they were from another world.  Another time, I remember cleaning a partridge that my friend had given me out on the ice in the spring.  The partridge's crop was filled with red berries and spruce needles.  I looked at the red blood, the dark meat, the white feathers, and was struck with a deep awe of how spruce needles and red berries could be reorganized, through the DNA of a partridge, into, well, a partridge.  In exactly the same way, we are what we eat, selectively reorganized and set into motion….in a dance that began at the beginning of this time sequence of this universe.

‘It is by our history that we know ourselves.'  I think when we send an intention into the universe, the universe does respond.  Not necessarily in our time, or how we might expect, but I believe it does respond.  And look how it responds!!  Especially lately, in the wake of modernity and the scientific revolution and the reorganization of our lives around petrochemicals and information technology:

The narcissistic, fantasy, pleasure-seeking desires that are put out into the universe have largely been answered.  We have large industrial shops spewing any amount of pollutants into our environment, destroying the natural world, ‘turning our wonder world into a waste world', merely at the service of these very desires. The universe produces the many products that satisfy the whims and wishes of the wishers, and further, even produce a vicious multiplication of  the whims and wishes themselves.  There are a lot of things that blow me away about modernity.  We now can have food from any place on the earth by simply trotting down to the 24hour open super market. (er, uh, well not here in North West River though). We can travel anywhere in the world in a matter of not much more than a day.  We can create amazing movies that feed our imaginations. We can now record any number of moments in order to relive our lives, millions of pictures, messages that will travel in an instant around the world…… It seems to me that the whole emergence of modernity is a plethora of “response”  The universe is giving us what we ask for.  Indeed, this little earth has been martyring herself, loving until her arms break, better than Santa, trying to answer those wishes.  

“It is through our history that we know ourselves.”  Even here at the remote end of the road in North Eastern North America, if I intend to get a new bag of coffee beans, I can send a credit card number over a electronic device of some sort, wait a week or so, and go pick up my parcel at the post office.  There is some kind of energy exchange, where an accounting and economic system keeps track of activity.  When I want to make an exchange of energy credits for coffee beans, I initiate a transaction.

 Now what has been left out of this equation is the HISTORY.  My history, what I do to participate in the economy to earn credits, the history of the coffee beans, where they were grown, what worker picked them, whether he/she is paid a living wage, whether his/her children have food in their bellies…..and more, where did the computers come from that keep the exchange systems afloat and the telephone/email exchanges viable, what sweat shop did the computers get made in, what about those workers. Then there is always the wear and tear on the earth from coffee  bean farming, the greenhouses emitted in the process of flying my coffee beans to me….well, all of this and much more is part of the Secret unaccounted for part of the Secret Formula.  Unfortunately, in a movie like the Secret, the spontaneous fulfillment of desire is not connected to the ‘cause and effect' reality, the consequences, indeed, the karma if you prefer, that are generated by having these products ‘pop' up out of thin air.  Alas, this would appear to be the snag in the wire, the ‘fly in the ointment'.  And now, not so secretly, the chickens are indeed, coming home to roost.   There are the social justice issues to be addressed within this history.  As well, the environmental degradation of our planet keeps a pretty accurate accounting of our behaviour of spontaneous wish fulfillment.  To the extent that we live in denial of our connection to this history of consequences, well, I would say this story will make up the material for the next 100 episodes of the ‘Secret'.  These are the  episodes that we are leaving to our children. That this earth gives us what we want is not surprising.  It seems to me that this is what this earth has always done. That we are generally such small-minded, selfish, wasteful,  blinkered goofballs, well, this is another story. Indeed, with all the information we now have there is no excuse for it!

As Thomas Berry writes: ‘the desolation of the earth will be the future of the human.'

There is that Chinese proverb, ‘Be care full what you wish for.'

Or there is the story of King Midas.

The warnings are embedded in our folk lore, literally, in our mythologies.. It is up to us to heed them. We can do better than we are doing now. We have to.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Jane: “I have lost a couple posts trying to respond to this Secret movie thread and now it appears that we are off on a tangent about various questionable, new age, bodily fluids. Thank you, Ramsses for your “Ahem…”

Excellent cranky schoolmarm imitation, Jane. And who knew all we had to do was “disappear” a few of your posts?! Bwahaha!

No doubt Arthur will approve of you bringing us back on topic. Of course, now someone has to start a New Age Body Fluids thread to compensate.

