Gaia: The Integral Pod - Water Cooler - There's Something About Andrew

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://durwinfoster.gaia.com — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 23:19:42 GMT

Re: ongoing Andrew controversy that I seem weirdly attracted to...probably part of my own push/pull resistance to deeper unfolding...my understanding is that Ken invited Andrew to be a part of ISC but Andrew declined the invitation. From a good source, as far as I can tell.
Anyway, I am sticking with Ken and ISC as a "middle path" for integral.

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://worldwidehappiness.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 00:53:53 GMT

Holden and Liz,

Pelle mentioned Wilber-4 and Wilber-5 and I wrote on that on Feb 20:

"Sufficient discussion about theories should take place prior to publishing. Ken Wilber isn't even clear on the fundamentals. For example...

1. He wrote that we create our own reality - that is a huge statement requiring lots of evidence - and now you say he's changed his mind.

2. He clearly believes in spirituality, which is a mere societal artefact.

3. Regarding ego, he said that Andrew Cohen "is here to tear you into approximately a thousand pieces..." and "Rude Boys... will fry your ego before you knew what hit it..." but now you say, "Wilber is very clear about the distinction between self-transcendence and "ego death" - and is also very clear that the latter is impossible."

Conclusion? Changing his belief about whether we create reality, believing in spirituality, and mixing up his definition of, and the significance of, ego are all fundamentals, so if he hasn't even got them in place, how can he publish?"

The point I was making that his fundamentals were off and he still hasn't straightened them out. I also made the point that he unquestioningly believes in Indian spirituality to the point of labelling himself with an Indian term i.e. "pandit."

Balder, Now that the thread has continued after the photograph of Andrew Cohen, I want to publicly state what I wrote to you in my email: Thanks for saying I'm grandiose and unrealistic. I like the honesty. It helps me get objectivity.

Disciples of Andrew Cohen, Look back over this thread and see how many questions you failed to answer. What happened to Andrew's Tenet "Face everything and avoid nothing?"

Martin Gifford.

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Sun, 04 Mar 2007 17:14:12 GMT

Yeah, I know that's not what you meant to say.

And, we can feel dirty together.

rick

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Sun, 04 Mar 2007 02:53:27 GMT

"I don't however agree with the logic that a person shouldn't be criticized because no one else is attempting to do what their doing." Sigh. That's not what I said. But I get the gist of your post. This is all horribly off-topic. I feel dirty...

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Sun, 04 Mar 2007 01:44:30 GMT

Liz, you are right.

It is relative truth that Ken writes about, and he's one of the few writers out there attempting to outline ultimate truth in a relative way. He started writing too early though; in a relative sense not an ultimate sense.
I once asked a monk heading up an English dharma group at a Mahayana temple if I should say anything at all, becasue I noticed that my life was defined by a series of complete certaintiies, followed by complete not knowing and then certainty again. If I have been wrong so often in the past, how can I say that now I know any truth at all? I asked her. Therefore, should I say anything?
She told me that I had to say something, or else people that knew nothing would have no hope. In a relative sense, then I might be wrong, but perhaps I'm less wrong than someone that could benifit by at least getting to that point, was her point.
Or to quote Roshi Katagiri, "You have to say something, or else no one will know anything."

I don't however agree with the logic that a person shouldn't be criticized because no one else is attempting to do what their doing. It could be said that what Ken is doing is completely unnecessary, and no one else should attempt it. I'm not saying that, but it could be said. Sounds too much like a love it or leave it kind of argument. I can't write a poem to save my life, but that doesn't mean that I can't say a poem sucks. In a completely relative way of course.
Ken is one of the smartest humans around as far as I'm concerned.

All that being said, the dialogue was funny, and I would like to see a play written like that. I should have just said it was funny and left it at that. The rest was unnecessary commentary.

rick

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:37:19 GMT

"It makes me think that Ken started writing too early."

Psshhht!

What kind of twisted logic is that? You can never get to the truth, so you can never even start trying? Huh? By allowing his theories to evolve and be influenced by others, KW has fully embraced the knowledge that there is only partial truth in the relative world. To somehow use this as an argument against his work is silly. It's like calling someone a flip-flopper when he changes his mind. To go through life without growing and changing is a complete waste of an incarnation.

This is not to say there's notighing to criticize about Wilber's theories. It of course needs to be criticized contructively and thoroughly. But attacking the man personally is childish. To throw out his map itself requires that you have a better map to put in its place, and I don't see anyone proposing anything like that ,anywhere.

Liz

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:22:03 GMT

"Ken: It's okay to change your mind. Call your new philosophy “Andrew 2”. You'll look progressive. Keep one step ahead of your fans. Hell, I'm already up to “Wilber 5”. No one notices."

You need to write a play! This is good stuff!