Seriously, when I saw the drink called “Zen”, I knew we were all in trouble. I don’t see that as off-topic. It’s a symptom of this boomeritis disease we’re all dealing with. I mean, this spiritual path shit is serious fucking business, dammit.

Liz

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Now I remember. The wholistic healer I went to a while ago loaned me The Secret and said it was the most amazing, lifechanging thing he had ever seen. Trouble was, I couldn't be bothered to watch it. He gave me a great treatment (over two hours long), and one of a long list of health foods he recommended turned out to be the most amazing, lifechanging thing I have ever eaten: maca. Take two heaping tablespoons in a smoothie with spirulina, bee pollen, fruit, grain milk and maple syrup twice a day. Killer. It's so potent my wife thought she was going to die. I'm serious. She can't eat the stuff. I had to take her to Emergency one night at 1:00 a.m., and then again to another urgent doctor's appointment a couple of days later before she finally figured out what was making her so dizzy she thought she was about to have a brain seizure.

I got good results from my Q-Link and now I don't notice anything from it. Same with the Circles of Life pouch. Try a navaratna: http://astrogems.com

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I haven't seen « the secret », just it's trailer a few months ago on the internet. I felt it was appalling. Anyway

Here are some thoughts about magical thinking.

Magical thinking can be described as the fear or the wish that what one thinks will materialize. This can be seen in adults in OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). For example, a person with OCD might have the thought “he will be killed”. This thought springs up spontaneously without the person wishing for it. This is called an intrusive thought. The person with OCD then may try to do some rituals to neutralize the materialization of the thought.

We, as children can remember this process. I used to have to pass by a tree before finishing counting to ten, otherwise something wrong would happen to my family.

Psychoanalysts have dwelt on the subject and the possible hidden wish that those thoughts contain. But that is not the focus of this post.

This relationship to the thinking process is called “magical” and is found at pre-rationnal stages of development.

At a rational stage, the relationship of the individual towards his thinking process changes. He experiments that he can think good thoughts or bad thoughts and that they won't “really happen”. There appears an independence of the thought process and the accidental world.

In the spiritual realm, the power of thought is a concept that is often taken into account. Julian, on his blog about the movie “The secret” gives his point of view on the matter extensively, from, what it seems to me, to be a rational point of view.

If a rational point of view states that thoughts are inoffensive, we can also say that some rational points of view state the opposite: thoughts are powerful “reality creators”.

How?

Cognitive-behavioral therapy, which is as rational as it gets, makes a hunt for thoughts and deeper thought structures called cognitive patterns, as it is obvious that our thoughts will define some emotions which will prompt, in due course some behaviour. Behaviours will elicit definite responses from our environment, which will sometimes confirm our thoughts. Piaget called this phenomenon “adaptation”, in opposition to “assimilation”, which is a change in our cognitive patterns.

So how are thoughts rationally so powerful?

For example: a shy person may have some thoughts like: “people think I'm not interesting, ugly, too fat.”. These thoughts will prompt emotions like anxiety and withdrawal, and hyper vigilance: the person will look for signs in other people which confirms his thoughts. This person will act shy in society, don't look in the eyes, blush, or shake. This person will look at people with a strange attitude, and other people will feel uneasy. The person will then think: “they look at me in a strange way…My thoughts are right, they think I'm too…”

This kind of pattern will then lead the person to isolation and painful emotions. We now that emotions are linked with the hormonal system and that stress, anxiety, sadness, and anger will tend in various ways to diminish the body's immunitary capacities.

After a heart problem, people with high anxiety and who live in isolation have 50% more chances to have another heart problem, than people who laugh and have a good social network.

So we see here, that a rational point of view sustain the theory of the effects of thoughts on the body and on the apprehension of what we call “reality”.

On one side rational says that thoughts have no effect on reality and on another it states that it does! What is the difference between the two?

Well, this is not an easy distinction and I'll be glad to hear what you all think about it.

Here are some of my ideas:

• - magical thinking is supposed to work instantly: “if I think that X will die, this will happen now”. On the contrary the rational point of view about the power of thoughts works on a long term: it is not one thought that will create problems, but a stable thinking pattern which on the long term, will affect the body.
• - Magical thinking is a process were the person is totally identified with the thinking process, in an ego-centered way as Piaget called it. On the opposite, the rational point of view about the power of thoughts asks for a little disidentification with the thought process.
• - Magical thinking bypasses the body and actions: “I think about it, and it happens”. Rational power thinking takes into account our emotions and our actions. I think about it, and it makes me act a certain way…hence a construction by action/reaction of a reality with my environment.

Now what is the trans-rational point of view of the power of thoughts? I don't know, but I guess it will involve:

• - less and less identification with the thought process
• - a change of temporality (from linear to circular?)

So is it wrong to say that you can create reality with your thoughts? Well… I think that even rational points of view would admit this point. But the distinction between magical and rational power thinking is subtle.

I would love to hear what you have to say about this.

Patrick

Patrick

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hi Patrick,

I really value and appreciate your analysis — and also like how your post could belong equally on the Pre/Trans and the Siddhis threads!

At the end you say:

Now what is the trans-rational point of view of the power of thoughts? I don't know, but I guess it will involve:

• - less and less identification with the thought process
• - a change of temporality (from linear to circular?)

• acknowledging at the beginning that one is on a path of development, and that this path is something one can rely on to further ones development, and that this practice is part of that path
• acknowledging and affirming that ones intention for doing the practice is for the benefit of all sentient beings.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Thanks Ma rig pa for your post.

I know this practice, although I do it from a different tradition. I end it up by seeing the “divinity” which is outside, on the inside, in my heart. Then I become very small and I dissolve in the divinity in my heart, or my heart expands and the divinity takes the whole picture. From there, I step into meditation.

If I may add something: this practice will bring you into a certain state, in the Wilberian sense, but it does not give us information of a trans-rational stage.

This leads me to different questions, which shouldn't really be posted here.
- the difference of such practice as you described and Vipassana practices —> do they lead to different stages? Do they lead do different apprehension of the thought process?

Patrick

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hi Patrick,

You said:

If I may add something: this practice will bring you into a certain state, in the Wilberian sense, but it does not give us information of a trans-rational stage.

I agree that if we're doing this just as a visualisation, using the mind, albeit with a good intention, then it will bring us to a certain state … I'm not sure at what level this kind of state would be located.

However, if we are in non-dual awareness, even if it isn't a permanent stage development, we are at least in a transrational state, and whatever the deph of that state is, it surely must be informed by the transrational (stage) … wouldn't you agree?

So how might we get a sense of this “information” that we may be receiving, or be present to without necessarily understanding what it is we're present to?

I think the clues are in the immediacy of the presence … its freshness, limpidity, clarity … all the senses being wide open, unobstructed … the awareness being unbounded, extending in all directions without limit, receiving and containing seemingly everything … and not identifying with anything …

This leads me to different questions, which shouldn't really be posted here.
- the difference of such practice as you described and Vipassana practices —> do they lead to different stages? Do they lead do different apprehension of the thought process?

I'm not sure where these questions, or responses to them, should be posted … I guess it's down to Julian as the thread originator, or Arthur … I'm also not sure if I could answer them adequately, but could maybe have a stab at them … maybe it's best if I email you : )

All best

Lol

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

ma rig pa: “However, if we are in non-dual awareness, even if it isn't a permanent stage development, we are at least in a transrational state, and whatever the deph of that state is, it surely must be informed by the transrational (stage) … wouldn't you agree?”

Wait a minute - isn't this apples and oranges?  Rationality is not a state-experience, it's a stage of cognitive development.  If we have a non-dual state experience and we're developed at least to the rational stage of cognitive development, then we could experience it - or interpret it afterwards - in rational terms.  Similarly if we are developed to transrational cognitive stages, we could experience/interpret it in transrational terms.  But if we are still at a pre-rational stage of development, then we could neither experience nor interpret the nondual state in rational or transrational terms. 

Nevertheless, we could experience a non-rational state at any stage of development.

Or so it seems to me.  :)

spiral out,
arthur

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hi Arthur,

Thank you for distinguishing stages and states so succinctly ….. I can't argue with your / our Ken's rationale … yet : ) … and for that reason I'm very happy to hold it in the ever forward-moving upward-spiralling pending tray …

I've just got my copy of Integral Spirituality, so I thought I'd better read about the Wilber-Combs Lattice before I attempted to say what I'm going to say next.