It reminds me of the relative nature of scientific understanding. We know that many of today's scientific truths will be replaced tomorrow with better truths, which means that they are relative and therefore not truth. Truth doesn't change, it's the only thing that doesn't.
It makes me think that Ken started writing too early.

rick

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://arjan.gaia.com — Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:58:22 GMT

Ok Martin,
I do think there is something you are missing, I think it's very simple.
Ego is the result of one or more thoughts that you believe in. That's it. Now that is called knowing and having to give that up makes us feel afraid, very afraid; hence the 'dying' metaphor. (btw, actually giving that up now makes you ecstatically happy, it is only the postponement that is the problem but that postponement can obviously last lifetimes)

Someone who does not fundamentally base his or her life on thought, like Andrew, is perceived by people who do base their actions on though, as a threat.

If you refuse to give up your attachment to thought or to a particular though, you experience Andrew as your worst enemy and you want to destroy him, and that is exactly what those people on the blog you were mentioning are trying to do. It is all ego and I find that there is nothing good about it, sorry.

Warm regards

Arjan

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://arjan.gaia.com — Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:25:39 GMT

Thanks Balder,
That sounds really good, I want to tell you one thing that might help explain all those stories you've heard for 15 years, I and many others have found out that from the point of view of ego, Andrew looks like your worst enemy, it is not just a thought, it is really what you see. From the point of view of authentic self, he looks like your best friend, the warmest person. Ego distorts reality in such an extreme way that it is spooky sometimes right? Now I think that partly explains those stories and blogs, because, as I said, I have been around Andrew Cohen for 13 years and by the life of me, I cannot relate to what those people are writing.
I'll go check out the ego thread.
Arjan

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://brucealderman.gaia.com — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:12:11 GMT

Several of us have been talking about wanting to start a thread on the nature and role of the ego. I just started one:

Perspectives on the Ego

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://truthquest.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:38:16 GMT

hi guys. just saw this stuff. hilarious. thumbs up from all the ex-student spies!
S.N.

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://worldwidehappiness.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:22:32 GMT

Andrew: What's that on your scalp, Ken?

Ken: Oh, um, that's my artificial tanning lotion.

Andrew: Ooh, can I try it?

Ken: Sure. I made it myself. It's called "Integral Theory."

Andrew: Intriguing! I made my own too. It's called "Radical Transformative Impersonal Evolutionary Enlightenment."

Ken: Wow, that sounds intense.

Andrew: It is. I've come up with a new aftershave lotion too. Don't know what to call it. Here, smell under my armpits. I thought maybe "Tough Love"?

Ken: Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Let me think. "Rude Boy." Call it "Rude Boy."

Andrew: Perfect! My spiritual father had one without a name, so I called it "Liar."

Ken: Oooh, that's tough love alright. How's Ego going? Hi, Ego, good boy.

Ego: Ruff, ruff!

Andrew: I'm at my wit's end. Even tried grinding my stilettos into him. Keeps coming back for more.

Ken: He's loyal. Maybe you should include him. You could even kick him and include him at the same time.

Andrew: But I've already told my fanclub that Ego's got to go. What's a revolutionary movement without a scapegoat? I don't want to compromise...

Ken: It's okay to change your mind. Call your new philosophy "Andrew 2". You'll look progressive. Keep one step ahead of your fans. Hell, I'm already up to "Wilber 5". No one notices.

Andrew: Yeah! I just rehash the same old thing and call it my latest cutting edge theory, and everyone thinks it's a whole new direction.

Ken: When is the next issue of your honest, enquiring, cutting edge magazine coming out?

Andrew: Cleo? Next month. It's got the latest fashion tips for cutting edge heroes.

Ken: But they'll never catch up to us will they, honey?

Andrew: We are eternal role models for what is possible. Maybe we could include samples of Rude Boy.

Ken: Spray the pages, Andrew, spray the pages.

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:47:25 GMT

Balder: The “ego” written on the broken but virtually unkillable dog is the perfect, sidesplitting touch!

That was my favorite part, and felt perfect - but I didn't consciously think about the dog in that movie being broken but virtually unkillable - great point. :)

Glad you all liked it, it was fun - especially since I just came up with the idea and let Liz handle the rather vitally important technical details.

arthur

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://brucealderman.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:42:38 GMT

Well, thanks to you both! Brilliant. Totally politically incorrect. But funny all the same.

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:41:04 GMT

I have to admit, that was Arthur's idea. I just did the grunt work this time.

Liz

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://brucealderman.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:39:56 GMT

The "ego" written on the broken but virtually unkillable dog is the perfect, sidesplitting touch!

:)

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:36:25 GMT

Glad you guys liked it. :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o)

Liz

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://brucealderman.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:51:23 GMT

Bound to end it! And now we can all disperse and contribute more to Arthur's favorite and far more relevant thread topics: sex and drugs. ;-)

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://mqs.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:41:12 GMT

Veeeery lol funny Liz,

If that doesn't end it, nothing else will.

michael

Re: There's Something About Andrew

http://maryw.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:12:42 GMT

I'M TOTALLY ROFL-ing at that "Somthing About Andrew" image, you guys .... !!!!!