82 hours later …

You see, I'm not entirely convinced by it, and wasn't when I read our Ken explaining it in WIE's “God's Playing a New Game”. But I'm also aware I haven't read enough around the subject … there are always so many extras in the chapter notes and the appendices that I recall others bringing up before, but which I can't remember clearly … or don't know where to look for them …

So, a question I have that is open to any integral theorist reading this to answer … is … is it the case that integral theory has it that 2000ish years ago an individual couldn't actualise the highest of the levels, structures, stages while/because 99.99% of the world's LL and LR were still at (would it be?) Mythic?

I guess a follow-on question is (and taking into account the prevailing view that there are always individuals at the evolutionary leading edge who may be a level or two ahead of the rest) … is an individual's tetra-enaction limited in any way by the prevailing world order AQAL matrix? (if that's a lousily worded question I apologise and hope you know what I mean.)

You see, I don't buy it that the Buddha's non-dual realisation was interpreted to himself from or at a prerational perspective, or a rational perspective, or a higher vision-logic perspective … and so on … if that's what is being suggested with all this “the difference between horizontal and vertical types of *enlightenment*” theorizing.

The Buddha, or so the story goes, was simply unable to teach anyone anything about what he'd 'realised', and for a period of time just didn't teach. Then he started to teach something that could be understood by the people of that time, first the Four Noble Truths, then other things according to people's differing capacities and propensities. And within this he did find ways to convey his deeper understanding within the context(s) of these differing capacities.

But to get back to your post, Arthur. You said:

If we have a non-dual state experience and we're developed at least to the rational stage of cognitive development, then we could experience it - or interpret it afterwards - in rational terms.

If by “.. then we could experience it … in rational terms...” you mean while we're in the non-duaI state, then I completely disagree with you, simply because either one's in it or one isn't, and it is beyond, beyond, beyond the rational mindset … if however you mean we could try and interpret our 'experience' afterwards in rational terms, I do agree.

Speaking personally, I might try and describe a non-dual state 'experience' in rational terms … or allude to it using, for example, a symbol like the mirror.  But the truth is it is really uninterpretable and indescribable … so it's not possible for me, for example, to truly interpret it to myself from ”the rational stage of cognitive development”. 

And the point surely isn't about having a peak experience then 'interpreting' it afterwards … the whole point surely is about developing and deepening this non-dual state, if one can, in optimal situations (if that be sitting on a cushion in a quiet room with minimal distractions) and then practising continuing in that state as much as possible in the ordinary-life situations of moving the body, using the voice, and using the mind … in other words integrating ones ordinary life as much as possible into this state one is developing, without even thinking about interpreting it … or without it automatically being interpreted or coloured by whatever stage one is at.

And in the non-dual state thoughts and awarenesses naturally come and go, sometimes distracting, but not necessarily … in any case one can simply rediscover 'it' and return to 'it'… so … one can have an awareness that this 'state' is just so totally pregnant with what is beyond ones ken … it's all there … or at least if we can relate to a 'felt sense of being', then we can relate to a felt sense of it all being there.

I remember a Lama talking about meditation and the non-dual …. he gave the example of the sun and the sun's rays …. our meditation may be analogous to us feeling the warmth of the sun's rays …. all we have to do is follow the rays back to the sun.

I see it that way with non-dual awareness, we enter into it and remain in it as much and as often as we can … and rather than our relationship to it being dependent on whatever level we might be at, the more we're in it the more our capacity and clarity will naturally deepen and develop.

These are my mutterings and mumblings on the subject.

Best wishes,

Lol

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

“If by '.. then we could experience it … in rational terms...' you mean while we're in the non-duaI state, then I completely disagree with you, simply because either one's in it or one isn't, and it is beyond, beyond, beyond the rational mindset … if however you mean we could try and interpret our 'experience' afterwards in rational terms, I do agree.”

I would take Lol's analysis further, and say not only that it's beyond rational while in the experience, but even if one were at a rational stage of development, they still would necessarily be unable to experience anything other than a rationalization of that non-dual state and not the state itself.  It's no more an accurate representation of the non-dual state than a trans-rational or mythic representation would be.  It's not it so it can't be an accurate representation of it.  For the rational view, that could just mean explaining it away as some epiphenomenon of brain chemistry.  Also, if one were at the non-dual stage, then they could also not experience that stage, as a permanent state, rationally, because it defies and is beyond rationality completely.  This, I assume, is why those who are supposed to have developed non-dual stage awareness describe it as ineffable.  There is no rational explaination.  In my view, which is, unfortunately, merely rational, it doesn't make sense to reduce non-dual awareness to that which can be described rationally and say that's the only way to make sense of it.  The point is there is no you to make sense of an it at that point.  There is awarness, but nobody to be aware.  There may even be some explanation, but nobody doing the explaining and nothing to explain.

My rational interpretation is that much of problem with what Wilber seems to imply, that is that previously realized buddhas can't be as enlightened as currently realized buddhas (I don't care who, just but primary example he uses is Gautama Buddha and the Jeep), it's a confusion of linear and non-linear views of reality.  When enlightenment is held to be oneness with all form that is arising right now, that is well and good, but it must be interpreted with an eye on non-linear arising, in which all creation throughout all time in all dimensions, infinitely, dizzyinglingly so, is Oneness.  History is included in that Oneness.  The future is included in that Oneness.  That Ken would be driving a Jeep is included in the Oneness that is arising in the mind of Gautama Buddha.  If Ken or me or anybody were one with all that is arising, they would be one with Gautama Buddha, all other buddhas throughout history, all future buddhas on this or other planets in other universes after other and infinitely other big bangs.  Oneness is Oneness.  And that's me on my rational soapbox;-)

Keith

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

“As to the effects … anecdotal reports they may be, but people do attribute a developing sense of altruistic love and compassion to doing this practice”

Not only is there anectodal evidence, but also EEG evidence that Tibetan Buddhist compassion meditation effects the brain.

Keith

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Wow … impressive … monks and researchers both … thanks Keith …

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Here's another interesting article on scientific research conducted with the cooperation of Tibetan monks, this time practicing tummo…

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I think you've about covered it.

Liz

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

repost from the jokes thread:

“Some say reality is an illusion, a dream. Others claim it is whatever can be objectively measured and verified. And some say we create reality with our thoughts, intentions and wishes. I wish those people were dead.” - Stuart Davis, Love Has No Opposite, chapter one

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Bwahaha ….. for a moment I thought it might have been a riposte from the jokes thread …

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Here is brilliant and clear Robert Augustus Masters writing on this topic(even if unbeknownst to himself)….

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I find that I can read pretty much anything Robert writes, over and over again, and get new meaning every time. Thanks.

Liz

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

excellente post. Something that I been really needing to investigate further.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Another spot-on article by RAM.

The forth and second last paragraphs are perfect summaries of how to avoid throwing any babies out with the bathwater, while still getting rid of all the water. Sweet.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Oh and thanks Jane for posting it.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Julian has posted on his blog the antidote to the Secret.  I agree with him, but better yet perhaps, watch Little Miss Sunshine! 

And Mascha, I see you over on the other thread emerging from under your rock, and floating around over the roof tops like Mary Poppins.  What are we to make of that, you little rascal!

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hey everyone,

I had a dream last night (this morning) where the same, very weird (slightly fat, bald, gaps in his teeth) guy appeared twice throughout the “narrative” and it turned out he was an active member of one of the genius IQ organizations and it was revealed that he (and some of his IQ buddies) conceived The Secret … part of the “revelation” at that moment in the dream was that he was extremely IQ smart, but slightly maniacal otherwise (i.e. low development in social lines, etc.)

Is this true? Did my dream unlock The Secret's secret? That's what it seemed like.

At any rate, I thought it would at least be funny  …

(Beware slightly fat, bald IQ guys showing up at strange susrprise birthday parties … although I guess that goes without saying …)

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Hey, did anybody look at the blog list (arranged by altitude) in the February 2007 Holons?  They list two for the Turquoise level; the second one seems pretty cool, but the first one (Steve Pavlina's Personal Development blog) seems highly dubious to me -  the current entry starts out this way:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I’m delighted to present this exclusive interview with James Ray, President and CEO of the multi-million dollar corporation James Ray International and cast member of the increasingly popular movie The Secret.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you follow the link to The Secret, you'll find a gushy review by Steve Pavlina that culminates in an offer to sell you the Secret DVD at a discounted price, with FREE bonus materials thrown in. 

This does not look Turquoise to me.  Comments?

arthur

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Reposted from the Multiplex:

I believe Steve Pavlina has an integral cognition, as well as a lot of integral ideas, but that he sometimes becomes trapped in green value structures.

Recommending “The Secret” is obviously a mistake, and I think part of the reason he makes that mistake is that he tries to translate the ideas from the movie upwards into turquoise.

The following quotes from his website show that his way of thinking is far from the narcissism of green with a magenta underbelly:

So within a subjective belief system, are other people conscious like me too?

People are not conscious.  Only consciousness is conscious.  So in a sense, there are no other conscious people.  There is only one consciousness, and all the people you perceive exist within it.  And that consciousness is who and what you are.  There's only one consciousness, so there's only one you.

……….

The reality is that you are indeed the only one who's conscious.  But that YOU who's conscious isn't your body-mind.  Your body-mind as well as all the other bodies you perceive exist within your consciousness.  There's only one consciousness, and that is your real identity.  Everything else exists within you.  That's why you perceive only one consciousness.  That's the only consciousness that exists.

Steve obviously needs AQAL as a framework to support his integral tendencies and stay clear from green :)

Pelle

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

ah yes i followed the pavlina excitement too and found his take quite in line with the regressive new age hoopla i have been critiquing - i don't actually think you can get behind this movie or it's one idea without being caught in the shadow side of green narcissism and magical thinking - it's by definition what it is all about!

hardly integral.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

I found a great article that sums up how I feel about The Secret; please check it out: Beyond The Secret.

arthur

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

G'day.
The Secret, no I haven't seen it and yes I will, when some kind soul gives me a free copy for my viewing pleasure (Now, there's a little secret right there. Be patient and view it for free)

I've noticed that a lot of the good folk here have openly laughed at it and dismissed the material out of hand, and from what I've seen and read  it would seem for good reason. 

However, I'd like to send my heart and love out to the unknowing, naive people who are getting drawn into what appears to be piss poor New Age garbage.  And speaking, from what I feel is my highest self, I'm suggesting that rather than openly laughing at the film and peering down our noses at the folk a little further down the Spiral, who are caught in its grasp, that perhaps we use this film as an opportunity to teach, guide and uplift these folk along to higher realizations.

I see this movie as a massive net that has been cast out capturing millions of people and opening a door, or flicking a switch in their way of thinking to something different, or bigger than where they were before the film was released.
I see it as a small awakening in the hearts and minds of these innocent people, even if their initial reason for embracing the film is because they want more riches in their lives, more money, more love, more of life as they see it from the level that they are currently on. Lets face it, it's only natural.

As I constantely remind myself, I too, along with all of us here started at Beige and have slowly climbed along through the colors over time, and as I reflect back on my own evolution I see and clearly remember the times I sought the easy path, the times I read books that told me to just sit on my arse and imagine that the Universe owed me a living and a good time. Which is just about where those good folk who are enraptured in the movie are about right now.

I'd like to remind myself and anyone here that might be interested, that these people are pure potential and are really quite close to some real spiritual awakening and consciousness. I'd also like to point out that there are some brilliant minds right here in this pod who have the ability, the knowledge and hopefully the love to offer a guiding hand and help this amazing amount of potential unfold.

Let's see, if one million souls get something out of this film and it triggers that light within them and they start to think just a little more about what life is about. That would be a good thing. 
 Now, let's say, 10% get really into it and start to feel an awakening in them, (as we all did when we were at that level, and we all were, without exception) that would equate to some 100,000 thousand souls moving up the Spiral. That is a massive gravitational shift in integral thinking and I'm thinking that would be a wonderful thing.

So, rather than slinging shit at the movie and the people who dig it I'm suggesting that we use the film as a platform to assist as many people as we possibly can to higher levels of thinking and understanding. Don't get caught up with the content of the film and judging it's worthiness, that's really only thinking small and petty thoughts. Integral thinking is much bigger than that, or it is in my eyes.

I've asked myself these questions. “How often in my own evolution has there been so many people open to new possibilities at one time?  How often has there been this many people willing to listen to anything to do with anything spiritual? How often will I get such a chance to maybe make some real change that will benefit us all?
Have you ever considered those questions?

Strike while the iron is hot.

All the best,
Guest.  

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Thank you guest - you said that a lot better than me, but my point all along, regarding this movie, is that YES!  people are paying attention to these things.

Re: Integral Theory and The New Age: The Secret Movie

Guest,

Very interesting post.  It made me think in a way I had not previously entertained.  You're not such a difficult prick after all.

You said, “I've asked myself these questions. “How often in my own evolution has there been so many people open to new possibilities at one time?  How often has there been this many people willing to listen to anything to do with anything spiritual? How often will I get such a chance to maybe make some real change that will benefit us all?
Have you ever considered those questions?

Yes, a very simple and elegant perspective indeed.

best,
Michael